October 21, 2025 • 30 mins
Every product team faces the same monster: conversion optimization. But in 2025, the game has changed. With AI agents influencing discovery and AEO (Answer Engine Optimization) reshaping how people (and machines) interpret messaging, teams are now marketing to both human and agentic audiences.
In this episode, Hannah Clark sits down with Chris Silvestri, founder of Conversion Alchemy, to unpack how product teams can use psychology and UX insights to craft messaging that drives both adoption and retention. A former software engineer turned conversion strategist, Chris explains how understanding human decision-making—and now machine reasoning—can help product leaders turn features into irresistible outcomes.
Resources from this episode:
- Subscribe to The CPO Club newsletter
- Connect with Chris on LinkedIn
- Check out Conversion Alchemy
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah Clark (00:01):
Every product-led organization, no matter how
exceptional their portfolio,shares the same ongoing
battle, optimizing conversions.
And when it comes to messagingfor growth, adoption and
retention, changes in userneeds and behaviors have
always kept us on our toes.
But now, with AEO dominatingsearch and AI agents joining
the workforce in mass, it feelslike we're doing battle with
(00:22):
a mythical Hydra, optimizingfor both human and agentic
brains at the same time.
And while it may indeedseem like a Herculean
task, you have more toolsthan ever to win the war.
You just need toknow how to use them.
My guest today is ChrisSilvestri, founder of
Conversion Alchemy, a firmthat helps companies craft
messaging with a UX andpsychology informed approach.
Chris is a former softwareengineer, so he's got a
(00:44):
knack for merging rightbrain marketing thinking
with left brain analysisand development methods.
You'll hear him debunk thewrong assumptions that stifle
acquisition channels, decodethe frameworks that can help
your value proposition landwith all of your audiences,
and discern the elements ofmessaging that are costing
you dearly to overlook.
Let's jump in.
(01:04):
Oh, by the way, we holdconversations like this
every week, so if thissounds interesting to
you, why not subscribe?
Okay, now let's jump in.
Chris, thank you forjoining me today.
Chris Silvestri (01:15):
Hey Hannah! Thank you so much for having me.
Excited to be here.
Hannah Clark (01:18):
Yeah, excited to talk about this topic.
So before we get started, canyou tell us a little bit about
your background and how yougot to where you are today?
Chris Silvestri (01:25):
Yeah, so it's a bit of a weird background.
I was a software engineer,industrial automation.
I did that for 10 years,and then I wanted something
more flexible, so I startedlearning marketing, did a
couple of different things.
I worked at an agency asUX lead, and then in 2021.
Still passionate aboutcopywriting, which I started
back then I decided to foundconversion Alchemy 2021.
(01:48):
It's basically my combinationof copywriting, user
experience, and psychology.
All different skills that I'velearned throughout the years,
you know, different backgrounds.
Hannah Clark (01:59):
So today we're gonna be talking about buyer
psychology, which is a superinteresting topic for me.
I think that this is likesomething that connects
to just about every role.
Marketing for sure.
But we're talking toproduct leaders here.
So when we're talking aboutbuilding features that users
want, there's usually a gapbetween what people say that
they want and what actuallydrives them to convert.
So what would you say are thebiggest misconceptions that you
(02:19):
see product teams having aboutbuyer psychology specifically?
Chris Silvestri (02:22):
Yeah, so as you said, lots of features.
Features is a big focus, and Ithink that the problem is that
they also think that peoplebuy on features when in reality
it's all about the outcomes thatthey get from those features.
I'm not talking strictly aboutmessaging or marketing around
benefits over features, butit's actually understanding
(02:45):
that people don't really lookat your features standalone as
like packages, but they considerthem as part of a conversation
that they're having differenttrade-offs that they're making.
So it's important to lookat what those features get
them, and not only whatthose features do for them.
Another one is probably thata lot of product people, from
(03:06):
what I've seen when I jumpinto working with companies
is that when it comes toresearch, they do a lot of great
product development research.
They ask, okay, what featuresdid you value the most?
What would you want to see next?
And they don't dig enoughinto the decision making
process, which, yes, it'ssuper helpful for marketing.
But I think it can also beof massive value to product
(03:27):
people, understanding howpeople make decisions, why
they come to conclude that Dr.
Product is the rightchoice for them.
And so I think digging intothe decision making process
and the psychology behind it,it's probably super valuable
for product people as well.
Hannah Clark (03:42):
Yeah.
That makes sense.
It sounds to me kinda likeyou're saying that they're
looking more at what wasgonna appeal to existing
customers versus like whatkind of things do you need
to know about people who arepotential prospects, yeah.
Okay.
I think that we'd agree thatfiguring out how to drive
conversion is kind of likethe biggest make or break
challenge that product thatorganizations will face.
So what are some of themost common conversion
(04:02):
optimization mistakes thatyou see product teams making
and what tends to be missing?
Chris Silvestri (04:07):
So one I think stems from kind of
misalignment or the disconnectbetween marketing and product.
Which is the fact thatmessaging, but also the
experience is probably thatthere's like gap between the
marketing side of things and theproduct also between the user
experiencing, for example, thewebsite and then the onboarding
(04:27):
or the in-product experience.
A lot of times what I'm seeing,because I run a lot of usability
testing on the marketingside of things as well.
What I'm seeing is thatthere's a lot of like.
Wrong expectations created bythe marketing for people going
into the product, or vice versa.
So people who are into theproduct who are expecting
something that wereprobably misaligned with
(04:49):
what we're seeing now.
And so that's kind of thatwe are disconnect between
marketing and product.
Another one is probably relyingon AB testing without actual
questions to answer or liketesting random things bit
randomly, right without plan.
The other one, which is hugefrom normal branding agencies,
(05:10):
but I also see it for, whenit comes to product, people
who actually have to maybebuild some pages or work on
product, which is the copyusually comes after the design
when a lot of times it shouldactually guide and inform the
design and the experience.
Hannah Clark (05:26):
Yeah.
As someone with the backgroundin marketing seen a lot of
that, then that presentsa very specific challenge.
So I'm really curiousabout this psychology that
you've mentioned before.
'cause you'd mentionedthat's a big part of what
the work that you're doing.
So when it comes to bioppsychology, when someone is
evaluating, say like a B2BSaaS product or solution,
what's really happening intheir mind when they're making
(05:48):
these critical decisions?
Like in the lead up to signingup or making a purchase?
Chris Silvestri (05:53):
Yeah, so I like to think as, and them having a
conversation inside their heads.
So they're already askingthemselves question
like, is this for me?
Do I trust these people?
Do I believe.
Myself as well.
Like, do I have theskills or do I have enough
knowledge to be able to usethis product successfully?
And so it's all about themhaving this conversation.
And then when they land onyour website or the pricing
(06:14):
page or start the onboarding,it's this conversation that
keeps on going and either movesthem forward, pushes them, or
kind of prevents them and missthem with friction, right?
