October 4, 2023 • 28 mins
In this episode, I talk with Maria Flynn, President & CEO at Jobs For the Future (JFF). Maria and I discuss JFF's focus on good jobs, innovation and a skills-based hiring framework. We discuss the rapidly changing workforce and the importance of centering equity in the innovations that are impacting workers.
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Eloy (00:09):
Hi, I'm Eloy Ortiz Oakley, and welcome back to the Rant,
the podcast where we pull backthe curtain and break down the
people, the policies, and thepolitics of our higher education
system.
In this episode, I get to sitdown with a friend and
colleague, Maria Flynn.
President and c e o of Jobs forthe future, otherwise known as
(00:29):
jff.
Maria is leading a very dynamicorganization and we will talk
about the pivot that theorganization recently made and
dig into what skills-basedhiring is all about.
Maria, welcome to the ran.
Maria (00:45):
Thanks so much, Eloy.
I am excited to be here.
It's
Eloy (00:48):
Yes.
Well, great to see you.
It feels like I've seen youseveral times in the last month,
so, that's always good.
let me first say thank you.
Thank you so much for being withus.
JFF is doing a lot of great workand I'd love to get into it with
you.
But before we launch into all ofthat, let me let me ask you
this.
(01:08):
for our listeners who may nothave had a chance to, to meet
you, to work with you, to get toknow the work that you're doing
at jff, tell us a little bitabout your journey your journey
on your way to jff, and whatexperiences along the way
influenced your thinking aboutthe work that you're leading
now?
Maria (01:26):
absolutely.
So it really goes all the wayback to my childhood.
So I grew up, in New Jersey toparents who grew up as farmers.
both were born during thedepression era.
Graduated high school, rightafter World War ii, 1946 and
went right into the labor force.
so my mother, didn't have anyeducation beyond high school.
(01:49):
My father I had the opportunityto really watch him, juggle
multiple jobs and earn hisdegree at the same time when I
was young.
So he got a two year degree.
Bachelor's degree, master'sdegree.
So I think watching theirexperience was a big part of it.
and then when I got a littleolder my father ended up working
(02:12):
in the workforce developmentfield at the state of New
Jersey, and my mother was anoffice secretary at our local
career and technical education.
High school or back then?
Yeah, exactly.
So that's the atmosphere inwhich I.
Grew up.
and particularly with my mother,I would go with her to her
school every morning before myschool started and, you know,
(02:34):
would just observe the kids inthere back then at the, what we
would call the voc ed highschool, their interactions, the
past that they were on.
so it's really has beensomething that I have spent my
life thinking about is how doyou help an individual get on a
path that is.
Going to really be great forthem.
(02:54):
Like how do you help them findfinance and flourish, a pathway
to a good career?
So I spent the first half of mycareer at the US Department of
Labor, which I loved.
I worked across throughdifferent presidential
administrations.
but probably, as you probablynoticed, I know you spent a
little time in the Department ofEd at the beginning of, the
Biden administration.
It's a terrific opportunity, butat times it also.
(03:17):
I think limits your ability forinnovation.
So I joined jff, little over 15years ago and became CEO here
about six years ago.
and you know, have always acrossall of those roles have been
focused on the integration ofeducation and work and a really
strong desire to make thesystems that we work within
(03:40):
here, work better.
For the people that they'redesigned to
Eloy (03:44):
Well, that's a great background and really sets the
stage for why you're the CEO ofjff.
I mean, this is really somethingthat, you've done most of your
life.
connecting.
People to jobs, good jobs iscertainly something that JFF has
always been talking about.
Tell us a little bit about thehistory of JFF and the impact
(04:07):
that you've had and and whereyour most recent strategy
refresh is leading theorganization.
Maria (04:14):
So we were founded 40 years ago.
This is our 40th anniversary byArthur White, who was a
prominent businessman inConnecticut at the time.
And Hillary Pennington, who isnow executive vice president at
the Ford Foundation, but backthen was a Student right out of
MBA school, at Yale, and the twoof them teamed up and founded
(04:37):
JFF as a nonprofit.
Really, in the moment when therewas a need for states to keep
better pace with the changingskill needs, that were coming
out of the.
Labor market.
and so we worked initially withstates like Connecticut and
Arkansas to build newapproaches.
and across all these decades,the emphasis has always been on
(05:00):
driving equitable economicadvancement for all.
So that's been the constant, Iwould say where we have shifted
over the past five years is wehave kept our.
Kind of long term focus onworking with the traditional
systems, education workforce,higher ed systems, helping them
(05:21):
to transform and innovate.
But we have added a moreintentional focus on also
working with the folks who aretrying to disrupt those systems
from the outside.
So whether those be technologyenabled startups, entrepreneurs,
you know, kind of differentmodels that are coming, Up to
speed and into the market, kindof from the outside.
(05:44):
We've been, working directlywith them through, Our team at
JFF Labs and at times we alsomake direct investments in them
through our JFF ventures, impactfund.
I really believe that we needboth, an inside game and an
outside game, so to speak, if wereally are gonna get the impact
that we wanna see.
And for us, that impact, is apretty big goal that we
(06:08):
announced just a few weeks ago,which is that in 10 years, 75
million.
Adults who face systemicbarriers to advancement will
work in quality jobs.
So that is almost a doubling ofthe number of those workers who
work in quality jobs now.
And our goal is to really havethis be a rallying point for the
(06:29):
field as a whole.
So obviously this is notsomething that Jeff's gonna do
on its own, but we want toreally help to galvanize and
inspire the field to really beworking jointly to create.
Those jobs and the pathways intothose jobs.
And for jff, I think why this isa big shift is.
