October 31, 2023 • 55 mins
Flamy Grant is the first drag queen to ever top the iTunes Christian singles and albums charts! Flamy's story isn't just about music; it's about resilience and authenticity in the face of adversity and online trolling. It's about refusing to compromise on true identity despite societal pressures. If you grew up evangelical christian, you won't want to miss this episode.
It this episode Flamy takes us deeper into her personal life, exploring her battles with religious trauma from evangelicalism and her journey into the transformative world of drag. Hear how Flamy uses this platform to express herself and challenge gender stereotypes, even in spaces where acceptance is hard to find. And that's only the tip of the iceberg. She's got the best advice I've ever heard for dealing with haters and trolls online.
We dive into Flamy's creative process and the nostalgic elements in her music, the struggle of reconciling faith with sexuality and gender identity, and her role as a queer voice in the evangelical space. We end with a heart-touching discussion of her song 'Holy Ground,' a song that unveiled part of Flamy even before the creation of Flamy herself.
She also set a record for being the first guest to ever make my cry on my podcast. Grab a tissue box y'all!
Referenced in this episode:
Here’s the video with the woman freaking out about candles at Bath & Body Works
Flamy’s favorite song is 'Holy Ground'
Flamy’s new single 'Fortune Teller' is OUT NOW everywhere you like to listen.
Connect with Flamy:
Website: flamygrant.com
Get on the best email list for building your confidence, sign up and receive my free 21 Sassy Affirmations for Confidence
Got a guest nomination, question, or topic idea? Email podcast@coachalexray.com
Get the inside scoop, join the Instagram Broadcast Channel 🦄
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Coach Alex Ray (00:00):
Hello, my unicorns.
Welcome back to another specialguest episode.
Today I am so excited to havewith me Flamy Grant.
She's a shameslaying,hip-swaying, singing,
songwriting, drag queen makingChristian music.
That speaks directly to herexperience as a queer person and
(00:20):
you're going to just learn allthe most amazing tips from her
today.
So welcome, Flamy, to the QueerConfidence podcast.
Flamy Grant (00:29):
Thank you.
Tips on tips, I'm really happyto be here.
Coach Alex Ray (00:34):
I'm so happy to have you.
Also, I'm so proud of myselffor not totally fumbling your
tongue twister intro.
Flamy Grant (00:41):
I know.
I didn't make it easy, but younailed it.
You nailed it.
Coach Alex Ray (00:46):
Oh, my God.
Well, I think we got to startwith the.
We got to start with theobvious.
For anyone that knows you, theyknow you've topped the
Christians and by that we meanyou are the first drag queen to
ever top the iTunes singleChristian singles and iTunes
(01:08):
Christian albums, and your albumwas there for a while.
Flamy Grant (01:13):
It was there for nine days.
I topped for nine days.
You know how exhausting that is.
I can't even imagine Me neither.
This is the first time I'veever topped anything.
So there you go.
Coach Alex Ray (01:29):
Oh, my God.
Okay, well, tell us about, tellus a little bit about the
journey.
What was that like, being beingon top for so long?
Flamy Grant (01:38):
It was wild and very unexpected.
My hope, with this whole, allthe shenanigans that happened
around, this was just a chart atall on the Christian charts and
so I thought that would be awin.
Like, let's just have a dragqueen, like show up on the
Christian charts period anywherein the top top 100, top 200.
(01:59):
I don't care.
Just to be able to say thatthere was a drag queen on the
Christian charts would be huge.
But I, the sales caught windgirl, I don't know Like people
lashed on to the story andTikTok was very good to me and
folks went out and downloadedthe record, they downloaded the
(02:19):
single and I mean within 24hours both had hit number one
and then, yeah, like we said,the album stayed there for quite
a while.
I was the literal face ofChristian music on iTunes for
over a week, which is crazy,crazy.
Coach Alex Ray (02:36):
I kept going on to check and I just every time I
was like please be there,please be there please be there,
yes.
So crazy, oh my gosh.
It was so fun to see you thereand it was also really funny
when the I found out about itthrough Instagram, I think, like
(02:56):
the Hillcrest account posted ohyeah, yeah.
And I was like, oh my God.
And then I started looking intoyou and I was like, oh my God,
I met her.
Flamy Grant (03:07):
Hold on, we did a whole gig together.
Coach Alex Ray (03:10):
We had a conversation, we hung out
backstage.
Yeah, me and my underwear, youand your like in your full In my
leotard.
Yes, you were in your leotard.
You were in your leopard printrainbow leotard, my Lisa Frank
fantasy.
Flamy Grant (03:28):
Yes, and Bervain made that for me in the Palm
Springs and I wear that anychance I get.
Coach Alex Ray (03:34):
It's so gorgeous .
Well, for those that don'treally know the drama that led
to you topping the charts,because I really think that that
was also like a big reason whyI wanted to have you on the
podcast, because the way thatyou showed up, I think, is a way
that all of our unicorns herecan live, all of our unicorns
(03:57):
here can learn from and reallyimprove their confidence in how
they might address thingsthemselves.
So let's talk about Sean.
Flamy Grant (04:10):
It sounds like a terrible, like HBO miniseries
title.
It really does Well.
So yeah, Sean Foyt is theperson of interest at the moment
and if you don't know who, thisis good for you.
Coach Alex Ray (04:25):
If you do.
Flamy Grant (04:27):
If you do, it means you probably caught wind of his
name, either either throughthis story, which made national
headlines, or, more likely, acouple of years prior in the
middle of pandemic Sean Foyt,who is a self-described Mago
worship leader.
Whatever that means, it soundsculty and horrifying.
(04:50):
He was the one going aroundduring pandemic and holding
these big worship services outin public with just hordes of
people unmasked, while the restof us were like kind of watching
on in horror and saying, ok,cool, so like what percentage of
that crowd is going to be deadin a month, like that's, that's
(05:10):
that's how this disease isworking right now.
So anyway, sean, you know just,he just came for me on Twitter,
as all as people do, but it wasin a in response to some work I
had done.
I had collaborated with anothermusician, derek Webb, who back
in the day was in a bigChristian band that was called
(05:34):
Caidman's Call, and by back inthe day I mean when I was coming
up in youth group in churchyouth group.
So the 90s and early 2000s andDerek has, you know, since had a
solo career and is a reallygreat guy, good ally and a good
friend to me, and so we hadcollaborated on some music.
And Sean Foyt saw thatcollaboration and said, well,
(05:57):
this, this is the I think hesays, the end game and goal of
deconstruction, which, if youdon't know what that word is,
it's just kind of the buzzwordright now for, like, looking at
your inherited belief systems,ie religion, like, like looking
at your religion being like,okay, this is what was handed to
me and do I actually believe itand is it valuable and is it
(06:19):
good or is it doing more harm,those kinds of questions.
And so Sean was like, well,this is the end goal of
deconstruction.
A drag queen collaborating witha Christian musician, blah blah
, blah, blah, and which I knowright.
Coach Alex Ray (06:33):
Pausing on that for a moment is hilarious.
That that's like.
Flamy Grant (06:38):
That was that was what we were working towards
that we have made it.
Coach Alex Ray (06:42):
Y'all done, done , deconstruction over everyone.
Go back to what you were doing.
Flamy Grant (06:50):
This was the end goal and now we can chill.
I know, just like crazy, somuch crazy in the world.
But anyway, you know I am adrag queen and I do deal with
online trolls on the reg.
So I just responded cutely ohbaby, no, and cool, we're just
(07:11):
getting started.
And Sean came back and saidwell, good for us, nobody
listens to you or cares what youdo, which is like the cat-iest
thing.
Right, like that is such a likethat's mean, that is Rachel
McAdams and mean girls.
Coach Alex Ray (07:28):
Like like okay, honestly, if you're going to
come for a drag queen, you'vegot to have some creative
clackbacks.
Flamy Grant (07:35):
You do.
Coach Alex Ray (07:36):
Like.
No one likes you.
Flamy Grant (07:38):
Anyway is just just get ready and I would like to
think that maybe Sean will havelearned his lesson by now,
because I said, oh really, noone cares.
No one, sean, and you know, tobe fair, I did not have a big
(07:58):
Twitter following at the time.
So he probably like becausethis is where this exchange
happened was on Twitter or,excuse me, x, whatever, elon.
So he probably looked at myTwitter following and was like,
oh well, this person'sinconsequential, but that's
because I hate Twitter and neverinvested any time in it.
But I did have quite a decentfollowing on TikTok.
(08:21):
So that's where I went and Isaid, hey pals, guess what?
This thing just happened.
And here's what else is in play.
I have a record that I releasedlast year.
It is already sitting there inthe Christian genre, because
that's the genre I put it inwhen I chose to release my
independent album and it haddone fine.
I was really pleased with theperformance of my record as an
(08:44):
independent first time artist.
I've released music in the pastunder other names, but this was
Flamy Grant's first record andyou know it had done respectably
, and so I was like I would loveto see if there is a chance
that I just put out the play onTikTok, if there's a chance we
(09:05):
could get this record to charton the Christian charts.
And because it's there, I have asong that is quote unquote a
worship song.
Like there's a lot to talkabout in terms of what that
means for me and the song inparticular, but like it is, it's
a worship song.
I wrote it for the church Iused to be a part of.
And what if we got that song?
(09:25):
What if we got a worship songby a drag queen to chart after a
worship leader a Maga worshipleader like came for me online
and people really liked thatnarrative and I kind of
suspected they would, which iswhy I rolled the dice.
But wow, I never expected thatit would.
Yeah, just do what it did.
It was crazy.
Coach Alex Ray (09:44):
Yeah, you kind of like exploded there over the.
It was like a how many days wasit between Twitter and the
Twitter exchange and blowing upon iTunes.
Flamy Grant (09:56):
Literally the next day.
Coach Alex Ray (09:57):
Like it wasn't even.
Flamy Grant (09:59):
Yeah, it wasn't even a full 24 hours, oh my God.
Coach Alex Ray (10:02):
Yeah, so what an emotional rollercoaster, I
imagine.
Flamy Grant (10:08):
It was wild, it was so I was like I don't know what
to do.
I was like calling up friends.
I was like this feels like amoment, this feels like
something's happening.
Should I?
What do I do?
And they were like girl, get apublicist, do it, just do it.
And I was like, okay, I don'teven know how to do that, but
somebody knew somebody, thatkind of thing.
And so, yeah, I hired someoneto help and the story got out to
(10:33):
more outlets, media outletspicked it up.
I think I think PACE Magazinewas like one of the first.
Like I was so excited aboutPACE Magazine because it's like
the music nerd magazine, youknow, and I'm like, yes, like
that's the one I want to be in.
And then, like the next daywe're like Stone Cold and I was
like, oh, like shit myself Likeyeah.
(10:54):
So you know, and from there itwas like Newsweek and
Entertainment Weekly and NPR,like all these outlets, picked
up the story.
So it was a whirlwind.
