May 14, 2025 • 12 mins
Ever walked into a property you own after years of tenancy and felt shocked by its condition? That jarring moment when expectation meets reality is at the heart of today's discussion with property management expert Cleo Whithear.
Navigating the delicate dance between landlord expectations and tenant realities requires finesse, fairness, and above all—reasonableness. As Cleo explains, property managers become mediators in these situations, helping landlords understand the difference between legitimate damage and normal wear and tear. After eight, ten, or even fifteen years of occupancy, properties naturally show signs of being lived in, and distinguishing between what's acceptable and what warrants compensation becomes crucial.
The conversation delves into specific examples that frequently become points of contention: stained carpets in properties occupied for a decade, broken blind cords after years of daily use, and minor wall damage during move-out. These situations highlight the importance of understanding depreciation and reasonable expectations. As Cleo aptly points out, tribunals won't award compensation for items that have reached the end of their useful life, regardless of their condition. Sometimes, the most powerful perspective comes from examining the financial relationship: "You've collected $427,752.52 in rent over ten years—within that, you've got to allow some expenditure."
For property owners and tenants alike, this episode offers valuable insights into managing expectations, understanding rights and responsibilities, and achieving fair outcomes during the tenancy conclusion process. The key takeaway? Properties are meant to be lived in, and with the right property manager facilitating reasonable discussions, end-of-lease transitions can proceed smoothly for everyone involved. Have you experienced challenging property handovers? We'd love to hear your stories and how you navigated these sometimes tricky waters.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
messy or trashed or what is that unit?
When your tenant moves out andyour landlord walks in?
Let's talk about thatdiscussion.
Stay tuned.
I'm the ringleader, so I'mgonna.
(00:29):
What is behind your shoulder?
Cleo Whittier.
Expert property manager.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
It's only been here the whole time I do Morning
Minutes.
That's the marble Venus de Milo, the famous sculpture that is
in the Louvre.
She should be in Greece, butanyway, let's not go there.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
In the Louvre.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah, she's been in the Louvre a long time.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
The replica, or that's the real one stolen.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
No, this is a replica .
Obviously.
The real one's like 6 foot 7foot tall.
But I remember we went thereand Brian was like let's go,
let's go visit, like Venus to mymum, like no, I'm not paying to
see something that should behere.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
But we did eventually go see her anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
This one is all marble and so is the the
platform she's sitting on, butthey're so hard to clean.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Marble's so porous that is so walkie of you, it's
so walkie, isn't it?
Yeah, what's?
And just just very quickly, whois venus demargo?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
well, she was part of the seven muses um, and it was
commissioned.
There was big you know thesesculptures back in the time and
I think it was I can't rememberwhich world war or wherever
where they took chunks of theparthenon away and a lot of all
the artifacts got stolen fromgrace and taken to all these
(02:00):
different countries england, youknow paris, and there's been a
huge movement over the years tobring back all the antiquities.
But the conjecture is that ifyou do that for Greece, then
they're going to have to do thatfor Egypt and then you know
they'll have nothing over there.
They'll have some oil paintings, wow.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Another thing we'll learn about you today there you
go, there you go.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
There you go, you're into your arts.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Now, cleo, tell me, this is a discussion you've just
recently had with a landlord.
This is a discussion youprobably have quite frequently,
daily with landlords, and it'swhen a tenant is in a property
and the landlord goes what, what, what?
Oh, that's not how I left theproperty, that's not what, how I
(02:55):
thought the property was in mybrain.
How does the conversation go?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Look, it comes to some real delicate negotiations.
A client always wants to knowthat you're in their corner and
that's predominantly that's whatwe do.
But we also have to bereasonable and in respect to the
tenant that's been there forover six to eight years, the
(03:24):
landlord does receive routinevideos.
However, they may not watchthem for one year, they may
forget about it, or whatever.
We go there twice a year, everyyear, and we see a property
change over time, especially ina big house.
You know, things come up,things arise.
A landlord might not remember,oh, oh, that retaining wall.
(03:47):
You know I reversed into that10 years ago and then all of a
sudden they see a chunk of brickgone and they're like, did the
tenant do that?
