September 20, 2023 • 26 mins
In this episode, I sit down with the U.S.Department of Education Under Secretary of Education, James Kvaal. We discuss a number of wide raging topics including the recent Supreme Court rulings on race-conscious admission and student loan debt forgiveness. Under Secretary Kvaal discusses his goals for the latest rounds of rule making, how his team balances innovation and regulation and his thoughts on whether Congress will ever pass a Higher Education Reauthorization Act.
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Episode Transcript
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Eloy (00:10):
I'm Eloy Ortiz Oakley and welcome back to The Rant, the
podcast where we pull back thecurtain and break down the
people, the policies, and thepolitics of our higher education
system.
In this episode, we get to breakdown the policies and the
politics of our higher educationsystem with our very special
guest.
His name is James Quall, andhe's the Undersecretary at the
(00:32):
U.
S.
Department of Education.
James has been leading the U.
S.
Department of Education sincethe beginning of the Biden
administration and theundersecretary leads all of
higher education policy, whichis quite a bit.
He and his team have beenworking hard to support the
administration's goals, but alsoto ensure that the United States
(00:54):
higher education community hasthe policies and regulations and
the support it needs.
To ensure that students get aquality education.
James has been in highereducation policy for quite a
long time, beginning with theObama administration, and even
before that working withCongress.
I'll let him talk more about hisexperiences.
(01:14):
But for now, let me welcomeJames.
James, welcome to the podcast.
James (01:19):
Thanks for having
Eloy (01:20):
Well, it's great to have you, Mr.
Secretary.
Appreciate you being on thepodcast.
There's been so much going on inthe Biden administration over
the last couple of years, andparticularly in the department
of education, you've navigated apandemic, you've seen changes in
Congress.
Student debt relief debates andof course, a few SCOTUS rulings
(01:43):
along the way that continue tochange the dynamics in the U S
department of education.
You've also dealt with predatoryfor profit tactics and a whole
slew of to propose regulatorychanges.
So before we get into all that.
I want to take some time andmake sure that our listeners get
(02:04):
to know you.
for those who have not had thepleasure of getting to know you
the way I have, tell us aboutyour higher education journey
and what led you to your careerin public service and your role
as the Undersecretary at the U.
S.
Department of Education.
James (02:19):
I was fortunate, through the sacrifices of my parents, I
went to an excellent publicschool system.
I attended two greatuniversities and, I know the
kinds of opportunities thateducation opened up for me and
those are opportunities that,you know, I think every, person
in this country should have.
(02:39):
the other, big piece of it forme was, my parents, my mom in
particular, was a lifelongfederal civil servant.
She was very involved in, townpolitics, town government, and
just had a real, idealism abouther, a real belief that
government was a way for us tocome together and solve problems
(02:59):
and make people's lives better.
that was really inspiring for meand I, after college, I, I moved
out here.
I, volunteered on presidentClinton's reelection campaign.
I got an entry level job here atthe department of education and,
I've worked a lot on highereducation.
I've worked on other issues too.
I was policy director on thepresident Obama's reelection
(03:20):
campaign worked on all domesticpolicy issues at the white
house, but have kept coming backto higher education because I
think.
It is so critical to so many ofour country's problems.
If you're worried about incomestagnation or inequality or
economic growth, you know, weneed strong colleges and
(03:40):
universities to solve thoseproblems.
Eloy (03:43):
Well, it's amazing to think that you are one of those,
young, eager staffers runningaround the department of
education, and now you're theintersecretary.
So it must be really great nowworking with all these young
staffers there at the departmentwho have that same idealism that
you came with.
James (03:59):
we do have a lot of talented young people and, I'm
so grateful for.
the people who are well along intheir careers when I started out
and were, mentors to me.
I learned a lot from them,political appointees and career
staff.
And, I think it is important asI'm, as I'm no longer entering
middle age, but in middle age tobe thinking about, you know, how
(04:20):
do we help, younger people comealong and they're going to be
ones to solve, to solve theproblems we leave behind.
Eloy (04:26):
Well, I know it's always a debate in this country, but I'm
a firm believer that governmentis so important.
To ensuring that we have, notonly a country that runs well,
but a marketplace that runswell, a marketplace of ideas and
a marketplace in highereducation.
So thank you for your service.
and thank you for that story.
Now, let's jump into somequestions about what's going on
(04:49):
at the department.
I know one issue that's fresh oneverybody's mind.
Still.
I know in a lot of circles thatI run in, this is still a topic
of discussion.
The U.
S.
Supreme Court's ruling on raceconscious admissions.
I know the department recentlygathered a number of higher
education leaders at a summit totalk about these issues.
(05:10):
So, you know, How do you see theruling affecting diversity on
college and university campuses,and what kind of insights did
you and your team gather fromthat summit at the Department of
Education?
James (05:23):
Thanks for the question.
Obviously.
although the decision, wasexpected by some, or at least
not a surprise, you know, it wasstill really difficult, to see
those words on, on the page.
At least it was for me anemotional day.
And, I think what you know, whatthe president has said, and
we've taken to heart is, youknow, Supreme Court can render a
(05:46):
decision, but it can't changewhat our country stands for.
And so, when, the secretarygathered 100 higher ed leaders,
here in August, including you,Eloy to talk about what's next,
you know, I think it was areally powerful day for people
to, remember why we're doingthis work.
