October 17, 2023 • 28 mins
In this episode, I talk with Jeff Maggioncalda, CEO at Coursera. Coursera is one of the pioneers of the MOOC (Massive Open Online Course) movement and is now a publicly traded company valued at more than $2 billion. I talk with Jeff about the history of the company, who it is serving and how he and his team are incorporating GAI into their course offerings. Coursera is reaching working learners all over the world and is a key education provider that employers turn to for their workforce needs.
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Eloy (00:08):
Hi, I'm Eloy Ortiz Oakley, and welcome back to the rant.
The podcast where we pull backthe curtain and break down the
people, the policies, and thepolitics of our higher education
system.
In this episode, I get to talkwith Jeff Mein Calta, the C e O
of Coursera.
Coursera is one of thetrailblazers of the massive open
(00:30):
online course movement,otherwise known as MOOCs, and it
has evolved into one of theworld's.
Largest learning platforms,offering more than 4,000
courses.
We will discuss Coursera'sroots, its evolution, and how
it's harnessing the power ofgenerative ai.
So Jeff, welcome to the Ran.
Jeff (00:53):
Hey, it's great to be here, Eloy.
Thank you so much for having me.
Eloy (00:56):
Absolutely.
Well, it's great to have you onthe podcast, Jeff, and
appreciate you taking the time.
Now, you've been leadingCoursera since 2017 and you've
seen many changes along the way,changes in the company, changes
in the MOOC universe and themovement.
However, before we get into allof that, I'd love to just spend
(01:17):
a little bit of time.
Getting to know you better andmaking sure that our listeners
get to know you.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour higher education journey
and what led you to thisleadership role at Coursera.
Jeff (01:30):
Well, thanks.
I grew up in California andended up going to Stanford as an
undergrad.
I always loved English and so Iwas an English major and my dad
my freshman year said, you know,Jeff, I.
I'm not paying for Stanford.
If you get an English degree,that's not gonna make you any
money.
And, uh, I was, I was like asemi rebel, so I thought, all
(01:52):
right, I'll, I'll give my dadwhat he wants.
But I decided I was still gonnabe an English major and I double
majored in quantitativeeconomics and English.
So I, I did a little bit of theright side of the brain and a
little bit of the, uh, left sideof the brain.
So I, was at Stanford,
Eloy (02:06):
Well, have, I have two English majors of my kids, so
there's hope for them.
Jeff (02:10):
Absolutely.
Well tell'em they should also dosomething in economics or
computer programming.
so I did that.
I worked at a litigationconsulting firm for a few years,
doing like statistical andfinancial analysis for business
litigation.
And then I went back to theStanford Business School and got
an M B A.
I was planning to go to McKinseyand then I got this incredible,
(02:33):
I mean, literally once in alifetime opportunity where, one
of the professors at Stanford,bill Sharp, who's a Nobel Nobel
president in economics, he said,Hey, I wanna start a tech
company.
This was in 1996.
the internet was just startingand he said, I wanna basically
do investment advice for 4 0 1 kparticipants.
Do you wanna write a businessplan and try to get it, get it
(02:55):
funded?
So I was the first employee.
Financial engines back in 1996,
Eloy (02:59):
Uhhuh.
Jeff (03:00):
I was a c e O there for 18 years.
I, we tried so many ways tobuild a successful company and
like on our fifth try, we, itfinally clicked and we found
something that people reallywanted and it ended up going
public and it was, it turned outto be a great success.
but not after years and years ofwork and pivoting and nearly
(03:22):
losing my job multiple times.
and then I took a, a few yearsoff, and then I got a kind of a
second in a lifetimeopportunity, I guess, because
another pair of Stanfordprofessors this time at Coursera
said, Hey, we're looking for a ce O.
Would you be interested inapplying?
And, and I, I fell in love withthe idea and I'm the luckiest
guy in the world to have beengiven the opportunity.
Eloy (03:43):
Wow.
Well, that's a, that's a greatstory.
and, it seemed like all roadskept leading back to, to
Stanford for you.
Jeff (03:51):
It, it seems that way.
Uh, right now, you know, I'm inPalo Alto.
I, I live five.
Yeah, it's good weather outhere.
Eloy (03:58):
Yes.
So let's talk about Coursera.
and you know, you may know this,but when I was president of Long
Beach City College, I, I had theopportunity and, and the
privilege to host a meeting ofthe California Little Hoover
Commission.
