August 3, 2025 • 33 mins
In today’s episode of the Quiet Warrior Podcast, we have the pleasure of speaking with Susan Callender, a certified success coach, the host of the Social Skills Mastery Podcast, and the founder of Social Confidence Pro. Susan shares her journey from being a shy, reserved child to becoming a successful professional and coach who now helps socially reluctant high achievers build confidence and improve their social skills. This episode is studded with valuable insights for introverts and quiet achievers who struggle with stepping into the spotlight and speaking up, whether at work or in social situations.
Key Takeaways:
- The Roots of Shyness: Susan reflects on her childhood, describing herself as "lifelong shy," and discusses how social reluctance impacted her professional aspirations, particularly in sales and public speaking.
- The Fear of Rejection: She dives deep into how fear of social judgment and rejection can hold introverts back, even when they are highly skilled and competent in their jobs.
- The Turning Point: Susan shares a pivotal moment when a publicist’s blunt words made her realize that shyness was holding her back from fully embracing her success. Despite her achievements, she was avoiding the spotlight.
- Overcoming Social Fear: With the help of coaching, Susan reprogrammed her thoughts to move from overthinking and self-doubt to taking small, actionable steps to step up and own her brilliance.
- Neuroplasticity and Rewiring Your Brain: Susan emphasizes how you can rewire your brain to become more socially confident, sharing how changing your thoughts and perceptions can lead to professional success and personal transformation.
- Overcoming Overthinking: Learn how overthinking can be detrimental to progress, and how learning to trust yourself and make quick, confident decisions can open doors in both your personal and professional life.
Reflective Questions for Listeners:
- When was the last time you held yourself back in a professional setting due to fear of rejection or self-doubt?
- What thought patterns do you have that may be hindering your ability to speak up and be seen?
- Can you recall a childhood experience that shaped how you show up socially today?
Resources:
Susan’s Program – The School of Social Mastery: a selective, small-group cohort program designed to help rising professionals and entrepreneurs overcome social reluctance and build the confidence to speak up and stand out. Through coaching, participants learn to navigate their fears and step confidently into social situations, professionally and personally.
Find Susan:
- Website:Social Confidence Pro
- Instagram:@socialconfidencecoach
- YouTube:Social Confidence Coach
- LinkedIn:Susan Calendar
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This episode was edited by Aura House Productions
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Serena Loh.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial and lack goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith the calm, introspective and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique andpowerful about being an
(00:21):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome, hello and thanks forjoining me on the Quiet Warrior
podcast.
Our guest today is SusanCallender, a certified success
(00:41):
coach, the host of the SocialSkills Mastery podcast and
founder of Social Confidence Pro, where she runs the School of
Social Mastery.
She helps sharp, high-achieving, yet socially reluctant
professionals polish theirpeople's skills so they can feel
confident to show up, speak upand add more value in the
(01:02):
careers they love.
Susan, welcome to the QuietWarrior podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Thank you so much, Serena.
I'm very happy to be here withyou.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Susan, can you take us back to the start of your
story?
What was it like for you as achild?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Well, I would call myself lifelong shy.
I just believe it was myfactory setting.
That's how I came out of thewomb.
I have three siblings and I wasalways the most quiet and
reserved, also the most seriousand focused, and I took that
into my schoolwork and thenlater into my career.
(01:39):
But the shyness I'd never doneanything about.
So when it came to time to goto college and then start my
first job, I still was holdingback in areas where I should
have been more speaking up andmaking myself known and stepping
(02:01):
toward the spotlight, and thatstarted affecting my life, my
career, my livelihood.
And that's where I realized Ihad a problem.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
How did this show up, particularly with your
professional aspirations?
How was this shyness getting inyour way?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
That's a great question.
I would say the first time Ireally noticed it professionally
was in my very first job out ofcollege.
I was in a sales role that Ithought was an internal sales
role because I didn't know anybetter.
It was truly my first real joband they asked me to go out and
sell, to approach people, and Igave them a hard no that that
(02:49):
was just not going to happen.
Fortunately, I was very good atmy job and I was valued for the
contributions that I made inthis role, and they did not push
back too hard on my not goingout to sell.
(03:10):
Now, if customers came to me,they would be sold, they would
buy whatever I wanted them tobuy, but if I had to go out and
approach them, it just wasn'tgoing to happen.
I just did not have that in me.
I was fearful.
It goes right back to shynessand fear of social judgment and
(03:33):
what people think of me and whathappens if they say no.
I just couldn't handle it, andso that was really my first big
oh, my goodness.
This is a problem, and it's ona stage with many people that
have the keys to my futurewatching me.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
And that's really interesting because you also
said that the companyappreciated and valued you for
your contributions.
So they did see that you havethat potential, you have that
ability to do your job reallywell.
The problem was the going outversus them coming to you.
When the customer comes to you,you have no difficulty selling
(04:14):
them, but if you had to go outto sell to them, that became a
problem.
Why do you think that was?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Fear, nervousness and fear.
And fear is created, I learnedlater, created in my mind.
It didn't exist.
No one disliked me.
People wanted my product.
I happened to be in thehigh-end hotel business, so they
loved my product.
But it was me in my mindthinking something's going to go
(04:43):
wrong.
But it was me in my mindthinking something's going to go
wrong.
And that is the crux of socialfear and reluctance and being
reserved.
We overthink and we wouldrather stay to ourselves than to
put ourselves in a positionwhere a person may reject us in
(05:05):
whatever way.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
And there are many iterations of rejection.
