November 26, 2024 • 54 mins
Dr. Tracy McCarthy challenges the traditional pill-for-symptom model of psychiatry by exploring how functional medicine transforms mental health care. Learn how chronic inflammation, nutrition, and overlooked factors like toxins, mold, and hormone imbalances impact anxiety and depression. Discover actionable steps, from dietary changes and supplements like omega-3s to innovative treatments like TMS and even the microbiome’s role. This episode offers empowering insights and tools to help you achieve a healthier mind and body.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nika Lawrie (00:06):
Welcome to the Inspired with Nika Lawrie
podcast.
Dr Tracy McCarthy, welcome tothe show.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (00:21):
Thank you, Nika.
It's such a pleasure to be here.
Nika Lawrie (00:23):
Yeah, so I'm really excited to get into it with you
.
Today we're going to talk aboutkind of the functional medicine
approach to anxiety anddepression.
I'm sure other things will feedinto that conversation too, as
they always do.
But before we get into that,tell me a little bit about
yourself.
What's your backstory?
How did you go down the path offunctional medicine?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (00:44):
Yeah, I'm happy to.
So I'm a medical doctor and apsychiatrist and when I first
got into medical school I wasreally driven by wanting to
understand why do people getsick, what goes wrong in the
body and then how can we helpthem.
And before that I was anengineer.
I was always like how do thingswork?
It's the same thing.
I wanted to understand this andthe first few years of medical
(01:06):
school were really prettysatisfying that way, learning so
much physiology andpathophysiology.
But then as my trainingprogressed, it became so much
more about matching a symptomcluster to a diagnosis which
that pattern recognition is veryimportant and still very much
what I do but then matching thatdiagnosis to a pill.
It very much became reduced tothat in many ways and my
(01:31):
curiosity that always driven meand asking why, why does this
happen?
It got kind of squashed, like Iwould ask why does somebody get
schizophrenia?
And we don't really know.
End of conversation.
You know what pill are yougoing to give them?
And of course the treatment isimportant.
But I really had this yearningto understand what's driving
things and I got almost kind oftrained out of thinking about it
(01:54):
and fortunately for me later,you know, in my residency but
unrelated to that, I becameinterested and became exposed to
all this literature on chronicinflammation and the links of
nutrition to inflammation andstarted to hear about people
applying this.
You know, started to hear thisterm functional medicine and I
(02:15):
was amazed.
I'm like there are doctors whoare using these tools that I had
begun to learn about andstarted incorporating my own
life and just feeling better indifferent ways, just different
things I'd made and I I franklygot really angry for a while
because I realized, you know, Irealized I thought, well, I
naively thought I was going tolearn everything I needed to
(02:35):
know to help people in medicalschool.
I mean, it's a silly idea now.
But I really did think that andI was like, why didn't I learn
all this stuff that's in theresearch, the nutrition training
is minimal to zero and doesn'tapply.
I mean it's about extremes ofvitamin deficiencies that we
don't see in our culture andthat's about it.
(02:57):
And so I was very disillusioned, I was very angry for a little
while, but I became reallypassionate about the subject
because it was fascinating and Isaid this was why I went into
medicine what is going wrong inthe body.
So then I started to getconnected to the Institute for
Functional Medicine, starteddoing trainings there and, gosh,
I loved that because I was like, wow, yeah, this is why I'm
(03:19):
here.
This is that root cause, thisis that detective work that I
want to be doing.
So I did all my training there,became certified as a
practitioner and in the processrealized, hey, if I want to
actually help people this way, Ican't continue to just be doing
inpatient hospital-basedpsychiatry because it's not
(03:39):
going to work in that system.
I need to open a practice.
Had to figure that out.
But I had so much wonderfulexperiences along the way of
first working with people withtheir nutrition and seeing
results, and then working moreon their digestion and then
starting to address toxins andhormones and, of course, the
microbiome and just seeing moreand more amazing results.
(04:00):
And the best part about it ispeople being empowered to really
help themselves.
It's much more of a partnership.
It's not like the doctor tellsyou to take this pill and that's
it.
And they you know people, mypatients before you know that
when I was getting frustratedwith this model of a pill for an
ill, they were frustrated oftentoo Like do I have the
(04:20):
testification for the rest of mylife, or hey, you know what's
driving these symptoms.
Is this pill actually fixingthat or what else can I do?
And then also, maybe themedication's partially treating
it, but these have side effectsand they still have remaining
symptoms.
That's very common.
So all these scenarios, youknow, I felt like we could not
address in that conventionalmodel.
Nika Lawrie (04:41):
Yeah.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (04:42):
So I feel now extremely fortunate and
grateful to have the practice Ido, where I get to partner with
people in this deep way and go,you know, get down into the
roots and figure out what thepieces are and empower them, and
it's just really satisfying.
Nika Lawrie (04:57):
I love your story.
I felt bad.
I laughed a moment ago when yousaid that you got really angry.
I didn't mean to laugh at thefact that you were angry, but
it's.
You know, I hear the story sooften and you know, and it's so
frustrating when we, when werealize that there's all these
other tools and processes andthings that we can do that are
(05:20):
natural.
Really, you know, it's a it'san almost simpler approach to
health, but it's not taught tomost of our doctors, it's not
taught to our psychiatrists, ourtherapists, it's not taught in
our culture, and it's sofrustrating when you learn about
it because you're just like,why are we hitting our heads
(05:40):
against the wall over and overagain and getting nowhere when
there's all these other optionsout here that we can be helping
people with?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (05:47):
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, I feel like probablythat disillusionment, getting
mad thing is just like almostlike a critical step, because I
think, you know, I really likeforcibly had my mind opened.
It feels like, and now I'mgrateful every day that that
happened, because now there's somuch I keep learning and it
just there's no end to thelearning and it's wonderful.
(06:09):
Yeah, and I think too, likewhen you talk about it's just
not taught, it's just the modelthe acute care really comes from
, I think, the early 1900s, andlike figuring out what you know,
for example, what causedtuberculosis and then what pill
could treat that, and that'scritically important.
But it left us with this sortof idea that we're always
(06:31):
looking for the single cause forsomething and then looking for
the magic bullet for that, andthat is not how chronic symptoms
work at all.
And total lack of understandingthat there's going to and those
multiple factors aren't the samein each person.
Everyone's got their kind ofcluster of contributing factors
that manifest then as depressionor as autoimmune disease or as
(06:56):
gut issues, and we really haveto have a different paradigm of
looking for pieces and, like yousaid so often, it's the natural
things that end up being thebest tools.
Nika Lawrie (07:07):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I, I feel so often that we
almost need, you know, threesets of a medical system where
you have, you know, there thereis a need for the expertise, and
in different parts of the body,and there is a need for
prescriptions and medication insome places, right, but then you
(07:27):
need this whole section that ispreventative and the approach
of how do we look at the fullbody, the full system?
Right, like you know, our brainisn't working separately from
our lungs, from our heart.
They're all working together ina system, right, and so, like,
how do we approach it from that?
And then I think we also needthat really, like, let's take it
(07:48):
back to nature.
Like nature figured out how tomake us all work.
Let's use the tools that it'sproviding to help us function at
our best.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (07:55):
You know I couldn't agree more.
I mean, I think to that lastpoint.
It's like what can we learnfrom looking at how we evolved?
You know, what might our DNA beexpecting in terms of our
environment that we can harnessto help ourselves feel better?
And you know, I do want tostress too I'm absolutely not
talking about throwing out thebaby with the bathwater.
(08:16):
Like you know, if I'm in amotor vehicle accident, please
take me to the local traumacenter, absolutely yeah, as a
functional medicine doctor, Iabsolutely do use medications
because these are tools.
I'm agnostic about tools.
I want to know what's a goodtool, what's going to be safe
and helpful.
And there's a wide range.
And lots of those areinterventions, lots of those are
(08:37):
supplements or herbs.
Some of those are medications,right, and with this approach,
it's really about figuring outwhat those underlying imbalances
are and then using the besttools to help correct them.
Nika Lawrie (08:50):
Yeah, absolutely Totally.
Building off of this, let's talkabout the anxiety and
depression kind of piece of that, because so often in interviews
I've done, you know, we talkabout the functional medicine
approach to kind of overallhealth or different elements, a
lot of like autoimmune diseaseor different I don't know things
(09:12):
that women are struggling with,often like hormone imbalance,
but we haven't really touched alot on anxiety and depression
and I think it's so key tounderstand how that is linked to
how the rest of our body isfunctioning, understand how that
is linked to how the rest ofour body is functioning.
You know we were talking aboutthe separation of, you know, the
brain versus the heart, versusthe lungs, and the reality is
the brain is connected to therest of the body and so it's
(09:34):
probably going to be impacted bythings.
So I want to kind of get intothat.
But before we, before we reallyjump down that rabbit hole, can
you just kind of give a baseexplanation of like anxiety and
depression and they're similarbut they're also kind of two
different things and what arekind of some of the signs or
symptoms people might beexperiencing, just as a general
(09:57):
concept?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (09:58):
Yeah, okay, great question.
So you know, we have inpsychiatry the Diagnostic and
Statistics Manual, which we, youknow, is our official guide for
labeling things with the actualdiagnosis, which is really just
a bunch of people agreeing Like, right now, this is the
consensus that these symptomsequal, this label.
But the truth is all thesethings exist on a spectrum right
(10:20):
, spectrum right.
So anxiety can be, you know,anything from you know, kind of
an excessive degree of worry,feeling, you know, preoccupied,
stressed all the time aboutdifferent outcomes.
You know, to the point thatit's like usually the issue is
how much is it impairing you?
But it can be impairing yourhappiness, you know it can be
(10:42):
that simple, be impairing yourhappiness.
You know it can be that simple.
Two, all the way to fulldiagnoses, like you know
generalized anxiety disorder,panic disorder, obsessive
compulsive disorder, thesedifferent spectrum of anxiety
disorders.
And then with depression, it'smore about there's sort of two
(11:03):
sides to the depression cointhat it can show up as, like you
know, in my training, it's likethere's nine symptoms.
You have to have five of them,but, right, it's going to be
like depressed mood, so sadness,for example, um, anhedonia,
which is like lack of enjoymentof things you normally would
enjoy.
Sleep disturbance is part of it, but for some folks it's
(11:24):
sleeping too much, for others itit's not sleep.
There can be problems withconcentration, there can be
suicidal thoughts, but don'thave to have those.
I can go on.
But it's just like they are twodifferent entities but they
coexist often and they can feedeach other.
Often.
I've definitely met people whothey had an anxiety sort of
secondary to their depression,because it was like, well, why
(11:49):
am I feeling so bad?
Why?
And they create additionalworry and then the anxiety, when
it's wrong, it can also lead todepression as well.
So I would often say they'retwo sides of the same coin, but
there are different thingsdriving them.
Often there are common roots aswell from the functional
medicine point of view of, like,what are the physical body
(12:11):
drivers and I'm talking aboutbeyond the social factors that
we might be much more aware of,which are just as important.
But the overlooked physicalparts is kind of probably what
we're going to talk more abouttoday.
But they can be not quite thesame in anxiety and depression.
Nika Lawrie (12:28):
Can you talk a little bit about the separation
and approach that maybefunctional medicine might take
versus traditional medicine intreating these issues?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (12:41):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Functional medicine again seeksto ask why.
Why is this happening?
And you know that's certainlysomething someone would do in
therapy, which is a veryimportant tool for either
(13:03):
depression or anxiety, and I'm ahuge fan of therapy and lots of
different types of therapiescan be helpful.
Also, why in the body?
Not just why, like in your life, not just what are the
stressors, what was the trauma,it's also like what's the
nutrient deficiency, for example?
