September 10, 2024 • 44 mins
Lisa Heacock faced an unimaginable series of losses that transformed her life and inspired her to help others navigate their own grief. Grief is multifaceted, often stemming from events beyond the death of a loved one, such as divorce or career upheavals. Lisa sheds light on how unrecognized grief can leave people feeling stuck and unfulfilled. By helping her clients identify their core values and take small yet impactful steps, she facilitates transformative personal growth. Her insights emphasize the importance of self-trust and authentic living, offering a lifeline to those grappling with unresolved emotions and lingering traumas.
CONNECT WITH LISA HEACOCK:
- http://www.holisticlifecoaching.org.uk
- https://linktr.ee/CoachLisaMarie
- Understanding Grief - Practical ways to support grieving loved ones. https://page.holisticlifecoaching.org.uk/grief-support-ebook
- Free masterclass in September - Grief to Grace - Understanding & supporting grief: https://go.holisticlifecoaching.org.uk/grieftograce
- Free consultation/discovery call: https://calendly.com/lisamheacock/15-minute-consultation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nika Lawrie (00:15):
Lisa Hacock.
Welcome to the show.
I'm so happy to have you here.
Lisa Heacock (00:19):
Thanks so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
Nika Lawrie (00:22):
Yeah, so I'm really excited to have this
conversation with you today.
We're going to talk about griefmostly, but you have a pretty
powerful story about how you'vepersonally been impacted by
grief.
I know I've had a lot of traumathat's happened in my life kind
of relating to that too.
But before we get into that, Iwant you can you share a little
(00:43):
bit about yourself.
Tell me your backstory.
You're a life, a holistic lifecoach and a grief coach as well.
But how did you get into that?
What's your story?
Lisa Heacock (00:52):
Yes, I mean, that is the, that is what changed the
trajectory of my life, or thelosses, yeah, so, as it does,
you know, we, we are changed.
Nika Lawrie (01:01):
Yeah, right, yeah.
Lisa Heacock (01:02):
Yeah, right, yeah, yeah.
So I, you know my brother and II've got an older brother and
we always say we won the parentlottery, you know which.
So we grew up in a reallyloving home.
You know, mom and dad were kindof surrogate parents to so many
kids in the neighborhood, so wewere really, really fortunate.
So I didn't really have lossand trauma or any of that as a
(01:25):
child.
In 2005, I moved from the US tothe UK with my then husband and
my two girls and when you're4,000 miles away, you kind of
are dreading that phone callsomeday.
Yeah, and it did happen in 2018.
(01:46):
So between 2018 and 2019, Ilost 12 loved ones through death
.
Yeah, it was a lot of loss.
So it's a very compound griefbecause it's one right after
another.
So I lost my niece and then mydad was diagnosed with brain
cancer and so I quit my job andmoved there to Seattle to just
(02:12):
take care of him and take careof my mom.
I mean, they'd been married for55 years or something like that
.
So I went back and took care ofhim until he passed away seven
months later.
And then I would say in betweenthat time, then I lost my mom 14
(02:36):
months after my dad.
She had come here to the UKafter my dad had passed and she
stayed for a couple months.
We had a great trip.
It was difficult because she'salways been with my dad wanted
(03:06):
to see, and so we just traveledaround the UK.
And then, you know, when Idropped her off at Manchester
airport, I just did not knowthat would be the last time I
was going to see my mom.
And she had passed away in hersleep.
I think really just of a brokenheart.
She didn't give up, but I thinkthe trauma and the loss of my
dad was just too much.
(03:26):
And then, two months after mymom passed away, we lost my 24
year old son-in-law in a tragicfall in front of my daughter,
and so that call in the middleof the night has just got to be
the worst.
So I've lost family, and thenfriends and friends, children.
And, like I said, it's just, itwas like every time you lift
(03:49):
your head, bam, you get hitagain.
Nika Lawrie (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Man, how did you even likebegin to process some of that?
Lisa Heacock (03:59):
Yeah, well, you know, after we lost Jack, my
focus was to try to stay abovethe water, so to speak, so that
I could help care for mydaughter.
He was broken hearted, and myother daughter, my older
daughter, who left Jack, andlike we were all grieving, and
(04:21):
so I the very first thing that Idid after I lost my mom.
So it took about 14 months, andthen I thought, oh my God, I
need help.
And it was before Jack passedaway that I hired a bereavement
counselor here.
I didn't know what to do, butI'm pro therapy, so I thought,
well, that's got to be my firstport of call, be my first port
(04:47):
of call.
I was really fortunate.
She's wonderful and she helpedme.
I was with her for a year and ahalf and, to be honest, I just
did everything that I could.
I did sound bath, gong, healing, I went to Zumba and yoga and
chiropractic and massage therapy, like I just tried to do
everything.
And then you know what?
(05:08):
Sometimes it was just put thehoodie over my head and watch
Netflix, check out, eatchocolate and popcorn and be
okay with that too.
You know, sometimes it's justso hard to even get out of bed
or brush your teeth, so, um, soI grabbed a hold of, you know,
books and podcast, like I dideverything that I truly felt
(05:32):
like I could, just if I don'tknow what worked, but I was
willing to try everything, allof it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly,that's yeah.
And after I hired a therapistand I was was kind of done with
her and feeling a bit more, thenI hired a life coach and that's
where it was kind of like thisis my reality, and now what do I
(05:54):
want to do?
And that's where things changedfor me in that sense, moving
forward.
Nika Lawrie (06:07):
So how did that so?
From the the point of likehaving the bereavement coach and
then the life coach, how didyou decide to take the step to
actually move into thisprofession for yourself?
Lisa Heacock (06:12):
Well, it was.
So I mean I tell like, when Itell this story is so weird and
I don't even know how to explainit, but I was working in
corporate, it was during covid.
So I'm working from home andI'm typing away and I swear,
somehow not like in a verbal,but somehow it was like at least
you need to be a life coach.
I didn't even know what thatwas.
(06:35):
I Googled what a life coach was.
I mean, it's not that massivein the UK.
At least I didn't think so.
It wasn't in my world.
So I'm Googling it.
I was like, oh yeah, okay, well,if I'm going to be one, I'm
going to and I'm going to go,you know, go down the road of
certification and accreditationand all that.
So I went and just did a deepdive research.
(06:55):
But I need to hire one, like Idon't know what that they do, so
I should probably get one.
It was really a great decision.
Actually it was a good choiceon my part.
So I went and found the personand so for me it was more that I
was going to go down that roadof being a life coach that I
(07:20):
then found a coach, and that, tome, is where it all kind of
changed where I was, like I,this is something that I can do.
I can take my experiences, myknowledge of working with women
and men in the past that I cannow bring all of my life
(07:44):
experience, along with education, and help others kind of, you
know, move through being stuckor feeling lost or, you know,
grieving.
Nika Lawrie (07:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
So you went through the processbecoming certified, which I
commend you for doing that,because I think so often people
are like I'm a life coach andthey just decide to do it and
there's so much that really goesinto understanding you know how
people behave and how peoplethink and how to change their
mindset and really to help themchange habits and behaviors and
(08:15):
all of that kind of thing.
So there's a lot that reallygoes into that.
So I commend you for actuallygoing through the process and
really becoming an expert inthat field for sure.
Lisa Heacock (08:24):
Yeah, it was really, really important.
And then getting accreditationand getting all my hours in and
stuff, it was really reallyimportant for me.
I don't know that many peopleask me what my certification and
accreditation is, but itdoesn't matter because I know
that I just want to give thebest, so I needed to learn what
(08:45):
that was.
Nika Lawrie (08:45):
I think that gives yourself a sense of confidence
and security in your own abilityto teach and support as well.
Like you know, I really do knowmy stuff.
I can really help somebody.
I think that's a powerful pointthat comes from that kind of
process.
Lisa Heacock (09:01):
A hundred percent, I agree, yeah, yeah, kind of
process.
Nika Lawrie (09:03):
A hundred percent, I agree, yeah, yeah.
So now that you are, you knowyou've moved forward in the, in
the kind of transformationaljourney.
What does it look like whenclients come to see you?
You know, I, I imagine there'sa whole range of grief or trauma
that they've experienced thatyou're helping them work through
.
