Two seasoned executive coaches, Carolyn Dolezal and Kate Leto, share candid insights on the realities of executive leadership and how to truly earn the trust and confidence of your team and stakeholders. They debunk common myths and explore how personal agendas can undermine leadership effectiveness, while offering practical advice for building influence even when the odds aren’t in your favor.
The conversation also covers how to recover from early leadership missteps and develop the skills needed to lead authentically at the highest levels. Whether you’re already in the C-suite or aspiring to get there, their expert guidance will transform your approach to leadership starting today.
Resources from this episode:
- Subscribe to The Product Manager newsletter
- Connect with Carolyn and Kate on LinkedIn
- Check out ASUG and Kate’s website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah Clark (00:01):
Most of us spend years climbing the corporate
ladder only to realizethat the keys to the corner
office don't necessarily comewith the keys to the hearts
and minds of your team.
So we brought together twoexecutive coaches who have seen
it all — Carolyn Dolezal, COOat Americas' SAP Users' Group,
and Kate Leto, who's coachsenior teams at JP Morgan Chase,
The Financial Times, and more.
(00:22):
They joined us for a candidpanel discussion about
the myths, realities, andchallenges of executive
leadership, and specificallythe ways leaders can gain the
confidence and trust of internaland external stakeholders.
You'll hear their unfilteredinsights on why your personal
agenda might be sabotagingyour C-suite team, how to
build influence when the oddsare stacked against you, and
the art of recovering fromearly leadership mistakes.
(00:43):
Whether you're already in theC-suite or making your way
there, these tactics will impactthe way you lead starting today.
Let's jump in.
Oh, by the way, we holdconversations like this
every week, so if thissounds interesting to
you, why not subscribe?
Okay.
Now let's jump in.
Without further ado, I'llintroduce our guests today.
So first up, we'vegot Carolyn Dolezal.
(01:05):
She is the COO at Americas'SAP Users' Group, or ASUG,
and an executive coachdedicated to developing
high performing leaders.
She's got a background inoperations and organizational
strategy, and she helpsteams scale sustainably
while empowering individualsto lead with clarity,
confidence, and impact.
So Carolyn, thank youfor joining us today.
Carolyn Dolezal (01:24):
Thank you.
Glad to be here.
Hannah Clark (01:26):
I'll toss a little jeopardy question to
you to get us acquainted.
Carolyn, as someone who'scoached execs and run ops
yourself at scale, youhave seen a few things.
What's something that'scommonly touted as a leadership
best practice that you thinkis, it maybe makes you roll
your eyes a little bit?
Carolyn Dolezal (01:41):
One of the ones I can think of, and it's
some advice that was givento me initially as I was
entering, is never let 'em seeyou sweat, lead with an iron
fist, and kind of goad peopleto their best performance.
I think there's some meritto setting high standards
and encouraging people to getto the best performance, but
acting like a field marshal,I don't think is effective.
Hannah Clark (02:00):
Great.
Thank you for joining us.
Next, we have Kate Leto.
Kate has been immersedin product management,
organizational design,and personal development
for 25 years, and she's anaccredited executive coach.
She's worked with senior teamsand individuals at JP Morgan
Chase, The Financial Times,Comic Relief, TUI, The Boeing
Company, Merck, and many more.
Kate, thank you for joining us.
Kate Leto (02:19):
Thank you.
Very happy to be here.
Hannah Clark (02:21):
So Kate, you've led some teams as
a product leader, and nowyou coach top execs across
many different industries.
So what's one belief aboutleadership that you have
held onto that coaching haschanged your perspective on?
Kate Leto (02:33):
Yeah, I'd say the biggest, strongest belief
that I had when I enteredmy first product leadership
role was that I had tohave all the answers right.
I had to know exactlywhat we needed to do.
I had to be able to fix anykind of challenge that my team
or the organization was walkinginto, but it was all on me.
I needed to be thehero, like every day.
(02:53):
And as a coach, I see howharmful that is not only on,
the individual who, if they'reactually trying to do that
is, is going to face somechallenges in wellness and
health and mentally as well.
Just being able to kindof power through, but
also to the organization.
Because if you've got,if you're this leader who
handles everyone's challengesand problems, you're
(03:15):
not letting people grow.
You're not letting peoplehandle their own challenges and
take on those for themselves.
So I'd say that's the biggestmind shift I've had going
from product leader to coach.
Hannah Clark (03:27):
So today's session, we'll be focusing
on managing stakeholderperception, how product leaders
build and lose influence.
We'll be talking about thistopic in three sections.
Section one will be the fact andfiction of executive leadership.
We'll go through some mythsversus reality and some
best practices in that way.
Then we'll focus in our secondsection on navigating external
stakeholder relationships.
Then on our final third section,we will talk about working
(03:50):
with internal stakeholders,which I'm sure is what
everyone is very focused on.
Then towards end, like Isaid, we'll be doing a Q&A.
And without further ado, ourfirst question under fact
and fiction of executiveleadership, what are the
most common, unintentionalmissteps that leaders make
as they transition into anexecutive leadership position?
Kate, did you wanna takethis one from the top?
Kate Leto (04:11):
Sure.
I think building off of whatI just was talking about
in terms of what I learnedpersonally going from being
a product leader to being anexecutive coach is this idea
that we have to as leader orexecutive or member of the
C-Suite, that we know it all.
And that we have to be able tosolve or that we can solve any
challenge that's coming our way.
I've seen it referred to,and I often use with my
(04:34):
clients the phrase strategicover functioning, right?
Like that we think that we needto be able to handle it all
and that we can handle it all.
So I think that's somethingthat continues to stand out as
a problem that we're dealingwith and the lead leaders as
we kinda step into these roles.
It's just that we put it onourselves to be able to take
(04:56):
charge and handle all of theproblems and come up with
all these great solutions.
And I think it just puts usas leaders into a very awkward
position from the get go.
So I say that's one of thebiggest missteps that I've seen.
Hannah Clark (05:08):
Carolyn, did you have anything you
wanted to build onto that?
Carolyn Dolezal (05:10):
I think as you enter into the leadership
role, it is a little bitas Kate was talking about.
It's not a performance,it's not performance art.
There's gotta be substance.
And then how do you buildyour substance quickly?
Because you don'tknow all these things.
You don't know all the answers.
What I found is useful is ifyou have a process through which
you're gonna gather informationabout customer needs,
(05:32):
stakeholder needs, staff needs.
Articulate your process.
Tell people how you'regoing to come into this.
You're not coming on inday one with a lot of
heavy pronouncements.
And then listen.
Listen really hard and reallyask those questions because you
want to be able to make smartdecisions and you can't do that
without data and information.
And the best way to getdata and information,
(05:52):
I have found is to ask.
Ask at various levels and askin various pockets of interest.
Hannah Clark (05:58):
Do you have anything to add, Kate?
Kate Leto (05:59):
Just one other thought that I had about
it is that, when we stepinto leadership roles,
we're often going to bemodeling the leadership
that we've seen before.
Be it, you know that ironfist often is what we have in
the back of our minds 'causeit's the way that we were
managed perhaps, and otherroles in other organizations.
What I've noticed is thatthere's this tendency to
just adopt that style, right?
(06:22):
And try to make it our own.
And as we do that, we kindlose our own authenticity.
We lose touch with who we areand our values and what our
skills really are and in manyways what got us to that role.
So I think that's anothercommon misstep, is that we're
not taught how to be a leaderand much, against kind of what
some kind of common conceptsare that I don't think we're
(06:45):
born, I don't think thereare many born leaders either.
I think it's somethingthat we learn and
something that we grow.
It's a developmental skill likeanything else but in, in kind
of the vacuum that we often stepinto as a new leader, or even
moving up kind of the corporateladder into the C-Suite.
We still don't really knowwhat we're doing, right?
(07:05):
We're making it up as we goalong, and we do have that
tendency to just grab ontowhat we've seen before and
what we've experienced before.
Instead of really takingthe time to have a good
understanding and build ourown self-awareness of okay,
who are we and how do I wannabring that into an organization
and build relationships withmy team, be it C-Suite team
members, or folks that are partof my team and my organization.
(07:29):
So I think that's somethingelse to be very aware of as,
we're stepping into it, be itour first leadership role or
much higher up that ladder is.
Unless we do take some timeto step back and think about
what kind of, what doesit mean to be a leader and
how do I wanna bring thatinto my work every day?
I think we do fall intothat vacuum of just grabbing
(07:51):
and adopting what we'veseen before, and I think
that's really dangerous.