What's the infection?
So, with the conventional model, you go to your doctor, either
your primary care doctor or, ifit's a more severe case, you may
be referred to a psychiatristand your options are going to be
therapy and medication.
(13:23):
It's just about the end of thelist.
Now there are some othertreatments, like TMS, which is a
transcranial magneticstimulation which can be
effective for depression, orsome other applications, and
there's even ECT, but these areless common, right, the majority
of people are going to beoffered medication and be
(13:44):
recommended to do a therapywhich they often don't have good
access to.
But and the medications we havefor depression and anxiety
aren't great.
Yeah, part of the problem, youknow I said earlier I use, you
know, medications as tools,absolutely.
But I have certain medicationsthat I think are really
effective and safe and thenother ones that are kind of, you
(14:05):
know, that are really tough touse.
They have lots of side effects,and then there's some that just
don't work that great andunfortunately our
antidepressants fall into thatlast category.
Studies show they're, you know,pretty similar, slightly better
than placebo.
It's not saying much at all andyou know they definitely come
with side effects.
And anxiety medications, youknow there's some of them are
(14:28):
very, very habit forming.
You can become on them and Imean that's even true of
antidepressants that you can be,you develop, you know, your
body, your brain adapts and thenyou can have a withdrawal or
discontinuation syndrome whenyou stop them.
So you're not without issue.
Again, sometimes it's the righttool to use.
(14:49):
I'm not judging that, I am justsaying that, like, I want us to
have good tools and useeverything available to us.
So the functional medicinemodel is gonna look at, ask why,
first of all, and try to usethe best tools to correct the
problem.
And if someone needs, like,acute stabilization and
medication is the answer forthat, then that's appropriate.
But that then gives you time togo.
(15:09):
Okay, what's going on with theinflammation that's driving this
?
Where's that coming from?
That's a big difference, right,there is just going deep into
why and looking at the body andrecognizing how it's connected.
I mean, we were laughing aboutthis earlier, right, because
you're like, yes, the brain isactually connected.
When I was first learningfunctional medicine, I was
(15:32):
actually really I was kind ofworried.
I was like, does this apply tomental health?
Because I didn't see anyexamples of it and I was so
conditioned about this siloedmodel that we're in, right, like
there's cardiology over here,there's gastroenterology over
here.
I mean, even when you thinkabout the brain, there's
neurology and psychiatry.
Right, it's like you're crazywhen you think about it.
(15:53):
So I had seen examples ofautoimmune disease and gut stuff
getting better with functionalmedicine.
But I was not sure about mentalhealth until I finally started
to see some examples of peopleusing that and that was very
inspiring to me.
And then, as I started to learnthe connection with
inflammation and depression, itreally became clear.
And I'm at the point now in myfunctional medicine career where
(16:15):
you know we joke, everythingcauses everything.
I mean, depending on the rightperson.
It's kind of true.
Nika Lawrie (16:25):
Yeah, absolutely so .
You mentioned inflammation acouple of times.
Can you talk about what theconnection is between kind of
our mental health andinflammation throughout the body
?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (16:35):
Yeah, inflammation is really the
common pathway that symptoms endup occurring from.
So there's all manner of thingsthat can cause inflammation,
and inflammation is your body'sresponse to an infection or an
injury, some kind of trigger,and it's not a bad thing.
We absolutely need acuteinflammation, short-term,
(16:58):
appropriate inflammation, torecover.
So if you get an infection oryou sprain your ankle or
something, that's the immunesystem and inflammation mounting
a response to heal your body.
But when there's chronictriggers to that inflammation,
then you've got this sort ofsimmering fire of inflammation
in the body that's going tocause a lot of collateral damage
.
When you're in that mode, youcan't be repairing and restoring
(17:21):
organ reserve and it's thatchronic inflammation that
manifests in all these differentways in our chronic health
conditions, whether it'sdiabetes or psoriasis or
migraines or whatever.
So, yeah, it shows up a lot ofdifferent ways, depends on your
genetics and your environmentand your unique life
(17:45):
circumstances, and it dependssomewhat on what those triggers
are, but inflammation is acommon pathway.
Nika Lawrie (17:51):
What are some of the things that we might be
doing in our life on a dailybasis especially with the kind
of standard American diet thatare triggering inflammation
throughout the body?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (18:01):
Well, the standard American diet is a
great place to start because Iknow why I said it.
Yeah, right, well, it's thelow-hanging fruit, in a way, and
yet sometimes the hardest thingto change, because it's so Just
everywhere it presents Exactly,we're surrounded by it.
But really, a standard Americandiet is high in processed foods
, and why is that a problem?
(18:22):
These processed foods are fullof what we would call industrial
seed oils, like canola oil,soybean oil, these cheap
grain-based oils I mean,vegetable oil is a euphemism for
these these do not come fromvegetables and these are high in
omega-6 fats, and omega-6 fatsare pro-inflammatory.
I tell people they are the gaspedal on the inflammation, as
(18:47):
opposed to the omega-3s, whichis the breaks, yeah, and we
don't have much omega-3 in thediet.
We have tons of omega-6.
So every processed food, everycracker, cookie chip you eat, is
like you look on the back, it'sfried in canola oil, soybean
oil.
These are all full of those.
So that's just like lighterfluid on the inflammation all
the time.
(19:07):
And then the processed carbs inthose are part of the problem as
well, spiking people's bloodsugar.
There's so much I can say aboutthat and the role of blood
sugar and anxiety.
We can talk about that, butjust these carbohydrates that
are really stripped of nutrientsand and they're again mainly
grain based which is a problemlike corn or wheat, and they
(19:30):
also often contain a lot ofpesticides like Roundup.
So these things damage yourmicrobiome and other pesticides
can harm you in other ways orcould be hormone disrupting
chemicals.
So it's like not got a goodstuff for you and it's got a lot
of stuff for you.
That that's the processed foods,right, um, and?
(19:51):
And then people also are noteating healthy fats and they're
not consuming a wide variety ofcolorful vegetables and, um,
often they're not eating enoughprotein.
I see that all the time.
So standard American diet islike high glycemic load, meaning
like spiking your blood sugarall the time, lacking nutrient
(20:12):
density you know just doesn'thave a lot of nutrients and then
very pro inflammatory.
So it's like, and you can lookat it, it's not giving you good
stuff and it's causing a lot oftrouble.
Nika Lawrie (20:30):
I have a question.
So I know, as I had beenstarting to change my diet, I'm
very addicted to sugary drinksLike I love Starbucks and things
, and I've worked past most ofthat.
But then when I talk to clientsI work with or other people
that are asking me questionsabout how to change their diet,
they always talk about thespecific addiction that they
have to some type of food.
Like it's very you know, theydon't want to give.
They're fine changing mostthings, but they don't want to
(20:51):
give up this one thing and it'susually the thing that is
usually the worst for them,because they eat it the most
often, right.
Do you have any advice from thatkind of repetitive habit
addiction perspective of how toovercome those habits?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (21:07):
That's such a great question, and I think it
.
I think there's a lot of toolsand the answer may look
different for different folks.
Sometimes that craving for thatparticular substance the sugary
drink that could be driven bysomething going on in the body
like a fungal overgrowth, yeastovergrowth may really increase
(21:29):
your sugar cravings.
Maybe it's something to do withdopamine balance in your brain
and what that reward is for you.
I like, though, to encouragepeople to do experiments.
So think about cutting this outforever, cause that feels very
depressing and overwhelming, youknow.
But to see how do you feel ifyou take it out for like two
(21:52):
weeks, three weeks, how is yoursleep?
Now?
You know, how is your anxietyLike if the, if the blood sugar
is spiking from these things,there will be people who will
notice, wow, my anxiety droppeda lot when I got rid of it, or
I'm sleeping so much better.
And, gee, I didn't realize Iwas actually sensitive to
caffeine, which is like way morepeople than they realize, right
?
So you know, making these justto just try and see, and I think
(22:17):
a lot of people are willing todo that experiment rather than
like, oh, I have to be deprivedof this thing Once they see the
benefit for themselves.
That really changes the riskreward around it.
And then they usually get moreinterested in finding
alternatives that can fit thebill, like, if it's like you
need a carbonated drink, well,maybe you can drink, you know, a
bubble water of some kind withlemon or something.
(22:38):
Or, you know, have a decafcoffee with some healthy fats
you put in it or something.
There's ways you know to havethese enjoyable rituals that
have to deplete you.
I mean, we help our patientswith that all the time, right?
But yeah, the, the, the cravingthing is real, you know, and
there there can be other toolssometimes, you know, for example
, hypnotherapy.
(22:58):
There's some good resultspeople can get for cravings from
that.
I think I encourage people tostart with the experiment.
See how you'll just try it alittle bit, and then the
awareness begins to grow andthen the motivation begins to
set in.
Nika Lawrie (23:14):
Yeah, I think that it's the momentum piece.
I know for me, one of thethings that I did when I was so,
I used to drink this.
Before I was kind of gettinginto functional medicine and
nutrition, I used to drink aStarbucks drink every day and I
think it.
I mean, it's appalling when Ithink about it now, but it had,
I think, 64 grams of sugar in itand it was like you know, and
(23:37):
it was my breakfast everymorning.
I'd get it on the way to workevery morning, my breakfast
every morning.
I'd get it on the way to workevery morning and for me, I gave
my husband credit, my creditcards.
So I couldn't buy anything for acouple of weeks, like that was
my you know kind of put myselfin credit card jail so that I
couldn't spend the money, andthen I did a timer on my phone
(23:58):
like a day counter, and so Ikind of like you would do for
like AA or something right, yeah, give me some credit yeah
exactly, and you know I'm in thethousands of days now and I
still keep it going because it'sjust a reminder of like how far
I've come.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (24:14):
Yeah, and you can feel so proud of that
and like, yeah, compare back andnow it's not hard.
It was hard at the beginning,you know.
Nika Lawrie (24:19):
Yeah, and when you see those, you know thousands of
days.
You don't want to break thatand go back to zero again so it
can keep your kind of momentumgoing.
I think that momentum is areally big piece.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (24:30):
I would totally agree.
I totally agree and I think youknow for anybody I'm sure you
do this as well but like whenyou are starting to work on
changing the diet, like we don'tstart with the hardest thing,
right, you start easy things andthen at some point we do come
up against that, that that youknow that drink I do every day,
that I have you know it'scausing you trouble you know?
Nika Lawrie (24:57):
Yeah, so you mentioned a minute ago about
like a fungal overgrowth orthings like that.
Can you talk about you know howour gut impacts, like the
gut-brain connection and likehow the functioning of our gut
and the bacteria in our gutreally influences the way our
brain is working and how we'refeeling, our moods throughout
the day too.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (25:15):
Yeah, it's really amazing how powerful that
connection is and I think wejust are really still scraping
the surface of what we know.
That I mean the research.
Every day there's new papersabout gut microbiome and the
connection to any disease, anyillness, but so much mental
health is connected to this.
So there's several ways thatthe gut impacts our brain.
(25:36):
So first of all, there's thenutrition and digestion piece,
the nutrient absorption.
If we're not getting thesenutrients into the body, even if
we're eating them, if they'renot getting absorbed, then we're
not benefiting from them.
So the gut has a huge roleright there.
And if we don't have these keynutrients, I mean, why do they
matter for the brain?
(25:56):
Well, this is what things arebuilt out of and how they're on.
So I tell people like you know,if the hardware isn't working
like you're not going to, evenif you try to change your
thoughts the software likeyou're going to have trouble.
You have to have healthyneurons.
So you need your amino acidsfrom those from your proteins,
(26:17):
and you'll be able to breakprotein down and get those
because you makeneurotransmitters out of right.
