June 13, 2023 • 28 mins
This is the second in a series of episodes where I interview interesting innovators that I ran into at the recent ASU + GSV Summit. In this episode I talk with Pierre Dubuc, Co-Founder and CEO of OpenClassrooms. Pierre shares his experiences in higher education, his personal journey from France to the US and he highlights the work happening at OpenClassrooms, and online post-secondary education and apprenticeship platform.
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Episode Transcript
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Eloy (00:07):
Hi, I'm Eloy Ortiz Oakley, and welcome back to the Rant,
the podcast where we pull backthe curtain and break down the
people, the policies, and thepolitics of our higher education
system.
In this episode, I'm lookingback at my experiences at A S U
G S V.
The conference held in San Diegorecently.
In the following episodes, Iwill be talking with some
(00:30):
interesting innovators inpost-secondary education who are
working to bring qualitylearning to more people of
diverse backgrounds.
Today I'm talking with PierreDubuque, c e o, and co-founder
of Open Classrooms, on onlineeducation platform.
Focus on apprenticeships.
(00:51):
Before I welcome Pierre, I needto say that I am currently an
advisor at Open Classrooms, butPierre is not paying me to say
anything that I'm about to say.
So now that that's out of theway, Pierre, welcome to the
rent.
Pierre (01:06):
Thank you Eli.
Eloy (01:07):
Well, it's great to have you.
It was good to see you at A S UG S V.
So Pierre, for.
For folks who have not met youor have not heard about what
you're doing in the us you,you're French from France.
You've got your start there.
Tell our listeners about yourbackground, your education, your
professional journey, and whatled you to launch an education
(01:31):
startup company in France, andthen bring it here to the us.
Pierre (01:34):
Yeah, good question.
So, I started open classrooms awhile ago now.
I'm 34 right now.
I'm currently based in New York.
But I started the bus, thisbusiness in France, with my
friend and co-founder in theSoutha, France when we were
actually teenagers.
At the age of 11 and 13, westarted trading online courses
Eloy (01:56):
Did you say 11 and 13?
Pierre (01:58):
11 Indeed.
Yes.
middle school, and met Sure.
Back then started, writing liketrading courses, courses you
wish he, he had found back then.
That was in 1999, so more than20 years ago, and traded first
course on.
Web development to, teach folkshtml, creating pretty simple
(02:21):
websites.
But back then, in 1999, theywere not, you know, all of the
courses you can find online andYouTube or anything like that.
So,
Eloy (02:29):
that's all right, because when I was 11 there was no
internet, so it's come a longway.
Pierre (02:34):
That's, that is, that is true.
But yeah, it, it was thebeginning, right?
So, he, he created one of thevery first courses to learn
coding in French.
and I started joining thatadventure, this journey I
created.
The website itself.
So it was creating content,creating the website, and we, we
created together this learningcommunity for free.
(02:57):
As a pure hobby.
It was not a business at all.
Obviously we're very young andwe had no idea what a business
actually.
Ma'am.
But we started sharing that forfree.
really the courses we, which wehad at school basically.
And years after years it becameactually the reference platform
to learn coding in Frenchspeaking countries.
So after five, 10 years doingthat as a pure hobby, we did
(03:20):
that in middle school, in highschool, in college.
As a, you would say anot-for-profit organization or
It was not even an organization.
It was just us spending our freetime on that.
but we figured when we were incollege to study engineering, to
take communications, into our,you know, master's degree.
I noticed that actually some ofmy colleagues, um, peer students
(03:44):
were actually using my ownwebsite, um, in instead of like
going to lectures, cuz theythought it, it was more
informative, it was moreaccessible and so on, just like
better.
and at the end of our studies wedecided basically to make, make
it our full-time job and createit.
Open classrooms.
So that was 10 years ago.
In 2013, we created openclassrooms as a public benefit
(04:08):
corporation, a mission drivencompany.
And the mission of openclassrooms is to make education
accessible and especiallyeducation leading to jobs.
So it's really at the crossroadof higher education.
Vocational training,apprenticeship, workforce
development.
The outcome first in terms ofthe social impact we're having
as the number of students weplace in the workforce, that
(04:29):
could be first, first job thatcould be for promotions, our
increase, uh, switching careersand so on and so forth.
And then back then, we quicklybecame actually a state endorse
college with degree awardingpowers.
And it was very, very new or thevery first ones in, in France to
provide.
Online degrees.
and we got degree, accreditationand we started, offering
(04:52):
associate bachelors master'sdegrees leading to new jobs in
tech and it, such as, you know,coding and data and AI and cyber
security and so on.
And then, yeah, it got startedlike this.
Eloy (05:05):
So when you were growing up in France and, and creating
these online courses in, in highschool and beyond, Were you
motivated by any other companiesthat were doing something
similar?
I the mid two thousands, youknow, we had Udacity popping up,
we had, edX, Coursera startingto get moving in the MOOC space.
(05:26):
Uh, were you paying attention tothose companies or were you just
doing your own thing and, andgrowing it on your own?
Pierre (05:32):
I think we were doing, our own thing until very late.
And then when that MOK wavereally started and we saw, you
know, ko, Udacity, atx and soon, popping up.
Like interesting, like onlinecourses for free with massive
numbers of users.
Like that sounds familiar to us.
(05:54):
and we thought actually untilthen we thought we were really
doing something fairly, likeunique in a good and in a bad
way.
You know, when you are the onlyone offering a service.
Maybe that you're very uniqueand super innovative, or maybe
there's no market and thenyou're on, on your own, right.
(06:14):
It definitely felt like, oh,we're actually exactly on that
vertical, if you will, and it isstarting.
so at this time, exactly at thistime, we decided, okay, let's,
let's,
Eloy (06:27):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (06:28):
Let's do it full-time.
Let's raise some found, let's gobig ma, make it our full-time
job and pivot towards this edtech vertical.
That was really start back then.