Hannah Clark (07:54):
Good point.
And I think that leads reallywell into our next question
about pervasive and maybeunhelpful tropes about being
in the C-suite that might maybedissuade people from feeling
that they have a positionthere or that they would fit
with that kind of a culture.
Or that might be just settingpeople up for the wrong
expectations in the role.
So what would some of thosemore pervasive myths look like?
(08:15):
Carolyn, did youwanna take this one?
Carolyn Dolezal (08:17):
I think one of the ones that I know I
had thought was true and thenencountered is as your added
level in the organization, andyou look upward, my tendency
was to believe that these peoplewere in those roles because they
had things figured out and thealignment was there and this
is what we were aspiring to be.
And then sometimes even if themodeling of the behavior wasn't
exactly what I wanted, butthat leadership seemed great.
(08:38):
What I found when I actuallyentered the room is not
everybody in that room,even though we're called
the leadership team or theexecutive team, not everybody's
agenda and not everybody'sgoals are necessarily aligned.
And I assume that's establishedthere and then cascaded.
And that's how we, atour earlier levels,
understood what to do next.
But it caught me by surprise.
(08:59):
There are private gendas,there are functional agendas,
there are, real estategrab agendas that kind
of happen through things.
So just assuming that becauseyou're on the team that the
team has common interests issomething that you wanna examine
and test those assumptions,and it does come from the top.
And then likewise you foryour team, et cetera, to just
keep reinforcing that 'causethings do shift, things drift.
(09:21):
And then people are humans, theyhave their own agenda sometimes.
Not everybody is aligned eventhough you think they should be.
Hannah Clark (09:26):
Kate, did you wanna add on that?
Kate Leto (09:28):
To add on to that and to add on to what I was
saying just a minute ago aboutsome of the common missteps and
the fact that we, leadershipitself is something that we
learn through practice and welearn through trying to focus
on specific skills is thatit's we need to realize that
just because they're in theC-suite doesn't mean that the
personal development or thatleadership development stops,
(09:49):
or that the learning stops.
I think a lot of times wehave that kind of impression
in my, in our minds, thatthey're in the C-Suite.
They're the CTO orthe cmo, or the CEO.
They must know everythingthat they need to know, right?
They must be really goodat their jobs and they've
got it all up here.
To Carolyn's point that itdoesn't mean that the team is
aligned by any means, but italso doesn't mean that leader
(10:11):
should stop growing, right?
Or can stop growing.
That personal developmentcomes to a halt the minute
they step into the C-suite.
That's something that's reallyimportant as well, because just
because you're an executive,it doesn't mean you, you
do stop growing, doesn'tmean you do stop learning.
The best ones continue toevolve and continue to grow.
Carolyn Dolezal (10:30):
And I think toward that is
that, where do you as aleader get your feedback?
Are you getting feedback?
Are you listening with theintention of using that to
continue to improve and grow?
And I think what's sometimeschallenging is as you get to
the higher levels, is who?
Who will speak to thetruth to you, who dares
to speak the truth to you?
Depending on how theirexperience with leadership is.
(10:53):
I don't wanna tell 'em anythingthey don't already wanna hear.
That can be extremelydamaging to the organization.
So it takes trust, ittakes a willingness to
take that feedback in.
Listen, and if there'sa mistake or an error or
a shift, acknowledgingit, that can be really
powerful in an organization.
And the leader's gotta bewilling to take it on first.
And I think asking for feedbackversus hoping people wander in
(11:15):
and offer it because they mightdo it to their own detriment.
I think asking for feedback,listening carefully to it, and
then acknowledging it and thensaying to the organization,
you're gonna work on somethingreally holds you accountable.
And I think that Who are yourtruth tellers and make sure
that you access them often.
Kate Leto (11:30):
Yeah.
Building influence as anexecutive, I think one of
the best ways you do that,as Carolyn is saying is
asking for feedback, takingon board every other people's
opinions and perspectiveson, whatever it might be.
A new project, a new hire, anew strategy, a new direction,
and getting out into differentareas of the organization
and different levels.
Not just always going tothe person right below you
(11:53):
for that feedback, right?
Getting into the differentareas and different levels
of your organization to buildthose relationships and ensure
you're building that habit offeedback, of asking for feedback
and actually, acknowledgingit and taking it on board.
Yeah.
I think it goes back to thisidea that just because you're
an executive doesn't meanthat, that you don't, that
(12:13):
there's not areas to improve,there's not areas to grow,
and there's not areas thatyou can build relationships
to get some really goodfeedback to help you do that.
Hannah Clark (12:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I, I think when you havethose kinds of strong and
established relationships,then people really believe
and trust that you have theirbest interests at heart and
that you're representing,their voice in your decision,
it's strategic, but I thinkit's also, it's good business
and it's makes for a muchmore rewarding career when
you have that kind of a asmooth working relationship.
Kate Leto (12:40):
Yeah, it's, it's a sure way to grow influence for
yourself and to be that modelto others in the organization
on how they can do it too.
Hannah Clark (12:48):
We'll move then into our next section.
We shall be navigatingexternal stakeholders.
We'll move right into our nextquestion, which is, what are
the most important habits,policies, and conversations
that leaders should be havingand committing to if they wanna
build those solid relationshipswith external stakeholders?
I know we've just touched alittle bit on some of those
internal relationships.
Kate, what would you say aboutsome of the best practices for
(13:09):
external relationship building?
Kate Leto (13:11):
I think it's a lot of the same stuff as
internal relationship building.
One of the things that Italk to clients quite a bit
about is upfront, be it anew member of a team or a new
external stakeholder, is to getreally clear about what your
expectations are of each other,and actually make some committed
agreements around those.
And that could be anything fromhow you're gonna communicate
(13:34):
when times get tough.
How you're gonna talk aboutdeadlines and timelines,
how your, what your waysof working are going to be.
Who's responsible for whatwithin the relationship.
It's actually having an ongoingconversation that you can
check in on, what are yourexpectations of each other?
What are the agreementsthat you're going to make
and commit to, and makethat just an ongoing part
(13:55):
of your relationship.
Hannah Clark (13:57):
And that's very relevant 'cause it sounds
like navigating competingpriorities is a big challenge
for external stakeholders.
Does anyone wanna chime in onmaybe some ways to manage some
of those kinds of challenges?
Carolyn Dolezal (14:08):
One of the things that I've found helpful,
and I've been on both sides of,I've been a external stakeholder
providing services and I'vebeen a consumer of service.
I find it easy to cut tothe chase and just ask in an
early stage conversations,what does success look like?
What does success look likefor the external stakeholder?
And then us sharing what wethink success looks like.
(14:28):
One of the things, forinstance, as a customer and
purchasing from or workingwith external stakeholders
is I need them to be healthy.
I need them to be viable.
I need them tohave, be profitable.
And so we are interestedin doing that.
It's not just all about priceor that sort of thing, but it's
like how are we gonna deliver?
And how do we make itas smooth as possible?
And I find that when we canboth articulate, although what
(14:50):
success looks like, soundslike such a simple question.
It's a, a Byzantine setof interwoven priorities.
When you start to talkabout it, it's easier to
refer back to that and thensay, are we tracking to
what success looks like?
And then having thatcommunication cadence, the
timing of it, setting updeliberate times to talk,
not just about what'shappening and the outcomes,
(15:12):
but how's it going?
Is the process working for us?
I find that helps shortcut alot of things that could wind
up ballooning or festeringif they're not addressed in
a timely basis, but gettingthe mutual expectation on
what success looks like nomatter what your plan is.
Something else alwayscomes in sideways.
How do we handle itwhen something shifts?
And then being able to talkabout it and appreciate and
(15:35):
respect the other party andboth views because we need both
parties to get things done.
Hannah Clark (15:39):
Okay, we'll change a little bit of the pace again
because I do wanna talk a littlebit about personal branding and
some of the ways to navigatesometimes there's push and pull
between one's, establishingone's personal brand and then
navigating the brand of theorganization that you represent.
There's also the matter ofjust, making sure that your
personal brand continuesto represent who you are.
(15:59):
So what are some effectivestrategies for navigating
just personal branding andthe ways that it plays into
your professional reputation?
Carolyn, did youwanna take this one?
Carolyn Dolezal (16:08):
I think what is the public face that you
put on, whether it's public,internal to the team, or public
to your external stakeholdersand the marketplace.