At that time, there was a lot ofinterest in the MOOC movement
and some of the stuff that washappening.
throughout California and so wayback in February of 2013, we
(04:22):
hosted the little HooverCommission on campus at Long
Beach City College andtestifying at that meeting where
Sebastian th Thune from Udacityand, and Daphne Kohler, the
co-founder
Jeff (04:34):
gosh.
What're a trailblazer.
That was very.
Eloy (04:39):
that was the beginning and it was such a fun and
interesting, hearing.
and of course some of the thingsthat, uh, Daphne and Sebastian
were talking about have come tofruition.
Some things have.
Still evolving, but nonetheless,for, for folks who, who are
interested in, in aretrospective of, uh, the early
(05:01):
days of the MOOC movement, thatis such an interesting, hearing
that people can find it onYouTube still if they're
interested.
Let me, let me turn back, to youand Coursera.
So, a lot has happened sinceFebruary of 2013.
tell us about Coursera today.
How has the company evolved and,and, and who are the learners
(05:21):
that you're serving today?
I,
Jeff (05:23):
well it's, it certainly has changed, but you know, some
of the things are stillfundamentally the same.
I.
What is the same is theunderpinnings of the promise,
which is that high qualityeducation using technology can
be made available to everyone.
And, we'll probably talk aboutai, but, but many technologies
(05:43):
including, including mobilephones, including five G,
including ai, are increasing inmany ways the accessibility of
education and the effectivenessof education.
So I think, you know, somethings are the same, which is,
That kind of open access, onlineto, to great educators.
And then I think it's enhancedand the business is enhanced
too.
(06:04):
We started, as you remember,back in the early days, it was
sort of open courses beingdelivered directly to
individuals on the internet.
And that was it.
It moved, you know, massivelyopen online courses.
that went along for quite sometime and it was just
universities doing it.
The, the a a first extension wasnot just the founding U started
in universities, which was likeStanford and Yale and, and
(06:26):
Michigan and Penn, I think.
but then more universitiesstarted publishing courses.
Universities outside of the USstarted publishing courses, and
then we had industry startpublishing courses.
This is in the 20, probably 2017time period, maybe 2020.
Maybe before that 2016.
so yeah, so we started havinguniversities and industry
(06:47):
creating courses.
then another major innovationwas, and this was under Rick
Levin, who, who preceded me as ce o, they started offering
Coursera not only directly toindividuals, but also to
institutions, uh, first tobusinesses through Coursera for
business.
Where businesses were looking toupskill and re-skill their
employees and they couldn't sendthem all back to college.
(07:09):
you know, turns out workingadults have jobs and often have,
and they can't just show up oncampus.
so the flexibility of onlinelearning and the breadth of
content, especially in datascience, computer science, very,
appealing to companies.
A year later, in 2017, welaunched Coursera for
government.
(07:30):
And then in 2019, October, justa few months before the
pandemic, we launched Courserafor campus.
And this is a version ofCoursera for colleges and
universities that wannasubscribe to these online
courses and build the coursesinto the curriculum.
And so it turned out to bepretty good timing because you
know, a few months later,basically every single
(07:51):
university and school in theworld closed 1.6.
Billions students were out of,uh, couldn't go to a class.
And so, you know, many of themstarted learning online.
So those are some of the big ininnovations.
And I'd say that, a couple ofother quick ones are, Number
one, using, these open coursesas part of degree programs.
So now there's many degrees thatare built on MOOCs with their,
(08:14):
you know, they're fullyaccredited degrees from
University of Pennsylvania,university of Michigan, imper
College of London, you know, allkinds of great schools.
And then on the industry side,they've kind of expanded as
well, not just a mooc.
A series of MOOCs in what wecall professional certificates.
These are job training programsthat are created by Google and
Microsoft and I B M and, andAmazon and others.
(08:37):
it's definitely, it's, it'sdefinitely expanded.
Eloy (08:39):
Well, a lot has been happening.
we've heard a lot about theimportance of reskilling and
upskilling in the Americanworkforce, and you just touched
on some of the work that you'redoing, but how, how can
cross-sector collaborationcontribute?
To the reskilling revolution andand effectively address the
supply side challenges.
What, what crucial role doemployees play in supporting
(09:02):
workforce reskilling andupskilling efforts?
'cause this is certainlysomething that a lot of
different organizations andagencies are thinking about as,
the economy and the workforcecontinues to change.