What are some of those examples?
What does that look like?
Lisa Heacock (09:24):
Yeah, I think the most important thing to
understand is that grief comesin many different forms of loss,
so there's a lot of differenttypes of losses.
It's not just the loss of aloved one through death, is it?
I mean there's divorce,parental alienation, so one
(09:45):
parent is pitting the childrenagainst and using them as a tool
against the other parent, whichcan be heartbreaking.
And there are people who cometo me who don't really
understand that the grief orloss that they're experiencing
(10:05):
is connected to how they'refeeling.
So they might come to me forlife coaching and as we start to
talk about areas where theyfeel stuck or where they're
really at a crossroads orthey're not really quite sure
who they are and what makes themtick, and you start to look
back.
Maybe they were a rugby playerand they had an injury and that
(10:28):
stopped.
There's a huge loss andidentity and all of that wrapped
in there.
Nika Lawrie (10:33):
I was going to say that I've been through some
pretty major traumas and loss,but one of the hardest ones for
me was leaving a career that I'dbeen in for a long time and I
left.
It was a very you know, I choseto leave, I gave my notice and
quit the job, but I had workedthere for a long time, you know,
in the space it was kind of animportant role, like I get.
(10:56):
You know, anybody can do anyjob kind of thing, so it's not
like that, but it was kind of animportant role and it took me
years to make peace with theloss of that identity and really
figure out who I am on my ownoutside of that.
And that was actually, you know, compared to some of the other
traumas I've been through, itwas kind of a no, not you know,
it was kind of this minimalthing, but it really had a
(11:18):
massive impact on my life.
I think people-.
Lisa Heacock (11:21):
Absolutely, yes, absolutely, and I think that's
such an important messagebecause it's one of those
ambiguous griefs.
It's one of those ones whereit's like there's not really
necessarily anything to attack.
You hadn't buried anyone Rightand so and also kind of
disenfranchised grief, meaning,like people around you are like
(11:43):
what, what's the problem?
Like you quit.
So even you know, I wentthrough a very amicable divorce
about a year after we lost Jack.
You know what it highlightsareas in your life where you're
not happy, where you know and weboth looked at each other and
just went God, life is reallyshort and fragile.
(12:03):
You know divorce is.
There's still loss there.
There's still you know ahistory of nearly 30 years.
Still, you know a history ofnearly 30 years.
And yet people are like, well,they didn't say this to me, but
you know people might think well, you left, you guys decided to
do it Like you chose to leaveyour career.
That doesn't mean that there'snot pain and loss there.
Nika Lawrie (12:26):
Absolutely, yeah for sure.
So when, when people come to,you know either, for let's do
kind of life coaching first andthen we'll separate grief,
because I think it's kind ofthey go together but kind of two
different pockets.
So when somebody comes to forlife coaching, say they feel
stuck in a you know, maybe stuckin moving their career forward
(12:50):
or a relationship, what are someof the kind of basic tools that
you help them to maybe kind ofget unstuck, to think
differently, to kind of reset,if that makes sense.
Lisa Heacock (13:01):
Yeah, so there's a lot of mindset reset isn't
there?
Yeah, but one of the very corethings that I do with clients
know, when I talk about it it'salmost like you can see people
going like what, but when youget it and you go through the
process is literallylife-changing.
So we really focus at thefoundation core of their values.
(13:27):
What are their core values?
You know, if you've been incorporate world, they'll go
here's our core values, here'sour mission statement.
Right, you need to buy intothat.
And you go yeah, whatever,there's no attachment to it.
But then you ask someone whatare your personal, your five
non-negotiable core values?
(13:48):
Most people have no idea whatthat is.
Nika Lawrie (13:51):
And it's actually kind of emotional and difficult
when you start to think about itto really try to figure out
what those are too yeah.
Lisa Heacock (13:58):
Yes.
So we take them through aprocess of this and you know,
this can be a couple sessions ofjust working through and
narrowing down that, becausethen we start going, aha, these
are courses, other values, butthese are your non-negotiables.
And when you're living out ofalignment in that, that's why
(14:19):
you feel what you're feeling, orthat's why when someone says
something, you respond waydifferently than others because
they're stepping all over yourvalues.
So we want to get in alignment.
So it's really more aboutfiguring out who they are at the
very core, their authentic self, you know, instead of using
(14:40):
that word.
So we hear it a lot, butthere's, there's value to that,
and so that is one of the veryfirst things.
And I always say, like, if youare feeling stuck, that is like
a screaming siren to say move.
Nika Lawrie (14:56):
Yeah.
Lisa Heacock (14:57):
Like you need to move.
It doesn't mean you need toliterally move from you know
countries or cities, or you needto take some incremental steps,
and I always say incrementalsteps lead to monumental change.
So just the incremental stepsand it is.
It is, it is screaming at youdo something.
Nika Lawrie (15:17):
Yeah, absolutely, and I take action.
I get I, you know, my heartbreaks cause I.
I work with women all the timeand and I see them feel stuck in
their health, you know issuesthey've dealt with a chronic
disease for a while or they'vebeen in an unhealthy
relationship which leads tostress and those kinds of things
(15:39):
that then causes other healthissues, and so often it's like
the answer is I just feel stuck,I don't know what to do, and so
I think, helping them reallystart to think about what it is
they actually want, and thenhelping them take those little
baby steps towards thatdirection and that direction,
what I found personally is thatas I start taking those baby
(16:01):
steps in the direction thatfeels right to me, the vision
becomes clearer and clearer andclearer as you kind of walk down
that path.
Lisa Heacock (16:10):
Totally agree.
I always say to them it's likethis ball of string in your head
right and like you have no idea.
If you pull it's going to justall unravel.
So what I want to do is just,you know, having a third party
person who's not emotionallyattached can kind of help pull
that string.
And then, like you said, itbecomes more and more and more
(16:31):
clear as you go down the road.
I think I don't know if youexperienced this, but I find
that some individuals, or a lotof clients, just really don't
trust their intuition, their gut, they don't trust themselves to
make that decision.
Nika Lawrie (16:48):
I think what I've seen is that they almost a
disconnect, like they almostdon't feel like they are
connected to themselves anymore.
You know, I saw this kind of aweird way to describe it, but I
saw a picture once of it was.
It was a man that I think.
He was like four or 500 pounds,very overweight, and it was an
(17:09):
x-ray of his body and you couldsee the very thin, tiny skeleton
inside and then all this otherkind of skin and fat and stuff
around the skeleton and thetakeaway that I felt with it is
like you can't even see who thatperson is.
And I'm not trying to take awayfrom that person at all, but
(17:31):
like the disconnect that youwould have from like who you are
at the core and so reallyfiguring out how to connect with
yourself again so that you cantrust your intuition and have
that conversation and you knowand it's I think a lot of people
really struggle with justhearing what the internal voice
is saying to themselves.
(17:51):
I hope that makes sense?
Lisa Heacock (17:52):
Yeah, absolutely, and that is, you know I.
Each person is different,aren't they?
And so they come with differentviewpoints, different mindset,
different experiences, differenttraumas, different.
So what works for one doesn'tnecessarily work for another.
(18:13):
Right, but when you kind ofgeneralize, you're right, it's
this disconnect and or like, ohwell, I've made that decision
and look where it got me and sotherefore I can't trust anything
because it's just wrong.
And so we start trying to buildup their confidence and their
courage and their intuition aswell.
(18:34):
And it really is about you know, it's so beautiful, isn't it?
When they start to, when peoplestart to and I feel like it did
this for me personally, so thisis very personal is that you
start to figure out who you are,what you want, what you desire,
what you deserve, what you want, what you desire, what you
(18:55):
deserve.
Then you start to go down thatroad and you literally like,
step into your power and youdon't apologize.
Then this is who I am.
I don't have, I don't have toshrink for anyone, I don't have
to apologize.
It's just super empowering, andso I love watching the
transition.
So you're right, they'll do,they'll come for life coaching.
We'd say 80% of clients I haveare life coaching.
(19:18):
There may be some grief wrappedin there.
Like you said, they kind of cango hand in hand, but that's not
necessarily what they firstcome for.