So we didn't really have likethe benefit of having like big
brands behind us, like, youknow, ideal league universities
(06:50):
or anything like that.
But we thought, yeah, let, let,let, let's try it out.
You know, we're, we're alreadylike fairly the, I would say in
Europe, Straight it up.
So we, we started at this timeraising funds and like building
open classrooms, as, as you knowit
Eloy (07:05):
Wow.
That's a, that's a great story.
So I, I know as I've spoken tofounders over the years, they're
very, Sensitive in particularabout the name that they gave
their startup.
What, what is it about the nameopen classrooms that, uh, that
led you to use that as the nameof your new company?
Pierre (07:25):
There is a good story behind it because the name of
the website we started back in1999 was not open classrooms, it
was in French ci, which means,like the website for, uh,
newbies, basically like where,where you learn from scratch,
from zero.
and at this time, so itobviously in France, and when we
(07:47):
decided to move into like theMOK space and degrees and
becoming a college and so on, atthis very time, we wanted to
become more global, but also wewere perceived as a community to
learn
Eloy (08:02):
Uhhuh.
Pierre (08:03):
and tech.
so some of our community thoughtthat we were an education.
Platform and some others thoughtwe were an IT platform,
interestingly.
And, and both were true in away.
so we wanted to, to make clearthat our intents was education.
it is a content and maybe wewould get into other fields of
(08:27):
study in the future.
our true mission was aroundeducation, so we wanted to.
Global and clearly on education.
We had also this mindset of opensource.
we published everything underthe same license as Wikipedia
creative comments, so it's veryopen.
So, open something in educationand, and then we came up with,
(08:50):
with this name, open Classrooms.
Eloy (08:53):
Well, I think it's stuck.
Let's talk about openclassrooms.
H how do you see your companychanging the way.
Learners and employers, uh,think about, things like
apprenticeships, because I knowyour model, some of your success
has been focused on this notionof creating, pathways to jobs.
(09:14):
you mentioned it, which areperfect for the apprenticeship
model.
So how, how do you see whatyou're doing changing the way
that learners and employersthink about apprenticeships?
Pierre (09:26):
so I'd say back to the mission of women classrooms
making education accessibleoffers, in a way, it means
several things.
It means accessible anywhere,anytime, all ages, in a very
flexible way, in terms of yourscale accessible to individuals
with disabilities.
Obviously financiallyaccessible.
(09:46):
So it should be cheap or free orfunded.
you shouldn't be in debt, to getaccess to quality education.
But education should also be away to access, really impactful
socioeconomic mobility.
So, get a job, get a littlesalary inquiries, switch
carriers, create your ownventure.
So how do you find a way to do.
(10:08):
All of that at the same time.
It's not, it's not easy.
At the, you know, on the marketthere is also huge talent gaps,
skills, gaps on pros that manyneeds.
They don't fulfill them in areally efficient way.
so we wanted to find a way toprovide quality education at
scale in an accessible wayleading to good carriers.
(10:29):
obviously at some point westarted getting into, the
apprenticeship space, which is,a walk and study program
eventually.
So it's really at the crossroadof, you know, college education,
higher education, learningtraining.
And walking because you areeffectively already walking.
(10:50):
You have a work contract, youare employed by an employer.
You are at on the job.
for example, like four days aweek on the job training, one
day a week, you are gonna betrained, biased by open
classrooms with a mentor.
so it's a learn and earn, modelin which you are being paid
while.
(11:11):
You get, training.
So it's really wonderful becausen not only, you don't have to
pay for any nutrition fees,never.
You're not in debt.
and you get paid, so you havewages, you know, fors.
On tech jobs, it would betypically about$25 an hour on
getting, you know, in increasedover time as you gain more
(11:33):
skills and after, you know, six,12 months, you could get to 40,
$50 an hour, which is prettydecent wage when you are, when
you are still learning, in, in acollege, uh, degree program.
So, our intent first was to saya, the ideal world would be that
you are employed from day one.
(11:55):
Your training costs are coveredby the employer.
You learn on the job and it isrecognized, academically.
So you, you get courage creditsand at the end you could have
actually a courage degree thisway.
So it's what we would calldegree apprenticeship.
So in a way, you would haveaccess to courage, education for
free, being paid while you do
Eloy (12:17):
That sounds like a great deal.
Now that you've been operatingin the US for some time, you're
living in New York now, you'rebecoming quite, uh, the
American, what do you see as themain difference in the way that.
People think aboutapprenticeships and this job
training and education aspect ofwhat you do, what's different in
(12:37):
France versus what you havefound here in the us?
Pierre (12:42):
I think there are many similarities actually, and
obviously differences, but thesimilarities we've seen in
Europe, a few years ago.
are, are the same.
and that means, for example,there is, there is confusion
between a apprenticeship andinternship or co-ops, and it's,
so, it's not very clear what aapprenticeship means to
(13:04):
employers, to families, tostudents.
It there is still, like, it'sstill doubling up.
I would say.
It's still, it still requiressome level of.
explaining what a apprenticeshipmeans.
So that's one., behind aapprenticeship, there is a
preconception that aapprenticeship is only for lower
levels of qualification.
(13:26):
Trade jobs, blue collar jobs.
So a apprenticeship cannot makesense for, wanna become a
plumber or a truck driver orcarpenter.
but I want to have a couragedegree.
I wanna be an engineer.
I want to be this and that.
So apprenticeship is really notfor me.
and we have this sameconception, I would say in
Europe, cuz our apprenticeship,the way a apprenticeship was
(13:47):
initially created centuries ago.
It came from trade jobs.
So it makes sense that theperception is around the trade
jobs and blue collar, jobs thatchanged over time.
and I think we've seen more andmore apprenticeship programs, on
higher level, levels ofqualifications and, and white
collar jobs or, or new collarjobs.
And then, The blend betweenapprenticeship and courage
(14:09):
degree programs.
