May 28, 2025 • 14 mins
Ever wondered what really happens when property disputes reach the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal? This episode strips away the myths and misconceptions surrounding NCAT proceedings, revealing a process that's far from the dramatic courtroom scenes portrayed on television.
We explore the fundamental terminology and structure of tribunal hearings, clarifying the roles of applicants and respondents in these proceedings. The conversation demystifies what happens when you arrive at NCAT – from walking through metal detectors to sitting in conciliation rooms where most disputes are actually resolved. For tenants considering tribunal action, there's a crucial revelation: you're never actually "taking the agent to tribunal" – legally, your dispute is with the landlord, while the agent simply represents them.
The episode offers valuable insights into the conciliation process, where tenancy advocates often help both parties reach agreement without proceeding to a formal hearing. We share realistic expectations about timeframes, documentation requirements, and likely outcomes – including the fact that complete victories are rare, with compromise typically being necessary from both sides. For property managers and landlords, there's practical advice about preparing documentation and approaching these proceedings with the right mindset.
Whether you're a tenant considering your options after a bond dispute, a landlord facing a tribunal application, or simply curious about this important aspect of property management, this episode offers clarity and practical wisdom. Listen now to gain confidence in navigating what can otherwise be an intimidating process, and discover why experienced property managers view tribunal not as a failure, but sometimes simply as "a means to an end" in resolving disputes.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
law and order in real estate in properties landlords
suing tenants, tenants suinglandlords, agents suing suing.
We don't use the word suingmuch, but we're going to talk
about Tribunal, new South Walesand the birds and the bees of it
all.
It's not as bad as you think.
Stay tuned.
(00:38):
I'm the ringleader, so wake itup.
Good morning.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hi, good morning On this cold cold morning Isn't?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
it cold, it's cold.
How are you, cleo?
What's been happening?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I'm good.
I'm good, I'm just, you know,doing what I do.
I'm in the trenches, I'mworking, I'm dropping kids off
to school, I'm preparing forschool holidays coming up again
Just the norm, really.
When's school holidays comingup again?
Just the norm, really.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
When's school holidays?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
It's coming into July , so they just creep around.
This year I want to be preparedand have some things planned,
because we did a boring lot thelast one.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
so that's the month where all you Greeks go to
Greece.
That's the summer.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I know my dad's there already and we promised each
other we would all go as afamily next year.
I've been saying next year forfive years now, so probably next
year We'll see how we go.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Book it in.
Book it in.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I know.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
All right, hot topic, you do hear about it in the
industry tenants taking ownersto tribunal owners, taking
tenants to tribunal people,getting it mixed up.
We want to clear up a couple ofthings today of what actually
happens in that tribunalsituation.
The bare basics cleo, you're aveteran.
(02:28):
How many times you reckonyou've been there?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I've probably been in my entire career probably about
30 times.
Um, I don't see going to ncatas a failure.
Sometimes it's just a means toan end.
You can't negotiate anymore andsomeone has to make the
decision.
Um, with NCAT, the two mainterminology used is probably the
(02:54):
applicant and the respondent.
So it's someone applying forwhatever reason.
They want their bond back, theywant compensation, and then the
respondent is the person goingin response to that application.
So often what will happen is abond will be frozen by an agent.
(03:16):
For example, at the finalinspection there's maintenance
or damages and things and theowner says I would like you to
claim $200, $800 from the bondor the entire bond.
Whoever applies for that bondfirst means that they've
essentially become therespondent.
(03:36):
So I've gotten in there first,I've claimed the money.
If you're not happy with that,you've got two weeks to apply to
NCAP.
So then the tenant becomes theapplicant because they are
applying for their bond andthey're not agreeing with the
agent's decision to make a claimagainst the bond, in which case
then the agent becomes therespondent to the application
(04:00):
and each side has to show youknow why they should have that
money and it's always to do withmoney, usually to do with money
.
I think moving forward we mighthave more to do with vacancy,
with the new legislation, anowner wanting their property
back or a tenant not wanting tomove.
That side of things you knowthat won't be about money.
(04:24):
But I've usually turned up toncap over money, over claims
that need to be um governed bysomeone else um.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
now can you please explain what it is, because I
think most of us think court, um, and they think you know
there's a judge with the whitewig on and there's lawyers, but
it's called the New South WalesAdministrative Tribunal.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
It is, and it's not just for real estate, it is for
all consumers.
So it has to do with shops, ithas to do with companies.
It's not.
It's not just real estatetenants and agents.