And we have to then refreshtheir memories.
So it is a comparable timelineof over, you know, eight to nine
years.
And then there's certain thingsthat we have to, as the
(04:11):
property manager say look,that's wear and tear, you need
to let that go, or that'ssomething that has depreciated,
you really should replace it nowanyway.
So it's a real long negotiation.
That's why the bond claim isoffered a two-week period to
(04:33):
settle or disputes, because inthat two weeks you can imagine
if you're negotiating a 10-yearum contract or you know tenancy.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
There's a lot of things you're going to go
through it must be a delicateconversation where the landlord
turns around and says who areyou working for?
You're working.
You should be working for me.
You should be in my side of thecorner.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
It's true, and we do go to that, you know, for both
sides, for the ownerpredominantly, but we also, you
know the tenant's also beenthere paying rent.
You know there's maintenancerequests that we have recorded
that the owner may haveoverlooked or things like that,
and it's our job to also mentionthat, you know, on behalf of
the tenant.
(05:15):
But yeah, look, we're notsaying that if a tenant's been
disrespectful and damaged theproperty, that we're not going
to, you know, make themaccountable by way of claiming
money from the bond.
We're not saying that at all.
That is what the ingrowingcondition report is for and
damage is very clearly damaged.
But where an owner feels damageand wear and tear are the same,
(05:39):
that's where we clash and needto, you know, have wind for both
sides if possible.
Um, because you know things aregoing to happen.
In a property you you do get,for example, carpets that are
stained.
It's an accident, it's not likethe tenant purposefully dropped
that cup of coffee, but theowner is not going to get
(06:03):
brand-new carpet out of thatstain.
They're going to get acompensation amount based on the
depreciation the carpet's overa certain amount of years.
It's a write-off.
The NCAT won't give you anymoney for it at all.
Anyway, they'll just say look,mr Owner, you've had that tenant
for 10, 12 years, now's thetime to replace the carpet.
Zero, they get no money for it.
(06:25):
So we need to refresh thelegislation terms to the client
when we're there.
But it doesn't mean that we'renot going to raise that, you
know, with the tenant.
How did this happen?
What's happened here, you know.
And then we'll come up with amonetary figure, not just off
the top of our head.
Through precedent cases,through NCAT calculations, we
(06:49):
work out a figure that is fairand just.
For example, when we're talkingabout stained carpets, there are
other things that come up, like, you know, if it's a wear and
tear item, like a blind that'sgoing up and down, up and down,
up and down for 10 years andthat blind cord is broken,
(07:10):
that's not the tenet of breakingit, that's the tenet of using
it and, as a result, over timeit's perished.
It needs to be replaced.
Sometimes the client will gowell, they've not been careful
with it.
I've lived in my house for 35years and I've had the same
blinds and none of them arebroken and we're like, I
understand.
But you know, there's certainthings, like if the balcony is,
(07:34):
you know, north-facing and itgets a lot of sun.
That plastic takes a lot fromthat and it will break in one to
two years if the tenant'sconstantly using it up and down
and it's there for you.
So these sorts of things arewhat we negotiate at the
outgoing with the landlord andthe tenant, and they always come
up the same things over andover.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So if it's not an experienced property manager
that handles their landlord andhandles their tenant and handles
the situation, they go to war.
This arbitration will happen ina tribunal situation.
(08:18):
It will cost the landlord timeand money and it will cost the
tenant time and money.
So I have to add, you've got tohave a gun, an absolute gun of
a property manager and inaddition to that you've got to
have awesome documentationdocumenting the evidence through
that period of the tenancy.
(08:38):
But something I should mention,something that I should mention
, is that I've often printed outthe ledger for the tenancy with
the landlord.
When, when there's been a bumplike you're talking about, and
this is how it goes we look atthe ledger and the tenant's
(09:00):
paying 40 grand a year and thetenant's been there for 10 years
and it's like, mr and MrsLandlord, you've collected
$427,752.52.
And within that you've got toallow some of this expenditure.
