December 3, 2024 • 39 mins
Discover the transformative world of functional medicine with Dr. Terri Fox, a leading expert in mold toxicity from Boulder, Colorado. Learn how environmental toxins, particularly mycotoxins from water-damaged buildings, contribute to chronic illness and what you can do to heal. Dr. Fox outlines a two-phase treatment protocol focusing on safe detox, antifungals, and biofilm disruptors, alongside essential recovery strategies like infrared saunas, gut health, and mitochondrial support. Unlock actionable insights and explore Dr. Fox’s Mold Treatment Master Class to take control of your health and well-being.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nika Lawrie (00:06):
Welcome to the Inspired with Nika Lawrie
podcast.
Dr Terry Fox, welcome to theshow.
I'm so happy to have you heretoday.
Dr. Terri Fox (00:21):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Nika Lawrie (00:23):
Yeah, so we were talking just a little bit before
we started recording, becausewe're going to talk about mold
toxicity today and, like I saidto you earlier, I'm really
excited to learn from youbecause I know a lot about
toxins, or toxics really, andendocrine disruptors and all the
different chemicals that areimpacting us, but molds play
(00:44):
such a huge role and it's kindof in that toxicity world and so
I'm really excited to learnfrom you about that today.
Dr. Terri Fox (00:52):
I'm excited.
Nika Lawrie (00:53):
Yeah, so you are a functional medicine doctor based
in Boulder, Colorado.
Can you tell me a little bitabout your backstory?
How did you get into functionalmedicine and what really
inspired you to head down thatroute?
Dr. Terri Fox (01:06):
Yeah.
So I really sort of wanted tobe a naturopath and was always,
you know, very I alwaysgravitated towards the natural
world and the natural approachand I have a background in
medicinal herbs, westernmedicinal herbs, awesome and I
(01:36):
sort of just figured if I couldget through medical school and
residency, then I couldintegrate, you know, integrative
holistic medicine and learnfunctional medicine, and that if
I went to, you know,naturopathic school or something
else, it's not the reverse, isnot true?
And so I sort of had thatdesire from the outset.
Yeah, and so then after myresidency, I did a board
certification in integrativeholistic medicine and then I
(01:56):
studied a lot of functionalmedicine.
I did all their modules,awesome and then I did
functional medicine forschedules and then I did
functional medicine for, I don'tknow 20 years, and maybe 10
years in or something, it becameapparent that a lot of the most
sick people that don't reallyrespond to the normal functional
(02:17):
medicine approaches all had alot of biotoxin illness, which
is like mold toxicity, lymedisease, lyme co-infections, and
so then I sort of pivoted intolearning a lot about that and
then it's one of those things assoon as you start learning a
little bit, they just walk inyour door.
(02:41):
So somehow now people just walkin and they go.
I am mold, help me.
Nika Lawrie (02:45):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I think it's becausethere's such a need for it and
so few people that are reallyone just an expert in it but
also just really talking aboutthe issue.
You know, building awarenessit's.
So few people realize howdevastating mold exposure can be
and then kind of the prevalenceof Lyme disease in the last few
(03:07):
years too, seems like it'sreally increased quite a bit as
well.
Dr. Terri Fox (03:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Nika Lawrie (03:14):
Yeah, Can you?
So let's just start from thebasics.
Can you just talk about what ismold toxicity and how does that
really impact?
Or how can that lead tocreating chronic conditions in
people?
Dr. Terri Fox (03:28):
Yeah, so mold, and when I'm speaking about mold
I'm speaking aboutwater-damaged building molds,
not like outdoor molds in thetrees, but so some of the molds
that can grow in water damagedbuildings release mycotoxins.
So mycotoxins are the toxinsthat mold releases that is
(03:52):
pathogenic or disease causing tohumans.
And so what can happen is youknow you get, you're in a house
and maybe you don't know thatthere's mold, and you know it's
a, it's a humid day, andeventually you breathe, you know
, a spore into your sinuses oryou start breathing mycotoxins.
And then it turns out that andI think this number is changing
(04:16):
for a variety of reasons wecould get into but it used to be
that only 25% of the populationis sensitive to mold.
So it can be pretty confusingin a family when only one person
or two people out of four issick.
And then how could it possiblybe the house?
So you know it can make it alittle tricky to figure out.
(04:37):
But so what happens is so a lotof these mycotoxins are
neurotoxins, which means theyattack our nervous system, so
our central nervous system, ourperipheral nerves, and what can
happen over time is that yourbucket will fill up with these
(04:57):
mycotoxins, and if it fills allthe way up to the top and
overflows.
Then the system crashes.
And so I talk a lot about withmy patients total body burden
and so you know sometimes maybeyou could have tolerated a
certain amount of mold in thehouse.
But then you know, so you'reborn and let's say you have a
(05:19):
bucket full of toxins andinfections and things and you
get some exposure to plasticsand pesticides and glyphosate
and then maybe you have somebiotoxin from Lyme or Lyme
co-infections and then maybe yougot a couple COVIDs with a lot
of inflammation and then you endup in a moldy place and your
bucket overflows and the systemcrashes.
Nika Lawrie (05:42):
That's such a great way to.
It's such a good metaphor tokind of explain the overall, you
know, environmental toxins thatwe're exposed to, and yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (05:51):
Yeah, when I find by the time people have come to
me their system has crashed andso you can, you know sort of
work on any of those parts ofthe bucket you know heavy metals
, environmental exposures I findmold to be really, really
treatable and a really greatdiagnosis because people do so
well and you feel better thewhole way.
(06:13):
There's not like a gettingworse before you get better,
like with Lyme or some otherthings.
The hard part of mold is ifyou're still in a moldy building
and you have to either move orsell it or remediate it, then
it's hard but actually treatingit and the clinical turnaround
is amazing.
So when I have somebody with asystem crash and a full bucket
(06:36):
and if there's mold, I almostalways just start there because
a lot of times that's enough tolower the total body burden so
that you're not so symptomaticand you have a little more
resiliency to the world.
Nika Lawrie (06:48):
What are some of the symptoms that you see like
when people come into youroffice?
What are the most common ones?
How do we start to identifythat?
It may be a more issue, yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (06:56):
So I'll sort of tell you all of them and then
I'll tell you some of the mostcommon.
So you can kind of you begin tosee patterns?
yeah, yeah.
So fatigue, brain fog,cognitive dysfunctions of all
kinds, word recall, memory loss,difficulty focus, concentration
, and then a lot of headachesand migraines, a lot of insomnia
(07:21):
and anxiety, depression in some, and then a lot of unusual
neurological symptoms andpresentations that don't fit
into any neurological diagnosis.
So like you can haveasymmetrical numbness, tingling,
weakness, burning musclefasciculations, weakness,
(07:44):
burning muscle fasciculations,like involuntary muscle
movements.
You can get dizzy, ataxic,which means your balance is off
ice, pick sensations, burningsensations, a lot of weird
neurological stuff.
And then there's a rapid weightgain or weight loss.
That's sort of an unexplainableweight gain or weight loss.
(08:04):
And's sort of an unexplainableweight gain or weight loss and
that's always a tip off for me.
And then in kids it presents alot more neuropsych.
So headaches and tummy achesare common fatigue and some
brain fog, but it's also a lotmore like OCD and tics and
sensory integration, anxiety,depression and you can get PANS
(08:26):
from mold.
Are you familiar with?
I'm not.
No, what is PANS?
Yeah, pediatric Acute OnsetNeuropsychiatric Syndrome.
Nika Lawrie (08:35):
Oh, okay, I have heard of that before, but yeah.
You probably know what PANSdoes, yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (08:40):
Yeah, yeah, so it can cause PANS in kids and
those are, you know, that's themajority of you know there's
some visual changes.