Nika Lawrie (19:29):
Yeah, I think so often, you know, I have people
come to me for health coaching,kind of similar to that.
You know they want to gethealthy, they're struggling with
something, they want to loseweight, whatever it is.
But then when you start to peelback all the layers and really
start to work with them and talkto them, so often it's, you
know, a traumatic event thatthey haven't processed or worked
(19:49):
through.
It's a life changing, you know,like loss of identity, those
kinds of things.
It's a loss of a loved one.
It's, you know, childhoodtrauma that caused them to start
doing things.
And what happens is that, inorder to manage the struggle
that comes from that trauma,they start to do kind of
(20:11):
self-comforting habits androutines that aren't necessarily
healthy for them and they getso accustomed to that safety,
that comfort, that they eat theunhealthy foods or you know, the
unhealthy habit routine.
We still really have to starttalking about some of the other
stuff that goes on, some of theother you know internal life
(20:41):
struggles that they're having.
Lisa Heacock (20:43):
Yeah, I mean, there's a real root cause to the
way we behave or think or ourhabits or and our behaviors and
our actions.
So there's usually always aroot cause to that, isn't there?
Yeah?
Nika Lawrie (20:59):
So when you have a client that comes to you, you
start working with them as thelife coach and then you start to
identify some of these griefissues.
What are some of the tools ormodalities that you maybe use to
help them start to process andwork through that grief?
Lisa Heacock (21:15):
I think it is an interesting process because you
certainly don't want to just belike, hey, you're grieving this
loss, like there's this kind ofself-awareness, but also I don't
want to push someone where theyaren't ready to go.
I'm not a therapist and I soeither, you know, if they do end
(21:37):
up needing therapy orcounseling, I will pass them
along and say, listen, youshould probably do that, and
some, some clients who do bothcoaching and therapy at the same
time.
But if it is that grief thatthey're now starting to
recognize that it is, first, Ithink one of the most important
(22:02):
things is giving them a safespace to be able to say and feel
and say anything.
You know you can't say to yourfriends or your family or
somebody because you're afraidof their emotions.
You have to carry theiremotions as well as yours, right
?
So or you feel like you do, soit is about creating that safe
space where they can just shareanything, yeah.
(22:24):
And then really, it's aboutvalidating those feelings Like
no, you're not crazy, you're notbroken, you're grieving, like
this grieving this is grief.
And so some of the tools that Iwould have them do after
they've done these things, wherethey're actually speaking is
(22:47):
sometimes they need to do somejournaling and just writing,
even if they're not a journalerI hate journaling, but I will,
I'll type.
So I'll kind of like I'll startwriting something creative that
they can do and or likemeditation, we need to calm
their nervous system.
So we want to regulate theirnervous system.
(23:09):
So we I talk to people abouttheir the five senses method.
I mean, I don't think that'sthe name of it, I just made that
up, but it is where you'redealing with trauma or worry
from the past.
You're fearful of the future,You're worrying in the future
(23:30):
that we want to bring you intothe moment and calm your nervous
system.
So all of the things thateverybody talks about by
exercising and eating right andall of those things.
But I always say you know, gooutside, what do you hear, what
do you see?
Maybe you're having a cup oftea or drinking water.
(23:51):
But use some of those senses andit is impossible to think about
your past and think about thefuture when you're doing that
exercise, because it just bringsyou into the moment and that
will bring their nervous systemdown.
(24:12):
The cortisol is probablyshooting through their system,
especially once they startrecognizing that this is grief,
because all those emotions startcoming up.
So that is one of the things Iwant to make sure we calm their
nervous systems.
There's all different tools andstuff and I think it really
just depends.
I kind of use my intuitionabout what's best for this
(24:33):
client right now, like, what dothey need right now?
Nika Lawrie (24:38):
Yeah, definitely Are there.
Even you've already kind ofgiven a few examples.
But are there some things thatpeople can do, kind of self-care
strategies almost, that theycan start to do?
Let me step back.
I know when I was going througha traumatic event, you actually
said something that was reallyprofound for me when I learned
it a few years ago was I'm notbroken, I'm not crazy, I'm
(25:02):
grieving.
Like that was so key for me tolearn and understand, and once I
learned that I was able to kindof take the pressure off myself
or not feel so guilty maybe Idon't know if guilt is the right
word, but I definitely feltlike it was my fault or I was
broken.
But when I was able tounderstand that, I was able to
(25:23):
start taking care of myself,doing things kind of differently
like you were talking about,you know, meditating or going
outside, those kind of things.
Are there any specificself-care strategies that you
would recommend that kind ofhelp kind of break that sadness
routine or or kind of break theeveryday cycle?
Lisa Heacock (25:41):
Yeah, I it's.
It is one of those things where, depending on the loss and
depending on if you're in thisacute grief so if it's right now
and it's fresh, sometimes it'sjust like I said, it's hard to
even get up and brush your teethand you're definitely not going
to the grocery store and you'recertainly not cooking.
So it depends on where you arein the process and how you're
(26:09):
experiencing this loss.
But I think that that isabsolutely key is to understand
that you are grieving.
Grief and guilt are like amarried couple.
They go hand in hand.
So when you were talking aboutguilt, like it usually follows,
like it's there, and so it is.
You know, the the again, it'sthis, this language that we use,
(26:31):
but it's there for a reason.
So, being kind to yourself andallowing yourself to just be,
and if that is just laying onthe couch at that moment, then
not to feel bad about that.
The other thing that I think isvery important that we kind of
(26:53):
because we can sit there and gooh, you should, you know, yes,
exercise, eat right, you knowdrink your water, go for walks,
get out into nature, meditate,like all those things we know.
But one of the things thathelped me personally was
surrounding myself withsupportive, loving, you know,
(27:15):
life breathing, not energydraining, vampire friends yeah
Right.
That to me was like I had mypeople and anybody else.
I didn't have any energy togive to anybody, and if they
were draining my energy, I hadto protect my energy at all
(27:36):
costs, and so, therefore, Ieither put them on the shelf
just for a while, like they'renot I don't despise them, I just
they just drain my energy or Ikick them off the shelf, like I
really don't like, like what are.
Who are you know?
Who are you we?
You no longer serve me, I'm nothere to serve you, kind of.
(27:58):
You know, toxic relationships Iwould literally have to get rid
.
Nika Lawrie (28:04):
Yeah.
Lisa Heacock (28:04):
And it was the best thing that I did and that,
to me, is one of the bestself-care that you can do.
Nika Lawrie (28:14):
I mean, I think that's a good self-care at any
time, not just grief for sure.
Yes, true, 100%.
Yeah, it's really understandingkind of having those
self-boundaries, you know, andit's okay to have those people
in your life, but reallyunderstand the time and place to
kind of keep them in, if thatmakes sense.
Lisa Heacock (28:33):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think when we're talking
about grief or loss of any kindand you're really in this dark
place, it becomes again, like Isaid, within.
When you are in that place,it's almost like this light is
just shining on these areas.
(28:54):
If you're self-aware, it'sshining on the areas that you
may not have seen before, but itcertainly highlights it and it
feels even heavier, you know, ora toxic relationship or a toxic
friendship, or an energydrainer, or it just becomes even
more obvious.
Nika Lawrie (29:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So this kind of answered sortof a question that I was going
to ask.
But you know, one of the thingsI hear a lot around it's almost
like a cultural thing aroundgrieving and especially when
it's fresh is there's anexpectation that people aren't
supposed to feel any joy orlaughter when they're going
(29:37):
through the grieving process.
And then two people tend tofeel like, well, it's been a
year, you should be over thegrief.
So the question is is it okayto feel joy and laughter,
especially early on, when youare grieving?
And then, is there a settimeframe to you know the
grieving process, right?
Lisa Heacock (29:59):
Well, I mean, there are no rules.
And I think we love to putrules and like put things in
little boxes and put a littlebow on it and make it all pretty
.
And it's just not, there justisn't any rules to it.
It and make it all pretty, andit's just not, there just isn't
any rules to it.
So I'll answer your lastquestion Absolutely no timeframe
whatsoever.
I mean, I say to people like,how long will you be grieving
(30:20):
Well, how long will they be dead?
I mean, that is how long I'llbe grieving them.