So it's all about, I think,understanding that conversation
and you do it with all theresearch that we typically do.
Which again brings us back tothat decision making process
and understanding all of that.
(06:34):
Another great framework that Ilike always using in my research
is I learned from Bob Mata, theone of the ideators of the job
to be done framework theory.
And so he talks all about thethree sources of energy or
motivation, which is functional.
So what does theproduct do Emotional.
(06:55):
How does the product make mefeel and the social one, how
does the product impact the waythat I relate to other people?
So it's important to understandthose people are kind of
considering those energysources, those are the energy
sources that push them intoactually making that decision.
And so it's super importantto understand those.
Then you have the fourforces of progress.
(07:18):
So whenever you make a decision,you have these conflicting
forces that are pullingand pushing you, and this
a content battle going on.
You have the push of the currentsituation, which can be a pain
or problem you're experiencing.
Then the magnetismof the new solution.
So you are starting to considernew solution and you see, okay,
(07:38):
this product can do this for me.
So maybe it's timefor me to evaluate and
start considering it.
So it's pulling me, and thenyou have the anxiety of this
new solution because at thesame time, this new solution
could be hard to switch to,or maybe you are not ready
for it for this technology.
So it, it's solve considerationsthat you're taking into account.
(08:00):
And then there's also thehabit of the present, what
you are already doing, right?
So it's all aboutconsidering the switching
costs and the trade offsthat you need to make.
And so.
When you start thinkingof about it this way, so
this conversation, theseforces all conflicting.
Then you start askingyourself, okay, how can I truly
understand what's going on here?
(08:22):
What questions do I need to askmyself so that their experience
is seamless between startingthat decision, taking that
decision, and also after thedecision moving to onboarding,
to using the product.
So, yeah, this is the waythat I think about it.
There's actually a supersimple simplified framework
(08:42):
that I come up with.
It's mostly because I'm a musclecar fanatic, and so I call
it the MPG, so like miles pergallon, like you have a fuel
efficiencies like fuel economy.
You should also have fueleconomy for your messaging.
Your messaging should take youas far as possible, and with
M, I mean you should matchthe motivation of your people.
(09:05):
With a P is you shouldprove your value and also
prove that other people likeyour SAP use the product.
Then the G is, you shouldguide them through making
the decision and also afterconfirming to them that they
made the right decision.
So this is just a quickmemory useful mnemonic
(09:25):
device that I came up with.
Hannah Clark (09:27):
That's really useful.
And it actually, that to mefeels like it kind of connects
to something we talked aboutin our previous episode, which
was all about how people learn,like the psychology of learning
and acquiring new information.
And I'm kind of seeingkind of a connect because.
In that episode with MaxineAnderson, who's the CPO of
Aris, we were talking abouthow when someone is open to
(09:47):
learning information is usuallybecause they've reached a
point where they're in themoment of critical need, where
they actually feel like thatinformation is contextually
relevant to what they're doing.
And I kind of feel likethere's something there about
optimizing your approach sothat not only your messaging
kind of matches that specificneed or that information that
they contextually seek, butalso the moment to purchase
or the right kind of context.
(10:08):
Like, kind of to supplementwhat you just said, is
there a sort of optimizationguidance that you would give?
In terms of like, where shouldyou be delivering your messages?
Like how do you kind of findthe right contextual moment to
reach your user when they'rereceptive to that messaging?
Chris Silvestri (10:23):
Yeah, so one thing that I like to
do to understand that, soknowing where and how to do
it, it's like can vary a lot.
But to understand, at leastto get some insight, I like
to do these like thank youpage surveys, for example.
So right after someone signs up.
You could ask them, okay,now that you can use this
product, what's the firstthing that you are going to do?
(10:45):
Or what was happeningthat led you to sign up?
And you can do the samewith simple website falls on
pricing pages, for example.
And ask people, what bringsyou to the page today?
Or do you have anyquestions that haven't
been answered on the page?
Or you can do it on exit intent.
So all these different littlemoments you can start collecting
that information that onceput together can actually give
(11:07):
you a lot of insight into.
How to personalize andcustomize the master for
that specific moment.
Hannah Clark (11:13):
Cool.
Alright, well thankyou for answering that.
'cause I was a little curiousabout how you timed that.
I wanna talk a little bitmore about what you said
about the role of researchin driving conversions.
Kind of like theresearch portion of
being really effectiveat marketing a product.
Can you walk us through whatdoes foundational research
look like for product teamsin like more of a selling and
buyer decision making context?
Chris Silvestri (11:34):
Yeah.
The first kind of underlyingprinciple, I would say we
should start with the problemrather than the feature list.
Again, as I mentioned earlier,first understanding, okay,
these are the problem, thisis the situation, the decision
making process, but why?
Why is this happening?
Asking deeper, more probingquestions and also a lot of
(11:55):
times from what I'm seeing,product people are focused a
lot on quantitative research,which I know final analytics,
heat maps, session recordings,which is great and I use it a
lot for messaging, but I willalso focus a lot on qualitative
research, as I mentioned.
So interviewing customers,looking at sales and
(12:15):
support chat transcripts.
Or I don't know, interviewswith people who churned review
mining, so all things that Ido for messaging, but I think
they can be super valuable forproduct people as well, because
they give you insight on whypeople do something and also
what kind language they use.
And you can actually usethat inside the product as
(12:36):
well for your UX microcopy.
That's probably a good pieceto start from, but also I
like to look at research inthree layers, which is kind
of a system that I think onceestablished, implemented,
can kinda run continuously,and it can be super valuable
to keep in touch with youraudience and kind of understand
(12:57):
how you think in sequence.
So the first layer is kindof the more surface layer, so
understanding what people say.
To me, that's allvoice of customer data.
So again, reviews or ifyou already have sales
call recordings, supportchats, all of that.
Second layer is more ofthe structural layer, so
understanding what peopledo on the website, which
(13:18):
user heat maps, userrecordings, product analytics.
Then the final isthe qualitative.
So I would start with thevoice of customer, which
is the easiest to collectbecause you already have
it inside the company.
Then start tracking those,that behavioral data, and
then do the qualitative datawith this kind of sequence.
(13:38):
Doing the best that you can atevery stage kind of keeps you
in touch with your customers andit's a good way to supplement
your product research thatyou're already doing, I think.
Hannah Clark (13:47):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So let's get into storytellingtime because I feel like
a lot of this stuff we'retalking about stuff more
in a theory context.
It's kind of helpful to sortof put this into perspective
using like a specific example.
So have you worked with aclient for example, where
helping them understandtheir buyer psychology really
changed how they positiontheir product or feature?
Tell me a little bitabout like, how this has
(14:09):
kind of come to life.