Jeff (09:13):
it really is a, an ecosystem of collaboration
that's gonna be required.
I mean, just governments can'treally do it on their own, just
universities can't do on theirown.
It's.
Collaboration among the bigstakeholders.
so when you, when we have, 300universities and industry, uh,
partners creating, there's about6,000 courses now.
(09:35):
these institutions that authoron Coursera come from around the
world.
So both in industry anduniversities, we have a hundred
and about 130 million individuallearners all around the world.
And so, you know, we have.
Broad constituent of learns fromdifferent countries, different
backgrounds, different genders,et cetera, et cetera.
And they're coming to Courseramostly to advance their careers,
but you know, different types ofcareers.
(09:56):
But especially when we starteddoing Coursera for business,
government and campus, thingsgot interesting.
and what we find is this, Imean, they each have different
roles to play.
Generally speaking, the businessis kind of at the center because
the business creates the jobsand most adult learners, Are
interested in getting a job.
So they're thinking, well, whatdo I need to learn to get a job
(10:19):
that pays better and and maybehas more flexibility?
So the visibility with theemployers and what they need.
What positions do they needfilled and what skills do they
need people to have, and whatknowledge and abilities and
mindsets.
That's kind of a, to somedegree, the first mover because
that's what learners come for.
But then you say, well, the, theeducators clearly play a big
(10:39):
role because they have to createthe material to create those
skills and that knowledge, andthey don't always have a good
connection, the educators andthe employers so that the
educators know, you know, whatare employers looking for and
things are changing quickly.
So how can you keep up withthat?
So the educators, have a, a bigrole to play.
And then finally, there'sgovernment, at least finally in,
(11:00):
in our model of kind ofinstitutional ecosystem.
There's the government where thegovernment plays a number of
different roles.
A lot of it's identifyingpopulations who need better
access, and a lot of it is thefunding to provide the kind of
service.
but you know, like in the stateof New York, we've seen some
really cool things where theDepartment of Labor.
(11:20):
Has created, a workforcedevelopment program so that
every unemployed person in NewYork has access to Coursera and
the, uh, department of Laborwent and talked to each of the
different regions of New York,the employers, and said, what
kinds of skills are you lookingfor?
And created special learningprograms depending on the part
of New York that the, that thecitizen is in.
Eloy (11:42):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (11:42):
And then they went to the City, university of New York and
the State University of New Yorksystem and started coordinating.
So that, on August 3rd we'regoing to announce that for suny,
in SUNY Empire, which is theironline, uh, college with 125
degrees, they're going to acceptcredit for any a c e recommended
course on Coursera, of which wehave, you know, 25 to 30.
(12:05):
So now there's a really neatinterplay between the Department
of Labor helping underemployedpeople get access to education
that's curated based onemployer's needs.
That pathway to a job can alsobe a pathway to a college degree
where you get credit at SUNY fortaking a course from Google or I
b m.
Eloy (12:26):
Wow, I didn't realize that.
My good friend, uh, chancellor,king over there was so
progressive.
Sounds like a great
Jeff (12:33):
And anyway, it's certainly happening in the educational
domain, in, in, in labor.
Of course, many governments aretraining up their workforce.
Many, state governors aresaying, we don't wanna require a
college degree.
We wanna do skills-based hiring.
How can we skill people throughalternative routes?
And, and a lot of this onlinelearning can help to do that
with the California StateLibrary.
(12:54):
This was super cool as well.
The library system basicallybought licenses.
It's like a new type of, oflibrary book.
So 25,000 Californians now haveaccess to Coursera through the
California state library system.
And so they get access, youknow, to best the best
universities and, and companiesin the, uh, in the world.
(13:15):
And, and now we're using AI toprovide personal coaching to any
California citizen with alibrary card
Eloy (13:20):
I'm gonna have to get my library card.
think I lost
Jeff (13:23):
right.
Eloy (13:24):
it.
you've talked about a lift, alot of different partnerships.
how do most learners findCoursera?
Jeff (13:31):
You know, most of them go onto Google and they search for
something.
Usually it's like, I want a jobin data science or online course
in, you know, leadership or UXdesign.
So most of the traffic comes toCoursera through search engine
optimization, and we don'tusually pay for ads, but.
And a lot of, a lot of thesecrets is this eloi.
It turns out when you havecourses from the top
(13:53):
universities and businesses,your search results rank really,
really high.
