March 29, 2022 • 22 mins
The Program Pod honors Women's History Month in the latest episode featuring an all-women panel including Criminal Justice Professor Dr. Amber Ciccanti, 3+1 Law and Justice alum Helen Hull and Manager of the NJ State Parole Board’s Community Programs Division Sherry Sandler for an in-depth discussion about what it means to pursue a career in criminal justice.
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Unknown (00:00):
Welcome to the program pod a production from the rcbc
podcast network that offers afirsthand perspective from an
rcbc student, faculty member andemployer. Hello and welcome to
the program pod A production ofthe rcbc Podcast Network where
we take an rcbc program and do adeep dive from three different
perspectives faculty, studentand employer. Thanks for joining
the conversation with me, yourhost Jay Varga and for today's
(00:21):
episode, we're talking allthings law and public service
plus, honoring and showing ourappreciation for Women's History
Month with an all female guestpanel. With me today we have
Helen Hall, a three plus onercbc Law and Justice alum now
working as a senior clerk typistfor the New Jersey State Parole
Board, Dr. amorosa Conti, a lawjustice professor here at rcbc
with an extensive background asa police officer, detective and
(00:43):
Sergeant for the willingboropolice department as well as
experience in both privatesecurity and private
investigations. And also SherrySandler manager of the New
Jersey state parole board'scommunity division and
coordinator of the Board Officeof gender services as rcbc
embraces a student philosopherstudent first philosophy we'll
get this right. Eventually, wehave another exceptional
students sharing their storyabout how rcbc helped provide
(01:06):
the stepping stones into landingher new career in law and
justice. Helen, welcome to theshow. Thank you. You're quite
welcome. Can you tell us alittle bit about yourself and
your experience of studying lawjustice here at rcbc.
Like you said, I work at thestate parole board now for New
Jersey, I'm in the SpecialOperations Group. So we deal
with Fugitive Apprehension inNew Jersey, as well as
(01:27):
throughout the country foranyone who has a parole warrant
from New Jersey. So I definitelyget a wide range of stories and
not so great story some days.But like I've had Dr. C is
professor and a lot of thethings she taught in our
policing class with usingdatabases and stuff like that
definitely helped in my day today, since I have to pull some
(01:49):
information for my officers, aswell as Professor Rizzo he
helped with taking us to prisonsand showing us community
corrections, which led me topicking parole as somewhat of a
career path for now. So I'mdefinitely thankful to both of
them for showing us everythingthat we need and the tools for
success and law justice.
(02:11):
So is that something when youfirst came to rcbc? That's what
you wanted to do? Or wasn'tuntil you, you just got these
crying?
Tears, like a kid, you know, tome, like,
you know, my kid? Yeah, when I,when I first applied here, it
was definitely law and justice.I didn't know exactly where I
wanted to go with it. I alwaysthought forensics and Dr. C was
(02:33):
like, you know, it's not goingto be that riveting. So I
learned a lot from her classes,as well as the other ones and
realize that, you know, everyonehas a different path. So you
don't have to be a policeofficer and ended up in Perl.
Dr. Scott, do you want to get acomment on the no forensics?
No. So we just so my class, wealways play the what's real and
(02:57):
what's not as glamorous. Ialways use the CSI shows where
they're like hairs blowing inthe wind, and they have the lab
coat on while they'reprocessing. And I'm like, yeah,
they don't look like that. Andthat's not what your crime scene
looks like. So I give them thereal deal. And some people
that's that's for them, and somepeople will it isn't, but this
is the place to find
out. Yeah, that's why I think mywife wanted to get into that.
(03:17):
But she was always watching CSIall the time. She wanted to do
that. And I was like, it's notexactly. You know, it's
television for a reason.Exactly. Well, Dr. Scotty is
always I defer to the professorswhen I have on the show to you
know, pick out their studentbecause he already had that kind
of connection. What was it aboutHelen that you wanted to bring
ever come on the show here?
(03:38):
So I had Helen in numerousclasses. She was also one of my
club members, my criminaljustice club members, I think
you're the president. Is thatcorrect? Or vice versa. She was
one of the officers in my club.So she, you know, had a lot of
experience with her. She wasalways very interactive in class
and participated. She alwaysgets it like, you know, on like,
(04:02):
the first round, you know, Imean, she always really
understood things. As I wasgiving them to her the
information, she she was able todo some critical thinking those
kinds of things. So I felt likeHelen would be a very good
choice for this podcast. I thinkshe represents the student body.
Well.
Yeah, I think so. Obviously,you're out there, you know,
(04:23):
working in the field itself. Socan you actually talk to Scotty
Can you tell a little bit aboutyour background before he even
became here? rcbc
Yeah, so I worked a few places,obviously before here. I was a
dispatcher for the University ofTennessee Police Department. I
worked private security inwhat's called around house.
There I worked forinvestigations. For the Six
(04:47):
Flags company, a great adventuredid undercover investigations
for them. I've worked for beenlicensed and bonded as a private
security agent in another state,worked at mostly government
buildings like PowerBoard thosekinds of things before getting
hired as a police officer. Andthen I worked for the
willingboro police departmentuntil I retired. And I held the
positions of patrol officer,detective and also sergeant.
(05:11):
Yeah, I don't think I could havebeen all that on my piece of
paper. So how did you transferall this stuff over into the
curriculum now here at rcbc?