But when in a history, whensomebody has, you know, fatigue,
brain fog, maybe either anxietyor insomnia, and then they also
have some neurological thingsand then also some weight gain
(09:03):
or weight loss, you know, andthen I, the way I work with
patients is, I'll go through thetimeline, so like, well, where
were you living when you firstgot sick and then, and then, for
how long, where were you here?
And then sometimes you can justtell like, oh well, it started
when I was, you know, threemonths after I moved into this
(09:23):
place in Portland, and you know,and then they've got all the
symptoms and said, wow, it'sworth it to do the test.
Nika Lawrie (09:30):
Yeah, yeah, do you find I know so.
I live in New Mexico where it'spretty arid and dry.
There's not a whole lot ofmoisture here, so we don't tend
to see a lot of mold, thoughthere is.
You know, we do have to becareful with our showers,
bathrooms, those kind of places.
Do you find that you seeclients more from?
You know the Midwest, whereit's kind of wetter, or back
(09:52):
east?
What do you start to see?
Dr. Terri Fox (09:55):
I see it all over yeah.
So, regardless of the climate,Definitely, in a very humid
climate it is a lot harder toget to find yourself a clean
space, but, like here at Boulder, it's also really dry.
But we had in 2013, we had thishuge flood and because it's so
(10:19):
dry like we don't, nobody hereknows what to do when you have
water damage.
So like people just put a fanon the wet carpet and the wet
drywall and just left it andthen two years later they're all
sickening in my office, um, andso you know, it's pretty hard
to find a not moldy space wherein boulder and denver is kind of
the same and they didn't havethe flood it's not quite as bad,
(10:41):
um, but yeah, I mean, I thinkit's a little trickier in a
really humid climate, but we wekind of see it all over I
remember that flood my my sisterlives in boulder.
Nika Lawrie (10:50):
She's been up there for years now and I remember
that flood and how crazy it wasand her dealing with it and oh
my gosh, and I feel so horriblefor the all of florida and north
carolina I know I just keepgetting flooded and flooded
again.
I feel so worried for all thosepeople yeah, it's, it's so scary
, I know, and how much you know.
(11:11):
The weather's changing, climatechange and all these things too
.
So but anyways, back to themold toxicity.
How so, once you have thesymptoms, you go see a physician
?
How are you guys testing for it?
What are the methods and how doyou figure out if people are
actually having mold issues?
Dr. Terri Fox (11:27):
Yeah.
So I recommend urinarymycotoxin testing, and so what
that means is you know, you takea urine sample and you're
looking for those toxins thatmold releases.
And there's two that I like touse.
My favorite is Real-Time Labs,mostly because it's been around
(11:49):
the longest and I trust it and Ikind of know the people over
there.
It's very specific, meaning youdon't get a lot of false
positives or false positivesfrom foods as opposed to water,
damaged buildings, but it's notas sensitive, so you'll miss a
(12:11):
decent amount of people.
So I do a really big provocationmeaning so that the people that
get sick from mold are the onesthat can't detox it, they can't
metabolize it and get it out inthe urine, the stool and the
sweat, and so you know, if youjust do a spot urine on them,
you might not catch it, becauseif they were metabolizing it
(12:31):
they might probably not end upin my office.
And so I do an IV ofphosphatidylcholine and
glutathione and then we collectthe urine after and then I also,
like Vibrant, does a mycotoxintest.
That I think is pretty legit.
I like theirs too.
Awesome.
But those are what.
Nika Lawrie (12:50):
I recommend Okay, and so most people are going to
go into an office to see aphysician.
It's not something that theycan likely test at home just to
see if they have that exposure.
Dr. Terri Fox (13:00):
They can, they can.
So the Vibrant does not need tobe provoked and you can just do
that.
One does not need to beprovoked and you can just do
that one.
And if you don't have access toyou know me or someone like me,
would I be like that?
Then you do as much liposomalglutathione for like five days
(13:21):
before and then you try to do aninfrared sauna or at the very
least like a detox bath beforethe real-time labs.
One to provoke it.
Yeah, okay, that makes sense,definitely.
Nika Lawrie (13:31):
So I want to ask when we so let's just come up
with you know a fake client orpatient, right?
So we know they have thesymptoms, they come in, they get
the test, they test positivefor having these molds, the
exposure.
So what does it look like?
I want to kind of do acomparison of what it would look
(13:54):
like to do a more conventionaltreatment versus how you would
treat them with more of aholistic or functional medicine
approach.
Can you break out what the twodifferences and what they might
look like, if there is adifference at all?
Dr. Terri Fox (14:06):
So it's a fun question.
So I don't think there is aconventional approach to mold.
Okay, well then that's theanswer.
Yeah, I don't think allopathicmedicine believes in mold yet.
Nika Lawrie (14:17):
Yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (14:19):
Maybe, maybe it was a trick question, right.
Right, I think you know the wayI treat it might be a little
bit more functionally andholistically oriented, but I
think anybody treating it is inthat world.
Nika Lawrie (14:30):
Yeah, Okay, makes sense.
So what does that look like atreatment for you?
How do you start supportingthese individuals?
Dr. Terri Fox (14:38):
Yeah.
So you know, I tend to seepretty chronically ill, complex
patients, and so the beginning,you know, when we first get the
mycotoxin test back.
So there's different bindersthat bind different strains of
mycotoxins and so you have toknow which ones you have in
(15:02):
order to know which binders totake.
So binders are things likeactivated charcoal that night
clay, clostyramine, you knowsome other things, and that's
sort of one of the pitfalls ofthe things that people they try
to treat it themselves and theyjust go on one binder and it
might be the wrong binder.
That's, yeah, that was one ofthe questions I was going to ask
(15:23):
.
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of acommon one.
So there's specific binders forspecific strains of mycotoxins
and so I split my treatment intotwo phases.
So phase one is basicallyteaching the body how to pull
out these mycotoxins, and we dothat through, you know,
gradually increasing binders anddoing all the right binders we
(15:45):
need for your unique mycotoxinload.
We do liposomal glutathione,because that's critical in order
to detox and metabolize thesemycotoxins, get them out in the
urine, the stool and the sweat.
And then, you know, I do a lotof organ detox support, so
kidney, liver, lymph drainage,so you can just begin using your
own detoxification channels tobegin draining that bucket down
(16:09):
a little bit.
And then you know there's acouple other parts to that, to
phase one.
And then I also give them abiotoxin relief handout that
gives you all the things thathelp pull out mycotoxins, things
like infrared sauna and ionicfoot baths and you know stuff
like that.
And so they.
You know however long it takesin phase one for them to get up
(16:33):
to full doses of binders andhaving daily movements because
they're constipating.
And once they've done that forfour weeks then the body's
usually ready for phase two,usually ready for phase two.
But I have people go up realgradually on their binders,
making sure they feel nothing orbetter before increasing doses.
(16:55):
So in mold you really don'twant to suffer in your protocol
because it just doesn't getthere any faster.
You're mobilizing things todifferent parts of the body,
certain diseases that we treat.
There's a little bit ofdiscomfort and pain you have to
get through.
But if you're doing the moldprotocol right you should always
(17:15):
feel better and nothing.
And so, yeah, that's phase oneis sort of training the body how
to pull out these things andbeginning to lower that total
body burden.
Nika Lawrie (17:27):
Yeah, so you said there was a second phase.
What is that phase?
Dr. Terri Fox (17:30):
Yeah.
So phase two is antifungals andbiofilm.
So the theory is that if thisis from a previous exposure,
these mycotoxins we're findingin the urine, that you know.
Let's say you first got sicksomewhere you lived a few years
ago.
You don't live there anymore.
(17:50):
What can happen is you cancolonize in the upper
respiratory tract or the GItract and that just means that
you sort of brought it with you.
It's sort of in you.