So in a way, for example, inFrance, and that came fairly
recently, uh, through publicpolicy changes in 2018.
Then the covid wave also, reallyhave accelerate the access to,
apprenticeship the governmentalso, but down some stimulus
package to incentivize employersto hire apprentices.
(14:31):
And in a nutshell, in in aboutfive years, we went from.
400,000 apprentices in thecountry to nearly 1 million.
So more than doubling in fiveyears in the overall processes.
in comparison in, in the statesright now we have less than half
that number of apprentices, butthe country is five times
(14:51):
bigger, so per, per capita isabout 10 times more.
It's as if there were 5 millionapproaches in the states right
now.
We have only a 10th of that.
So huge increase.
you have now about 20, 25% of anage group that is in a
partnership.
At a given time in France, it'shuge.
(15:13):
So it becoming reallymainstream.
and what became mainstream inthe perception is that you can
access the best education, thebest colleges through a
apprenticeship.
So you can graduate from, let'ssay Harvard or m i t
Eloy (15:30):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (15:31):
So they completely changed the perception both by
employers and also by familiesand parents, right?
Because.
If you can get an I Leaguedegree through a apprenticeship,
then a apprenticeship is pretty,pretty good and it's debt free
and you get paid and so on andso forth.
so they really moved the needleand we're starting seeing that
journey, in the states, but we,we still probably have a few
(15:54):
years ahead of us, to, make thatchange completely.
Eloy (15:57):
Well, you're young so you have plenty of time.
Pierre (16:00):
Exactly in energy.
Eloy (16:02):
Now that you've been, operating in the US for, some
time, what kind of, partners doyou have here in the us?
What, what are your typicalpartners
Pierre (16:11):
So first of all, in the state, we, we focus on, on
Eloy (16:15):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (16:16):
With the US Department of Labor to have our
apprenticeship programsrecognized.
So we call that registered.
so it leads to a U S D Lcertificate of completion for
our practices.
Employers have also access to.
First sale of approval in some,in some way, but also funding.
so we got, uh, you know, we'reeastern in several states.
(16:37):
and then, obviously aapprenticeship is really driven
by employers demand, so you needto start from the employer side.
So we started walking withcompanies like Merck or Nestle,
on their.
Business needs in terms oftalent,
Eloy (16:52):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (16:52):
jobs.
They struggle to hire on certainjobs like data, for example,
and, and they have businessesin, in, in, in that field, in
that skillset, but also achallenge in terms of diversity,
and creating more diverse talentpipelines.
So, we bring them in a way, asolution to.
(17:13):
Solve those business challengesand the skills gap
Eloy (17:18):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (17:18):
and at the same time, this diversity, gap, they,
they're also face.
So we started walking withemployers, and then down the
road, obviously we startedoperating apprenticeship
programs.
So finding a process, trainingthem on the job.
Fulfilling business needs and soon.
And then more recently westarted also collaborating with
(17:39):
universities, colleges andcommunity colleges, to help them
provide, pathways, careerpathways to their graduates, and
operate more and more, uh,apprenticeship programs, free
apprenticeship and thepartnership programs locally in
the local community, leveragingtheir.
And graduates to, again, fulfilllocal employers needs.
(18:01):
so it's been more recent wherewe started also working with,
universities around credittransfer agreements.
For example, UMass would, youknow, credits to our students
and, and graduates or processes.
so really, trying to buildpartnerships with the ecosystem
around higher education.
and workforce development.
(18:21):
So that means employers,universities, colleges,
community colleges, workforcedevelopment boards as well
states themselves.
So it's a complex model becauseyou need to walk with many
different entities.
Eloy (18:33):
Do you find the regulatory environment, better or worse,
here in the US versus, in theeu?
Pierre (18:40):
I would say there is a lot of area of improvements.
Eloy (18:46):
Well, it's nice to see that you have a political bone
in you, so that was a goodpolitical answer to the
question.
Pierre (18:54):
Yeah.
No, I, I, I, I you know thatfield, better than anybody, uh,
and, and clearly on a highereducation, there are many
challenges when, when it comesto higher education in states
student debt, student outcomesto placement rates, the cost of
education.
all of those challenges need,absolutely need to be addressed.
(19:15):
we, we we're seeing a decline instudent enrollments in higher
education for, for just a fewyears.
And, and that decline willcontinue to probably accelerate
cuz no, nobody can afford,college education, uh, anymore
versus, you know, the ROI and,and, and the upside on your
career.
So.
Huge challenge there.
And I think, uh, a part of that,you know, lies in, in public
(19:39):
policy, clearly in accreditationTitle four and all of that on a
apprenticeship.
I'd say the apprenticeshipmarket is still fairly, skewed
towards trade jobs, blue collarworkers.
It's not growing quickly, eventhough there is a lot of
interest.
There's a lot of likeconversations and public debates
(20:00):
around a partnership, but thenumber of references in the
country is not growing.
it's kind of flat-ish.
it might grow.
and many institutions such asopen classrooms are trying to.
Push on that agenda.
some governors also are pushingreally harm on that, like in
California.
but we're still, we're, we'renot there yet.
(20:22):
the, the level of regulationand, and, public is still fairly
Eloy (20:28):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (20:28):
It's still fairly.
Scattered and it origin genericin the country, meaning that
apprenticeship providers arevery local and usually not
for-profit organization.
So it in a way, it, it's notvery scalable.
So you need to bringapprenticeship providers into
what we call intermediary.
(20:50):
So really making, matchesbetween employers and, and, and
the processes.
you need to bring scalablemodels and you need a business
model to, to do that.
So some sort of funding thatcould come from employers
privately funded, could comefrom states or workforce
development bots in, in a way,or mix of all of the above.
(21:11):
But it needs to be scalable andeverywhere in Europe where we've
seen a really fast growth in thenumber of processes.
Like in France or the UK aswell, in Germany and
Switzerland, we've seen achallenging public policy with a
scalable business model.