I had to quit my job.
Two weeks early I was alreadyplanning to quit.
I had already put in my noticeI was quitting the job and
moving across the country and Iwas gonna start doing drag
(11:18):
full-time regardless.
That was already in the worksand then this happened and I'm
very glad it did, because it'smade it a lot easier to go into
full-time drag work after havinga little bit of a moment in
national press.
So it's been very helpful.
Thank you, Sean Foyt.
Coach Alex Ray (11:38):
Indeed Like what perfect timing for everything
too.
Yeah, crazy so.
Flamy Grant (11:45):
I mean, back in the day we would have said, oh,
it's just such a god thing.
Coach Alex Ray (11:48):
It's such a god thing.
Flamy Grant (11:50):
Yes, all in his timing, absolutely Time and a
place for everything, such atime as this.
Coach Alex Ray (12:03):
Well, I'm just I'm so happy for you and I'm so
glad that you were able to, thatall of these things lined up so
perfectly for you to reallyhelp launch your career into
full-time drag.
It's just incredible and I'm soproud of you and so happy for
you.
Flamy Grant (12:21):
Yeah, thanks so much.
Coach Alex Ray (12:23):
I'm curious, you know, for anyone listening,
what lessons have you learnedthat you could share with them?
Anyone that's listening, whomay have or may have been, is or
will be facing online bullyingor harassment yeah, and
basically, if you have asmartphone, you will probably
face online harassment at somepoint right in some.
Flamy Grant (12:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, you know I've beendealing with it for a while and
but like even before this wholething was Sean Foyte I had some
like success on TikTok and withthings going viral, on TikTok
also come trolls.
So I had been dealing with itfor a while and I really had
(13:08):
kind of worked through it to apoint where I know when it's
okay for me to respond and thatfor me, like that feels like I'm
responding purely for the joyof it, like because I know it's
gonna be a fun thing for me,right.
(13:30):
So I don't respond.
If I'm mad, like if it actuallygets under my skin.
If somebody, if a troll, comeson and says something and it
actually hurts or makes me angryor creates any kind of negative
reaction whatsoever, I don'trespond.
And I didn't always, like Iused to go in like right away
with my you know knee jerkreaction and that, and I learned
(13:50):
pretty quickly that thoseusually don't go very well
because I actually do.
I am invested in the outcome ofit, right, I wanna win like, I
wanna be right, I wanna shamethem or put them in their place
or whatever, and those are nevergreat reasons, I don't think,
to engage with another humanbeing.
I think it has to be a biggerlike you have to have.
(14:14):
I think one of two things haveto happen.
It has to be either be like onbehalf of a cause, or like a
group of people or someone else,someone like not just yourself
kind of thing, so that there'skind of that righteous anger
response.
I think that that's somethingthat can motivate us to do
really good things in the world.
Or for me, I, you know, I justI think I did a lot of internal
(14:40):
work to just like realize andremind myself daily that these
are very inconsequential thingsthat like these comments, like
they're not, they're notreflective of anything true
about me, because these peopledon't know me, they're only
speaking, it can only be aprojection, right, because
(15:00):
they've seen you know twoseconds of a video of me and
they've created this wholenarrative around who I am or
what they believe about me, andI'm like that can only be a
projection.
They know nothing about me, sothey're speaking from whatever
their own place of shame is ortheir own place of pain, and
it's not about me.
So, but when it is for me, likethe times I've, the times I
(15:24):
choose to respond now, areusually One of those two things
and, honestly, it's usually whenI'm just there to have a little
fun with it and I'm justcompletely detached from the
outcome, like I don't care aboutwinning with the person, so I
can just be like Silly orsubversive or whatever with it.
Yeah, which is kind of how Ifelt about the Sean thing
because, honestly, like myfriends were all Told me they're
(15:46):
like, oh my gosh, like Seanfoits coming for you, like, and
I was like who?
Like I genuinely did not.
And I remembered hearing aboutthis pastor in pandemic who is
holding these worship servicesand when I realized that's what
it was, I was like, oh okay,cool, but I didn't even realize
at the time, I think, that hehad like I think it's like a
hundred million followers orsomething like that, something
crazy, I know like how.
(16:08):
But so I just was.
I truly was detached from theoutcome of that.
I wasn't trying to, I Wasn'tlooking at it as an opportunity,
I wasn't looking at it asanything other than like how
silly that you like Think thiswas the, this is what we're
trying to do all along like no,no, no, we're just getting
(16:28):
started like we're.
This is.
Yeah, it was just a, it was aflip little response that I was
detached from.
So, yeah, that for me, I think,is a Just a good litmus test or
barometer of like, like, how,how invested am I right now and
am I?
Am I actually activated rightnow or my feelings?
Am I having negative responsesand reactions to what's going on
(16:49):
?
Or is this just something I canturn into an opportunity or
turn into a teachable moment orhonestly just have some fun with
?
Like that's fine too, but yeah,I think, at the end of the day,
just remember that most onlinebullying, especially coming from
people that you don't know it,can't be anything other than a
(17:10):
projection.
It can't actually be about youbecause they don't know you.
It's my one of my favoriteQuotes.
I think it's from her bookbossy pants, but Tina Fey was
talking about the internet andyou know the the flax she's
taken on the internet fordifferent things in her career
(17:31):
and I can't I can't quote itexactly.
I should probably have it on asticky note somewhere.
But she basically says in hervery Tina Fey way like the
internet is not a real thingthat you have to obey, like,
just like, let it go.
It's not real.
And I was like you're right,you don't have to obey strangers
on the internet, you can justlet them go.
Coach Alex Ray (17:54):
Yeah, and my god , you know, all of that is just
such a beautiful framework to.
I really like what you saidabout Projections and realizing
that that it cannot be anythingmore than that.
Flamy Grant (18:11):
Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (18:11):
I always talk about what I do In in my career
and online, or really my life,as it's art and so no matter
what people are going to haveopinions about it, but what
they're doing is they're justobserving art and it's
Triggering thoughts and feelingsin them and then they're
expressing that.
So I really never have anyControl over that, because we
(18:35):
don't have.
That's the point of art.
Flamy Grant (18:37):
Yes, it just sparks thoughts and feelings, and it
is, and it's going to be, anindividual response for every
single person.
Coach Alex Ray (18:44):
So and I really there's so much wisdom in what
you said about not responding inanger, because anger really
does just blind us.
To.
You can't respond in a In athoughtful way.
You're going you, even if youthink, oh great, I can go after
this person, like, if you areblindly angry, you are going to
(19:08):
fuck up, you're gonna trip up,and then you're the one that
looks like the idiot instead ofWaiting until you got to a place
where it's no longer sotriggering for you.
Flamy Grant (19:19):
So I just so.
I this morning I just rewatchedto the video.
Have you seen that?
But the woman who like here inherself, like she makes a video
about her trip to Beth and bedWas it Beth and body works or
bed, bath and beyond one of themOkay, she's trying to get
candles.
You haven't seen this one?
I don't think.
So tell me, gosh, it's like fourminutes long and it's just like
(19:42):
she went home and she set upher camera and like her good
lighting and she's like I have astory to tell you and she just
goes into this long saga abouthow mad she was that she called
Bed, bath and Beyond to makesure they had this candle and
she drove a really long way andshe's somewhere up north, so
it's like all the city names arefunny I can't remember.
(20:03):
Okay, it's like I can't remember, but it's just like, like her
tone and everything.
It's just, it's it's a perfecttheatrical experience and she
like the whole thing is justthat she got there and they made
a mistake, they didn't have thecandles and she was mad that
she drove all the way and shewas like I deserve to be
compensated for this and shejust goes off the rails and
she's, and the thing is she'slike clearly thought this
(20:25):
through and she's prettymeasured and pretty like she
doesn't lose control Really atany point.
A couple times she gets alittle into it and starts, you
know, yelling at the camera, butfor the most part so she thinks
that she has just likedelivered this like scathing
indictment of bed, bath andbeyond.
And she, and in particular oneCashier that she talked to,
(20:48):
called Jen, and every time shesays Jen's name she does air
quotes with her fingers, thoughJen's like not her real name or
something like it's.
So it's just like it.
You're watching this womandescend into absolute insanity
over these candles that Someonejust made an honest mistake over
right and it's just the mostdelightful.
(21:10):
Like Shodden Freudic experience,but anyway.
But all that to say?
Like that is exactly that, likeshe thought she was like doing
something and she's now thelaughing stock, you know.
Like everybody watches thatvideo and is like, oh my gosh,
you're like a nightmare humanand poor Jen at bed bath, and
(21:31):
like we all feel bad for Jen.
Like you're trying to get herfired and we feel bad for her.
So, yeah, yeah, you can't, youcannot have a you can't.
Responding out of your yourfeels is just not a great move.
Like take the beats, take theday, whatever you need to like
and come back to it.
(21:51):
And most likely, you'll comeback to it and remember that the
block button is your friend andyou'll just block the person.
And that's what I end up doingmost of the time with people who
genuinely get to me like I justdon't need that, I don't need
your energy, I don't need you onmy page.
Get out of here.
Coach Alex Ray (22:06):
Yeah, yeah, love that.
Okay, I want to transition herea little bit into talking about
your personal life outside ofdrag.
You are non-binary, I am.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your journey?
What's it been like tounderstanding your queer
identities?
Flamy Grant (22:27):
Hmm, yeah, so my like, um, I don't even know.
I feel like we don't even talkabout it in terms of sexual
orientation or preferencesanymore.
I feel like that's not what wesay.
But I'm old, I'm sorry, I'm anold gay.
So, like my, my sexual, mysexual orientation, like you are
not an old.
I mean when you have to likeGoogle what the kids are saying,
(22:52):
like when you have to get onurban dictionary.
I think you've crossed.
You've crossed a bridge, ohshit then I'm all too.
But that's the thing it like.
The world moves so fast and wegrew up so fast now because
we're also connected on socialmedia, so whatever, it's great,
I love learning from the kids,like I love it.
But for me, like my coming toterms with my Like sexual
(23:16):
orientation, like identifying asgay, was like a decade long
process.
In my 20s I like had to had tocome to terms with just even
being comfortable saying thatabout myself.
And then and I didn't startdating until I was 28.
I didn't, I didn't have sexuntil I was like 31, like I was
a late bloomer and and allthanks to religious trauma and
(23:37):
you know, indoctrinated shamefrom evangelicalism and all
these things, unfortunately fartoo well.
But yeah, so I really hadn'texplored gender identity or
expression Until I started tothink about drag more more
(24:00):
seriously.
And so it was.
It was a couple years beforepandemic that I really started
to get interested in drag and Ihad been Like a casual observer
for a while.
But you know, really like didthe deep dive of binging every
season of drag race and thatkind of stuff and like 20
probably like 2018 and 2019, andand then Pandemic came around
(24:21):
and I had I had gone out.
I think my first time in dragwas Halloween of 2019.