And the example I always use isyou know, imagine you're
sleeping in a house at mold andit's a humid day and you know,
(18:11):
eventually the spores aresporulating in the air and the
breathing air and you mightbreathe one up into your.
The sinuses are the most commonplace of colonization and they
can stick and then they canreplicate and have babies and
build communities and families.
And then they aggregatetogether and they form a colony
and then they create thisglycoprotein matrix around them
(18:33):
that's called biofilm and thatprotects them from our immune
system.
So like we can't really, ourimmune cells can't really see
past the biofilm and ourantifungal agents can't get us
biofilm either.
So phase two so you can imagine, in phase one we're binding all
these toxins and we're loweringthat total body burden.
(18:55):
But if there's mold actuallyliving in us, it's going to
continue to release moremycotoxins.
So you might be able to kind ofkeep your boat afloat by
bucketing out the water, butyou're going to have to do that
forever, unless we actually getat the source yeah.
Yeah, and so the source is, youknow getting doing antifungals
(19:18):
and you know do a lot of liversupport with that, and then at
the very end we open up biofilmand we open up biofilm and so
yeah, so it's.
I feel like it's so.
It's a kind of a complicatedprotocol, like binders have to
be done two hours away, blah,blah, blah.
But like I said, I mean peoplethey do really well.
(19:41):
Like two weeks on the rightbinders, you get a turnaround if
they're no longer being exposed, and then once you start them
on antifungals, then you reallyget a big clinical turnaround
usually, and so, yeah, that'slovely, that's huge yeah.
Nika Lawrie (19:57):
I'm glad you kind of covered that, because I was
going to ask about kind of theinflammatory response to it and
what that looks like in the bodyand how is the body response to
it and what that looks like inthe body and how, how is the
body?
You kind of answered it, butyou know, is the body able to
attack and remove these on theirown?
It doesn't really sound likethey're able to.
Dr. Terri Fox (20:16):
So if you didn't colonize, you'll get better all
the way better.
In phase one you won't needantifungals, but yeah, so
another part of it that'simportant for people out there
to know if they're trying tofind their way through a mold
treatment protocol is the reasonthat there's like two phases
(20:38):
and it's because there's aspecific order so that you don't
make yourself more sick.
So when you add an antifungalin and it kills colonized mold
in the system, when you kill itit releases those mycotoxins.
So if you start somebody on anantifungal, you're just flooding
their system with more of thevery same thing that made them
(21:00):
sick in the first place.
And so, like the body has toreally be trained.
Like when you release thosethat catch the binders catch
them.
Yeah, same with biofilm.
Imagine if I just opened upthat biofilm in the beginning
and just flooded this system.
Yeah, so that's you know justkind of the importance of.
It is like the order and andbasically not doing too much too
(21:20):
fast, not trying to force yourbody to detox more than it can.
Nika Lawrie (21:24):
That definitely makes sense.
Yeah, so talking about thedetox piece, what are some of
the other pieces that you mighthave people work on or do or use
as a supportive tool to supporttheir overall detox process?
So think about the livers andkidney and skin and all that
kind of stuff.
Are there other things that youhave them do alongside the
(21:44):
treatments?
Dr. Terri Fox (21:46):
Yeah, so well, drainage is supporting, you know
, supporting all your organdetox.
But I can actually send it toyou.
I'll send you my biotoxinrelief guide later, awesome.
Nika Lawrie (21:55):
Yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (21:55):
Yeah, so things like detox baths, which are six
cups of Epsom salts and six cupsof baking soda those will pull
mycotoxins and other biotoxinsout of the body.
And then infrared sauna isamazing.
Ionic foot baths are amazing.
They're a little bit harder tofind.
Lymphatic drainage is amazing,but be careful, too much can
(22:19):
tank the system.
Also, you want to start realslow and gentle with that.
I mean, there's so many,there's ivs, so we do a lot of
iv, glutathione,phosphatidylcholine.
That pulls out a ton of thesemycotoxins.
Um, people can even do ivsaline and it'll flush out a
certain, a certain amount.
(22:41):
And, um, yeah, glutathionebinders yeah, what other ones
are you thinking of?
Nika Lawrie (22:48):
I think you covered most of the ones I was thinking
of too.
Yeah, there's more.
Yeah, I mean tons of them, justthe whole staying hydrated
through the whole process aswell.
Yeah, yeah.
So you mentioned how it relatesto the gut earlier.
Can you talk a little bit aboutgut health and how that plays a
(23:10):
role in the recovery?
Or, if it does, I guess, yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (23:15):
So you can theoretically colonize in the GI
tract from an exposure.
You can imagine we couldbreathe it and swallow it down
our esophagus.
We don't usually see mold onstool studies but theoretically
it can colonize in the GI tractand I do see in mold patients
quite a bit of GI dysfunction.
(23:37):
And so you have to get somebodyat least moving daily, having
daily complete bowel movements,because that's how we're binding
and pulling out thesemycotoxins is through the GI
tract and that's a major form ofdetoxification.
And so if they're not havingdaily movements, yeah, we're not
(23:58):
going to get anywhere.
But interestingly I find youknow I have a lot of patients
that you know more IBS-ish, youknow where they alternate
between diarrhea andconstipation and they get really
worried about taking thebinders because they're
constipating and they think it'sgoing to really mess them up.
And oftentimes it regulates thesystem and I can't even explain
(24:20):
why exactly.
But you get all the binders onboard.
You find your magnesium.
I start with magnesium citrate.
There's a ton of other thingswe can use to soften the stools
and have daily completemovements.
And so when they get on fulldoses and then they find their
cocktail of mag citrate orwhatever it is, it helps them
(24:41):
have daily movements.
A lot of times it just it sortof resets their old alternating
diarrhea and constipation justoften go away.
I used to really feel like wehad to get it somewhat regulated
before we start.
And then now over the yearsI've just found like just start
it and increase the mag, justincrease the mag, and it really
(25:02):
does just sort of normalize it.
Nika Lawrie (25:04):
Yeah, Interesting, yeah, it's funny.
I think when you support onepart of the body, the rest of it
really starts to kind of figureout how to heal itself.
You know, and it really is thatfull system right where you
just got to make sure yeah, eachpart's supported.
What do you find is useful?
If there are things that helppeople?
(25:25):
So they've been exposed,they've come to you, they've
gotten the support, they've, youknow, potentially fixed the
issue or at least gotten it to aspot where they're feeling much
better, what are things thatthey can do to help continue to
feel better long term afterwards?
Do you see that?
You know, ideally they're notin the same environment where
(25:46):
they were exposed, but do yousee this come back again?
Are there things that they haveto do to keep their body
healthy long-term?
Dr. Terri Fox (25:54):
Yeah, so there's a good at least four categories
here.
So one is you know I do somemitochondrial resuscitation or
repetition afterwards, so yourbody will use up all your
glutathione and your otherantioxidants trying to get these
mycotoxins out, and so they endup really depleted.
(26:16):
Binders can bind some nutrients, so mold is depleting, the
treatment is depleting, and soyou can end up with quite a few
of the things you need for goodmitochondrial function are
really low, and so so we do alot of I do a lot of repletion,
and then so I treat every moldpatient for yeast.
(26:37):
What I have found over theyears is that where there's mold
, there's yeast, and moldcreates all the right conditions
for yeast to flourish, and weknow now that water damaged
buildings often have yeast inthem as well, not just mold, you
know, and you've probably heardof have yeast in them as well,
not just mold.
You know and you've probablyheard of, there's endotoxins and
gram negative bacteria and allthat stuff too.
But I have found that yeast isoften a huge part of a mold case
(27:03):
.
Sometimes it's a small part,but a lot of times it's a big
part.
So I will always work on yeast.
I'll start somewhere during andI'll make sure that that is
complete by the time we're done.