So rcbc is criminal justiceprogram was a CTE, which means
we're a career technicaleducation. So we teach the job,
what is the job? What ispolicing? What is corrections?
(05:33):
What are the things you're goingto come across? A hell I
mentioned, some databases, wetalked about data mining, and
those kinds of things, what thejob is going to entail. And I
like to use my real worldexperience, as I say, everyone
in the criminal justicedepartment here has worked in
the business in some aspects,either in corrections or
policing or for the courts.
(05:54):
So not to cut you off recordwith the difference between
policing and corrections forsomeone like myself just
listening.
So the police officers are theones who are out on the street
and serving the public and attimes arresting people. And then
corrections are the officers whowork inside the jails and
prisons who carry out whateversentence was handed down by the
(06:15):
court.
And in the data mining, how doesthat get into play?
Like Ellen was saying that shehas her officers who are chasing
fugitives, you know, through NewJersey, and possibly in other
states, I'm learning as much asyou can about them and their
connections and who they'reconnected to, and, and anything
that could lead to theirpossible whereabouts. And just
(06:35):
knowing who you're dealing withthose kinds of things is some of
the information they can getthrough the different computer
programs through data mining
is locked in, yeah,
different, you know, anybody youcan think of has information out
there. And if they're on therun, you're going to be able to
find something on them throughthose databases, or somebody who
(06:57):
knows them.
So you're saying I can't getaway with what I think I might
want to try in the future,probably not. Felons, like
noted, will talk to Scotty likemyself, I used to teach right
before COVID. And I tried tobring my students out there into
the field, you know, took themto the radio stations, got
taught radio production, hence,you know, doing some of the
podcasting, and it seems likethere is always lit up because I
(07:18):
got out of the classroom, do youthink that's really beneficial
for the same thing for yourstudents out there, they get to
see instead of just kind ofbeing like booksmart resorts
I do, I think the students wouldwould rather not be in the
classroom every single day, ifthey could, and they would be
somewhere else, you know, onsome sort of tour getting
exposed to some of these otherthings. But we definitely try to
integrate both, you know,classroom learning the books
(07:40):
more as, as you call it, andthen adding in our own personal
experiences, like, look, this ishow it kind of really is, you
know, or this is how it applies,especially in this area of the
country and the northeast partof the country is a lot
different than other parts ofthe country, and how law
enforcement is done here. Andthen integrating that with
different things like going tothe visiting a prison, like
(08:01):
Helen had already mentioned. Myclub has been to devic, which is
a Intelligence Center regionalIntelligence Center in
Pennsylvania. They do otherthings, we have people come and
visit the classroom, again, justto get them exposed to what it's
really like what you said, yeah,yeah, look at TV. And you think
(08:21):
things are one way. And then weexpose them to real agencies and
real people working in theagencies. And they see that it's
often completely different. Andit's not their fault that they
don't know how it really is, youknow, they, they haven't ever
worked that job before, we know.So we expose them to as many
things as we can, so they canmake the right decision about
what they want to do with therest of their lives. Especially
(08:44):
when you're dealing with peopleand the rights of people and
people having a bad day andpeople who are not good people.
And speaking of the field and Iwill get to share in a second.
We're not even yet here. Don'tworry. We got we got two coming
up. But so what type of skillsdo you need, and I can parlay
partly this question intosharing in a second. To have
success in the field, he's comefrom the instructor and your
(09:04):
past experience, too.
I think they need to be outgoingpeople, I think they need to
have a little bit of an ego thatdoes protect you in a variety of
ways. They need to beresponsible people trustworthy,
you know, up there with youknow, these are kind of like all
equally as important. They needto work with little to no
supervision and be able to dothat, you know, have their own
(09:27):
kind of self motivation,obviously, good moral character,
and they have to have empathyfor others, because again, we're
not seeing people on their bestday. We're often seeing them on
one of the worst days,
right. And again, here speakingof the field itself, let's
finally bring in the employerangle of the program pod here
with Sherry Sandler. Again,thanks for being on the show.
Sherry. Thanks for having me.You're quite welcome. So, can
(09:49):
you tell us a little bit aboutyour background and what you're
currently doing?
Okay, so I'm the manager of theCommunity Programs Division for
the New Jersey state paroleboard. So our division oversees
and network of treatment pros.grants and resources that assist
individuals coming out of prisongoing to parole supervision. So
I've been there for over 23years. And I have to say, I
(10:09):
absolutely love my job. It's agreat agency to work for.
Always good when you love yourjob. Absolutely. So a little
birdie told me actually, beforeyou got into involved with all
that you actually are here atour CBC.
I was I was. So I met Helen atthe rcbc law enforcement career
fair. And I have to say, I wasimmediately impressed with her
(10:30):
attitude and her work ethic.When I saw that she had applied
for the state parole boardinternship program, I inserted
myself because I wanted to workwith her. She was scheduled to
go to a different division, butI managed to pull her to my
division. By the end of theinternship, it was a great
experience.
So you got to link up withHelen, obviously get involved in
our programs here at thecollege. And we talked to her
(10:52):
and a little, you know, podcastspreview, you know, you talked
about how, you know, you reallythought the program put out a
lot of great students, what wasit about our programs, our CBC
program that stands out?