I did a fun little witch momentbecause it's very easy to do
drag on Halloween and it's safeand no one's gonna judge you
Exactly, yeah, but it's also thegateway, as we know.
So I was one of the.
I was I'm a combinationHalloween and quarantine Queen
(24:41):
because, like I knew I liked iton at Halloween.
But it's not like I had thetime.
I had a full-time job, I was inanother band.
Like I wasn't gonna I was nevergoing to like change my career
and become a drag queen.
That was not in the cards for mebut then you know, miss, miss
Rona Locked us all at home and Ihad hours and hours of free
(25:03):
time and I spent mine, you know,watching makeup tutorials and
learning to do drag, and so itwas that process for me that
really opened my mind to oh,like, am I, am I gender diverse?
Like, do I have some fluiditygoing on in me?
(25:25):
I think maybe I do, and it was.
It was a wild thing to kind ofdiscover Through like, through
drag because, you know you're, Iliterally was doing it just in
my bedroom by myself duringpandemic like, like for fun and
and and, honestly, for innerchild work is what it ended up
(25:45):
being for me, it was like welove your child work here.
Yes, mmm, mama, that that littlekid, you know Just being able
to hold the kid version ofmyself and say, hey, like all
those times you got in troubleor you got shoot out for
behaving in a certain way thatwas not befitting of a boy, or
you know, messing in your mom'smakeup or her closet, like,
(26:08):
you're okay, that stuff wasactually good.
Those impulses and instinctsare you and they're not like
your sin nature or your fallenstate or any of that bullshit.
Yes, it's just you and you'recoming back to yourself by doing
these things.
So it was like that first yearof drag was really just that for
me and we were.
I was live streaming and as aswe did during pandemic, so
(26:29):
that's where I mean my firstdrag performances quote, unquote
were we're on the internet?
I?
Coach Alex Ray (26:36):
Love that.
How fun to have that forjourney, because most drag
queens were like fumblingthrough.
How do I do Something on theinternet?
Yeah, and it wasn't workingwell for most of You've got the
opposite experience.
Flamy Grant (26:53):
You went from the figuring out the online first to
yeah, yeah, coming in personand that was a fumble for me,
like figuring out in person waslike this is a whole different
game, but yeah, it did.
It did just kind of give meinsight into myself and how I
Think I think so much of myanger actually came from having
(27:16):
feeling compelled to conform toTraditionally masculine
identities right, traditionallymasculine stereotypes in the
world, because that that wasn'tme, it's not, it's not how, it's
not my natural state, and so Iwas living in a very unnatural
way, even, excuse me, even aftercoming out and being, you know,
fully embracing my sexualityand, you know, getting married.
(27:39):
I got married in 2019.
So, like it's, you know, I'vebeen out and proud for a while,
but I had not identified that.
You know, there was this likeUntended part of my soul that I
had just been neglecting mywhole entire life out of shame
and out of, you know, beingindoctrinated to neglect it,
basically, and so it was reallybeautiful to Start writing songs
(28:03):
as flamey and use, use thatvoice and just see myself.
You know, all art is just takingwhat's Inside us and
manifesting it in some externalform right, whether that sound
or sculpture or paint orwhatever and drag is no
different.
It is an external manifestationof something that you're
experiencing internally, and ILove that.
(28:26):
You know drag was.
It was such a gift for me to beable to learn more about who I
am through that art form andStill you know every day getting
to do that.
Coach Alex Ray (28:37):
It's so beautiful.
Truly, thank you for sharingthat with us.
Playing with things that aretraditionally Assigned to the
opposite gender, I think, is sohelpful for anyone to just start
understanding yourself more,because until you start breaking
down those barriers especiallyif you're afraid of it, like I
(29:00):
was, like you're not going to IDon't know really understand why
you're afraid of it.
And then, if you're not afraidof it, great, play around with
it, have fun, and if it's notfor you, it's not for you, yeah.
Flamy Grant (29:14):
But more likely than not, it's going to.
It's going to reveal to you theways in which you are
performing your gender right,even like you, as us, like
speaking to you, it's a straightwhite man out there.
Like you're performing apercentage of the time right
Like almost almost nobody is100% John Wayne, right, like,
(29:36):
right like you.
There are other things that youfeel um, um, compelled to do or
say or behave or speak like, orwhatever, because it, it's an
expectation that's been put onyou because of, frankly, your
genitalia and and I Think thatthat is a huge gift of exploring
(29:58):
, just playing with you know,like put on nail polish, like
just once in your life, and walkaround for a day like as and
I'm obviously speaking to a Cis,straight white- male dude, dude
, right now, like put on nailpolish and walk around and see,
see how you feel, like, see whatinteractions it opens up for
you and you know just littlethings that can help you then
(30:21):
understand it's not going toturn everybody into a drag queen
and frankly we don't want thatbecause there's already enough
competition out here among theQueens, but, um, but what it
will do is it'll, it'll revealto you that, oh, like I Could
relax a little bit, like I don'thave to work so hard to hustle
for my acceptance in in mysocial circle and actually
(30:46):
actually maybe like leaning intomore authentic parts of myself
that I tend to suppress BecauseI think other people are gonna
judge me as being less masculineor less feminine, feminine or
whatever.
Leaning into those things canlike Make me a freer, happier,
more whole person, which thenjust it.
That that's magic that we don'thave words for, like we don't
(31:09):
have Barometers for, but it doessomething in your relationships
.
It opens up, it makes peopletrust you more deeply, it it
lets other people then respondin kind and it frees them.
Like you become an agent offreedom for other folks.
Like it's a, it's nudge, it'salchemy and, yeah, I think
(31:32):
everybody should deconstructyour gender, if not your faith,
at least your gender.
Coach Alex Ray (31:40):
I was literally going to loop it back to that.
I was like here we go, moredeconstruction.
See, music wasn't the end goal.
We have many things todeconstruct, yeah.
Get enriched on Literally justgetting started, baby.
Yes, oh my God.
I think another thing that itreally can do is give you a lot
(32:05):
of compassion for other peoplethat are also putting on a
performance, like when I go outfor networking events or anytime
that I'm leading a workshop,anytime that I am like on stage
in air quotes, literally orfiguratively, I dress all up.
I don't do a full face ofmakeup, I always do my eyes,
(32:30):
because that's my favorite partof makeup.
I do like the eyes of thenipples of the face.
Flamy Grant (32:37):
Sorry, I had to.
Coach Alex Ray (32:41):
So I got to show off my face, nipples.
Yes, you did, because I love itand it's like a piece of art.
I love that.
It's art that also is onlygoing to last for not even a
whole day, like it's there andit's gone.
Like what truer expression ofart?
It's like a sunset.
It's Every moment that goes byit's changing and then it's gone
(33:04):
forever.
It's only in our memory.
So, anyway, I love art.
So then I'll dress up and heels.
And when I got into wearingheels through, drag was the
gateway.
I did it for charity, you know,for the first time, and I had
been dying to be able to likeown heels, put on makeup and all
(33:27):
this stuff, and that was theexcuse.
But heels, the whole point ofthis fucking tangent I went on
was heels and drag.
I was like, oh my God, I have anew, extremely heightened
appreciation for drag queensafter having to have my junk
tucked up, my ass crack forseveral hours and then the Like
(33:56):
wearing heels.
I was like my feet are on fire.
So to everyone that wears heelson the rag, like how and like I
bow down right.
Flamy Grant (34:10):
Absolutely, it's wild.
I've devised a way around it inwhich I, you know, I'm a
singer-songwriter, so I'm alwaysbehind a guitar and a
microphone, usually when I'm indrag, and I now have
incorporated a stompbox into myset, so it's a pedal that you
(34:31):
stomp on that mimics a bass drum, so I get a little percussion
with my set button.
Now that it gives me the excuseto like wear flats on stage or
like boots you know, short heelboots or whatever because you
can't Like, you can't stomp onit in a stiletto.
It doesn't work.
Coach Alex Ray (34:47):
So I figured out my loophole.
Flamy Grant (34:52):
I love it.
Yes heels respect, much respect.
I still wear them but only forshort periods of time.
Coach Alex Ray (35:00):
And also like especially straight men.
You got to try some of thisstuff just so you can have
appreciation for the women whoyou're chasing and then
potentially making them feeluncomfortable, like they already
are physically so goddamnuncomfortable, and now you're
making them emotionallyuncomfortable, like just
(35:21):
compassion.
There's so much room forcompassion.
Flamy Grant (35:24):
Absolutely.
Coach Alex Ray (35:26):
I want to also ask you another question here.
Around your personal journey,how have you reconciled your
faith and your queer identities?
Why not just give it all up?
Flamy Grant (35:40):
That is a very good question and I think you might
get a different answer for medepending on the day right.
There are days when I definitelywant to give it all up and I
may one day still, you know,like that, who knows what the
future holds.
But why I met where I ammeaning, the reason I released
(36:08):
the record in the Christiangenre, the reason I've kind of
leaned into allowing myself tobe called a Christian drag queen
, even though it's complicatedfor me, you know.
But there's a handful ofreasons.
I would say the biggest one isjust purely representation
(36:30):
matters.
You know the power of presenceand I'm sure you can relate Like
there were very few instancesfor me growing up of seeing
anything positive associatedwith queerness, absolutely Even
beyond that.
Just like I just didn't evenknow what queerness is growing
up, you know, like I was sosheltered and so kept within our
(36:52):
little evangelical subculturethat it took a long time for
even knew what, like the wordsgay and lesbian were.
So for me it's knowing thatthere are still families out
there who are raising kids theway mine did, which for me was
really difficult and hard, toxic, created mountains of shame
(37:16):
that I had to work through laterin life.
You know all of these things,everything we've been talking
about so far, like stems from afear and shame based religion.
That was high demand.
So knowing that there that'sstill the case for many kids who
are coming up and knowing whatit is to be queer, and knowing
that there will always be queerkids coming up in the spaces, it
(37:41):
feels important, it feelsvaluable to me, it feels like a
thing I can offer the world.
To be someone who just, is loudand open and doesn't stays in
the space for now rather thanrather than desert it.
(38:04):
And to be clear, to be 100%clear.
I need people to know I saythis all the time like I fully
champion leaving.
I think that for a lot of people, leaving is the best option and
it's so hard to heal in theplace where you were harmed, yes
(38:24):
, and so getting out is a reallygood thing for a lot of people.
And so, whatever you want tocall it deconstruction, apostasy
I called it apostasy when I didit because we didn't have the
deconstruction term but like,follow your healing, follow
whatever is going to heal you.
So that's the one side of it,right.
(38:46):
And then the other is thatsometimes, for certain people
with certain dispositions and Icount myself among them I think
that we can stay, like if wehave the capacity to stay and
the desire to stay and theknowledge that our staying is
(39:06):
potentially going to save lives,like actually save lives, which
that's a message I've gottenmore than once now since all of
this stuff blew up.