(06:08):
to talk about the many, manyways we can promote greater
equity and greater diversity,that are still fully permissible
and are proven to work and tobring a new sense of urgency to
that work of racial equity.
I think it is so important that.
We don't become demoralized.
(06:30):
We don't retreat.
We don't let our young peoplelower their sights, but instead
we redouble our efforts becausethat's what this moment calls
for.
Eloy (06:41):
Well, I certainly agree with that, and coming from a
state that has been operating...
under rules under a propositionthat banned the use of race
conscious admissions since 1997.
it is, it is a challenge and itcan be a challenge.
but I think that there, thereis.
Of value in a diverse studentbody, there's value in bringing
(07:04):
together different ideas,different people of all sorts of
backgrounds.
I think a university and acollege campus are stronger for
that.
We as a country is stronger forthat.
And California certainly hasbenefited from that diversity.
So I hope that we continue topush our educational leaders to
continue to look for ways tosupport.
Learners of all backgrounds intheir communities.
So thank you for the work thatyou're leading.
(07:26):
do you see any follow up to thatsummit or any expectations that
you'd like to communicate to?
institutional leaders
James (07:33):
I of course agree with you on the value of diversity.
And so does the Supreme court,you know, the majority opinion
talked about diversity as aappropriate, even laudable goal
for educational institutions.
And, you know, diversity is acore strength of our country.
That's one of the things that.
Makes us great.
So we do need to keep workingtoward that and we've put out
(07:56):
some guidance on what's legallypermissible and admissions and
student support services and nowwe're going to put out some
additional guidance on whatmodels are out there, what the
research says.
who's doing great work in thisarea.
You know, there isn't going tobe a single, simple solution.
It's going to take hard workacross preparing more people,
recruiting them for college,affordability graduation rates,
(08:19):
changing admissions policies,all of that across the board.
We're going to have to look atall of that.
Eloy (08:23):
so the supreme court has kept you pretty busy lately and
there's another issue that cameabout recently with regard to,
the administration's policy ondebt relief.
And this has been an issuethat's been discussed quite a
bit in all corners of, ofeducation, all corners of the
(08:45):
media.
What we do about the mountingstudent debt crisis that I think
we all can agree is a crisisacross this country, the amount
of debt that many learners arecarrying, whether they completed
their higher education or not.
The way that they're strugglingto pay back those loans has been
(09:05):
a real issue But the questionnow is what do we do going
forward?
Supreme Court ruled on theadministration's use of their
authority.
Around debt forgiveness.
what do you see as the wayforward for student loan debt?
What would you like borrowersto, to know about the way
forward that you and theadministration are, Paving a
(09:28):
path toward.
James (09:29):
somewhere along the, along the way we, Okay.
Decided that loans were the bestway to pay for college that is
based on the assumption that thebenefits of college are
primarily for the student andprimarily in financial terms.
And that's really a narrow viewof what education is about in
our country and the, the stakewe all have and having more
(09:52):
people graduate from college andhaving a more educated society.
And 1 of the things we saw atthe start of this administration
was the student loan system, youknow, just wasn't working very
well for a lot of people.
We had a 1, 000, 000 people ayear defaulting on their student
loans.
We saw black borrowers.
(10:12):
Owing essentially the sameamount that they borrowed after
10 or 12 years in repayment.
We saw only 7, 000 people hadever gotten public service loan
forgiveness.
So people have planned theircareers around this program,
only to learn too late that theyhad the wrong type of loan or
they were in the wrong repaymentplan.
So there's a, there's a bigissue here both in how we help
(10:33):
people with loans, how we payfor college at the outset, and
how we make sure that whensomeone is borrowing for an
education that they can expectto graduate and get a job and
get something of value.
So there's a lot of work to doin terms of the Supreme Court
decision specifically, you know,we're working very hard to fix.
(10:56):
The categorical loan forgivenessprograms that we have public
service loan forgiveness, peoplewith persistently low incomes,
people with disabilities, andwe've identified 3.
5M people eligible for thosekinds of loan forgiveness.
We've created the mostaffordable repayment plan ever
the safe plan Which cutspayments substantially,
(11:18):
especially people who have highdebts and lower incomes.
And we have 4 million peopleenrolled in that plan.
It's only a couple of weeks old.
So we're asking everyone to helpus make sure that borrowers know
that this relief is availableand enroll in that relief, and
we're going to keep at it.
You know, we have a rulemakingprocess starting here in a
(11:40):
couple of weeks, looking at whatother types of loan forgiveness
we can offer.
And the president has asked usto reach as many.
Borrowers as possible work asquickly as, as we can.
And that's what we're
Eloy (11:52):
well, I think it it is certainly the case that you have
moved quickly even before theSCOTUS ruling Post scotus ruling
the department theadministration has forgiven
quite a bit of debt already fromLearners who were defrauded by
for profit institutions learnerswho have been left in the lurch
(12:15):
for one reason or another aswell as a public student loan
forgiveness program.
So that's quite anaccomplishment and that's a lot
of debt that you've forgiven.
how do you feel about how muchyou've accomplished so far?
James (12:30):
I'm really proud of it.
I think we have an incredibleteam here.
Rich corduroy in the group atFSA, Ben Miller and Julie Morgan
and rich Williams and manyothers here at the department.
You know, we have an incrediblystrong team and we're fixing,
some of these programs.
That have been broken fordecades and delivering real
(12:51):
relief for people.
You know, that said, I know wehave a long way to go as well.