Well, I think our CBC studentshave a realistic understanding
of how the agencies worktogether. Speaking from the
employer perspective, getting anrcbc student in an internship or
(11:16):
in a in a entry level position,they're ready to hit the ground
running, they already have areduced learning curve so that
they can dive right into thefield work. It's really been a
pleasure working with rcbcstudents.
So do you have any advice forstudents that are looking to get
into, you know, into the career
field? Sure, absolutely. Sofirst, always be honest on your
(11:40):
applications. That's a part ofthe process that's taken very
seriously. I also think theyshould keep an open mind when
considering the various careerpaths. New Jersey's law
enforcement agencies offer manynon traditional employment
opportunities. But it's verynoble and rewarding work,
won't you say Be honest, wherepeople tend to tend to lie?
(12:03):
If there's been previous lawenforcement contact, if you're
applying to a law enforcementagency, they're going to do due
diligence with the backgroundcheck. So always be open and
honest, and might not besomething that would preclude
you from having the position.But if you're not honest, that
will absolutely knock you out ofthe box,
right? All that data mining,right? That's for sure. Did you
(12:26):
want to add anything I knowyou're gonna touch on it in a
second to
me, I completely agree with witheverything Sherry said, and I
do. Also we try to, we try to bevery upfront with our students
and say, you know, you need toalways be your best self at all
times, when you're especiallypresenting to people. And I
think Sherry gave a very goodexample of, you know, if Helen
(12:47):
didn't take the career fair,seriously, and didn't put her
best self forward, she might nothave given a good impression,
you never know who you'reinteracting with, or who knows
who we say that all the time,you never know, who knows who so
we got to watch what she said,Right? Or watch as you do,
because somebody is alwayswatching and listening. So I,
you know, we always try toimpress that on our students, we
always try to impress them tofollow directions, follow
(13:09):
directions, follow directions,that's one of the things that
will get you in this business,when they're trying to evaluate,
you know, are you gonna be ableto follow directions and make
good decisions out on the fieldwith Can you follow directions,
even leading up to it, you know,into being hired and those kinds
of things. So, we always try toprepare them to understand that
they are their bestrepresentatives for themselves.
(13:31):
And that can be the worst, ifthey're not, you know, they say
putting their best foot
forward, it's kind of funny toin every career aspect of, it
seems like it's such a huge, youknow, network and world, but
it's really small. And it seemslike everybody knows about it.
Like, you know, when I worked inradio broadcasting, I might be
working in Philadelphia market,but I know people in a lot of
other markets and stuff too. Andthat's why I was telling my
(13:51):
students, you know, don't evenknow if you had a bad
experience, even when there wasan internship or something like
that, you know, don't go badmouthing somebody, because you
never know where it's gonna comeback to you. There's people
getting moved around and bumpedaround and such. But something
also came up that I'm not reallysure. I guess the thing to look
out for when you you're lookingout for the the skill set itself
was also to be watching you puton your social media channels.
(14:12):
Yeah, we talk about social mediaa lot. We even have officers,
you know, currently working haveissues with what they put on
social media. But we definitelytell our students, you know,
that social media is, you know,there's nothing really private
when you work in public, oryou're trying to work in public,
there's no such thing asprivate. Everything that you do
is is part of the public eye.And, you know, we're not telling
(14:35):
our students to hide things orpretend you're someone else and
we're not giving them thatinformation. But we are telling
them to be very mindful of notonly what you put on social
media, what other people areputting on social media, a lot
of people have friends on theiraccounts that they don't even
know or they don't know thatwell. They're not really sure
how they became friends. Youknow, they're like, Well,
Facebook friends, but I reallyhave no idea who these people
are, you know, and you mean andthey often will post things that
(14:58):
are inappropriate and that willsink to you know, is even being
associated with people that postthings that are inappropriate,
discriminatory, you know, insertwhatever, you know, adjective
adjective in there, that's,that's going to give you
appearance in a bad light.
Yeah. So I had to put myself onprivate because a lot of my
friends want to tag me a bunchof stuff on my work for college
(15:19):
and stuff. And I'm not evenassociated with some of these,
these parties. So is thatsomething that you look into?
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. In thebackground checks that way to
every applicant? Absolutely.Yeah. Well, obviously, on past
her background check on socialmedia. So Helen, for a recent
rcbc Grad, what would you tellprospective students looking to
get into this study in thiscareer field,
go for it. I mean, if you'rescared that you can't pass, you
(15:42):
know, a physical test for, youknow, being a police officer, a
corrections officer, thatshouldn't stop you from trying
to be in the criminal justicefield. I mean, I wasn't too
confident that I could passphysical, but I still, you know,
persevered. And I was like, Youknow what, that's not going to
be an option for me, but I canlook somewhere else. I think
people need to be, you know,open minded, like we've said
before, about the options thatare out there. And if you really
(16:04):
are invested in, you know, likeDr. C said, wanting to, you
know, help people have thatempathy for people on their
worst days, there's a spot foryou, if you're really that
invested into it.
Right. And we were talking,again, some of the off subject
or off the mic stuff before, butyou don't always have to carry a
gun either, right? There's somany people that think like
(16:24):
Dominican law, they have tocarry a gun. And
now there's plenty of lawenforcement positions, you don't
have to carry it on, there'sdifferent aspects of civilian
positions. The criminal justicesystem when you're watching the
three C's, cops, courts andcorrections. You know, the
courts, of course, are nottypically people who carry guns,
but there's a lot even in thecop section, right? The police
inspection and also incorrections that are not, you
(16:48):
know, what, you have to be ableto arresting people and carrying
guns and those kinds of things.So if that's not your cup of
tea, as they say, there's otherpositions. Another thing that I
think people need to remember,and one of the things I like
about being here is that, youknow, students like Helen can
see that, you know, women canstill do this job, right?