You need your healthy fats.
The brain is like largely fat.
Yeah, a lot of that right andimportant hormones that are
impacting how we feel are madefrom fat as well.
So there's that piece.
And then you mentioned thebacteria, so the microbiome,
(26:37):
that's all the bugs living inand on us, right, mostly
bacteria, but also viruses andsometimes even protozoa or, you
know, helminths.
Historically we usually hadsome parasite load.
It's interesting it's changed.
But, like how we and fungus, soyeasts as well, and the
(27:00):
majority of this microbiome isin the gut and the majority
actually in the large intestine.
And these bacteria primarilyI'll talk about do a huge number
of jobs for us.
They're breaking down all kindsof things and freeing up the
nutrients and antioxidants.
They they'll even likesequester medications.
They do really interestingthings.
(27:21):
They do a lot of detoxification, um, so we and we co-evolved
with this.
We're supposed to have this.
Basically, a whole other organof bacteria there weighs about
two to three pounds.
If you were to add up all thebacteria doing all this work for
us and we wanted doing theright jobs and when we don't
have the right balance ofbacteria, then they can't do
those good things for us.
(27:41):
They can't make these wonderfulthings called short chain fatty
acids, that fueling a wholehealthy microbiome and helping
our whole system.
They can't make the right kindof anti-inflammatory messengers
called cytokines that arehelping calm inflammation.
They can't make someneurotransmitters like they make
GABA, which is the calmingneurotransmitter right.
(28:03):
So if you don't have them, theycan't do it.
And then if you've gotovergrowth of the wrong kind of
bacteria, they're producing allkinds of inflammatory messengers
and they are blockingdetoxification in certain ways.
So that balance really, reallymatters.
I mentioned that they canproduce these different
compounds.
(28:24):
These get absorbed into theblood, travel through the body,
go to the brain like theneurotransmitters I mentioned,
but they also, amazingly, cantravel up the vagus nerve rain
into our abdomen and our chestand innervates all our organs
there and is in charge ofdigestion and in charge of
(28:46):
slowing your heart rate, slowingyour breathing.
It is actually amazing to methat these chemicals can do this
thing called chemotaxis andtravel up the nerve.
So there's more than one waythat they're getting to your
brain and impacting it andthey're supposed to be.
Like I said, we co-evolved withthese bacteria.
This is supposed to behappening and when it's out of
balance it can cause so muchtrouble.
(29:06):
So there's cool studies, forexample, taking like mice that
are anxious and mice that arenot anxious, and you take the
microbiome you know through likea fecal transplant from the
anxious place and put it in thenon-anxious mice and they become
anxious.
Yeah, all these studies showingthe role just the microbiome,
but you know they didn't changethe diet of these mice or their
(29:27):
environment, it was just thebacteria.
Nika Lawrie (29:29):
Yeah, I actually I saw someone this is a while ago,
but someone do, they wereactually doing it and I let me
preface this before I say it,that I don't recommend people
doing this on their own.
Definitely see a physician,talk to people, you know, figure
out what's going to be safe andbest for for you.
(29:50):
But I saw someone who it wassome kind of documentary, it's
been a couple years now whereshe had severe depression, where
it was causing suicidalthoughts, and so she actually
did a fecal matter transplantfrom I think it was her
boyfriend or brother orsomething like that, where she
(30:10):
actually blended it and put itinto capsules and took it, yeah,
and it completely it removedher like depressive issues, it
removed her suicidal thoughts,and so you know it was a
personal experience, it was herown thing.
So again, you know it's a verydelicate, not our medical advice
(30:30):
right now, but it makes thepoint right.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (30:32):
Yeah, these microbiome, they're highly,
highly influential.
Nika Lawrie (30:37):
Yeah.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (30:38):
It just in all areas.
I mean, there was a great studycame out a few years ago with
fecal transplants and autism andthe dramatic difference there,
right, yeah, I mean so muchbrain connection to the gut and
I think, like I said, I thinkwe're still just scratching the
surface of that.
Nika Lawrie (30:54):
Yeah, absolutely what.
Share your thoughts on hormonebalancing, especially for women?
I hear story after story ofwomen who are struggling with
brain fog and anxiety anddepression and you name it Right
.
And then they go and theyfinally get their hormones
balanced, especially those in umkind of perimetopause or
menopause phase, Right?
And then it's like the cloudsclear and the sun comes out and
(31:18):
they're like, oh my gosh, I canfunction again, I feel some joy
again.
The sun comes out and they'relike, oh my gosh, I can function
again, I feel some joy again.
What?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (31:29):
are your thoughts on hormones and hormone
replacement therapy and kind ofbalancing all of that?
Yeah, I think my thoughts arewhat you just said, which is
hugely influential.
I definitely see people all thetime with premenstrual symptoms
, like even premenstrualdysphoric disorder, which is
like the more severe form oflike sadness or irritability,
your mood swings before theperiod, and we see that estrogen
(31:50):
progesterone imbalance and whenyou can resolve that, their
life can be completely different, so much better.
And I absolutely see theeffects of menopause all the
time, so much better and Iabsolutely see the effects of
menopause all the time.
Treating that with hormones,like with, for example,
progesterone my gosh, it's likethe magic sleep aid for
(32:10):
postmenopausal women.
It's so great when that's whatthey need because it makes such
a difference.
But hormones are hugelyimpactful and I think women have
been underserved in this areaAbsolutely and I think this
service you know in the sense ofthe Women's Health Initiative
study, like 20 years ago, thisgreat book on that Estrogen
Matters.
I recommend people read if theywant to know that story.
(32:32):
But, like, hormones are veryimportant and when they're out
of balance or you don't have theright amount, you can suffer
greatly and it's not just thehormones.
Right, a lot of the thingsimpact the hormones.
So, again, the microbiome Imentioned detoxification can be
blocked by certain bacteria.
Well, estrogen can absolutelybe recycled in the body instead
(32:55):
of excreted.
When you have bacteriaproducing this enzyme called
beta-glucuronidase, that willundo what the liver had just
done to try to get rid of theestrogen.
So you have to attend to thewhole picture, right?
Insulin, like blood sugar, isgoing to affect your hormones
thyroid you have to look at theother hormones too.
But I agree totally.
(33:17):
They are massively importantand when we get those balanced
it can be a game changer.
Nika Lawrie (33:23):
Absolutely so I want to go into we've kind of
talked about the kind of bigpicture of you know how this can
impact us and how you know howthings are sort of working.
But I want to talk about somepractical solutions, and maybe
you can touch on your naturalmood solution program too.
I'm like what are somepractical lifestyle changes that
(33:43):
we can start implementing todaythat'll start improving our
mood and hopefully helping ourmental health too?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (33:51):
Yes, it begins with really fundamental
things and I wanna just say,before I list these off, that I
don't want people to getoverwhelmed.
The real important thing is tojust start with one thing and
take baby steps and just knowthat these absolutely add up.
There's just this wonderfulsynergy.
So if you first start going tobed at a good time so that you
(34:13):
can prioritize your sleep Now Iunderstand some people have real
trouble sleeping, so I'm nottalking about that.
But for those who are just kindof ignoring their sleep and not
making sure they get enough butthey could that's a place to
start right there.
That's hormones.
That's going to set blood sugarsensitivity.
Insulin sensitivity is soimportant.
When you don't get enough sleep, the brain doesn't have a
(34:33):
chance to detoxify.
That's the only time when ithappens is overnight, so you've
got to attend to that.
That's a good basic first placeto start.
Then you know, when it comes tonutrition, we talked about the
standard American diet.
So starting to make somechanges where you know if you
see there's some kind ofprocessed food you're eating,
all the time trying to come upwith a better option for that,
(34:54):
focusing on nutrition like whatis this food giving me?
Sure you're getting healthyfats like avocado oil or coconut
oil or olive oil, and not theseindustrial seed oils like
canola oil that we were talkingabout.
Eating a wide variety of therainbow of fruits and vegetables
(35:16):
, that's going to give you allsorts of important compounds
that feed your microbiome theright way and making sure you're
getting adequate protein ineach meal so that your blood
sugar will be stable.
That right there, those stepswhich you don't you're not going
to do all that at once, but inthose steps are going to have a
humongous impact.
When you've got that foundationlaid, you can you want to start
(35:37):
thinking about supplementing forthe things that you can't get
enough of, and and that's youknow.
In my online program, theNatural Mood Solution, we go
into a lot of detail about thatand that's an educational
program.
For hey, how can you addressthese overlooked underlying
physical causes of anxiety anddepression?
That is really missing in thesoil at this point.
(36:04):
There's been a lot of depletion, so we don't get it in our food
, and adding some magnesium canmake the world of difference to
your sleep quality.
It helps a lot of people withanxiety, helps their bowel
function.
It helps hormone production,helps a lot of things.
Nika Lawrie (36:19):
Do you have a specific version of magnesium?
I don't like which one.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (36:26):
There are many forms of magnesium.
You know I don't like which one, which one.
There are many forms ofmagnesium, so I, for anxiety, I
really love magnesium glycinateand you know, if you're a little
more stopped up then I wouldsay magnesium citrate.
You still absorb the magnesiumin that case, but it'll help you
have more regular bowelmovements, which is critical for
toxifying and for a healthymicrobiome.
(36:46):
You have to be having dailybowel movements, so that's
really really important.
So magnesium is a good one tosupplement with.
And then there's a few otherareas I would recommend
supplementation to.
Nika Lawrie (36:58):
And the big ones I usually try to mention.
I know you mentioned omega-3earlier, but I think we're so
deficient in omega three becauseof the diet, and then vitamin D
, DK a combination there.
Do you have thoughts on either?
I know omega three definitely,but yeah 100% agree.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (37:14):
And there's tons of research on omega threes
and their anti-inflammatoryrole and their antidepressant
role.
And unless you're eating likehigh omega three fish, like four
times a week, you're notgetting enough.
Um, you know, people will say,oh, I have flax seed or chia
seed.
Well, you, you convert almostnone of that, like 2%, to the
omega-3s in the form we need.
(37:34):
So you really need tosupplement if you're not getting
them from the fish.
And, um, yeah, that's hugely,hugely important and makes a
massive difference to how peoplefeel.
It takes a few months to feelthat because, kind of, do an oil
change on your body?
It takes time.
Nika Lawrie (37:49):
Yeah, but I love that.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (37:52):
I didn't coin that, I learned that from
my teachers, but like it'sreally true, it takes time to
replace these different lipidsand these different membranes
and and it, but it really makesa difference.
Nika Lawrie (38:00):
Yeah.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (38:01):
And vitamin D yeah, huge.
Like you know, I was justlistening to a wonderful lecture
, dr Greenblatt, talking aboutsuicide risk and like what
really matters for this and theresearch in what raises risk.
And it's really interesting andone of these was and some of
this research is done by themilitary that vitamin D levels
(38:23):
under 15, people had 50% highersuicide risk.
I mean, vitamin D is criticalfor so many things.
You probably know it's actuallya hormone.
It's so important for immunefunction so that means it's
going to affect inflammationAgain, that common pathway,
right.
So getting your vitamin D up atleast to 30, but optimally more
(38:43):
like 50 or 60, really makes ahuge difference.
And then the other one that wehaven't talked about is B
vitamins.
That's the other.
I think with mood, that'sreally really, really important.
Folate was a B vitamin.
That's very important and forsome folks they really need
extra support around folatebecause they're genital.
(39:04):
And the other one I would sayis B12.
People, as they age, they can'tabsorb B12 as well.
And then, of course, vegansaren't getting it in their diets
.