It's having a really good senseand a strong understanding of
what the organization's brandis, and then for yourself,
what is your brand, whichis a promise of this is
what you can expect from mewhen we have an interaction,
(16:30):
and then looking for asmuch alignment as possible.
Some organizations expectyou to be the public voice
for the organization as ifyou're the spokes model.
Others let you be you andyou're a leader and you
happen to be affiliatedwith this organization.
So understand what thecultural expectations are.
I know for instance, when I wasworking with public companies,
you have to be very sensitiveand aware of when are you
(16:52):
talking as a private citizenand when are you talking or
being perceived as being talkingas part of that organization.
So be careful with that,and then within that
being true to yourself.
Because if for some reason theprojection of the company isn't
aligned with who you are, that'sgonna grind on you over time.
So as, as aligned as you canbe, and hopefully there is a
strong alignment, but over time,if you are misaligned, it's.
(17:15):
Might not be thebest place for you.
Hannah Clark (17:17):
Fair enough.
Kate, did you haveanything to add?
Kate Leto (17:19):
I think it comes down to looking for areas
that you're gonna have someoverlap with your company's
brand and focusing on thoseversus feeling like you
have to be an echo, like anecho chamber of everything
you're saying and doing.
It comes back to, again,having a good understanding
of what your own values areand how are showing up not
just to work to every day, butwithin your community, right?
(17:42):
And how, where there is someoverlap between that and
what your company is bringingon or what your company
portrays with their brand.
And yeah, sometimes there'sa lot of tension there and
especially, I'd say probablyrecently there and somewhere,
oh yes, there might bemore attention than before.
And I think that's prettynormal because, as, although
(18:04):
we sometimes forget thatorganizations are made up
of a lot of individuals,a lot of people, a lot of
humans who all have havetheir own values, their own
beliefs, their own experiencesthat they're bringing on.
So I think it'd be quite rarefor their not to be some kind of
tension between that, a personalbelief and the company belief.
Hopefully there is thatoverlap though, and I think
(18:25):
that's what you focus on.
And it, it's not onlyrepresentative of what you're
saying publicly, perhaps beon LinkedIn or whatever social
platform that you use, butalso how you're representing
yourself internally.
It's showing up and how you'remaking decisions and how you're
building relationships withyour team members and your own
managers and things like that.
(18:45):
So a lot of it, I think justcomes back to that core element
of having good self-awarenessand good understanding of your
own values and your own beliefs.
And how you can bring themforward in a, and hopefully a
positive and productive way.
Hannah Clark (18:59):
And then that brings us to our third
section, which is workingwith internal stakeholders.
Probably the moment that manyof us have been waiting for.
We'll get started with our firstquestion of this section, which
is, what are some of the mosteffective habits that leaders
can build to inspire confidenceand buy-in with their teams?
And I think we have touched onsome of this before, but I'm
sure that there's plenty morethat we haven't gotten to.
Carolyn, if you wantedto take this one away.
Carolyn Dolezal (19:19):
One of the things that I've observed
that help build some ofthat confidence and buy-in
with teams is transparency.
As much transparencyas possible, having the
relationships with the othersthat you're working with,
because things change and thestrength of the relationship
and the trust factor there helpsyou weather a lot of storms.
It's being very respectfulof the other party's time.
(19:41):
Where do you needto dial them in?
Where do you want that input?
How is that inputtaken and treated?
And I think just as you talkabout the process, narrating
it out loud so people knowand understand what that
is, but it's doing whatyou say you're gonna do.
Doing it and then remindingpeople that it's been done
and what's next, I thinkis a really strong way to
keep that faith and trustand smoothness running.
Hannah Clark (20:03):
Kate, I'll let you if you wanted to add
anything about effective habitsand inspiring confidence.
Kate Leto (20:07):
Sure.
Some of the things, you'reright, we have touched
on, I mentioned that Ithink it's important to
build relationships at allareas of the organization.
I think that helps buildconfidence a lot because you
are, the doing that I thinkwas the 50% is showing up
and is being seen by peoplethroughout an organization,
not just perhaps within yoursilo or within your team, and
(20:29):
asking for feedback there.
I think that's a great kind ofsignal of the kind of leader
you are the kind of leaderyou're hoping to become.
But also I'd say one ofthe key things, and it's
interesting, one of my clientsshared this with me, that
what he really strives to doas a leader is to deliver.
He feels that the biggestthat the best kind of
(20:51):
kindness comes from justbeing clear with messaging.
Polarity is kindness, is whathe said, and what always is
in the back of my mind whenI'm talking to new leaders who
are coming into these rolesperhaps for the first time.
So just being really clearon, again, who you are, what's
the direction you're going in.
To Carolyn's point, beingtransparent, of course
(21:12):
is a big part of that.
Sharing that information,sharing the why behind
the decisions that you'remaking, but just being as
clear as possible as youcan and repeating it when
you need to repeat it.
Honing in on the differentkind of aspects of how this
might impact each individualwithin your team and also
the organization at large.
Just really keeping in mindthat having that clarity,
(21:34):
being as clear as you possibleis kind to everyone in the
organization, and sometimesthat means also the feedback
that you're giving to others.
So I think that's a greatthing to keep in mind as we're
thinking through how you canmake influence more real and how
you can bring it into kind ofthe doing aspect of your job.
Hannah Clark (21:52):
So we'll tell a little bit of stories about
amazing leadership in action.
Personally, I'm a big fan oflearning through storytelling,
so I'd love if if our panelistscould share some stories of
just some amazing momentsof leadership that they feel
have a part that we can reallytake home with us today.
Carolyn, did you want to shareor start us off with a story
of a leader that has impactedyour own perception of what
(22:13):
it means to be a great leader?
Carolyn Dolezal (22:14):
I'd love to, and this is probably one
of the best leaders I hadthe privilege to work with.
He was an individual whocame from like a sales
background, so a gregarious,extroverted kind of individual.
I did like the operations andthe back office stuff, and
he was like the front guy.
We had a really good pushand pull in terms of how we
wound up working together.
But what really inspired meabout him as a leader was he
(22:37):
listened to and looked at keyplayers in his team, and as
Kate talked earlier, multiplelayers in the organization.
So he knew his people,he understood his people,
he saw what was theirparticular strength and
understood interrelationships.
And then if he saw something insomebody, he would open doors.
He would make introductions,he would give assignments, he
(22:58):
would make things happen, andyears after, and I owe a lot
of, I think my early successesto his style when I would
thank him for it later, he wasalmost bemused and said, what?
He said, I didn't do anything.
You did all the work.
And I said, you opened the door.
The fact that you opened thedoor and knew I could walk
through it, even if you saidthere's a door, go ahead.
That just, it changedeverything for me.
(23:20):
So I think his generosityin understanding who is
gifted where and where thatcould be used next, and then
creating an opportunity orat least an on-ramp, I found
that to be remarkable andI'm really grateful for it.
Hannah Clark (23:33):
Kate, do you have any stories that come to mind?
Kate Leto (23:35):
Yeah, there's one leader who very similar in
some respects to the storythat Carolyn just mentioned.
He was the CEO of anorganization that I went
in to do some productconsulting for a while.
And what I really, he wasjust, he was very human, right?
He was very funny, hewas very personable.
He was very open.
He loved learning new things.
(23:57):
He always had another book, anew book he was reading and a
conversation that he wanted tohave based on that, to try to
figure out how he could bringthis into the organization
if it made sense, and if itdidn't, he had great trust in
the people that worked for him.
And you just felt likethere was this really
good kinship with him.
Like I almost didn't feellike he was the boss, the CEO.
(24:20):
He was just somebody who wasin your corner and wanted
to help you figure outhow you could be the best
you could be at your job.
He took risks on people thathe thought were ready for them.
It's always open to newideas and new ways of
thinking about things.
He had no problem saying nowhen he needed to, that it
just wasn't the right thing.
And he also, his decisionmaking was very inclusive.
(24:44):
He liked to bring peopleinto the conversation.
He did a great job at gettingperspectives from people from
all throughout the organization.
He had to know everybody withinthis large organization by name
and he knew their backstory.
As you can see me just goingon and gushing about this guy,
he was a great leader, andI don't see many like that.
Hannah Clark (25:03):
Do either of you have more stories you
wanna share before we move on?
Carolyn Dolezal (25:05):
I had a quick one I can maybe share.
I had the opportunity toattend a executive club
meeting last night here inChicago and the guest speaker
was Melinda French Gates.