Even five years ago or threeyears ago, I don't think we
(06:52):
would've said that at the end ofthe day, our work is about jobs.
Or I think we would've said,well, it's kind of about college
completion, or it's aboutcredential attainment, or, you
know, it's about pathwaydevelopment, and I think we're
really, putting our foot downand saying, no.
All of this work kind of acrossour initiatives is about
Eloy (07:13):
how, how do you define quality jobs?
Jff.
Maria (07:16):
So we have a framework, that we put out a few months
ago, and you know, at thebaseline of course is a living
wage and access to benefits, butwe also believe that quality
jobs have to provide folks withautonomy and flexibility and
things that really will helpthem thrive.
So it's, it is that wage, butit's also.
(07:38):
A lot more.
and so we're doing some work onewith the Good Jobs Challenge
grantees that were, awarded bythe US Department of Commerce
last year.
We're conducting a community ofpractice with them, helping them
along with their work.
And then we are also running aQuality Jobs Academy for the.
US Department of Labor wherewe're helping the public
(07:58):
workforce system really thinkthrough the leverage that they
have in terms of driving more,quality jobs and placements and
quality jobs in theircommunities.
So really looking to see how dothese, federal funds and
initiatives be a lever forimpact
Eloy (08:14):
Right, and I would imagine quality jobs also means the
American workforce having accessto great skills.
And I've heard you talk a lotabout skills-based hiring with
equity in particular.
What does that mean to you, andhow should employers and
education and training providersbe thinking about the value that
(08:36):
such a framework creates for theworkforce?
And what do you see as some ofthe greatest barriers in moving
toward a skill-based hiringframework?
Maria (08:44):
I think, you know, we're at a moment where we're seeing
some really exciting movementtowards a skills first
ecosystem.
So a, a labor market thatfocuses on the skills that
workers have, rather than thedegrees that they do or do not
have.
And I think that this is reallyan opportunity to drive greater
(09:07):
equity.
In the labor markets since for along time, degree requirements
have disproportionately limitedblack and Latinx, workers
advancement particularly intomiddle skill jobs.
But at the same time, you know,I think the, the counterbalance
to that is we need to be surethat this doesn't become yet
(09:28):
another form of tracking.
So I think.
Really pushing forward askills-based approach with
equity at the center is what weare interested in seeing and
helping to support.
there's great work being done byour partners at Opportunity at
Work and they're tear the paperceiling campaign that is really
(09:48):
helping to really spread theword about this opportunity and
the, the changes that can bemade on the employer side.
But as you mentioned, I thinkthere's a lot that can be done
on the.
Higher ed side as well.
So how are we preparingstudents, to thrive in a
skills-based approach, right?
(10:10):
How are we helping them thinkthrough the skills that they're
attaining in their courses?
How do we think through howindustry recognized credentials
are kind of part of the pathhere?
How do we leverage things likeprior learning assessments and
competency based, education?
At scale, like as part of thisequation.
(10:31):
So I think the opportunity isbig, but we need to be
thoughtful about it, and we needto be sure that we aren't just,
you know, kind of creating newchallenges as we go.
how is that, what, how do you
Eloy (10:45):
Well, I, I think, as you mentioned, if we can.
Break things down into skillsand really give workers credit
for everything that they've donein their, his work history.
I know myself as formermilitary, when I got out of the
army back in 88, I got no creditfor four years of serving in the
(11:07):
United States Army.
All the leadership training Ihad, all the, MOS training, I
had none of that translated and.
You have people in the workforcewho come with tremendous skills,
particularly people who comefrom low income backgrounds who
may not have had the opportunityto get into a post-secondary
institution right off the bat.
I think the more that we canfocus on skills, skill
(11:28):
attainment, find ways to show,that these individuals do come
with a set of competencies andskills, I think it, it does
create a more equitable playingfield.
on the flip side, what I hear alot, particularly from
employers, is this seems to beresonating right now because
(11:49):
there's in some places a laborshortage.
So employers are more willing toforego their previous hiring
requirements, which typicallyinvolved, some sort of degree or
credential and open up toskills.
Likewise, Some of the educationinstitutions are talking more
(12:09):
about it, but the cynics say,well, that's because we have
enrollment decline.
So you're more open to, to thinkabout things.
So do you see this as somethingthat's really taken root or do
you see this as a temporal issue
Maria (12:23):
I think it's a, it's a risk for sure.
I would say I'm.
I'm optimistic though.
So we are partnering with thebusiness round table with shrm,
for example, and their membercompanies to really dive into
skills-based approaches and havebeen really pleased with the
commitments that we have seenand the progress that's been
(12:46):
made.
So I think at J F F we'rehopeful that this is a, a trend
that's gonna continue, but, butwe'll see.
Right?
We've, we have seen, Things, youknow, kind of fall back in the
past.
obviously I also think there'sa, a need to not just look at
skills-based hiring, but alsoskills-based advancement.
(13:09):
once someone gets hired, how dowe ensure particularly with a
focus on equity that they aren'tbeing shut out of.
Additional opportunities becausethey don't have, the traditional
degree.
So I think really looking at,you know, almost like pre-hire
point of hire and post-hireapproaches to me is kind of the
(13:29):
next set of issues that we needto grapple with in this area.
but if folks want to read areally great piece, my colleague
Michael Collins, posted a pieceon Juneteenth of this year that
really lays out kind of his.
Hopes and fears aroundskills-based hiring,
particularly for black learnersand workers.
(13:49):
So I encourage folks to checkthat out cuz he really, does a
great job of outlining both thebenefits, but also the potential
Eloy (13:58):
Right.