And then there's a lot ofnervous system resetting that we
have to do, differentcategories, one being limbic
(27:28):
retraining, one being, you know,working on vagal toning, the
polyvagal theory.
You know you could have a wholeother section on, just, you know
, breath work and meditation,and you know grounding and you
know all those things.
But what happens is, once youhave been really sick from mold
(27:50):
and then you finally get better,your nervous system is
terrified.
It's going to happen again, andso you might walk into a movie
theater and smell mold and getsome, you know, bizarre symptom
back.
So like I have a patient whowhen he walks into a moldy
building he feels like there'swater running down the backs of
(28:11):
his legs.
Nika Lawrie (28:11):
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Terri Fox (28:12):
Like the bizarre neurological symptoms.
But so you get this symptom andthen you know your limbic
system fires and your adrenalsfire and you panic.
You're, unconsciously, you know, you panic and what that does
is that increases theinflammatory response that the
(28:33):
mold is doing in your body.
So it's not to say it's in yourhead, but your head's making it
worse, right, yeah, and so soat some point you know that has
to get sort of dealt with andworked on.
And and then also, because moldis not recognized by the
Western medical community, mypatients often have a lot of
(28:55):
medical trauma, you know, cominginto this because they've seen
20 to 40 specialists, they'vegone to the Mayo Clinic, they've
been told over and over there'snothing wrong with you.
They've been told they're crazy.
You know they've been offeredan antidepressant and so then
they have, you know, not onlythe trauma of being chronically
ill and not being able to takecare of your kids or work or,
(29:18):
you know, do the things that youlove, but then you've got this
trauma from the medicalcommunity.
And so you know a lot of thatjust has to really get worked on
, and that you know that can bea long process, yeah, but it's
pretty important because most ofus, you know it, was traumatic.
When we had the mold exposureyou know it was, our lives fell
(29:41):
apart and so of course there'sfear of it happening again, and
it does happen again.
I mean, mold is everywhere, youknow, and we live in these
buildings made of mold food.
They're made of cellulose, thefood that mold loves, and that's
kind of the fourth categorythat we work on.
So part of tolerance is, youknow, lowering that total body
(30:18):
burden in your bucket so thatyou have bandwidth to be able to
tolerate the world and otherexposures that don't you know.
Then tip your bucket again soyou have a little bit more
resiliency.
Yeah, and I actually forget whatI was starting to tell you.
I don't remember Lymphicretraining, nervous system
(30:44):
retraining.
Oh yeah, I try to get mypatients to just trust that if
your body has learned how to dothis before, it's going to be
this much quicker the next timeyou need to do it.
It already does and you knowwhat to do.
You're not going to sit theregetting silently poisoned.
You know, without your knowing,you're going to realize the
(31:06):
symptoms.
You're going to be, you know,hypervigilant at first, but just
trust that your body, you knowwhat to do.
Now, your body knows what to doand you can get better, just
like you did before, and it'llnever take that long again and
you'll never get as sick as youwere, because you know too much.
Nika Lawrie (31:24):
Yeah, I was thinking about you talking about
the medical trauma piece too.
Is that part of the resiliencynow is that they know they
aren't crazy, they know thatthey can get help, that there
are people out there and there'sinformation out there that will
help them heal too.
I hear basically every podcastperson I've interviewed over the
last four or five years.
(31:45):
Their story starts out well.
I went to see all these doctorsand they told me I was fine,
but obviously I was sick and soI had to go figure it out myself
.
I mean, I would say 80 to 90%of the people I've interviewed
have said that Most of myclients have come to me asking
for support because they aren'table to figure it out in the
(32:06):
traditional world like kind ofthe healthcare world, and so
really starting to address it inmore holistic manners and to be
just heard, I think is such animportant part of that.
Dr. Terri Fox (32:17):
Oh my gosh it is.
It's so important Like I.
I patients cry in here all thetime because they're just like
nobody's ever actually listenedor believed me.
I'm hoping it will change.
There's a lot more awarenessaround mold generally.
(32:38):
I'm hoping things will change.
I'm on the medical advisorypanel for the Change the Air
Foundation.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that.
(33:03):
I don't know a lot about, but Ido know about them and hearth
that side of thing of things.
But they're also really tryingto pass legislation so that
renters have rights and you knowthat this is considered.
You know something that you canbring into the legal system
when you've been really sick andthat there's laws to protect
(33:24):
you.
Nika Lawrie (33:25):
Yeah, so important, so important.
Well, I want to just commendyou for, you know, one, you know
kind of being a leader in thisarea and really being able to
help and support your patientsand bringing education and
awareness to the issue, but alsojust for being someone that
listens to them and being therefor them.
(33:45):
So thank you for the workyou're doing.
I truly appreciate it for thewhole community.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, definitely so.
I have two more questions foryou, but before I get to those
questions, what is somethingthat you would like to share
with people struggling with amold illness, like just a
message of hope or guidance, orhowever you want to share that?
Dr. Terri Fox (34:08):
Yeah, or however, you want to share that, yeah.
So what I want people to knowis that it is really it is not a
death sentence.
It is a very treatablediagnosis.
People do really well, there'sa great clinical turnaround and
you can get better and you knowyou will get better if you find
the right framework or the youknow the right way to do it and
(34:33):
so so, yeah, I would just say,you know, hang in there and you
know, find the right road foryou.
And I mean, I don't have anymold patients that don't get
better.
Nika Lawrie (34:42):
They do great.
Dr. Terri Fox (34:44):
That's awesome, yeah, and I I created a course
based on my mold eradicationprotocol in the phase one and
phase two that people can dothemselves, and it's pretty
handheld and spoon-fed andpretty gentle.
It's designed to try to keeppeople from making themselves
more sick by going too fast.
Nika Lawrie (35:05):
So important.
That was going to be one of mysecond questions.
Oh yeah, when can the audiencefind you or connect with you and
how can they learn more fromyou?
So obviously of your course?
What is the name of your courseand where can they find that?
Dr. Terri Fox (35:17):
um dr fox's uh mold.
So many different names of thedifferent parts.
Mold treatment master class,perfect, I'll link that in the
show notes yeah, great, and it'sdr fox medical detectivecom.
Nika Lawrie (35:30):
I loved that name.
I saw that.
Yeah, oh fun.
Dr. Terri Fox (35:33):
Oh good, so that's where you can find.
I did a bunch of webinars onmold toxicity, so there's, you
can watch a webinar replay andyou can learn about the course.
Yeah, and so.
So that's where you would gofor that.
And then there's also a freemold prevention guide If you
sign up for the newsletterthat's available, and then I'll
(35:54):
also give you a coupon code foryour Perfect.
Yeah, awesome.
Nika Lawrie (36:01):
I'll put everything in the show notes.
Make it as easy as possible.
Dr. Terri Fox (36:04):
Yeah, I think.
I think your coupon code isinspired 100.
Nika Lawrie (36:08):
Awesome, okay, let me write that down, so I got it.
Dr. Terri Fox (36:11):
Yeah, and then my clinic is boulderholisticcom.
Nika Lawrie (36:14):
Yeah, I got that too.
So my last question for you, drFox.
It's something I ask all theguests, but what is something
that has inspired you?
Either that's happened or thatyou've learned throughout your
life that you would like toshare with the audience.
Dr. Terri Fox (36:35):
Oh, that's such a sweet question.
I mean, I feel pretty stronglyaround.
Just do something that you lovethat makes a contribution in
the world, that that's kind ofwhere our happiness comes from.
Yeah, you know we spend a lotof time doing whatever our work
is, and if you love what you do,then you're going to end up
being pretty happy, absolutely.
Nika Lawrie (36:54):
I love it too.
Yeah, I think just you know,spending your time doing what
you love inspires other peopleto spend time doing what they
love.
So yeah.