(17:10):
There's, there's, you know,sometimes you, you don't know
where people's heads are hat.And you know, they they think
that all this is a man's world,and it still kind of is but you
know, women have been breakingthe glass ceilings for a long
time. And women can definitelydo all of the positions,
including the ones where thereare arresting people. But if
that's not what they want to do,then there's plenty of other
positions to do to, you know, togo into. And there's nothing
(17:34):
wrong with that.
And seeing that it is Women'sHistory Month two, are we seeing
that the roles are expanding tolike,
Oh, absolutely. There's way fromfrom the time I came into law
enforcement, I was like thethird fourth, maybe female hired
in bronze county police officer,and there's there's police
officers everywhere, femalepolice officers, you know, in a
lot of places, and that's justthe way it should be. Right?
(17:56):
Absolutely. That's awesome. Youknow, it's awesome to see that
change. You know, over the pasttwo and a half, three decades,
is there a way to get involvedoutside the classroom itself?
Like, do we have I know, you'retalking about your club, you
want to elaborate on that orsomewhere to volunteer or, you
know, they want to gainexperience, except somehow
outside the classroom?
Oh, yeah, I do run the criminaljustice club. And we've we do
some fun things like the escaperoom, those kinds of things. But
(18:18):
we've also worked at a soupkitchen, again, to expose the
students to all kinds ofdifferent people, and helps them
get rid of some maybe somepreconceived notions. So other
students who said I couldn'tbelieve there's whole families
in there, you know, and yes,this is this is real life, Let's
expose you to real life, you canget involved in that there's a
lot of groups out there, youknow, that work with the
(18:39):
community, community groups, andthose kinds of things that they
can get involved in just to getmore exposure into, you know,
especially working with peoplein general, you know, learning
how to talk to people, learningthe different things that people
go through, you know, we oftenkind of live in our own little
bubble, you have to get intoother people's bubbles, to see
what other people you know, dealwith every day or how their
(19:02):
lives are and the way they wereraised or things that they deal
with. So that, you know, you canhit the ground running, as
Sherry mentioned earlier, with,you know, a career in this in
this business.
sounds almost like no littlepsychology involved to
the Human Services psychology.Yeah. I think
yeah, absolutely. I recommendjoining a professional
(19:22):
association, such as the MiddleAtlantic States Correctional
Association. So theseorganizations offer networking
and training opportunities toprofessionals across the related
disciplines. It's a great way tomeet others working in the field
and stay up to date on currentissues and trends in the
industry.
And how can I get involved thatway? There are certain websites
(19:43):
go online. Yeah, absolutely.Yeah. There are professional
associations for many, manydifferent career paths and
fields and disciplines. It'sit's just a great way to meet
others to network to shareinformation. A lot of folks go
to college sectional conferencesand they find new career
opportunities that they didn'tknow existed. So definitely a
(20:06):
way to get out of the office,you know, away from the job and
talk with a greater audience.Nice.
I mean, I was part of thecriminal justice club with Dr.
C. So already had those lovelyconnections as well. As you
know, if you want an internship,you don't have to do it for
school, you can do it, you know,just for life experience, if
(20:27):
there's something you'reinterested in, whether it's
brawl, whether it's anything, goout and get an internship, even
if it's a couple hours a week,you can still network, meet new
people, and learn new things. Ithink that's very important for
people to understand that youdon't have to do it for credit.
You don't have to do it for yourmoney, you can just do it for
life experience.
life experience is such aunderrated value and trade
(20:49):
itself what I mean, that'sgreat. You know, I'm thankful
for all of you pretty muchcoming on the show here. But
before I get ready to wrapthings up, is there any like
Final thoughts, words of wisdomfrom maybe some prospective
students or people who forcareer change or anything at
all,
I would say just come check usout. We're here. We have a very
(21:10):
good program. And it's a goodplace to, you know, get exposure
to these kinds of things, youknow, from people who are
professional, and have donetheir job and can guide you the
right way.
Yes, because I know we're alsoprofessor Rizzo is involved with
that too. And I get to workupstairs with Dr. C. Han.
(21:31):
Professor reserved So alright,well, that again, it's gonna be
doing it for us here on thisepisode of the program pod and I
hope you enjoy today's shows. Iwant to thank our guest again
today as we honor also Women'sHistory Month but Helen hold the
recent three plus one rcbc Lawand Justice alum now working as
a senior clerk typist for theNew Jersey State Parole Board,
Dr. Amber McCarthy, also knownas Dr. C, apparently here as a
law justice professor here atrcbc. With the extensive
(21:54):
background as a police officer,again, Detective Sergeant, and
the whole rap sheet ofeverything going down. And of
course Sherry Sandler manager ofthe New Jersey state parole
board's community division andcoordinator of the board's
office of gender services. Onceagain, I am Jay Varga and if you
want to learn more about RCBSuse programs like the law
justice program, you can visitrcbc.edu or for other rcbc
(22:17):
podcasts we have to offer youcan visit rcbc.edu/podcast And
also be sure to subscribe to theprogram pod and any platform
where you get to your podcastsand feel a little kind today.