And so I'm sharing a Melindastory, but she talked about
how initially in her worklife she was in a culture
that was aggressive and verycompetitive and a lot of sharp
elbow throwing and felt that.
(25:27):
Wasn't sure it suited her,but she said before she chose
to be in another environment.
Let me bring myself, so thisgoes back to the authentic self.
And she had high standards,communicated that to her
team and said, you'llprepare for the presentation.
I will work with you to prepare,you'll give the presentation
to the group that's reviewingit, and you've got my support.
I've got your back.
(25:48):
And she found over time whenshe was truer to herself and
did more of that supportivekind of leadership, that
it became a talent magnet.
She was able to attractkey talent from other
places in the organization.
They were saying, howdid you ever get that
guy to sign up with yourpart of the organization?
And she said, I don't know.
Maybe he just wanted to be in aplace where he felt supported.
I listened to that and Iheard she had a 1800 person
(26:10):
division, I think at thattime, that she was leading the
notion of providing support.
Providing the opportunity,having the high standards
holding it, but then alsohelping people adhere to it.
I thought that was somethingI just admired about her
style for a long time.
Hannah Clark (26:24):
So inspirational.
A huge thanks in advance beforewe get to Q&A to our panelists.
So Carolyn, Kate, thank youso much for making time in
your days to be with us.
Kate, I know that you'requite a bit ahead of us
time zone wise, so we reallyappreciate you making the time.
If you'd like to connectwith Carolyn, you can connect
with her directly on LinkedInand then Kate as well.
You can find her on LinkedIn oryou can check out our website.
(26:44):
There's kateleto.com, whichhas her coaching courses and
many other resources available.
Alright, and without furtherado, our final section,
which is going to be justquestions from you folks.
I'll start with aquestion from Galen.
He says a lot of my executiveleadership examples have
been Caucasian male leaders.
The way I saw them build theirinfluence isn't quite viable
for me as a visible minority.
What are some of the strategiesthat minority leaders can use
(27:06):
to play the game when the rulesare different for each player?
Carolyn Dolezal (27:10):
I'll offer perhaps to start.
I think the it goes back to theaudience that you're playing
to and when you're playingto that C-suite, it is tough.
It is a challenge.
I had a mentor tell me at onepoint that if you aren't cut
from that same cookie cuttermold that they are, you may
have to be twice as good and youmay have to work twice as hard
(27:31):
before they believe it, not seeit, but believe it, that you're
able to do it sustainably.
That was the reality ofthe situation I was in and
instead of finding it reallydisheartening, I actually
found it encouraging is atleast I knew that there's
potentially this breakthrough.
But it was needing to be good.
It was needing to do thesecommunications and it was
needing to be persistentand to determine if
(27:52):
that's what I wanted todo, stay true to myself.
There's a lot of overlap.
I think, or I hope acertain amount to get and
be able to deliver there.
There are thingsthat are different.
I have been workingfor many decades now.
I still don't have all the edgesrounded off, but at least I can
feel good about what I'm doing.
But I understand it is probablyharder because not everybody
(28:13):
in that audience wants tobelieve it is possible.
Hannah Clark (28:16):
This next one is from Agueda.
This is aboutrevisiting agreements.
They say during the lifecycles of projects, there
are inflection moments whereagreements need to be revisited.
How do you maintain the momentumof the project while revisiting
the agreement with stakeholders.
They add, this could lead toa wrong outcome of a project
or a missed agreement, or whathappens when the revisited
agreement leads to theneed to create a different
outcome of the project.
(28:37):
So a bit of more ofa complex question.
Does anyone wannatake this one on?
Kate Leto (28:40):
Things are always gonna change, right?
So I think that's a foundationalbelief or something that we need
to accept is that, the worldchanges a million times a day.
So of course things aregoing to change in your
long-term relationship withthe stakeholder, and it's
gonna be challenging and it'sgonna be frustrating at times.
I think one of the bestthings to do is to, in
those initial upfrontagreements that you set up.
(29:03):
How are we gonna check in whenthings go off the rails a bit.
And for a lot of, with alot of my clients, larger
organizations, we put inplace some, a different kind
of adaptive practices, makesure that you have retros with
your stakeholder or with yourexternal stakeholder, every
quarter or something likethat at a cadence that you
feel is the right way to go.
(29:25):
So this becomes like a naturalhabit, a natural way of working.
You're always going to havethis kind of conversation
maybe once a quarter, acouple times a year, whatever
it might fit for you.
I think in terms of motivation,I've seen where these kind of
conversations really go offthe rails when we're just doing
the same type of conversationevery time, you're reporting
(29:47):
certain numbers, you'rechecking in on certain things.
There's really no opportunityto actually have some
different conversationsaround what's working with the
relationship and what's not.
What kind of changes do youneed to make and how you're
working together, and reallyget into some of those more
juicy or meatier things versusjust checking dates, checking
timelines, perhaps checking,personnel that you might have
(30:10):
working on different projects.
And one, just acknowledgethe fact that you need to
have these conversations.
They're really important tohave set up a cadence upfront
that you're going to stick toand change the tone of those
conversations from time totime when you can to make it
more about how are we workingtogether, what's going well,
what's not going well, andwhat do we wanna continue
(30:31):
to change versus perhaps atemplate in check-in, which
I often see happen betweenclient and stakeholder.
Hannah Clar (30:38):
Thank you for that.
That was a great answer, Kate.
I wanna move on to this questionfrom Amelia, which I think is
one that probably all of ushave had to ask at one point.
I feel I've lost stakeholderinfluence early on by
making a lot of mistakes.
What can I do to buildmy influence back up?
Carolyn (30:54):
That's a good question.
Maybe some suggestions are,I find acknowledgement of
what might have not beendelivered the way I had
intended or wanted it tobe, where it's appropriate,
an apology and a remedy.
And so this is what we will do.
And then I think the kindof re it takes time to
rebuild trust and it takestime for people to believe
(31:14):
it's different this time.
So it's unfortunate, butI think it's solvable,
but reestablishing what itis, how this works, being
respectful of their time.
But carrying forth over time,they'll remember maybe the more
recent experience and they'llforget the initial experience.
It just takes a while todig outta that, that hole.
Kate Leto (31:31):
Yeah.
I had a client ask methis question this week.
It was really interesting.
Some, she's working rebuildingsome relationships within her
organization and I think, firstoff, it's just letting people
know that you're working on it.
Carolyn's point aboutacknowledging it.
This is somethingI'm working on.
Some feedback that she received,acknowledging the feedback.
Tell them you're working on it,and check in with them again to
(31:54):
see how things are going to seeif they've noticed a change.
That maybe is not a conversationyou can have with everyone,
but I think there are probablya few people within an
organization that you can.
Carolyn Dolezal (32:04):
I'll also say it's not comfortable,
and that's okay.
It's not gonna be comfortable.
There's no, I don't havea silver bullet or a
smooth way, but I thinkwith the perseverance, you
can turn things around.
Hannah Clark (32:14):
Yeah, I think that, that show of good faith
is very powerful and just,leveling with people that you're
aware of the concerns and thatit's a signal to be attentive
and invitation for furtherand very honest feedback.
So I, yeah, I appreciatethat answer as well.
Our last question is from Yaron.
What are some strategiesthat we can use to mitigate
some of those challengeswith regards to communication
throughout the org chart?
Carolyn Dolez (32:35):
Couple of things.
I think there's quantitativeways to gather feedback, and
I know that's really popularand you can get numbers,
but I personally find thatqualitative feedback is really
helpful because you can godeeper and get richer and some
nuances that you might nothave otherwise thought about.
So offering some space for that.
And this is, I don't know,it's, maybe it's my Midwestern,
middle class upbringing.
(32:56):
But if there's a way to sharea meal with somebody or like
host a breakfast thing or, andI find smaller groups, people
are sometimes feel freer totalk in smaller groups than
if they're in a big group.
Somehow there's adinnertime diplomacy.
If you can talk overfood, I think that helps.
And then leaving that spaceand then do not under any
circumstance, act rushed.
If you allow half an hour forthe conversation, don't block
(33:17):
anything on your calendar afterthat because you don't wanna be
like, okay, hurry up and thenlet me get outta here 'cause
then people will withdraw.
Those are some things Ithink that are helpful to
get some depth, to understandwhat's on their mind.
And usually it's the lasttwo minutes where you hear
what they're really thinking.
The rest of it's preambleand warm up, but in the
last two minutes they'lldeliver the payload of
information you're looking for.
Hannah Clark (33:36):
I love this tip.