So how did you overcome yourown sales reluctance so that you
could do your job better?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, I would tell you, Serena, it didn't happen
for years because I thought, asI said, when I was a child, that
it was just my factory setting.
I thought that that was justhow I was and that was that.
But I left that job and withintwo years or so I started my
first company, and that companywent really well too.
(05:40):
It took off.
It ended up being one of themost popular in its category in
my region and I did really welltoo.
It took off.
It ended up being one of themost popular in its category in
my region and I did really well.
And the media came calling andI went running.
I would hide from the media.
I could not face anything thatcould potentially put me in my
(06:03):
mind harm's way of people sayingthat they didn't like me, they
didn't like how I sound, theydon't like what I'm selling,
they don't want my product, theydon't want to work with my
company, they don't like me Allmade up in my mind Because, as I
said, the media came calling.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Obviously I was doing well, but I just could not
bring myself to believe that ofachievement, as you mentioned
yourself, becomes a basis forfeeling exposed, feeling unsafe
because you're out there.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, said Serena, absolutely.
I felt while I was doingsomething and this goes right
along with the people that Iserve While I was doing
something that I was very welltrained for I had the best
internships in college, I wastruly ready well prepared for my
(07:16):
career, but I was not preparedto be in the spotlight.
I was just prepared to do agood job.
I wanted to work my way up andmake whatever financial
benchmarks there were andsurpass them, but I never
thought of people watching me orlooking at me or focusing on me
as I did that, and that partheld me back in many ways, many
(07:49):
ways.
I would have my employees go outand say that they were me, or I
should say they didn't go outto say they were me.
I would ask them if they wouldtell a reporter, a person from a
television station, aninterviewer from a magazine or a
newspaper.
I would ask them to impersonateme, go out there and say you're
me.
(08:09):
You know what to say.
I did it on more than oneoccasion and they would have
their picture in the magazine orthe newspaper or they'd be on
that tv clip and I had noproblem with it because I was
protected.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
How long did this go on?
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Oh, on and off, for maybe I would say within a
10-year span.
That was quite a while it wasit was.
And then I had a turning point,and the turning point was I had
a publicist and we were on ourway to a photo shoot and I was
(08:54):
very, very nervous and she saidwhy are you acting like a crazy
person?
And I stopped.
We were walking down a streetin Boston where I'm based and I
said, wow, she just called me acrazy person.
Do I act like a crazy person?
I'm just nervous, I'm just shy.
(09:15):
And that's when I said oh,nobody understands when you are
good at what you do, serena, youhave the degrees, you have the
skills, you have the credentials.
No one wants to hear thatyou're an introvert.
The last thing they expect tohear from you is I'm shy or I
(09:41):
don't want to go to thatnetworking event.
They expect you, when they askyou if you'll do the
presentation, to say yes, notsit there with a look of a deer
in headlights.
And that's when I realized justthose few words why are you
acting like a crazy person?
(10:01):
That even people who knew mewell professionally did not get
me when I did not show up likethe polished professional that I
should have been.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So that was the turning point.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
It was.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, and what happened after?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
That didn't change everything for me.
One story that I've toldseveral times my company was
hired to handle many, manyevents for the Democratic
National Convention theconvention where the president
of the United States isnominated and my company was.
(10:45):
We had the greatest number ofcontracts, so it was a really,
really big deal.
And CNN came to interview meand I said yes, and then, as the
interview was about to start,as they were counting down to do
the interview, like five, four,three, I pulled the microphone
(11:11):
off and I said I'm so sorry, Ican't do this.
I don't believe.
I said yes, I apologize, Ishould have never been here, I'm
so sorry, and I walked off theset.
And that was a major thing in mylife that I did not do that and
it hurt me a lot that I was notgetting better.
(11:31):
I wanted to get better.
I wanted to show up in all ofmy power.
I'm a very intelligent person,I'm well-educated.
How come I cannot speak aboutsomething that I know so well,
something that people want somuch?
There is a barrier in my brainthat's keeping me on one side of
(11:58):
social confidence and not ableto clear that hurdle, and I
wanted very, very much to.
Now I will say, serena, that Idid end up 24 hours later saving
that interview and it becamesomething that people saw around
the country and it was a reallybig deal.
(12:20):
But it took a lot for me to dothat, but I did it.
I reached out to that reporterbecause I knew that I had to
show up for myself and representmy company well and represent
my company.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
well, I'm curious what happened in that 24 hours
to help you turn your mindaround and your thinking around,
so that you were able to reachout to that?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
reporter.
I confided in a friend who wasalso in a business that was very
much in the public eye and hetold me what to do.
He gave me a really goodtalking to, as they say, like a
scolding, like you have nobusiness doing what you're doing
if you can't go out there andspeak about it.
(13:11):
And just in the few minutes ofsetting up, the few minutes of
setting up the, the um interview, the, the first day that cnn
was to interview me, the anchor,and because this is taking
place in boston, because they'rethere for the democratic
national convention, and theyjust happened to mention what
hotel they were at, and I wentto that hotel and I asked them
(13:36):
to for a redo and they did itand it worked out really well.
But it possibly could not have.
But from that it's just been acrazy life, serena, because
there's so much fear.
(13:57):
But knowing that the fear doesnot belong within me and that's
why I work so well with myclients who are in that same
position Recognize where thatfear is coming from.
When did it begin?
At what times do you have nofear at all?
(14:21):
Are you fully confident in yourrole?
And what happens?
What's said to you in thatmoment, between pure calm and
sheer terror, what thought didyou have?