(09:20):
You've paid for your stratalevies to maintain the outside
and you've paid this much tomaintain the outside.
You've paid X and it's likemuch to maintain the outside.
You've paid X and it's like yousee that that penny drop with
with the landlord where they'regoing, uh-huh, uh-huh.
And if we go to war for you onthis particular items.
This will be the outcome.
(09:41):
They're like, really, it's likeyeah, you're not going to get
all your carpet replaced, likeyou just mentioned.
Oh, so a really good propertymanager is actually going to
nurse that, nurse that thatthrough, because that's reality.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
And when you get it arbitrated in a tribunal, it's
the way a member's going to lookat it it's true, and I love
what you said with the ledger,because sometimes there hasn't
been any upgrades in that timeand tenants kept maintenance
requests low.
So that's another thing that we, um, you know, we look at when
there is a little nick in thegyprock whilst they've been
(10:19):
moving or something like that.
I I really am confident to saythat I've.
The majority of our clients areso reasonable.
But on the flip side as well,being the property manager for
some of our clients for over10-15 years we know the tenant,
we know the property, we knowthe owner.
We mitigate all that during thelease agreement.
(10:41):
It's not at the end, it's atthe routine.
If we've noticed somethingthat's going to be an issue, we
do it then and there we don'twait till three years later down
the track.
We and we try to do that duringour inspections.
Um, but if you're a tenant outthere as well and you are
mistraining that property, restassured your property manager is
going to put a claim in on yourbond before, at the time, you
(11:03):
vacate.
So if we know that it's notgoing to be clean, what we've
asked to be fixed hasn't beenfixed, that claim claims going
in there and then, if you wishto um, you know, fix all those
things in a very timely manner,then we'll be considerate of
that as well.
So on the flip side, we do, youknow, we do have ways to bring
(11:25):
the property back to areasonable level straight away,
be it a pre-final inspection,arranging quotes from our
handyman to get things fixedprior, um, and just get an idea
of what it's going to cost, um,the tenant from their bond.
And then some tenants are like,yep, fair enough, I ran out of
time, just take 300 bucks fromthe bond for cleaning, or, yeah,
(11:46):
I damaged that.
As long as your propertymanager is working for you in
this outgoing process and, youknow, is a voice for both sides,
I feel like it can all bewrapped up in a couple of days,
from when you return the keys towhen we go and look at the
property, and then everyonemoves on and it all starts again
.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So, in conclusion, messy, no, it's called.
Lived in chic.
Mr landlord, the one word thatI heard resonate that that
everyone.
That'll be the most heavilyword used in this situation,
that you have used quite a fewtimes today, reasonable yeah,
(12:31):
and and like the heading says,lived in.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
You've got to live in the property and you have to be
reasonable with the end result,definitely and there's a show.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Thank you very much, claire, for your advice today.
See you later, thank you.
messy or trashed or what is that unit?
When your tenant moves out andyour landlord walks in?
Let's talk about thatdiscussion.
Stay tuned.
I'm the ringleader, so I'mgonna.
(00:29):
What is behind your shoulder?
Cleo Whittier.
Expert property manager.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
It's only been here the whole time I do Morning
Minutes.
That's the marble Venus de Milo, the famous sculpture that is
in the Louvre.
She should be in Greece, butanyway, let's not go there.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
In the Louvre.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah, she's been in the Louvre a long time.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
The replica, or that's the real one stolen.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
No, this is a replica .
Obviously.
The real one's like 6 foot 7foot tall.
But I remember we went thereand Brian was like let's go,
let's go visit, like Venus to mymum, like no, I'm not paying to
see something that should behere.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
But we did eventually go see her anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
This one is all marble and so is the the
platform she's sitting on, butthey're so hard to clean.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Marble's so porous that is so walkie of you, it's
so walkie, isn't it?
Yeah, what's?
And just just very quickly, whois venus demargo?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
well, she was part of the seven muses um, and it was
commissioned.
There was big you know thesesculptures back in the time and
I think it was I can't rememberwhich world war or wherever
where they took chunks of theparthenon away and a lot of all
the artifacts got stolen fromgrace and taken to all these
(02:00):
different countries england, youknow paris, and there's been a
huge movement over the years tobring back all the antiquities.