Nika Lawrie (30:24):
That's a great way.
Lisa Heacock (30:27):
But will I be suffering?
So is there a differencebetween grieving and missing
someone and suffering?
That's a difference.
In the acute grief there's alot of suffering, right, and
there's no timeframe on that,absolutely 100%.
(31:12):
You can still have laughter,you can still have great
relationships, you can still behappy in certain areas, and
expert grief experts and he said, you can fully live and fully
grieve at the same time.
Those two things can coexist.
And so sometimes there's thatguilt that comes up like, oh,
I'm laughing, oh I shouldn't belike.
But for me personally,especially when it came to my
(31:34):
parents, I know you're supposedto bury your parents Like this
is the way it's supposed to work.
You parents die first.
You'd never you shouldn't beburying your children.
That just is out of order.
Um, but you know, I wasn't even50 years old.
You know what I mean.
And when you still lose yourparents it doesn't matter what
(31:55):
age they're, like your mom anddad and there's your DNA, right
there's a huge loss.
So not to minimize that and Ithink that that's important.
But I always thought, like,what would my mom like?
I could hear my dad going no,don't cry for us.
You almost hear him cheeringfor you, and because I had great
(32:16):
parents, I'm fortunate in that,and so I kind of think, well,
would they want me to be in mybed all the time?
It's such a deep suffering.
It does not mean I wasn't fullygrieving, but I would watch
something funny on Netflix justto laugh, just to get that
(32:39):
laughter and spend time withfriends and family.
My girls always make me laughand, to be fair, even after Jack
passed and it was just horrific, this is, I would say, it was
New Year's Eve, so he passedaway on the 30th of November
2019.
So on New Year's Eve in 2019, amonth later, his parents had a
(33:02):
house full of all the kids thatall grew up you know, they're
all adults now and we weretelling stories about Jack and
laughing and they were havinggreat laughs about the funny
things that he did, and that, tome, was a beautiful example of
fully living and fully grievingat the same time, and I truly
(33:27):
believe that you have to goafter it, like it doesn't come
naturally.
You have to go seek it out andyou have to, whatever it is that
will help you find some joy andpeace, you know, during a
really dumpster fire of a time.
Nika Lawrie (33:47):
Absolutely yeah.
Are there things that we can doas, say, like the partner or
the friend or, you know, theloved one of somebody who is
grieving.
What are, what are, some of thethings that we can do to
support them?
Lisa Heacock (34:00):
Uh, you know I love this question.
It was like my favoritequestion because we are, so we
are grief illiterate, but Ithink we're getting a lot better
.
Um, and grief and loss of anytype, especially the loss of
loved ones, like it's going tohappen, it's just a part of life
, is death right?
And I wrote this kind of guide,free guide, of how to support
(34:27):
loved ones who are grieving anytype of loss.
But if we're talking about lossof loved ones who've passed
away, some of the kind of do'sand don'ts, really just as real
practical stuff.
I mean don't say you knowthey're in a better place.
Don't say time heals all wounds, you know.
(34:47):
Don't say it's been a year, youknow, like hello, or like just
wait for a year and then you'llbe fine, like just don't, just
don't, don't say anything.
I think we're, we feel reallyuncomfortable when people are
hurting and we, to be fair tothe friends and family, they
don't want you to hurt, sothey're trying to have you not
(35:08):
hurt, but you will and you areand it's not going to change.
So how can we be more helpfulthan hurtful, right?
Yep, exactly.
So I always say think of thethings that you do every day.
So you do the dishes.
If you have children, you takeyour children to school, or
(35:31):
you've got dogs that need towalk, you have to go to the
grocery store every so often.
These clean cook all the thingsthat you would normally do
without even thinking about.
It is nearly next to impossiblefor someone who is in acute
(35:51):
grief.
Yeah, so if your friend has losttheir dad or their partner or
whatever they've got, they'regoing through such a difficult
time, even in a divorce.
Let's say, I'm going to thegrocery store to get some milk,
do you like, do you needanything to get some milk?
(36:14):
Did you like, do you needanything?
And I was talking to a guest onmy show and she said she had
lost a son.
And she said for a year and ahalf her friend went to the
grocery store every week for herA year and a half.
And the reason was is becausewhen you go up to the Castro,
just especially in the state,how are you today?
You know, and it's like, well,I'm like really, it's awful,
(36:37):
like you're not going to you'renot going to talk about it and
you don't want to hear thatquestion.
Yeah, so I think that that'salso a really.
Those are just some practicalthings.
But also in that question.
So some people like how are you?
They know that you're not okayand they don't know how or what
to say.
So I would normally you couldsay to people like I know you're
(37:02):
not okay, but like where areyou at?
Like even scales, sometimeslike 10's, a really hideous day,
you know.
One is like I'm, I mean, I'mhere, you know, and and kind of
where are you in that?
Um, and then it's, that's, it'sthe standard, like you don't
(37:23):
have to actually say anythingyeah, you just kind of be there.
Nika Lawrie (37:31):
Let them know you're here, yeah.
Lisa Heacock (37:33):
Yeah, and it does depend on the relationship.
So you know, I mean, if you'renot super close, you don't need
to be at the doorstep.
Maybe they don't want that,right, but so it does depend on
the relationship.
But I always say to people likeyou can send a message and just
start out.
This is what I always say Startout with.
(37:53):
You, do not need to respond,because they're probably getting
loads of messages, whichhopefully they are, because
people love them.
But it's pressure.
Now I need to respond, becausethen they're going to think I
don't like them and they don'tneed that.
So you don't need to respond.
I just want you to know I'mhere.
If you need anything, I'm hereand, like you're on the
peripheral, you're there andthey know it.
(38:15):
And every so often, sendingthem messages, the worst thing
that you can do is ignore them.
Nika Lawrie (38:24):
Yeah, I have a.
I have a dear friend who losther brother a couple of years
ago.
Who lost her brother a coupleyears ago, and she said one of
the hardest parts was that manyof the people in her circle
didn't know how to deal with hergrief, so they just ignored her
or stopped talking to her.
And she said that was one ofthe most painful, detrimental
(38:45):
parts of the whole process.
Lisa Heacock (38:47):
Yeah, and that I hear a lot of.
I didn't really have that withmy core people but, like for me,
that to me is just notacceptable.
Nika Lawrie (39:17):
Yeah.
Lisa Heacock (39:17):
So that is the.
That is one of the worst thingsthat people can do.
So you don't know what to say,say, I have no idea what to say.
I'm just going to sit here withyou and you know, let you cry
and I'll cry with you and we'lljust have a cry fest.
Nika Lawrie (39:33):
I mean sometimes it's OK to say nothing, Exactly.
That is the best thing you know, like yeah just, they just need
to know that you're there.
Yeah, that's all care.
Lisa Heacock (39:44):
Mm, hmm, yeah.
Nika Lawrie (39:45):
Yeah, lisa, I have one more question for you, but
before I get to that, can youtell me where can people connect
with you?
How can we, you know, eitherfor life coaching or grief
support?
Where are you online?
How can people find you?
Lisa Heacock (40:00):
Yeah, I mean, my website is
holisticlifecoachingorguk.
I am on Instagram at holisticunderscore coach, underscore
Lisa.
I am on Instagram at holisticunderscore coach, underscore
Lisa, and Facebook is Lisa.
Well, actually it's my maidenname.
Lisa Marie Messicks is wherethey can find me.
(40:22):
I can be found on my website.
It has all that stuff.
Nika Lawrie (40:26):
I'll put everything in the show notes too.
Yeah, great, yeah.
So, lisa, my last question foryou today and you probably kind
of already touched on this butwhat is something kind of game
changing that you've eitherlearned or experienced that you
would like to share with others,to inspire them to live a great
life?
Lisa Heacock (40:47):
Well, you know, I've been I've always kind of
been addicted to personaldevelopment, but for me it truly
is about seeking help.
We're not meant to do this lifealone, and so, whatever that
looks like for the person, dowhatever you need to do is, in a
(41:11):
healthiest way possible, tomove forward.
Grab, grab it everything,anything and everything that you
can, because you're notsupposed to do it alone.
Life is short and fragile andin my view, it's like you better
.
You better live it like.