If, for example, you're nothappy with your builder, or you
know you purchased a product,doesn't, you can eat.
(05:20):
That's all done in thistribunal setting.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
The confusing thing for people.
Sorry, claire, but theconfusing thing for people is
these guys have changed theirname so many times over the last
20 years.
It used to be Consumer Affairs.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I know, and Tribunal was a big one.
I'm taking you to Tribunal,tribunal, it's Tribunal Fair
trading.
You know I'm taking you totribunal, tribunal, it's
tribunal.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Fair trading.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
You know we're going to fair trading and it used to
be on Pitt Street and it was inthis really old building where
they used to have a radiostation, also in the building.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
The AWA Tower yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it was.
And the lift was really old andoften there was, like you know,
the curtain sheets in there andit was like you were going up to
your sudden death.
It was like where am I going?
But now it's not.
It's in Goldman Street, number66.
So look, when you go to NCAT,the process is pretty much the
(06:26):
same.
Every time you go you have yourpaperwork.
That's what it means for agents.
It's a lot of paperwork, andthen you sit in front of a court
member.
They don't have a wig, it's notlike on tv.
Everyone sits in the roomtogether, all the cases together
, and what the member does iscall out all the applicants and
(06:51):
who is the respondent.
Now, when you're an applicantand you're a tenant, you think
I'm taking the agent, or you'reangry at the agent or the
property manager, but you'renever taking the agent.
You're taking the landlord.
So when you're a tenant outthere and you're doing an
application, just rememberthey'll correct you when you go
to NCAT anyway, but you aretaking the landlord.
(07:13):
We have a managing agencyagreement.
We work on behalf of thelandlord with a hand yeah,
exactly, exactly so.
You know, I've seen applicationswith you know Mark Novak's name
on it, my name on it.
They'll put the at the end ofthe business on there and then
that member just says like whois the landlord, what is the
property?
And that paperwork gets amendedfor the landlord's name because
(07:38):
that's who you are taking toNCAT.
Essentially.
It's the landlord, anyway.
So they call out all the namesand you may really think you're
going to get heard on that day.
But the member says straightaway if both parties are here,
you need to go into theconciliation rooms and we'd like
you to negotiate, or attempt tonegotiate on your own.
(08:00):
If I get involved, after you'vewalked through a metal detector
oh yeah, you go through themetal detector and there's
security there with you know, Idon't know if they're guns or
they're things like you knowtasers or something, but they've
got.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
They've got weapons yeah, like you could imagine
some like neighborly disputesreally getting personal you.
So it's like you know you armup before you go in.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I know, I know it is and it's.
You know it is a bit dauntingand sometimes there is a lot of
hatred in the room.
I, you know, go in to NCAT withthe same mindset always that
we're there to represent eitherthe client or to help the tenant
and get a resolve.
You can contact the owner atany time.
(08:47):
This is what the tenant'soffering.
Are you happy to accept thatwhen you go into the
conciliation room you have tosit there with the tenant and
sometimes the owner's present aswell, because sometimes they
like to come and that's totallyfine.
And then you have to hash itout between yourselves and
sometimes that can get reallypersonal and tenants get their
(09:09):
back up or they haven't beenthrough this process or some
have been through the process alot and they know exactly what
they're doing.
But then a tenancy advocacymember comes in, so they're
basically a lawyer for thetenant and they sit there, but
they also work for ncap.
So they're like, if we can tidyall this up without having a
(09:31):
seat in that room, without avery expensive member, we will
try and do that.
So they sit there and they hearthe tenant out, they hear the
agent out and it'll all comedown to facts and legislation.
Well, no, you can't do that.
Or look, what does the ownerreally want?
Would they be happy with this?
Um, sometimes they negotiatethe date.
If the tenant says I haven'tfound anywhere, they'll say all
(09:54):
right, do you reckon you'll findsomewhere in two weeks?
They go no, I might findsomething in four months.
They go, well, that's not goingto happen.
So then they, we, they somehowtry to get you to meet in the
middle.
I always I probably 99% of thetime end up negotiating in that
conciliation room, because I doprepare the landlord not to take
(10:15):
a loss but to be accepting ofthe process.
It's not going to go.
You know 100% your way.
Ever it never really ends upthat way.
So you have to be prepared togive and then we negotiate in
that room.
If you can't negotiate, thenthey say okay, we can't
negotiate.
You go in front of the member.