Thank you again to ourpanelists, Kate and Carolyn.
This is wonderful to have youhere and I really appreciate
the gift of your insightsthat you shared with us today.
Kate Leto (33:44):
Thank you.
Hannah Clark (33:48):
Thanks for listening in.
For more great insights,how-to guides and tool reviews,
subscribe to our newsletter attheproductmanager.com/subscribe.
You can hear more conversationslike this by subscribing to
the Product Manager whereveryou get your podcasts.
Most of us spend years climbing the corporate
ladder only to realizethat the keys to the corner
office don't necessarily comewith the keys to the hearts
and minds of your team.
So we brought together twoexecutive coaches who have seen
it all — Carolyn Dolezal, COOat Americas' SAP Users' Group,
and Kate Leto, who's coachsenior teams at JP Morgan Chase,
The Financial Times, and more.
(00:22):
They joined us for a candidpanel discussion about
the myths, realities, andchallenges of executive
leadership, and specificallythe ways leaders can gain the
confidence and trust of internaland external stakeholders.
You'll hear their unfilteredinsights on why your personal
agenda might be sabotagingyour C-suite team, how to
build influence when the oddsare stacked against you, and
the art of recovering fromearly leadership mistakes.
(00:43):
Whether you're already in theC-suite or making your way
there, these tactics will impactthe way you lead starting today.
Let's jump in.
Oh, by the way, we holdconversations like this
every week, so if thissounds interesting to
you, why not subscribe?
Okay.
Now let's jump in.
Without further ado, I'llintroduce our guests today.
So first up, we'vegot Carolyn Dolezal.
(01:05):
She is the COO at Americas'SAP Users' Group, or ASUG,
and an executive coachdedicated to developing
high performing leaders.
She's got a background inoperations and organizational
strategy, and she helpsteams scale sustainably
while empowering individualsto lead with clarity,
confidence, and impact.
So Carolyn, thank youfor joining us today.
Carolyn Dolezal (01:24):
Thank you.
Glad to be here.
Hannah Clark (01:26):
I'll toss a little jeopardy question to
you to get us acquainted.
Carolyn, as someone who'scoached execs and run ops
yourself at scale, youhave seen a few things.
What's something that'scommonly touted as a leadership
best practice that you thinkis, it maybe makes you roll
your eyes a little bit?
Carolyn Dolezal (01:41):
One of the ones I can think of, and it's
some advice that was givento me initially as I was
entering, is never let 'em seeyou sweat, lead with an iron
fist, and kind of goad peopleto their best performance.
I think there's some meritto setting high standards
and encouraging people to getto the best performance, but
acting like a field marshal,I don't think is effective.
Hannah Clark (02:00):
Great.
Thank you for joining us.
Next, we have Kate Leto.
Kate has been immersedin product management,
organizational design,and personal development
for 25 years, and she's anaccredited executive coach.
She's worked with senior teamsand individuals at JP Morgan
Chase, The Financial Times,Comic Relief, TUI, The Boeing
Company, Merck, and many more.
Kate, thank you for joining us.
Kate Leto (02:19):
Thank you.
Very happy to be here.
Hannah Clark (02:21):
So Kate, you've led some teams as
a product leader, and nowyou coach top execs across
many different industries.
So what's one belief aboutleadership that you have
held onto that coaching haschanged your perspective on?
Kate Leto (02:33):
Yeah, I'd say the biggest, strongest belief
that I had when I enteredmy first product leadership
role was that I had tohave all the answers right.
I had to know exactlywhat we needed to do.
I had to be able to fix anykind of challenge that my team
or the organization was walkinginto, but it was all on me.
I needed to be thehero, like every day.
(02:53):
And as a coach, I see howharmful that is not only on,
the individual who, if they'reactually trying to do that
is, is going to face somechallenges in wellness and
health and mentally as well.
Just being able to kindof power through, but
also to the organization.
Because if you've got,if you're this leader who
handles everyone's challengesand problems, you're
(03:15):
not letting people grow.
You're not letting peoplehandle their own challenges and
take on those for themselves.
So I'd say that's the biggestmind shift I've had going
from product leader to coach.
Hannah Clark (03:27):
So today's session, we'll be focusing
on managing stakeholderperception, how product leaders
build and lose influence.
We'll be talking about thistopic in three sections.
Section one will be the fact andfiction of executive leadership.
We'll go through some mythsversus reality and some
best practices in that way.
Then we'll focus in our secondsection on navigating external
stakeholder relationships.
Then on our final third section,we will talk about working
(03:50):
with internal stakeholders,which I'm sure is what
everyone is very focused on.
Then towards end, like Isaid, we'll be doing a Q&A.
And without further ado, ourfirst question under fact
and fiction of executiveleadership, what are the
most common, unintentionalmissteps that leaders make
as they transition into anexecutive leadership position?
Kate, did you wanna takethis one from the top?
Kate Leto (04:11):
Sure.
I think building off of whatI just was talking about
in terms of what I learnedpersonally going from being
a product leader to being anexecutive coach is this idea
that we have to as leader orexecutive or member of the
C-Suite, that we know it all.
And that we have to be able tosolve or that we can solve any
challenge that's coming our way.
I've seen it referred to,and I often use with my
(04:34):
clients the phrase strategicover functioning, right?
Like that we think that we needto be able to handle it all
and that we can handle it all.
So I think that's somethingthat continues to stand out as
a problem that we're dealingwith and the lead leaders as
we kinda step into these roles.
It's just that we put it onourselves to be able to take
(04:56):
charge and handle all of theproblems and come up with
all these great solutions.
And I think it just puts usas leaders into a very awkward
position from the get go.
So I say that's one of thebiggest missteps that I've seen.
Hannah Clark (05:08):
Carolyn, did you have anything you
wanted to build onto that?
Carolyn Dolezal (05:10):
I think as you enter into the leadership
role, it is a little bitas Kate was talking about.
It's not a performance,it's not performance art.
There's gotta be substance.
And then how do you buildyour substance quickly?
Because you don'tknow all these things.
You don't know all the answers.
What I found is useful is ifyou have a process through which
you're gonna gather informationabout customer needs,
(05:32):
stakeholder needs, staff needs.
Articulate your process.
Tell people how you'regoing to come into this.
You're not coming on inday one with a lot of
heavy pronouncements.
And then listen.
Listen really hard and reallyask those questions because you
want to be able to make smartdecisions and you can't do that
without data and information.
And the best way to getdata and information,
(05:52):
I have found is to ask.
Ask at various levels and askin various pockets of interest.
Hannah Clark (05:58):
Do you have anything to add, Kate?
Kate Leto (05:59):
Just one other thought that I had about
it is that, when we stepinto leadership roles,
we're often going to bemodeling the leadership
that we've seen before.
Be it, you know that ironfist often is what we have in
the back of our minds 'causeit's the way that we were
managed perhaps, and otherroles in other organizations.
What I've noticed is thatthere's this tendency to
just adopt that style, right?
(06:22):
And try to make it our own.
And as we do that, we kindlose our own authenticity.
We lose touch with who we areand our values and what our
skills really are and in manyways what got us to that role.
So I think that's anothercommon misstep, is that we're
not taught how to be a leaderand much, against kind of what
some kind of common conceptsare that I don't think we're
(06:45):
born, I don't think thereare many born leaders either.
I think it's somethingthat we learn and
something that we grow.
It's a developmental skill likeanything else but in, in kind
of the vacuum that we often stepinto as a new leader, or even
moving up kind of the corporateladder into the C-Suite.
We still don't really knowwhat we're doing, right?
(07:05):
We're making it up as we goalong, and we do have that
tendency to just grab ontowhat we've seen before and
what we've experienced before.
Instead of really takingthe time to have a good
understanding and build ourown self-awareness of okay,
who are we and how do I wannabring that into an organization
and build relationships withmy team, be it C-Suite team
members, or folks that are partof my team and my organization.
(07:29):
So I think that's somethingelse to be very aware of as,
we're stepping into it, be itour first leadership role or
much higher up that ladder is.
Unless we do take some timeto step back and think about
what kind of, what doesit mean to be a leader and
how do I wanna bring thatinto my work every day?
I think we do fall intothat vacuum of just grabbing
(07:51):
and adopting what we'veseen before, and I think
that's really dangerous.
Hannah Clark (07:54):
Good point.
And I think that leads reallywell into our next question
about pervasive and maybeunhelpful tropes about being
in the C-suite that might maybedissuade people from feeling
that they have a positionthere or that they would fit
with that kind of a culture.