But the conjecture is that ifyou do that for Greece, then
they're going to have to do thatfor Egypt and then you know
they'll have nothing over there.
They'll have some oil paintings, wow.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Another thing we'll learn about you today there you
go, there you go.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
There you go, you're into your arts.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Now, cleo, tell me, this is a discussion you've just
recently had with a landlord.
This is a discussion youprobably have quite frequently,
daily with landlords, and it'swhen a tenant is in a property
and the landlord goes what, what, what?
Oh, that's not how I left theproperty, that's not what, how I
(02:55):
thought the property was in mybrain.
How does the conversation go?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Look, it comes to some real delicate negotiations.
A client always wants to knowthat you're in their corner and
that's predominantly that's whatwe do.
But we also have to bereasonable and in respect to the
tenant that's been there forover six to eight years, the
(03:24):
landlord does receive routinevideos.
However, they may not watchthem for one year, they may
forget about it, or whatever.
We go there twice a year, everyyear, and we see a property
change over time, especially ina big house.
You know, things come up,things arise.
A landlord might not remember,oh, oh, that retaining wall.
(03:47):
You know I reversed into that10 years ago and then all of a
sudden they see a chunk of brickgone and they're like, did the
tenant do that?
And we have to then refreshtheir memories.
So it is a comparable timelineof over, you know, eight to nine
years.
And then there's certain thingsthat we have to, as the
(04:11):
property manager say look,that's wear and tear, you need
to let that go, or that'ssomething that has depreciated,
you really should replace it nowanyway.
So it's a real long negotiation.
That's why the bond claim isoffered a two-week period to
(04:33):
settle or disputes, because inthat two weeks you can imagine
if you're negotiating a 10-yearum contract or you know tenancy.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
There's a lot of things you're going to go
through it must be a delicateconversation where the landlord
turns around and says who areyou working for?
You're working.
You should be working for me.
You should be in my side of thecorner.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
It's true, and we do go to that, you know, for both
sides, for the ownerpredominantly, but we also, you
know the tenant's also beenthere paying rent.
You know there's maintenancerequests that we have recorded
that the owner may haveoverlooked or things like that,
and it's our job to also mentionthat, you know, on behalf of
the tenant.
(05:15):
But yeah, look, we're notsaying that if a tenant's been
disrespectful and damaged theproperty, that we're not going
to, you know, make themaccountable by way of claiming
money from the bond.
We're not saying that at all.
That is what the ingrowingcondition report is for and
damage is very clearly damaged.
But where an owner feels damageand wear and tear are the same,
(05:39):
that's where we clash and needto, you know, have wind for both
sides if possible.
Um, because you know things aregoing to happen.
In a property you you do get,for example, carpets that are
stained.
It's an accident, it's not likethe tenant purposefully dropped
that cup of coffee, but theowner is not going to get
(06:03):
brand-new carpet out of thatstain.
They're going to get acompensation amount based on the
depreciation the carpet's overa certain amount of years.
It's a write-off.
The NCAT won't give you anymoney for it at all.
Anyway, they'll just say look,mr Owner, you've had that tenant
for 10, 12 years, now's thetime to replace the carpet.
Zero, they get no money for it.
(06:25):
So we need to refresh thelegislation terms to the client
when we're there.
But it doesn't mean that we'renot going to raise that, you
know, with the tenant.
How did this happen?
What's happened here, you know.
And then we'll come up with amonetary figure, not just off
the top of our head.
Through precedent cases,through NCAT calculations, we
(06:49):
work out a figure that is fairand just.
For example, when we're talkingabout stained carpets, there are
other things that come up, like, you know, if it's a wear and
tear item, like a blind that'sgoing up and down, up and down,
up and down for 10 years andthat blind cord is broken,
(07:10):
that's not the tenet of breakingit, that's the tenet of using
it and, as a result, over timeit's perished.
It needs to be replaced.
Sometimes the client will gowell, they've not been careful
with it.