And I hear from a lot ofborrowers who are restarting
repayment, they owe payments inOctober.
There's a lot of confusion.
There's a lot of anxiety.
People are not sure how they'regoing to make room in their
budgets for student loanpayments.
For some of them, it may take.
Some time know there's there's alot of work still to do.
Eloy (13:15):
A lot of organizations are trying to get information out to
borrowers.
I know I had Mike Pierce on thisprogram from student borrower
defense.
They're doing a lot of work toget information out about the
save program, about publicstudent loan forgiveness, and a
whole host of other loanforgiveness programs.
I know civic nation is gettingthe word out there.
If people are listening todayand they say, you know, I've got
(13:37):
to get some information to myson or daughter.
I need, I need to do somethingabout my own.
A loan debt, would you directthem to go to get information?
James (13:47):
Well, the best place to go is student aid dot gov.
We have all the, all you need toknow about our repayment plans
or our loan forgiveness programsare there and you can also find
your loan servicer and callthem.
If you have more questionsplease know we'll never have to
pay for student loan advice.
If you.
See someone out there who youthink might be a scam, please
report them to the FTC and, youknow, your listeners out there
(14:10):
who might be institutionalleaders, consider signing up or
partnering with the Save onStudent Debt campaign.
They have a lot of resourcesthere in ways that are very
useful and we found, someleaders helping their employees
enroll in public service loanforgiveness.
Helping them enroll and save,you know, really can be a
tremendous help to a lot ofpeople.
(14:32):
And, and we're grateful forwhatever work can be done to get
the word out on these benefits.
Eloy (14:37):
So let's turn the corner on some of these bigger issues
that were brought to everybody'sattention because of recent
Supreme Court rulings.
And let's talk about the day today work that the department
does.
And that's the rulemaking workthat you're responsible for,
that the department isconstantly working on.
There's been so much going on.
(14:59):
I've had several guests on whohave been amazed at how much
you've taken on.
It has been quite a bit.
you've taken on things likegainful employment, you've
talked about changes to thedefinition of third party
servicer, you just mentionedincome driven repayment and a
whole host of other issues likeborrowed defense rules.
(15:21):
So, you and your team have beenbusy.
I know some of this work isstill in progress, but generally
speaking, what are you trying toaccomplish with all these
rulemaking efforts?
And and what should highereducation leaders and third
party intermediaries know aboutthe changes that you'd like to
see in the post secondaryeducation marketplace?
James (15:42):
So we've done a lot of work on cleaning up the student
loan program.
We just talked about some of itand a lot of our regulations are
around making sure if you'recheated by a college, you can
get relief.
If you have a persistently lowincome, we have help for you.
If you become disabled.
And so those are a lot of ourregulations is making sure those
(16:03):
programs actually deliver thebenefits that were intended and
that borrowers aren't.
We've also been asked by thesecretary to take a look at.
Where is all this unaffordabledebt coming from and having
spent hundreds of billions ofdollars in offering relief to
students, you know, there's adesire to make sure we are
(16:25):
consistently making sure thatstudent loans are actually
leaving people better off goingforward.
So that's something else thatwe're looking at, and we see,
you know, a lot of unaffordableloans, uh, still Come from for
profit colleges.
And we have new standards comingout now that will.
Require a minimum level of valueout of career programs,
(16:48):
including for profit programs.
across the board, we want tomake sure that when students are
taking out a loan that they areable to afford to repay that
loan, that they're getting goodvalue for that loan.
that's something we're lookingat across the board.
What are the ways to make surethat.
(17:08):
Colleges are accountable.
Students are protected.
Taxpayers are protected.
Eloy (17:12):
I know that you've spent a lot of time talking with a whole
host of different constituentgroups, and you spent some time
at the ASU GSV summit talking tostartups, private equity firms,
people in the higher educationmarketplace that come from a
variety of different angles, tothis issue In your conversations
(17:33):
with them, as you think aboutinnovation in higher education,
how are you in the departmentthinking about how you balance
innovation with consumerprotection?
James (17:44):
look, clearly there's a lot of exciting stuff happening
out there.
We live in a time oftremendously rapid change and I
think it's, there's a, there's ahuman tendency to get used to
situations very quickly.
But if you look back, even, 5 or10 years, you can see that what
we do for work is just changingso quickly.
And if anything, that's going tocontinue to change even more
(18:07):
quickly.
And at the same time, the waystudents learn the way we teach.
Is also evolving very quickly.
And, you know, what I hear fromcollege presidents is, you know,
we're not going back to 2019.
You know, students want to haveoptions and maybe live in a
dorm, take 1 class online,participate in student groups.
So there's a lot of changecoming, both in what we teach
(18:30):
and how we teach it, and we needto make that kind of change
possible now.
I think 1 of the challenges infederal policy as.
At least the way it's set upright now is, you know, there's
not a lot of room.
There's sort of all or nothing.
If you become eligible for Pellgrants, you become eligible for
student aid.
Suddenly you're hooked up tothe, the main line.
(18:53):
And we saw, you know, we sawcolleges.
A decade ago, grow from 500students to 100, 000 students in
just a couple of years, and itturned out it wasn't by
delivering great results.
When you grow that fast, youdon't have time to see what the
results are.
I think we need to find ways tosupport innovation, figure out
what works, let people try newthings, let people deliver
(19:16):
stronger outcomes, you know, inways that don't trigger concerns
about leaving students worseoff.