The member will look around theroom there's usually about five
(10:37):
other hearings on that timeframe and then they'll send you
away for another two or threeweeks and they'll say you need
to give the agent all thesedocuments and you need to give
that tenant all your documents.
And once we exchange documents,it can.
The process can take a verylong time.
So if you're a tenant out thereand you think you're just going
(11:01):
to go there and get what youwant and leave that day, the
chances of that it's like agolden unicorn it never happens.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So that little room that they send you off to that
person that keeps popping theirhead in the room is a member of
the tribunal and they sort oftry to facilitate the agent
conversation, the landlordconversation if they're tenant,
and the tenant conversation.
They're pretty accurate.
Those guys Like they'll tellyou how it's going to play out
(11:31):
and you're like no way, I'mgoing to.
And then when it goes oppositethe member, are they normally
right, those guys?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I think normally they are.
You know, I think they're likean idiot detector.
They come in there and they'relike, if they think that
someone's you know not going toplay ball, they don't waste
their time.
They're just like okay, thisisn't going to go in front of
the member, they're not willingto give anything, you know.
So they come in there and they,yeah, they kind of test the
(12:01):
waters and I, you know, over theyears I've got to know quite a
lot of them.
I don't it's not personal foran agent, although it feels
personal sometimes with thetenant, because sometimes you,
you know, you build a rapportwith these people.
For years I've been to NCATwith tenants that have been in
the property for eight or tenyears.
You know you build a rapportwith these people.
For years I've been to NCATwith tenants that have been in
the property for eight or 10years, you know, and it's it
(12:24):
seems like a little bit of adefeat when you end up there,
but you know, as long as,whatever it is that you, you
know, we do everything with asmuch integrity as we feel we
have.
You know if, if there's photos,if there's emails, if there's
evidence, you know that's whatwe go by and it's the landlord's
(12:48):
wish, it's not our wish.
You know to take $1,200 fromyour bond or serve, you notice,
it's just the circumstance athand.
You know we are the messenger.
So, and the same thing goeswith the landlord.
You know if they aredisappointed with the outcome,
um, it's out of our hands.
You know there is a certainamount of leeway that both sides
(13:08):
are given, but no one walksaway victorious.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Put it that way yeah right so before, yeah right so
before we go.
Any last words on tribunalstuff.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I am looking forward to using AI.
This time I'm going to put allmy documents through AI and say
can you formulate a tablenumbered?
You know, with an index, allthat stuff we hate doing this
properly, managers, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, you know, with anindex, all that stuff we hate
doing as property managers.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
That's my law and order coming on.
So what did you say?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I'm looking forward to using ai to formulate my
documents, because I don't havea lot of time, so I'm just gonna
pop in all my evidence and saycan you, you know, make this a
table and number it and just allthat tedious stuff that takes
ages to do.
So I'll see how that goes, I'lllet you know.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Thank you for sharing all of your IP not all of it,
but some of it on tribunals, andgood luck out there.
It's a minefield.
Thanks, cleo.
Bye, take care, see you.
law and order in real estate in properties landlords
suing tenants, tenants suinglandlords, agents suing suing.
We don't use the word suingmuch, but we're going to talk
about Tribunal, new South Walesand the birds and the bees of it
all.
It's not as bad as you think.
Stay tuned.
(00:38):
I'm the ringleader, so wake itup.
Good morning.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hi, good morning On this cold cold morning Isn't?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
it cold, it's cold.
How are you, cleo?
What's been happening?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
I'm good.
I'm good, I'm just, you know,doing what I do.
I'm in the trenches, I'mworking, I'm dropping kids off
to school, I'm preparing forschool holidays coming up again
Just the norm, really.
When's school holidays comingup again?
Just the norm, really.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
When's school holidays?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
It's coming into July , so they just creep around.
This year I want to be preparedand have some things planned,
because we did a boring lot thelast one.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
so that's the month where all you Greeks go to
Greece.
That's the summer.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I know my dad's there already and we promised each
other we would all go as afamily next year.
I've been saying next year forfive years now, so probably next
year We'll see how we go.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Book it in.
Book it in.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I know.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
All right, hot topic, you do hear about it in the
industry tenants taking ownersto tribunal owners, taking
tenants to tribunal people,getting it mixed up.
We want to clear up a couple ofthings today of what actually
happens in that tribunalsituation.
The bare basics cleo, you're aveteran.
(02:28):
How many times you reckonyou've been there?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I've probably been in my entire career probably about
30 times.
Um, I don't see going to ncatas a failure.
Sometimes it's just a means toan end.