I've lived in my house for 35years and I've had the same
blinds and none of them arebroken and we're like, I
understand.
But you know, there's certainthings, like if the balcony is,
(07:34):
you know, north-facing and itgets a lot of sun.
That plastic takes a lot fromthat and it will break in one to
two years if the tenant'sconstantly using it up and down
and it's there for you.
So these sorts of things arewhat we negotiate at the
outgoing with the landlord andthe tenant, and they always come
up the same things over andover.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So if it's not an experienced property manager
that handles their landlord andhandles their tenant and handles
the situation, they go to war.
This arbitration will happen ina tribunal situation.
(08:18):
It will cost the landlord timeand money and it will cost the
tenant time and money.
So I have to add, you've got tohave a gun, an absolute gun of
a property manager and inaddition to that you've got to
have awesome documentationdocumenting the evidence through
that period of the tenancy.
(08:38):
But something I should mention,something that I should mention
, is that I've often printed outthe ledger for the tenancy with
the landlord.
When, when there's been a bumplike you're talking about, and
this is how it goes we look atthe ledger and the tenant's
(09:00):
paying 40 grand a year and thetenant's been there for 10 years
and it's like, mr and MrsLandlord, you've collected
$427,752.52.
And within that you've got toallow some of this expenditure.
(09:20):
You've paid for your stratalevies to maintain the outside
and you've paid this much tomaintain the outside.
You've paid X and it's likemuch to maintain the outside.
You've paid X and it's like yousee that that penny drop with
with the landlord where they'regoing, uh-huh, uh-huh.
And if we go to war for you onthis particular items.
This will be the outcome.
(09:41):
They're like, really, it's likeyeah, you're not going to get
all your carpet replaced, likeyou just mentioned.
Oh, so a really good propertymanager is actually going to
nurse that, nurse that thatthrough, because that's reality.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
And when you get it arbitrated in a tribunal, it's
the way a member's going to lookat it it's true, and I love
what you said with the ledger,because sometimes there hasn't
been any upgrades in that timeand tenants kept maintenance
requests low.
So that's another thing that we, um, you know, we look at when
there is a little nick in thegyprock whilst they've been
(10:19):
moving or something like that.
I I really am confident to saythat I've.
The majority of our clients areso reasonable.
But on the flip side as well,being the property manager for
some of our clients for over10-15 years we know the tenant,
we know the property, we knowthe owner.
We mitigate all that during thelease agreement.
(10:41):
It's not at the end, it's atthe routine.
If we've noticed somethingthat's going to be an issue, we
do it then and there we don'twait till three years later down
the track.
We and we try to do that duringour inspections.
Um, but if you're a tenant outthere as well and you are
mistraining that property, restassured your property manager is
going to put a claim in on yourbond before, at the time, you
(11:03):
vacate.
So if we know that it's notgoing to be clean, what we've
asked to be fixed hasn't beenfixed, that claim claims going
in there and then, if you wishto um, you know, fix all those
things in a very timely manner,then we'll be considerate of
that as well.
So on the flip side, we do, youknow, we do have ways to bring
(11:25):
the property back to areasonable level straight away,
be it a pre-final inspection,arranging quotes from our
handyman to get things fixedprior, um, and just get an idea
of what it's going to cost, um,the tenant from their bond.
And then some tenants are like,yep, fair enough, I ran out of
time, just take 300 bucks fromthe bond for cleaning, or, yeah,
(11:46):
I damaged that.
As long as your propertymanager is working for you in
this outgoing process and, youknow, is a voice for both sides,
I feel like it can all bewrapped up in a couple of days,
from when you return the keys towhen we go and look at the
property, and then everyonemoves on and it all starts again
.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So, in conclusion, messy, no, it's called.
Lived in chic.
Mr landlord, the one word thatI heard resonate that that
everyone.
That'll be the most heavilyword used in this situation,
that you have used quite a fewtimes today, reasonable yeah,
(12:31):
and and like the heading says,lived in.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
You've got to live in the property and you have to be
reasonable with the end result,definitely and there's a show.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Thank you very much, claire, for your advice today.
See you later, thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.