Or leaving taxpayers, on theback holding the bag for
Eloy (19:25):
Well, I know I and the people I've talked to really
have appreciated you being opento these conversations.
I know you and your team have atough job to continue to strike
that balance, continue to try tokeep up with all the changes.
At the same time, you've got toprotect you.
The students, and as you said,you got to protect the main
line, you've talked a lot aboutthe administration, we've talked
(19:48):
about SCOTUS, we've talked aboutsome of the work that you're
leading in terms of rulemaking.
There's another branch to thegovernment that is very much
involved in higher education,and that's Congress.
And it has been quite a longtime since Congress addressed
the act that basicallyauthorized most of what you do,
(20:10):
the higher education act, thehigher education reauthorization
act.
It's been something that many ofus have been talking about for a
long time and talking withmembers of Congress for a long
time.
Do you see anything happening onthe Hill?
Do you see any chance that theremight be a further discussion
about reauthorizing the act.
James (20:33):
Well, I hope so.
I think that 1 of the challengesof a reauthorization is that
it's comprehensive.
And so all issues are on thetable, and there are some issues
right now where, you know,people have very different views
that I think will be challengingto navigate.
You know, that said, there alsoare a lot of issues where
(20:55):
there's common ground.
I think people appreciate thevalue of workforce programs some
of which are very high quality,but aren't eligible for Pell
grants.
There's a lot of interest ininforming student decisions
called Transparency Act.
There's a lot of interest in.
Simplifying the programs.
(21:16):
Fewer loan repayment choices.
So I think that there is a lotof potential common ground.
Around the changes we'd like tosee in higher education policy,
you know, whether we get fromhere or there, it's
Eloy (21:30):
right?
Well, I think it's, that's clearto a lot of us, but there's
always hope and there's a lot,there are a lot of great
discussions happening inCongress.
A lot of great ideas that arebeing proposed.
But hopefully we can come tosome consensus and, and give the
Department of Education theauthorization it needs to keep
up with the innovation that wejust talked about,
James (21:50):
That's right.
Eloy (21:52):
As we begin to close, I know some of our listeners have
not had as much interaction withyou, your team, the Department
of Education, and it's stillsort of this mystery out there
in Washington, D.
C.
that they hear about, that theyhave to deal with every now and
then is, they see as abureaucracy.
For our listeners, how would youdescribe The Department of
(22:15):
Education and theundersecretary's office and
everything that's associatedwith that.
would you explain the role ofyou and your team?
James (22:24):
first of all, come on by.
We love to meet with the field.
We love to visit.
And I mean, that youspecifically Eloy, please come
on by.
We still have a desk for you.
Anytime you're willing to comeback and help us out.
we have a lot of people herewith long careers in the field.
People like Nassar Paydar andNoah Brown.
(22:44):
we work historically.
The federal government hasworked on the affordability side
of the access problem Pellgrants, student loans.
How do we make it easier forcall for students to enroll and
complete?
Alongside those questions becomequestions of eligibility, which
lend themselves to questionsabout sort of baseline
(23:07):
performance or what isunacceptable enough that perhaps
it shouldn't be eligible forfederal student aid.
And the 3rd, big area of work,that's really a little newer
with this administration is, youknow, how do we partner with the
people doing great work outthere to create more
opportunities for people?
think 1 of the most excitingtrends, not just in higher
(23:29):
education, but our entirecountry has been the graduation
movement, the increase in 8percentage points of the last
decade.
That's actually an incrediblenumber.
And we've gone from a couple ofboutique programs that proved it
was possible to now entirecampuses, even entire systems
moving the needle on graduationrates.
(23:51):
I think there is a lot of workfor the, community to do and
using data, using evidence totry and find those things that
work and changing people'slives.
we're trying to reorient thedepartment to be helpful to to
those efforts in the field.
And help people trying to do thehard work of creating
(24:12):
opportunity and, you know, we'llbe the, we'll be the junior
partner in that effort, but wewant to highlight good work and
fund fund efforts to build thatevidence, make data available
where it's helpful.
Eloy (24:23):
Well, listen, Mr.
Undersecretary, I reallyappreciate the work that you're
leading appreciate the effortand the sacrifice that your team
makes.
I've worked with severaldepartments of education,
Republican, Democrat.
I know how difficult it is tobring policy and politics
(24:43):
together in a town that's fullof politics.
On issues that are full ofpolitics.
So it's never easy.
Rulemaking is never easy.
Nobody likes regulation.
But I've seen you and your teamin action, and I believe that
you're truly dedicated to tryingto higher education for.
(25:04):
Learners across this country.
So thank you for being on thepodcast and thank you to you and
your team for your service.
James (25:12):
Thanks, Eloy.
I mean, it starts at the top.
We have very strong leadershipwith the president, the
secretary, and we have anincredibly deep bench.
thank you for the kind words andthank you for the work that
you're doing.
I've been a longtime admirer ofyours as well.
So appreciate the time.
Eloy (25:25):
All right.
Well, you've been listening toundersecretary James Kwal.
We've talked about the work thathe's leading at the U S
department of education, and Ireally appreciate him taking the
time to be on the podcast totalk about that work.
And to talk about what his teamhas been working on.
So, thanks everyone for joiningme here on The Rant.
(25:47):
If you enjoyed this episode,please hit the like button,
subscribe to this YouTubechannel, and leave us your
comments.
Tell us what you thought aboutthe interview.