How did that thought make youfeel?
What outcome do you want?
(14:41):
And when you determine that theoutcome that you want is
success in your profession oryour business, to get that
client be able to speak up inthat meeting, to walk into that
networking event and have agreat time, then you change your
thought and say I can do this.
I have what it takes.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I like how you've used a series of reflective
questions to do some kind ofemotional detective work,
because I think that is the rootcause, isn't it?
There's always something thathas happened or something
somebody said, and usually itwas in the formative period,
when we were growing up, when wewere young and impressionable,
(15:27):
we believed everything andeveryone around us, especially
if they were authority figures,and whatever they said whether
it was a throwaway sentence orunintentional or unconscious we
believed it all, and so thatbecame part of our identity, and
it's almost like we picked andwe chose certain things to hold
on to and then the certainthings we just didn't register
(15:50):
at all and we only kept thoseparts that reinforced that we
are shy, we're not good enough,we're not like other people, we
don't fit in, we don't belong,and somehow we absorbed all that
and took it into adulthood aswell.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Absolutely, serena.
You hit the nail on the head.
That's exactly what happens forso many people.
They are in a position whenthey're young generally the
first set of formative years isbetween the age of four and
seven and they are in, let's saythey're in their grade school
(16:32):
classroom.
Let's say they're in the secondgrade and they love school,
can't wait to go to school andsee their friends and they love
their teacher and they like tostand up and help the teacher
and maybe write things on theboard.
And then one day the teachercalls on them and the teacher
asks them, let's say, to recitesomething or to present their
(16:54):
homework, to read their homeworkout loud to the class.
And that child, let's say theystumble over their words and a
mean child in the classroommimics them stumbling over their
words.
Let's say they say, let's saythe person reading the report
(17:15):
says that, ah, that's the firstwords that come out of their
mouth as they gather theirthoughts to speak.
And then a child sitting a fewseats away says ah, ah.
And then another child laughsand in those few seconds, serena
, that once confident child thatloves school, that loved their
(17:39):
teacher, that loves to stand upand present, no longer wants to
do it, but wait.
Then they go into their nextclass and because of what just
happened in that first class,when that second teacher asked
them to speak up because theyknow that this child has the
answers they're always one ofthe first to raise their hand.
(18:00):
And they notice that that childdidn't raise their hand because
of the trauma of what justhappened in the previous class.
But then they're no longerseven, they're 27 or 37.
And they're in a professionalworld or they have a startup,
(18:22):
and that same situation is stillin the back of their mind,
except they don't realize thatthat is what it was.
Sorry to go on so long.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
No, I think this is so important for our listeners
because we we think that a lotof our problems are present
problems, but actuallyeverything that has happened in
the past contributes to who weare now, and everything that we
decide to be in the present alsoshapes our future.
So everything is adding up to aversion of ourselves.
(18:58):
So the question is, how muchautonomy, how much agency do I
have in creating the version ofmyself that is showing up
professionally today?
And so, if we can go back intime and, you know, join those
dots and understand ourselvesbetter, we can be more
compassionate, moreunderstanding, more accepting.
(19:19):
All right, so I understandwhere that came from, that came
from second grade, that camefrom seventh grade and so on.
But then how do I move forwardnow?
What do I do with all thesememories, all these past
episodes that made me feel smalland robbed me of my confidence?
How do I turn that around andthen become a different version
(19:40):
of me that is more professional?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Go for it.
To that I would say no onefeels comfortable sitting in a
meeting thinking I want to saysomething.
I'm going to say somethingafter Paula.
Oh yeah, that's a good pointshe's making.
I'm going to add to that oh,now Bill's talking.
Okay, I'll say something afterBill.
(20:05):
Oh, okay, now Matt is somethingto say I'm going to.
Okay, I'm going to addsomething to that.
And before you know it, themeeting's over and like oh okay,
I, I got away without sayinganything in that meeting.
But then it happens again andagain, and again.
But no one feels good in thatsituation.
(20:26):
You want to contribute.
So to move forward, you have torecognize it First.
Recognize that you are notwhere you want to be.
And it's noticed.
You're never flying under theradar.
Everybody knows that you arenot one to speak up, so it helps
(20:50):
to perhaps let the organizer ofthe meeting, whoever's running
the meeting, know that you'dlike to be on the agenda,
anything that you can do to makesure that your voice is heard,
if it involves going out andrepresenting the company in any
way, knowing that you're goingto go there and speak to at
least three people within 30minutes or 45 minutes, and you
(21:14):
cannot leave until you achievethat, because you have to face
it head on.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
That's the only way it's going to help but the
person who has to do thisconsciously is also
unconsciously worried that theywon't feel safe while they're
doing this head-on thing andhaving those two or three
conversations or speaking to thegroup.
So how do they manage their ownemotions so that they can feel
(21:44):
sufficiently safe to speak?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
there are numerous resources for the person who is
self-aware and realizes thatthey have some shortcomings.
If you will, in the socialspecter, you are hired for your
hard skill You're an engineer oryou're an analyst, and that is
(22:07):
what the company wants.
But they also need you to be agreat team member.
They also need you to be ableto go out and have lunch or
dinner with clients and torepresent the company well and
the individual person, whetherthey're an introvert or
(22:27):
somewhere else on that scale ofsocial reluctance that you have
to push through it and show upas a professional person who can
say words and have anotherperson respond Everyone has that
within them.
So, whether you need a therapistor you need a coach or you read
(22:54):
a good book and that helps youto go from where you are to
where you want to be, but it'snot going to happen overnight
because it's in your head.