Chris Silvestri (14:10):
Yeah, so I actually have a couple
example, but I want to makea product led growth example
just because product peoplemight be a bit useful, more
useful than a sales led one.
And so when I work withthe Moz SEO on their Moz
Pro product positioningand messaging and most API
products, so both products.
(14:31):
So the company gotacquired a while ago and
so it got a bit lost.
They were kind of consideredone of the more established SEO
players in the industry, butstill they were getting a bit
more, more of like, antiquatedperception from the audience.
And so when I jumped in.
My goal was to kind ofunderstand, okay, in this
(14:51):
current situation of themarket, how should Moz position
themselves for these twospecific products and for
the audience that were kindof using them, their buyers.
And so when we jump in,we conducted positioning,
workshop, messaging framework.
We wrote the copy for thepages of the two products,
and there were two things,one thing per product that
(15:12):
we actually understood thatwasn't being reflected.
Which was the firstone for Moz Pro.
They were messaging it asthe all-in-one SEO platform,
which is what a lot of thesemega platforms do typically.
And so everyone was biting thesaying the same thing, right?
What we found by speaking withcustomers, which would also
(15:34):
a thing that changed a lotfor them just because they
haven't done some interviewsin the recent past as well.
So we wanna refreshthat insight.
Speaking with people, werealized, okay, the best buyers
actually use Moz Pro becausethey want to simplify their SEO.
They want to make it simpler.
They are not ICO expertsor massive agencies.
(15:56):
It's mostly in-house people who,when they open up their Moz Pro
dashboard, they realize that,wow, this is super easy to use.
I can actually understandwhat my next step
are in the workflow.
Versus another platformsmaybe, I don't know,
like compared to Ahref.
So we just got a hundredthousand features and you
can do literally anything.
It's super technical.
(16:17):
So that was a very goodunderstanding in the sense
that, okay, we don't needto sell everything here.
We need to sell thesimplicity of Moz and
what it does for people.
And so that wasone with the API.
Again, similar process.
We started speaking withtheir customer, which
in this case were a lotabout enterprise as well.
But at the same time theydidn't really care about
(16:40):
specific use cases of theAPI, what they wanted the most
from Moz API, just becauseof all the history the Moz
had behind the shoulders.
Was the trusted datathat the API was using.
So again, we positionMoz API product around
the trusted Moz data.
(17:00):
And so that's why on thepage, if you look at it now,
you'll see it's positionedaround trusted data.
You'll see a secondarylink that leads to their.
API specific data page.
So all the journey is customizedto kind of promote that specific
positioning and messaging.
I think these are good examplesof, okay, you, maybe you
have an assumption becausemaybe the company has been
(17:23):
moving forward in the pastyears, almost automatically on
autopilot, but it doesn't meanthat it's the right assumption.
So go back to the drawingboard, speak to people and kind
of understand what are theirdeeper needs, what are the
things that they resonate on.
A lot of times some productpeople might already kind of
intuitively know them becausewhen I speak to product
people, they kind of knowthem, but then they don't
(17:44):
communicate it to marketing.
So there's this all misalignmentthat if everybody at the
company was aligned, they,the message would reflect
that on the website as well.
Hannah Clark (17:53):
I have to say I'm, I particularly appreciate
the first example that yougave about like just modifying
the feel of the language fromlike being almost overwhelming,
like it does everything, youknow, every feature under
the sun to like it simplifiesbecause that's, I think, a
huge psychological shift.
I feel like this is a hugesin that I see all the
time on product homepageand that kind of thing
where they just kind of.
(18:14):
Blast you with features that arekind of vaguely described and a
lot of jargon about, you know.
Chris S (18:20):
Especially now with AI.
Hannah Clark (18:22):
Yeah, of course.
Like, you know, it's justlike you see a lot of the same
buzzwords that I feel like atthis point have kind of lost
meaning, which I think, okay.
This kind of segues wellinto the next thing I wanna
ask about, which is actuallylike user behavior having
shifted with AI tools.
So, you know, ChatGPT, it'sobviously changing how people
search for things, how thepeople evaluate things.
But I also feel like it'salso creating a little bit of
(18:43):
friction in terms of what wordscarry any weight anymore when
a buyer sees it on a webpage.
For example, like whenI see the word optimize,
I kind of shut down.
'cause I'm like, of course.
You know?
So how would you say that,you know, in broad stroke.
What are some of the majortrends that you've seen
in terms of the changesto buyer psychology that
product teams need to beadapting to right now?
Chris Silvestri (19:03):
Yeah, so it's an interesting one because the
first one, I think it's kindof, I don't want say a bias,
but a mental shortcut in a way,which is that if you think about
when people go on ChatGPT andsearch for it, or even just
use it for their own work.
A lot of times people value theconvenience of using ChatGPT for
(19:25):
search or for work more than theactual quality of the response.
And so in that case, you haveto be good enough with your
messaging, with your marketing.
Putting your messagingand positioning out there
strongly enough so thatChatGPT grabs your message
and then spreads the wordin a way to people using
(19:46):
ChatGPT strongly enough anddifferentiated enough so that
people can actually understand.
Just because people arebasically shutting down their
brains and they basicallytrust everything that
ChatGPT promotes them, right?
So that's one.
And the other one is, as I wassaying at the beginning, you
should think of people havingthis conversation inside their
heads about their product.
(20:07):
Now people are having aconversation with ChatGPT
even before they'llend on your website.
And so you basicallyneed to understand that
conversation as well.
So it's kind of, it's morecomplex decision making
process gets even more complex.
There's a couple of ways,both on the SEO or AEO, AGO,
I dunno what they're callednow, the different terms, but
(20:28):
also on the marketing messagingresearch side of things.
Like for example,one simple thing.
Even just using testing,different AI reasoning models
and looking at their reasoningprocess, you start seeing, okay,
what is the LLM asking itselfand where is it going to search?
And you can also extractthe questions that
(20:49):
it's asking itself inthis reasoning process.
So that's super helpfulfor kind of stepping into
that conversation thatpeople might have with AI.
Yeah.
The other one is.
That you basically haveto also write for another
audience rather than your SAP,which is the agent audience.
Yeah.
Which is a lot of people,especially for testing product,
(21:10):
might start using agents as wellthat go through your website.
You go through your app andtest it, and so in a way you
have to make sure that yourmessaging and your design,
your experience also workfor these kinds of agents.
So definitely aninteresting times to be
alive and play things.
Hannah Clark (21:28):
Yeah, I use that exact phrase all the time.
So it's an amazing timeto be alive, isn't it?
Okay.
So let's talk a little bit moreabout agent experience, because
this is, like, this is a wholenew discipline area of expertise
that, I mean, like, no one canreally claim themselves to be
a thorough expert because thisit's not really a firm science
that's, and it's changingso constantly, but as far
(21:48):
as you know, best practices.