People who've slid into my DMsconfessing suicidal thoughts or
previous suicidal thoughts untilliterally hearing my music,
which that's a humbling moment,like I never set out to write a
(39:31):
song to save a life, a lifeother than my own.
But that's the beauty of artand telling our stories and
being vulnerable and all of itis.
We can save more than our livessometimes.
So, for some of us, I thinkstaying can be a good path.
Coach Alex Ray (39:55):
Congratulations.
You're the only one that's evermade me cry on my own podcast.
Flamy Grant (39:59):
Oh no, and I hope they're starting to use.
So worth it.
Coach Alex Ray (40:06):
Well, you know, a large my upbringing was the
number one factor to me.
Attempting suicide, and I thinkthat's really what you know.
I told you even before westarted recording that like, for
some reason, this question waslike really like hitting an
(40:27):
emotional spot for me.
It was like I'll probably getemotional for it.
Here we go, but you know, Ithere is something so beautiful
to me about the art that you'recreating and the way that you
are being a queer voice in thespace that I did not have a
(40:52):
queer like superhero, you know,and I have worked through so
much in therapy around myattempt, and for me then, you
(41:13):
know, leaving the church wasreally the right decision.
It's still.
There's still positive memories.
Even though I have so much painaround my experiences in the
church, I still have happymemories of a sense of community
(41:33):
there.
Yeah, and what I, what I thinkis pulling so much emotion out
of me here, is that what I seefrom you is this, this or what.
What you're activating in me isthis feeling of like.
Okay, here's, like, all thegood parts about the community
that I experienced and that I'vemissed.
Flamy Grant (41:54):
Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (41:55):
With the acceptance that I longed for my
entire life.
I never felt like it and youdeserved yeah.
Flamy Grant (42:04):
Yeah, and it was stolen.
It was stolen from you, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (42:08):
I never felt like it was possible or
acceptable or like anythingwould happen other than me being
burned in hell and likeostracized so thank you, and
that's what.
Flamy Grant (42:23):
well, dear Rockham, thank you for making the space
available to have thisconversation.
I that's the thing that I thinkcan be really hard for people
who didn't maybe grow up insomething similar to understand
because, I get that a lot.
I get that question a lot likemy God, why are you catering to
(42:43):
this community that would, thatdoesn't give a shit about you,
that wants you dead, or that youknow is vilifying you in public
or like casting uh, passinglegislation against you?
Like why do you care what theythink?
And I'm like it's not that youknow it's, I'm not like, I'm not
out here chasing an approval.
I'll never get it's.
(43:05):
There's so many layers and youtouched on 18 of them just now
in what you said.
But you know, like it's, it's,it's a real like we, it's a real
part of our lives, like welived good periods, good chunks
of our lives and that wascommunity for us and that was
home and that was everythingthat.
(43:26):
The power of nostalgia.
Nowadays, you know, like, likeI think we're more aware than
ever of the power of nostalgiaand that's why shows get
rebooted and all this like yeah,it's, it's like it does
something to you, likephysiologically in your body, to
(43:46):
have those connections back toyour childhood and your
upbringing.
And the other part of it isthat we were raised being we
were raised with that fear ofwhat's going to happen to us if
we ever leave.
What's gonna?
You know we're gonna.
I genuinely believed I wouldwind up unconscious in a gutter
(44:06):
with a needle in my arm, likethat was.
That was the only futureavailable to me if I didn't
follow the letter of the lawthat was prescribed.
Yeah, and so it's.
There's so much you have to workthrough to, to, and that is
such an individual personaljourney and why.
I would never, ever tellsomeone that they're, you know,
(44:31):
not making the right choice byleaving or being selfish by
leaving.
No, leave, like, be selfish, go, go, take care of yourself and
put yourself first for the firsttime in your life, because I
guarantee you, if you're broughtup in evangelicalism, you
didn't, you did not.
You never knew what it was liketo care for yourself in any way
.
And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's.
(44:53):
I wish we could have more, evenjust within our own community,
more compassion for each other,for the ones who choose to stay,
whatever that reason may be, orfor the ones who choose to go.
Like, just like.
Let us all have our journeysand go where we need to go.
Coach Alex Ray (45:09):
Yeah, so beautifully said.
All right, I want to switchgears here and talk about a much
lighter note as we start towrap things up here.
Tell us about like what?
What is your favorite songyou've ever written or maybe
(45:31):
that's also hard to choose Like?
Is there a song or a few songsthat like really just like hit
deep?
Flamy Grant (45:40):
Yeah, it's very hard to choose because it is I'm
.
I like I think it was MindyKaling who said like best friend
is not a person, it's a tier,and I just like use that for
everything.
Like I don't have a favoriteone of anything, like I just
have like a whole tier offavorites.
Like I have 18 favorite movies,you know, and they're, and
(46:03):
they're all my number onefavorite.
So it's kind of that way for mymusic to.
But I guess I'll just talkabout there's a song on the
record called Holy Ground.
That's kind of a what is theword I'm looking for?
It's not a B side, but it'sjust more of a.
It's a low expectations kind ofsong.
Right, like you're notexpecting I don't know, like I
(46:24):
didn't, I didn't even didn'teven expect much from it.
When I recorded it I was likelike maybe kind of filler, like
is this a filler song?
Because because I, when I firstwrote it, I didn't know what it
was, I didn't know what it wasabout and I wrote it.
I actually think I wrote thiswhole thing before Flamy ever
existed.
So it's one of the ones andthere are a few songs on the
(46:44):
record that I had started towrite or had written prior to
Flamy existing, and thenrevisited them with Flamy's
voice, and I was like, oh, likethis has been in here in me all
along this whole time.
This voice, this person, thischaracter, Flamy, has been
trying to get out and speak andhave her moment.
(47:04):
And so that's one of this, it'sone of those songs for me, holy
Ground, and it's just.
It ended up being my favoritetrack on the record, I think,
and again, favorite being thetear of the year.
For so many reasons.
I just think the production onit is amazing.
The percussionist we had onthat song, Noah Heldman, just
like did this trance, like thingthat just puts me like, puts my
(47:29):
whole body into just like a Idon't know meditative, at ease
posture and almost immediately,and it's just about like nature
and like being connected to theearth and just my experience
with that.
But what it ended up feelinglike was just like the right
song for a psychedelic journey.
(47:51):
And you know so my producerwanted to end.
It just has all these ooze atthe end that go on and on
forever.
And my producer, like, wanted toend it way earlier than I did
and I was like, listen, I'mputting, I'm putting my stiletto
down.
We are dragging this outbecause I want people to have a
(48:12):
full opportunity to go onwhatever journey they need to go
on when they listen to thissong.
So it's like, put that one onyour psychedelic playlist.
I love it, but it's just, yeah,it's one of my favorites and
yeah, I hope it puts you at easeas much as it does me.
That's my hope for that song.
Coach Alex Ray (48:31):
What tell us a little bit about the creative
process, like what is, what isyour creative process?
Flamy Grant (48:43):
I wish I could say that like I wake up every
morning and I do my morningpages and then I invoke the muse
, and but it's not like thatgirl it is no.
It is whenever I can find thefucking time, like I, if I can
steal away for a little fewmoments to strum some chords and
jot down some lyrics orwhatever it's.
(49:06):
I mean it is being open, it'sjust, it is trying to be open to
inspiration whenever andwherever it may strike, because
it sometimes she comes in aninopportune moments and you just
got to be ready.
But it's also, I think, beinglike, like it's just important
(49:28):
to create the space as well,like I am Again, I'm not great
about getting up and journalingand all of this stuff you know,
regularly or consistently, but Ido know that if I don't carve
out time somewhere in myschedule, like I'm not giving an
(49:49):
opportunity to creativity toblossom, right, like she'll,
she'll choose the next person,like the muse will move on to
the next person if I, if I holdmy hand up to her long enough.
So it's it's a mix of beingresponsive to the moment and
then also creating the moment.
And I don't know, I've beenwriting songs since I was nine
(50:12):
and it's just now feels likeit's just as much a part of me
as anything, you know, brushingmy teeth, like it's just, it's
just a thing I have to do and,um, yeah, I, I love it.
I'm grateful for theopportunity to write songs that
people want to hear, so it's,it's great.
Coach Alex Ray (50:36):
And what made you decide to combine music and
drag, songwriting and drag?
Flamy Grant (50:44):
Yeah, um, honestly it was.
It never really dawned on me,even even at the beginning part
of pandemic.
When I was, I was living withtwo other musicians, we were
house sharing and so we wouldall live stream together and we
would do concerts and I wouldshow up to these concerts and
drag and I would they'd mostlybe covers Like we would just
(51:05):
cover songs and drink for twohours on a Thursday night with
anybody else who wanted to logon with us and even at that
point I was still like blithelyunaware of the potential or
possibility of like actuallydoing doing being a drag
musician, right, like that was.
I don't know if there was aspecific moment, but I do know
(51:27):
that I it was when I started tosee people's responses and
reactions to what I was doingonline and the comment that I
got over and over again was, Ifeel, seen and I feel safe.
When Flamy does what Flamy does,and I was like, oh well, that
is exactly if I have a missionor a ministry or a calling or
(51:48):
whatever you want to name itLike, that's it.
It's to make people feel seenand safe.
And so that was when I was likemaybe I should write a song as
Flamy and see what that feelslike.
And lo and behold, you know Igot a whole album out of it and
I'm still writing as Flamy andthere'll be another album next
year.
And yeah, it's, it's wild, butI am so grateful that the
(52:14):
universe showed me this path.
Coach Alex Ray (52:16):
I am so excited.
Another album next year, yes,oh my God.
Well, before we close now, Iwould love to hear what do you
want to share with everyone,what is coming up, what's
exciting in your world, andwhere can they find and follow
you?
Flamy Grant (52:35):
Well, I'm really easy to find.
I'm the only Flamy Grant outthere.
It's just like Amy Grant, butwith a little flame on the front
.
And yeah, my, my.
If you go to my website,flamygrant.
com, you'll see all of myupcoming shows.
I am touring a lot right nowbecause I'm just I'm basically
saying yes to everything andalso seeking out touring
opportunities, so this is myfull-time job.
(52:57):
I'm trying to make it work, soyou will find me very likely on
the road near you at some pointover the next few months.
So come see me.
And yeah, like I said, we'reI'm dropping a new single this
month, at the end of October,for spooky season.
Coach Alex Ray (53:15):
Yes.
Flamy Grant (53:16):
Yes, it's called fortune teller, so I'm not sure
when this will be out, but checkand see if fortune teller is
out.
And then after that, yeah,we've been working on a new
record with a team that I'mputting together and very
excited about, and it probablywon't be out until, I mean, a
year from now to be, to behonest, we'll be recording in
(53:39):
the spring, and then there'sjust a lot of work that goes in
after that.
But yeah, but it's yeah.
Other than that, catch me onthe road girl.
Coach Alex Ray (53:50):
Perfect, all right, and we'll have all of
that linked in the show notes.