It's in your brain that'sslowing you down and making you
overthink and making you thinkyou may say the wrong thing.
(23:19):
But through coaching I'm not atherapist, but I can speak to
coaching.
For example you will realizethat every thought that you have
that is keeping you quiet ornot involved, or perhaps not
getting the promotion or thatgreat piece of business all goes
(23:43):
back to a thought that you hadthat the other person didn't
have.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
And that leads me to ask about this LinkedIn post you
wrote recently where you saidsome of the most intelligent
people in the world, such asengineers, scientists and data
analysts, can struggle withconversations, speaking up in
meetings and making small talk,and this is not because they are
awkward or introverted, butrather due to how their brains
(24:11):
are wired.
So the clue there is in thebrain wiring.
The neural wiring is differentfor different people.
So what is different about thebrain wiring of the kind of
clients you work with, your highachieving clients?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
of clients you work with, your high achieving
clients.
A lot of it comes down to fearand worry, and it's fear of
doing the wrong thing, whereanother person will just speak
extemporaneously and feelconfident, knowing that I'm an
intelligent person and I knowthis information really well, so
I'm going to share what's on mymind, versus having a brain
(24:50):
wired in such a way that makesyou say, oh, I should rethink
this, I should be quiet until Iknow more.
Oh, other people, they probablyknow more than me and that
hesitation, that gap ofhesitation, can be exactly what
keeps you from getting what youwant.
(25:12):
Because we reward people thatare not necessarily the ones
that you have to go back tolater, the ones that you have to
extract information from.
We like the people that make iteasy for us that person who
speaks up quickly, the personand they're accurate.
(25:33):
Of course, accuracy and havingthe correct information very
important, but when that personspeaks up quickly and
confidently, well, it's nowonder why the business, or
whatever that reward may be, cango elsewhere.
So how do we rewire that?
(25:54):
Well, the good thing is thatneuroplasticity you can relearn
anything at any time.
You have to understand that youare doing things that can be
corrected that are not servingyou well and let's see what is
(26:19):
undesired and clearly undesiredand how it's affecting you
adversely.
Generally, professionally, Iwork with professional people
professionals and businessowners and see where you want to
go and we change that step bystep, micro step by micro step,
(26:44):
because we're so accustomed tobeing ourselves out in the world
that we have to pause andrealize that, oh, a person, how
they speak to us, is areflection of how they perceived
me.
So if I change how I'mperceived, then I can then see
(27:05):
that person relate to me in adifferent way and, serena, it
changes people's lives forever.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I love what you're doing because you've given
somebody back their agency andtheir autonomy when they realize
that they can affect how theyare perceived.
They can affect how other peoplesee them and how other people
value them, and they can improvethe communication so much just
by changing themselves, changingtheir own energy, their own
(27:35):
brain, wiring the thoughts thatthey have and the things that
they say to themselves.
So I think, going back a littlebit, you did say that we like
people who make things easy forus, and so therefore, we don't
like people who, in a sense,overthink and make it hard for
us, because then they think somuch and then they throw back
all these other questions andclarifications and then we have
(27:57):
to go away and do more work andthen come back and so the
problem doesn't get solved fast.
So in one of your other postsyou also wrote that
organizational overthinking andpeople-pleasing has a hidden
cost, because while thecompany's leaders are paralyzed
by social perfectionism,competitors who have authentic
confidence are closing deals.
So with what you do, how do youhelp people to overthink less,
(28:23):
or is it even possible to stopoverthinking?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
It is, and overthinking is absolutely
detrimental to progress.
In anything that you do, youshould and can be decisive and
trust yourself, and that's trulywhat it comes down to Not
trusting your words, nottrusting your thoughts.
Not trusting your words, nottrusting your thoughts, thinking
(28:49):
that perhaps you will saysomething wrong or there will be
some adverse outcome, andthat's just not true.
Now is it important to pauseand have a thought?
Yes, but overthinking is assimple as having that thought,
parsing it out, but thenthinking it again, and it's that
(29:15):
thinking it again.
That's where you begin todistrust yourself, and when you
distrust yourself, that is whatbasically holds you back, and
it's very noticeable.
It's noticeable in yourprogress in many things.
How we do one thing, Serena, ishow we do everything.
(29:36):
No one is an overthinkerprofessionally and not in other
areas of their life, and so whenyou change one thing, you can
change everything.
That's the beauty of the workthat I do.
I work with people in theprofessional realm, but it also
(30:01):
improves their personal lives aswell.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I agree with you.
There is something powerfullymagical.
I agree with you.
There is something powerfullymagical.
When you change the energyinside yourself, when you change
your own thinking, the qualityof your thoughts, you can't help
but affect everything else,because there's a ripple effect
and everything is interconnected.
So I love that.
Now tell us about your program,susan, the school of social
mastery.
(30:26):
Who is it for and where can wefind out more?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
The School of Social Mastery is a small group cohort
program that is designed forrising professionals,
entrepreneurs, people who arecharacteristically reserved,
reluctant socially.
You want to be able to walkinto any room any time and speak
to anyone, and that is trulyyour goal.
(30:59):
But you find yourself athurdles and you don't know how
to jump around or walk around orstep over that hurdle, how to
jump around or walk around orstep over that hurdle, and so
that's what the School of SocialMastery does.
It's a small group, so it's nota huge membership where just
(31:20):
anyone and everyone can come in.
It's selective and it's a placefor you to get comfortable,
because your brilliance justisn't enough to survive in
today's professional world.