You can also leave that fivestar review smash that like
button as they say. And that'snext time. Thanks for listening.
Thanks, everybody.
Welcome to the program pod a production from the rcbc
podcast network that offers afirsthand perspective from an
rcbc student, faculty member andemployer. Hello and welcome to
the program pod A production ofthe rcbc Podcast Network where
we take an rcbc program and do adeep dive from three different
perspectives faculty, studentand employer. Thanks for joining
the conversation with me, yourhost Jay Varga and for today's
(00:21):
episode, we're talking allthings law and public service
plus, honoring and showing ourappreciation for Women's History
Month with an all female guestpanel. With me today we have
Helen Hall, a three plus onercbc Law and Justice alum now
working as a senior clerk typistfor the New Jersey State Parole
Board, Dr. amorosa Conti, a lawjustice professor here at rcbc
with an extensive background asa police officer, detective and
(00:43):
Sergeant for the willingboropolice department as well as
experience in both privatesecurity and private
investigations. And also SherrySandler manager of the New
Jersey state parole board'scommunity division and
coordinator of the Board Officeof gender services as rcbc
embraces a student philosopherstudent first philosophy we'll
get this right. Eventually, wehave another exceptional
students sharing their storyabout how rcbc helped provide
(01:06):
the stepping stones into landingher new career in law and
justice. Helen, welcome to theshow. Thank you. You're quite
welcome. Can you tell us alittle bit about yourself and
your experience of studying lawjustice here at rcbc.
Like you said, I work at thestate parole board now for New
Jersey, I'm in the SpecialOperations Group. So we deal
with Fugitive Apprehension inNew Jersey, as well as
(01:27):
throughout the country foranyone who has a parole warrant
from New Jersey. So I definitelyget a wide range of stories and
not so great story some days.But like I've had Dr. C is
professor and a lot of thethings she taught in our
policing class with usingdatabases and stuff like that
definitely helped in my day today, since I have to pull some
(01:49):
information for my officers, aswell as Professor Rizzo he
helped with taking us to prisonsand showing us community
corrections, which led me topicking parole as somewhat of a
career path for now. So I'mdefinitely thankful to both of
them for showing us everythingthat we need and the tools for
success and law justice.
(02:11):
So is that something when youfirst came to rcbc? That's what
you wanted to do? Or wasn'tuntil you, you just got these
crying?
Tears, like a kid, you know, tome, like,
you know, my kid? Yeah, when I,when I first applied here, it
was definitely law and justice.I didn't know exactly where I
wanted to go with it. I alwaysthought forensics and Dr. C was
(02:33):
like, you know, it's not goingto be that riveting. So I
learned a lot from her classes,as well as the other ones and
realize that, you know, everyonehas a different path. So you
don't have to be a policeofficer and ended up in Perl.
Dr. Scott, do you want to get acomment on the no forensics?
No. So we just so my class, wealways play the what's real and
(02:57):
what's not as glamorous. Ialways use the CSI shows where
they're like hairs blowing inthe wind, and they have the lab
coat on while they'reprocessing. And I'm like, yeah,
they don't look like that. Andthat's not what your crime scene
looks like. So I give them thereal deal. And some people
that's that's for them, and somepeople will it isn't, but this
is the place to find
out. Yeah, that's why I think mywife wanted to get into that.
(03:17):
But she was always watching CSIall the time. She wanted to do
that. And I was like, it's notexactly. You know, it's
television for a reason.Exactly. Well, Dr. Scotty is
always I defer to the professorswhen I have on the show to you
know, pick out their studentbecause he already had that kind
of connection. What was it aboutHelen that you wanted to bring
ever come on the show here?
(03:38):
So I had Helen in numerousclasses. She was also one of my
club members, my criminaljustice club members, I think
you're the president. Is thatcorrect? Or vice versa. She was
one of the officers in my club.So she, you know, had a lot of
experience with her. She wasalways very interactive in class
and participated. She alwaysgets it like, you know, on like,
(04:02):
the first round, you know, Imean, she always really
understood things. As I wasgiving them to her the
information, she she was able todo some critical thinking those
kinds of things. So I felt likeHelen would be a very good
choice for this podcast. I thinkshe represents the student body.
Well.
Yeah, I think so. Obviously,you're out there, you know,
(04:23):
working in the field itself. Socan you actually talk to Scotty
Can you tell a little bit aboutyour background before he even
became here? rcbc
Yeah, so I worked a few places,obviously before here. I was a
dispatcher for the University ofTennessee Police Department. I
worked private security inwhat's called around house.
There I worked forinvestigations. For the Six
(04:47):
Flags company, a great adventuredid undercover investigations
for them. I've worked for beenlicensed and bonded as a private
security agent in another state,worked at mostly government
buildings like PowerBoard thosekinds of things before getting
hired as a police officer. Andthen I worked for the
willingboro police departmentuntil I retired. And I held the
positions of patrol officer,detective and also sergeant.
(05:11):
Yeah, I don't think I could havebeen all that on my piece of
paper. So how did you transferall this stuff over into the
curriculum now here at rcbc?
So rcbc is criminal justiceprogram was a CTE, which means
we're a career technicaleducation. So we teach the job,
what is the job? What ispolicing? What is corrections?