They have to supplement, butfixing people's B12 levels can
be a game changer.
And B complex you need theother Bs too.
Nika Lawrie (39:25):
Yeah, that's what my mom always talks about
getting her her bee shots andshe loves it.
She's like I always feel somuch better and it makes you a
lot, right?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (39:33):
Yeah, it must be important if it feels so
good.
Nika Lawrie (39:36):
Yeah, it's huge, definitely.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (39:38):
Yeah, and you know people are on
medications that are depletingthese vitamins and aren't
informed of that.
I mean, I can think of apatient who was on metformin,
which is a pretty usefulmedication for blood sugar, kind
of one of the better ones outthere but it's notorious for
depleting B12.
(39:58):
I never told her and she hadall these health improvements on
the metformin, but after like ayear on it she was so depressed
and I was like, did anyone tellyou you need to take B12?
Nope, and then within a week oftaking B12, she felt like a new
woman.
So these things matter a lot.
Nika Lawrie (40:14):
Yeah, yeah.
One of the other questions Ihad for you is asking about your
advice for people who may bestruggling on their kind of
health journey.
I know you've gone through thatjourney as a practitioner, as a
physician, right Like goingfrom traditional to more
functional medicine approach.
Do you have advice for thepatients who are struggling to
(40:37):
get the answers or the supportor the care that they need from
traditional, and how to approachthat?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (40:43):
Yeah, that's actually why I created my
course, because I think that youknow, first of all, there
aren't enough functionalmedicine physicians out there
and it's hard to get themaccessible for everybody, and
it's also not what everybodyneeds.
I mean, not everyone needs likethe full detective work.
They need some fundamentals andsome foundational stuff, and
they'll get a lot of people, geta lot better from that, and so
(41:05):
that's the gap that I saw and Ifelt.
You know, I want people to beable to get the education that's
going to help them helpthemselves.
So that's.
You know, my program, theNatural Mood Solution, is really
all about looking at thefoundations, the fundamentals of
that supplementation ofanti-inflammatory, nutrient
dense diet, of blood sugarregulation, digestion, and then
(41:28):
some about avoiding toxins anddetoxifying.
This is the place to start, Ifeel like, and you baby step
your way into making changes andthen it really adds up, and
then if you've gotten a lotbetter but you have certain
things that aren't better, thatmay be the time to then find a
practitioner and go deeper.
But that practitioner will beso happy that you've already
(41:49):
taken all those steps.
That's hard, yeah, because youhave to do that stuff.
You can't bypass that.
Nika Lawrie (41:57):
Yeah, definitely.
One thing is I didn't bring updetoxification and toxics or
toxins very much in thisconversation, or really at all.
I talk about it so much inother shows and so I think a lot
of listeners know about that.
But just to touch on it beforewe close out today the
connection to mental health andwell-being what is your take on
(42:20):
that or advice you have?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (42:22):
You know, my take on it is, the longer I'm
learning and practicing, youknow, I really I feel like maybe
it was about two years agowhere I just was suddenly like
you know what it all comes downto toxins and trauma.
That's what it feels like to me.
Nika Lawrie (42:35):
It is right yeah.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (42:36):
In a way, that's a very incendiary
combination and, in a way,toxins are just another trauma.
So, yeah, toxins can be a lotof things.
Right, it could be hormonedisrupting chemicals, um, you
know, from pesticides, frompersonal care products.
You know, it sounds like you'vebeen doing a great job of
education your listeners aboutthat, which is I try every day.
Nika Lawrie (42:56):
Every day I'm like it's everything right.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (42:58):
Or, you know , from your water or your food
and obviously we can't control.
We can't control of all our airand stuff.
But there are things that arein our control and that's what's
worth working on, but also moldtoxicity.
This is something,unfortunately, is really common
and totally missed by mostpeople.
Yeah.
Nika Lawrie (43:19):
I have an interview I just did last week that's
about to come out, all aboutmolds and the impacts on our
health.
It's so important.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (43:27):
So that's a big driver of people's
depression and anxietyabsolutely can be from that.
They usually have othersymptoms as well.
But absolutely don't think thatI mean you've gone over it in
that episode, so I won't go deepinto it, but I see it all the
time, I treat it all the time.
It's a big deal.
Making sure you're not livingin mold is one of the best
things you can do for yourhealth.
And then, yeah, we talked aboutendocrine disrupting chemicals,
(43:53):
heavy metals also a bigcontributor, right, we know
mercury, lead these things canbe ruinous to the brain and
these are part of in theresearch that Dr Dale Bredesen's
done on Alzheimer's, forexample.
You know, you see that some ofthese patients have quite a bit
(44:14):
of heavy metal.
There's a lot of disease there.
They'll find that infections or, you know, problems with blood
sugar.
There's many contributingfactors, but these metals are an
issue for brain health as well.
So toxins absolutely play arole, and a big part of the way
they play the role too is theirimpact on the microbiome and
that with the Roundup, you knowif they're killing off your good
(44:35):
bacteria, that's, you know, andthey're just blocking different
things in the body that thebody can't work right when you
know this metal is taking theplace of some other thing that
should be there.
Nika Lawrie (44:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I have two questions for youto close out the show.
Before I get to those, is thereanything that we haven't
touched on today that you wouldwant to share, or any kind of
advice or tips or anything thatyou might have that we haven't
touched on?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (45:06):
This one thing that I think we were
mentioning these differentnutrients.
I want to mention one moreimportant nutrient.
That's zinc.
Zinc is another one that Ithink people are often very,
very low on.
I test people and I see peoplelow all the time, and that can
have a lot to do with brainfunction as well.
So I want to mention that and Iwill say too.
(45:26):
I'd like to say a little moreabout blood sugar, because, I've
said several times, blood sugaraffects anxiety.
But I want to just explain thatwhen people eat a higher
carbohydrate meal or they havetrouble managing the
carbohydrates because they'vebecome insulin resistant,
they're like on thatpre-diabetes or diabetic path.
Maybe they have polycysticovarian syndrome, which is
(45:48):
another thing related to insulinresistance.
The blood sugar will spikeafter you eat that high carb
meal and then it will plummetand when it's dropping rapidly,
you will release adrenaline andthat cause you to feel anxious
and feel maybe shaky, not feelgood, and this can be happening
overnight.
I tested my people withcontinuous glucose monitors and
(46:10):
we see that this is a majorcause of their waking up at 2 am
or 3 am.
So that's a big one that can befixed.
Nika Lawrie (46:17):
That's so huge.
I put out a social media post acouple months ago.
I had eaten something that washeavy in white rice rice and I
wear a continuous glucosemonitor on and off, and so I was
able to track it, and you knowI'm pretty careful about that
stuff, but so even for me itspiked quite a bit and then it
(46:38):
crashed really hard in themiddle of the night and I woke
up in the middle of the night,and so I was able to find those
exact connections right Betweenthe blood sugar dropping heavily
from that you know glucosespike that I had from the rice,
and then it wakes me up and thenyou know it takes a long time
for your body to fall asleep andthen you're tired the next
morning and then you want sugarand it's just this whole spiral,
(47:01):
kind of thing, it's just cycleright.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (47:02):
Yes, cycle right.
It's so hard to fall asleepbecause there's all this
adrenaline running through yourbody and it's such a powerful
thing to have people realizelike, oh, that's why it's
happening and here's what we cando to change it, and it's
really treatable.
So I think just really, really,blood sugar is huge, and
running around with a high bloodsugar all the time also is
associated with depression.
So that's a major cause ofinflammation in people and it's
(47:25):
something we can do so muchabout.
So just want to reiterate thatthat's something really worth
working on.
Nika Lawrie (47:31):
Yeah, absolutely Well.
Thank you so much for justsharing all of this knowledge.
I'm so grateful for it.
I think it's so importanteducate as many women as
possible about like there arethings that you can do that are
in your own hands.
You know within grasp that youcan do to really feel better,
both mentally and physically.
(47:52):
So I'm always so grateful tohave individuals like you
experts come on and just sharetheir knowledge.
So thank you very much andthank you for the work you're
doing.
I just want to commend you forthat, cause I think it's so
important.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (48:01):
Thank you for that, and I agree with you,
that's my same.
Passion is like getting peopleto know there's so much you can
do and it's so hopeful.
Yeah, yeah, it's reallyempowering.
Nika Lawrie (48:11):
Yeah, the hope is there, for sure, definitely.
So, before we close out, canyou share, where can listeners
find you and connect with youand anything that you would want
to share in that sense?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (48:22):
Yeah.
So first I have a nicelydigestible bad pun free gift.
It's called the Top 10Overlooked Causes of Depression
and Anxiety, and that's reallyeasy to find.
It's at drtracymccarthycom,backslash top 10.
That's T-O-P and then thenumber 10.
Nika Lawrie (48:42):
I'll put it in the show notes, just to make it easy
.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (48:44):
Yeah, because I encourage people to
check that out, because thattalks about some of these things
we've mentioned and this iswhere you can start really easy,
like here's some ideas andthat's just easy to take action
on.
And then I'm on Instagram atDrTracyMcCarthy, and then my
practice website in NorthernCalifornia it's
DrTracyMcCarthycom.
My program that I mentioned,the Natural Mood Solution, is at
(49:13):
naturalmoodsolutioncom.
But if you get that top 10guide, it'll also kind of lead
you through more information andeventually, more information on
the course, if it's somethingyou're looking for.
Nika Lawrie (49:18):
Perfect.
Everything will be in the shownotes, make it as easy as
possible for people to find you,and I really I encourage
listeners to reach out and checkout her course, because I think
this information is soimportant, especially if you're
dealing with any type of mentalhealth issue for sure.
So, dr McCarthy, I have onelast question for you today that
I ask all listeners, or allpeople I interview what is
(49:39):
something inspiring that you'veeither experienced or learned
that you would like to sharewith the world?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (49:52):
I'm going to share a book that I love, that
part of what really changed mythinking.
I'm going to grab it.
Since we also here, it's righthere on my bookshelf.
For those who are on thepodcast and watching the video
this is called Nutrition andPhysical Degeneration by Dr
Weston A Price.
This is a dentist who did allthis research in the 1930s.
He's the one who discoveredwhat became known as vitamin K.
Yeah, yeah.
(50:13):
In the book.
It's all called Activator X, butthis book changed my life
because this is him and his wifetraveling the world looking at
different peoples that have notyet been exposed to Western
foods and looking at the rate ofcavities and their rate of
malocclusion, which is like whatwe would call now you would
need braces if you havemalocclusion and the dramatic
(50:35):
difference with when they'reeating their traditional foods
and then when the Western dietis introduced.
These people did not havecavities and did not need braces
before these things happenedand that really changed my life
to understand that we are meantto be healthy really, and so
where's the mismatch with ourenvironment now that is leading
(50:56):
to that and that's where we canintervene.
But the book is justfascinating and there's all
these cool pictures and you goeverywhere in the world and
they're eating very, verydifferent diets in these
different places, but thesediets all meet the nutritional
needs that you know that aresadly, our standard American
diet is falling so short on.
So to me it was a veryinspiring and fundamentally kind
of paradigm changing book.
Nika Lawrie (51:18):
You know, it's funny about him and the journey
that he went on.
One of the things that reallystrikes me now is whenever I see
, you know, like, think aboutanthropology and ancient humans
and you see the skulls with theteeth that still remain, and the
teeth are like you know,they're formed perfectly, just
like if you'd had braces.
(51:39):
Yet they didn't have braces,and so why is that so different
now and what is happening?
And so it really helps youthink about the struggles that
current human bodies are goingthrough and the difference over
time.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (51:55):
Yeah, I found it extremely
thought-provoking that way andit just really stayed with me.