What you think about the workthat the U.
S.
Department of Education isleading, both in higher
education and in the K 12 space.
There's lots to talk about.
And make sure that you continueto follow us on your favorite
(26:08):
podcast platform.
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and we'll see you
again soon.
I'm Eloy Ortiz Oakley and welcome back to The Rant, the
podcast where we pull back thecurtain and break down the
people, the policies, and thepolitics of our higher education
system.
In this episode, we get to breakdown the policies and the
politics of our higher educationsystem with our very special
guest.
His name is James Quall, andhe's the Undersecretary at the
(00:32):
U.
S.
Department of Education.
James has been leading the U.
S.
Department of Education sincethe beginning of the Biden
administration and theundersecretary leads all of
higher education policy, whichis quite a bit.
He and his team have beenworking hard to support the
administration's goals, but alsoto ensure that the United States
(00:54):
higher education community hasthe policies and regulations and
the support it needs.
To ensure that students get aquality education.
James has been in highereducation policy for quite a
long time, beginning with theObama administration, and even
before that working withCongress.
I'll let him talk more about hisexperiences.
(01:14):
But for now, let me welcomeJames.
James, welcome to the podcast.
James (01:19):
Thanks for having
Eloy (01:20):
Well, it's great to have you, Mr.
Secretary.
Appreciate you being on thepodcast.
There's been so much going on inthe Biden administration over
the last couple of years, andparticularly in the department
of education, you've navigated apandemic, you've seen changes in
Congress.
Student debt relief debates andof course, a few SCOTUS rulings
(01:43):
along the way that continue tochange the dynamics in the U S
department of education.
You've also dealt with predatoryfor profit tactics and a whole
slew of to propose regulatorychanges.
So before we get into all that.
I want to take some time andmake sure that our listeners get
(02:04):
to know you.
for those who have not had thepleasure of getting to know you
the way I have, tell us aboutyour higher education journey
and what led you to your careerin public service and your role
as the Undersecretary at the U.
S.
Department of Education.
James (02:19):
I was fortunate, through the sacrifices of my parents, I
went to an excellent publicschool system.
I attended two greatuniversities and, I know the
kinds of opportunities thateducation opened up for me and
those are opportunities that,you know, I think every, person
in this country should have.
(02:39):
the other, big piece of it forme was, my parents, my mom in
particular, was a lifelongfederal civil servant.
She was very involved in, townpolitics, town government, and
just had a real, idealism abouther, a real belief that
government was a way for us tocome together and solve problems
(02:59):
and make people's lives better.
that was really inspiring for meand I, after college, I, I moved
out here.
I, volunteered on presidentClinton's reelection campaign.
I got an entry level job here atthe department of education and,
I've worked a lot on highereducation.
I've worked on other issues too.
I was policy director on thepresident Obama's reelection
(03:20):
campaign worked on all domesticpolicy issues at the white
house, but have kept coming backto higher education because I
think.
It is so critical to so many ofour country's problems.
If you're worried about incomestagnation or inequality or
economic growth, you know, weneed strong colleges and
(03:40):
universities to solve thoseproblems.
Eloy (03:43):
Well, it's amazing to think that you are one of those,
young, eager staffers runningaround the department of
education, and now you're theintersecretary.
So it must be really great nowworking with all these young
staffers there at the departmentwho have that same idealism that
you came with.
James (03:59):
we do have a lot of talented young people and, I'm
so grateful for.
the people who are well along intheir careers when I started out
and were, mentors to me.
I learned a lot from them,political appointees and career
staff.
And, I think it is important asI'm, as I'm no longer entering
middle age, but in middle age tobe thinking about, you know, how
(04:20):
do we help, younger people comealong and they're going to be
ones to solve, to solve theproblems we leave behind.
Eloy (04:26):
Well, I know it's always a debate in this country, but I'm
a firm believer that governmentis so important.
To ensuring that we have, notonly a country that runs well,
but a marketplace that runswell, a marketplace of ideas and
a marketplace in highereducation.
So thank you for your service.
and thank you for that story.
Now, let's jump into somequestions about what's going on
(04:49):
at the department.
I know one issue that's fresh oneverybody's mind.
Still.
I know in a lot of circles thatI run in, this is still a topic
of discussion.
The U.
S.
Supreme Court's ruling on raceconscious admissions.
I know the department recentlygathered a number of higher
education leaders at a summit totalk about these issues.
(05:10):
So, you know, How do you see theruling affecting diversity on
college and university campuses,and what kind of insights did
you and your team gather fromthat summit at the Department of
Education?
James (05:23):
Thanks for the question.
Obviously.
although the decision, wasexpected by some, or at least
not a surprise, you know, it wasstill really difficult, to see
those words on, on the page.
At least it was for me anemotional day.
And, I think what you know, whatthe president has said, and
we've taken to heart is, youknow, Supreme Court can render a
(05:46):
decision, but it can't changewhat our country stands for.
And so, when, the secretarygathered 100 higher ed leaders,
here in August, including you,Eloy to talk about what's next,
you know, I think it was areally powerful day for people
to, remember why we're doingthis work.
(06:08):
to talk about the many, manyways we can promote greater
equity and greater diversity,that are still fully permissible
and are proven to work and tobring a new sense of urgency to
that work of racial equity.
I think it is so important that.
We don't become demoralized.
(06:30):
We don't retreat.