Well, dr Fox, thank you so muchfor your time, for your
information, for your educationon this topic.
It's been so, so helpful, so Ireally appreciate it, thank you.
Dr. Terri Fox (37:13):
Oh, thank you for having me and thank you for the
work that you do.
Nika Lawrie (37:16):
Oh, thank you.
Welcome to the Inspired with Nika Lawrie
podcast.
Dr Terry Fox, welcome to theshow.
I'm so happy to have you heretoday.
Dr. Terri Fox (00:21):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Nika Lawrie (00:23):
Yeah, so we were talking just a little bit before
we started recording, becausewe're going to talk about mold
toxicity today and, like I saidto you earlier, I'm really
excited to learn from youbecause I know a lot about
toxins, or toxics really, andendocrine disruptors and all the
different chemicals that areimpacting us, but molds play
(00:44):
such a huge role and it's kindof in that toxicity world and so
I'm really excited to learnfrom you about that today.
Dr. Terri Fox (00:52):
I'm excited.
Nika Lawrie (00:53):
Yeah, so you are a functional medicine doctor based
in Boulder, Colorado.
Can you tell me a little bitabout your backstory?
How did you get into functionalmedicine and what really
inspired you to head down thatroute?
Dr. Terri Fox (01:06):
Yeah.
So I really sort of wanted tobe a naturopath and was always,
you know, very I alwaysgravitated towards the natural
world and the natural approachand I have a background in
medicinal herbs, westernmedicinal herbs, awesome and I
(01:36):
sort of just figured if I couldget through medical school and
residency, then I couldintegrate, you know, integrative
holistic medicine and learnfunctional medicine, and that if
I went to, you know,naturopathic school or something
else, it's not the reverse, isnot true?
And so I sort of had thatdesire from the outset.
Yeah, and so then after myresidency, I did a board
certification in integrativeholistic medicine and then I
(01:56):
studied a lot of functionalmedicine.
I did all their modules,awesome and then I did
functional medicine forschedules and then I did
functional medicine for, I don'tknow 20 years, and maybe 10
years in or something, it becameapparent that a lot of the most
sick people that don't reallyrespond to the normal functional
(02:17):
medicine approaches all had alot of biotoxin illness, which
is like mold toxicity, lymedisease, lyme co-infections, and
so then I sort of pivoted intolearning a lot about that and
then it's one of those things assoon as you start learning a
little bit, they just walk inyour door.
(02:41):
So somehow now people just walkin and they go.
I am mold, help me.
Nika Lawrie (02:45):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I think it's becausethere's such a need for it and
so few people that are reallyone just an expert in it but
also just really talking aboutthe issue.
You know, building awarenessit's.
So few people realize howdevastating mold exposure can be
and then kind of the prevalenceof Lyme disease in the last few
(03:07):
years too, seems like it'sreally increased quite a bit as
well.
Dr. Terri Fox (03:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Nika Lawrie (03:14):
Yeah, Can you?
So let's just start from thebasics.
Can you just talk about what ismold toxicity and how does that
really impact?
Or how can that lead tocreating chronic conditions in
people?
Dr. Terri Fox (03:28):
Yeah, so mold, and when I'm speaking about mold
I'm speaking aboutwater-damaged building molds,
not like outdoor molds in thetrees, but so some of the molds
that can grow in water damagedbuildings release mycotoxins.
So mycotoxins are the toxinsthat mold releases that is
(03:52):
pathogenic or disease causing tohumans.
And so what can happen is youknow you get, you're in a house
and maybe you don't know thatthere's mold, and you know it's
a, it's a humid day, andeventually you breathe, you know
, a spore into your sinuses oryou start breathing mycotoxins.
And then it turns out that andI think this number is changing
(04:16):
for a variety of reasons wecould get into but it used to be
that only 25% of the populationis sensitive to mold.
So it can be pretty confusingin a family when only one person
or two people out of four issick.
And then how could it possiblybe the house?
So you know it can make it alittle tricky to figure out.
(04:37):
But so what happens is so a lotof these mycotoxins are
neurotoxins, which means theyattack our nervous system, so
our central nervous system, ourperipheral nerves, and what can
happen over time is that yourbucket will fill up with these
(04:57):
mycotoxins, and if it fills allthe way up to the top and
overflows.
Then the system crashes.
And so I talk a lot about withmy patients total body burden
and so you know sometimes maybeyou could have tolerated a
certain amount of mold in thehouse.
But then you know, so you'reborn and let's say you have a
(05:19):
bucket full of toxins andinfections and things and you
get some exposure to plasticsand pesticides and glyphosate
and then maybe you have somebiotoxin from Lyme or Lyme
co-infections and then maybe yougot a couple COVIDs with a lot
of inflammation and then you endup in a moldy place and your
bucket overflows and the systemcrashes.
Nika Lawrie (05:42):
That's such a great way to.
It's such a good metaphor tokind of explain the overall, you
know, environmental toxins thatwe're exposed to, and yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (05:51):
Yeah, when I find by the time people have come to
me their system has crashed andso you can, you know sort of
work on any of those parts ofthe bucket you know heavy metals
, environmental exposures I findmold to be really, really
treatable and a really greatdiagnosis because people do so
well and you feel better thewhole way.
(06:13):
There's not like a gettingworse before you get better,
like with Lyme or some otherthings.
The hard part of mold is ifyou're still in a moldy building
and you have to either move orsell it or remediate it, then
it's hard but actually treatingit and the clinical turnaround
is amazing.
So when I have somebody with asystem crash and a full bucket
(06:36):
and if there's mold, I almostalways just start there because
a lot of times that's enough tolower the total body burden so
that you're not so symptomaticand you have a little more
resiliency to the world.
Nika Lawrie (06:48):
What are some of the symptoms that you see like
when people come into youroffice?
What are the most common ones?
How do we start to identifythat?
It may be a more issue, yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (06:56):
So I'll sort of tell you all of them and then
I'll tell you some of the mostcommon.
So you can kind of you begin tosee patterns?
yeah, yeah.
So fatigue, brain fog,cognitive dysfunctions of all
kinds, word recall, memory loss,difficulty focus, concentration
, and then a lot of headachesand migraines, a lot of insomnia
(07:21):
and anxiety, depression in some, and then a lot of unusual
neurological symptoms andpresentations that don't fit
into any neurological diagnosis.
So like you can haveasymmetrical numbness, tingling,
weakness, burning musclefasciculations, weakness,
(07:44):
burning muscle fasciculations,like involuntary muscle
movements.
You can get dizzy, ataxic,which means your balance is off
ice, pick sensations, burningsensations, a lot of weird
neurological stuff.
And then there's a rapid weightgain or weight loss.
That's sort of an unexplainableweight gain or weight loss.
(08:04):
And's sort of an unexplainableweight gain or weight loss and
that's always a tip off for me.
And then in kids it presents alot more neuropsych.
So headaches and tummy achesare common fatigue and some
brain fog, but it's also a lotmore like OCD and tics and
sensory integration, anxiety,depression and you can get PANS
(08:26):
from mold.
Are you familiar with?
I'm not.
No, what is PANS?
Yeah, pediatric Acute OnsetNeuropsychiatric Syndrome.
Nika Lawrie (08:35):
Oh, okay, I have heard of that before, but yeah.
You probably know what PANSdoes, yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (08:40):
Yeah, yeah, so it can cause PANS in kids and
those are, you know, that's themajority of you know there's
some visual changes.
But when in a history, whensomebody has, you know, fatigue,
brain fog, maybe either anxietyor insomnia, and then they also
have some neurological thingsand then also some weight gain
(09:03):
or weight loss, you know, andthen I, the way I work with
patients is, I'll go through thetimeline, so like, well, where
were you living when you firstgot sick and then, and then, for
how long, where were you here?