I think it always shifted myworldview.
Nika Lawrie (52:03):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you again so much forcoming on the show.
I'm so grateful.
I really appreciate you.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (52:07):
Well, it's been a real pleasure.
Thank you so much for having.
Welcome to the Inspired with Nika Lawrie
podcast.
Dr Tracy McCarthy, welcome tothe show.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (00:21):
Thank you, Nika.
It's such a pleasure to be here.
Nika Lawrie (00:23):
Yeah, so I'm really excited to get into it with you
.
Today we're going to talk aboutkind of the functional medicine
approach to anxiety anddepression.
I'm sure other things will feedinto that conversation too, as
they always do.
But before we get into that,tell me a little bit about
yourself.
What's your backstory?
How did you go down the path offunctional medicine?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (00:44):
Yeah, I'm happy to.
So I'm a medical doctor and apsychiatrist and when I first
got into medical school I wasreally driven by wanting to
understand why do people getsick, what goes wrong in the
body and then how can we helpthem.
And before that I was anengineer.
I was always like how do thingswork?
It's the same thing.
I wanted to understand this andthe first few years of medical
(01:06):
school were really prettysatisfying that way, learning so
much physiology andpathophysiology.
But then as my trainingprogressed, it became so much
more about matching a symptomcluster to a diagnosis which
that pattern recognition is veryimportant and still very much
what I do but then matching thatdiagnosis to a pill.
It very much became reduced tothat in many ways and my
(01:31):
curiosity that always driven meand asking why, why does this
happen?
It got kind of squashed, like Iwould ask why does somebody get
schizophrenia?
And we don't really know.
End of conversation.
You know what pill are yougoing to give them?
And of course the treatment isimportant.
But I really had this yearningto understand what's driving
things and I got almost kind oftrained out of thinking about it
(01:54):
and fortunately for me later,you know, in my residency but
unrelated to that, I becameinterested and became exposed to
all this literature on chronicinflammation and the links of
nutrition to inflammation andstarted to hear about people
applying this.
You know, started to hear thisterm functional medicine and I
(02:15):
was amazed.
I'm like there are doctors whoare using these tools that I had
begun to learn about andstarted incorporating my own
life and just feeling better indifferent ways, just different
things I'd made and I I franklygot really angry for a while
because I realized, you know, Irealized I thought, well, I
naively thought I was going tolearn everything I needed to
(02:35):
know to help people in medicalschool.
I mean, it's a silly idea now.
But I really did think that andI was like, why didn't I learn
all this stuff that's in theresearch, the nutrition training
is minimal to zero and doesn'tapply.
I mean it's about extremes ofvitamin deficiencies that we
don't see in our culture andthat's about it.
(02:57):
And so I was very disillusioned, I was very angry for a little
while, but I became reallypassionate about the subject
because it was fascinating and Isaid this was why I went into
medicine what is going wrong inthe body.
So then I started to getconnected to the Institute for
Functional Medicine, starteddoing trainings there and, gosh,
I loved that because I was like, wow, yeah, this is why I'm
(03:19):
here.
This is that root cause, thisis that detective work that I
want to be doing.
So I did all my training there,became certified as a
practitioner and in the processrealized, hey, if I want to
actually help people this way, Ican't continue to just be doing
inpatient hospital-basedpsychiatry because it's not
(03:39):
going to work in that system.
I need to open a practice.
Had to figure that out.
But I had so much wonderfulexperiences along the way of
first working with people withtheir nutrition and seeing
results, and then working moreon their digestion and then
starting to address toxins andhormones and, of course, the
microbiome and just seeing moreand more amazing results.
(04:00):
And the best part about it ispeople being empowered to really
help themselves.
It's much more of a partnership.
It's not like the doctor tellsyou to take this pill and that's
it.
And they you know people, mypatients before you know that
when I was getting frustratedwith this model of a pill for an
ill, they were frustrated oftentoo Like do I have the
(04:20):
testification for the rest of mylife, or hey, you know what's
driving these symptoms.
Is this pill actually fixingthat or what else can I do?
And then also, maybe themedication's partially treating
it, but these have side effectsand they still have remaining
symptoms.
That's very common.
So all these scenarios, youknow, I felt like we could not
address in that conventionalmodel.
Nika Lawrie (04:41):
Yeah.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (04:42):
So I feel now extremely fortunate and
grateful to have the practice Ido, where I get to partner with
people in this deep way and go,you know, get down into the
roots and figure out what thepieces are and empower them, and
it's just really satisfying.
Nika Lawrie (04:57):
I love your story.
I felt bad.
I laughed a moment ago when yousaid that you got really angry.
I didn't mean to laugh at thefact that you were angry, but
it's.
You know, I hear the story sooften and you know, and it's so
frustrating when we, when werealize that there's all these
other tools and processes andthings that we can do that are
(05:20):
natural.
Really, you know, it's a it'san almost simpler approach to
health, but it's not taught tomost of our doctors, it's not
taught to our psychiatrists, ourtherapists, it's not taught in
our culture, and it's sofrustrating when you learn about
it because you're just like,why are we hitting our heads
(05:40):
against the wall over and overagain and getting nowhere when
there's all these other optionsout here that we can be helping
people with?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (05:47):
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, I feel like probablythat disillusionment, getting
mad thing is just like almostlike a critical step, because I
think, you know, I really likeforcibly had my mind opened.
It feels like, and now I'mgrateful every day that that
happened, because now there's somuch I keep learning and it
just there's no end to thelearning and it's wonderful.
(06:09):
Yeah, and I think too, likewhen you talk about it's just
not taught, it's just the modelthe acute care really comes from
, I think, the early 1900s, andlike figuring out what you know,
for example, what causedtuberculosis and then what pill
could treat that, and that'scritically important.
But it left us with this sortof idea that we're always
(06:31):
looking for the single cause forsomething and then looking for
the magic bullet for that, andthat is not how chronic symptoms
work at all.
And total lack of understandingthat there's going to and those
multiple factors aren't the samein each person.
Everyone's got their kind ofcluster of contributing factors
that manifest then as depressionor as autoimmune disease or as
(06:56):
gut issues, and we really haveto have a different paradigm of
looking for pieces and, like yousaid so often, it's the natural
things that end up being thebest tools.
Nika Lawrie (07:07):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I, I feel so often that we
almost need, you know, threesets of a medical system where
you have, you know, there thereis a need for the expertise, and
in different parts of the body,and there is a need for
prescriptions and medication insome places, right, but then you
(07:27):
need this whole section that ispreventative and the approach
of how do we look at the fullbody, the full system?
Right, like you know, our brainisn't working separately from
our lungs, from our heart.
They're all working together ina system, right, and so, like,
how do we approach it from that?
And then I think we also needthat really, like, let's take it
(07:48):
back to nature.
Like nature figured out how tomake us all work.
Let's use the tools that it'sproviding to help us function at
our best.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (07:55):
You know I couldn't agree more.
I mean, I think to that lastpoint.
It's like what can we learnfrom looking at how we evolved?
You know, what might our DNA beexpecting in terms of our
environment that we can harnessto help ourselves feel better?
And you know, I do want tostress too I'm absolutely not
talking about throwing out thebaby with the bathwater.
(08:16):
Like you know, if I'm in amotor vehicle accident, please
take me to the local traumacenter, absolutely yeah, as a
functional medicine doctor, Iabsolutely do use medications
because these are tools.
I'm agnostic about tools.
I want to know what's a goodtool, what's going to be safe
and helpful.
And there's a wide range.
And lots of those areinterventions, lots of those are
(08:37):
supplements or herbs.
Some of those are medications,right, and with this approach,
it's really about figuring outwhat those underlying imbalances
are and then using the besttools to help correct them.
Nika Lawrie (08:50):
Yeah, absolutely Totally.
Building off of this, let's talkabout the anxiety and
depression kind of piece of that, because so often in interviews
I've done, you know, we talkabout the functional medicine
approach to kind of overallhealth or different elements, a
lot of like autoimmune diseaseor different I don't know things
(09:12):
that women are struggling with,often like hormone imbalance,
but we haven't really touched alot on anxiety and depression
and I think it's so key tounderstand how that is linked to
how the rest of our body isfunctioning, understand how that
is linked to how the rest ofour body is functioning.
You know we were talking aboutthe separation of, you know, the
brain versus the heart, versusthe lungs, and the reality is
the brain is connected to therest of the body and so it's
(09:34):
probably going to be impacted bythings.
So I want to kind of get intothat.
But before we, before we reallyjump down that rabbit hole, can
you just kind of give a baseexplanation of like anxiety and
depression and they're similarbut they're also kind of two
different things and what arekind of some of the signs or
symptoms people might beexperiencing, just as a general
(09:57):
concept?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (09:58):
Yeah, okay, great question.
So you know, we have inpsychiatry the Diagnostic and
Statistics Manual, which we, youknow, is our official guide for
labeling things with the actualdiagnosis, which is really just
a bunch of people agreeing Like, right now, this is the
consensus that these symptomsequal, this label.
But the truth is all thesethings exist on a spectrum right
(10:20):
, spectrum right.
So anxiety can be, you know,anything from you know, kind of
an excessive degree of worry,feeling, you know, preoccupied,
stressed all the time aboutdifferent outcomes.
You know, to the point thatit's like usually the issue is
how much is it impairing you?
But it can be impairing yourhappiness, you know it can be
(10:42):
that simple, be impairing yourhappiness.
You know it can be that simple.
Two, all the way to fulldiagnoses, like you know
generalized anxiety disorder,panic disorder, obsessive
compulsive disorder, thesedifferent spectrum of anxiety
disorders.
And then with depression, it'smore about there's sort of two
(11:03):
sides to the depression cointhat it can show up as, like you
know, in my training, it's likethere's nine symptoms.
You have to have five of them,but, right, it's going to be
like depressed mood, so sadness,for example, um, anhedonia,
which is like lack of enjoymentof things you normally would
enjoy.
Sleep disturbance is part of it, but for some folks it's
(11:24):
sleeping too much, for others itit's not sleep.
There can be problems withconcentration, there can be
suicidal thoughts, but don'thave to have those.
I can go on.
But it's just like they are twodifferent entities but they
coexist often and they can feedeach other.
Often.
I've definitely met people whothey had an anxiety sort of
secondary to their depression,because it was like, well, why
(11:49):
am I feeling so bad?
Why?
And they create additionalworry and then the anxiety, when
it's wrong, it can also lead todepression as well.
So I would often say they'retwo sides of the same coin, but
there are different thingsdriving them.
Often there are common roots aswell from the functional
medicine point of view of, like,what are the physical body
(12:11):
drivers and I'm talking aboutbeyond the social factors that
we might be much more aware of,which are just as important.
But the overlooked physicalparts is kind of probably what
we're going to talk more abouttoday.
But they can be not quite thesame in anxiety and depression.
Nika Lawrie (12:28):
Can you talk a little bit about the separation
and approach that maybefunctional medicine might take
versus traditional medicine intreating these issues?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (12:41):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Functional medicine again seeksto ask why.
Why is this happening?
And you know that's certainlysomething someone would do in
therapy, which is a veryimportant tool for either
(13:03):
depression or anxiety, and I'm ahuge fan of therapy and lots of
different types of therapiescan be helpful.
Also, why in the body?
Not just why, like in your life, not just what are the
stressors, what was the trauma,it's also like what's the
nutrient deficiency, for example?
What's the infection?
So, with the conventional model, you go to your doctor, either
your primary care doctor or, ifit's a more severe case, you may
be referred to a psychiatristand your options are going to be
therapy and medication.
(13:23):
It's just about the end of thelist.