At this moment in time, inthis week of September of 2025.
What have you seen as far as,you know, shifts that kind
of seem to make a positiveimpact around agent experience?
Chris Silvestri (22:02):
Yeah, so the first one, it's try to
make your, at least for themessaging side or usability,
to make everything as clearas possible and readable by
machines in a way as well.
So all the meta content,make sure that it's
in order, but also.
Balancing those features andbenefits properly in a way that
(22:23):
you provide the facts and thatthe fluff is completely removed.
And so in a way that'salways been good
copywriting practice, right?
So at least now that now it'sforcing us to do it better.
Just because these machines arefaster than us going through
websites, they don't need tospend a lot of time to kind
of extract the data they need.
(22:44):
And the other one is, I'mstarting to think of messaging
more as kind of infrastructureas something that you kind
of install in a company andneeds to basically flow.
Through different channels,through different assets.
And so it's important tobe even more consistent
with your message acrossall your channels.
(23:05):
Product marketing, side,shades, collateral, anything.
Just because once these agentsstart circulating and navigating
around, as soon as they startseeing some disconnect in your
messaging, then they're probablygonna go to a competitor
who's doing it better andusing that as the main source.
Consistency.
Super important, I think.
(23:26):
And also the other one, whichhas always been something that
I talked about, it's the UX ofcopy or the hi the messaging
hierarchy on your website.
So making sure that you havethe right pages for the right
ICPs on your website that.
The navigation flowswell, and that's all.
Again, going back to thatstructural research, the looking
(23:47):
at user recordings, eat maps,understanding how people use
your website or navigate throughwebsite or use your product.
That's all super valuableto kind of understand as
well how these agents work.
And the other one isprobably something even
more fundamental, I think,which is your positioning.
So the stronger your positioningis and your specific point
(24:07):
of view, the better I think.
The higher chances you haveto stand out and to make sure
that these agents actually getthe gist of what you do in the
right way for the right people.
And so having a strong pointof view what's that insight
that only you have on themarket, on your customers, on
the competition that actuallymade you build your product?
(24:30):
Right?
So yeah, I would saythese are the main things
that I'm thinking about.
Hannah Clark (24:34):
I'm very curious about this because
I foresee at this pointall these predictions.
Who can say, but I kind of seethis trend of, especially in
B2B agents being the primarydecision maker, or at least the
primary kind of filter for, youknow, what are the decisions
that a business needs to makein terms of tooling, in terms of
solutions, in terms of services.
Because they can just evaluatethe information with a lot more
(24:57):
objectivity and a lot faster.
But I still think thatthere is a place for.
Making a, let's say, a moreemotional connection with
a buyer, with a consumer,and especially with B2C.
You know, like when you'retalking to a B2B client,
you're trying to get them thesolution that they want at
the price that they want, withthe features that they need.
And a lot of that is negotiable.
When you're talking about B2C,you're talking about a product
(25:19):
that you want people to kind ofintegrate into their life, and
there has to be a certain way tobuild affinity with the buyer.
So how do you kind of balance.
Kinda what you're describingthis agent experience, which
is really focused on deliveringthings in a way that's easily
processed by machines andeasily understood versus kind
of like this liminal space wherethere's like that fluff that you
(25:40):
described is also kind of theplace where we sort of establish
a personality in a POV.
How do you kind of balancethose things out and kind
of determine what's likethe percentage of experience
versus human connectionthat you wanna integrate.
Chris Silvestri (25:53):
To me, I think it's always been
about understanding whereyou fit in like how new or
establish your solution isyour category and your market.
Once you understand, okay,my solution is a new solution
in established market, or I'man established solution in an
established market, establishedsolution, new market,
(26:13):
whatever the combination is.
Then you can basically andit's the exact thing that I
do in my messaging framework.
I have a literally a tablethat based on where you fit,
whether you are establishedsolution in a new market.
Or vice versa.
It gives you the percentagesof benefits versus the features
versus the differentiatorsthat you should use in
(26:34):
your copy, and that'sbasically how I balance it.
I have literally threesections and in one sections,
for example, if you arekind of a new solution or
established market, then youhave to explain the benefits.
What's the benefit?
'cause the feature maybe alreadyestablished differentiator of
maybe you don't have allowed.
If you are established solutionand established market, then
(26:55):
you have to be heavier on thedifferentiators, secondary
benefits, and then features.
So I think it's findingout where you're at in
terms of solution, categoryand market maturity.
Then figuring out how to splitthose three main copy elements.
Hannah Clark (27:12):
I love a scientific approach
to copywriting.
This is.
Chris Silvestri (27:15):
I'm a former engineer.
I had to turn it into system.
Hannah Clark (27:19):
You are probably one of the few
people in your craft who islike really coming at this
as such a data-driven way.
Like a lot of copywritersI know are just like,
what speaks to my heart?
Chris Silvestri (27:27):
Yes.
Creative.
Hannah Clark (27:28):
Such a cool POV.
So anyway, since I alreadybroke the seal as far as
looking at predictionsand that kind of thing.
Without putting too muchstock in it because we,
who knows what's gonnahappen in two months.
What would you say is like apiece of advice that you'd give
to folks about staying aheadof psychological and behavioral
changes as far as what you'rekind of seeing trends wise and
predictably when it comes toshifts in AI and agent use?
Chris Silvestri (27:51):
I would say rather than chasing trends,
I would say go back to yourmarket territory your ICP,
like it's the most fundamentaltip, but especially now with
AI and the speed at which wecan collect information and
also analyze information.
It's what I was saying before.
If you install a kind of aresearch system and I call
(28:12):
it research optimizationsystem, those three layers
that I talked about.
If you make it a consistentpractice inside the
organization, run itconsistently and co consistently
collect fresh data, like beingin touch with your audience
is actually what dictateseverything else, I think.
And so, okay.
It's important to, to lookat the trends, but again, I
would still anchor everythinginto the knowledge of the ICP.
Hannah Clark (28:36):
Yeah, I guess so.
And I really like thistakeaway of we are writing
for a different ICP now, likewe have to start thinking
about agents as an audienceand not just as a tool.
Which is like a huge paradigmshift in terms of how we
think about reaching people,but I feel like that's
such a huge golden nuggetfor this conversation.
And speaking of thisconversation, thank you so much
for sharing these insights.
(28:56):
This is like such a coolthing to dissect in this way.
We've talked a little bitabout a lot of marketing
strategy related topicsbefore, but this is, I feel
like the first time we'vereally looked at things from a
really data first perspective.
So, where can peoplehear more about this?
Where can people findyou online, Chris?
Chris Silvestri (29:12):
Yeah.
Thank you so much, Hannah.
It's been super awesome andI feel like I hated a bit on
too much on product people,but hopefully not because I
love product people and I alsolike from my UX experience and
watching hundreds of usabilitytests, I feel their pain.