(05:33):
What are the things you're goingto come across? A hell I
mentioned, some databases, wetalked about data mining, and
those kinds of things, what thejob is going to entail. And I
like to use my real worldexperience, as I say, everyone
in the criminal justicedepartment here has worked in
the business in some aspects,either in corrections or
policing or for the courts.
(05:54):
So not to cut you off recordwith the difference between
policing and corrections forsomeone like myself just
listening.
So the police officers are theones who are out on the street
and serving the public and attimes arresting people. And then
corrections are the officers whowork inside the jails and
prisons who carry out whateversentence was handed down by the
(06:15):
court.
And in the data mining, how doesthat get into play?
Like Ellen was saying that shehas her officers who are chasing
fugitives, you know, through NewJersey, and possibly in other
states, I'm learning as much asyou can about them and their
connections and who they'reconnected to, and, and anything
that could lead to theirpossible whereabouts. And just
(06:35):
knowing who you're dealing withthose kinds of things is some of
the information they can getthrough the different computer
programs through data mining
is locked in, yeah,
different, you know, anybody youcan think of has information out
there. And if they're on therun, you're going to be able to
find something on them throughthose databases, or somebody who
(06:57):
knows them.
So you're saying I can't getaway with what I think I might
want to try in the future,probably not. Felons, like
noted, will talk to Scotty likemyself, I used to teach right
before COVID. And I tried tobring my students out there into
the field, you know, took themto the radio stations, got
taught radio production, hence,you know, doing some of the
podcasting, and it seems likethere is always lit up because I
(07:18):
got out of the classroom, do youthink that's really beneficial
for the same thing for yourstudents out there, they get to
see instead of just kind ofbeing like booksmart resorts
I do, I think the students wouldwould rather not be in the
classroom every single day, ifthey could, and they would be
somewhere else, you know, onsome sort of tour getting
exposed to some of these otherthings. But we definitely try to
integrate both, you know,classroom learning the books
(07:40):
more as, as you call it, andthen adding in our own personal
experiences, like, look, this ishow it kind of really is, you
know, or this is how it applies,especially in this area of the
country and the northeast partof the country is a lot
different than other parts ofthe country, and how law
enforcement is done here. Andthen integrating that with
different things like going tothe visiting a prison, like
(08:01):
Helen had already mentioned. Myclub has been to devic, which is
a Intelligence Center regionalIntelligence Center in
Pennsylvania. They do otherthings, we have people come and
visit the classroom, again, justto get them exposed to what it's
really like what you said, yeah,yeah, look at TV. And you think
(08:21):
things are one way. And then weexpose them to real agencies and
real people working in theagencies. And they see that it's
often completely different. Andit's not their fault that they
don't know how it really is, youknow, they, they haven't ever
worked that job before, we know.So we expose them to as many
things as we can, so they canmake the right decision about
what they want to do with therest of their lives. Especially
(08:44):
when you're dealing with peopleand the rights of people and
people having a bad day andpeople who are not good people.
And speaking of the field and Iwill get to share in a second.
We're not even yet here. Don'tworry. We got we got two coming
up. But so what type of skillsdo you need, and I can parlay
partly this question intosharing in a second. To have
success in the field, he's comefrom the instructor and your
(09:04):
past experience, too.
I think they need to be outgoingpeople, I think they need to
have a little bit of an ego thatdoes protect you in a variety of
ways. They need to beresponsible people trustworthy,
you know, up there with youknow, these are kind of like all
equally as important. They needto work with little to no
supervision and be able to dothat, you know, have their own
(09:27):
kind of self motivation,obviously, good moral character,
and they have to have empathyfor others, because again, we're
not seeing people on their bestday. We're often seeing them on
one of the worst days,
right. And again, here speakingof the field itself, let's
finally bring in the employerangle of the program pod here
with Sherry Sandler. Again,thanks for being on the show.
Sherry. Thanks for having me.You're quite welcome. So, can
(09:49):
you tell us a little bit aboutyour background and what you're
currently doing?
Okay, so I'm the manager of theCommunity Programs Division for
the New Jersey state paroleboard. So our division oversees
and network of treatment pros.grants and resources that assist
individuals coming out of prisongoing to parole supervision. So
I've been there for over 23years. And I have to say, I
(10:09):
absolutely love my job. It's agreat agency to work for.
Always good when you love yourjob. Absolutely. So a little
birdie told me actually, beforeyou got into involved with all
that you actually are here atour CBC.
I was I was. So I met Helen atthe rcbc law enforcement career
fair. And I have to say, I wasimmediately impressed with her
(10:30):
attitude and her work ethic.When I saw that she had applied
for the state parole boardinternship program, I inserted
myself because I wanted to workwith her. She was scheduled to
go to a different division, butI managed to pull her to my
division. By the end of theinternship, it was a great
experience.
So you got to link up withHelen, obviously get involved in
our programs here at thecollege. And we talked to her
(10:52):
and a little, you know, podcastspreview, you know, you talked
about how, you know, you reallythought the program put out a
lot of great students, what wasit about our programs, our CBC
program that stands out?
Well, I think our CBC studentshave a realistic understanding
of how the agencies worktogether. Speaking from the
employer perspective, getting anrcbc student in an internship or
(11:16):
in a in a entry level position,they're ready to hit the ground
running, they already have areduced learning curve so that
they can dive right into thefield work. It's really been a
pleasure working with rcbcstudents.