Now there are some othertreatments, like TMS, which is a
transcranial magneticstimulation which can be
effective for depression, orsome other applications, and
there's even ECT, but these areless common, right, the majority
of people are going to beoffered medication and be
(13:44):
recommended to do a therapywhich they often don't have good
access to.
But and the medications we havefor depression and anxiety
aren't great.
Yeah, part of the problem, youknow I said earlier I use, you
know, medications as tools,absolutely.
But I have certain medicationsthat I think are really
effective and safe and thenother ones that are kind of, you
(14:05):
know, that are really tough touse.
They have lots of side effects,and then there's some that just
don't work that great andunfortunately our
antidepressants fall into thatlast category.
Studies show they're, you know,pretty similar, slightly better
than placebo.
It's not saying much at all andyou know they definitely come
with side effects.
And anxiety medications, youknow there's some of them are
(14:28):
very, very habit forming.
You can become on them and Imean that's even true of
antidepressants that you can be,you develop, you know, your
body, your brain adapts and thenyou can have a withdrawal or
discontinuation syndrome whenyou stop them.
So you're not without issue.
Again, sometimes it's the righttool to use.
(14:49):
I'm not judging that, I am justsaying that, like, I want us to
have good tools and useeverything available to us.
So the functional medicinemodel is gonna look at, ask why,
first of all, and try to usethe best tools to correct the
problem.
And if someone needs, like,acute stabilization and
medication is the answer forthat, then that's appropriate.
But that then gives you time togo.
(15:09):
Okay, what's going on with theinflammation that's driving this
?
Where's that coming from?
That's a big difference, right,there is just going deep into
why and looking at the body andrecognizing how it's connected.
I mean, we were laughing aboutthis earlier, right, because
you're like, yes, the brain isactually connected.
When I was first learningfunctional medicine, I was
(15:32):
actually really I was kind ofworried.
I was like, does this apply tomental health?
Because I didn't see anyexamples of it and I was so
conditioned about this siloedmodel that we're in, right, like
there's cardiology over here,there's gastroenterology over
here.
I mean, even when you thinkabout the brain, there's
neurology and psychiatry.
Right, it's like you're crazywhen you think about it.
(15:53):
So I had seen examples ofautoimmune disease and gut stuff
getting better with functionalmedicine.
But I was not sure about mentalhealth until I finally started
to see some examples of peopleusing that and that was very
inspiring to me.
And then, as I started to learnthe connection with
inflammation and depression, itreally became clear.
And I'm at the point now in myfunctional medicine career where
(16:15):
you know we joke, everythingcauses everything.
I mean, depending on the rightperson.
It's kind of true.
Nika Lawrie (16:25):
Yeah, absolutely so .
You mentioned inflammation acouple of times.
Can you talk about what theconnection is between kind of
our mental health andinflammation throughout the body
?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (16:35):
Yeah, inflammation is really the
common pathway that symptoms endup occurring from.
So there's all manner of thingsthat can cause inflammation,
and inflammation is your body'sresponse to an infection or an
injury, some kind of trigger,and it's not a bad thing.
We absolutely need acuteinflammation, short-term,
(16:58):
appropriate inflammation, torecover.
So if you get an infection oryou sprain your ankle or
something, that's the immunesystem and inflammation mounting
a response to heal your body.
But when there's chronictriggers to that inflammation,
then you've got this sort ofsimmering fire of inflammation
in the body that's going tocause a lot of collateral damage
.
When you're in that mode, youcan't be repairing and restoring
(17:21):
organ reserve and it's thatchronic inflammation that
manifests in all these differentways in our chronic health
conditions, whether it'sdiabetes or psoriasis or
migraines or whatever.
So, yeah, it shows up a lot ofdifferent ways, depends on your
genetics and your environmentand your unique life
(17:45):
circumstances, and it dependssomewhat on what those triggers
are, but inflammation is acommon pathway.
Nika Lawrie (17:51):
What are some of the things that we might be
doing in our life on a dailybasis especially with the kind
of standard American diet thatare triggering inflammation
throughout the body?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (18:01):
Well, the standard American diet is a
great place to start because Iknow why I said it.
Yeah, right, well, it's thelow-hanging fruit, in a way, and
yet sometimes the hardest thingto change, because it's so Just
everywhere it presents Exactly,we're surrounded by it.
But really, a standard Americandiet is high in processed foods
, and why is that a problem?
(18:22):
These processed foods are fullof what we would call industrial
seed oils, like canola oil,soybean oil, these cheap
grain-based oils I mean,vegetable oil is a euphemism for
these these do not come fromvegetables and these are high in
omega-6 fats, and omega-6 fatsare pro-inflammatory.
I tell people they are the gaspedal on the inflammation, as
(18:47):
opposed to the omega-3s, whichis the breaks, yeah, and we
don't have much omega-3 in thediet.
We have tons of omega-6.
So every processed food, everycracker, cookie chip you eat, is
like you look on the back, it'sfried in canola oil, soybean
oil.
These are all full of those.
So that's just like lighterfluid on the inflammation all
the time.
(19:07):
And then the processed carbs inthose are part of the problem as
well, spiking people's bloodsugar.
There's so much I can say aboutthat and the role of blood
sugar and anxiety.
We can talk about that, butjust these carbohydrates that
are really stripped of nutrientsand and they're again mainly
grain based which is a problemlike corn or wheat, and they
(19:30):
also often contain a lot ofpesticides like Roundup.
So these things damage yourmicrobiome and other pesticides
can harm you in other ways orcould be hormone disrupting
chemicals.
So it's like not got a goodstuff for you and it's got a lot
of stuff for you.
That that's the processed foods,right, um, and?
(19:51):
And then people also are noteating healthy fats and they're
not consuming a wide variety ofcolorful vegetables and, um,
often they're not eating enoughprotein.
I see that all the time.
So standard American diet islike high glycemic load, meaning
like spiking your blood sugarall the time, lacking nutrient
(20:12):
density you know just doesn'thave a lot of nutrients and then
very pro inflammatory.
So it's like, and you can lookat it, it's not giving you good
stuff and it's causing a lot oftrouble.
Nika Lawrie (20:30):
I have a question.
So I know, as I had beenstarting to change my diet, I'm
very addicted to sugary drinksLike I love Starbucks and things
, and I've worked past most ofthat.
But then when I talk to clientsI work with or other people
that are asking me questionsabout how to change their diet,
they always talk about thespecific addiction that they
have to some type of food.
Like it's very you know, theydon't want to give.
They're fine changing mostthings, but they don't want to
(20:51):
give up this one thing and it'susually the thing that is
usually the worst for them,because they eat it the most
often, right.
Do you have any advice from thatkind of repetitive habit
addiction perspective of how toovercome those habits?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (21:07):
That's such a great question, and I think it
.
I think there's a lot of toolsand the answer may look
different for different folks.
Sometimes that craving for thatparticular substance the sugary
drink that could be driven bysomething going on in the body
like a fungal overgrowth, yeastovergrowth may really increase
(21:29):
your sugar cravings.
Maybe it's something to do withdopamine balance in your brain
and what that reward is for you.
I like, though, to encouragepeople to do experiments.
So think about cutting this outforever, cause that feels very
depressing and overwhelming, youknow.
But to see how do you feel ifyou take it out for like two
(21:52):
weeks, three weeks, how is yoursleep?
Now?
You know, how is your anxietyLike if the, if the blood sugar
is spiking from these things,there will be people who will
notice, wow, my anxiety droppeda lot when I got rid of it, or
I'm sleeping so much better.
And, gee, I didn't realize Iwas actually sensitive to
caffeine, which is like way morepeople than they realize, right
?
So you know, making these justto just try and see, and I think
(22:17):
a lot of people are willing todo that experiment rather than
like, oh, I have to be deprivedof this thing Once they see the
benefit for themselves.
That really changes the riskreward around it.
And then they usually get moreinterested in finding
alternatives that can fit thebill, like, if it's like you
need a carbonated drink, well,maybe you can drink, you know, a
bubble water of some kind withlemon or something.
(22:38):
Or, you know, have a decafcoffee with some healthy fats
you put in it or something.
There's ways you know to havethese enjoyable rituals that
have to deplete you.
I mean, we help our patientswith that all the time, right?
But yeah, the, the, the cravingthing is real, you know, and
there there can be other toolssometimes, you know, for example
, hypnotherapy.
(22:58):
There's some good resultspeople can get for cravings from
that.
I think I encourage people tostart with the experiment.
See how you'll just try it alittle bit, and then the
awareness begins to grow andthen the motivation begins to
set in.
Nika Lawrie (23:14):
Yeah, I think that it's the momentum piece.
I know for me, one of thethings that I did when I was so,
I used to drink this.
Before I was kind of gettinginto functional medicine and
nutrition, I used to drink aStarbucks drink every day and I
think it.
I mean, it's appalling when Ithink about it now, but it had,
I think, 64 grams of sugar in itand it was like you know, and
(23:37):
it was my breakfast everymorning.
I'd get it on the way to workevery morning, my breakfast
every morning.
I'd get it on the way to workevery morning and for me, I gave
my husband credit, my creditcards.
So I couldn't buy anything for acouple of weeks, like that was
my you know kind of put myselfin credit card jail so that I
couldn't spend the money, andthen I did a timer on my phone
(23:58):
like a day counter, and so Ikind of like you would do for
like AA or something right, yeah, give me some credit yeah
exactly, and you know I'm in thethousands of days now and I
still keep it going because it'sjust a reminder of like how far
I've come.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (24:14):
Yeah, and you can feel so proud of that
and like, yeah, compare back andnow it's not hard.
It was hard at the beginning,you know.
Nika Lawrie (24:19):
Yeah, and when you see those, you know thousands of
days.
You don't want to break thatand go back to zero again so it
can keep your kind of momentumgoing.
I think that momentum is areally big piece.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (24:30):
I would totally agree.
I totally agree and I think youknow for anybody I'm sure you
do this as well but like whenyou are starting to work on
changing the diet, like we don'tstart with the hardest thing,
right, you start easy things andthen at some point we do come
up against that, that that youknow that drink I do every day,
that I have you know it'scausing you trouble you know?
Nika Lawrie (24:57):
Yeah, so you mentioned a minute ago about
like a fungal overgrowth orthings like that.
Can you talk about you know howour gut impacts, like the
gut-brain connection and likehow the functioning of our gut
and the bacteria in our gutreally influences the way our
brain is working and how we'refeeling, our moods throughout
the day too.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (25:15):
Yeah, it's really amazing how powerful that
connection is and I think wejust are really still scraping
the surface of what we know.
That I mean the research.
Every day there's new papersabout gut microbiome and the
connection to any disease, anyillness, but so much mental
health is connected to this.
So there's several ways thatthe gut impacts our brain.
(25:36):
So first of all, there's thenutrition and digestion piece,
the nutrient absorption.
If we're not getting thesenutrients into the body, even if
we're eating them, if they'renot getting absorbed, then we're
not benefiting from them.
So the gut has a huge roleright there.
And if we don't have these keynutrients, I mean, why do they
matter for the brain?
(25:56):
Well, this is what things arebuilt out of and how they're on.
So I tell people like you know,if the hardware isn't working
like you're not going to, evenif you try to change your
thoughts the software likeyou're going to have trouble.
You have to have healthyneurons.
So you need your amino acidsfrom those from your proteins,
(26:17):
and you'll be able to breakprotein down and get those
because you makeneurotransmitters out of right.
You need your healthy fats.
The brain is like largely fat.
Yeah, a lot of that right andimportant hormones that are
impacting how we feel are madefrom fat as well.
So there's that piece.