So I always try to help them.
But yeah, people can findme at conversionalchemy.net
to my website whereI have a newsletter.
(29:32):
Or mostly on LinkedIn.
I'm there chatting, postingabout everything that
I learned, and so yeah,feel free to connect.
Hannah Clark (29:39):
Sounds great.
Well, thank you so muchfor making the time.
Chris Silvestri (29:41):
Thank you.
Every product-led organization, no matter how
exceptional their portfolio,shares the same ongoing
battle, optimizing conversions.
And when it comes to messagingfor growth, adoption and
retention, changes in userneeds and behaviors have
always kept us on our toes.
But now, with AEO dominatingsearch and AI agents joining
the workforce in mass, it feelslike we're doing battle with
(00:22):
a mythical Hydra, optimizingfor both human and agentic
brains at the same time.
And while it may indeedseem like a Herculean
task, you have more toolsthan ever to win the war.
You just need toknow how to use them.
My guest today is ChrisSilvestri, founder of
Conversion Alchemy, a firmthat helps companies craft
messaging with a UX andpsychology informed approach.
Chris is a former softwareengineer, so he's got a
(00:44):
knack for merging rightbrain marketing thinking
with left brain analysisand development methods.
You'll hear him debunk thewrong assumptions that stifle
acquisition channels, decodethe frameworks that can help
your value proposition landwith all of your audiences,
and discern the elements ofmessaging that are costing
you dearly to overlook.
Let's jump in.
(01:04):
Oh, by the way, we holdconversations like this
every week, so if thissounds interesting to
you, why not subscribe?
Okay, now let's jump in.
Chris, thank you forjoining me today.
Chris Silvestri (01:15):
Hey Hannah! Thank you so much for having me.
Excited to be here.
Hannah Clark (01:18):
Yeah, excited to talk about this topic.
So before we get started, canyou tell us a little bit about
your background and how yougot to where you are today?
Chris Silvestri (01:25):
Yeah, so it's a bit of a weird background.
I was a software engineer,industrial automation.
I did that for 10 years,and then I wanted something
more flexible, so I startedlearning marketing, did a
couple of different things.
I worked at an agency asUX lead, and then in 2021.
Still passionate aboutcopywriting, which I started
back then I decided to foundconversion Alchemy 2021.
(01:48):
It's basically my combinationof copywriting, user
experience, and psychology.
All different skills that I'velearned throughout the years,
you know, different backgrounds.
Hannah Clark (01:59):
So today we're gonna be talking about buyer
psychology, which is a superinteresting topic for me.
I think that this is likesomething that connects
to just about every role.
Marketing for sure.
But we're talking toproduct leaders here.
So when we're talking aboutbuilding features that users
want, there's usually a gapbetween what people say that
they want and what actuallydrives them to convert.
So what would you say are thebiggest misconceptions that you
(02:19):
see product teams having aboutbuyer psychology specifically?
Chris Silvestri (02:22):
Yeah, so as you said, lots of features.
Features is a big focus, and Ithink that the problem is that
they also think that peoplebuy on features when in reality
it's all about the outcomes thatthey get from those features.
I'm not talking strictly aboutmessaging or marketing around
benefits over features, butit's actually understanding
(02:45):
that people don't really lookat your features standalone as
like packages, but they considerthem as part of a conversation
that they're having differenttrade-offs that they're making.
So it's important to lookat what those features get
them, and not only whatthose features do for them.
Another one is probably thata lot of product people, from
(03:06):
what I've seen when I jumpinto working with companies
is that when it comes toresearch, they do a lot of great
product development research.
They ask, okay, what featuresdid you value the most?
What would you want to see next?
And they don't dig enoughinto the decision making
process, which, yes, it'ssuper helpful for marketing.
But I think it can also beof massive value to product
(03:27):
people, understanding howpeople make decisions, why
they come to conclude that Dr.
Product is the rightchoice for them.
And so I think digging intothe decision making process
and the psychology behind it,it's probably super valuable
for product people as well.
Hannah Clark (03:42):
Yeah.
That makes sense.
It sounds to me kinda likeyou're saying that they're
looking more at what wasgonna appeal to existing
customers versus like whatkind of things do you need
to know about people who arepotential prospects, yeah.
Okay.
I think that we'd agree thatfiguring out how to drive
conversion is kind of likethe biggest make or break
challenge that product thatorganizations will face.
So what are some of themost common conversion
(04:02):
optimization mistakes thatyou see product teams making
and what tends to be missing?
Chris Silvestri (04:07):
So one I think stems from kind of
misalignment or the disconnectbetween marketing and product.
Which is the fact thatmessaging, but also the
experience is probably thatthere's like gap between the
marketing side of things and theproduct also between the user
experiencing, for example, thewebsite and then the onboarding
(04:27):
or the in-product experience.
A lot of times what I'm seeing,because I run a lot of usability
testing on the marketingside of things as well.
What I'm seeing is thatthere's a lot of like.
Wrong expectations created bythe marketing for people going
into the product, or vice versa.
So people who are into theproduct who are expecting
something that wereprobably misaligned with
(04:49):
what we're seeing now.
And so that's kind of thatwe are disconnect between
marketing and product.
Another one is probably relyingon AB testing without actual
questions to answer or liketesting random things bit
randomly, right without plan.
The other one, which is hugefrom normal branding agencies,
(05:10):
but I also see it for, whenit comes to product, people
who actually have to maybebuild some pages or work on
product, which is the copyusually comes after the design
when a lot of times it shouldactually guide and inform the
design and the experience.
Hannah Clark (05:26):
Yeah.
As someone with the backgroundin marketing seen a lot of
that, then that presentsa very specific challenge.
So I'm really curiousabout this psychology that
you've mentioned before.
'cause you'd mentionedthat's a big part of what
the work that you're doing.
So when it comes to bioppsychology, when someone is
evaluating, say like a B2BSaaS product or solution,
what's really happening intheir mind when they're making
(05:48):
these critical decisions?
Like in the lead up to signingup or making a purchase?
Chris Silvestri (05:53):
Yeah, so I like to think as, and them having a
conversation inside their heads.
So they're already askingthemselves question
like, is this for me?
Do I trust these people?
Do I believe.
Myself as well.
Like, do I have theskills or do I have enough
knowledge to be able to usethis product successfully?
And so it's all about themhaving this conversation.
And then when they land onyour website or the pricing
(06:14):
page or start the onboarding,it's this conversation that
keeps on going and either movesthem forward, pushes them, or
kind of prevents them and missthem with friction, right?
So it's all about, I think,understanding that conversation
and you do it with all theresearch that we typically do.
Which again brings us back tothat decision making process
and understanding all of that.
(06:34):
Another great framework that Ilike always using in my research
is I learned from Bob Mata, theone of the ideators of the job
to be done framework theory.