'cause people trust them so thatthe, the, they call it
authority.
So the authority of our partnersreally helps people find us
pretty easily.
So most people come through theinternet, but you know, in
Coursera for business, those areemployees who are introduced to
Coursera by their employers.
In campuses, the students areintroduced to Coursera by their
(14:16):
teachers, and then ingovernments, you know, a citizen
in California could beintroduced to Coursera through
the California State Librarysystem.
Eloy (14:24):
All right.
Well, let's, let's talk abouthow Coursera is harnessing the
power of, generative ai or g i,a lot has been talked about
since the launch of chat G p tearlier this year.
How are you and your teamthinking about incorporating g a
(14:44):
I into your platform, and whatdoes this mean for your
learners?
Jeff (14:48):
we were sort of tracking.
This whole generative AIevolution for, it's been around
for a few years.
I think 2017 Google wrote thisseminal paper about this new,
neural network technology aroundattention, which is a way of
kind of emphasizing certainparts of this neural network.
And, and that sort of gave riseto generative ai.
(15:08):
I mean, honestly, my team waskind of watching it.
They were saying, Hey, Jeff, youknow, pay attention.
And I was kind of payingattention.
I'll be totally honest.
It wasn't until chat G p t, youknow, G P T 3.5 was a big
advance and they made it public.
And I got my own account inearly December and I freaked
out.
I was just like, as an Englishmajor, I mean, it's crazy.
(15:30):
Eloy, right?
This is the first time in mylife.
I could like talk to a computerand it was really amazing, like
stunning to me.
I mean, there was, Arthur ClarkI think said, any technology
sufficiently advanced isindistinguishable from magic.
And that's how I felt.
I was like, this is like, thisis magic and now not perfect.
(15:51):
It has flaws, it has, has risks,et cetera.
We could talk about all that,but I was just stunned by the
capability.
So what we did is we immediatelyconvened a team in early
January.
And we identified a fewdifferent ways that that AI was
gonna impact Coursera.
And they've all been basicallyturning out to be true.
But like to a large degree,situational awareness is the
first thing that a CEO's gottado when, when things are
(16:13):
changing.
So, so first of all, we're like,wow, this could change the way
that people learn.
So having a personal learningassistant who is.
Totally personalized andinteractive.
And so it's, it's like everylearner having their own tutor.
We call it coach.
it's very, very cool and othersare starting to do this as well.
(16:34):
I think we'll have many of thesethings around, but it really is
extraordinary how, how,effective the personalized
learning can be.
So that's number one.
It's kind of personalized,interactive learning for the end
learner.
Uh, number two is somethingwe're building called Course
Builder.
This is helping our partners.
Generate courses and updatecourses and generate new audio
(16:55):
and video and text and things.
So the ability to generatecontent, although you gotta make
sure that it's not, uh,hallucinating and that the
factuality is high.
The ability to, to generatecontent is being, you know,
radically transformed.
Just not just language, butsound and images as well.
That's the second big thing.
The third, which we are, I'mflying out to Indonesia and
(17:15):
Thailand.
In two weeks.
We're announcing globaltranslation of 2000 courses
into, in the next 60 days, intoseven different languages.
But effectively, AI willeliminate.
The language barrier forasynchronous learning online.
So basically any learner inalmost any language will be able
(17:36):
to learn from any professor inor or instructor in almost any
language.
So that will be super cool.
And then a fourth one is that weneed more AI content on the
platform.
So a lot more people are comingto Coursera to learn about AI
'cause it's such a hot topic.
The fifth one is that jobs arechanging.
So lots of people's jobs,especially in marketing, in
(17:59):
legal, anyone who works withlanguage, computer programmers,
jobs are gonna be completelytransformed.
So they're gonna need to getre-skilled.
And then the final one, I guessthis is number six, is that we,
at Coursera, we're retooling theway we do our work so that you
know, we're putting in moreautomated processes utilizing
this new generative AI to.
Whether that's writing,marketing copy, or for me, I'm
(18:20):
using it for decision making.
I make a lot of decisions notasking, you know, I'm not just
going with whatever the G P Tsays, but I have it as a thought
partner and I'm, I'm kind oftalking to chat t all day long
in my job.
Eloy (18:34):
Well, I'm gonna date myself, but I'm having visions
of Hal.
Jeff (18:39):
Well, you know, luckily I can still, currently, I can
still turn it off.