And then you mentioned thebacteria, so the microbiome,
(26:37):
that's all the bugs living inand on us, right, mostly
bacteria, but also viruses andsometimes even protozoa or, you
know, helminths.
Historically we usually hadsome parasite load.
It's interesting it's changed.
But, like how we and fungus, soyeasts as well, and the
(27:00):
majority of this microbiome isin the gut and the majority
actually in the large intestine.
And these bacteria primarilyI'll talk about do a huge number
of jobs for us.
They're breaking down all kindsof things and freeing up the
nutrients and antioxidants.
They they'll even likesequester medications.
They do really interestingthings.
(27:21):
They do a lot of detoxification, um, so we and we co-evolved
with this.
We're supposed to have this.
Basically, a whole other organof bacteria there weighs about
two to three pounds.
If you were to add up all thebacteria doing all this work for
us and we wanted doing theright jobs and when we don't
have the right balance ofbacteria, then they can't do
those good things for us.
(27:41):
They can't make these wonderfulthings called short chain fatty
acids, that fueling a wholehealthy microbiome and helping
our whole system.
They can't make the right kindof anti-inflammatory messengers
called cytokines that arehelping calm inflammation.
They can't make someneurotransmitters like they make
GABA, which is the calmingneurotransmitter right.
(28:03):
So if you don't have them, theycan't do it.
And then if you've gotovergrowth of the wrong kind of
bacteria, they're producing allkinds of inflammatory messengers
and they are blockingdetoxification in certain ways.
So that balance really, reallymatters.
I mentioned that they canproduce these different
compounds.
(28:24):
These get absorbed into theblood, travel through the body,
go to the brain like theneurotransmitters I mentioned,
but they also, amazingly, cantravel up the vagus nerve rain
into our abdomen and our chestand innervates all our organs
there and is in charge ofdigestion and in charge of
(28:46):
slowing your heart rate, slowingyour breathing.
It is actually amazing to methat these chemicals can do this
thing called chemotaxis andtravel up the nerve.
So there's more than one waythat they're getting to your
brain and impacting it andthey're supposed to be.
Like I said, we co-evolved withthese bacteria.
This is supposed to behappening and when it's out of
balance it can cause so muchtrouble.
(29:06):
So there's cool studies, forexample, taking like mice that
are anxious and mice that arenot anxious, and you take the
microbiome you know through likea fecal transplant from the
anxious place and put it in thenon-anxious mice and they become
anxious.
Yeah, all these studies showingthe role just the microbiome,
but you know they didn't changethe diet of these mice or their
(29:27):
environment, it was just thebacteria.
Nika Lawrie (29:29):
Yeah, I actually I saw someone this is a while ago,
but someone do, they wereactually doing it and I let me
preface this before I say it,that I don't recommend people
doing this on their own.
Definitely see a physician,talk to people, you know, figure
out what's going to be safe andbest for for you.
(29:50):
But I saw someone who it wassome kind of documentary, it's
been a couple years now whereshe had severe depression, where
it was causing suicidalthoughts, and so she actually
did a fecal matter transplantfrom I think it was her
boyfriend or brother orsomething like that, where she
(30:10):
actually blended it and put itinto capsules and took it, yeah,
and it completely it removedher like depressive issues, it
removed her suicidal thoughts,and so you know it was a
personal experience, it was herown thing.
So again, you know it's a verydelicate, not our medical advice
(30:30):
right now, but it makes thepoint right.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (30:32):
Yeah, these microbiome, they're highly,
highly influential.
Nika Lawrie (30:37):
Yeah.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (30:38):
It just in all areas.
I mean, there was a great studycame out a few years ago with
fecal transplants and autism andthe dramatic difference there,
right, yeah, I mean so muchbrain connection to the gut and
I think, like I said, I thinkwe're still just scratching the
surface of that.
Nika Lawrie (30:54):
Yeah, absolutely what.
Share your thoughts on hormonebalancing, especially for women?
I hear story after story ofwomen who are struggling with
brain fog and anxiety anddepression and you name it Right
.
And then they go and theyfinally get their hormones
balanced, especially those in umkind of perimetopause or
menopause phase, Right?
And then it's like the cloudsclear and the sun comes out and
(31:18):
they're like, oh my gosh, I canfunction again, I feel some joy
again.
The sun comes out and they'relike, oh my gosh, I can function
again, I feel some joy again.
What?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (31:29):
are your thoughts on hormones and hormone
replacement therapy and kind ofbalancing all of that?
Yeah, I think my thoughts arewhat you just said, which is
hugely influential.
I definitely see people all thetime with premenstrual symptoms
, like even premenstrualdysphoric disorder, which is
like the more severe form oflike sadness or irritability,
your mood swings before theperiod, and we see that estrogen
(31:50):
progesterone imbalance and whenyou can resolve that, their
life can be completely different, so much better.
And I absolutely see theeffects of menopause all the
time, so much better and Iabsolutely see the effects of
menopause all the time.
Treating that with hormones,like with, for example,
progesterone my gosh, it's likethe magic sleep aid for
(32:10):
postmenopausal women.
It's so great when that's whatthey need because it makes such
a difference.
But hormones are hugelyimpactful and I think women have
been underserved in this areaAbsolutely and I think this
service you know in the sense ofthe Women's Health Initiative
study, like 20 years ago, thisgreat book on that Estrogen
Matters.
I recommend people read if theywant to know that story.
(32:32):
But, like, hormones are veryimportant and when they're out
of balance or you don't have theright amount, you can suffer
greatly and it's not just thehormones.
Right, a lot of the thingsimpact the hormones.
So, again, the microbiome Imentioned detoxification can be
blocked by certain bacteria.
Well, estrogen can absolutelybe recycled in the body instead
(32:55):
of excreted.
When you have bacteriaproducing this enzyme called
beta-glucuronidase, that willundo what the liver had just
done to try to get rid of theestrogen.
So you have to attend to thewhole picture, right?
Insulin, like blood sugar, isgoing to affect your hormones
thyroid you have to look at theother hormones too.
But I agree totally.
(33:17):
They are massively importantand when we get those balanced
it can be a game changer.
Nika Lawrie (33:23):
Absolutely so I want to go into we've kind of
talked about the kind of bigpicture of you know how this can
impact us and how you know howthings are sort of working.
But I want to talk about somepractical solutions, and maybe
you can touch on your naturalmood solution program too.
I'm like what are somepractical lifestyle changes that
(33:43):
we can start implementing todaythat'll start improving our
mood and hopefully helping ourmental health too?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (33:51):
Yes, it begins with really fundamental
things and I wanna just say,before I list these off, that I
don't want people to getoverwhelmed.
The real important thing is tojust start with one thing and
take baby steps and just knowthat these absolutely add up.
There's just this wonderfulsynergy.
So if you first start going tobed at a good time so that you
(34:13):
can prioritize your sleep Now Iunderstand some people have real
trouble sleeping, so I'm nottalking about that.
But for those who are just kindof ignoring their sleep and not
making sure they get enough butthey could that's a place to
start right there.
That's hormones.
That's going to set blood sugarsensitivity.
Insulin sensitivity is soimportant.
When you don't get enough sleep, the brain doesn't have a
(34:33):
chance to detoxify.
That's the only time when ithappens is overnight, so you've
got to attend to that.
That's a good basic first placeto start.
Then you know, when it comes tonutrition, we talked about the
standard American diet.
So starting to make somechanges where you know if you
see there's some kind ofprocessed food you're eating,
all the time trying to come upwith a better option for that,
(34:54):
focusing on nutrition like whatis this food giving me?
Sure you're getting healthyfats like avocado oil or coconut
oil or olive oil, and not theseindustrial seed oils like
canola oil that we were talkingabout.
Eating a wide variety of therainbow of fruits and vegetables
(35:16):
, that's going to give you allsorts of important compounds
that feed your microbiome theright way and making sure you're
getting adequate protein ineach meal so that your blood
sugar will be stable.
That right there, those stepswhich you don't you're not going
to do all that at once, but inthose steps are going to have a
humongous impact.
When you've got that foundationlaid, you can you want to start
(35:37):
thinking about supplementing forthe things that you can't get
enough of, and and that's youknow.
In my online program, theNatural Mood Solution, we go
into a lot of detail about thatand that's an educational
program.
For hey, how can you addressthese overlooked underlying
physical causes of anxiety anddepression?
That is really missing in thesoil at this point.
(36:04):
There's been a lot of depletion, so we don't get it in our food
, and adding some magnesium canmake the world of difference to
your sleep quality.
It helps a lot of people withanxiety, helps their bowel
function.
It helps hormone production,helps a lot of things.
Nika Lawrie (36:19):
Do you have a specific version of magnesium?
I don't like which one.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (36:26):
There are many forms of magnesium.
You know I don't like which one, which one.
There are many forms ofmagnesium, so I, for anxiety, I
really love magnesium glycinateand you know, if you're a little
more stopped up then I wouldsay magnesium citrate.
You still absorb the magnesiumin that case, but it'll help you
have more regular bowelmovements, which is critical for
toxifying and for a healthymicrobiome.
(36:46):
You have to be having dailybowel movements, so that's
really really important.
So magnesium is a good one tosupplement with.
And then there's a few otherareas I would recommend
supplementation to.
Nika Lawrie (36:58):
And the big ones I usually try to mention.
I know you mentioned omega-3earlier, but I think we're so
deficient in omega three becauseof the diet, and then vitamin D
, DK a combination there.
Do you have thoughts on either?
I know omega three definitely,but yeah 100% agree.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (37:14):
And there's tons of research on omega threes
and their anti-inflammatoryrole and their antidepressant
role.
And unless you're eating likehigh omega three fish, like four
times a week, you're notgetting enough.
Um, you know, people will say,oh, I have flax seed or chia
seed.
Well, you, you convert almostnone of that, like 2%, to the
omega-3s in the form we need.
(37:34):
So you really need tosupplement if you're not getting
them from the fish.
And, um, yeah, that's hugely,hugely important and makes a
massive difference to how peoplefeel.
It takes a few months to feelthat because, kind of, do an oil
change on your body?
It takes time.
Nika Lawrie (37:49):
Yeah, but I love that.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (37:52):
I didn't coin that, I learned that from
my teachers, but like it'sreally true, it takes time to
replace these different lipidsand these different membranes
and and it, but it really makesa difference.
Nika Lawrie (38:00):
Yeah.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (38:01):
And vitamin D yeah, huge.
Like you know, I was justlistening to a wonderful lecture
, dr Greenblatt, talking aboutsuicide risk and like what
really matters for this and theresearch in what raises risk.
And it's really interesting andone of these was and some of
this research is done by themilitary that vitamin D levels
(38:23):
under 15, people had 50% highersuicide risk.
I mean, vitamin D is criticalfor so many things.
You probably know it's actuallya hormone.
It's so important for immunefunction so that means it's
going to affect inflammationAgain, that common pathway,
right.
So getting your vitamin D up atleast to 30, but optimally more
(38:43):
like 50 or 60, really makes ahuge difference.
And then the other one that wehaven't talked about is B
vitamins.
That's the other.
I think with mood, that'sreally really, really important.
Folate was a B vitamin.
That's very important and forsome folks they really need
extra support around folatebecause they're genital.
(39:04):
And the other one I would sayis B12.
People, as they age, they can'tabsorb B12 as well.
And then, of course, vegansaren't getting it in their diets
.
They have to supplement, butfixing people's B12 levels can
be a game changer.
And B complex you need theother Bs too.
Nika Lawrie (39:25):
Yeah, that's what my mom always talks about
getting her her bee shots andshe loves it.
She's like I always feel somuch better and it makes you a
lot, right?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (39:33):
Yeah, it must be important if it feels so
good.