You have to be able to speak upand show up and stand out with
(31:41):
the value that you bring youhave value.
You are valuable and I assureyou that people want to hear
from you and after going throughthis program, you will feel so
much more comfortable doing that.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Fabulous, and what's the best way for people to
follow you and connect with you?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Well, the School of Social Mastery.
They can find that atsocialconfidenceprocom forward
slash mastery and I'm availableon all the socials and YouTube
Social Confidence Coach onInstagram, youtube, facebook and
LinkedIn and they're welcome toconnect with me anywhere.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
That's wonderful.
Thank you, Susan, for coming onthe Quiet Warrior podcast and
sharing your wisdom and insightswith us today.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Thank you so much, serena, it was my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
If you've enjoyed this conversation and want more
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rating and review on yourpodcast app, so the Quiet
Warrior podcast can reach moreintroverts around the world.
See you on the next episode.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere today.
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
(32:56):
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
favorite listening platform.
Together, we can help moreintroverts thrive.
To receive more upliftingcontent like this, connect with
me on Instagram at Serena LoQuiet Warrior Coach.
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
See you on the next episode.
Hi, I'm Serena Loh.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial and lack goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith the calm, introspective and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique andpowerful about being an
(00:21):
introvert, and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome, hello and thanks forjoining me on the Quiet Warrior
podcast.
Our guest today is SusanCallender, a certified success
(00:41):
coach, the host of the SocialSkills Mastery podcast and
founder of Social Confidence Pro, where she runs the School of
Social Mastery.
She helps sharp, high-achieving, yet socially reluctant
professionals polish theirpeople's skills so they can feel
confident to show up, speak upand add more value in the
(01:02):
careers they love.
Susan, welcome to the QuietWarrior podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Thank you so much, Serena.
I'm very happy to be here withyou.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Susan, can you take us back to the start of your
story?
What was it like for you as achild?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Well, I would call myself lifelong shy.
I just believe it was myfactory setting.
That's how I came out of thewomb.
I have three siblings and I wasalways the most quiet and
reserved, also the most seriousand focused, and I took that
into my schoolwork and thenlater into my career.
(01:39):
But the shyness I'd never doneanything about.
So when it came to time to goto college and then start my
first job, I still was holdingback in areas where I should
have been more speaking up andmaking myself known and stepping
(02:01):
toward the spotlight, and thatstarted affecting my life, my
career, my livelihood.
And that's where I realized Ihad a problem.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
How did this show up, particularly with your
professional aspirations?
How was this shyness getting inyour way?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
That's a great question.
I would say the first time Ireally noticed it professionally
was in my very first job out ofcollege.
I was in a sales role that Ithought was an internal sales
role because I didn't know anybetter.
It was truly my first real joband they asked me to go out and
sell, to approach people, and Igave them a hard no that that
(02:49):
was just not going to happen.
Fortunately, I was very good atmy job and I was valued for the
contributions that I made inthis role, and they did not push
back too hard on my not goingout to sell.
(03:10):
Now, if customers came to me,they would be sold, they would
buy whatever I wanted them tobuy, but if I had to go out and
approach them, it just wasn'tgoing to happen.
I just did not have that in me.
I was fearful.
It goes right back to shynessand fear of social judgment and
(03:33):
what people think of me and whathappens if they say no.
I just couldn't handle it, andso that was really my first big
oh, my goodness.
This is a problem, and it's ona stage with many people that
have the keys to my futurewatching me.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
And that's really interesting because you also
said that the companyappreciated and valued you for
your contributions.
So they did see that you havethat potential, you have that
ability to do your job reallywell.
The problem was the going outversus them coming to you.
When the customer comes to you,you have no difficulty selling
(04:14):
them, but if you had to go outto sell to them, that became a
problem.
Why do you think that was?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Fear, nervousness and fear.
And fear is created, I learnedlater, created in my mind.
It didn't exist.
No one disliked me.
People wanted my product.
I happened to be in thehigh-end hotel business, so they
loved my product.
But it was me in my mindthinking something's going to go
(04:43):
wrong.
But it was me in my mindthinking something's going to go
wrong.
And that is the crux of socialfear and reluctance and being
reserved.
We overthink and we wouldrather stay to ourselves than to
put ourselves in a positionwhere a person may reject us in
(05:05):
whatever way.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
And there are many iterations of rejection.
So how did you overcome yourown sales reluctance so that you
could do your job better?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, I would tell you, Serena, it didn't happen
for years because I thought, asI said, when I was a child, that
it was just my factory setting.
I thought that that was justhow I was and that was that.
But I left that job and withintwo years or so I started my
first company, and that companywent really well too.
(05:40):
It took off.
It ended up being one of themost popular in its category in
my region and I did really welltoo.
It took off.
It ended up being one of themost popular in its category in
my region and I did really well.
And the media came calling andI went running.
I would hide from the media.
I could not face anything thatcould potentially put me in my
(06:03):
mind harm's way of people sayingthat they didn't like me, they
didn't like how I sound, theydon't like what I'm selling,
they don't want my product, theydon't want to work with my
company, they don't like me Allmade up in my mind Because, as I
said, the media came calling.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Obviously I was doing well, but I just could not
bring myself to believe that ofachievement, as you mentioned
yourself, becomes a basis forfeeling exposed, feeling unsafe
because you're out there.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, said Serena, absolutely.
I felt while I was doingsomething and this goes right
along with the people that Iserve While I was doing
something that I was very welltrained for I had the best
internships in college, I wastruly ready well prepared for my
(07:16):
career, but I was not preparedto be in the spotlight.