(41:31):
Grab a hold of it, do whateveryou need to do in order to live
a happy, healthy life that you,you know, desire and you deserve
.
Um, I mean, we're not meant tobe like, miserable we're not,
yeah, yeah, at all at all.
Nika Lawrie (41:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, lisa, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
Thank you for the work thatyou're doing and how you're
supporting other people andreally helping change lives.
I think that's such animportant thing and powerful, so
thank you for both.
I really appreciate it.
Lisa Heacock (42:02):
Well, thanks for having me.
It's been great, absolutely.
Lisa Hacock.
Welcome to the show.
I'm so happy to have you here.
Lisa Heacock (00:19):
Thanks so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
Nika Lawrie (00:22):
Yeah, so I'm really excited to have this
conversation with you today.
We're going to talk about griefmostly, but you have a pretty
powerful story about how you'vepersonally been impacted by
grief.
I know I've had a lot of traumathat's happened in my life kind
of relating to that too.
But before we get into that, Iwant you can you share a little
(00:43):
bit about yourself.
Tell me your backstory.
You're a life, a holistic lifecoach and a grief coach as well.
But how did you get into that?
What's your story?
Lisa Heacock (00:52):
Yes, I mean, that is the, that is what changed the
trajectory of my life, or thelosses, yeah, so, as it does,
you know, we, we are changed.
Nika Lawrie (01:01):
Yeah, right, yeah.
Lisa Heacock (01:02):
Yeah, right, yeah, yeah.
So I, you know my brother and II've got an older brother and
we always say we won the parentlottery, you know which.
So we grew up in a reallyloving home.
You know, mom and dad were kindof surrogate parents to so many
kids in the neighborhood, so wewere really, really fortunate.
So I didn't really have lossand trauma or any of that as a
(01:25):
child.
In 2005, I moved from the US tothe UK with my then husband and
my two girls and when you're4,000 miles away, you kind of
are dreading that phone callsomeday.
Yeah, and it did happen in 2018.
(01:46):
So between 2018 and 2019, Ilost 12 loved ones through death
.
Yeah, it was a lot of loss.
So it's a very compound griefbecause it's one right after
another.
So I lost my niece and then mydad was diagnosed with brain
cancer and so I quit my job andmoved there to Seattle to just
(02:12):
take care of him and take careof my mom.
I mean, they'd been married for55 years or something like that
.
So I went back and took care ofhim until he passed away seven
months later.
And then I would say in betweenthat time, then I lost my mom 14
(02:36):
months after my dad.
She had come here to the UKafter my dad had passed and she
stayed for a couple months.
We had a great trip.
It was difficult because she'salways been with my dad wanted
(03:06):
to see, and so we just traveledaround the UK.
And then, you know, when Idropped her off at Manchester
airport, I just did not knowthat would be the last time I
was going to see my mom.
And she had passed away in hersleep.
I think really just of a brokenheart.
She didn't give up, but I thinkthe trauma and the loss of my
dad was just too much.
(03:26):
And then, two months after mymom passed away, we lost my 24
year old son-in-law in a tragicfall in front of my daughter,
and so that call in the middleof the night has just got to be
the worst.
So I've lost family, and thenfriends and friends, children.
And, like I said, it's just, itwas like every time you lift
(03:49):
your head, bam, you get hitagain.
Nika Lawrie (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Man, how did you even likebegin to process some of that?
Lisa Heacock (03:59):
Yeah, well, you know, after we lost Jack, my
focus was to try to stay abovethe water, so to speak, so that
I could help care for mydaughter.
He was broken hearted, and myother daughter, my older
daughter, who left Jack, andlike we were all grieving, and
(04:21):
so I the very first thing that Idid after I lost my mom.
So it took about 14 months, andthen I thought, oh my God, I
need help.
And it was before Jack passedaway that I hired a bereavement
counselor here.
I didn't know what to do, butI'm pro therapy, so I thought,
well, that's got to be my firstport of call, be my first port
(04:47):
of call.
I was really fortunate.
She's wonderful and she helpedme.
I was with her for a year and ahalf and, to be honest, I just
did everything that I could.
I did sound bath, gong, healing, I went to Zumba and yoga and
chiropractic and massage therapy, like I just tried to do
everything.
And then you know what?
(05:08):
Sometimes it was just put thehoodie over my head and watch
Netflix, check out, eatchocolate and popcorn and be
okay with that too.
You know, sometimes it's justso hard to even get out of bed
or brush your teeth, so, um, soI grabbed a hold of, you know,
books and podcast, like I dideverything that I truly felt
(05:32):
like I could, just if I don'tknow what worked, but I was
willing to try everything, allof it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly,that's yeah.
And after I hired a therapistand I was was kind of done with
her and feeling a bit more, thenI hired a life coach and that's
where it was kind of like thisis my reality, and now what do I
(05:54):
want to do?
And that's where things changedfor me in that sense, moving
forward.
Nika Lawrie (06:07):
So how did that so?
From the the point of likehaving the bereavement coach and
then the life coach, how didyou decide to take the step to
actually move into thisprofession for yourself?
Lisa Heacock (06:12):
Well, it was.
So I mean I tell like, when Itell this story is so weird and
I don't even know how to explainit, but I was working in
corporate, it was during covid.
So I'm working from home andI'm typing away and I swear,
somehow not like in a verbal,but somehow it was like at least
you need to be a life coach.
I didn't even know what thatwas.
(06:35):
I Googled what a life coach was.
I mean, it's not that massivein the UK.
At least I didn't think so.
It wasn't in my world.
So I'm Googling it.
I was like, oh yeah, okay, well,if I'm going to be one, I'm
going to and I'm going to go,you know, go down the road of
certification and accreditationand all that.
So I went and just did a deepdive research.
(06:55):
But I need to hire one, like Idon't know what that they do, so
I should probably get one.
It was really a great decision.
Actually it was a good choiceon my part.
So I went and found the personand so for me it was more that I
was going to go down that roadof being a life coach that I
(07:20):
then found a coach, and that, tome, is where it all kind of
changed where I was, like I,this is something that I can do.
I can take my experiences, myknowledge of working with women
and men in the past that I cannow bring all of my life
(07:44):
experience, along with education, and help others kind of, you
know, move through being stuckor feeling lost or, you know,
grieving.
Nika Lawrie (07:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
So you went through the processbecoming certified, which I
commend you for doing that,because I think so often people
are like I'm a life coach andthey just decide to do it and
there's so much that really goesinto understanding you know how
people behave and how peoplethink and how to change their
mindset and really to help themchange habits and behaviors and
(08:15):
all of that kind of thing.
So there's a lot that reallygoes into that.
So I commend you for actuallygoing through the process and
really becoming an expert inthat field for sure.
Lisa Heacock (08:24):
Yeah, it was really, really important.
And then getting accreditationand getting all my hours in and
stuff, it was really reallyimportant for me.
I don't know that many peopleask me what my certification and
accreditation is, but itdoesn't matter because I know
that I just want to give thebest, so I needed to learn what
(08:45):
that was.
Nika Lawrie (08:45):
I think that gives yourself a sense of confidence
and security in your own abilityto teach and support as well.
Like you know, I really do knowmy stuff.
I can really help somebody.
I think that's a powerful pointthat comes from that kind of
process.
Lisa Heacock (09:01):
A hundred percent, I agree, yeah, yeah, kind of
process.
Nika Lawrie (09:03):
A hundred percent, I agree, yeah, yeah.
So now that you are, you knowyou've moved forward in the, in
the kind of transformationaljourney.
What does it look like whenclients come to see you?
You know, I, I imagine there'sa whole range of grief or trauma
that they've experienced thatyou're helping them work through
.
What are some of those examples?
What does that look like?
Lisa Heacock (09:24):
Yeah, I think the most important thing to
understand is that grief comesin many different forms of loss,
so there's a lot of differenttypes of losses.
It's not just the loss of aloved one through death, is it?
I mean there's divorce,parental alienation, so one
(09:45):
parent is pitting the childrenagainst and using them as a tool
against the other parent, whichcan be heartbreaking.
And there are people who cometo me who don't really
understand that the grief orloss that they're experiencing
(10:05):
is connected to how they'refeeling.