They can find everything yourtour dates and everything on
your website, right?
Yes, absolutely Perfect, allright.
Any final closing thoughts thatyou'd like to share with anyone
?
Flamy Grant (54:05):
Hmm, maybe just be a be a Shane Slayer.
Look, I can't even say it, butit's the same slab baby.
We've got enough shame in theworld, we need you to slay it.
Yeah, that's all.
Coach Alex Ray (54:23):
I love it.
Flamy Grant everyone, thank youso much for being here with me
today.
Thanks for sharing your wisdomand your insights and your
vulnerability.
It's just been an absolutepleasure and delight getting to
know more of you today andlearning from your experiences.
Flamy Grant (54:43):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
This is absolutely delightful.
Coach Alex Ray (54:47):
You're so welcome.
All right, everyone.
I will see you on the nextepisode.
Bye.
Hello, my unicorns.
Welcome back to another specialguest episode.
Today I am so excited to havewith me Flamy Grant.
She's a shameslaying,hip-swaying, singing,
songwriting, drag queen makingChristian music.
That speaks directly to herexperience as a queer person and
(00:20):
you're going to just learn allthe most amazing tips from her
today.
So welcome, Flamy, to the QueerConfidence podcast.
Flamy Grant (00:29):
Thank you.
Tips on tips, I'm really happyto be here.
Coach Alex Ray (00:34):
I'm so happy to have you.
Also, I'm so proud of myselffor not totally fumbling your
tongue twister intro.
Flamy Grant (00:41):
I know.
I didn't make it easy, but younailed it.
You nailed it.
Coach Alex Ray (00:46):
Oh, my God.
Well, I think we got to startwith the.
We got to start with theobvious.
For anyone that knows you, theyknow you've topped the
Christians and by that we meanyou are the first drag queen to
ever top the iTunes singleChristian singles and iTunes
(01:08):
Christian albums, and your albumwas there for a while.
Flamy Grant (01:13):
It was there for nine days.
I topped for nine days.
You know how exhausting that is.
I can't even imagine Me neither.
This is the first time I'veever topped anything.
So there you go.
Coach Alex Ray (01:29):
Oh, my God.
Okay, well, tell us about, tellus a little bit about the
journey.
What was that like, being beingon top for so long?
Flamy Grant (01:38):
It was wild and very unexpected.
My hope, with this whole, allthe shenanigans that happened
around, this was just a chart atall on the Christian charts and
so I thought that would be awin.
Like, let's just have a dragqueen, like show up on the
Christian charts period anywherein the top top 100, top 200.
(01:59):
I don't care.
Just to be able to say thatthere was a drag queen on the
Christian charts would be huge.
But I, the sales caught windgirl, I don't know Like people
lashed on to the story andTikTok was very good to me and
folks went out and downloadedthe record, they downloaded the
(02:19):
single and I mean within 24hours both had hit number one
and then, yeah, like we said,the album stayed there for quite
a while.
I was the literal face ofChristian music on iTunes for
over a week, which is crazy,crazy.
Coach Alex Ray (02:36):
I kept going on to check and I just every time I
was like please be there,please be there please be there,
yes.
So crazy, oh my gosh.
It was so fun to see you thereand it was also really funny
when the I found out about itthrough Instagram, I think, like
(02:56):
the Hillcrest account posted ohyeah, yeah.
And I was like, oh my God.
And then I started looking intoyou and I was like, oh my God,
I met her.
Flamy Grant (03:07):
Hold on, we did a whole gig together.
Coach Alex Ray (03:10):
We had a conversation, we hung out
backstage.
Yeah, me and my underwear, youand your like in your full In my
leotard.
Yes, you were in your leotard.
You were in your leopard printrainbow leotard, my Lisa Frank
fantasy.
Flamy Grant (03:28):
Yes, and Bervain made that for me in the Palm
Springs and I wear that anychance I get.
Coach Alex Ray (03:34):
It's so gorgeous .
Well, for those that don'treally know the drama that led
to you topping the charts,because I really think that that
was also like a big reason whyI wanted to have you on the
podcast, because the way thatyou showed up, I think, is a way
that all of our unicorns herecan live, all of our unicorns
(03:57):
here can learn from and reallyimprove their confidence in how
they might address thingsthemselves.
So let's talk about Sean.
Flamy Grant (04:10):
It sounds like a terrible, like HBO miniseries
title.
It really does Well.
So yeah, Sean Foyt is theperson of interest at the moment
and if you don't know who, thisis good for you.
Coach Alex Ray (04:25):
If you do.
Flamy Grant (04:27):
If you do, it means you probably caught wind of his
name, either either throughthis story, which made national
headlines, or, more likely, acouple of years prior in the
middle of pandemic Sean Foyt,who is a self-described Mago
worship leader.
Whatever that means, it soundsculty and horrifying.
(04:50):
He was the one going aroundduring pandemic and holding
these big worship services outin public with just hordes of
people unmasked, while the restof us were like kind of watching
on in horror and saying, ok,cool, so like what percentage of
that crowd is going to be deadin a month, like that's, that's
(05:10):
that's how this disease isworking right now.
So anyway, sean, you know just,he just came for me on Twitter,
as all as people do, but it wasin a in response to some work I
had done.
I had collaborated with anothermusician, derek Webb, who back
in the day was in a bigChristian band that was called
(05:34):
Caidman's Call, and by back inthe day I mean when I was coming
up in youth group in churchyouth group.
So the 90s and early 2000s andDerek has, you know, since had a
solo career and is a reallygreat guy, good ally and a good
friend to me, and so we hadcollaborated on some music.
And Sean Foyt saw thatcollaboration and said, well,
(05:57):
this, this is the I think hesays, the end game and goal of
deconstruction, which, if youdon't know what that word is,
it's just kind of the buzzwordright now for, like, looking at
your inherited belief systems,ie religion, like, like looking
at your religion being like,okay, this is what was handed to
me and do I actually believe itand is it valuable and is it
(06:19):
good or is it doing more harm,those kinds of questions.
And so Sean was like, well,this is the end goal of
deconstruction.
A drag queen collaborating witha Christian musician, blah blah
, blah, blah, and which I knowright.
Coach Alex Ray (06:33):
Pausing on that for a moment is hilarious.
That that's like.
Flamy Grant (06:38):
That was that was what we were working towards
that we have made it.
Coach Alex Ray (06:42):
Y'all done, done , deconstruction over everyone.
Go back to what you were doing.
Flamy Grant (06:50):
This was the end goal and now we can chill.
I know, just like crazy, somuch crazy in the world.
But anyway, you know I am adrag queen and I do deal with
online trolls on the reg.
So I just responded cutely ohbaby, no, and cool, we're just
(07:11):
getting started.
And Sean came back and saidwell, good for us, nobody
listens to you or cares what youdo, which is like the cat-iest
thing.
Right, like that is such a likethat's mean, that is Rachel
McAdams and mean girls.
Coach Alex Ray (07:28):
Like like okay, honestly, if you're going to
come for a drag queen, you'vegot to have some creative
clackbacks.
Flamy Grant (07:35):
You do.
Coach Alex Ray (07:36):
Like.
No one likes you.
Flamy Grant (07:38):
Anyway is just just get ready and I would like to
think that maybe Sean will havelearned his lesson by now,
because I said, oh really, noone cares.
No one, sean, and you know, tobe fair, I did not have a big
(07:58):
Twitter following at the time.
So he probably like becausethis is where this exchange
happened was on Twitter or,excuse me, x, whatever, elon.
So he probably looked at myTwitter following and was like,
oh well, this person'sinconsequential, but that's
because I hate Twitter and neverinvested any time in it.
But I did have quite a decentfollowing on TikTok.
(08:21):
So that's where I went and Isaid, hey pals, guess what?
This thing just happened.
And here's what else is in play.
I have a record that I releasedlast year.
It is already sitting there inthe Christian genre, because
that's the genre I put it inwhen I chose to release my
independent album and it haddone fine.
I was really pleased with theperformance of my record as an
(08:44):
independent first time artist.
I've released music in the pastunder other names, but this was
Flamy Grant's first record andyou know it had done respectably
, and so I was like I would loveto see if there is a chance
that I just put out the play onTikTok, if there's a chance we
(09:05):
could get this record to charton the Christian charts.
And because it's there, I have asong that is quote unquote a
worship song.
Like there's a lot to talkabout in terms of what that
means for me and the song inparticular, but like it is, it's
a worship song.
I wrote it for the church Iused to be a part of.
And what if we got that song?
(09:25):
What if we got a worship songby a drag queen to chart after a
worship leader a Maga worshipleader like came for me online
and people really liked thatnarrative and I kind of
suspected they would, which iswhy I rolled the dice.
But wow, I never expected thatit would.
Yeah, just do what it did.
It was crazy.
Coach Alex Ray (09:44):
Yeah, you kind of like exploded there over the.
It was like a how many days wasit between Twitter and the
Twitter exchange and blowing upon iTunes.
Flamy Grant (09:56):
Literally the next day.
Coach Alex Ray (09:57):
Like it wasn't even.
Flamy Grant (09:59):
Yeah, it wasn't even a full 24 hours, oh my God.
Coach Alex Ray (10:02):
Yeah, so what an emotional rollercoaster, I
imagine.
Flamy Grant (10:08):
It was wild, it was so I was like I don't know what
to do.
I was like calling up friends.
I was like this feels like amoment, this feels like
something's happening.
Should I?
What do I do?
And they were like girl, get apublicist, do it, just do it.
And I was like, okay, I don'teven know how to do that, but
somebody knew somebody, thatkind of thing.
And so, yeah, I hired someoneto help and the story got out to
(10:33):
more outlets, media outletspicked it up.
I think I think PACE Magazinewas like one of the first.
Like I was so excited aboutPACE Magazine because it's like
the music nerd magazine, youknow, and I'm like, yes, like
that's the one I want to be in.
And then, like the next daywe're like Stone Cold and I was
like, oh, like shit myself Likeyeah.
(10:54):
So you know, and from there itwas like Newsweek and
Entertainment Weekly and NPR,like all these outlets, picked
up the story.
So it was a whirlwind.
I had to quit my job.
Two weeks early I was alreadyplanning to quit.
I had already put in my noticeI was quitting the job and
moving across the country and Iwas gonna start doing drag
(11:18):
full-time regardless.
That was already in the worksand then this happened and I'm
very glad it did, because it'smade it a lot easier to go into
full-time drag work after havinga little bit of a moment in
national press.
So it's been very helpful.
Thank you, Sean Foyt.
Coach Alex Ray (11:38):
Indeed Like what perfect timing for everything
too.
Yeah, crazy so.
Flamy Grant (11:45):
I mean, back in the day we would have said, oh,
it's just such a god thing.
Coach Alex Ray (11:48):
It's such a god thing.
Flamy Grant (11:50):
Yes, all in his timing, absolutely Time and a
place for everything, such atime as this.