Nika Lawrie (39:36):
Yeah, it's huge, definitely.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (39:38):
Yeah, and you know people are on
medications that are depletingthese vitamins and aren't
informed of that.
I mean, I can think of apatient who was on metformin,
which is a pretty usefulmedication for blood sugar, kind
of one of the better ones outthere but it's notorious for
depleting B12.
(39:58):
I never told her and she hadall these health improvements on
the metformin, but after like ayear on it she was so depressed
and I was like, did anyone tellyou you need to take B12?
Nope, and then within a week oftaking B12, she felt like a new
woman.
So these things matter a lot.
Nika Lawrie (40:14):
Yeah, yeah.
One of the other questions Ihad for you is asking about your
advice for people who may bestruggling on their kind of
health journey.
I know you've gone through thatjourney as a practitioner, as a
physician, right Like goingfrom traditional to more
functional medicine approach.
Do you have advice for thepatients who are struggling to
(40:37):
get the answers or the supportor the care that they need from
traditional, and how to approachthat?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (40:43):
Yeah, that's actually why I created my
course, because I think that youknow, first of all, there
aren't enough functionalmedicine physicians out there
and it's hard to get themaccessible for everybody, and
it's also not what everybodyneeds.
I mean, not everyone needs likethe full detective work.
They need some fundamentals andsome foundational stuff, and
they'll get a lot of people, geta lot better from that, and so
(41:05):
that's the gap that I saw and Ifelt.
You know, I want people to beable to get the education that's
going to help them helpthemselves.
So that's.
You know, my program, theNatural Mood Solution, is really
all about looking at thefoundations, the fundamentals of
that supplementation ofanti-inflammatory, nutrient
dense diet, of blood sugarregulation, digestion, and then
(41:28):
some about avoiding toxins anddetoxifying.
This is the place to start, Ifeel like, and you baby step
your way into making changes andthen it really adds up, and
then if you've gotten a lotbetter but you have certain
things that aren't better, thatmay be the time to then find a
practitioner and go deeper.
But that practitioner will beso happy that you've already
(41:49):
taken all those steps.
That's hard, yeah, because youhave to do that stuff.
You can't bypass that.
Nika Lawrie (41:57):
Yeah, definitely.
One thing is I didn't bring updetoxification and toxics or
toxins very much in thisconversation, or really at all.
I talk about it so much inother shows and so I think a lot
of listeners know about that.
But just to touch on it beforewe close out today the
connection to mental health andwell-being what is your take on
(42:20):
that or advice you have?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (42:22):
You know, my take on it is, the longer I'm
learning and practicing, youknow, I really I feel like maybe
it was about two years agowhere I just was suddenly like
you know what it all comes downto toxins and trauma.
That's what it feels like to me.
Nika Lawrie (42:35):
It is right yeah.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (42:36):
In a way, that's a very incendiary
combination and, in a way,toxins are just another trauma.
So, yeah, toxins can be a lotof things.
Right, it could be hormonedisrupting chemicals, um, you
know, from pesticides, frompersonal care products.
You know, it sounds like you'vebeen doing a great job of
education your listeners aboutthat, which is I try every day.
Nika Lawrie (42:56):
Every day I'm like it's everything right.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (42:58):
Or, you know , from your water or your food
and obviously we can't control.
We can't control of all our airand stuff.
But there are things that arein our control and that's what's
worth working on, but also moldtoxicity.
This is something,unfortunately, is really common
and totally missed by mostpeople.
Yeah.
Nika Lawrie (43:19):
I have an interview I just did last week that's
about to come out, all aboutmolds and the impacts on our
health.
It's so important.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (43:27):
So that's a big driver of people's
depression and anxietyabsolutely can be from that.
They usually have othersymptoms as well.
But absolutely don't think thatI mean you've gone over it in
that episode, so I won't go deepinto it, but I see it all the
time, I treat it all the time.
It's a big deal.
Making sure you're not livingin mold is one of the best
things you can do for yourhealth.
And then, yeah, we talked aboutendocrine disrupting chemicals,
(43:53):
heavy metals also a bigcontributor, right, we know
mercury, lead these things canbe ruinous to the brain and
these are part of in theresearch that Dr Dale Bredesen's
done on Alzheimer's, forexample.
You know, you see that some ofthese patients have quite a bit
(44:14):
of heavy metal.
There's a lot of disease there.
They'll find that infections or, you know, problems with blood
sugar.
There's many contributingfactors, but these metals are an
issue for brain health as well.
So toxins absolutely play arole, and a big part of the way
they play the role too is theirimpact on the microbiome and
that with the Roundup, you knowif they're killing off your good
(44:35):
bacteria, that's, you know, andthey're just blocking different
things in the body that thebody can't work right when you
know this metal is taking theplace of some other thing that
should be there.
Nika Lawrie (44:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I have two questions for youto close out the show.
Before I get to those, is thereanything that we haven't
touched on today that you wouldwant to share, or any kind of
advice or tips or anything thatyou might have that we haven't
touched on?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (45:06):
This one thing that I think we were
mentioning these differentnutrients.
I want to mention one moreimportant nutrient.
That's zinc.
Zinc is another one that Ithink people are often very,
very low on.
I test people and I see peoplelow all the time, and that can
have a lot to do with brainfunction as well.
So I want to mention that and Iwill say too.
(45:26):
I'd like to say a little moreabout blood sugar, because, I've
said several times, blood sugaraffects anxiety.
But I want to just explain thatwhen people eat a higher
carbohydrate meal or they havetrouble managing the
carbohydrates because they'vebecome insulin resistant,
they're like on thatpre-diabetes or diabetic path.
Maybe they have polycysticovarian syndrome, which is
(45:48):
another thing related to insulinresistance.
The blood sugar will spikeafter you eat that high carb
meal and then it will plummetand when it's dropping rapidly,
you will release adrenaline andthat cause you to feel anxious
and feel maybe shaky, not feelgood, and this can be happening
overnight.
I tested my people withcontinuous glucose monitors and
(46:10):
we see that this is a majorcause of their waking up at 2 am
or 3 am.
So that's a big one that can befixed.
Nika Lawrie (46:17):
That's so huge.
I put out a social media post acouple months ago.
I had eaten something that washeavy in white rice rice and I
wear a continuous glucosemonitor on and off, and so I was
able to track it, and you knowI'm pretty careful about that
stuff, but so even for me itspiked quite a bit and then it
(46:38):
crashed really hard in themiddle of the night and I woke
up in the middle of the night,and so I was able to find those
exact connections right Betweenthe blood sugar dropping heavily
from that you know glucosespike that I had from the rice,
and then it wakes me up and thenyou know it takes a long time
for your body to fall asleep andthen you're tired the next
morning and then you want sugarand it's just this whole spiral,
(47:01):
kind of thing, it's just cycleright.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (47:02):
Yes, cycle right.
It's so hard to fall asleepbecause there's all this
adrenaline running through yourbody and it's such a powerful
thing to have people realizelike, oh, that's why it's
happening and here's what we cando to change it, and it's
really treatable.
So I think just really, really,blood sugar is huge, and
running around with a high bloodsugar all the time also is
associated with depression.
So that's a major cause ofinflammation in people and it's
(47:25):
something we can do so muchabout.
So just want to reiterate thatthat's something really worth
working on.
Nika Lawrie (47:31):
Yeah, absolutely Well.
Thank you so much for justsharing all of this knowledge.
I'm so grateful for it.
I think it's so importanteducate as many women as
possible about like there arethings that you can do that are
in your own hands.
You know within grasp that youcan do to really feel better,
both mentally and physically.
(47:52):
So I'm always so grateful tohave individuals like you
experts come on and just sharetheir knowledge.
So thank you very much andthank you for the work you're
doing.
I just want to commend you forthat, cause I think it's so
important.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (48:01):
Thank you for that, and I agree with you,
that's my same.
Passion is like getting peopleto know there's so much you can
do and it's so hopeful.
Yeah, yeah, it's reallyempowering.
Nika Lawrie (48:11):
Yeah, the hope is there, for sure, definitely.
So, before we close out, canyou share, where can listeners
find you and connect with youand anything that you would want
to share in that sense?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (48:22):
Yeah.
So first I have a nicelydigestible bad pun free gift.
It's called the Top 10Overlooked Causes of Depression
and Anxiety, and that's reallyeasy to find.
It's at drtracymccarthycom,backslash top 10.
That's T-O-P and then thenumber 10.
Nika Lawrie (48:42):
I'll put it in the show notes, just to make it easy
.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (48:44):
Yeah, because I encourage people to
check that out, because thattalks about some of these things
we've mentioned and this iswhere you can start really easy,
like here's some ideas andthat's just easy to take action
on.
And then I'm on Instagram atDrTracyMcCarthy, and then my
practice website in NorthernCalifornia it's
DrTracyMcCarthycom.
My program that I mentioned,the Natural Mood Solution, is at
(49:13):
naturalmoodsolutioncom.
But if you get that top 10guide, it'll also kind of lead
you through more information andeventually, more information on
the course, if it's somethingyou're looking for.
Nika Lawrie (49:18):
Perfect.
Everything will be in the shownotes, make it as easy as
possible for people to find you,and I really I encourage
listeners to reach out and checkout her course, because I think
this information is soimportant, especially if you're
dealing with any type of mentalhealth issue for sure.
So, dr McCarthy, I have onelast question for you today that
I ask all listeners, or allpeople I interview what is
(49:39):
something inspiring that you'veeither experienced or learned
that you would like to sharewith the world?
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (49:52):
I'm going to share a book that I love, that
part of what really changed mythinking.
I'm going to grab it.
Since we also here, it's righthere on my bookshelf.
For those who are on thepodcast and watching the video
this is called Nutrition andPhysical Degeneration by Dr
Weston A Price.
This is a dentist who did allthis research in the 1930s.
He's the one who discoveredwhat became known as vitamin K.
Yeah, yeah.
(50:13):
In the book.
It's all called Activator X, butthis book changed my life
because this is him and his wifetraveling the world looking at
different peoples that have notyet been exposed to Western
foods and looking at the rate ofcavities and their rate of
malocclusion, which is like whatwe would call now you would
need braces if you havemalocclusion and the dramatic
(50:35):
difference with when they'reeating their traditional foods
and then when the Western dietis introduced.
These people did not havecavities and did not need braces
before these things happenedand that really changed my life
to understand that we are meantto be healthy really, and so
where's the mismatch with ourenvironment now that is leading
(50:56):
to that and that's where we canintervene.
But the book is justfascinating and there's all
these cool pictures and you goeverywhere in the world and
they're eating very, verydifferent diets in these
different places, but thesediets all meet the nutritional
needs that you know that aresadly, our standard American
diet is falling so short on.
So to me it was a veryinspiring and fundamentally kind
of paradigm changing book.
Nika Lawrie (51:18):
You know, it's funny about him and the journey
that he went on.
One of the things that reallystrikes me now is whenever I see
, you know, like, think aboutanthropology and ancient humans
and you see the skulls with theteeth that still remain, and the
teeth are like you know,they're formed perfectly, just
like if you'd had braces.
(51:39):
Yet they didn't have braces,and so why is that so different
now and what is happening?
And so it really helps youthink about the struggles that
current human bodies are goingthrough and the difference over
time.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (51:55):
Yeah, I found it extremely
thought-provoking that way andit just really stayed with me.
I think it always shifted myworldview.
Nika Lawrie (52:03):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you again so much forcoming on the show.
I'm so grateful.
I really appreciate you.
Dr. Tracy McCarthy (52:07):
Well, it's been a real pleasure.
Thank you so much for having.
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