So they might come to me forlife coaching and as we start to
talk about areas where theyfeel stuck or where they're
really at a crossroads orthey're not really quite sure
who they are and what makes themtick, and you start to look
back.
Maybe they were a rugby playerand they had an injury and that
(10:28):
stopped.
There's a huge loss andidentity and all of that wrapped
in there.
Nika Lawrie (10:33):
I was going to say that I've been through some
pretty major traumas and loss,but one of the hardest ones for
me was leaving a career that I'dbeen in for a long time and I
left.
It was a very you know, I choseto leave, I gave my notice and
quit the job, but I had workedthere for a long time, you know,
in the space it was kind of animportant role, like I get.
(10:56):
You know, anybody can do anyjob kind of thing, so it's not
like that, but it was kind of animportant role and it took me
years to make peace with theloss of that identity and really
figure out who I am on my ownoutside of that.
And that was actually, you know, compared to some of the other
traumas I've been through, itwas kind of a no, not you know,
it was kind of this minimalthing, but it really had a
(11:18):
massive impact on my life.
I think people-.
Lisa Heacock (11:21):
Absolutely, yes, absolutely, and I think that's
such an important messagebecause it's one of those
ambiguous griefs.
It's one of those ones whereit's like there's not really
necessarily anything to attack.
You hadn't buried anyone Rightand so and also kind of
disenfranchised grief, meaning,like people around you are like
(11:43):
what, what's the problem?
Like you quit.
So even you know, I wentthrough a very amicable divorce
about a year after we lost Jack.
You know what it highlightsareas in your life where you're
not happy, where you know and weboth looked at each other and
just went God, life is reallyshort and fragile.
(12:03):
You know divorce is.
There's still loss there.
There's still you know ahistory of nearly 30 years.
Still, you know a history ofnearly 30 years.
And yet people are like, well,they didn't say this to me, but
you know people might think well, you left, you guys decided to
do it Like you chose to leaveyour career.
That doesn't mean that there'snot pain and loss there.
Nika Lawrie (12:26):
Absolutely, yeah for sure.
So when, when people come to,you know either, for let's do
kind of life coaching first andthen we'll separate grief,
because I think it's kind ofthey go together but kind of two
different pockets.
So when somebody comes to forlife coaching, say they feel
stuck in a you know, maybe stuckin moving their career forward
(12:50):
or a relationship, what are someof the kind of basic tools that
you help them to maybe kind ofget unstuck, to think
differently, to kind of reset,if that makes sense.
Lisa Heacock (13:01):
Yeah, so there's a lot of mindset reset isn't
there?
Yeah, but one of the very corethings that I do with clients
know, when I talk about it it'salmost like you can see people
going like what, but when youget it and you go through the
process is literallylife-changing.
So we really focus at thefoundation core of their values.
(13:27):
What are their core values?
You know, if you've been incorporate world, they'll go
here's our core values, here'sour mission statement.
Right, you need to buy intothat.
And you go yeah, whatever,there's no attachment to it.
But then you ask someone whatare your personal, your five
non-negotiable core values?
(13:48):
Most people have no idea whatthat is.
Nika Lawrie (13:51):
And it's actually kind of emotional and difficult
when you start to think about itto really try to figure out
what those are too yeah.
Lisa Heacock (13:58):
Yes.
So we take them through aprocess of this and you know,
this can be a couple sessions ofjust working through and
narrowing down that, becausethen we start going, aha, these
are courses, other values, butthese are your non-negotiables.
And when you're living out ofalignment in that, that's why
(14:19):
you feel what you're feeling, orthat's why when someone says
something, you respond waydifferently than others because
they're stepping all over yourvalues.
So we want to get in alignment.
So it's really more aboutfiguring out who they are at the
very core, their authentic self, you know, instead of using
(14:40):
that word.
So we hear it a lot, butthere's, there's value to that,
and so that is one of the veryfirst things.
And I always say, like, if youare feeling stuck, that is like
a screaming siren to say move.
Nika Lawrie (14:56):
Yeah.
Lisa Heacock (14:57):
Like you need to move.
It doesn't mean you need toliterally move from you know
countries or cities, or you needto take some incremental steps,
and I always say incrementalsteps lead to monumental change.
So just the incremental stepsand it is.
It is, it is screaming at youdo something.
Nika Lawrie (15:17):
Yeah, absolutely, and I take action.
I get I, you know, my heartbreaks cause I.
I work with women all the timeand and I see them feel stuck in
their health, you know issuesthey've dealt with a chronic
disease for a while or they'vebeen in an unhealthy
relationship which leads tostress and those kinds of things
(15:39):
that then causes other healthissues, and so often it's like
the answer is I just feel stuck,I don't know what to do, and so
I think, helping them reallystart to think about what it is
they actually want, and thenhelping them take those little
baby steps towards thatdirection and that direction,
what I found personally is thatas I start taking those baby
(16:01):
steps in the direction thatfeels right to me, the vision
becomes clearer and clearer andclearer as you kind of walk down
that path.
Lisa Heacock (16:10):
Totally agree.
I always say to them it's likethis ball of string in your head
right and like you have no idea.
If you pull it's going to justall unravel.
So what I want to do is just,you know, having a third party
person who's not emotionallyattached can kind of help pull
that string.
And then, like you said, itbecomes more and more and more
(16:31):
clear as you go down the road.
I think I don't know if youexperienced this, but I find
that some individuals, or a lotof clients, just really don't
trust their intuition, their gut, they don't trust themselves to
make that decision.
Nika Lawrie (16:48):
I think what I've seen is that they almost a
disconnect, like they almostdon't feel like they are
connected to themselves anymore.
You know, I saw this kind of aweird way to describe it, but I
saw a picture once of it was.
It was a man that I think.
He was like four or 500 pounds,very overweight, and it was an
(17:09):
x-ray of his body and you couldsee the very thin, tiny skeleton
inside and then all this otherkind of skin and fat and stuff
around the skeleton and thetakeaway that I felt with it is
like you can't even see who thatperson is.
And I'm not trying to take awayfrom that person at all, but
(17:31):
like the disconnect that youwould have from like who you are
at the core and so reallyfiguring out how to connect with
yourself again so that you cantrust your intuition and have
that conversation and you knowand it's I think a lot of people
really struggle with justhearing what the internal voice
is saying to themselves.
(17:51):
I hope that makes sense?
Lisa Heacock (17:52):
Yeah, absolutely, and that is, you know I.
Each person is different,aren't they?
And so they come with differentviewpoints, different mindset,
different experiences, differenttraumas, different.
So what works for one doesn'tnecessarily work for another.
(18:13):
Right, but when you kind ofgeneralize, you're right, it's
this disconnect and or like, ohwell, I've made that decision
and look where it got me and sotherefore I can't trust anything
because it's just wrong.
And so we start trying to buildup their confidence and their
courage and their intuition aswell.
(18:34):
And it really is about you know, it's so beautiful, isn't it?
When they start to, when peoplestart to and I feel like it did
this for me personally, so thisis very personal is that you
start to figure out who you are,what you want, what you desire,
what you deserve, what you want, what you desire, what you
(18:55):
deserve.
Then you start to go down thatroad and you literally like,
step into your power and youdon't apologize.
Then this is who I am.
I don't have, I don't have toshrink for anyone, I don't have
to apologize.
It's just super empowering, andso I love watching the
transition.
So you're right, they'll do,they'll come for life coaching.
We'd say 80% of clients I haveare life coaching.
(19:18):
There may be some grief wrappedin there.
Like you said, they kind of cango hand in hand, but that's not
necessarily what they firstcome for.
Nika Lawrie (19:29):
Yeah, I think so often, you know, I have people
come to me for health coaching,kind of similar to that.
You know they want to gethealthy, they're struggling with
something, they want to loseweight, whatever it is.
But then when you start to peelback all the layers and really
start to work with them and talkto them, so often it's, you
know, a traumatic event thatthey haven't processed or worked
(19:49):
through.
It's a life changing, you know,like loss of identity, those
kinds of things.
It's a loss of a loved one.
It's, you know, childhoodtrauma that caused them to start
doing things.