We don't let our young peoplelower their sights, but instead
we redouble our efforts becausethat's what this moment calls
for.
Eloy (06:41):
Well, I certainly agree with that, and coming from a
state that has been operating...
under rules under a propositionthat banned the use of race
conscious admissions since 1997.
it is, it is a challenge and itcan be a challenge.
but I think that there, thereis.
Of value in a diverse studentbody, there's value in bringing
(07:04):
together different ideas,different people of all sorts of
backgrounds.
I think a university and acollege campus are stronger for
that.
We as a country is stronger forthat.
And California certainly hasbenefited from that diversity.
So I hope that we continue topush our educational leaders to
continue to look for ways tosupport.
Learners of all backgrounds intheir communities.
So thank you for the work thatyou're leading.
(07:26):
do you see any follow up to thatsummit or any expectations that
you'd like to communicate to?
institutional leaders
James (07:33):
I of course agree with you on the value of diversity.
And so does the Supreme court,you know, the majority opinion
talked about diversity as aappropriate, even laudable goal
for educational institutions.
And, you know, diversity is acore strength of our country.
That's one of the things that.
Makes us great.
So we do need to keep workingtoward that and we've put out
(07:56):
some guidance on what's legallypermissible and admissions and
student support services and nowwe're going to put out some
additional guidance on whatmodels are out there, what the
research says.
who's doing great work in thisarea.
You know, there isn't going tobe a single, simple solution.
It's going to take hard workacross preparing more people,
recruiting them for college,affordability graduation rates,
(08:19):
changing admissions policies,all of that across the board.
We're going to have to look atall of that.
Eloy (08:23):
so the supreme court has kept you pretty busy lately and
there's another issue that cameabout recently with regard to,
the administration's policy ondebt relief.
And this has been an issuethat's been discussed quite a
bit in all corners of, ofeducation, all corners of the
(08:45):
media.
What we do about the mountingstudent debt crisis that I think
we all can agree is a crisisacross this country, the amount
of debt that many learners arecarrying, whether they completed
their higher education or not.
The way that they're strugglingto pay back those loans has been
(09:05):
a real issue But the questionnow is what do we do going
forward?
Supreme Court ruled on theadministration's use of their
authority.
Around debt forgiveness.
what do you see as the wayforward for student loan debt?
What would you like borrowersto, to know about the way
forward that you and theadministration are, Paving a
(09:28):
path toward.
James (09:29):
somewhere along the, along the way we, Okay.
Decided that loans were the bestway to pay for college that is
based on the assumption that thebenefits of college are
primarily for the student andprimarily in financial terms.
And that's really a narrow viewof what education is about in
our country and the, the stakewe all have and having more
(09:52):
people graduate from college andhaving a more educated society.
And 1 of the things we saw atthe start of this administration
was the student loan system, youknow, just wasn't working very
well for a lot of people.
We had a 1, 000, 000 people ayear defaulting on their student
loans.
We saw black borrowers.
(10:12):
Owing essentially the sameamount that they borrowed after
10 or 12 years in repayment.
We saw only 7, 000 people hadever gotten public service loan
forgiveness.
So people have planned theircareers around this program,
only to learn too late that theyhad the wrong type of loan or
they were in the wrong repaymentplan.
So there's a, there's a bigissue here both in how we help
(10:33):
people with loans, how we payfor college at the outset, and
how we make sure that whensomeone is borrowing for an
education that they can expectto graduate and get a job and
get something of value.
So there's a lot of work to doin terms of the Supreme Court
decision specifically, you know,we're working very hard to fix.
(10:56):
The categorical loan forgivenessprograms that we have public
service loan forgiveness, peoplewith persistently low incomes,
people with disabilities, andwe've identified 3.
5M people eligible for thosekinds of loan forgiveness.
We've created the mostaffordable repayment plan ever
the safe plan Which cutspayments substantially,
(11:18):
especially people who have highdebts and lower incomes.
And we have 4 million peopleenrolled in that plan.
It's only a couple of weeks old.
So we're asking everyone to helpus make sure that borrowers know
that this relief is availableand enroll in that relief, and
we're going to keep at it.
You know, we have a rulemakingprocess starting here in a
(11:40):
couple of weeks, looking at whatother types of loan forgiveness
we can offer.
And the president has asked usto reach as many.
Borrowers as possible work asquickly as, as we can.
And that's what we're
Eloy (11:52):
well, I think it it is certainly the case that you have
moved quickly even before theSCOTUS ruling Post scotus ruling
the department theadministration has forgiven
quite a bit of debt already fromLearners who were defrauded by
for profit institutions learnerswho have been left in the lurch
(12:15):
for one reason or another aswell as a public student loan
forgiveness program.
So that's quite anaccomplishment and that's a lot
of debt that you've forgiven.
how do you feel about how muchyou've accomplished so far?
James (12:30):
I'm really proud of it.
I think we have an incredibleteam here.
Rich corduroy in the group atFSA, Ben Miller and Julie Morgan
and rich Williams and manyothers here at the department.
You know, we have an incrediblystrong team and we're fixing,
some of these programs.
That have been broken fordecades and delivering real
(12:51):
relief for people.
You know, that said, I know wehave a long way to go as well.
And I hear from a lot ofborrowers who are restarting
repayment, they owe payments inOctober.
There's a lot of confusion.
There's a lot of anxiety.
People are not sure how they'regoing to make room in their
budgets for student loanpayments.
For some of them, it may take.