Whenever we'll start seeing thatin the states.
(21:34):
I do think we're starting a hugegrowth in the number of
apprentices that might happen inthe f in the next few years,
right now in California, wherethey started to introduce a more
scalable business model forapprenticeship.
So very curious to see, howthat's gonna unfold.
Eloy (21:52):
I think the, key here is.
The employers, and if they'redriving this, change, if they're
driving the demand forapprenticeships, I think you'll
start to see public policychange.
I know that's, that's beenhappening here in California.
The conversations aroundapprenticeships have picked up
significantly in the last fiveyears and post covid.
(22:14):
I think that the kinds of areasof employment that are in great
demand, whether that'shealthcare, farm tech, uh, it.
Teaching, they're all very wellaligned with the apprenticeship
model.
So I'm, I'm hopeful that thispicks up the pace here in the
next few years.
Let me, ask you a couple lastquestions before we close.
(22:35):
So, as a founder, operating herein the US now, the economic
environment has been, you know,relatively tough.
how have you been navigatingthis difficult economic
environment, especially with thebackdrop of the near collapse of
Silicon Valley Bank, theshutdown of several regional
banks?
(22:56):
It seems like every week we hearmore news about the challenges
in the banking industry.
Is that constraining you or, doyou feel confident that you're
gonna be able to continue toaccess the capital you need to
grow?
Pierre (23:08):
Those are very good questions and I, I think also,
generally speaking, the EdTechindustry has been hit pretty
badly in, you know, in the past12 months.
And, and still, you know, wewe're, we're seeing, you know,
last week, uh, Chegg announcedthat G P T is starting, you
know, to.
Have a ne negative impact on, ontheir business, their share drop
(23:29):
by 50%.
And, and there are other, techplayers, like Pearson, you know,
also took a hit.
So, the tech environment also,you know, it's tough.
and evaluations went down.
The tech industry also, uh,obviously took, took a hit like
you explained.
So, it, it is a, it is a roughtime, uh, German speaking in the
(23:51):
industry.
It was also kind of crazy goodin 2020 and 2021.
Probably too good.
And, and there, there isobviously kind, uh, swing back
and that we're, we'reexperiencing right now.
I, I see it obviously as anopportunity because, we've seen
also many, many morecompetitors, many more players,
that's gonna clean up themarket, quite frankly.
(24:12):
So, now, how can we navigatethat?
Concretely I think it'schallenging because our model is
really skewed towards employers.
B2B clients and as you said, B2Bclients right now.
Also, you know, more cautious,some of them in taking Australia
laying off.
at the very least, they're beingreally more cautious about,
(24:34):
recruitments.
So obviously a partnership in aways recruitments.
So, the number of recruitments.
Is that definitely decreasing?
So what we try to be agile andadapt our model, when there is
less requirement, it's likelythat you need, you still need
new skills, to adapt to newchallenges that your industry is
facing.
(24:54):
So that means you're gonnaprobably invest more in finding
those skills internally.
Eloy (24:58):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (24:59):
so meaning upscaling and rescaling existing employees.
So we're seeing that.
move, uh, in the past year fromwhat I would call external
apprenticeship, meaning buildinga new talent pipeline to hire a
new talent.
towards more like internalapprenticeship, meaning learning
a new job on the job, and, and,and providing that to existing
(25:21):
employees first.
We have a product in both, in,in Bo Figman, but it's, it's
obviously a challenge in, theway you, you sell and who you
sell to.
I think also large organizationshave been.
He, but SMBs are still likefairly dynamic actually.
So convincing approach,convincing SMBs to hire our
process is definitely, on thetop of our agenda.
(25:44):
It's not easy.
But I think if we can startseeing SMB, smaller businesses
hire more and more processes,like it is the case again in,
you know, Germany, Switzerland,uk, France, and Europe, that
will scale, the number res inthe countries.
So we're definitely pushing now.
Eloy (26:00):
Well, you've survived since age 11, so I think you're,
you'll be just fine.
Pierre (26:04):
It's
Eloy (26:05):
fine.
Well, let me ask you one finalquestion.
Pierre, you were recently at A SU G S V, that's where we bumped
into each other.
I know you've been attending,the last, few years.
Did you enjoy this year's A S UG S V?
And what did you get out of theexperience?
Pierre (26:21):
I enjoyed it.
I was very disappointed.
It was raining and cold thisyear.
what is going on there?
Some Diego raining in in April,but, but yeah, obviously enjoyed
it.
It's been, It's always a greatexperience.
You know, you, you, you seeeverybody in the industry pretty
much in, in, in three days.
lots of conversations around AIchat, G P T I mean, it was, on,
(26:45):
on everybody's, panel and, topof mind pretty much anywhere.
I, I saw also a lot of, I wouldsay a lot of organizations.
Kind of plateauing and kind ofrefocusing energies, resources
and trying to reassess, okay,what is it that we need, we need
to do.
So, many organizations, Iactually in the past few years
(27:07):
were very bullish.
I think that really changed,like we, we talked about
earlier.
so I didn't see a lot of,massive progress actually
between.
This year and last year'sedition, most organizations were
almost around the same stage,which is quite interesting.
But I've seen also, you know,reading between the lines, also
(27:30):
many organizations reallystruggling just to, get funding
and, and navigating throughthose tough times.
So it's gonna be interesting, tosee in a year time, mu will
survive that, tougherenvironment.
Which type of decisions, didthey, did they take, uh, good
and bad and learn from, from,those, those mistakes and, and,
(27:52):
and moves they made?
Eloy (27:53):
Well, Pierre, I really appreciate you taking time out
of your busy day to join us hereon the Rant.
really love what you're doing,love your story.
So really wish you the best ofluck and thank you for being,
here on the rent.
Pierre (28:07):
Thank you.
Eloy (28:07):
All right.
Thanks everyone for joining meon the rant.