So do you have any advice forstudents that are looking to get
into, you know, into the career
field? Sure, absolutely. Sofirst, always be honest on your
(11:40):
applications. That's a part ofthe process that's taken very
seriously. I also think theyshould keep an open mind when
considering the various careerpaths. New Jersey's law
enforcement agencies offer manynon traditional employment
opportunities. But it's verynoble and rewarding work,
won't you say Be honest, wherepeople tend to tend to lie?
(12:03):
If there's been previous lawenforcement contact, if you're
applying to a law enforcementagency, they're going to do due
diligence with the backgroundcheck. So always be open and
honest, and might not besomething that would preclude
you from having the position.But if you're not honest, that
will absolutely knock you out ofthe box,
right? All that data mining,right? That's for sure. Did you
(12:26):
want to add anything I knowyou're gonna touch on it in a
second to
me, I completely agree with witheverything Sherry said, and I
do. Also we try to, we try to bevery upfront with our students
and say, you know, you need toalways be your best self at all
times, when you're especiallypresenting to people. And I
think Sherry gave a very goodexample of, you know, if Helen
(12:47):
didn't take the career fair,seriously, and didn't put her
best self forward, she might nothave given a good impression,
you never know who you'reinteracting with, or who knows
who we say that all the time,you never know, who knows who so
we got to watch what she said,Right? Or watch as you do,
because somebody is alwayswatching and listening. So I,
you know, we always try toimpress that on our students, we
always try to impress them tofollow directions, follow
(13:09):
directions, follow directions,that's one of the things that
will get you in this business,when they're trying to evaluate,
you know, are you gonna be ableto follow directions and make
good decisions out on the fieldwith Can you follow directions,
even leading up to it, you know,into being hired and those kinds
of things. So, we always try toprepare them to understand that
they are their bestrepresentatives for themselves.
(13:31):
And that can be the worst, ifthey're not, you know, they say
putting their best foot
forward, it's kind of funny toin every career aspect of, it
seems like it's such a huge, youknow, network and world, but
it's really small. And it seemslike everybody knows about it.
Like, you know, when I worked inradio broadcasting, I might be
working in Philadelphia market,but I know people in a lot of
other markets and stuff too. Andthat's why I was telling my
(13:51):
students, you know, don't evenknow if you had a bad
experience, even when there wasan internship or something like
that, you know, don't go badmouthing somebody, because you
never know where it's gonna comeback to you. There's people
getting moved around and bumpedaround and such. But something
also came up that I'm not reallysure. I guess the thing to look
out for when you you're lookingout for the the skill set itself
was also to be watching you puton your social media channels.
(14:12):
Yeah, we talk about social mediaa lot. We even have officers,
you know, currently working haveissues with what they put on
social media. But we definitelytell our students, you know,
that social media is, you know,there's nothing really private
when you work in public, oryou're trying to work in public,
there's no such thing asprivate. Everything that you do
is is part of the public eye.And, you know, we're not telling
(14:35):
our students to hide things orpretend you're someone else and
we're not giving them thatinformation. But we are telling
them to be very mindful of notonly what you put on social
media, what other people areputting on social media, a lot
of people have friends on theiraccounts that they don't even
know or they don't know thatwell. They're not really sure
how they became friends. Youknow, they're like, Well,
Facebook friends, but I reallyhave no idea who these people
are, you know, and you mean andthey often will post things that
(14:58):
are inappropriate and that willsink to you know, is even being
associated with people that postthings that are inappropriate,
discriminatory, you know, insertwhatever, you know, adjective
adjective in there, that's,that's going to give you
appearance in a bad light.
Yeah. So I had to put myself onprivate because a lot of my
friends want to tag me a bunchof stuff on my work for college
(15:19):
and stuff. And I'm not evenassociated with some of these,
these parties. So is thatsomething that you look into?
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. In thebackground checks that way to
every applicant? Absolutely.Yeah. Well, obviously, on past
her background check on socialmedia. So Helen, for a recent
rcbc Grad, what would you tellprospective students looking to
get into this study in thiscareer field,
go for it. I mean, if you'rescared that you can't pass, you
(15:42):
know, a physical test for, youknow, being a police officer, a
corrections officer, thatshouldn't stop you from trying
to be in the criminal justicefield. I mean, I wasn't too
confident that I could passphysical, but I still, you know,
persevered. And I was like, Youknow what, that's not going to
be an option for me, but I canlook somewhere else. I think
people need to be, you know,open minded, like we've said
before, about the options thatare out there. And if you really
(16:04):
are invested in, you know, likeDr. C said, wanting to, you
know, help people have thatempathy for people on their
worst days, there's a spot foryou, if you're really that
invested into it.
Right. And we were talking,again, some of the off subject
or off the mic stuff before, butyou don't always have to carry a
gun either, right? There's somany people that think like
(16:24):
Dominican law, they have tocarry a gun. And
now there's plenty of lawenforcement positions, you don't
have to carry it on, there'sdifferent aspects of civilian
positions. The criminal justicesystem when you're watching the
three C's, cops, courts andcorrections. You know, the
courts, of course, are nottypically people who carry guns,
but there's a lot even in thecop section, right? The police
inspection and also incorrections that are not, you
(16:48):
know, what, you have to be ableto arresting people and carrying
guns and those kinds of things.So if that's not your cup of
tea, as they say, there's otherpositions. Another thing that I
think people need to remember,and one of the things I like
about being here is that, youknow, students like Helen can
see that, you know, women canstill do this job, right?