Some time know there's there's alot of work still to do.
Eloy (13:15):
A lot of organizations are trying to get information out to
borrowers.
I know I had Mike Pierce on thisprogram from student borrower
defense.
They're doing a lot of work toget information out about the
save program, about publicstudent loan forgiveness, and a
whole host of other loanforgiveness programs.
I know civic nation is gettingthe word out there.
If people are listening todayand they say, you know, I've got
(13:37):
to get some information to myson or daughter.
I need, I need to do somethingabout my own.
A loan debt, would you directthem to go to get information?
James (13:47):
Well, the best place to go is student aid dot gov.
We have all the, all you need toknow about our repayment plans
or our loan forgiveness programsare there and you can also find
your loan servicer and callthem.
If you have more questionsplease know we'll never have to
pay for student loan advice.
If you.
See someone out there who youthink might be a scam, please
report them to the FTC and, youknow, your listeners out there
(14:10):
who might be institutionalleaders, consider signing up or
partnering with the Save onStudent Debt campaign.
They have a lot of resourcesthere in ways that are very
useful and we found, someleaders helping their employees
enroll in public service loanforgiveness.
Helping them enroll and save,you know, really can be a
tremendous help to a lot ofpeople.
(14:32):
And, and we're grateful forwhatever work can be done to get
the word out on these benefits.
Eloy (14:37):
So let's turn the corner on some of these bigger issues
that were brought to everybody'sattention because of recent
Supreme Court rulings.
And let's talk about the day today work that the department
does.
And that's the rulemaking workthat you're responsible for,
that the department isconstantly working on.
There's been so much going on.
(14:59):
I've had several guests on whohave been amazed at how much
you've taken on.
It has been quite a bit.
you've taken on things likegainful employment, you've
talked about changes to thedefinition of third party
servicer, you just mentionedincome driven repayment and a
whole host of other issues likeborrowed defense rules.
(15:21):
So, you and your team have beenbusy.
I know some of this work isstill in progress, but generally
speaking, what are you trying toaccomplish with all these
rulemaking efforts?
And and what should highereducation leaders and third
party intermediaries know aboutthe changes that you'd like to
see in the post secondaryeducation marketplace?
James (15:42):
So we've done a lot of work on cleaning up the student
loan program.
We just talked about some of itand a lot of our regulations are
around making sure if you'recheated by a college, you can
get relief.
If you have a persistently lowincome, we have help for you.
If you become disabled.
And so those are a lot of ourregulations is making sure those
(16:03):
programs actually deliver thebenefits that were intended and
that borrowers aren't.
We've also been asked by thesecretary to take a look at.
Where is all this unaffordabledebt coming from and having
spent hundreds of billions ofdollars in offering relief to
students, you know, there's adesire to make sure we are
(16:25):
consistently making sure thatstudent loans are actually
leaving people better off goingforward.
So that's something else thatwe're looking at, and we see,
you know, a lot of unaffordableloans, uh, still Come from for
profit colleges.
And we have new standards comingout now that will.
Require a minimum level of valueout of career programs,
(16:48):
including for profit programs.
across the board, we want tomake sure that when students are
taking out a loan that they areable to afford to repay that
loan, that they're getting goodvalue for that loan.
that's something we're lookingat across the board.
What are the ways to make surethat.
(17:08):
Colleges are accountable.
Students are protected.
Taxpayers are protected.
Eloy (17:12):
I know that you've spent a lot of time talking with a whole
host of different constituentgroups, and you spent some time
at the ASU GSV summit talking tostartups, private equity firms,
people in the higher educationmarketplace that come from a
variety of different angles, tothis issue In your conversations
(17:33):
with them, as you think aboutinnovation in higher education,
how are you in the departmentthinking about how you balance
innovation with consumerprotection?
James (17:44):
look, clearly there's a lot of exciting stuff happening
out there.
We live in a time oftremendously rapid change and I
think it's, there's a, there's ahuman tendency to get used to
situations very quickly.
But if you look back, even, 5 or10 years, you can see that what
we do for work is just changingso quickly.
And if anything, that's going tocontinue to change even more
(18:07):
quickly.
And at the same time, the waystudents learn the way we teach.
Is also evolving very quickly.
And, you know, what I hear fromcollege presidents is, you know,
we're not going back to 2019.
You know, students want to haveoptions and maybe live in a
dorm, take 1 class online,participate in student groups.
So there's a lot of changecoming, both in what we teach
(18:30):
and how we teach it, and we needto make that kind of change
possible now.
I think 1 of the challenges infederal policy as.
At least the way it's set upright now is, you know, there's
not a lot of room.
There's sort of all or nothing.
If you become eligible for Pellgrants, you become eligible for
student aid.
Suddenly you're hooked up tothe, the main line.
(18:53):
And we saw, you know, we sawcolleges.
A decade ago, grow from 500students to 100, 000 students in
just a couple of years, and itturned out it wasn't by
delivering great results.
When you grow that fast, youdon't have time to see what the
results are.
I think we need to find ways tosupport innovation, figure out
what works, let people try newthings, let people deliver
(19:16):
stronger outcomes, you know, inways that don't trigger concerns
about leaving students worseoff.
Or leaving taxpayers, on theback holding the bag for
Eloy (19:25):
Well, I know I and the people I've talked to really
have appreciated you being opento these conversations.
I know you and your team have atough job to continue to strike
that balance, continue to try tokeep up with all the changes.