If you enjoyed this episode, hitthe like button and leave me
your comments to hear moreepisodes.
Subscribe to this YouTubechannel or find us on your
favorite podcast platform.
Take care everybody, and we'llbe back with you soon
Hi, I'm Eloy Ortiz Oakley, and welcome back to the Rant,
the podcast where we pull backthe curtain and break down the
people, the policies, and thepolitics of our higher education
system.
In this episode, I'm lookingback at my experiences at A S U
G S V.
The conference held in San Diegorecently.
In the following episodes, Iwill be talking with some
(00:30):
interesting innovators inpost-secondary education who are
working to bring qualitylearning to more people of
diverse backgrounds.
Today I'm talking with PierreDubuque, c e o, and co-founder
of Open Classrooms, on onlineeducation platform.
Focus on apprenticeships.
(00:51):
Before I welcome Pierre, I needto say that I am currently an
advisor at Open Classrooms, butPierre is not paying me to say
anything that I'm about to say.
So now that that's out of theway, Pierre, welcome to the
rent.
Pierre (01:06):
Thank you Eli.
Eloy (01:07):
Well, it's great to have you.
It was good to see you at A S UG S V.
So Pierre, for.
For folks who have not met youor have not heard about what
you're doing in the us you,you're French from France.
You've got your start there.
Tell our listeners about yourbackground, your education, your
professional journey, and whatled you to launch an education
(01:31):
startup company in France, andthen bring it here to the us.
Pierre (01:34):
Yeah, good question.
So, I started open classrooms awhile ago now.
I'm 34 right now.
I'm currently based in New York.
But I started the bus, thisbusiness in France, with my
friend and co-founder in theSoutha, France when we were
actually teenagers.
At the age of 11 and 13, westarted trading online courses
Eloy (01:56):
Did you say 11 and 13?
Pierre (01:58):
11 Indeed.
Yes.
middle school, and met Sure.
Back then started, writing liketrading courses, courses you
wish he, he had found back then.
That was in 1999, so more than20 years ago, and traded first
course on.
Web development to, teach folkshtml, creating pretty simple
(02:21):
websites.
But back then, in 1999, theywere not, you know, all of the
courses you can find online andYouTube or anything like that.
So,
Eloy (02:29):
that's all right, because when I was 11 there was no
internet, so it's come a longway.
Pierre (02:34):
That's, that is, that is true.
But yeah, it, it was thebeginning, right?
So, he, he created one of thevery first courses to learn
coding in French.
and I started joining thatadventure, this journey I
created.
The website itself.
So it was creating content,creating the website, and we, we
created together this learningcommunity for free.
(02:57):
As a pure hobby.
It was not a business at all.
Obviously we're very young andwe had no idea what a business
actually.
Ma'am.
But we started sharing that forfree.
really the courses we, which wehad at school basically.
And years after years it becameactually the reference platform
to learn coding in Frenchspeaking countries.
So after five, 10 years doingthat as a pure hobby, we did
(03:20):
that in middle school, in highschool, in college.
As a, you would say anot-for-profit organization or
It was not even an organization.
It was just us spending our freetime on that.
but we figured when we were incollege to study engineering, to
take communications, into our,you know, master's degree.
I noticed that actually some ofmy colleagues, um, peer students
(03:44):
were actually using my ownwebsite, um, in instead of like
going to lectures, cuz theythought it, it was more
informative, it was moreaccessible and so on, just like
better.
and at the end of our studies wedecided basically to make, make
it our full-time job and createit.
Open classrooms.
So that was 10 years ago.
In 2013, we created openclassrooms as a public benefit
(04:08):
corporation, a mission drivencompany.
And the mission of openclassrooms is to make education
accessible and especiallyeducation leading to jobs.
So it's really at the crossroadof higher education.
Vocational training,apprenticeship, workforce
development.
The outcome first in terms ofthe social impact we're having
as the number of students weplace in the workforce, that
(04:29):
could be first, first job thatcould be for promotions, our
increase, uh, switching careersand so on and so forth.
And then back then, we quicklybecame actually a state endorse
college with degree awardingpowers.
And it was very, very new or thevery first ones in, in France to
provide.
Online degrees.
and we got degree, accreditationand we started, offering
(04:52):
associate bachelors master'sdegrees leading to new jobs in
tech and it, such as, you know,coding and data and AI and cyber
security and so on.
And then, yeah, it got startedlike this.
Eloy (05:05):
So when you were growing up in France and, and creating
these online courses in, in highschool and beyond, Were you
motivated by any other companiesthat were doing something
similar?
I the mid two thousands, youknow, we had Udacity popping up,
we had, edX, Coursera startingto get moving in the MOOC space.
(05:26):
Uh, were you paying attention tothose companies or were you just
doing your own thing and, andgrowing it on your own?
Pierre (05:32):
I think we were doing, our own thing until very late.
And then when that MOK wavereally started and we saw, you
know, ko, Udacity, atx and soon, popping up.
Like interesting, like onlinecourses for free with massive
numbers of users.
Like that sounds familiar to us.
(05:54):
and we thought actually untilthen we thought we were really
doing something fairly, likeunique in a good and in a bad
way.
You know, when you are the onlyone offering a service.
Maybe that you're very uniqueand super innovative, or maybe
there's no market and thenyou're on, on your own, right.
(06:14):
It definitely felt like, oh,we're actually exactly on that
vertical, if you will, and it isstarting.
so at this time, exactly at thistime, we decided, okay, let's,
let's,
Eloy (06:27):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (06:28):
Let's do it full-time.
Let's raise some found, let's gobig ma, make it our full-time
job and pivot towards this edtech vertical.
That was really start back then.
So we didn't really have likethe benefit of having like big
brands behind us, like, youknow, ideal league universities
(06:50):
or anything like that.
But we thought, yeah, let, let,let, let's try it out.
You know, we're, we're alreadylike fairly the, I would say in
Europe, Straight it up.