I, I do see one hopeful sign,and that is that many states are
beginning to drop their degreerequirements there's always talk
at the federal government levelabout this.
And I assume, JFF tracks some ofthis, some of these developments
across the country.
Maria (14:15):
absolutely.
We've seen, I believe as of now,12 states that have dropped,
degree requirements at the statelevel.
the first one was Maryland,under former Governor Hogan.
The most recent, I believe wasGovernor Jenkin in, Virginia.
And, governor Dewan Ohio isrecent also.
So it's an interesting, I thinka very good example of something
that has very bipartisan.
(14:37):
Supports, we've seen bothRepublican and Democratic
governors taking this approach.
and at the federal level aswell.
It's something that I thinkfirst got some momentum under
the prior administration, butthe, something of the Biden
administration has continued topush for.
So both the federal governmentlooking at how to move away from
degree requirements in their ownhiring and then also in hiring
(15:01):
requirements for the federalcontractors.
So I, I think that both.
The federal and state piecesgive us an opportunity to really
get to some scale
Eloy (15:10):
Yes, no, definitely agree that, let me turn, our attention
to a couple of other things.
I know that you.
I've been thinking about.
So, there's a lot of talk, thesedays in amongst employers,
amongst people in the workforceabout the impact of, AI and gai
and what it will have on lowerskilled jobs and, and workers
(15:34):
that come from under resourcecommunities.
I know you and I were both atthe, the ASU G S V summit.
You couldn't turn the cornerwithout somebody talking to you
about.
Their latest g a i solution.
but how is j f thinking aboutthis impact and, and what role
do, post-secondary institutionsand their intermediaries have in
mitigating the impact to lowincome communities?
Maria (15:57):
Yeah, this is something that we are paying close
attention to, and we justlaunched our new center for
artificial intelligence and thefuture of work, so it's
something that we're, we feelthat.
We are not going to be able tomeet our North Star goal if we
can't help the education ofworkforce fields really figure
(16:17):
out how to leverage AI for good.
And I would say both in terms ofwhat jobs are being created,
what jobs are being, eliminatedor, you know, disrupted in, in
meaningful ways, but then alsohow to better utilize ai.
In things like skillsretraining, skills matching, you
(16:39):
know, kind of in differentthings in the education and
workforce space itself.
So kind of looking at it fromboth sides, of that coin, so to
speak.
I think that I, I think youactually said at our horizons
event last month on stage thatrarely do we see a big
innovation, take hold that endsup having positive effects on,
(17:04):
poor communities, I believe iswhat you said, or something to
that effect.
So we know that this issomething that we need to.
Try to get ahead of the bestthat we can to help understand
the true impact on learners andworkers, particularly workers
and learners of color.
So through the center, we'regoing to be, convening folks
(17:28):
listening and learning together.
We're gonna be testing out newapproaches.
We're gonna be looking at thepolicy angle of this, both at
the federal and state.
Level.
and we're, really being drivenby data that you know is coming
out new all the time.
Like there was a study by LioLabs that found that, of 10
(17:50):
million people who are employedin the 15 most AI exposed jobs,
that over 70% of them are women.
And over 30% of them are peopleof color.
So to your point, right, this iswhere the impact is going to be.
And I think something thatreally concerns me is that we're
(18:10):
already, in a situation whereour public systems and
institutions are alreadystruggling to keep pace with the
changes that are happeningaround them, right?
And lots of good reasons forthat, right?
From funding and, and everythingelse, but.
I think the pace at which AI isgoing to drive more changes is
(18:33):
going to make it even harder forthese systems and institutions
to keep pace and, encouragefolks to watch the 60 Minutes
episode on ai, that was just onthat featured the, CEO of Google
and a lot of other folks, and Iwatched it with my husband and
my husband said, this isterrifying.
(18:54):
So to to get that reaction outof him, I think we're really, in
for something here.
So, Yeah, we also did a surveyat jff, which showed that 88% of
the workers and learners that wesurveyed about six weeks ago
now, 88%, don't trust theiremployers to teach them about
ai.
So all the more reason for us toreally help build the capacity
(19:19):
of community colleges andcommunity-based organizations
and others to help workers andlearners kind of navigate,
what's coming down
Eloy (19:27):
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
I mean, just thinking about fromthe public release of, chat G B
T to now, it's just been aflood.
Of changes, a flood of newproducts, a flood of new apps.
so it's just, it's gonna be a,an interesting ride over the
next year or two.
So let's talk a little bit aboutyour work, in, the education
(19:49):
space.
JFF has led work to reimaginethe interface between high
school and college based on alot of what you've been speaking
about.
You published a, a well-readreport titled The Big Blur.
What are some of the maintakeaways that policymakers
should be paying attention to?
particularly in light of what wejust talked about,
Maria (20:10):
I wanna, give a big shout out to my colleague Joel Vargas
and his team who authored thisreport and have been pushing the
work.
Forward and thanks to you, ELOs.
I think you were one of thefirst, readers of that report
when we were getting ready toformally publish it.
So thank you for your input backat the beginning.
This idea really comes out ofprobably about two decades of
(20:32):
work that we have done in thedual enrollment in early college
high school space.
we've learned a lot from thoseefforts, a lot of things.
That work and approaches thatwork and great evidence that's
been developed.
But at the end of the day, likewe really feel that in order to
truly form a cohesive,transparent, quality, job driven
(20:58):
pathway for young people, thatwe need to re-look at the
traditional high school andcommunity college institutions
and.
Consider the creation of newmodels, new governance
structures that really combinegrades 11 through 14 into a more
cohesive system.
(21:18):
Because I think at the end ofthe day is, you know, from so
many different roles in yourcareer, right?