You can't negotiate anymore andsomeone has to make the
decision.
Um, with NCAT, the two mainterminology used is probably the
(02:54):
applicant and the respondent.
So it's someone applying forwhatever reason.
They want their bond back, theywant compensation, and then the
respondent is the person goingin response to that application.
So often what will happen is abond will be frozen by an agent.
(03:16):
For example, at the finalinspection there's maintenance
or damages and things and theowner says I would like you to
claim $200, $800 from the bondor the entire bond.
Whoever applies for that bondfirst means that they've
essentially become therespondent.
(03:36):
So I've gotten in there first,I've claimed the money.
If you're not happy with that,you've got two weeks to apply to
NCAP.
So then the tenant becomes theapplicant because they are
applying for their bond andthey're not agreeing with the
agent's decision to make a claimagainst the bond, in which case
then the agent becomes therespondent to the application
(04:00):
and each side has to show youknow why they should have that
money and it's always to do withmoney, usually to do with money
.
I think moving forward we mighthave more to do with vacancy,
with the new legislation, anowner wanting their property
back or a tenant not wanting tomove.
That side of things you knowthat won't be about money.
(04:24):
But I've usually turned up toncap over money, over claims
that need to be um governed bysomeone else um.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
now can you please explain what it is, because I
think most of us think court, um, and they think you know
there's a judge with the whitewig on and there's lawyers, but
it's called the New South WalesAdministrative Tribunal.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
It is, and it's not just for real estate, it is for
all consumers.
So it has to do with shops, ithas to do with companies.
It's not.
It's not just real estatetenants and agents.
If, for example, you're nothappy with your builder, or you
know you purchased a product,doesn't, you can eat.
(05:20):
That's all done in thistribunal setting.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
The confusing thing for people.
Sorry, claire, but theconfusing thing for people is
these guys have changed theirname so many times over the last
20 years.
It used to be Consumer Affairs.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I know, and Tribunal was a big one.
I'm taking you to Tribunal,tribunal, it's Tribunal Fair
trading.
You know I'm taking you totribunal, tribunal, it's
tribunal.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Fair trading.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
You know we're going to fair trading and it used to
be on Pitt Street and it was inthis really old building where
they used to have a radiostation, also in the building.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
The AWA Tower yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it was.
And the lift was really old andoften there was, like you know,
the curtain sheets in there andit was like you were going up to
your sudden death.
It was like where am I going?
But now it's not.
It's in Goldman Street, number66.
So look, when you go to NCAT,the process is pretty much the
(06:26):
same.
Every time you go you have yourpaperwork.
That's what it means for agents.
It's a lot of paperwork, andthen you sit in front of a court
member.
They don't have a wig, it's notlike on tv.
Everyone sits in the roomtogether, all the cases together
, and what the member does iscall out all the applicants and
(06:51):
who is the respondent.
Now, when you're an applicantand you're a tenant, you think
I'm taking the agent, or you'reangry at the agent or the
property manager, but you'renever taking the agent.
You're taking the landlord.
So when you're a tenant outthere and you're doing an
application, just rememberthey'll correct you when you go
to NCAT anyway, but you aretaking the landlord.
(07:13):
We have a managing agencyagreement.
We work on behalf of thelandlord with a hand yeah,
exactly, exactly so.
You know, I've seen applicationswith you know Mark Novak's name
on it, my name on it.
They'll put the at the end ofthe business on there and then
that member just says like whois the landlord, what is the
property?
And that paperwork gets amendedfor the landlord's name because
(07:38):
that's who you are taking toNCAT.
Essentially.
It's the landlord, anyway.
So they call out all the namesand you may really think you're
going to get heard on that day.
But the member says straightaway if both parties are here,
you need to go into theconciliation rooms and we'd like
you to negotiate, or attempt tonegotiate on your own.
(08:00):
If I get involved, after you'vewalked through a metal detector
oh yeah, you go through themetal detector and there's
security there with you know, Idon't know if they're guns or
they're things like you knowtasers or something, but they've
got.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
They've got weapons yeah, like you could imagine
some like neighborly disputesreally getting personal you.
So it's like you know you armup before you go in.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I know, I know it is and it's.
You know it is a bit dauntingand sometimes there is a lot of
hatred in the room.
I, you know, go in to NCAT withthe same mindset always that
we're there to represent eitherthe client or to help the tenant
and get a resolve.
You can contact the owner atany time.
(08:47):
This is what the tenant'soffering.