So we, we started at this timeraising funds and like building
open classrooms, as, as you knowit
Eloy (07:05):
Wow.
That's a, that's a great story.
So I, I know as I've spoken tofounders over the years, they're
very, Sensitive in particularabout the name that they gave
their startup.
What, what is it about the nameopen classrooms that, uh, that
led you to use that as the nameof your new company?
Pierre (07:25):
There is a good story behind it because the name of
the website we started back in1999 was not open classrooms, it
was in French ci, which means,like the website for, uh,
newbies, basically like where,where you learn from scratch,
from zero.
and at this time, so itobviously in France, and when we
(07:47):
decided to move into like theMOK space and degrees and
becoming a college and so on, atthis very time, we wanted to
become more global, but also wewere perceived as a community to
learn
Eloy (08:02):
Uhhuh.
Pierre (08:03):
and tech.
so some of our community thoughtthat we were an education.
Platform and some others thoughtwe were an IT platform,
interestingly.
And, and both were true in away.
so we wanted to, to make clearthat our intents was education.
it is a content and maybe wewould get into other fields of
(08:27):
study in the future.
our true mission was aroundeducation, so we wanted to.
Global and clearly on education.
We had also this mindset of opensource.
we published everything underthe same license as Wikipedia
creative comments, so it's veryopen.
So, open something in educationand, and then we came up with,
(08:50):
with this name, open Classrooms.
Eloy (08:53):
Well, I think it's stuck.
Let's talk about openclassrooms.
H how do you see your companychanging the way.
Learners and employers, uh,think about, things like
apprenticeships, because I knowyour model, some of your success
has been focused on this notionof creating, pathways to jobs.
(09:14):
you mentioned it, which areperfect for the apprenticeship
model.
So how, how do you see whatyou're doing changing the way
that learners and employersthink about apprenticeships?
Pierre (09:26):
so I'd say back to the mission of women classrooms
making education accessibleoffers, in a way, it means
several things.
It means accessible anywhere,anytime, all ages, in a very
flexible way, in terms of yourscale accessible to individuals
with disabilities.
Obviously financiallyaccessible.
(09:46):
So it should be cheap or free orfunded.
you shouldn't be in debt, to getaccess to quality education.
But education should also be away to access, really impactful
socioeconomic mobility.
So, get a job, get a littlesalary inquiries, switch
carriers, create your ownventure.
So how do you find a way to do.
(10:08):
All of that at the same time.
It's not, it's not easy.
At the, you know, on the marketthere is also huge talent gaps,
skills, gaps on pros that manyneeds.
They don't fulfill them in areally efficient way.
so we wanted to find a way toprovide quality education at
scale in an accessible wayleading to good carriers.
(10:29):
obviously at some point westarted getting into, the
apprenticeship space, which is,a walk and study program
eventually.
So it's really at the crossroadof, you know, college education,
higher education, learningtraining.
And walking because you areeffectively already walking.
(10:50):
You have a work contract, youare employed by an employer.
You are at on the job.
for example, like four days aweek on the job training, one
day a week, you are gonna betrained, biased by open
classrooms with a mentor.
so it's a learn and earn, modelin which you are being paid
while.
(11:11):
You get, training.
So it's really wonderful becausen not only, you don't have to
pay for any nutrition fees,never.
You're not in debt.
and you get paid, so you havewages, you know, fors.
On tech jobs, it would betypically about$25 an hour on
getting, you know, in increasedover time as you gain more
(11:33):
skills and after, you know, six,12 months, you could get to 40,
$50 an hour, which is prettydecent wage when you are, when
you are still learning, in, in acollege, uh, degree program.
So, our intent first was to saya, the ideal world would be that
you are employed from day one.
(11:55):
Your training costs are coveredby the employer.
You learn on the job and it isrecognized, academically.
So you, you get courage creditsand at the end you could have
actually a courage degree thisway.
So it's what we would calldegree apprenticeship.
So in a way, you would haveaccess to courage, education for
free, being paid while you do
Eloy (12:17):
That sounds like a great deal.
Now that you've been operatingin the US for some time, you're
living in New York now, you'rebecoming quite, uh, the
American, what do you see as themain difference in the way that.
People think aboutapprenticeships and this job
training and education aspect ofwhat you do, what's different in
(12:37):
France versus what you havefound here in the us?
Pierre (12:42):
I think there are many similarities actually, and
obviously differences, but thesimilarities we've seen in
Europe, a few years ago.
are, are the same.
and that means, for example,there is, there is confusion
between a apprenticeship andinternship or co-ops, and it's,
so, it's not very clear what aapprenticeship means to
(13:04):
employers, to families, tostudents.
It there is still, like, it'sstill doubling up.
I would say.
It's still, it still requiressome level of.
explaining what a apprenticeshipmeans.
So that's one., behind aapprenticeship, there is a
preconception that aapprenticeship is only for lower
levels of qualification.
(13:26):
Trade jobs, blue collar jobs.
So a apprenticeship cannot makesense for, wanna become a
plumber or a truck driver orcarpenter.
but I want to have a couragedegree.
I wanna be an engineer.
I want to be this and that.
So apprenticeship is really notfor me.
and we have this sameconception, I would say in
Europe, cuz our apprenticeship,the way a apprenticeship was
(13:47):
initially created centuries ago.
It came from trade jobs.
So it makes sense that theperception is around the trade
jobs and blue collar, jobs thatchanged over time.
and I think we've seen more andmore apprenticeship programs, on
higher level, levels ofqualifications and, and white
collar jobs or, or new collarjobs.
And then, The blend betweenapprenticeship and courage
(14:09):
degree programs.
So in a way, for example, inFrance, and that came fairly
recently, uh, through publicpolicy changes in 2018.
Then the covid wave also, reallyhave accelerate the access to,
apprenticeship the governmentalso, but down some stimulus
package to incentivize employersto hire apprentices.