That getting community collegesand high schools to partner or
collaborate, coordinate, Ischallenging and adding in kind
of the employer and careercomponent to that, I think makes
it even more, complicated andchallenging and difficult to to
(21:39):
scale.
So we are really calling for anintegration of those sectors,
the K-12 community colleges,labor market, into something
that can really pave the way.
Calling it the big blur model ofthe blurring of those lines
across those systems.
(22:00):
So we've been working with asmall, handful of states as part
of an action lab to startactually putting some of these
ideas into practice.
and most recently, governorPolis in Colorado actually
launched a big blur task forcewhere they are really starting
to dig into, you know, howspecifically can they, Put this
into action and make it, make ita reality.
(22:23):
So I think that, this is noshort order, right?
There's a lot of issuesobviously around governance and
accountability and, and funding.
and it's really calling for apretty seismic shift in our
existing systems.
But we're excited.
We're excited that some stateshave stepped up to move in this
direction and that there's some,philanthropic funders who are
(22:43):
supporting these efforts toreally think about things in a,
in a new way.
But curious, like what's yourtake?
Like having been in thecommunity college sector for big
Eloy (22:53):
Well, I don't think it would come as a surprise to most
folks who know me.
if I say that, I think thenotion of high school being some
sort of indicator that you'reprepared for the workforce is
outdated.
I think certainly my experiencetalking about things like the
Long Beach College Promise whenI was in Long Beach or the
(23:14):
America's College CollegePromise, when.
president Obama made it clearthat a high school diploma is no
longer the default.
You know, some sort ofpost-secondary experience, a
credential is what people need.
So, I mean, we built high schoolaround this notion of what we
needed for folks to be careerready or workforce ready.
(23:35):
And of course we lose sight ofthat now for all the reasons you
just mentioned.
For all the bureaucracy we'vebuilt around the two
institutions and the governancestructures and.
if we put the learner at thecenter of this, then the answer
is obvious.
We need to restructure in muchof what you just described, But,
(23:55):
governments are slow to do thisbecause again, competing
self-interest and the onlyinterest should be in the
learner And.
You know, we need to think aboutwhat's best for the learner
going forward into the future.
We need to really rethink thisand I appreciate the work that
you've done and I hope that thisconversation continues we need
to Really think about what'sbest for the, learner and.
(24:17):
Their future in the workforce.
And so you can tell this is a
Maria (24:21):
Yeah.
I love that.
I agree.
That's right.
too.
I think we're very aligned onthat.
Eloy (24:28):
let me ask you one final question as we, begin to wind
down.
There is, and I know you knowthis, a lot of turmoil in the
workforce these days.
whether it's because we'recoming out of the pandemic and
workers are.
Rethinking the value propositionof what it means to be in a
career, what it means to have togo to work, what it means to
(24:51):
have to drive miles and milesfrom home, and commute to work.
workers are demanding a lot morethese days, and particularly
this younger generation of, ofworker, they're just.
Thinking about work verydifferently and, I don't know if
it's gonna be a good thing or abad thing, but it's definitely
(25:12):
different.
so given all this turmoil in theworkforce, what, what
opportunities do you see in, thefuture of jobs?
given everything that's, that'shappening, do you see an
opportunity there or do you justsee a lot more?
Turmoil over the next few years.
Maria (25:30):
I always tend to be optimistic, so I'm optimistic
about the opportunities that canbe created as long as we
continue to push for thoseopportunities being equitable.
Right.
So are we really, creating.
a country where we are drivingequitable economic advancement
(25:51):
for all.
I don't think we're doing thattoday, but I think that we can
get there.
I think it's gonna be hard forus to get there if our
policymakers continue to justtinker around the edges of
what's needed in terms ofreform.
so I think that I'd love to seeus Stepping up to take some
(26:13):
bigger swings at what'spossible, at what's, what needs
to happen, both at the policylevel and even in the, you know,
state and community level interms of how can we move away
from the status quo.
And I think your point aboutself-interest right, is very
true, right?
I think that's what holds,change and opportunity back in a
(26:34):
lot of cases.
So how can we kind of create thecoalitions that are needed to
get.
Beyond kind of that resistance.
Cause I think at the end of theday, a lot of the, pressures
that, you know, gen Z and theyounger generations in the
workforce are putting on us aregood ones, right.
I think as someone who's beenworking in this field for over
30 years now, It can be, youknow, hard to hear at times, but
(26:58):
I think, the importance of.
valuing your work, feelingbelonging at work, having clear,
transparent opportunities.
You know, these are importantthings and I don't think that
that's going to, to fade away inthe years to come.
I think it's just gonna getstronger.
So I think what we need to do iswe need to build those pathways
(27:20):
and help individuals find theirpath, help them figure out the
best way for them to financethose opportunities and how we
help them flourish once they'vechosen the path.
To me is where I'd love to, tosee us get to.
So forward to working with youalong the
Eloy (27:37):
Well, it sounds like we've got, plenty of work to do.
Maria (27:40):
right.
Eloy (27:41):
keep busy for quite some time and that's, the greatest
proof that this new generationis right.
Maria (27:47):
That's
Eloy (27:48):
all this work because we the problem.
All right.
Well, listen, Maria, I reallyappreciate you taking time outta
your busy schedule to join mehere on the rant, and I really
appreciate the work that you'releading at Jobs for the Future.
Maria (28:01):
Thanks so much Eli.
It
Eloy (28:02):
It's great to see you as well.
And thanks everyone for joiningme here on the Rant.
If you enjoyed this episode, hitthe like button, and.
if you're following us on theYouTube channel, subscribe so we
can continue to bring you greatcontent like we just had with
Maria Flynn.