And what happens is that, inorder to manage the struggle
that comes from that trauma,they start to do kind of
(20:11):
self-comforting habits androutines that aren't necessarily
healthy for them and they getso accustomed to that safety,
that comfort, that they eat theunhealthy foods or you know, the
unhealthy habit routine.
We still really have to starttalking about some of the other
stuff that goes on, some of theother you know internal life
(20:41):
struggles that they're having.
Lisa Heacock (20:43):
Yeah, I mean, there's a real root cause to the
way we behave or think or ourhabits or and our behaviors and
our actions.
So there's usually always aroot cause to that, isn't there?
Yeah?
Nika Lawrie (20:59):
So when you have a client that comes to you, you
start working with them as thelife coach and then you start to
identify some of these griefissues.
What are some of the tools ormodalities that you maybe use to
help them start to process andwork through that grief?
Lisa Heacock (21:15):
I think it is an interesting process because you
certainly don't want to just belike, hey, you're grieving this
loss, like there's this kind ofself-awareness, but also I don't
want to push someone where theyaren't ready to go.
I'm not a therapist and I soeither, you know, if they do end
(21:37):
up needing therapy orcounseling, I will pass them
along and say, listen, youshould probably do that, and
some, some clients who do bothcoaching and therapy at the same
time.
But if it is that grief thatthey're now starting to
recognize that it is, first, Ithink one of the most important
(22:02):
things is giving them a safespace to be able to say and feel
and say anything.
You know you can't say to yourfriends or your family or
somebody because you're afraidof their emotions.
You have to carry theiremotions as well as yours, right
?
So or you feel like you do, soit is about creating that safe
space where they can just shareanything, yeah.
(22:24):
And then really, it's aboutvalidating those feelings Like
no, you're not crazy, you're notbroken, you're grieving, like
this grieving this is grief.
And so some of the tools that Iwould have them do after
they've done these things, wherethey're actually speaking is
(22:47):
sometimes they need to do somejournaling and just writing,
even if they're not a journalerI hate journaling, but I will,
I'll type.
So I'll kind of like I'll startwriting something creative that
they can do and or likemeditation, we need to calm
their nervous system.
So we want to regulate theirnervous system.
(23:09):
So we I talk to people abouttheir the five senses method.
I mean, I don't think that'sthe name of it, I just made that
up, but it is where you'redealing with trauma or worry
from the past.
You're fearful of the future,You're worrying in the future
(23:30):
that we want to bring you intothe moment and calm your nervous
system.
So all of the things thateverybody talks about by
exercising and eating right andall of those things.
But I always say you know, gooutside, what do you hear, what
do you see?
Maybe you're having a cup oftea or drinking water.
(23:51):
But use some of those senses andit is impossible to think about
your past and think about thefuture when you're doing that
exercise, because it just bringsyou into the moment and that
will bring their nervous systemdown.
(24:12):
The cortisol is probablyshooting through their system,
especially once they startrecognizing that this is grief,
because all those emotions startcoming up.
So that is one of the things Iwant to make sure we calm their
nervous systems.
There's all different tools andstuff and I think it really
just depends.
I kind of use my intuitionabout what's best for this
(24:33):
client right now, like, what dothey need right now?
Nika Lawrie (24:38):
Yeah, definitely Are there.
Even you've already kind ofgiven a few examples.
But are there some things thatpeople can do, kind of self-care
strategies almost, that theycan start to do?
Let me step back.
I know when I was going througha traumatic event, you actually
said something that was reallyprofound for me when I learned
it a few years ago was I'm notbroken, I'm not crazy, I'm
(25:02):
grieving.
Like that was so key for me tolearn and understand, and once I
learned that I was able to kindof take the pressure off myself
or not feel so guilty maybe Idon't know if guilt is the right
word, but I definitely feltlike it was my fault or I was
broken.
But when I was able tounderstand that, I was able to
(25:23):
start taking care of myself,doing things kind of differently
like you were talking about,you know, meditating or going
outside, those kind of things.
Are there any specificself-care strategies that you
would recommend that kind ofhelp kind of break that sadness
routine or or kind of break theeveryday cycle?
Lisa Heacock (25:41):
Yeah, I it's.
It is one of those things where, depending on the loss and
depending on if you're in thisacute grief so if it's right now
and it's fresh, sometimes it'sjust like I said, it's hard to
even get up and brush your teethand you're definitely not going
to the grocery store and you'recertainly not cooking.
So it depends on where you arein the process and how you're
(26:09):
experiencing this loss.
But I think that that isabsolutely key is to understand
that you are grieving.
Grief and guilt are like amarried couple.
They go hand in hand.
So when you were talking aboutguilt, like it usually follows,
like it's there, and so it is.
You know, the the again, it'sthis, this language that we use,
(26:31):
but it's there for a reason.
So, being kind to yourself andallowing yourself to just be,
and if that is just laying onthe couch at that moment, then
not to feel bad about that.
The other thing that I think isvery important that we kind of
(26:53):
because we can sit there and gooh, you should, you know, yes,
exercise, eat right, you knowdrink your water, go for walks,
get out into nature, meditate,like all those things we know.
But one of the things thathelped me personally was
surrounding myself withsupportive, loving, you know,
(27:15):
life breathing, not energydraining, vampire friends yeah
Right.
That to me was like I had mypeople and anybody else.
I didn't have any energy togive to anybody, and if they
were draining my energy, I hadto protect my energy at all
(27:36):
costs, and so, therefore, Ieither put them on the shelf
just for a while, like they'renot I don't despise them, I just
they just drain my energy or Ikick them off the shelf, like I
really don't like, like what are.
Who are you know?
Who are you we?
You no longer serve me, I'm nothere to serve you, kind of.
(27:58):
You know, toxic relationships Iwould literally have to get rid
.
Nika Lawrie (28:04):
Yeah.
Lisa Heacock (28:04):
And it was the best thing that I did and that,
to me, is one of the bestself-care that you can do.
Nika Lawrie (28:14):
I mean, I think that's a good self-care at any
time, not just grief for sure.
Yes, true, 100%.
Yeah, it's really understandingkind of having those
self-boundaries, you know, andit's okay to have those people
in your life, but reallyunderstand the time and place to
kind of keep them in, if thatmakes sense.
Lisa Heacock (28:33):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think when we're talking
about grief or loss of any kindand you're really in this dark
place, it becomes again, like Isaid, within.
When you are in that place,it's almost like this light is
just shining on these areas.
(28:54):
If you're self-aware, it'sshining on the areas that you
may not have seen before, but itcertainly highlights it and it
feels even heavier, you know, ora toxic relationship or a toxic
friendship, or an energydrainer, or it just becomes even
more obvious.
Nika Lawrie (29:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So this kind of answered sortof a question that I was going
to ask.
But you know, one of the thingsI hear a lot around it's almost
like a cultural thing aroundgrieving and especially when
it's fresh is there's anexpectation that people aren't
supposed to feel any joy orlaughter when they're going
(29:37):
through the grieving process.
And then two people tend tofeel like, well, it's been a
year, you should be over thegrief.
So the question is is it okayto feel joy and laughter,
especially early on, when youare grieving?
And then, is there a settimeframe to you know the
grieving process, right?
Lisa Heacock (29:59):
Well, I mean, there are no rules.
And I think we love to putrules and like put things in
little boxes and put a littlebow on it and make it all pretty
.
And it's just not, there justisn't any rules to it.
It and make it all pretty, andit's just not, there just isn't
any rules to it.
So I'll answer your lastquestion Absolutely no timeframe
whatsoever.
I mean, I say to people like,how long will you be grieving
(30:20):
Well, how long will they be dead?
I mean, that is how long I'llbe grieving them.
Nika Lawrie (30:24):
That's a great way.
Lisa Heacock (30:27):
But will I be suffering?
So is there a differencebetween grieving and missing
someone and suffering?
That's a difference.
In the acute grief there's alot of suffering, right, and
there's no timeframe on that,absolutely 100%.
(31:12):
You can still have laughter,you can still have great
relationships, you can still behappy in certain areas, and
expert grief experts and he said, you can fully live and fully
grieve at the same time.
Those two things can coexist.
And so sometimes there's thatguilt that comes up like, oh,
I'm laughing, oh I shouldn't belike.