(14:31):
And in a nutshell, in in aboutfive years, we went from.
400,000 apprentices in thecountry to nearly 1 million.
So more than doubling in fiveyears in the overall processes.
in comparison in, in the statesright now we have less than half
that number of apprentices, butthe country is five times
(14:51):
bigger, so per, per capita isabout 10 times more.
It's as if there were 5 millionapproaches in the states right
now.
We have only a 10th of that.
So huge increase.
you have now about 20, 25% of anage group that is in a
partnership.
At a given time in France, it'shuge.
(15:13):
So it becoming reallymainstream.
and what became mainstream inthe perception is that you can
access the best education, thebest colleges through a
apprenticeship.
So you can graduate from, let'ssay Harvard or m i t
Eloy (15:30):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (15:31):
So they completely changed the perception both by
employers and also by familiesand parents, right?
Because.
If you can get an I Leaguedegree through a apprenticeship,
then a apprenticeship is pretty,pretty good and it's debt free
and you get paid and so on andso forth.
so they really moved the needleand we're starting seeing that
journey, in the states, but we,we still probably have a few
(15:54):
years ahead of us, to, make thatchange completely.
Eloy (15:57):
Well, you're young so you have plenty of time.
Pierre (16:00):
Exactly in energy.
Eloy (16:02):
Now that you've been, operating in the US for, some
time, what kind of, partners doyou have here in the us?
What, what are your typicalpartners
Pierre (16:11):
So first of all, in the state, we, we focus on, on
Eloy (16:15):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (16:16):
With the US Department of Labor to have our
apprenticeship programsrecognized.
So we call that registered.
so it leads to a U S D Lcertificate of completion for
our practices.
Employers have also access to.
First sale of approval in some,in some way, but also funding.
so we got, uh, you know, we'reeastern in several states.
(16:37):
and then, obviously aapprenticeship is really driven
by employers demand, so you needto start from the employer side.
So we started walking withcompanies like Merck or Nestle,
on their.
Business needs in terms oftalent,
Eloy (16:52):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (16:52):
jobs.
They struggle to hire on certainjobs like data, for example,
and, and they have businessesin, in, in, in that field, in
that skillset, but also achallenge in terms of diversity,
and creating more diverse talentpipelines.
So, we bring them in a way, asolution to.
(17:13):
Solve those business challengesand the skills gap
Eloy (17:18):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (17:18):
and at the same time, this diversity, gap, they,
they're also face.
So we started walking withemployers, and then down the
road, obviously we startedoperating apprenticeship
programs.
So finding a process, trainingthem on the job.
Fulfilling business needs and soon.
And then more recently westarted also collaborating with
(17:39):
universities, colleges andcommunity colleges, to help them
provide, pathways, careerpathways to their graduates, and
operate more and more, uh,apprenticeship programs, free
apprenticeship and thepartnership programs locally in
the local community, leveragingtheir.
And graduates to, again, fulfilllocal employers needs.
(18:01):
so it's been more recent wherewe started also working with,
universities around credittransfer agreements.
For example, UMass would, youknow, credits to our students
and, and graduates or processes.
so really, trying to buildpartnerships with the ecosystem
around higher education.
and workforce development.
(18:21):
So that means employers,universities, colleges,
community colleges, workforcedevelopment boards as well
states themselves.
So it's a complex model becauseyou need to walk with many
different entities.
Eloy (18:33):
Do you find the regulatory environment, better or worse,
here in the US versus, in theeu?
Pierre (18:40):
I would say there is a lot of area of improvements.
Eloy (18:46):
Well, it's nice to see that you have a political bone
in you, so that was a goodpolitical answer to the
question.
Pierre (18:54):
Yeah.
No, I, I, I, I you know thatfield, better than anybody, uh,
and, and clearly on a highereducation, there are many
challenges when, when it comesto higher education in states
student debt, student outcomesto placement rates, the cost of
education.
all of those challenges need,absolutely need to be addressed.
(19:15):
we, we we're seeing a decline instudent enrollments in higher
education for, for just a fewyears.
And, and that decline willcontinue to probably accelerate
cuz no, nobody can afford,college education, uh, anymore
versus, you know, the ROI and,and, and the upside on your
career.
So.
Huge challenge there.
And I think, uh, a part of that,you know, lies in, in public
(19:39):
policy, clearly in accreditationTitle four and all of that on a
apprenticeship.
I'd say the apprenticeshipmarket is still fairly, skewed
towards trade jobs, blue collarworkers.
It's not growing quickly, eventhough there is a lot of
interest.
There's a lot of likeconversations and public debates
(20:00):
around a partnership, but thenumber of references in the
country is not growing.
it's kind of flat-ish.
it might grow.
and many institutions such asopen classrooms are trying to.
Push on that agenda.
some governors also are pushingreally harm on that, like in
California.
but we're still, we're, we'renot there yet.
(20:22):
the, the level of regulationand, and, public is still fairly
Eloy (20:28):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (20:28):
It's still fairly.
Scattered and it origin genericin the country, meaning that
apprenticeship providers arevery local and usually not
for-profit organization.
So it in a way, it, it's notvery scalable.
So you need to bringapprenticeship providers into
what we call intermediary.
(20:50):
So really making, matchesbetween employers and, and, and
the processes.
you need to bring scalablemodels and you need a business
model to, to do that.
So some sort of funding thatcould come from employers
privately funded, could comefrom states or workforce
development bots in, in a way,or mix of all of the above.
(21:11):
But it needs to be scalable andeverywhere in Europe where we've
seen a really fast growth in thenumber of processes.
Like in France or the UK aswell, in Germany and
Switzerland, we've seen achallenging public policy with a
scalable business model.
Whenever we'll start seeing thatin the states.
(21:34):
I do think we're starting a hugegrowth in the number of
apprentices that might happen inthe f in the next few years,
right now in California, wherethey started to introduce a more
scalable business model forapprenticeship.