So thanks for joining me on therant.
Follow us on your favoritepodcast platform and we'll see
(28:24):
you next time.
Take care.
Hi, I'm Eloy Ortiz Oakley, and welcome back to the Rant,
the podcast where we pull backthe curtain and break down the
people, the policies, and thepolitics of our higher education
system.
In this episode, I get to sitdown with a friend and
colleague, Maria Flynn.
President and c e o of Jobs forthe future, otherwise known as
(00:29):
jff.
Maria is leading a very dynamicorganization and we will talk
about the pivot that theorganization recently made and
dig into what skills-basedhiring is all about.
Maria, welcome to the ran.
Maria (00:45):
Thanks so much, Eloy.
I am excited to be here.
It's
Eloy (00:48):
Yes.
Well, great to see you.
It feels like I've seen youseveral times in the last month,
so, that's always good.
let me first say thank you.
Thank you so much for being withus.
JFF is doing a lot of great workand I'd love to get into it with
you.
But before we launch into all ofthat, let me let me ask you
this.
(01:08):
for our listeners who may nothave had a chance to, to meet
you, to work with you, to get toknow the work that you're doing
at jff, tell us a little bitabout your journey your journey
on your way to jff, and whatexperiences along the way
influenced your thinking aboutthe work that you're leading
now?
Maria (01:26):
absolutely.
So it really goes all the wayback to my childhood.
So I grew up, in New Jersey toparents who grew up as farmers.
both were born during thedepression era.
Graduated high school, rightafter World War ii, 1946 and
went right into the labor force.
so my mother, didn't have anyeducation beyond high school.
(01:49):
My father I had the opportunityto really watch him, juggle
multiple jobs and earn hisdegree at the same time when I
was young.
So he got a two year degree.
Bachelor's degree, master'sdegree.
So I think watching theirexperience was a big part of it.
and then when I got a littleolder my father ended up working
(02:12):
in the workforce developmentfield at the state of New
Jersey, and my mother was anoffice secretary at our local
career and technical education.
High school or back then?
Yeah, exactly.
So that's the atmosphere inwhich I.
Grew up.
and particularly with my mother,I would go with her to her
school every morning before myschool started and, you know,
(02:34):
would just observe the kids inthere back then at the, what we
would call the voc ed highschool, their interactions, the
past that they were on.
so it's really has beensomething that I have spent my
life thinking about is how doyou help an individual get on a
path that is.
Going to really be great forthem.
(02:54):
Like how do you help them findfinance and flourish, a pathway
to a good career?
So I spent the first half of mycareer at the US Department of
Labor, which I loved.
I worked across throughdifferent presidential
administrations.
but probably, as you probablynoticed, I know you spent a
little time in the Department ofEd at the beginning of, the
Biden administration.
It's a terrific opportunity, butat times it also.
(03:17):
I think limits your ability forinnovation.
So I joined jff, little over 15years ago and became CEO here
about six years ago.
and you know, have always acrossall of those roles have been
focused on the integration ofeducation and work and a really
strong desire to make thesystems that we work within
(03:40):
here, work better.
For the people that they'redesigned to
Eloy (03:44):
Well, that's a great background and really sets the
stage for why you're the CEO ofjff.
I mean, this is really somethingthat, you've done most of your
life.
connecting.
People to jobs, good jobs iscertainly something that JFF has
always been talking about.
Tell us a little bit about thehistory of JFF and the impact
(04:07):
that you've had and and whereyour most recent strategy
refresh is leading theorganization.
Maria (04:14):
So we were founded 40 years ago.
This is our 40th anniversary byArthur White, who was a
prominent businessman inConnecticut at the time.
And Hillary Pennington, who isnow executive vice president at
the Ford Foundation, but backthen was a Student right out of
MBA school, at Yale, and the twoof them teamed up and founded
(04:37):
JFF as a nonprofit.
Really, in the moment when therewas a need for states to keep
better pace with the changingskill needs, that were coming
out of the.
Labor market.
and so we worked initially withstates like Connecticut and
Arkansas to build newapproaches.
and across all these decades,the emphasis has always been on
(05:00):
driving equitable economicadvancement for all.
So that's been the constant, Iwould say where we have shifted
over the past five years is wehave kept our.
Kind of long term focus onworking with the traditional
systems, education workforce,higher ed systems, helping them
(05:21):
to transform and innovate.
But we have added a moreintentional focus on also
working with the folks who aretrying to disrupt those systems
from the outside.
So whether those be technologyenabled startups, entrepreneurs,
you know, kind of differentmodels that are coming, Up to
speed and into the market, kindof from the outside.
(05:44):
We've been, working directlywith them through, Our team at
JFF Labs and at times we alsomake direct investments in them
through our JFF ventures, impactfund.
I really believe that we needboth, an inside game and an
outside game, so to speak, if wereally are gonna get the impact
that we wanna see.
And for us, that impact, is apretty big goal that we
(06:08):
announced just a few weeks ago,which is that in 10 years, 75
million.
Adults who face systemicbarriers to advancement will
work in quality jobs.
So that is almost a doubling ofthe number of those workers who
work in quality jobs now.
And our goal is to really havethis be a rallying point for the
(06:29):
field as a whole.
So obviously this is notsomething that Jeff's gonna do
on its own, but we want toreally help to galvanize and
inspire the field to really beworking jointly to create.
Those jobs and the pathways intothose jobs.
And for jff, I think why this isa big shift is.
Even five years ago or threeyears ago, I don't think we
(06:52):
would've said that at the end ofthe day, our work is about jobs.