At the same time, you've got toprotect you.
The students, and as you said,you got to protect the main
line, you've talked a lot aboutthe administration, we've talked
(19:48):
about SCOTUS, we've talked aboutsome of the work that you're
leading in terms of rulemaking.
There's another branch to thegovernment that is very much
involved in higher education,and that's Congress.
And it has been quite a longtime since Congress addressed
the act that basicallyauthorized most of what you do,
(20:10):
the higher education act, thehigher education reauthorization
act.
It's been something that many ofus have been talking about for a
long time and talking withmembers of Congress for a long
time.
Do you see anything happening onthe Hill?
Do you see any chance that theremight be a further discussion
about reauthorizing the act.
James (20:33):
Well, I hope so.
I think that 1 of the challengesof a reauthorization is that
it's comprehensive.
And so all issues are on thetable, and there are some issues
right now where, you know,people have very different views
that I think will be challengingto navigate.
You know, that said, there alsoare a lot of issues where
(20:55):
there's common ground.
I think people appreciate thevalue of workforce programs some
of which are very high quality,but aren't eligible for Pell
grants.
There's a lot of interest ininforming student decisions
called Transparency Act.
There's a lot of interest in.
Simplifying the programs.
(21:16):
Fewer loan repayment choices.
So I think that there is a lotof potential common ground.
Around the changes we'd like tosee in higher education policy,
you know, whether we get fromhere or there, it's
Eloy (21:30):
right?
Well, I think it's, that's clearto a lot of us, but there's
always hope and there's a lot,there are a lot of great
discussions happening inCongress.
A lot of great ideas that arebeing proposed.
But hopefully we can come tosome consensus and, and give the
Department of Education theauthorization it needs to keep
up with the innovation that wejust talked about,
James (21:50):
That's right.
Eloy (21:52):
As we begin to close, I know some of our listeners have
not had as much interaction withyou, your team, the Department
of Education, and it's stillsort of this mystery out there
in Washington, D.
C.
that they hear about, that theyhave to deal with every now and
then is, they see as abureaucracy.
For our listeners, how would youdescribe The Department of
(22:15):
Education and theundersecretary's office and
everything that's associatedwith that.
would you explain the role ofyou and your team?
James (22:24):
first of all, come on by.
We love to meet with the field.
We love to visit.
And I mean, that youspecifically Eloy, please come
on by.
We still have a desk for you.
Anytime you're willing to comeback and help us out.
we have a lot of people herewith long careers in the field.
People like Nassar Paydar andNoah Brown.
(22:44):
we work historically.
The federal government hasworked on the affordability side
of the access problem Pellgrants, student loans.
How do we make it easier forcall for students to enroll and
complete?
Alongside those questions becomequestions of eligibility, which
lend themselves to questionsabout sort of baseline
(23:07):
performance or what isunacceptable enough that perhaps
it shouldn't be eligible forfederal student aid.
And the 3rd, big area of work,that's really a little newer
with this administration is, youknow, how do we partner with the
people doing great work outthere to create more
opportunities for people?
think 1 of the most excitingtrends, not just in higher
(23:29):
education, but our entirecountry has been the graduation
movement, the increase in 8percentage points of the last
decade.
That's actually an incrediblenumber.
And we've gone from a couple ofboutique programs that proved it
was possible to now entirecampuses, even entire systems
moving the needle on graduationrates.
(23:51):
I think there is a lot of workfor the, community to do and
using data, using evidence totry and find those things that
work and changing people'slives.
we're trying to reorient thedepartment to be helpful to to
those efforts in the field.
And help people trying to do thehard work of creating
(24:12):
opportunity and, you know, we'llbe the, we'll be the junior
partner in that effort, but wewant to highlight good work and
fund fund efforts to build thatevidence, make data available
where it's helpful.
Eloy (24:23):
Well, listen, Mr.
Undersecretary, I reallyappreciate the work that you're
leading appreciate the effortand the sacrifice that your team
makes.
I've worked with severaldepartments of education,
Republican, Democrat.
I know how difficult it is tobring policy and politics
(24:43):
together in a town that's fullof politics.
On issues that are full ofpolitics.
So it's never easy.
Rulemaking is never easy.
Nobody likes regulation.
But I've seen you and your teamin action, and I believe that
you're truly dedicated to tryingto higher education for.
(25:04):
Learners across this country.
So thank you for being on thepodcast and thank you to you and
your team for your service.
James (25:12):
Thanks, Eloy.
I mean, it starts at the top.
We have very strong leadershipwith the president, the
secretary, and we have anincredibly deep bench.
thank you for the kind words andthank you for the work that
you're doing.
I've been a longtime admirer ofyours as well.
So appreciate the time.
Eloy (25:25):
All right.
Well, you've been listening toundersecretary James Kwal.
We've talked about the work thathe's leading at the U S
department of education, and Ireally appreciate him taking the
time to be on the podcast totalk about that work.
And to talk about what his teamhas been working on.
So, thanks everyone for joiningme here on The Rant.
(25:47):
If you enjoyed this episode,please hit the like button,
subscribe to this YouTubechannel, and leave us your
comments.
Tell us what you thought aboutthe interview.
What you think about the workthat the U.
S.
Department of Education isleading, both in higher
education and in the K 12 space.
There's lots to talk about.
And make sure that you continueto follow us on your favorite
(26:08):
podcast platform.
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and we'll see you
again soon.
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