But for me personally,especially when it came to my
(31:34):
parents, I know you're supposedto bury your parents Like this
is the way it's supposed to work.
You parents die first.
You'd never you shouldn't beburying your children.
That just is out of order.
Um, but you know, I wasn't even50 years old.
You know what I mean.
And when you still lose yourparents it doesn't matter what
(31:55):
age they're, like your mom anddad and there's your DNA, right
there's a huge loss.
So not to minimize that and Ithink that that's important.
But I always thought, like,what would my mom like?
I could hear my dad going no,don't cry for us.
You almost hear him cheeringfor you, and because I had great
(32:16):
parents, I'm fortunate in that,and so I kind of think, well,
would they want me to be in mybed all the time?
It's such a deep suffering.
It does not mean I wasn't fullygrieving, but I would watch
something funny on Netflix justto laugh, just to get that
(32:39):
laughter and spend time withfriends and family.
My girls always make me laughand, to be fair, even after Jack
passed and it was just horrific, this is, I would say, it was
New Year's Eve, so he passedaway on the 30th of November
2019.
So on New Year's Eve in 2019, amonth later, his parents had a
(33:02):
house full of all the kids thatall grew up you know, they're
all adults now and we weretelling stories about Jack and
laughing and they were havinggreat laughs about the funny
things that he did, and that, tome, was a beautiful example of
fully living and fully grievingat the same time, and I truly
(33:27):
believe that you have to goafter it, like it doesn't come
naturally.
You have to go seek it out andyou have to, whatever it is that
will help you find some joy andpeace, you know, during a
really dumpster fire of a time.
Nika Lawrie (33:47):
Absolutely yeah.
Are there things that we can doas, say, like the partner or
the friend or, you know, theloved one of somebody who is
grieving.
What are, what are, some of thethings that we can do to
support them?
Lisa Heacock (34:00):
Uh, you know I love this question.
It was like my favoritequestion because we are, so we
are grief illiterate, but Ithink we're getting a lot better
.
Um, and grief and loss of anytype, especially the loss of
loved ones, like it's going tohappen, it's just a part of life
, is death right?
And I wrote this kind of guide,free guide, of how to support
(34:27):
loved ones who are grieving anytype of loss.
But if we're talking about lossof loved ones who've passed
away, some of the kind of do'sand don'ts, really just as real
practical stuff.
I mean don't say you knowthey're in a better place.
Don't say time heals all wounds, you know.
(34:47):
Don't say it's been a year, youknow, like hello, or like just
wait for a year and then you'llbe fine, like just don't, just
don't, don't say anything.
I think we're, we feel reallyuncomfortable when people are
hurting and we, to be fair tothe friends and family, they
don't want you to hurt, sothey're trying to have you not
(35:08):
hurt, but you will and you areand it's not going to change.
So how can we be more helpfulthan hurtful, right?
Yep, exactly.
So I always say think of thethings that you do every day.
So you do the dishes.
If you have children, you takeyour children to school, or
(35:31):
you've got dogs that need towalk, you have to go to the
grocery store every so often.
These clean cook all the thingsthat you would normally do
without even thinking about.
It is nearly next to impossiblefor someone who is in acute
(35:51):
grief.
Yeah, so if your friend has losttheir dad or their partner or
whatever they've got, they'regoing through such a difficult
time, even in a divorce.
Let's say, I'm going to thegrocery store to get some milk,
do you like, do you needanything to get some milk?
(36:14):
Did you like, do you needanything?
And I was talking to a guest onmy show and she said she had
lost a son.
And she said for a year and ahalf her friend went to the
grocery store every week for herA year and a half.
And the reason was is becausewhen you go up to the Castro,
just especially in the state,how are you today?
You know, and it's like, well,I'm like really, it's awful,
(36:37):
like you're not going to you'renot going to talk about it and
you don't want to hear thatquestion.
Yeah, so I think that that'salso a really.
Those are just some practicalthings.
But also in that question.
So some people like how are you?
They know that you're not okayand they don't know how or what
to say.
So I would normally you couldsay to people like I know you're
(37:02):
not okay, but like where areyou at?
Like even scales, sometimeslike 10's, a really hideous day,
you know.
One is like I'm, I mean, I'mhere, you know, and and kind of
where are you in that?
Um, and then it's, that's, it'sthe standard, like you don't
(37:23):
have to actually say anythingyeah, you just kind of be there.
Nika Lawrie (37:31):
Let them know you're here, yeah.
Lisa Heacock (37:33):
Yeah, and it does depend on the relationship.
So you know, I mean, if you'renot super close, you don't need
to be at the doorstep.
Maybe they don't want that,right, but so it does depend on
the relationship.
But I always say to people likeyou can send a message and just
start out.
This is what I always say Startout with.
(37:53):
You, do not need to respond,because they're probably getting
loads of messages, whichhopefully they are, because
people love them.
But it's pressure.
Now I need to respond, becausethen they're going to think I
don't like them and they don'tneed that.
So you don't need to respond.
I just want you to know I'mhere.
If you need anything, I'm hereand, like you're on the
peripheral, you're there andthey know it.
(38:15):
And every so often, sendingthem messages, the worst thing
that you can do is ignore them.
Nika Lawrie (38:24):
Yeah, I have a.
I have a dear friend who losther brother a couple of years
ago.
Who lost her brother a coupleyears ago, and she said one of
the hardest parts was that manyof the people in her circle
didn't know how to deal with hergrief, so they just ignored her
or stopped talking to her.
And she said that was one ofthe most painful, detrimental
(38:45):
parts of the whole process.
Lisa Heacock (38:47):
Yeah, and that I hear a lot of.
I didn't really have that withmy core people but, like for me,
that to me is just notacceptable.
Nika Lawrie (39:17):
Yeah.
Lisa Heacock (39:17):
So that is the.
That is one of the worst thingsthat people can do.
So you don't know what to say,say, I have no idea what to say.
I'm just going to sit here withyou and you know, let you cry
and I'll cry with you and we'lljust have a cry fest.
Nika Lawrie (39:33):
I mean sometimes it's OK to say nothing, Exactly.
That is the best thing you know, like yeah just, they just need
to know that you're there.
Yeah, that's all care.
Lisa Heacock (39:44):
Mm, hmm, yeah.
Nika Lawrie (39:45):
Yeah, lisa, I have one more question for you, but
before I get to that, can youtell me where can people connect
with you?
How can we, you know, eitherfor life coaching or grief
support?
Where are you online?
How can people find you?
Lisa Heacock (40:00):
Yeah, I mean, my website is
holisticlifecoachingorguk.
I am on Instagram at holisticunderscore coach, underscore
Lisa.
I am on Instagram at holisticunderscore coach, underscore
Lisa, and Facebook is Lisa.
Well, actually it's my maidenname.
Lisa Marie Messicks is wherethey can find me.
(40:22):
I can be found on my website.
It has all that stuff.
Nika Lawrie (40:26):
I'll put everything in the show notes too.
Yeah, great, yeah.
So, lisa, my last question foryou today and you probably kind
of already touched on this butwhat is something kind of game
changing that you've eitherlearned or experienced that you
would like to share with others,to inspire them to live a great
life?
Lisa Heacock (40:47):
Well, you know, I've been I've always kind of
been addicted to personaldevelopment, but for me it truly
is about seeking help.
We're not meant to do this lifealone, and so, whatever that
looks like for the person, dowhatever you need to do is, in a
(41:11):
healthiest way possible, tomove forward.
Grab, grab it everything,anything and everything that you
can, because you're notsupposed to do it alone.
Life is short and fragile andin my view, it's like you better
.
You better live it like.
(41:31):
Grab a hold of it, do whateveryou need to do in order to live
a happy, healthy life that you,you know, desire and you deserve
.
Um, I mean, we're not meant tobe like, miserable we're not,
yeah, yeah, at all at all.
Nika Lawrie (41:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, lisa, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
Thank you for the work thatyou're doing and how you're
supporting other people andreally helping change lives.
I think that's such animportant thing and powerful, so
thank you for both.
I really appreciate it.
Lisa Heacock (42:02):
Well, thanks for having me.
It's been great, absolutely.
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