Or I think we would've said,well, it's kind of about college
completion, or it's aboutcredential attainment, or, you
know, it's about pathwaydevelopment, and I think we're
really, putting our foot downand saying, no.
All of this work kind of acrossour initiatives is about
Eloy (07:13):
how, how do you define quality jobs?
Jff.
Maria (07:16):
So we have a framework, that we put out a few months
ago, and you know, at thebaseline of course is a living
wage and access to benefits, butwe also believe that quality
jobs have to provide folks withautonomy and flexibility and
things that really will helpthem thrive.
So it's, it is that wage, butit's also.
(07:38):
A lot more.
and so we're doing some work onewith the Good Jobs Challenge
grantees that were, awarded bythe US Department of Commerce
last year.
We're conducting a community ofpractice with them, helping them
along with their work.
And then we are also running aQuality Jobs Academy for the.
US Department of Labor wherewe're helping the public
(07:58):
workforce system really thinkthrough the leverage that they
have in terms of driving more,quality jobs and placements and
quality jobs in theircommunities.
So really looking to see how dothese, federal funds and
initiatives be a lever forimpact
Eloy (08:14):
Right, and I would imagine quality jobs also means the
American workforce having accessto great skills.
And I've heard you talk a lotabout skills-based hiring with
equity in particular.
What does that mean to you, andhow should employers and
education and training providersbe thinking about the value that
(08:36):
such a framework creates for theworkforce?
And what do you see as some ofthe greatest barriers in moving
toward a skill-based hiringframework?
Maria (08:44):
I think, you know, we're at a moment where we're seeing
some really exciting movementtowards a skills first
ecosystem.
So a, a labor market thatfocuses on the skills that
workers have, rather than thedegrees that they do or do not
have.
And I think that this is reallyan opportunity to drive greater
(09:07):
equity.
In the labor markets since for along time, degree requirements
have disproportionately limitedblack and Latinx, workers
advancement particularly intomiddle skill jobs.
But at the same time, you know,I think the, the counterbalance
to that is we need to be surethat this doesn't become yet
(09:28):
another form of tracking.
So I think.
Really pushing forward askills-based approach with
equity at the center is what weare interested in seeing and
helping to support.
there's great work being done byour partners at Opportunity at
Work and they're tear the paperceiling campaign that is really
(09:48):
helping to really spread theword about this opportunity and
the, the changes that can bemade on the employer side.
But as you mentioned, I thinkthere's a lot that can be done
on the.
Higher ed side as well.
So how are we preparingstudents, to thrive in a
skills-based approach, right?
(10:10):
How are we helping them thinkthrough the skills that they're
attaining in their courses?
How do we think through howindustry recognized credentials
are kind of part of the pathhere?
How do we leverage things likeprior learning assessments and
competency based, education?
At scale, like as part of thisequation.
(10:31):
So I think the opportunity isbig, but we need to be
thoughtful about it, and we needto be sure that we aren't just,
you know, kind of creating newchallenges as we go.
how is that, what, how do you
Eloy (10:45):
Well, I, I think, as you mentioned, if we can.
Break things down into skillsand really give workers credit
for everything that they've donein their, his work history.
I know myself as formermilitary, when I got out of the
army back in 88, I got no creditfor four years of serving in the
(11:07):
United States Army.
All the leadership training Ihad, all the, MOS training, I
had none of that translated and.
You have people in the workforcewho come with tremendous skills,
particularly people who comefrom low income backgrounds who
may not have had the opportunityto get into a post-secondary
institution right off the bat.
I think the more that we canfocus on skills, skill
(11:28):
attainment, find ways to show,that these individuals do come
with a set of competencies andskills, I think it, it does
create a more equitable playingfield.
on the flip side, what I hear alot, particularly from
employers, is this seems to beresonating right now because
(11:49):
there's in some places a laborshortage.
So employers are more willing toforego their previous hiring
requirements, which typicallyinvolved, some sort of degree or
credential and open up toskills.
Likewise, Some of the educationinstitutions are talking more
(12:09):
about it, but the cynics say,well, that's because we have
enrollment decline.
So you're more open to, to thinkabout things.
So do you see this as somethingthat's really taken root or do
you see this as a temporal issue
Maria (12:23):
I think it's a, it's a risk for sure.
I would say I'm.
I'm optimistic though.
So we are partnering with thebusiness round table with shrm,
for example, and their membercompanies to really dive into
skills-based approaches and havebeen really pleased with the
commitments that we have seenand the progress that's been
(12:46):
made.
So I think at J F F we'rehopeful that this is a, a trend
that's gonna continue, but, butwe'll see.
Right?
We've, we have seen, Things, youknow, kind of fall back in the
past.
obviously I also think there'sa, a need to not just look at
skills-based hiring, but alsoskills-based advancement.
(13:09):
once someone gets hired, how dowe ensure particularly with a
focus on equity that they aren'tbeing shut out of.
Additional opportunities becausethey don't have, the traditional
degree.
So I think really looking at,you know, almost like pre-hire
point of hire and post-hireapproaches to me is kind of the
(13:29):
next set of issues that we needto grapple with in this area.
but if folks want to read areally great piece, my colleague
Michael Collins, posted a pieceon Juneteenth of this year that
really lays out kind of his.
Hopes and fears aroundskills-based hiring,
particularly for black learnersand workers.
(13:49):
So I encourage folks to checkthat out cuz he really, does a
great job of outlining both thebenefits, but also the potential
Eloy (13:58):
Right.
I, I do see one hopeful sign,and that is that many states are
beginning to drop their degreerequirements there's always talk
at the federal government levelabout this.
And I assume, JFF tracks some ofthis, some of these developments
across the country.