Or that might be just settingpeople up for the wrong
expectations in the role.
So what would some of thosemore pervasive myths look like?
(08:15):
Carolyn, did youwanna take this one?
Carolyn Dolezal (08:17):
I think one of the ones that I know I
had thought was true and thenencountered is as your added
level in the organization, andyou look upward, my tendency
was to believe that these peoplewere in those roles because they
had things figured out and thealignment was there and this
is what we were aspiring to be.
And then sometimes even if themodeling of the behavior wasn't
exactly what I wanted, butthat leadership seemed great.
(08:38):
What I found when I actuallyentered the room is not
everybody in that room,even though we're called
the leadership team or theexecutive team, not everybody's
agenda and not everybody'sgoals are necessarily aligned.
And I assume that's establishedthere and then cascaded.
And that's how we, atour earlier levels,
understood what to do next.
But it caught me by surprise.
(08:59):
There are private gendas,there are functional agendas,
there are, real estategrab agendas that kind
of happen through things.
So just assuming that becauseyou're on the team that the
team has common interests issomething that you wanna examine
and test those assumptions,and it does come from the top.
And then likewise you foryour team, et cetera, to just
keep reinforcing that 'causethings do shift, things drift.
(09:21):
And then people are humans, theyhave their own agenda sometimes.
Not everybody is aligned eventhough you think they should be.
Hannah Clark (09:26):
Kate, did you wanna add on that?
Kate Leto (09:28):
To add on to that and to add on to what I was
saying just a minute ago aboutsome of the common missteps and
the fact that we, leadershipitself is something that we
learn through practice and welearn through trying to focus
on specific skills is thatit's we need to realize that
just because they're in theC-suite doesn't mean that the
personal development or thatleadership development stops,
(09:49):
or that the learning stops.
I think a lot of times wehave that kind of impression
in my, in our minds, thatthey're in the C-Suite.
They're the CTO orthe cmo, or the CEO.
They must know everythingthat they need to know, right?
They must be really goodat their jobs and they've
got it all up here.
To Carolyn's point that itdoesn't mean that the team is
aligned by any means, but italso doesn't mean that leader
(10:11):
should stop growing, right?
Or can stop growing.
That personal developmentcomes to a halt the minute
they step into the C-suite.
That's something that's reallyimportant as well, because just
because you're an executive,it doesn't mean you, you
do stop growing, doesn'tmean you do stop learning.
The best ones continue toevolve and continue to grow.
Carolyn Dolezal (10:30):
And I think toward that is
that, where do you as aleader get your feedback?
Are you getting feedback?
Are you listening with theintention of using that to
continue to improve and grow?
And I think what's sometimeschallenging is as you get to
the higher levels, is who?
Who will speak to thetruth to you, who dares
to speak the truth to you?
Depending on how theirexperience with leadership is.
(10:53):
I don't wanna tell 'em anythingthey don't already wanna hear.
That can be extremelydamaging to the organization.
So it takes trust, ittakes a willingness to
take that feedback in.
Listen, and if there'sa mistake or an error or
a shift, acknowledgingit, that can be really
powerful in an organization.
And the leader's gotta bewilling to take it on first.
And I think asking for feedbackversus hoping people wander in
(11:15):
and offer it because they mightdo it to their own detriment.
I think asking for feedback,listening carefully to it, and
then acknowledging it and thensaying to the organization,
you're gonna work on somethingreally holds you accountable.
And I think that Who are yourtruth tellers and make sure
that you access them often.
Kate Leto (11:30):
Yeah.
Building influence as anexecutive, I think one of
the best ways you do that,as Carolyn is saying is
asking for feedback, takingon board every other people's
opinions and perspectiveson, whatever it might be.
A new project, a new hire, anew strategy, a new direction,
and getting out into differentareas of the organization
and different levels.
Not just always going tothe person right below you
(11:53):
for that feedback, right?
Getting into the differentareas and different levels
of your organization to buildthose relationships and ensure
you're building that habit offeedback, of asking for feedback
and actually, acknowledgingit and taking it on board.
Yeah.
I think it goes back to thisidea that just because you're
an executive doesn't meanthat, that you don't, that
(12:13):
there's not areas to improve,there's not areas to grow,
and there's not areas thatyou can build relationships
to get some really goodfeedback to help you do that.
Hannah Clark (12:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I, I think when you havethose kinds of strong and
established relationships,then people really believe
and trust that you have theirbest interests at heart and
that you're representing,their voice in your decision,
it's strategic, but I thinkit's also, it's good business
and it's makes for a muchmore rewarding career when
you have that kind of a asmooth working relationship.
Kate Leto (12:40):
Yeah, it's, it's a sure way to grow influence for
yourself and to be that modelto others in the organization
on how they can do it too.
Hannah Clark (12:48):
We'll move then into our next section.
We shall be navigatingexternal stakeholders.
We'll move right into our nextquestion, which is, what are
the most important habits,policies, and conversations
that leaders should be havingand committing to if they wanna
build those solid relationshipswith external stakeholders?
I know we've just touched alittle bit on some of those
internal relationships.
Kate, what would you say aboutsome of the best practices for
(13:09):
external relationship building?
Kate Leto (13:11):
I think it's a lot of the same stuff as
internal relationship building.
One of the things that Italk to clients quite a bit
about is upfront, be it anew member of a team or a new
external stakeholder, is to getreally clear about what your
expectations are of each other,and actually make some committed
agreements around those.
And that could be anything fromhow you're gonna communicate
(13:34):
when times get tough.
How you're gonna talk aboutdeadlines and timelines,
how your, what your waysof working are going to be.
Who's responsible for whatwithin the relationship.
It's actually having an ongoingconversation that you can
check in on, what are yourexpectations of each other?
What are the agreementsthat you're going to make
and commit to, and makethat just an ongoing part
(13:55):
of your relationship.
Hannah Clark (13:57):
And that's very relevant 'cause it sounds
like navigating competingpriorities is a big challenge
for external stakeholders.
Does anyone wanna chime in onmaybe some ways to manage some
of those kinds of challenges?
Carolyn Dolezal (14:08):
One of the things that I've found helpful,
and I've been on both sides of,I've been a external stakeholder
providing services and I'vebeen a consumer of service.
I find it easy to cut tothe chase and just ask in an
early stage conversations,what does success look like?
What does success look likefor the external stakeholder?
And then us sharing what wethink success looks like.
(14:28):
One of the things, forinstance, as a customer and
purchasing from or workingwith external stakeholders
is I need them to be healthy.
I need them to be viable.
I need them tohave, be profitable.
And so we are interestedin doing that.
It's not just all about priceor that sort of thing, but it's
like how are we gonna deliver?
And how do we make itas smooth as possible?
And I find that when we canboth articulate, although what
(14:50):
success looks like, soundslike such a simple question.
It's a, a Byzantine setof interwoven priorities.
When you start to talkabout it, it's easier to
refer back to that and thensay, are we tracking to
what success looks like?
And then having thatcommunication cadence, the
timing of it, setting updeliberate times to talk,
not just about what'shappening and the outcomes,
(15:12):
but how's it going?
Is the process working for us?
I find that helps shortcut alot of things that could wind
up ballooning or festeringif they're not addressed in
a timely basis, but gettingthe mutual expectation on
what success looks like nomatter what your plan is.
Something else alwayscomes in sideways.
How do we handle itwhen something shifts?
And then being able to talkabout it and appreciate and
(15:35):
respect the other party andboth views because we need both
parties to get things done.
Hannah Clark (15:39):
Okay, we'll change a little bit of the pace again
because I do wanna talk a littlebit about personal branding and
some of the ways to navigatesometimes there's push and pull
between one's, establishingone's personal brand and then
navigating the brand of theorganization that you represent.
There's also the matter ofjust, making sure that your
personal brand continuesto represent who you are.
(15:59):
So what are some effectivestrategies for navigating
just personal branding andthe ways that it plays into
your professional reputation?
Carolyn, did youwanna take this one?
Carolyn Dolezal (16:08):
I think what is the public face that you
put on, whether it's public,internal to the team, or public
to your external stakeholdersand the marketplace.
It's having a really good senseand a strong understanding of
what the organization's brandis, and then for yourself,
what is your brand, whichis a promise of this is
what you can expect from mewhen we have an interaction,
(16:30):
and then looking for asmuch alignment as possible.
Some organizations expectyou to be the public voice
for the organization as ifyou're the spokes model.