Are you happy to accept thatwhen you go into the
conciliation room you have tosit there with the tenant and
sometimes the owner's present aswell, because sometimes they
like to come and that's totallyfine.
And then you have to hash itout between yourselves and
sometimes that can get reallypersonal and tenants get their
(09:09):
back up or they haven't beenthrough this process or some
have been through the process alot and they know exactly what
they're doing.
But then a tenancy advocacymember comes in, so they're
basically a lawyer for thetenant and they sit there, but
they also work for ncap.
So they're like, if we can tidyall this up without having a
(09:31):
seat in that room, without avery expensive member, we will
try and do that.
So they sit there and they hearthe tenant out, they hear the
agent out and it'll all comedown to facts and legislation.
Well, no, you can't do that.
Or look, what does the ownerreally want?
Would they be happy with this?
Um, sometimes they negotiatethe date.
If the tenant says I haven'tfound anywhere, they'll say all
(09:54):
right, do you reckon you'll findsomewhere in two weeks?
They go no, I might findsomething in four months.
They go, well, that's not goingto happen.
So then they, we, they somehowtry to get you to meet in the
middle.
I always I probably 99% of thetime end up negotiating in that
conciliation room, because I doprepare the landlord not to take
(10:15):
a loss but to be accepting ofthe process.
It's not going to go.
You know 100% your way.
Ever it never really ends upthat way.
So you have to be prepared togive and then we negotiate in
that room.
If you can't negotiate, thenthey say okay, we can't
negotiate.
You go in front of the member.
The member will look around theroom there's usually about five
(10:37):
other hearings on that timeframe and then they'll send you
away for another two or threeweeks and they'll say you need
to give the agent all thesedocuments and you need to give
that tenant all your documents.
And once we exchange documents,it can.
The process can take a verylong time.
So if you're a tenant out thereand you think you're just going
(11:01):
to go there and get what youwant and leave that day, the
chances of that it's like agolden unicorn it never happens.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So that little room that they send you off to that
person that keeps popping theirhead in the room is a member of
the tribunal and they sort oftry to facilitate the agent
conversation, the landlordconversation if they're tenant,
and the tenant conversation.
They're pretty accurate.
Those guys Like they'll tellyou how it's going to play out
(11:31):
and you're like no way, I'mgoing to.
And then when it goes oppositethe member, are they normally
right, those guys?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I think normally they are.
You know, I think they're likean idiot detector.
They come in there and they'relike, if they think that
someone's you know not going toplay ball, they don't waste
their time.
They're just like okay, thisisn't going to go in front of
the member, they're not willingto give anything, you know.
So they come in there and they,yeah, they kind of test the
(12:01):
waters and I, you know, over theyears I've got to know quite a
lot of them.
I don't it's not personal foran agent, although it feels
personal sometimes with thetenant, because sometimes you,
you know, you build a rapportwith these people.
For years I've been to NCATwith tenants that have been in
the property for eight or tenyears.
You know you build a rapportwith these people.
For years I've been to NCATwith tenants that have been in
the property for eight or 10years, you know, and it's it
(12:24):
seems like a little bit of adefeat when you end up there,
but you know, as long as,whatever it is that you, you
know, we do everything with asmuch integrity as we feel we
have.
You know if, if there's photos,if there's emails, if there's
evidence, you know that's whatwe go by and it's the landlord's
(12:48):
wish, it's not our wish.
You know to take $1,200 fromyour bond or serve, you notice,
it's just the circumstance athand.
You know we are the messenger.
So, and the same thing goeswith the landlord.
You know if they aredisappointed with the outcome,
um, it's out of our hands.
You know there is a certainamount of leeway that both sides
(13:08):
are given, but no one walksaway victorious.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Put it that way yeah right so before, yeah right so
before we go.
Any last words on tribunalstuff.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I am looking forward to using AI.
This time I'm going to put allmy documents through AI and say
can you formulate a tablenumbered?
You know, with an index, allthat stuff we hate doing this
properly, managers, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, you know, with anindex, all that stuff we hate
doing as property managers.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
That's my law and order coming on.
So what did you say?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I'm looking forward to using ai to formulate my
documents, because I don't havea lot of time, so I'm just gonna
pop in all my evidence and saycan you, you know, make this a
table and number it and just allthat tedious stuff that takes
ages to do.
So I'll see how that goes, I'lllet you know.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Thank you for sharing all of your IP not all of it,
but some of it on tribunals, andgood luck out there.
It's a minefield.
Thanks, cleo.
Bye, take care, see you.
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