Maria (14:15):
absolutely.
We've seen, I believe as of now,12 states that have dropped,
degree requirements at the statelevel.
the first one was Maryland,under former Governor Hogan.
The most recent, I believe wasGovernor Jenkin in, Virginia.
And, governor Dewan Ohio isrecent also.
So it's an interesting, I thinka very good example of something
that has very bipartisan.
(14:37):
Supports, we've seen bothRepublican and Democratic
governors taking this approach.
and at the federal level aswell.
It's something that I thinkfirst got some momentum under
the prior administration, butthe, something of the Biden
administration has continued topush for.
So both the federal governmentlooking at how to move away from
degree requirements in their ownhiring and then also in hiring
(15:01):
requirements for the federalcontractors.
So I, I think that both.
The federal and state piecesgive us an opportunity to really
get to some scale
Eloy (15:10):
Yes, no, definitely agree that, let me turn, our attention
to a couple of other things.
I know that you.
I've been thinking about.
So, there's a lot of talk, thesedays in amongst employers,
amongst people in the workforceabout the impact of, AI and gai
and what it will have on lowerskilled jobs and, and workers
(15:34):
that come from under resourcecommunities.
I know you and I were both atthe, the ASU G S V summit.
You couldn't turn the cornerwithout somebody talking to you
about.
Their latest g a i solution.
but how is j f thinking aboutthis impact and, and what role
do, post-secondary institutionsand their intermediaries have in
mitigating the impact to lowincome communities?
Maria (15:57):
Yeah, this is something that we are paying close
attention to, and we justlaunched our new center for
artificial intelligence and thefuture of work, so it's
something that we're, we feelthat.
We are not going to be able tomeet our North Star goal if we
can't help the education ofworkforce fields really figure
(16:17):
out how to leverage AI for good.
And I would say both in terms ofwhat jobs are being created,
what jobs are being, eliminatedor, you know, disrupted in, in
meaningful ways, but then alsohow to better utilize ai.
In things like skillsretraining, skills matching, you
(16:39):
know, kind of in differentthings in the education and
workforce space itself.
So kind of looking at it fromboth sides, of that coin, so to
speak.
I think that I, I think youactually said at our horizons
event last month on stage thatrarely do we see a big
innovation, take hold that endsup having positive effects on,
(17:04):
poor communities, I believe iswhat you said, or something to
that effect.
So we know that this issomething that we need to.
Try to get ahead of the bestthat we can to help understand
the true impact on learners andworkers, particularly workers
and learners of color.
So through the center, we'regoing to be, convening folks
(17:28):
listening and learning together.
We're gonna be testing out newapproaches.
We're gonna be looking at thepolicy angle of this, both at
the federal and state.
Level.
and we're, really being drivenby data that you know is coming
out new all the time.
Like there was a study by LioLabs that found that, of 10
(17:50):
million people who are employedin the 15 most AI exposed jobs,
that over 70% of them are women.
And over 30% of them are peopleof color.
So to your point, right, this iswhere the impact is going to be.
And I think something thatreally concerns me is that we're
(18:10):
already, in a situation whereour public systems and
institutions are alreadystruggling to keep pace with the
changes that are happeningaround them, right?
And lots of good reasons forthat, right?
From funding and, and everythingelse, but.
I think the pace at which AI isgoing to drive more changes is
(18:33):
going to make it even harder forthese systems and institutions
to keep pace and, encouragefolks to watch the 60 Minutes
episode on ai, that was just onthat featured the, CEO of Google
and a lot of other folks, and Iwatched it with my husband and
my husband said, this isterrifying.
(18:54):
So to to get that reaction outof him, I think we're really, in
for something here.
So, Yeah, we also did a surveyat jff, which showed that 88% of
the workers and learners that wesurveyed about six weeks ago
now, 88%, don't trust theiremployers to teach them about
ai.
So all the more reason for us toreally help build the capacity
(19:19):
of community colleges andcommunity-based organizations
and others to help workers andlearners kind of navigate,
what's coming down
Eloy (19:27):
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
I mean, just thinking about fromthe public release of, chat G B
T to now, it's just been aflood.
Of changes, a flood of newproducts, a flood of new apps.
so it's just, it's gonna be a,an interesting ride over the
next year or two.
So let's talk a little bit aboutyour work, in, the education
(19:49):
space.
JFF has led work to reimaginethe interface between high
school and college based on alot of what you've been speaking
about.
You published a, a well-readreport titled The Big Blur.
What are some of the maintakeaways that policymakers
should be paying attention to?
particularly in light of what wejust talked about,
Maria (20:10):
I wanna, give a big shout out to my colleague Joel Vargas
and his team who authored thisreport and have been pushing the
work.
Forward and thanks to you, ELOs.
I think you were one of thefirst, readers of that report
when we were getting ready toformally publish it.
So thank you for your input backat the beginning.
This idea really comes out ofprobably about two decades of
(20:32):
work that we have done in thedual enrollment in early college
high school space.
we've learned a lot from thoseefforts, a lot of things.
That work and approaches thatwork and great evidence that's
been developed.
But at the end of the day, likewe really feel that in order to
truly form a cohesive,transparent, quality, job driven
(20:58):
pathway for young people, thatwe need to re-look at the
traditional high school andcommunity college institutions
and.
Consider the creation of newmodels, new governance
structures that really combinegrades 11 through 14 into a more
cohesive system.
(21:18):
Because I think at the end ofthe day is, you know, from so
many different roles in yourcareer, right?
That getting community collegesand high schools to partner or
collaborate, coordinate, Ischallenging and adding in kind
of the employer and careercomponent to that, I think makes
it even more, complicated andchallenging and difficult to to
(21:39):
scale.