Others let you be you andyou're a leader and you
happen to be affiliatedwith this organization.
So understand what thecultural expectations are.
I know for instance, when I wasworking with public companies,
you have to be very sensitiveand aware of when are you
(16:52):
talking as a private citizenand when are you talking or
being perceived as being talkingas part of that organization.
So be careful with that,and then within that
being true to yourself.
Because if for some reason theprojection of the company isn't
aligned with who you are, that'sgonna grind on you over time.
So as, as aligned as you canbe, and hopefully there is a
strong alignment, but over time,if you are misaligned, it's.
(17:15):
Might not be thebest place for you.
Hannah Clark (17:17):
Fair enough.
Kate, did you haveanything to add?
Kate Leto (17:19):
I think it comes down to looking for areas
that you're gonna have someoverlap with your company's
brand and focusing on thoseversus feeling like you
have to be an echo, like anecho chamber of everything
you're saying and doing.
It comes back to, again,having a good understanding
of what your own values areand how are showing up not
just to work to every day, butwithin your community, right?
(17:42):
And how, where there is someoverlap between that and
what your company is bringingon or what your company
portrays with their brand.
And yeah, sometimes there'sa lot of tension there and
especially, I'd say probablyrecently there and somewhere,
oh yes, there might bemore attention than before.
And I think that's prettynormal because, as, although
(18:04):
we sometimes forget thatorganizations are made up
of a lot of individuals,a lot of people, a lot of
humans who all have havetheir own values, their own
beliefs, their own experiencesthat they're bringing on.
So I think it'd be quite rarefor their not to be some kind of
tension between that, a personalbelief and the company belief.
Hopefully there is thatoverlap though, and I think
(18:25):
that's what you focus on.
And it, it's not onlyrepresentative of what you're
saying publicly, perhaps beon LinkedIn or whatever social
platform that you use, butalso how you're representing
yourself internally.
It's showing up and how you'remaking decisions and how you're
building relationships withyour team members and your own
managers and things like that.
(18:45):
So a lot of it, I think justcomes back to that core element
of having good self-awarenessand good understanding of your
own values and your own beliefs.
And how you can bring themforward in a, and hopefully a
positive and productive way.
Hannah Clark (18:59):
And then that brings us to our third
section, which is workingwith internal stakeholders.
Probably the moment that manyof us have been waiting for.
We'll get started with our firstquestion of this section, which
is, what are some of the mosteffective habits that leaders
can build to inspire confidenceand buy-in with their teams?
And I think we have touched onsome of this before, but I'm
sure that there's plenty morethat we haven't gotten to.
Carolyn, if you wantedto take this one away.
Carolyn Dolezal (19:19):
One of the things that I've observed
that help build some ofthat confidence and buy-in
with teams is transparency.
As much transparencyas possible, having the
relationships with the othersthat you're working with,
because things change and thestrength of the relationship
and the trust factor there helpsyou weather a lot of storms.
It's being very respectfulof the other party's time.
(19:41):
Where do you needto dial them in?
Where do you want that input?
How is that inputtaken and treated?
And I think just as you talkabout the process, narrating
it out loud so people knowand understand what that
is, but it's doing whatyou say you're gonna do.
Doing it and then remindingpeople that it's been done
and what's next, I thinkis a really strong way to
keep that faith and trustand smoothness running.
Hannah Clark (20:03):
Kate, I'll let you if you wanted to add
anything about effective habitsand inspiring confidence.
Kate Leto (20:07):
Sure.
Some of the things, you'reright, we have touched
on, I mentioned that Ithink it's important to
build relationships at allareas of the organization.
I think that helps buildconfidence a lot because you
are, the doing that I thinkwas the 50% is showing up
and is being seen by peoplethroughout an organization,
not just perhaps within yoursilo or within your team, and
(20:29):
asking for feedback there.
I think that's a great kind ofsignal of the kind of leader
you are the kind of leaderyou're hoping to become.
But also I'd say one ofthe key things, and it's
interesting, one of my clientsshared this with me, that
what he really strives to doas a leader is to deliver.
He feels that the biggestthat the best kind of
(20:51):
kindness comes from justbeing clear with messaging.
Polarity is kindness, is whathe said, and what always is
in the back of my mind whenI'm talking to new leaders who
are coming into these rolesperhaps for the first time.
So just being really clearon, again, who you are, what's
the direction you're going in.
To Carolyn's point, beingtransparent, of course
(21:12):
is a big part of that.
Sharing that information,sharing the why behind
the decisions that you'remaking, but just being as
clear as possible as youcan and repeating it when
you need to repeat it.
Honing in on the differentkind of aspects of how this
might impact each individualwithin your team and also
the organization at large.
Just really keeping in mindthat having that clarity,
(21:34):
being as clear as you possibleis kind to everyone in the
organization, and sometimesthat means also the feedback
that you're giving to others.
So I think that's a greatthing to keep in mind as we're
thinking through how you canmake influence more real and how
you can bring it into kind ofthe doing aspect of your job.
Hannah Clark (21:52):
So we'll tell a little bit of stories about
amazing leadership in action.
Personally, I'm a big fan oflearning through storytelling,
so I'd love if if our panelistscould share some stories of
just some amazing momentsof leadership that they feel
have a part that we can reallytake home with us today.
Carolyn, did you want to shareor start us off with a story
of a leader that has impactedyour own perception of what
(22:13):
it means to be a great leader?
Carolyn Dolezal (22:14):
I'd love to, and this is probably one
of the best leaders I hadthe privilege to work with.
He was an individual whocame from like a sales
background, so a gregarious,extroverted kind of individual.
I did like the operations andthe back office stuff, and
he was like the front guy.
We had a really good pushand pull in terms of how we
wound up working together.
But what really inspired meabout him as a leader was he
(22:37):
listened to and looked at keyplayers in his team, and as
Kate talked earlier, multiplelayers in the organization.
So he knew his people,he understood his people,
he saw what was theirparticular strength and
understood interrelationships.
And then if he saw something insomebody, he would open doors.
He would make introductions,he would give assignments, he
(22:58):
would make things happen, andyears after, and I owe a lot
of, I think my early successesto his style when I would
thank him for it later, he wasalmost bemused and said, what?
He said, I didn't do anything.
You did all the work.
And I said, you opened the door.
The fact that you opened thedoor and knew I could walk
through it, even if you saidthere's a door, go ahead.
That just, it changedeverything for me.
(23:20):
So I think his generosityin understanding who is
gifted where and where thatcould be used next, and then
creating an opportunity orat least an on-ramp, I found
that to be remarkable andI'm really grateful for it.
Hannah Clark (23:33):
Kate, do you have any stories that come to mind?
Kate Leto (23:35):
Yeah, there's one leader who very similar in
some respects to the storythat Carolyn just mentioned.
He was the CEO of anorganization that I went
in to do some productconsulting for a while.
And what I really, he wasjust, he was very human, right?
He was very funny, hewas very personable.
He was very open.
He loved learning new things.
(23:57):
He always had another book, anew book he was reading and a
conversation that he wanted tohave based on that, to try to
figure out how he could bringthis into the organization
if it made sense, and if itdidn't, he had great trust in
the people that worked for him.
And you just felt likethere was this really
good kinship with him.
Like I almost didn't feellike he was the boss, the CEO.
(24:20):
He was just somebody who wasin your corner and wanted
to help you figure outhow you could be the best
you could be at your job.
He took risks on people thathe thought were ready for them.
It's always open to newideas and new ways of
thinking about things.
He had no problem saying nowhen he needed to, that it
just wasn't the right thing.
And he also, his decisionmaking was very inclusive.
(24:44):
He liked to bring peopleinto the conversation.
He did a great job at gettingperspectives from people from
all throughout the organization.
He had to know everybody withinthis large organization by name
and he knew their backstory.
As you can see me just goingon and gushing about this guy,
he was a great leader, andI don't see many like that.
Hannah Clark (25:03):
Do either of you have more stories you
wanna share before we move on?
Carolyn Dolezal (25:05):
I had a quick one I can maybe share.
I had the opportunity toattend a executive club
meeting last night here inChicago and the guest speaker
was Melinda French Gates.
And so I'm sharing a Melindastory, but she talked about
how initially in her worklife she was in a culture
that was aggressive and verycompetitive and a lot of sharp
elbow throwing and felt that.
(25:27):
Wasn't sure it suited her,but she said before she chose
to be in another environment.
Let me bring myself, so thisgoes back to the authentic self.