I was just prepared to do agood job.
I wanted to work my way up andmake whatever financial
benchmarks there were andsurpass them, but I never
thought of people watching me orlooking at me or focusing on me
as I did that, and that partheld me back in many ways, many
(07:49):
ways.
I would have my employees go outand say that they were me, or I
should say they didn't go outto say they were me.
I would ask them if they wouldtell a reporter, a person from a
television station, aninterviewer from a magazine or a
newspaper.
I would ask them to impersonateme, go out there and say you're
me.
(08:09):
You know what to say.
I did it on more than oneoccasion and they would have
their picture in the magazine orthe newspaper or they'd be on
that tv clip and I had noproblem with it because I was
protected.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
How long did this go on?
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Oh, on and off, for maybe I would say within a
10-year span.
That was quite a while it wasit was.
And then I had a turning point,and the turning point was I had
a publicist and we were on ourway to a photo shoot and I was
(08:54):
very, very nervous and she saidwhy are you acting like a crazy
person?
And I stopped.
We were walking down a streetin Boston where I'm based and I
said, wow, she just called me acrazy person.
Do I act like a crazy person?
I'm just nervous, I'm just shy.
(09:15):
And that's when I said oh,nobody understands when you are
good at what you do, serena, youhave the degrees, you have the
skills, you have the credentials.
No one wants to hear thatyou're an introvert.
The last thing they expect tohear from you is I'm shy or I
(09:41):
don't want to go to thatnetworking event.
They expect you, when they askyou if you'll do the
presentation, to say yes, notsit there with a look of a deer
in headlights.
And that's when I realized justthose few words why are you
acting like a crazy person?
(10:01):
That even people who knew mewell professionally did not get
me when I did not show up likethe polished professional that I
should have been.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So that was the turning point.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
It was.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, and what happened after?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
That didn't change everything for me.
One story that I've toldseveral times my company was
hired to handle many, manyevents for the Democratic
National Convention theconvention where the president
of the United States isnominated and my company was.
(10:45):
We had the greatest number ofcontracts, so it was a really,
really big deal.
And CNN came to interview meand I said yes, and then, as the
interview was about to start,as they were counting down to do
the interview, like five, four,three, I pulled the microphone
(11:11):
off and I said I'm so sorry, Ican't do this.
I don't believe.
I said yes, I apologize, Ishould have never been here, I'm
so sorry, and I walked off theset.
And that was a major thing in mylife that I did not do that and
it hurt me a lot that I was notgetting better.
(11:31):
I wanted to get better.
I wanted to show up in all ofmy power.
I'm a very intelligent person,I'm well-educated.
How come I cannot speak aboutsomething that I know so well,
something that people want somuch?
There is a barrier in my brainthat's keeping me on one side of
(11:58):
social confidence and not ableto clear that hurdle, and I
wanted very, very much to.
Now I will say, serena, that Idid end up 24 hours later saving
that interview and it becamesomething that people saw around
the country and it was a reallybig deal.
(12:20):
But it took a lot for me to dothat, but I did it.
I reached out to that reporterbecause I knew that I had to
show up for myself and representmy company well and represent
my company.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
well, I'm curious what happened in that 24 hours
to help you turn your mindaround and your thinking around,
so that you were able to reachout to that?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
reporter.
I confided in a friend who wasalso in a business that was very
much in the public eye and hetold me what to do.
He gave me a really goodtalking to, as they say, like a
scolding, like you have nobusiness doing what you're doing
if you can't go out there andspeak about it.
(13:11):
And just in the few minutes ofsetting up, the few minutes of
setting up the, the um interview, the, the first day that cnn
was to interview me, the anchor,and because this is taking
place in boston, because they'rethere for the democratic
national convention, and theyjust happened to mention what
hotel they were at, and I wentto that hotel and I asked them
(13:36):
to for a redo and they did itand it worked out really well.
But it possibly could not have.
But from that it's just been acrazy life, serena, because
there's so much fear.
(13:57):
But knowing that the fear doesnot belong within me and that's
why I work so well with myclients who are in that same
position Recognize where thatfear is coming from.
When did it begin?
At what times do you have nofear at all?
(14:21):
Are you fully confident in yourrole?
And what happens?
What's said to you in thatmoment, between pure calm and
sheer terror, what thought didyou have?
How did that thought make youfeel?
What outcome do you want?
(14:41):
And when you determine that theoutcome that you want is
success in your profession oryour business, to get that
client be able to speak up inthat meeting, to walk into that
networking event and have agreat time, then you change your
thought and say I can do this.
I have what it takes.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I like how you've used a series of reflective
questions to do some kind ofemotional detective work,
because I think that is the rootcause, isn't it?
There's always something thathas happened or something
somebody said, and usually itwas in the formative period,
when we were growing up, when wewere young and impressionable,
(15:27):
we believed everything andeveryone around us, especially
if they were authority figures,and whatever they said whether
it was a throwaway sentence orunintentional or unconscious we
believed it all, and so thatbecame part of our identity, and
it's almost like we picked andwe chose certain things to hold
on to and then the certainthings we just didn't register
(15:50):
at all and we only kept thoseparts that reinforced that we
are shy, we're not good enough,we're not like other people, we
don't fit in, we don't belong,and somehow we absorbed all that
and took it into adulthood aswell.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Absolutely, serena.
You hit the nail on the head.
That's exactly what happens forso many people.
They are in a position whenthey're young generally the
first set of formative years isbetween the age of four and
seven and they are in, let's saythey're in their grade school
(16:32):
classroom.