And so he talks all about thethree sources of energy or
motivation, which is functional.
So what does theproduct do Emotional.
(06:55):
How does the product make mefeel and the social one, how
does the product impact the waythat I relate to other people?
So it's important to understandthose people are kind of
considering those energysources, those are the energy
sources that push them intoactually making that decision.
And so it's super importantto understand those.
Then you have the fourforces of progress.
(07:18):
So whenever you make a decision,you have these conflicting
forces that are pullingand pushing you, and this
a content battle going on.
You have the push of the currentsituation, which can be a pain
or problem you're experiencing.
Then the magnetismof the new solution.
So you are starting to considernew solution and you see, okay,
(07:38):
this product can do this for me.
So maybe it's timefor me to evaluate and
start considering it.
So it's pulling me, and thenyou have the anxiety of this
new solution because at thesame time, this new solution
could be hard to switch to,or maybe you are not ready
for it for this technology.
So it, it's solve considerationsthat you're taking into account.
(08:00):
And then there's also thehabit of the present, what
you are already doing, right?
So it's all aboutconsidering the switching
costs and the trade offsthat you need to make.
And so.
When you start thinkingof about it this way, so
this conversation, theseforces all conflicting.
Then you start askingyourself, okay, how can I truly
understand what's going on here?
(08:22):
What questions do I need to askmyself so that their experience
is seamless between startingthat decision, taking that
decision, and also after thedecision moving to onboarding,
to using the product.
So, yeah, this is the waythat I think about it.
There's actually a supersimple simplified framework
(08:42):
that I come up with.
It's mostly because I'm a musclecar fanatic, and so I call
it the MPG, so like miles pergallon, like you have a fuel
efficiencies like fuel economy.
You should also have fueleconomy for your messaging.
Your messaging should take youas far as possible, and with
M, I mean you should matchthe motivation of your people.
(09:05):
With a P is you shouldprove your value and also
prove that other people likeyour SAP use the product.
Then the G is, you shouldguide them through making
the decision and also afterconfirming to them that they
made the right decision.
So this is just a quickmemory useful mnemonic
(09:25):
device that I came up with.
Hannah Clark (09:27):
That's really useful.
And it actually, that to mefeels like it kind of connects
to something we talked aboutin our previous episode, which
was all about how people learn,like the psychology of learning
and acquiring new information.
And I'm kind of seeingkind of a connect because.
In that episode with MaxineAnderson, who's the CPO of
Aris, we were talking abouthow when someone is open to
(09:47):
learning information is usuallybecause they've reached a
point where they're in themoment of critical need, where
they actually feel like thatinformation is contextually
relevant to what they're doing.
And I kind of feel likethere's something there about
optimizing your approach sothat not only your messaging
kind of matches that specificneed or that information that
they contextually seek, butalso the moment to purchase
or the right kind of context.
(10:08):
Like, kind of to supplementwhat you just said, is
there a sort of optimizationguidance that you would give?
In terms of like, where shouldyou be delivering your messages?
Like how do you kind of findthe right contextual moment to
reach your user when they'rereceptive to that messaging?
Chris Silvestri (10:23):
Yeah, so one thing that I like to
do to understand that, soknowing where and how to do
it, it's like can vary a lot.
But to understand, at leastto get some insight, I like
to do these like thank youpage surveys, for example.
So right after someone signs up.
You could ask them, okay,now that you can use this
product, what's the firstthing that you are going to do?
(10:45):
Or what was happeningthat led you to sign up?
And you can do the samewith simple website falls on
pricing pages, for example.
And ask people, what bringsyou to the page today?
Or do you have anyquestions that haven't
been answered on the page?
Or you can do it on exit intent.
So all these different littlemoments you can start collecting
that information that onceput together can actually give
(11:07):
you a lot of insight into.
How to personalize andcustomize the master for
that specific moment.
Hannah Clark (11:13):
Cool.
Alright, well thankyou for answering that.
'cause I was a little curiousabout how you timed that.
I wanna talk a little bitmore about what you said
about the role of researchin driving conversions.
Kind of like theresearch portion of
being really effectiveat marketing a product.
Can you walk us through whatdoes foundational research
look like for product teamsin like more of a selling and
buyer decision making context?
Chris Silvestri (11:34):
Yeah.
The first kind of underlyingprinciple, I would say we
should start with the problemrather than the feature list.
Again, as I mentioned earlier,first understanding, okay,
these are the problem, thisis the situation, the decision
making process, but why?
Why is this happening?
Asking deeper, more probingquestions and also a lot of
(11:55):
times from what I'm seeing,product people are focused a
lot on quantitative research,which I know final analytics,
heat maps, session recordings,which is great and I use it a
lot for messaging, but I willalso focus a lot on qualitative
research, as I mentioned.
So interviewing customers,looking at sales and
(12:15):
support chat transcripts.
Or I don't know, interviewswith people who churned review
mining, so all things that Ido for messaging, but I think
they can be super valuable forproduct people as well, because
they give you insight on whypeople do something and also
what kind language they use.
And you can actually usethat inside the product as
(12:36):
well for your UX microcopy.
That's probably a good pieceto start from, but also I
like to look at research inthree layers, which is kind
of a system that I think onceestablished, implemented,
can kinda run continuously,and it can be super valuable
to keep in touch with youraudience and kind of understand
(12:57):
how you think in sequence.
So the first layer is kindof the more surface layer, so
understanding what people say.
To me, that's allvoice of customer data.
So again, reviews or ifyou already have sales
call recordings, supportchats, all of that.
Second layer is more ofthe structural layer, so
understanding what peopledo on the website, which
(13:18):
user heat maps, userrecordings, product analytics.
Then the final isthe qualitative.
So I would start with thevoice of customer, which
is the easiest to collectbecause you already have
it inside the company.
Then start tracking those,that behavioral data, and
then do the qualitative datawith this kind of sequence.
(13:38):
Doing the best that you can atevery stage kind of keeps you
in touch with your customers andit's a good way to supplement
your product research thatyou're already doing, I think.
Hannah Clark (13:47):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So let's get into storytellingtime because I feel like
a lot of this stuff we'retalking about stuff more
in a theory context.
It's kind of helpful to sortof put this into perspective
using like a specific example.
So have you worked with aclient for example, where
helping them understandtheir buyer psychology really
changed how they positiontheir product or feature?
Tell me a little bitabout like, how this has
(14:09):
kind of come to life.
Chris Silvestri (14:10):
Yeah, so I actually have a couple
example, but I want to makea product led growth example
just because product peoplemight be a bit useful, more
useful than a sales led one.
And so when I work withthe Moz SEO on their Moz
Pro product positioningand messaging and most API
products, so both products.
(14:31):
So the company gotacquired a while ago and
so it got a bit lost.
They were kind of consideredone of the more established SEO
players in the industry, butstill they were getting a bit
more, more of like, antiquatedperception from the audience.