So we are really calling for anintegration of those sectors,
the K-12 community colleges,labor market, into something
that can really pave the way.
Calling it the big blur model ofthe blurring of those lines
across those systems.
(22:00):
So we've been working with asmall, handful of states as part
of an action lab to startactually putting some of these
ideas into practice.
and most recently, governorPolis in Colorado actually
launched a big blur task forcewhere they are really starting
to dig into, you know, howspecifically can they, Put this
into action and make it, make ita reality.
(22:23):
So I think that, this is noshort order, right?
There's a lot of issuesobviously around governance and
accountability and, and funding.
and it's really calling for apretty seismic shift in our
existing systems.
But we're excited.
We're excited that some stateshave stepped up to move in this
direction and that there's some,philanthropic funders who are
(22:43):
supporting these efforts toreally think about things in a,
in a new way.
But curious, like what's yourtake?
Like having been in thecommunity college sector for big
Eloy (22:53):
Well, I don't think it would come as a surprise to most
folks who know me.
if I say that, I think thenotion of high school being some
sort of indicator that you'reprepared for the workforce is
outdated.
I think certainly my experiencetalking about things like the
Long Beach College Promise whenI was in Long Beach or the
(23:14):
America's College CollegePromise, when.
president Obama made it clearthat a high school diploma is no
longer the default.
You know, some sort ofpost-secondary experience, a
credential is what people need.
So, I mean, we built high schoolaround this notion of what we
needed for folks to be careerready or workforce ready.
(23:35):
And of course we lose sight ofthat now for all the reasons you
just mentioned.
For all the bureaucracy we'vebuilt around the two
institutions and the governancestructures and.
if we put the learner at thecenter of this, then the answer
is obvious.
We need to restructure in muchof what you just described, But,
(23:55):
governments are slow to do thisbecause again, competing
self-interest and the onlyinterest should be in the
learner And.
You know, we need to think aboutwhat's best for the learner
going forward into the future.
We need to really rethink thisand I appreciate the work that
you've done and I hope that thisconversation continues we need
to Really think about what'sbest for the, learner and.
(24:17):
Their future in the workforce.
And so you can tell this is a
Maria (24:21):
Yeah.
I love that.
I agree.
That's right.
too.
I think we're very aligned onthat.
Eloy (24:28):
let me ask you one final question as we, begin to wind
down.
There is, and I know you knowthis, a lot of turmoil in the
workforce these days.
whether it's because we'recoming out of the pandemic and
workers are.
Rethinking the value propositionof what it means to be in a
career, what it means to have togo to work, what it means to
(24:51):
have to drive miles and milesfrom home, and commute to work.
workers are demanding a lot morethese days, and particularly
this younger generation of, ofworker, they're just.
Thinking about work verydifferently and, I don't know if
it's gonna be a good thing or abad thing, but it's definitely
(25:12):
different.
so given all this turmoil in theworkforce, what, what
opportunities do you see in, thefuture of jobs?
given everything that's, that'shappening, do you see an
opportunity there or do you justsee a lot more?
Turmoil over the next few years.
Maria (25:30):
I always tend to be optimistic, so I'm optimistic
about the opportunities that canbe created as long as we
continue to push for thoseopportunities being equitable.
Right.
So are we really, creating.
a country where we are drivingequitable economic advancement
(25:51):
for all.
I don't think we're doing thattoday, but I think that we can
get there.
I think it's gonna be hard forus to get there if our
policymakers continue to justtinker around the edges of
what's needed in terms ofreform.
so I think that I'd love to seeus Stepping up to take some
(26:13):
bigger swings at what'spossible, at what's, what needs
to happen, both at the policylevel and even in the, you know,
state and community level interms of how can we move away
from the status quo.
And I think your point aboutself-interest right, is very
true, right?
I think that's what holds,change and opportunity back in a
(26:34):
lot of cases.
So how can we kind of create thecoalitions that are needed to
get.
Beyond kind of that resistance.
Cause I think at the end of theday, a lot of the, pressures
that, you know, gen Z and theyounger generations in the
workforce are putting on us aregood ones, right.
I think as someone who's beenworking in this field for over
30 years now, It can be, youknow, hard to hear at times, but
(26:58):
I think, the importance of.
valuing your work, feelingbelonging at work, having clear,
transparent opportunities.
You know, these are importantthings and I don't think that
that's going to, to fade away inthe years to come.
I think it's just gonna getstronger.
So I think what we need to do iswe need to build those pathways
(27:20):
and help individuals find theirpath, help them figure out the
best way for them to financethose opportunities and how we
help them flourish once they'vechosen the path.
To me is where I'd love to, tosee us get to.
So forward to working with youalong the
Eloy (27:37):
Well, it sounds like we've got, plenty of work to do.
Maria (27:40):
right.
Eloy (27:41):
keep busy for quite some time and that's, the greatest
proof that this new generationis right.
Maria (27:47):
That's
Eloy (27:48):
all this work because we the problem.
All right.
Well, listen, Maria, I reallyappreciate you taking time outta
your busy schedule to join mehere on the rant, and I really
appreciate the work that you'releading at Jobs for the Future.
Maria (28:01):
Thanks so much Eli.
It
Eloy (28:02):
It's great to see you as well.
And thanks everyone for joiningme here on the Rant.
If you enjoyed this episode, hitthe like button, and.
if you're following us on theYouTube channel, subscribe so we
can continue to bring you greatcontent like we just had with
Maria Flynn.
So thanks for joining me on therant.
Follow us on your favoritepodcast platform and we'll see
(28:24):
you next time.
Take care.
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