And then sometimes you can justtell like, oh well, it started
when I was, you know, threemonths after I moved into this
(09:23):
place in Portland, and you know,and then they've got all the
symptoms and said, wow, it'sworth it to do the test.
Nika Lawrie (09:30):
Yeah, yeah, do you find I know so.
I live in New Mexico where it'spretty arid and dry.
There's not a whole lot ofmoisture here, so we don't tend
to see a lot of mold, thoughthere is.
You know, we do have to becareful with our showers,
bathrooms, those kind of places.
Do you find that you seeclients more from?
You know the Midwest, whereit's kind of wetter, or back
(09:52):
east?
What do you start to see?
Dr. Terri Fox (09:55):
I see it all over yeah.
So, regardless of the climate,Definitely, in a very humid
climate it is a lot harder toget to find yourself a clean
space, but, like here at Boulder, it's also really dry.
But we had in 2013, we had thishuge flood and because it's so
(10:19):
dry like we don't, nobody hereknows what to do when you have
water damage.
So like people just put a fanon the wet carpet and the wet
drywall and just left it andthen two years later they're all
sickening in my office, um, andso you know, it's pretty hard
to find a not moldy space wherein boulder and denver is kind of
the same and they didn't havethe flood it's not quite as bad,
(10:41):
um, but yeah, I mean, I thinkit's a little trickier in a
really humid climate, but we wekind of see it all over I
remember that flood my my sisterlives in boulder.
Nika Lawrie (10:50):
She's been up there for years now and I remember
that flood and how crazy it wasand her dealing with it and oh
my gosh, and I feel so horriblefor the all of florida and north
carolina I know I just keepgetting flooded and flooded
again.
I feel so worried for all thosepeople yeah, it's, it's so scary
, I know, and how much you know.
(11:11):
The weather's changing, climatechange and all these things too
.
So but anyways, back to themold toxicity.
How so, once you have thesymptoms, you go see a physician
?
How are you guys testing for it?
What are the methods and how doyou figure out if people are
actually having mold issues?
Dr. Terri Fox (11:27):
Yeah.
So I recommend urinarymycotoxin testing, and so what
that means is you know, you takea urine sample and you're
looking for those toxins thatmold releases.
And there's two that I like touse.
My favorite is Real-Time Labs,mostly because it's been around
(11:49):
the longest and I trust it and Ikind of know the people over
there.
It's very specific, meaning youdon't get a lot of false
positives or false positivesfrom foods as opposed to water,
damaged buildings, but it's notas sensitive, so you'll miss a
(12:11):
decent amount of people.
So I do a really big provocationmeaning so that the people that
get sick from mold are the onesthat can't detox it, they can't
metabolize it and get it out inthe urine, the stool and the
sweat, and so you know, if youjust do a spot urine on them,
you might not catch it, becauseif they were metabolizing it
(12:31):
they might probably not end upin my office.
And so I do an IV ofphosphatidylcholine and
glutathione and then we collectthe urine after and then I also,
like Vibrant, does a mycotoxintest.
That I think is pretty legit.
I like theirs too.
Awesome.
But those are what.
Nika Lawrie (12:50):
I recommend Okay, and so most people are going to
go into an office to see aphysician.
It's not something that theycan likely test at home just to
see if they have that exposure.
Dr. Terri Fox (13:00):
They can, they can.
So the Vibrant does not need tobe provoked and you can just do
that.
One does not need to beprovoked and you can just do
that one.
And if you don't have access toyou know me or someone like me,
would I be like that?
Then you do as much liposomalglutathione for like five days
(13:21):
before and then you try to do aninfrared sauna or at the very
least like a detox bath beforethe real-time labs.
One to provoke it.
Yeah, okay, that makes sense,definitely.
Nika Lawrie (13:31):
So I want to ask when we so let's just come up
with you know a fake client orpatient, right?
So we know they have thesymptoms, they come in, they get
the test, they test positivefor having these molds, the
exposure.
So what does it look like?
I want to kind of do acomparison of what it would look
(13:54):
like to do a more conventionaltreatment versus how you would
treat them with more of aholistic or functional medicine
approach.
Can you break out what the twodifferences and what they might
look like, if there is adifference at all?
Dr. Terri Fox (14:06):
So it's a fun question.
So I don't think there is aconventional approach to mold.
Okay, well then that's theanswer.
Yeah, I don't think allopathicmedicine believes in mold yet.
Nika Lawrie (14:17):
Yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (14:19):
Maybe, maybe it was a trick question, right.
Right, I think you know the wayI treat it might be a little
bit more functionally andholistically oriented, but I
think anybody treating it is inthat world.
Nika Lawrie (14:30):
Yeah, Okay, makes sense.
So what does that look like atreatment for you?
How do you start supportingthese individuals?
Dr. Terri Fox (14:38):
Yeah.
So you know, I tend to seepretty chronically ill, complex
patients, and so the beginning,you know, when we first get the
mycotoxin test back.
So there's different bindersthat bind different strains of
mycotoxins and so you have toknow which ones you have in
(15:02):
order to know which binders totake.
So binders are things likeactivated charcoal that night
clay, clostyramine, you knowsome other things, and that's
sort of one of the pitfalls ofthe things that people they try
to treat it themselves and theyjust go on one binder and it
might be the wrong binder.
That's, yeah, that was one ofthe questions I was going to ask
(15:23):
.
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of acommon one.
So there's specific binders forspecific strains of mycotoxins
and so I split my treatment intotwo phases.
So phase one is basicallyteaching the body how to pull
out these mycotoxins, and we dothat through, you know,
gradually increasing binders anddoing all the right binders we
(15:45):
need for your unique mycotoxinload.
We do liposomal glutathione,because that's critical in order
to detox and metabolize thesemycotoxins, get them out in the
urine, the stool and the sweat.
And then, you know, I do a lotof organ detox support, so
kidney, liver, lymph drainage,so you can just begin using your
own detoxification channels tobegin draining that bucket down
(16:09):
a little bit.
And then you know there's acouple other parts to that, to
phase one.
And then I also give them abiotoxin relief handout that
gives you all the things thathelp pull out mycotoxins, things
like infrared sauna and ionicfoot baths and you know stuff
like that.
And so they.
You know however long it takesin phase one for them to get up
(16:33):
to full doses of binders andhaving daily movements because
they're constipating.
And once they've done that forfour weeks then the body's
usually ready for phase two,usually ready for phase two.
But I have people go up realgradually on their binders,
making sure they feel nothing orbetter before increasing doses.
(16:55):
So in mold you really don'twant to suffer in your protocol
because it just doesn't getthere any faster.
You're mobilizing things todifferent parts of the body,
certain diseases that we treat.
There's a little bit ofdiscomfort and pain you have to
get through.
But if you're doing the moldprotocol right you should always
(17:15):
feel better and nothing.
And so, yeah, that's phase oneis sort of training the body how
to pull out these things andbeginning to lower that total
body burden.
Nika Lawrie (17:27):
Yeah, so you said there was a second phase.
What is that phase?
Dr. Terri Fox (17:30):
Yeah.
So phase two is antifungals andbiofilm.
So the theory is that if thisis from a previous exposure,
these mycotoxins we're findingin the urine, that you know.
Let's say you first got sicksomewhere you lived a few years
ago.
You don't live there anymore.
(17:50):
What can happen is you cancolonize in the upper
respiratory tract or the GItract and that just means that
you sort of brought it with you.
It's sort of in you.
And the example I always use isyou know, imagine you're
sleeping in a house at mold andit's a humid day and you know,
(18:11):
eventually the spores aresporulating in the air and the
breathing air and you mightbreathe one up into your.
The sinuses are the most commonplace of colonization and they
can stick and then they canreplicate and have babies and
build communities and families.