And so when I jumped in.
My goal was to kind ofunderstand, okay, in this
(14:51):
current situation of themarket, how should Moz position
themselves for these twospecific products and for
the audience that were kindof using them, their buyers.
And so when we jump in,we conducted positioning,
workshop, messaging framework.
We wrote the copy for thepages of the two products,
and there were two things,one thing per product that
(15:12):
we actually understood thatwasn't being reflected.
Which was the firstone for Moz Pro.
They were messaging it asthe all-in-one SEO platform,
which is what a lot of thesemega platforms do typically.
And so everyone was biting thesaying the same thing, right?
What we found by speaking withcustomers, which would also
(15:34):
a thing that changed a lotfor them just because they
haven't done some interviewsin the recent past as well.
So we wanna refreshthat insight.
Speaking with people, werealized, okay, the best buyers
actually use Moz Pro becausethey want to simplify their SEO.
They want to make it simpler.
They are not ICO expertsor massive agencies.
(15:56):
It's mostly in-house people who,when they open up their Moz Pro
dashboard, they realize that,wow, this is super easy to use.
I can actually understandwhat my next step
are in the workflow.
Versus another platformsmaybe, I don't know,
like compared to Ahref.
So we just got a hundredthousand features and you
can do literally anything.
It's super technical.
(16:17):
So that was a very goodunderstanding in the sense
that, okay, we don't needto sell everything here.
We need to sell thesimplicity of Moz and
what it does for people.
And so that wasone with the API.
Again, similar process.
We started speaking withtheir customer, which
in this case were a lotabout enterprise as well.
But at the same time theydidn't really care about
(16:40):
specific use cases of theAPI, what they wanted the most
from Moz API, just becauseof all the history the Moz
had behind the shoulders.
Was the trusted datathat the API was using.
So again, we positionMoz API product around
the trusted Moz data.
(17:00):
And so that's why on thepage, if you look at it now,
you'll see it's positionedaround trusted data.
You'll see a secondarylink that leads to their.
API specific data page.
So all the journey is customizedto kind of promote that specific
positioning and messaging.
I think these are good examplesof, okay, you, maybe you
have an assumption becausemaybe the company has been
(17:23):
moving forward in the pastyears, almost automatically on
autopilot, but it doesn't meanthat it's the right assumption.
So go back to the drawingboard, speak to people and kind
of understand what are theirdeeper needs, what are the
things that they resonate on.
A lot of times some productpeople might already kind of
intuitively know them becausewhen I speak to product
people, they kind of knowthem, but then they don't
(17:44):
communicate it to marketing.
So there's this all misalignmentthat if everybody at the
company was aligned, they,the message would reflect
that on the website as well.
Hannah Clark (17:53):
I have to say I'm, I particularly appreciate
the first example that yougave about like just modifying
the feel of the language fromlike being almost overwhelming,
like it does everything, youknow, every feature under
the sun to like it simplifiesbecause that's, I think, a
huge psychological shift.
I feel like this is a hugesin that I see all the
time on product homepageand that kind of thing
where they just kind of.
(18:14):
Blast you with features that arekind of vaguely described and a
lot of jargon about, you know.
Chris S (18:20):
Especially now with AI.
Hannah Clark (18:22):
Yeah, of course.
Like, you know, it's justlike you see a lot of the same
buzzwords that I feel like atthis point have kind of lost
meaning, which I think, okay.
This kind of segues wellinto the next thing I wanna
ask about, which is actuallylike user behavior having
shifted with AI tools.
So, you know, ChatGPT, it'sobviously changing how people
search for things, how thepeople evaluate things.
But I also feel like it'salso creating a little bit of
(18:43):
friction in terms of what wordscarry any weight anymore when
a buyer sees it on a webpage.
For example, like whenI see the word optimize,
I kind of shut down.
'cause I'm like, of course.
You know?
So how would you say that,you know, in broad stroke.
What are some of the majortrends that you've seen
in terms of the changesto buyer psychology that
product teams need to beadapting to right now?
Chris Silvestri (19:03):
Yeah, so it's an interesting one because the
first one, I think it's kindof, I don't want say a bias,
but a mental shortcut in a way,which is that if you think about
when people go on ChatGPT andsearch for it, or even just
use it for their own work.
A lot of times people value theconvenience of using ChatGPT for
(19:25):
search or for work more than theactual quality of the response.
And so in that case, you haveto be good enough with your
messaging, with your marketing.
Putting your messagingand positioning out there
strongly enough so thatChatGPT grabs your message
and then spreads the wordin a way to people using
(19:46):
ChatGPT strongly enough anddifferentiated enough so that
people can actually understand.
Just because people arebasically shutting down their
brains and they basicallytrust everything that
ChatGPT promotes them, right?
So that's one.
And the other one is, as I wassaying at the beginning, you
should think of people havingthis conversation inside their
heads about their product.
(20:07):
Now people are having aconversation with ChatGPT
even before they'llend on your website.
And so you basicallyneed to understand that
conversation as well.
So it's kind of, it's morecomplex decision making
process gets even more complex.
There's a couple of ways,both on the SEO or AEO, AGO,
I dunno what they're callednow, the different terms, but
(20:28):
also on the marketing messagingresearch side of things.
Like for example,one simple thing.
Even just using testing,different AI reasoning models
and looking at their reasoningprocess, you start seeing, okay,
what is the LLM asking itselfand where is it going to search?
And you can also extractthe questions that
(20:49):
it's asking itself inthis reasoning process.
So that's super helpfulfor kind of stepping into
that conversation thatpeople might have with AI.
Yeah.
The other one is.
That you basically haveto also write for another
audience rather than your SAP,which is the agent audience.
Yeah.
Which is a lot of people,especially for testing product,
(21:10):
might start using agents as wellthat go through your website.
You go through your app andtest it, and so in a way you
have to make sure that yourmessaging and your design,
your experience also workfor these kinds of agents.
So definitely aninteresting times to be
alive and play things.
Hannah Clark (21:28):
Yeah, I use that exact phrase all the time.
So it's an amazing timeto be alive, isn't it?
Okay.
So let's talk a little bit moreabout agent experience, because
this is, like, this is a wholenew discipline area of expertise
that, I mean, like, no one canreally claim themselves to be
a thorough expert because thisit's not really a firm science
that's, and it's changingso constantly, but as far
(21:48):
as you know, best practices.
At this moment in time, inthis week of September of 2025.
What have you seen as far as,you know, shifts that kind
of seem to make a positiveimpact around agent experience?
Chris Silvestri (22:02):
Yeah, so the first one, it's try to
make your, at least for themessaging side or usability,
to make everything as clearas possible and readable by
machines in a way as well.
So all the meta content,make sure that it's
in order, but also.