Coach Alex Ray (12:03):
Well, I'm just I'm so happy for you and I'm so
glad that you were able to, thatall of these things lined up so
perfectly for you to reallyhelp launch your career into
full-time drag.
It's just incredible and I'm soproud of you and so happy for
you.
Flamy Grant (12:21):
Yeah, thanks so much.
Coach Alex Ray (12:23):
I'm curious, you know, for anyone listening,
what lessons have you learnedthat you could share with them?
Anyone that's listening, whomay have or may have been, is or
will be facing online bullyingor harassment yeah, and
basically, if you have asmartphone, you will probably
face online harassment at somepoint right in some.
Flamy Grant (12:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, you know I've beendealing with it for a while and
but like even before this wholething was Sean Foyte I had some
like success on TikTok and withthings going viral, on TikTok
also come trolls.
So I had been dealing with itfor a while and I really had
(13:08):
kind of worked through it to apoint where I know when it's
okay for me to respond and thatfor me, like that feels like I'm
responding purely for the joyof it, like because I know it's
gonna be a fun thing for me,right.
(13:30):
So I don't respond.
If I'm mad, like if it actuallygets under my skin.
If somebody, if a troll, comeson and says something and it
actually hurts or makes me angryor creates any kind of negative
reaction whatsoever, I don'trespond.
And I didn't always, like Iused to go in like right away
with my you know knee jerkreaction and that, and I learned
(13:50):
pretty quickly that thoseusually don't go very well
because I actually do.
I am invested in the outcome ofit, right, I wanna win like, I
wanna be right, I wanna shamethem or put them in their place
or whatever, and those are nevergreat reasons, I don't think,
to engage with another humanbeing.
I think it has to be a biggerlike you have to have.
(14:14):
I think one of two things haveto happen.
It has to be either be like onbehalf of a cause, or like a
group of people or someone else,someone like not just yourself
kind of thing, so that there'skind of that righteous anger
response.
I think that that's somethingthat can motivate us to do
really good things in the world.
Or for me, I, you know, I justI think I did a lot of internal
(14:40):
work to just like realize andremind myself daily that these
are very inconsequential thingsthat like these comments, like
they're not, they're notreflective of anything true
about me, because these peopledon't know me, they're only
speaking, it can only be aprojection, right, because
(15:00):
they've seen you know twoseconds of a video of me and
they've created this wholenarrative around who I am or
what they believe about me, andI'm like that can only be a
projection.
They know nothing about me, sothey're speaking from whatever
their own place of shame is ortheir own place of pain, and
it's not about me.
So, but when it is for me, likethe times I've, the times I
(15:24):
choose to respond now, areusually One of those two things
and, honestly, it's usually whenI'm just there to have a little
fun with it and I'm justcompletely detached from the
outcome, like I don't care aboutwinning with the person, so I
can just be like Silly orsubversive or whatever with it.
Yeah, which is kind of how Ifelt about the Sean thing
because, honestly, like myfriends were all Told me they're
(15:46):
like, oh my gosh, like Seanfoits coming for you, like, and
I was like who?
Like I genuinely did not.
And I remembered hearing aboutthis pastor in pandemic who is
holding these worship servicesand when I realized that's what
it was, I was like, oh okay,cool, but I didn't even realize
at the time, I think, that hehad like I think it's like a
hundred million followers orsomething like that, something
crazy, I know like how.
(16:08):
But so I just was.
I truly was detached from theoutcome of that.
I wasn't trying to, I Wasn'tlooking at it as an opportunity,
I wasn't looking at it asanything other than like how
silly that you like Think thiswas the, this is what we're
trying to do all along like no,no, no, we're just getting
(16:28):
started like we're.
This is.
Yeah, it was just a, it was aflip little response that I was
detached from.
So, yeah, that for me, I think,is a Just a good litmus test or
barometer of like, like, how,how invested am I right now and
am I?
Am I actually activated rightnow or my feelings?
Am I having negative responsesand reactions to what's going on
(16:49):
?
Or is this just something I canturn into an opportunity or
turn into a teachable moment orhonestly just have some fun with
?
Like that's fine too, but yeah,I think, at the end of the day,
just remember that most onlinebullying, especially coming from
people that you don't know it,can't be anything other than a
(17:10):
projection.
It can't actually be about youbecause they don't know you.
It's my one of my favoriteQuotes.
I think it's from her bookbossy pants, but Tina Fey was
talking about the internet andyou know the the flax she's
taken on the internet fordifferent things in her career
(17:31):
and I can't I can't quote itexactly.
I should probably have it on asticky note somewhere.
But she basically says in hervery Tina Fey way like the
internet is not a real thingthat you have to obey, like,
just like, let it go.
It's not real.
And I was like you're right,you don't have to obey strangers
on the internet, you can justlet them go.
Coach Alex Ray (17:54):
Yeah, and my god , you know, all of that is just
such a beautiful framework to.
I really like what you saidabout Projections and realizing
that that it cannot be anythingmore than that.
Flamy Grant (18:11):
Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (18:11):
I always talk about what I do In in my career
and online, or really my life,as it's art and so no matter
what people are going to haveopinions about it, but what
they're doing is they're justobserving art and it's
Triggering thoughts and feelingsin them and then they're
expressing that.
So I really never have anyControl over that, because we
(18:35):
don't have.
That's the point of art.
Flamy Grant (18:37):
Yes, it just sparks thoughts and feelings, and it
is, and it's going to be, anindividual response for every
single person.
Coach Alex Ray (18:44):
So and I really there's so much wisdom in what
you said about not responding inanger, because anger really
does just blind us.
To.
You can't respond in a In athoughtful way.
You're going you, even if youthink, oh great, I can go after
this person, like, if you areblindly angry, you are going to
(19:08):
fuck up, you're gonna trip up,and then you're the one that
looks like the idiot instead ofWaiting until you got to a place
where it's no longer sotriggering for you.
Flamy Grant (19:19):
So I just so.
I this morning I just rewatchedto the video.
Have you seen that?
But the woman who like here inherself, like she makes a video
about her trip to Beth and bedWas it Beth and body works or
bed, bath and beyond one of themOkay, she's trying to get
candles.
You haven't seen this one?
I don't think.
So tell me, gosh, it's like fourminutes long and it's just like
(19:42):
she went home and she set upher camera and like her good
lighting and she's like I have astory to tell you and she just
goes into this long saga abouthow mad she was that she called
Bed, bath and Beyond to makesure they had this candle and
she drove a really long way andshe's somewhere up north, so
it's like all the city names arefunny I can't remember.
(20:03):
Okay, it's like I can't remember, but it's just like, like her
tone and everything.
It's just, it's it's a perfecttheatrical experience and she
like the whole thing is justthat she got there and they made
a mistake, they didn't have thecandles and she was mad that
she drove all the way and shewas like I deserve to be
compensated for this and shejust goes off the rails and
she's, and the thing is she'slike clearly thought this
(20:25):
through and she's prettymeasured and pretty like she
doesn't lose control Really atany point.
A couple times she gets alittle into it and starts, you
know, yelling at the camera, butfor the most part so she thinks
that she has just likedelivered this like scathing
indictment of bed, bath andbeyond.
And she, and in particular oneCashier that she talked to,
(20:48):
called Jen, and every time shesays Jen's name she does air
quotes with her fingers, thoughJen's like not her real name or
something like it's.
So it's just like it.
You're watching this womandescend into absolute insanity
over these candles that Someonejust made an honest mistake over
right and it's just the mostdelightful.
(21:10):
Like Shodden Freudic experience,but anyway.
But all that to say?
Like that is exactly that, likeshe thought she was like doing
something and she's now thelaughing stock, you know.
Like everybody watches thatvideo and is like, oh my gosh,
you're like a nightmare humanand poor Jen at bed bath, and
(21:31):
like we all feel bad for Jen.
Like you're trying to get herfired and we feel bad for her.
So, yeah, yeah, you can't, youcannot have a you can't.
Responding out of your yourfeels is just not a great move.
Like take the beats, take theday, whatever you need to like
and come back to it.
(21:51):
And most likely, you'll comeback to it and remember that the
block button is your friend andyou'll just block the person.
And that's what I end up doingmost of the time with people who
genuinely get to me like I justdon't need that, I don't need
your energy, I don't need you onmy page.
Get out of here.
Coach Alex Ray (22:06):
Yeah, yeah, love that.
Okay, I want to transition herea little bit into talking about
your personal life outside ofdrag.
You are non-binary, I am.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your journey?
What's it been like tounderstanding your queer
identities?
Flamy Grant (22:27):
Hmm, yeah, so my like, um, I don't even know.
I feel like we don't even talkabout it in terms of sexual
orientation or preferencesanymore.
I feel like that's not what wesay.
But I'm old, I'm sorry, I'm anold gay.
So, like my, my sexual, mysexual orientation, like you are
not an old.
I mean when you have to likeGoogle what the kids are saying,
(22:52):
like when you have to get onurban dictionary.
I think you've crossed.
You've crossed a bridge, ohshit then I'm all too.
But that's the thing it like.
The world moves so fast and wegrew up so fast now because
we're also connected on socialmedia, so whatever, it's great,
I love learning from the kids,like I love it.
But for me, like my coming toterms with my Like sexual
(23:16):
orientation, like identifying asgay, was like a decade long
process.
In my 20s I like had to had tocome to terms with just even
being comfortable saying thatabout myself.
And then and I didn't startdating until I was 28.
I didn't, I didn't have sexuntil I was like 31, like I was
a late bloomer and and allthanks to religious trauma and
(23:37):
you know, indoctrinated shamefrom evangelicalism and all
these things, unfortunately fartoo well.
But yeah, so I really hadn'texplored gender identity or
expression Until I started tothink about drag more more
(24:00):
seriously.
And so it was.
It was a couple years beforepandemic that I really started
to get interested in drag and Ihad been Like a casual observer
for a while.
But you know, really like didthe deep dive of binging every
season of drag race and thatkind of stuff and like 20
probably like 2018 and 2019, andand then Pandemic came around
(24:21):
and I had I had gone out.
I think my first time in dragwas Halloween of 2019.
I did a fun little witch momentbecause it's very easy to do
drag on Halloween and it's safeand no one's gonna judge you
Exactly, yeah, but it's also thegateway, as we know.
So I was one of the.
I was I'm a combinationHalloween and quarantine Queen
(24:41):
because, like I knew I liked iton at Halloween.
But it's not like I had thetime.
I had a full-time job, I was inanother band.
Like I wasn't gonna I was nevergoing to like change my career
and become a drag queen.
That was not in the cards for mebut then you know, miss, miss
Rona Locked us all at home and Ihad hours and hours of free
(25:03):
time and I spent mine, you know,watching makeup tutorials and
learning to do drag, and so itwas that process for me that
really opened my mind to oh,like, am I, am I gender diverse?
Like, do I have some fluiditygoing on in me?
(25:25):
I think maybe I do, and it was.