And then they aggregatetogether and they form a colony
and then they create thisglycoprotein matrix around them
(18:33):
that's called biofilm and thatprotects them from our immune
system.
So like we can't really, ourimmune cells can't really see
past the biofilm and ourantifungal agents can't get us
biofilm either.
So phase two so you can imagine, in phase one we're binding all
these toxins and we're loweringthat total body burden.
(18:55):
But if there's mold actuallyliving in us, it's going to
continue to release moremycotoxins.
So you might be able to kind ofkeep your boat afloat by
bucketing out the water, butyou're going to have to do that
forever, unless we actually getat the source yeah.
Yeah, and so the source is, youknow getting doing antifungals
(19:18):
and you know do a lot of liversupport with that, and then at
the very end we open up biofilmand we open up biofilm and so
yeah, so it's.
I feel like it's so.
It's a kind of a complicatedprotocol, like binders have to
be done two hours away, blah,blah, blah.
But like I said, I mean peoplethey do really well.
(19:41):
Like two weeks on the rightbinders, you get a turnaround if
they're no longer being exposed, and then once you start them
on antifungals, then you reallyget a big clinical turnaround
usually, and so, yeah, that'slovely, that's huge yeah.
Nika Lawrie (19:57):
I'm glad you kind of covered that, because I was
going to ask about kind of theinflammatory response to it and
what that looks like in the bodyand how is the body response to
it and what that looks like inthe body and how, how is the
body?
You kind of answered it, butyou know, is the body able to
attack and remove these on theirown?
It doesn't really sound likethey're able to.
Dr. Terri Fox (20:16):
So if you didn't colonize, you'll get better all
the way better.
In phase one you won't needantifungals, but yeah, so
another part of it that'simportant for people out there
to know if they're trying tofind their way through a mold
treatment protocol is the reasonthat there's like two phases
(20:38):
and it's because there's aspecific order so that you don't
make yourself more sick.
So when you add an antifungalin and it kills colonized mold
in the system, when you kill itit releases those mycotoxins.
So if you start somebody on anantifungal, you're just flooding
their system with more of thevery same thing that made them
(21:00):
sick in the first place.
And so, like the body has toreally be trained.
Like when you release thosethat catch the binders catch
them.
Yeah, same with biofilm.
Imagine if I just opened upthat biofilm in the beginning
and just flooded this system.
Yeah, so that's you know justkind of the importance of.
It is like the order and andbasically not doing too much too
(21:20):
fast, not trying to force yourbody to detox more than it can.
Nika Lawrie (21:24):
That definitely makes sense.
Yeah, so talking about thedetox piece, what are some of
the other pieces that you mighthave people work on or do or use
as a supportive tool to supporttheir overall detox process?
So think about the livers andkidney and skin and all that
kind of stuff.
Are there other things that youhave them do alongside the
(21:44):
treatments?
Dr. Terri Fox (21:46):
Yeah, so well, drainage is supporting, you know
, supporting all your organdetox.
But I can actually send it toyou.
I'll send you my biotoxinrelief guide later, awesome.
Nika Lawrie (21:55):
Yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (21:55):
Yeah, so things like detox baths, which are six
cups of Epsom salts and six cupsof baking soda those will pull
mycotoxins and other biotoxinsout of the body.
And then infrared sauna isamazing.
Ionic foot baths are amazing.
They're a little bit harder tofind.
Lymphatic drainage is amazing,but be careful, too much can
(22:19):
tank the system.
Also, you want to start realslow and gentle with that.
I mean, there's so many,there's ivs, so we do a lot of
iv, glutathione,phosphatidylcholine.
That pulls out a ton of thesemycotoxins.
Um, people can even do ivsaline and it'll flush out a
certain, a certain amount.
(22:41):
And, um, yeah, glutathionebinders yeah, what other ones
are you thinking of?
Nika Lawrie (22:48):
I think you covered most of the ones I was thinking
of too.
Yeah, there's more.
Yeah, I mean tons of them, justthe whole staying hydrated
through the whole process aswell.
Yeah, yeah.
So you mentioned how it relatesto the gut earlier.
Can you talk a little bit aboutgut health and how that plays a
(23:10):
role in the recovery?
Or, if it does, I guess, yeah.
Dr. Terri Fox (23:15):
So you can theoretically colonize in the GI
tract from an exposure.
You can imagine we couldbreathe it and swallow it down
our esophagus.
We don't usually see mold onstool studies but theoretically
it can colonize in the GI tractand I do see in mold patients
quite a bit of GI dysfunction.
(23:37):
And so you have to get somebodyat least moving daily, having
daily complete bowel movements,because that's how we're binding
and pulling out thesemycotoxins is through the GI
tract and that's a major form ofdetoxification.
And so if they're not havingdaily movements, yeah, we're not
(23:58):
going to get anywhere.
But interestingly I find youknow I have a lot of patients
that you know more IBS-ish, youknow where they alternate
between diarrhea andconstipation and they get really
worried about taking thebinders because they're
constipating and they think it'sgoing to really mess them up.
And oftentimes it regulates thesystem and I can't even explain
(24:20):
why exactly.
But you get all the binders onboard.
You find your magnesium.
I start with magnesium citrate.
There's a ton of other thingswe can use to soften the stools
and have daily completemovements.
And so when they get on fulldoses and then they find their
cocktail of mag citrate orwhatever it is, it helps them
(24:41):
have daily movements.
A lot of times it just it sortof resets their old alternating
diarrhea and constipation justoften go away.
I used to really feel like wehad to get it somewhat regulated
before we start.
And then now over the yearsI've just found like just start
it and increase the mag, justincrease the mag, and it really
(25:02):
does just sort of normalize it.
Nika Lawrie (25:04):
Yeah, Interesting, yeah, it's funny.
I think when you support onepart of the body, the rest of it
really starts to kind of figureout how to heal itself.
You know, and it really is thatfull system right where you
just got to make sure yeah, eachpart's supported.
What do you find is useful?
If there are things that helppeople?
(25:25):
So they've been exposed,they've come to you, they've
gotten the support, they've, youknow, potentially fixed the
issue or at least gotten it to aspot where they're feeling much
better, what are things thatthey can do to help continue to
feel better long term afterwards?
Do you see that?
You know, ideally they're notin the same environment where
(25:46):
they were exposed, but do yousee this come back again?
Are there things that they haveto do to keep their body
healthy long-term?
Dr. Terri Fox (25:54):
Yeah, so there's a good at least four categories
here.
So one is you know I do somemitochondrial resuscitation or
repetition afterwards, so yourbody will use up all your
glutathione and your otherantioxidants trying to get these
mycotoxins out, and so they endup really depleted.
(26:16):
Binders can bind some nutrients, so mold is depleting, the
treatment is depleting, and soyou can end up with quite a few
of the things you need for goodmitochondrial function are
really low, and so so we do alot of I do a lot of repletion,
and then so I treat every moldpatient for yeast.
(26:37):
What I have found over theyears is that where there's mold
, there's yeast, and moldcreates all the right conditions
for yeast to flourish, and weknow now that water damaged
buildings often have yeast inthem as well, not just mold, you
know, and you've probably heardof have yeast in them as well,
not just mold.
You know and you've probablyheard of, there's endotoxins and
gram negative bacteria and allthat stuff too.
But I have found that yeast isoften a huge part of a mold case
(27:03):
.
Sometimes it's a small part,but a lot of times it's a big
part.
So I will always work on yeast.
I'll start somewhere during andI'll make sure that that is
complete by the time we're done.
And then there's a lot ofnervous system resetting that we
have to do, differentcategories, one being limbic
(27:28):
retraining, one being, you know,working on vagal toning, the
polyvagal theory.
You know you could have a wholeother section on, just, you know
, breath work and meditation,and you know grounding and you
know all those things.