(17:10):
There's, there's, you know,sometimes you, you don't know
where people's heads are hat.And you know, they they think
that all this is a man's world,and it still kind of is but you
know, women have been breakingthe glass ceilings for a long
time. And women can definitelydo all of the positions,
including the ones where thereare arresting people. But if
that's not what they want to do,then there's plenty of other
positions to do to, you know, togo into. And there's nothing
(17:34):
wrong with that.
And seeing that it is Women'sHistory Month two, are we seeing
that the roles are expanding tolike,
Oh, absolutely. There's way fromfrom the time I came into law
enforcement, I was like thethird fourth, maybe female hired
in bronze county police officer,and there's there's police
officers everywhere, femalepolice officers, you know, in a
lot of places, and that's justthe way it should be. Right?
(17:56):
Absolutely. That's awesome. Youknow, it's awesome to see that
change. You know, over the pasttwo and a half, three decades,
is there a way to get involvedoutside the classroom itself?
Like, do we have I know, you'retalking about your club, you
want to elaborate on that orsomewhere to volunteer or, you
know, they want to gainexperience, except somehow
outside the classroom?
Oh, yeah, I do run the criminaljustice club. And we've we do
some fun things like the escaperoom, those kinds of things. But
(18:18):
we've also worked at a soupkitchen, again, to expose the
students to all kinds ofdifferent people, and helps them
get rid of some maybe somepreconceived notions. So other
students who said I couldn'tbelieve there's whole families
in there, you know, and yes,this is this is real life, Let's
expose you to real life, you canget involved in that there's a
lot of groups out there, youknow, that work with the
(18:39):
community, community groups, andthose kinds of things that they
can get involved in just to getmore exposure into, you know,
especially working with peoplein general, you know, learning
how to talk to people, learningthe different things that people
go through, you know, we oftenkind of live in our own little
bubble, you have to get intoother people's bubbles, to see
what other people you know, dealwith every day or how their
(19:02):
lives are and the way they wereraised or things that they deal
with. So that, you know, you canhit the ground running, as
Sherry mentioned earlier, with,you know, a career in this in
this business.
sounds almost like no littlepsychology involved to
the Human Services psychology.Yeah. I think
yeah, absolutely. I recommendjoining a professional
(19:22):
association, such as the MiddleAtlantic States Correctional
Association. So theseorganizations offer networking
and training opportunities toprofessionals across the related
disciplines. It's a great way tomeet others working in the field
and stay up to date on currentissues and trends in the
industry.
And how can I get involved thatway? There are certain websites
(19:43):
go online. Yeah, absolutely.Yeah. There are professional
associations for many, manydifferent career paths and
fields and disciplines. It'sit's just a great way to meet
others to network to shareinformation. A lot of folks go
to college sectional conferencesand they find new career
opportunities that they didn'tknow existed. So definitely a
(20:06):
way to get out of the office,you know, away from the job and
talk with a greater audience.Nice.
I mean, I was part of thecriminal justice club with Dr.
C. So already had those lovelyconnections as well. As you
know, if you want an internship,you don't have to do it for
school, you can do it, you know,just for life experience, if
(20:27):
there's something you'reinterested in, whether it's
brawl, whether it's anything, goout and get an internship, even
if it's a couple hours a week,you can still network, meet new
people, and learn new things. Ithink that's very important for
people to understand that youdon't have to do it for credit.
You don't have to do it for yourmoney, you can just do it for
life experience.
life experience is such aunderrated value and trade
(20:49):
itself what I mean, that'sgreat. You know, I'm thankful
for all of you pretty muchcoming on the show here. But
before I get ready to wrapthings up, is there any like
Final thoughts, words of wisdomfrom maybe some prospective
students or people who forcareer change or anything at
all,
I would say just come check usout. We're here. We have a very
(21:10):
good program. And it's a goodplace to, you know, get exposure
to these kinds of things, youknow, from people who are
professional, and have donetheir job and can guide you the
right way.
Yes, because I know we're alsoprofessor Rizzo is involved with
that too. And I get to workupstairs with Dr. C. Han.
(21:31):
Professor reserved So alright,well, that again, it's gonna be
doing it for us here on thisepisode of the program pod and I
hope you enjoy today's shows. Iwant to thank our guest again
today as we honor also Women'sHistory Month but Helen hold the
recent three plus one rcbc Lawand Justice alum now working as
a senior clerk typist for theNew Jersey State Parole Board,
Dr. Amber McCarthy, also knownas Dr. C, apparently here as a
law justice professor here atrcbc. With the extensive
(21:54):
background as a police officer,again, Detective Sergeant, and
the whole rap sheet ofeverything going down. And of
course Sherry Sandler manager ofthe New Jersey state parole
board's community division andcoordinator of the board's
office of gender services. Onceagain, I am Jay Varga and if you
want to learn more about RCBSuse programs like the law
justice program, you can visitrcbc.edu or for other rcbc
(22:17):
podcasts we have to offer youcan visit rcbc.edu/podcast And
also be sure to subscribe to theprogram pod and any platform
where you get to your podcastsand feel a little kind today.
You can also leave that fivestar review smash that like
button as they say. And that'snext time. Thanks for listening.
Thanks, everybody.
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