It was a wild thing to kind ofdiscover Through like, through
drag because, you know you're, Iliterally was doing it just in
my bedroom by myself duringpandemic like, like for fun and
and and, honestly, for innerchild work is what it ended up
(25:45):
being for me, it was like welove your child work here.
Yes, mmm, mama, that that littlekid, you know Just being able
to hold the kid version ofmyself and say, hey, like all
those times you got in troubleor you got shoot out for
behaving in a certain way thatwas not befitting of a boy, or
you know, messing in your mom'smakeup or her closet, like,
(26:08):
you're okay, that stuff wasactually good.
Those impulses and instinctsare you and they're not like
your sin nature or your fallenstate or any of that bullshit.
Yes, it's just you and you'recoming back to yourself by doing
these things.
So it was like that first yearof drag was really just that for
me and we were.
I was live streaming and as aswe did during pandemic, so
(26:29):
that's where I mean my firstdrag performances quote, unquote
were we're on the internet?
I?
Coach Alex Ray (26:36):
Love that.
How fun to have that forjourney, because most drag
queens were like fumblingthrough.
How do I do Something on theinternet?
Yeah, and it wasn't workingwell for most of You've got the
opposite experience.
Flamy Grant (26:53):
You went from the figuring out the online first to
yeah, yeah, coming in personand that was a fumble for me,
like figuring out in person waslike this is a whole different
game, but yeah, it did.
It did just kind of give meinsight into myself and how I
Think I think so much of myanger actually came from having
(27:16):
feeling compelled to conform toTraditionally masculine
identities right, traditionallymasculine stereotypes in the
world, because that that wasn'tme, it's not, it's not how, it's
not my natural state, and so Iwas living in a very unnatural
way, even, excuse me, even aftercoming out and being, you know,
fully embracing my sexualityand, you know, getting married.
(27:39):
I got married in 2019.
So, like it's, you know, I'vebeen out and proud for a while,
but I had not identified that.
You know, there was this likeUntended part of my soul that I
had just been neglecting mywhole entire life out of shame
and out of, you know, beingindoctrinated to neglect it,
basically, and so it was reallybeautiful to Start writing songs
(28:03):
as flamey and use, use thatvoice and just see myself.
You know, all art is just takingwhat's Inside us and
manifesting it in some externalform right, whether that sound
or sculpture or paint orwhatever and drag is no
different.
It is an external manifestationof something that you're
experiencing internally, and ILove that.
(28:26):
You know drag was.
It was such a gift for me to beable to learn more about who I
am through that art form andStill you know every day getting
to do that.
Coach Alex Ray (28:37):
It's so beautiful.
Truly, thank you for sharingthat with us.
Playing with things that aretraditionally Assigned to the
opposite gender, I think, is sohelpful for anyone to just start
understanding yourself more,because until you start breaking
down those barriers especiallyif you're afraid of it, like I
(29:00):
was, like you're not going to IDon't know really understand why
you're afraid of it.
And then, if you're not afraidof it, great, play around with
it, have fun, and if it's notfor you, it's not for you, yeah.
Flamy Grant (29:14):
But more likely than not, it's going to.
It's going to reveal to you theways in which you are
performing your gender right,even like you, as us, like
speaking to you, it's a straightwhite man out there.
Like you're performing apercentage of the time right
Like almost almost nobody is100% John Wayne, right, like,
(29:36):
right like you.
There are other things that youfeel um, um, compelled to do or
say or behave or speak like, orwhatever, because it, it's an
expectation that's been put onyou because of, frankly, your
genitalia and and I Think thatthat is a huge gift of exploring
(29:58):
, just playing with you know,like put on nail polish, like
just once in your life, and walkaround for a day like as and
I'm obviously speaking to a Cis,straight white- male dude, dude
, right now, like put on nailpolish and walk around and see,
see how you feel, like, see whatinteractions it opens up for
you and you know just littlethings that can help you then
(30:21):
understand it's not going toturn everybody into a drag queen
and frankly we don't want thatbecause there's already enough
competition out here among theQueens, but, um, but what it
will do is it'll, it'll revealto you that, oh, like I Could
relax a little bit, like I don'thave to work so hard to hustle
for my acceptance in in mysocial circle and actually
(30:46):
actually maybe like leaning intomore authentic parts of myself
that I tend to suppress BecauseI think other people are gonna
judge me as being less masculineor less feminine, feminine or
whatever.
Leaning into those things canlike Make me a freer, happier,
more whole person, which thenjust it.
That that's magic that we don'thave words for, like we don't
(31:09):
have Barometers for, but it doessomething in your relationships
.
It opens up, it makes peopletrust you more deeply, it it
lets other people then respondin kind and it frees them.
Like you become an agent offreedom for other folks.
Like it's a, it's nudge, it'salchemy and, yeah, I think
(31:32):
everybody should deconstructyour gender, if not your faith,
at least your gender.
Coach Alex Ray (31:40):
I was literally going to loop it back to that.
I was like here we go, moredeconstruction.
See, music wasn't the end goal.
We have many things todeconstruct, yeah.
Get enriched on Literally justgetting started, baby.
Yes, oh my God.
I think another thing that itreally can do is give you a lot
(32:05):
of compassion for other peoplethat are also putting on a
performance, like when I go outfor networking events or anytime
that I'm leading a workshop,anytime that I am like on stage
in air quotes, literally orfiguratively, I dress all up.
I don't do a full face ofmakeup, I always do my eyes,
(32:30):
because that's my favorite partof makeup.
I do like the eyes of thenipples of the face.
Flamy Grant (32:37):
Sorry, I had to.
Coach Alex Ray (32:41):
So I got to show off my face, nipples.
Yes, you did, because I love itand it's like a piece of art.
I love that.
It's art that also is onlygoing to last for not even a
whole day, like it's there andit's gone.
Like what truer expression ofart?
It's like a sunset.
It's Every moment that goes byit's changing and then it's gone
(33:04):
forever.
It's only in our memory.
So, anyway, I love art.
So then I'll dress up and heels.
And when I got into wearingheels through, drag was the
gateway.
I did it for charity, you know,for the first time, and I had
been dying to be able to likeown heels, put on makeup and all
(33:27):
this stuff, and that was theexcuse.
But heels, the whole point ofthis fucking tangent I went on
was heels and drag.
I was like, oh my God, I have anew, extremely heightened
appreciation for drag queensafter having to have my junk
tucked up, my ass crack forseveral hours and then the Like
(33:56):
wearing heels.
I was like my feet are on fire.
So to everyone that wears heelson the rag, like how and like I
bow down right.
Flamy Grant (34:10):
Absolutely, it's wild.
I've devised a way around it inwhich I, you know, I'm a
singer-songwriter, so I'm alwaysbehind a guitar and a
microphone, usually when I'm indrag, and I now have
incorporated a stompbox into myset, so it's a pedal that you
(34:31):
stomp on that mimics a bass drum, so I get a little percussion
with my set button.
Now that it gives me the excuseto like wear flats on stage or
like boots you know, short heelboots or whatever because you
can't Like, you can't stomp onit in a stiletto.
It doesn't work.
Coach Alex Ray (34:47):
So I figured out my loophole.
Flamy Grant (34:52):
I love it.
Yes heels respect, much respect.
I still wear them but only forshort periods of time.
Coach Alex Ray (35:00):
And also like especially straight men.
You got to try some of thisstuff just so you can have
appreciation for the women whoyou're chasing and then
potentially making them feeluncomfortable, like they already
are physically so goddamnuncomfortable, and now you're
making them emotionallyuncomfortable, like just
(35:21):
compassion.
There's so much room forcompassion.
Flamy Grant (35:24):
Absolutely.
Coach Alex Ray (35:26):
I want to also ask you another question here.
Around your personal journey,how have you reconciled your
faith and your queer identities?
Why not just give it all up?
Flamy Grant (35:40):
That is a very good question and I think you might
get a different answer for medepending on the day right.
There are days when I definitelywant to give it all up and I
may one day still, you know,like that, who knows what the
future holds.
But why I met where I ammeaning, the reason I released
(36:08):
the record in the Christiangenre, the reason I've kind of
leaned into allowing myself tobe called a Christian drag queen
, even though it's complicatedfor me, you know.
But there's a handful ofreasons.
I would say the biggest one isjust purely representation
(36:30):
matters.
You know the power of presenceand I'm sure you can relate Like
there were very few instancesfor me growing up of seeing
anything positive associatedwith queerness, absolutely Even
beyond that.
Just like I just didn't evenknow what queerness is growing
up, you know, like I was sosheltered and so kept within our
(36:52):
little evangelical subculturethat it took a long time for
even knew what, like the wordsgay and lesbian were.
So for me it's knowing thatthere are still families out
there who are raising kids theway mine did, which for me was
really difficult and hard, toxic, created mountains of shame
(37:16):
that I had to work through laterin life.
You know all of these things,everything we've been talking
about so far, like stems from afear and shame based religion.
That was high demand.
So knowing that there that'sstill the case for many kids who
are coming up and knowing whatit is to be queer, and knowing
that there will always be queerkids coming up in the spaces, it
(37:41):
feels important, it feelsvaluable to me, it feels like a
thing I can offer the world.
To be someone who just, is loudand open and doesn't stays in
the space for now rather thanrather than desert it.
(38:04):
And to be clear, to be 100%clear.
I need people to know I saythis all the time like I fully
champion leaving.
I think that for a lot of people, leaving is the best option and
it's so hard to heal in theplace where you were harmed, yes
(38:24):
, and so getting out is a reallygood thing for a lot of people.
And so, whatever you want tocall it deconstruction, apostasy
I called it apostasy when I didit because we didn't have the
deconstruction term but like,follow your healing, follow
whatever is going to heal you.
So that's the one side of it,right.
(38:46):
And then the other is thatsometimes, for certain people
with certain dispositions and Icount myself among them I think
that we can stay, like if wehave the capacity to stay and
the desire to stay and theknowledge that our staying is
(39:06):
potentially going to save lives,like actually save lives, which
that's a message I've gottenmore than once now since all of
this stuff blew up.
People who've slid into my DMsconfessing suicidal thoughts or
previous suicidal thoughts untilliterally hearing my music,
which that's a humbling moment,like I never set out to write a
(39:31):
song to save a life, a lifeother than my own.
But that's the beauty of artand telling our stories and
being vulnerable and all of itis.
We can save more than our livessometimes.
So, for some of us, I thinkstaying can be a good path.
Coach Alex Ray (39:55):
Congratulations.
You're the only one that's evermade me cry on my own podcast.
Flamy Grant (39:59):
Oh no, and I hope they're starting to use.
So worth it.
Coach Alex Ray (40:06):
Well, you know, a large my upbringing was the
number one factor to me.
Attempting suicide, and I thinkthat's really what you know.
I told you even before westarted recording that like, for
some reason, this question waslike really like hitting an
(40:27):
emotional spot for me.
It was like I'll probably getemotional for it.