But what happens is, once youhave been really sick from mold
(27:50):
and then you finally get better,your nervous system is
terrified.
It's going to happen again, andso you might walk into a movie
theater and smell mold and getsome, you know, bizarre symptom
back.
So like I have a patient whowhen he walks into a moldy
building he feels like there'swater running down the backs of
(28:11):
his legs.
Nika Lawrie (28:11):
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Terri Fox (28:12):
Like the bizarre neurological symptoms.
But so you get this symptom andthen you know your limbic
system fires and your adrenalsfire and you panic.
You're, unconsciously, you know, you panic and what that does
is that increases theinflammatory response that the
(28:33):
mold is doing in your body.
So it's not to say it's in yourhead, but your head's making it
worse, right, yeah, and so soat some point you know that has
to get sort of dealt with andworked on.
And and then also, because moldis not recognized by the
Western medical community, mypatients often have a lot of
(28:55):
medical trauma, you know, cominginto this because they've seen
20 to 40 specialists, they'vegone to the Mayo Clinic, they've
been told over and over there'snothing wrong with you.
They've been told they're crazy.
You know they've been offeredan antidepressant and so then
they have, you know, not onlythe trauma of being chronically
ill and not being able to takecare of your kids or work or,
(29:18):
you know, do the things that youlove, but then you've got this
trauma from the medicalcommunity.
And so you know a lot of thatjust has to really get worked on
, and that you know that can bea long process, yeah, but it's
pretty important because most ofus, you know it, was traumatic.
When we had the mold exposureyou know it was, our lives fell
(29:41):
apart and so of course there'sfear of it happening again, and
it does happen again.
I mean, mold is everywhere, youknow, and we live in these
buildings made of mold food.
They're made of cellulose, thefood that mold loves, and that's
kind of the fourth categorythat we work on.
So part of tolerance is, youknow, lowering that total body
(30:18):
burden in your bucket so thatyou have bandwidth to be able to
tolerate the world and otherexposures that don't you know.
Then tip your bucket again soyou have a little bit more
resiliency.
Yeah, and I actually forget whatI was starting to tell you.
I don't remember Lymphicretraining, nervous system
(30:44):
retraining.
Oh yeah, I try to get mypatients to just trust that if
your body has learned how to dothis before, it's going to be
this much quicker the next timeyou need to do it.
It already does and you knowwhat to do.
You're not going to sit theregetting silently poisoned.
You know, without your knowing,you're going to realize the
(31:06):
symptoms.
You're going to be, you know,hypervigilant at first, but just
trust that your body, you knowwhat to do.
Now, your body knows what to doand you can get better, just
like you did before, and it'llnever take that long again and
you'll never get as sick as youwere, because you know too much.
Nika Lawrie (31:24):
Yeah, I was thinking about you talking about
the medical trauma piece too.
Is that part of the resiliencynow is that they know they
aren't crazy, they know thatthey can get help, that there
are people out there and there'sinformation out there that will
help them heal too.
I hear basically every podcastperson I've interviewed over the
last four or five years.
(31:45):
Their story starts out well.
I went to see all these doctorsand they told me I was fine,
but obviously I was sick and soI had to go figure it out myself
.
I mean, I would say 80 to 90%of the people I've interviewed
have said that Most of myclients have come to me asking
for support because they aren'table to figure it out in the
(32:06):
traditional world like kind ofthe healthcare world, and so
really starting to address it inmore holistic manners and to be
just heard, I think is such animportant part of that.
Dr. Terri Fox (32:17):
Oh my gosh it is.
It's so important Like I.
I patients cry in here all thetime because they're just like
nobody's ever actually listenedor believed me.
I'm hoping it will change.
There's a lot more awarenessaround mold generally.
(32:38):
I'm hoping things will change.
I'm on the medical advisorypanel for the Change the Air
Foundation.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that.
(33:03):
I don't know a lot about, but Ido know about them and hearth
that side of thing of things.
But they're also really tryingto pass legislation so that
renters have rights and you knowthat this is considered.
You know something that you canbring into the legal system
when you've been really sick andthat there's laws to protect
(33:24):
you.
Nika Lawrie (33:25):
Yeah, so important, so important.
Well, I want to just commendyou for, you know, one, you know
kind of being a leader in thisarea and really being able to
help and support your patientsand bringing education and
awareness to the issue, but alsojust for being someone that
listens to them and being therefor them.
(33:45):
So thank you for the workyou're doing.
I truly appreciate it for thewhole community.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, definitely so.
I have two more questions foryou, but before I get to those
questions, what is somethingthat you would like to share
with people struggling with amold illness, like just a
message of hope or guidance, orhowever you want to share that?
Dr. Terri Fox (34:08):
Yeah, or however, you want to share that, yeah.
So what I want people to knowis that it is really it is not a
death sentence.
It is a very treatablediagnosis.
People do really well, there'sa great clinical turnaround and
you can get better and you knowyou will get better if you find
the right framework or the youknow the right way to do it and
(34:33):
so so, yeah, I would just say,you know, hang in there and you
know, find the right road foryou.
And I mean, I don't have anymold patients that don't get
better.
Nika Lawrie (34:42):
They do great.
Dr. Terri Fox (34:44):
That's awesome, yeah, and I I created a course
based on my mold eradicationprotocol in the phase one and
phase two that people can dothemselves, and it's pretty
handheld and spoon-fed andpretty gentle.
It's designed to try to keeppeople from making themselves
more sick by going too fast.
Nika Lawrie (35:05):
So important.
That was going to be one of mysecond questions.
Oh yeah, when can the audiencefind you or connect with you and
how can they learn more fromyou?
So obviously of your course?
What is the name of your courseand where can they find that?
Dr. Terri Fox (35:17):
um dr fox's uh mold.
So many different names of thedifferent parts.
Mold treatment master class,perfect, I'll link that in the
show notes yeah, great, and it'sdr fox medical detectivecom.
Nika Lawrie (35:30):
I loved that name.
I saw that.
Yeah, oh fun.
Dr. Terri Fox (35:33):
Oh good, so that's where you can find.
I did a bunch of webinars onmold toxicity, so there's, you
can watch a webinar replay andyou can learn about the course.
Yeah, and so.
So that's where you would gofor that.
And then there's also a freemold prevention guide If you
sign up for the newsletterthat's available, and then I'll
(35:54):
also give you a coupon code foryour Perfect.
Yeah, awesome.
Nika Lawrie (36:01):
I'll put everything in the show notes.
Make it as easy as possible.
Dr. Terri Fox (36:04):
Yeah, I think.
I think your coupon code isinspired 100.
Nika Lawrie (36:08):
Awesome, okay, let me write that down, so I got it.
Dr. Terri Fox (36:11):
Yeah, and then my clinic is boulderholisticcom.
Nika Lawrie (36:14):
Yeah, I got that too.
So my last question for you, drFox.
It's something I ask all theguests, but what is something
that has inspired you?
Either that's happened or thatyou've learned throughout your
life that you would like toshare with the audience.
Dr. Terri Fox (36:35):
Oh, that's such a sweet question.
I mean, I feel pretty stronglyaround.
Just do something that you lovethat makes a contribution in
the world, that that's kind ofwhere our happiness comes from.
Yeah, you know we spend a lotof time doing whatever our work
is, and if you love what you do,then you're going to end up
being pretty happy, absolutely.
Nika Lawrie (36:54):
I love it too.
Yeah, I think just you know,spending your time doing what
you love inspires other peopleto spend time doing what they
love.
So yeah.
Well, dr Fox, thank you so muchfor your time, for your
information, for your educationon this topic.
It's been so, so helpful, so Ireally appreciate it, thank you.
Dr. Terri Fox (37:13):
Oh, thank you for having me and thank you for the
work that you do.
Nika Lawrie (37:16):
Oh, thank you.
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