Balancing those features andbenefits properly in a way that
(22:23):
you provide the facts and thatthe fluff is completely removed.
And so in a way that'salways been good
copywriting practice, right?
So at least now that now it'sforcing us to do it better.
Just because these machines arefaster than us going through
websites, they don't need tospend a lot of time to kind
of extract the data they need.
(22:44):
And the other one is, I'mstarting to think of messaging
more as kind of infrastructureas something that you kind
of install in a company andneeds to basically flow.
Through different channels,through different assets.
And so it's important tobe even more consistent
with your message acrossall your channels.
(23:05):
Product marketing, side,shades, collateral, anything.
Just because once these agentsstart circulating and navigating
around, as soon as they startseeing some disconnect in your
messaging, then they're probablygonna go to a competitor
who's doing it better andusing that as the main source.
Consistency.
Super important, I think.
(23:26):
And also the other one, whichhas always been something that
I talked about, it's the UX ofcopy or the hi the messaging
hierarchy on your website.
So making sure that you havethe right pages for the right
ICPs on your website that.
The navigation flowswell, and that's all.
Again, going back to thatstructural research, the looking
(23:47):
at user recordings, eat maps,understanding how people use
your website or navigate throughwebsite or use your product.
That's all super valuableto kind of understand as
well how these agents work.
And the other one isprobably something even
more fundamental, I think,which is your positioning.
So the stronger your positioningis and your specific point
(24:07):
of view, the better I think.
The higher chances you haveto stand out and to make sure
that these agents actually getthe gist of what you do in the
right way for the right people.
And so having a strong pointof view what's that insight
that only you have on themarket, on your customers, on
the competition that actuallymade you build your product?
(24:30):
Right?
So yeah, I would saythese are the main things
that I'm thinking about.
Hannah Clark (24:34):
I'm very curious about this because
I foresee at this pointall these predictions.
Who can say, but I kind of seethis trend of, especially in
B2B agents being the primarydecision maker, or at least the
primary kind of filter for, youknow, what are the decisions
that a business needs to makein terms of tooling, in terms of
solutions, in terms of services.
Because they can just evaluatethe information with a lot more
(24:57):
objectivity and a lot faster.
But I still think thatthere is a place for.
Making a, let's say, a moreemotional connection with
a buyer, with a consumer,and especially with B2C.
You know, like when you'retalking to a B2B client,
you're trying to get them thesolution that they want at
the price that they want, withthe features that they need.
And a lot of that is negotiable.
When you're talking about B2C,you're talking about a product
(25:19):
that you want people to kind ofintegrate into their life, and
there has to be a certain way tobuild affinity with the buyer.
So how do you kind of balance.
Kinda what you're describingthis agent experience, which
is really focused on deliveringthings in a way that's easily
processed by machines andeasily understood versus kind
of like this liminal space wherethere's like that fluff that you
(25:40):
described is also kind of theplace where we sort of establish
a personality in a POV.
How do you kind of balancethose things out and kind
of determine what's likethe percentage of experience
versus human connectionthat you wanna integrate.
Chris Silvestri (25:53):
To me, I think it's always been
about understanding whereyou fit in like how new or
establish your solution isyour category and your market.
Once you understand, okay,my solution is a new solution
in established market, or I'man established solution in an
established market, establishedsolution, new market,
(26:13):
whatever the combination is.
Then you can basically andit's the exact thing that I
do in my messaging framework.
I have a literally a tablethat based on where you fit,
whether you are establishedsolution in a new market.
Or vice versa.
It gives you the percentagesof benefits versus the features
versus the differentiatorsthat you should use in
(26:34):
your copy, and that'sbasically how I balance it.
I have literally threesections and in one sections,
for example, if you arekind of a new solution or
established market, then youhave to explain the benefits.
What's the benefit?
'cause the feature maybe alreadyestablished differentiator of
maybe you don't have allowed.
If you are established solutionand established market, then
(26:55):
you have to be heavier on thedifferentiators, secondary
benefits, and then features.
So I think it's findingout where you're at in
terms of solution, categoryand market maturity.
Then figuring out how to splitthose three main copy elements.
Hannah Clark (27:12):
I love a scientific approach
to copywriting.
This is.
Chris Silvestri (27:15):
I'm a former engineer.
I had to turn it into system.
Hannah Clark (27:19):
You are probably one of the few
people in your craft who islike really coming at this
as such a data-driven way.
Like a lot of copywritersI know are just like,
what speaks to my heart?
Chris Silvestri (27:27):
Yes.
Creative.
Hannah Clark (27:28):
Such a cool POV.
So anyway, since I alreadybroke the seal as far as
looking at predictionsand that kind of thing.
Without putting too muchstock in it because we,
who knows what's gonnahappen in two months.
What would you say is like apiece of advice that you'd give
to folks about staying aheadof psychological and behavioral
changes as far as what you'rekind of seeing trends wise and
predictably when it comes toshifts in AI and agent use?
Chris Silvestri (27:51):
I would say rather than chasing trends,
I would say go back to yourmarket territory your ICP,
like it's the most fundamentaltip, but especially now with
AI and the speed at which wecan collect information and
also analyze information.
It's what I was saying before.
If you install a kind of aresearch system and I call
(28:12):
it research optimizationsystem, those three layers
that I talked about.
If you make it a consistentpractice inside the
organization, run itconsistently and co consistently
collect fresh data, like beingin touch with your audience
is actually what dictateseverything else, I think.
And so, okay.
It's important to, to lookat the trends, but again, I
would still anchor everythinginto the knowledge of the ICP.
Hannah Clark (28:36):
Yeah, I guess so.
And I really like thistakeaway of we are writing
for a different ICP now, likewe have to start thinking
about agents as an audienceand not just as a tool.
Which is like a huge paradigmshift in terms of how we
think about reaching people,but I feel like that's
such a huge golden nuggetfor this conversation.
And speaking of thisconversation, thank you so much
for sharing these insights.
(28:56):
This is like such a coolthing to dissect in this way.
We've talked a little bitabout a lot of marketing
strategy related topicsbefore, but this is, I feel
like the first time we'vereally looked at things from a
really data first perspective.
So, where can peoplehear more about this?
Where can people findyou online, Chris?
Chris Silvestri (29:12):
Yeah.
Thank you so much, Hannah.
It's been super awesome andI feel like I hated a bit on
too much on product people,but hopefully not because I
love product people and I alsolike from my UX experience and
watching hundreds of usabilitytests, I feel their pain.
So I always try to help them.
But yeah, people can findme at conversionalchemy.net
to my website whereI have a newsletter.
(29:32):
Or mostly on LinkedIn.
I'm there chatting, postingabout everything that
I learned, and so yeah,feel free to connect.
Hannah Clark (29:39):
Sounds great.
Well, thank you so muchfor making the time.
Chris Silvestri (29:41):
Thank you.
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