Here we go, but you know, Ithere is something so beautiful
to me about the art that you'recreating and the way that you
are being a queer voice in thespace that I did not have a
(40:52):
queer like superhero, you know,and I have worked through so
much in therapy around myattempt, and for me then, you
(41:13):
know, leaving the church wasreally the right decision.
It's still.
There's still positive memories.
Even though I have so much painaround my experiences in the
church, I still have happymemories of a sense of community
(41:33):
there.
Yeah, and what I, what I thinkis pulling so much emotion out
of me here, is that what I seefrom you is this, this or what.
What you're activating in me isthis feeling of like.
Okay, here's, like, all thegood parts about the community
that I experienced and that I'vemissed.
Flamy Grant (41:54):
Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (41:55):
With the acceptance that I longed for my
entire life.
I never felt like it and youdeserved yeah.
Flamy Grant (42:04):
Yeah, and it was stolen.
It was stolen from you, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (42:08):
I never felt like it was possible or
acceptable or like anythingwould happen other than me being
burned in hell and likeostracized so thank you, and
that's what.
Flamy Grant (42:23):
well, dear Rockham, thank you for making the space
available to have thisconversation.
I that's the thing that I thinkcan be really hard for people
who didn't maybe grow up insomething similar to understand
because, I get that a lot.
I get that question a lot likemy God, why are you catering to
(42:43):
this community that would, thatdoesn't give a shit about you,
that wants you dead, or that youknow is vilifying you in public
or like casting uh, passinglegislation against you?
Like why do you care what theythink?
And I'm like it's not that youknow it's, I'm not like, I'm not
out here chasing an approval.
I'll never get it's.
(43:05):
There's so many layers and youtouched on 18 of them just now
in what you said.
But you know, like it's, it's,it's a real like we, it's a real
part of our lives, like welived good periods, good chunks
of our lives and that wascommunity for us and that was
home and that was everythingthat.
(43:26):
The power of nostalgia.
Nowadays, you know, like, likeI think we're more aware than
ever of the power of nostalgiaand that's why shows get
rebooted and all this like yeah,it's, it's like it does
something to you, likephysiologically in your body, to
(43:46):
have those connections back toyour childhood and your
upbringing.
And the other part of it isthat we were raised being we
were raised with that fear ofwhat's going to happen to us if
we ever leave.
What's gonna?
You know we're gonna.
I genuinely believed I wouldwind up unconscious in a gutter
(44:06):
with a needle in my arm, likethat was.
That was the only futureavailable to me if I didn't
follow the letter of the lawthat was prescribed.
Yeah, and so it's.
There's so much you have to workthrough to, to, and that is
such an individual personaljourney and why.
I would never, ever tellsomeone that they're, you know,
(44:31):
not making the right choice byleaving or being selfish by
leaving.
No, leave, like, be selfish, go, go, take care of yourself and
put yourself first for the firsttime in your life, because I
guarantee you, if you're broughtup in evangelicalism, you
didn't, you did not.
You never knew what it was liketo care for yourself in any way
.
And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's.
(44:53):
I wish we could have more, evenjust within our own community,
more compassion for each other,for the ones who choose to stay,
whatever that reason may be, orfor the ones who choose to go.
Like, just like.
Let us all have our journeysand go where we need to go.
Coach Alex Ray (45:09):
Yeah, so beautifully said.
All right, I want to switchgears here and talk about a much
lighter note as we start towrap things up here.
Tell us about like what?
What is your favorite songyou've ever written or maybe
(45:31):
that's also hard to choose Like?
Is there a song or a few songsthat like really just like hit
deep?
Flamy Grant (45:40):
Yeah, it's very hard to choose because it is I'm
.
I like I think it was MindyKaling who said like best friend
is not a person, it's a tier,and I just like use that for
everything.
Like I don't have a favoriteone of anything, like I just
have like a whole tier offavorites.
Like I have 18 favorite movies,you know, and they're, and
(46:03):
they're all my number onefavorite.
So it's kind of that way for mymusic to.
But I guess I'll just talkabout there's a song on the
record called Holy Ground.
That's kind of a what is theword I'm looking for?
It's not a B side, but it'sjust more of a.
It's a low expectations kind ofsong.
Right, like you're notexpecting I don't know, like I
(46:24):
didn't, I didn't even didn'teven expect much from it.
When I recorded it I was likelike maybe kind of filler, like
is this a filler song?
Because because I, when I firstwrote it, I didn't know what it
was, I didn't know what it wasabout and I wrote it.
I actually think I wrote thiswhole thing before Flamy ever
existed.
So it's one of the ones andthere are a few songs on the
(46:44):
record that I had started towrite or had written prior to
Flamy existing, and thenrevisited them with Flamy's
voice, and I was like, oh, likethis has been in here in me all
along this whole time.
This voice, this person, thischaracter, Flamy, has been
trying to get out and speak andhave her moment.
(47:04):
And so that's one of this, it'sone of those songs for me, holy
Ground, and it's just.
It ended up being my favoritetrack on the record, I think,
and again, favorite being thetear of the year.
For so many reasons.
I just think the production onit is amazing.
The percussionist we had onthat song, Noah Heldman, just
like did this trance, like thingthat just puts me like, puts my
(47:29):
whole body into just like a Idon't know meditative, at ease
posture and almost immediately,and it's just about like nature
and like being connected to theearth and just my experience
with that.
But what it ended up feelinglike was just like the right
song for a psychedelic journey.
(47:51):
And you know so my producerwanted to end.
It just has all these ooze atthe end that go on and on
forever.
And my producer, like, wanted toend it way earlier than I did
and I was like, listen, I'mputting, I'm putting my stiletto
down.
We are dragging this outbecause I want people to have a
(48:12):
full opportunity to go onwhatever journey they need to go
on when they listen to thissong.
So it's like, put that one onyour psychedelic playlist.
I love it, but it's just, yeah,it's one of my favorites and
yeah, I hope it puts you at easeas much as it does me.
That's my hope for that song.
Coach Alex Ray (48:31):
What tell us a little bit about the creative
process, like what is, what isyour creative process?
Flamy Grant (48:43):
I wish I could say that like I wake up every
morning and I do my morningpages and then I invoke the muse
, and but it's not like thatgirl it is no.
It is whenever I can find thefucking time, like I, if I can
steal away for a little fewmoments to strum some chords and
jot down some lyrics orwhatever it's.
(49:06):
I mean it is being open, it'sjust, it is trying to be open to
inspiration whenever andwherever it may strike, because
it sometimes she comes in aninopportune moments and you just
got to be ready.
But it's also, I think, beinglike, like it's just important
(49:28):
to create the space as well,like I am Again, I'm not great
about getting up and journalingand all of this stuff you know,
regularly or consistently, but Ido know that if I don't carve
out time somewhere in myschedule, like I'm not giving an
(49:49):
opportunity to creativity toblossom, right, like she'll,
she'll choose the next person,like the muse will move on to
the next person if I, if I holdmy hand up to her long enough.
So it's it's a mix of beingresponsive to the moment and
then also creating the moment.
And I don't know, I've beenwriting songs since I was nine
(50:12):
and it's just now feels likeit's just as much a part of me
as anything, you know, brushingmy teeth, like it's just, it's
just a thing I have to do and,um, yeah, I, I love it.
I'm grateful for theopportunity to write songs that
people want to hear, so it's,it's great.
Coach Alex Ray (50:36):
And what made you decide to combine music and
drag, songwriting and drag?
Flamy Grant (50:44):
Yeah, um, honestly it was.
It never really dawned on me,even even at the beginning part
of pandemic.
When I was, I was living withtwo other musicians, we were
house sharing and so we wouldall live stream together and we
would do concerts and I wouldshow up to these concerts and
drag and I would they'd mostlybe covers Like we would just
(51:05):
cover songs and drink for twohours on a Thursday night with
anybody else who wanted to logon with us and even at that
point I was still like blithelyunaware of the potential or
possibility of like actuallydoing doing being a drag
musician, right, like that was.
I don't know if there was aspecific moment, but I do know
(51:27):
that I it was when I started tosee people's responses and
reactions to what I was doingonline and the comment that I
got over and over again was, Ifeel, seen and I feel safe.
When Flamy does what Flamy does,and I was like, oh well, that
is exactly if I have a missionor a ministry or a calling or
(51:48):
whatever you want to name itLike, that's it.
It's to make people feel seenand safe.
And so that was when I was likemaybe I should write a song as
Flamy and see what that feelslike.
And lo and behold, you know Igot a whole album out of it and
I'm still writing as Flamy andthere'll be another album next
year.
And yeah, it's, it's wild, butI am so grateful that the
(52:14):
universe showed me this path.
Coach Alex Ray (52:16):
I am so excited.
Another album next year, yes,oh my God.
Well, before we close now, Iwould love to hear what do you
want to share with everyone,what is coming up, what's
exciting in your world, andwhere can they find and follow
you?
Flamy Grant (52:35):
Well, I'm really easy to find.
I'm the only Flamy Grant outthere.
It's just like Amy Grant, butwith a little flame on the front
.
And yeah, my, my.
If you go to my website,flamygrant.
com, you'll see all of myupcoming shows.
I am touring a lot right nowbecause I'm just I'm basically
saying yes to everything andalso seeking out touring
opportunities, so this is myfull-time job.
(52:57):
I'm trying to make it work, soyou will find me very likely on
the road near you at some pointover the next few months.
So come see me.
And yeah, like I said, we'reI'm dropping a new single this
month, at the end of October,for spooky season.
Coach Alex Ray (53:15):
Yes.
Flamy Grant (53:16):
Yes, it's called fortune teller, so I'm not sure
when this will be out, but checkand see if fortune teller is
out.
And then after that, yeah,we've been working on a new
record with a team that I'mputting together and very
excited about, and it probablywon't be out until, I mean, a
year from now to be, to behonest, we'll be recording in
(53:39):
the spring, and then there'sjust a lot of work that goes in
after that.
But yeah, but it's yeah.
Other than that, catch me onthe road girl.
Coach Alex Ray (53:50):
Perfect, all right, and we'll have all of
that linked in the show notes.
They can find everything yourtour dates and everything on
your website, right?
Yes, absolutely Perfect, allright.
Any final closing thoughts thatyou'd like to share with anyone
?
Flamy Grant (54:05):
Hmm, maybe just be a be a Shane Slayer.
Look, I can't even say it, butit's the same slab baby.
We've got enough shame in theworld, we need you to slay it.
Yeah, that's all.
Coach Alex Ray (54:23):
I love it.
Flamy Grant everyone, thank youso much for being here with me
today.
Thanks for sharing your wisdomand your insights and your
vulnerability.
It's just been an absolutepleasure and delight getting to
know more of you today andlearning from your experiences.
Flamy Grant (54:43):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
This is absolutely delightful.
Coach Alex Ray (54:47):
You're so welcome.
All right, everyone.
I will see you on the nextepisode.
Bye.
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