Let's say they're in the secondgrade and they love school,
can't wait to go to school andsee their friends and they love
their teacher and they like tostand up and help the teacher
and maybe write things on theboard.
And then one day the teachercalls on them and the teacher
asks them, let's say, to recitesomething or to present their
(16:54):
homework, to read their homeworkout loud to the class.
And that child, let's say theystumble over their words and a
mean child in the classroommimics them stumbling over their
words.
Let's say they say, let's saythe person reading the report
(17:15):
says that, ah, that's the firstwords that come out of their
mouth as they gather theirthoughts to speak.
And then a child sitting a fewseats away says ah, ah.
And then another child laughsand in those few seconds, serena
, that once confident child thatloves school, that loved their
(17:39):
teacher, that loves to stand upand present, no longer wants to
do it, but wait.
Then they go into their nextclass and because of what just
happened in that first class,when that second teacher asked
them to speak up because theyknow that this child has the
answers they're always one ofthe first to raise their hand.
(18:00):
And they notice that that childdidn't raise their hand because
of the trauma of what justhappened in the previous class.
But then they're no longerseven, they're 27 or 37.
And they're in a professionalworld or they have a startup,
(18:22):
and that same situation is stillin the back of their mind,
except they don't realize thatthat is what it was.
Sorry to go on so long.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
No, I think this is so important for our listeners
because we we think that a lotof our problems are present
problems, but actuallyeverything that has happened in
the past contributes to who weare now, and everything that we
decide to be in the present alsoshapes our future.
So everything is adding up to aversion of ourselves.
(18:58):
So the question is, how muchautonomy, how much agency do I
have in creating the version ofmyself that is showing up
professionally today?
And so, if we can go back intime and, you know, join those
dots and understand ourselvesbetter, we can be more
compassionate, moreunderstanding, more accepting.
(19:19):
All right, so I understandwhere that came from, that came
from second grade, that camefrom seventh grade and so on.
But then how do I move forwardnow?
What do I do with all thesememories, all these past
episodes that made me feel smalland robbed me of my confidence?
How do I turn that around andthen become a different version
(19:40):
of me that is more professional?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Go for it.
To that I would say no onefeels comfortable sitting in a
meeting thinking I want to saysomething.
I'm going to say somethingafter Paula.
Oh yeah, that's a good pointshe's making.
I'm going to add to that oh,now Bill's talking.
Okay, I'll say something afterBill.
(20:05):
Oh, okay, now Matt is somethingto say I'm going to.
Okay, I'm going to addsomething to that.
And before you know it, themeeting's over and like oh okay,
I, I got away without sayinganything in that meeting.
But then it happens again andagain, and again.
But no one feels good in thatsituation.
(20:26):
You want to contribute.
So to move forward, you have torecognize it First.
Recognize that you are notwhere you want to be.
And it's noticed.
You're never flying under theradar.
Everybody knows that you arenot one to speak up, so it helps
(20:50):
to perhaps let the organizer ofthe meeting, whoever's running
the meeting, know that you'dlike to be on the agenda,
anything that you can do to makesure that your voice is heard,
if it involves going out andrepresenting the company in any
way, knowing that you're goingto go there and speak to at
least three people within 30minutes or 45 minutes, and you
(21:14):
cannot leave until you achievethat, because you have to face
it head on.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
That's the only way it's going to help but the
person who has to do thisconsciously is also
unconsciously worried that theywon't feel safe while they're
doing this head-on thing andhaving those two or three
conversations or speaking to thegroup.
So how do they manage their ownemotions so that they can feel
(21:44):
sufficiently safe to speak?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
there are numerous resources for the person who is
self-aware and realizes thatthey have some shortcomings.
If you will, in the socialspecter, you are hired for your
hard skill You're an engineer oryou're an analyst, and that is
(22:07):
what the company wants.
But they also need you to be agreat team member.
They also need you to be ableto go out and have lunch or
dinner with clients and torepresent the company well and
the individual person, whetherthey're an introvert or
(22:27):
somewhere else on that scale ofsocial reluctance that you have
to push through it and show upas a professional person who can
say words and have anotherperson respond Everyone has that
within them.
So, whether you need a therapistor you need a coach or you read
(22:54):
a good book and that helps youto go from where you are to
where you want to be, but it'snot going to happen overnight
because it's in your head.
It's in your brain that'sslowing you down and making you
overthink and making you thinkyou may say the wrong thing.
(23:19):
But through coaching I'm not atherapist, but I can speak to
coaching.
For example you will realizethat every thought that you have
that is keeping you quiet ornot involved, or perhaps not
getting the promotion or thatgreat piece of business all goes
(23:43):
back to a thought that you hadthat the other person didn't
have.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
And that leads me to ask about this LinkedIn post you
wrote recently where you saidsome of the most intelligent
people in the world, such asengineers, scientists and data
analysts, can struggle withconversations, speaking up in
meetings and making small talk,and this is not because they are
awkward or introverted, butrather due to how their brains
(24:11):
are wired.
So the clue there is in thebrain wiring.
The neural wiring is differentfor different people.
So what is different about thebrain wiring of the kind of
clients you work with, your highachieving clients?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
of clients you work with, your high achieving
clients.
A lot of it comes down to fearand worry, and it's fear of
doing the wrong thing, whereanother person will just speak
extemporaneously and feelconfident, knowing that I'm an
intelligent person and I knowthis information really well, so
I'm going to share what's on mymind, versus having a brain
(24:50):
wired in such a way that makesyou say, oh, I should rethink
this, I should be quiet until Iknow more.