So very curious to see, howthat's gonna unfold.
Eloy (21:52):
I think the, key here is.
The employers, and if they'redriving this, change, if they're
driving the demand forapprenticeships, I think you'll
start to see public policychange.
I know that's, that's beenhappening here in California.
The conversations aroundapprenticeships have picked up
significantly in the last fiveyears and post covid.
(22:14):
I think that the kinds of areasof employment that are in great
demand, whether that'shealthcare, farm tech, uh, it.
Teaching, they're all very wellaligned with the apprenticeship
model.
So I'm, I'm hopeful that thispicks up the pace here in the
next few years.
Let me, ask you a couple lastquestions before we close.
(22:35):
So, as a founder, operating herein the US now, the economic
environment has been, you know,relatively tough.
how have you been navigatingthis difficult economic
environment, especially with thebackdrop of the near collapse of
Silicon Valley Bank, theshutdown of several regional
banks?
(22:56):
It seems like every week we hearmore news about the challenges
in the banking industry.
Is that constraining you or, doyou feel confident that you're
gonna be able to continue toaccess the capital you need to
grow?
Pierre (23:08):
Those are very good questions and I, I think also,
generally speaking, the EdTechindustry has been hit pretty
badly in, you know, in the past12 months.
And, and still, you know, wewe're, we're seeing, you know,
last week, uh, Chegg announcedthat G P T is starting, you
know, to.
Have a ne negative impact on, ontheir business, their share drop
(23:29):
by 50%.
And, and there are other, techplayers, like Pearson, you know,
also took a hit.
So, the tech environment also,you know, it's tough.
and evaluations went down.
The tech industry also, uh,obviously took, took a hit like
you explained.
So, it, it is a, it is a roughtime, uh, German speaking in the
(23:51):
industry.
It was also kind of crazy goodin 2020 and 2021.
Probably too good.
And, and there, there isobviously kind, uh, swing back
and that we're, we'reexperiencing right now.
I, I see it obviously as anopportunity because, we've seen
also many, many morecompetitors, many more players,
that's gonna clean up themarket, quite frankly.
(24:12):
So, now, how can we navigatethat?
Concretely I think it'schallenging because our model is
really skewed towards employers.
B2B clients and as you said, B2Bclients right now.
Also, you know, more cautious,some of them in taking Australia
laying off.
at the very least, they're beingreally more cautious about,
(24:34):
recruitments.
So obviously a partnership in aways recruitments.
So, the number of recruitments.
Is that definitely decreasing?
So what we try to be agile andadapt our model, when there is
less requirement, it's likelythat you need, you still need
new skills, to adapt to newchallenges that your industry is
facing.
(24:54):
So that means you're gonnaprobably invest more in finding
those skills internally.
Eloy (24:58):
Mm-hmm.
Pierre (24:59):
so meaning upscaling and rescaling existing employees.
So we're seeing that.
move, uh, in the past year fromwhat I would call external
apprenticeship, meaning buildinga new talent pipeline to hire a
new talent.
towards more like internalapprenticeship, meaning learning
a new job on the job, and, and,and providing that to existing
(25:21):
employees first.
We have a product in both, in,in Bo Figman, but it's, it's
obviously a challenge in, theway you, you sell and who you
sell to.
I think also large organizationshave been.
He, but SMBs are still likefairly dynamic actually.
So convincing approach,convincing SMBs to hire our
process is definitely, on thetop of our agenda.
(25:44):
It's not easy.
But I think if we can startseeing SMB, smaller businesses
hire more and more processes,like it is the case again in,
you know, Germany, Switzerland,uk, France, and Europe, that
will scale, the number res inthe countries.
So we're definitely pushing now.
Eloy (26:00):
Well, you've survived since age 11, so I think you're,
you'll be just fine.
Pierre (26:04):
It's
Eloy (26:05):
fine.
Well, let me ask you one finalquestion.
Pierre, you were recently at A SU G S V, that's where we bumped
into each other.
I know you've been attending,the last, few years.
Did you enjoy this year's A S UG S V?
And what did you get out of theexperience?
Pierre (26:21):
I enjoyed it.
I was very disappointed.
It was raining and cold thisyear.
what is going on there?
Some Diego raining in in April,but, but yeah, obviously enjoyed
it.
It's been, It's always a greatexperience.
You know, you, you, you seeeverybody in the industry pretty
much in, in, in three days.
lots of conversations around AIchat, G P T I mean, it was, on,
(26:45):
on everybody's, panel and, topof mind pretty much anywhere.
I, I saw also a lot of, I wouldsay a lot of organizations.
Kind of plateauing and kind ofrefocusing energies, resources
and trying to reassess, okay,what is it that we need, we need
to do.
So, many organizations, Iactually in the past few years
(27:07):
were very bullish.
I think that really changed,like we, we talked about
earlier.
so I didn't see a lot of,massive progress actually
between.
This year and last year'sedition, most organizations were
almost around the same stage,which is quite interesting.
But I've seen also, you know,reading between the lines, also
(27:30):
many organizations reallystruggling just to, get funding
and, and navigating throughthose tough times.
So it's gonna be interesting, tosee in a year time, mu will
survive that, tougherenvironment.
Which type of decisions, didthey, did they take, uh, good
and bad and learn from, from,those, those mistakes and, and,
(27:52):
and moves they made?
Eloy (27:53):
Well, Pierre, I really appreciate you taking time out
of your busy day to join us hereon the Rant.
really love what you're doing,love your story.
So really wish you the best ofluck and thank you for being,
here on the rent.
Pierre (28:07):
Thank you.
Eloy (28:07):
All right.
Thanks everyone for joining meon the rant.
If you enjoyed this episode, hitthe like button and leave me
your comments to hear moreepisodes.
Subscribe to this YouTubechannel or find us on your
favorite podcast platform.
Take care everybody, and we'llbe back with you soon
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