And she had high standards,communicated that to her
team and said, you'llprepare for the presentation.
I will work with you to prepare,you'll give the presentation
to the group that's reviewingit, and you've got my support.
I've got your back.
(25:48):
And she found over time whenshe was truer to herself and
did more of that supportivekind of leadership, that
it became a talent magnet.
She was able to attractkey talent from other
places in the organization.
They were saying, howdid you ever get that
guy to sign up with yourpart of the organization?
And she said, I don't know.
Maybe he just wanted to be in aplace where he felt supported.
I listened to that and Iheard she had a 1800 person
(26:10):
division, I think at thattime, that she was leading the
notion of providing support.
Providing the opportunity,having the high standards
holding it, but then alsohelping people adhere to it.
I thought that was somethingI just admired about her
style for a long time.
Hannah Clark (26:24):
So inspirational.
A huge thanks in advance beforewe get to Q&A to our panelists.
So Carolyn, Kate, thank youso much for making time in
your days to be with us.
Kate, I know that you'requite a bit ahead of us
time zone wise, so we reallyappreciate you making the time.
If you'd like to connectwith Carolyn, you can connect
with her directly on LinkedInand then Kate as well.
You can find her on LinkedIn oryou can check out our website.
(26:44):
There's kateleto.com, whichhas her coaching courses and
many other resources available.
Alright, and without furtherado, our final section,
which is going to be justquestions from you folks.
I'll start with aquestion from Galen.
He says a lot of my executiveleadership examples have
been Caucasian male leaders.
The way I saw them build theirinfluence isn't quite viable
for me as a visible minority.
What are some of the strategiesthat minority leaders can use
(27:06):
to play the game when the rulesare different for each player?
Carolyn Dolezal (27:10):
I'll offer perhaps to start.
I think the it goes back to theaudience that you're playing
to and when you're playingto that C-suite, it is tough.
It is a challenge.
I had a mentor tell me at onepoint that if you aren't cut
from that same cookie cuttermold that they are, you may
have to be twice as good and youmay have to work twice as hard
(27:31):
before they believe it, not seeit, but believe it, that you're
able to do it sustainably.
That was the reality ofthe situation I was in and
instead of finding it reallydisheartening, I actually
found it encouraging is atleast I knew that there's
potentially this breakthrough.
But it was needing to be good.
It was needing to do thesecommunications and it was
needing to be persistentand to determine if
(27:52):
that's what I wanted todo, stay true to myself.
There's a lot of overlap.
I think, or I hope acertain amount to get and
be able to deliver there.
There are thingsthat are different.
I have been workingfor many decades now.
I still don't have all the edgesrounded off, but at least I can
feel good about what I'm doing.
But I understand it is probablyharder because not everybody
(28:13):
in that audience wants tobelieve it is possible.
Hannah Clark (28:16):
This next one is from Agueda.
This is aboutrevisiting agreements.
They say during the lifecycles of projects, there
are inflection moments whereagreements need to be revisited.
How do you maintain the momentumof the project while revisiting
the agreement with stakeholders.
They add, this could lead toa wrong outcome of a project
or a missed agreement, or whathappens when the revisited
agreement leads to theneed to create a different
outcome of the project.
(28:37):
So a bit of more ofa complex question.
Does anyone wannatake this one on?
Kate Leto (28:40):
Things are always gonna change, right?
So I think that's a foundationalbelief or something that we need
to accept is that, the worldchanges a million times a day.
So of course things aregoing to change in your
long-term relationship withthe stakeholder, and it's
gonna be challenging and it'sgonna be frustrating at times.
I think one of the bestthings to do is to, in
those initial upfrontagreements that you set up.
(29:03):
How are we gonna check in whenthings go off the rails a bit.
And for a lot of, with alot of my clients, larger
organizations, we put inplace some, a different kind
of adaptive practices, makesure that you have retros with
your stakeholder or with yourexternal stakeholder, every
quarter or something likethat at a cadence that you
feel is the right way to go.
(29:25):
So this becomes like a naturalhabit, a natural way of working.
You're always going to havethis kind of conversation
maybe once a quarter, acouple times a year, whatever
it might fit for you.
I think in terms of motivation,I've seen where these kind of
conversations really go offthe rails when we're just doing
the same type of conversationevery time, you're reporting
(29:47):
certain numbers, you'rechecking in on certain things.
There's really no opportunityto actually have some
different conversationsaround what's working with the
relationship and what's not.
What kind of changes do youneed to make and how you're
working together, and reallyget into some of those more
juicy or meatier things versusjust checking dates, checking
timelines, perhaps checking,personnel that you might have
(30:10):
working on different projects.
And one, just acknowledgethe fact that you need to
have these conversations.
They're really important tohave set up a cadence upfront
that you're going to stick toand change the tone of those
conversations from time totime when you can to make it
more about how are we workingtogether, what's going well,
what's not going well, andwhat do we wanna continue
(30:31):
to change versus perhaps atemplate in check-in, which
I often see happen betweenclient and stakeholder.
Hannah Clar (30:38):
Thank you for that.
That was a great answer, Kate.
I wanna move on to this questionfrom Amelia, which I think is
one that probably all of ushave had to ask at one point.
I feel I've lost stakeholderinfluence early on by
making a lot of mistakes.
What can I do to buildmy influence back up?
Carolyn (30:54):
That's a good question.
Maybe some suggestions are,I find acknowledgement of
what might have not beendelivered the way I had
intended or wanted it tobe, where it's appropriate,
an apology and a remedy.
And so this is what we will do.
And then I think the kindof re it takes time to
rebuild trust and it takestime for people to believe
(31:14):
it's different this time.
So it's unfortunate, butI think it's solvable,
but reestablishing what itis, how this works, being
respectful of their time.
But carrying forth over time,they'll remember maybe the more
recent experience and they'llforget the initial experience.
It just takes a while todig outta that, that hole.
Kate Leto (31:31):
Yeah.
I had a client ask methis question this week.
It was really interesting.
Some, she's working rebuildingsome relationships within her
organization and I think, firstoff, it's just letting people
know that you're working on it.
Carolyn's point aboutacknowledging it.
This is somethingI'm working on.
Some feedback that she received,acknowledging the feedback.
Tell them you're working on it,and check in with them again to
(31:54):
see how things are going to seeif they've noticed a change.
That maybe is not a conversationyou can have with everyone,
but I think there are probablya few people within an
organization that you can.
Carolyn Dolezal (32:04):
I'll also say it's not comfortable,
and that's okay.
It's not gonna be comfortable.
There's no, I don't havea silver bullet or a
smooth way, but I thinkwith the perseverance, you
can turn things around.
Hannah Clark (32:14):
Yeah, I think that, that show of good faith
is very powerful and just,leveling with people that you're
aware of the concerns and thatit's a signal to be attentive
and invitation for furtherand very honest feedback.
So I, yeah, I appreciatethat answer as well.
Our last question is from Yaron.
What are some strategiesthat we can use to mitigate
some of those challengeswith regards to communication
throughout the org chart?
Carolyn Dolez (32:35):
Couple of things.
I think there's quantitativeways to gather feedback, and
I know that's really popularand you can get numbers,
but I personally find thatqualitative feedback is really
helpful because you can godeeper and get richer and some
nuances that you might nothave otherwise thought about.
So offering some space for that.
And this is, I don't know,it's, maybe it's my Midwestern,
middle class upbringing.
(32:56):
But if there's a way to sharea meal with somebody or like
host a breakfast thing or, andI find smaller groups, people
are sometimes feel freer totalk in smaller groups than
if they're in a big group.
Somehow there's adinnertime diplomacy.
If you can talk overfood, I think that helps.
And then leaving that spaceand then do not under any
circumstance, act rushed.
If you allow half an hour forthe conversation, don't block
(33:17):
anything on your calendar afterthat because you don't wanna be
like, okay, hurry up and thenlet me get outta here 'cause
then people will withdraw.
Those are some things Ithink that are helpful to
get some depth, to understandwhat's on their mind.
And usually it's the lasttwo minutes where you hear
what they're really thinking.
The rest of it's preambleand warm up, but in the
last two minutes they'lldeliver the payload of
information you're looking for.
Hannah Clark (33:36):
I love this tip.
Thank you again to ourpanelists, Kate and Carolyn.
This is wonderful to have youhere and I really appreciate
the gift of your insightsthat you shared with us today.
Kate Leto (33:44):
Thank you.
Hannah Clark (33:48):
Thanks for listening in.
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