Oh, other people, they probablyknow more than me and that
hesitation, that gap ofhesitation, can be exactly what
keeps you from getting what youwant.
(25:12):
Because we reward people thatare not necessarily the ones
that you have to go back tolater, the ones that you have to
extract information from.
We like the people that make iteasy for us that person who
speaks up quickly, the personand they're accurate.
(25:33):
Of course, accuracy and havingthe correct information very
important, but when that personspeaks up quickly and
confidently, well, it's nowonder why the business, or
whatever that reward may be, cango elsewhere.
So how do we rewire that?
(25:54):
Well, the good thing is thatneuroplasticity you can relearn
anything at any time.
You have to understand that youare doing things that can be
corrected that are not servingyou well and let's see what is
(26:19):
undesired and clearly undesiredand how it's affecting you
adversely.
Generally, professionally, Iwork with professional people
professionals and businessowners and see where you want to
go and we change that step bystep, micro step by micro step,
(26:44):
because we're so accustomed tobeing ourselves out in the world
that we have to pause andrealize that, oh, a person, how
they speak to us, is areflection of how they perceived
me.
So if I change how I'mperceived, then I can then see
(27:05):
that person relate to me in adifferent way and, serena, it
changes people's lives forever.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
I love what you're doing because you've given
somebody back their agency andtheir autonomy when they realize
that they can affect how theyare perceived.
They can affect how other peoplesee them and how other people
value them, and they can improvethe communication so much just
by changing themselves, changingtheir own energy, their own
(27:35):
brain, wiring the thoughts thatthey have and the things that
they say to themselves.
So I think, going back a littlebit, you did say that we like
people who make things easy forus, and so therefore, we don't
like people who, in a sense,overthink and make it hard for
us, because then they think somuch and then they throw back
all these other questions andclarifications and then we have
(27:57):
to go away and do more work andthen come back and so the
problem doesn't get solved fast.
So in one of your other postsyou also wrote that
organizational overthinking andpeople-pleasing has a hidden
cost, because while thecompany's leaders are paralyzed
by social perfectionism,competitors who have authentic
confidence are closing deals.
So with what you do, how do youhelp people to overthink less,
(28:23):
or is it even possible to stopoverthinking?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
It is, and overthinking is absolutely
detrimental to progress.
In anything that you do, youshould and can be decisive and
trust yourself, and that's trulywhat it comes down to Not
trusting your words, nottrusting your thoughts.
Not trusting your words, nottrusting your thoughts, thinking
(28:49):
that perhaps you will saysomething wrong or there will be
some adverse outcome, andthat's just not true.
Now is it important to pauseand have a thought?
Yes, but overthinking is assimple as having that thought,
parsing it out, but thenthinking it again, and it's that
(29:15):
thinking it again.
That's where you begin todistrust yourself, and when you
distrust yourself, that is whatbasically holds you back, and
it's very noticeable.
It's noticeable in yourprogress in many things.
How we do one thing, Serena, ishow we do everything.
(29:36):
No one is an overthinkerprofessionally and not in other
areas of their life, and so whenyou change one thing, you can
change everything.
That's the beauty of the workthat I do.
I work with people in theprofessional realm, but it also
(30:01):
improves their personal lives aswell.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I agree with you.
There is something powerfullymagical.
I agree with you.
There is something powerfullymagical.
When you change the energyinside yourself, when you change
your own thinking, the qualityof your thoughts, you can't help
but affect everything else,because there's a ripple effect
and everything is interconnected.
So I love that.
Now tell us about your program,susan, the school of social
mastery.
(30:26):
Who is it for and where can wefind out more?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
The School of Social Mastery is a small group cohort
program that is designed forrising professionals,
entrepreneurs, people who arecharacteristically reserved,
reluctant socially.
You want to be able to walkinto any room any time and speak
to anyone, and that is trulyyour goal.
(30:59):
But you find yourself athurdles and you don't know how
to jump around or walk around orstep over that hurdle, how to
jump around or walk around orstep over that hurdle, and so
that's what the School of SocialMastery does.
It's a small group, so it's nota huge membership where just
(31:20):
anyone and everyone can come in.
It's selective and it's a placefor you to get comfortable,
because your brilliance justisn't enough to survive in
today's professional world.
You have to be able to speak upand show up and stand out with
(31:41):
the value that you bring youhave value.
You are valuable and I assureyou that people want to hear
from you and after going throughthis program, you will feel so
much more comfortable doing that.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Fabulous, and what's the best way for people to
follow you and connect with you?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Well, the School of Social Mastery.
They can find that atsocialconfidenceprocom forward
slash mastery and I'm availableon all the socials and YouTube
Social Confidence Coach onInstagram, youtube, facebook and
LinkedIn and they're welcome toconnect with me anywhere.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
That's wonderful.
Thank you, Susan, for coming onthe Quiet Warrior podcast and
sharing your wisdom and insightswith us today.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Thank you so much, serena, it was my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
If you've enjoyed this conversation and want more
content like this, make sure tosubscribe and leave a five-star
rating and review on yourpodcast app, so the Quiet
Warrior podcast can reach moreintroverts around the world.
See you on the next episode.
I'm so grateful that you'rehere today.
If you found this contentvaluable, please share it on
(32:56):
your social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
favorite listening platform.
Together, we can help moreintroverts thrive.
To receive more upliftingcontent like this, connect with
me on Instagram at Serena LoQuiet Warrior Coach.
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
See you on the next episode.
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