The problem with Hal is,
Eloy (18:47):
Oh my goodness.
All right, well, um, let's talkabout.
Your learning platform manyleaders in traditional higher
education and many policymakers, I know certainly many
here in California andthroughout the country, they
still raise doubts.
About the use of online learningand the use of technology and
(19:10):
education, what do you say topeople who still doubt the power
of technology to increase accessto quality learning?
Jeff (19:19):
the first thing that I would say is when you have over
a hundred million people, 80% ofthem are not in the United
States.
almost 50% of them are women.
And in our STEM enrollments,something like, uh, 38% are
women, which is not 50%, butit's definitely been climbing.
The numbers don't lie.
(19:40):
I mean, the numbers just don'tlie.
We're, we're now a publiclytraded company worth a couple
billion dollars because turnsout we're really meeting
people's needs, you know, frompeople around the world.
Now, it's not to say it'sperfect, and I think where,
where I, where I do say, well,you know, you do have a point is
that, you know, technology willnot be able to do, especially
(20:01):
for younger people, I meanadolescents and, and anyone K
through 12, in my view.
Having, you know, been theremyself and my, and raising three
daughters who are now all intheir, late twenties, early
thirties.
A lot of learning is social.
So, no, I think it would bedystopian and horrendous.
And we saw a taste of it duringCovid if our younger people went
(20:22):
to school and it was alltechnology.
that's not the kind learningthat we need to do.
We need a lot more sociallearning, but for working adults
who are looking for a betterjob.
Who wanna learn some skills to,you know, advance their careers
and, and get more opportunityand pay, uh, technology, online
learning.
And, and some of these advanceshas been, just absolutely
(20:44):
unequivocally, demonstrablyeffective, not perfect, and not
in every single domain, but justoverwhelmingly effective in, uh,
providing incredibleopportunities for.
Tens of millions of people.
So, yeah, I, so this kind of aquestion of what, what role
should it play and what roleshould it not play?
I mean, it will not replacehumans, but boy does it
(21:05):
certainly provide a lot moreaccess to high quality
education.
Eloy (21:08):
Well, I, I think you made the point here, which is it's
not about replacing theexisting.
Pedagogy and the existinglearning for a whole host of
people who, who have the abilityto access a good residential,
traditional, higher educationexperience.
But it expands the myriad ofopportunities for people who are
(21:29):
in different parts, in points intheir life, who wanna access
knowledge, who wanna accessskills.
And so I think, I think that'swhere it plays an important
role.
And of course, on the flip side,I spend a lot of time talking
about, How traditional highereducation isn't perfect either,
and it's not built everylearner.
(21:50):
So I think the more options andthe more opportunities we have
to personalize learning forevery individual, I think the
better off we, we will be in
Jeff (22:01):
Yeah, I think it's a, it's a really good point.
I mean, if you look attechnology, say with, with
computers.
When they first were created,the computer sat on a desk and
it could do certain things.
I mean, what it did really wellwas Lotus 1 2 3, like the
spreadsheet was the killer appof the personal computer back in
the, in the eighties.
but as technology startsmorphing into phones, it starts
(22:21):
getting into different elementsof our lives.
And, and, and the way that youcan use it expands.
You hit on something I think isreally important.
Traditional education has servedcertain populations really well
and really effectively.
Eloy (22:33):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (22:34):
But it has failed to serve an awful lot of populations that
really need and deserve to, tohave similar kinds of
opportunities.
And so especially for, you know,working people, people with
lower levels of education,people who have less money, I.
Who can't afford to quit theirjob.
'cause sometimes they'reworking, two or three don't have
(22:55):
a car, or maybe their spousetakes their car so they don't
have good access totransportation and they're
caring for other family members,so they can't show up at a
campus at a certain point intime.
I mean, yeah, technology is notperfect, but the current higher
education system is not servingeverybody perfectly either.
And I think that together, youknow, technology with, with some
of the better parts oftraditional education can serve
(23:17):
a lot more people a lot moreeffectively.
Well, I certainly agree withthat point.
so let me, let me pose thisquestion to you as we begin to
close, and I appreciate youtaking all this time, outta your
busy schedule to, to talk withus.
But where do you see Courseragoing over the next five years,
(23:38):
given all the technologyadvances that you've seen?
it's getting harder and harderto predict because like you
said, the technology is comingfaster and faster.
Clearly AI will be a big part ofthat future, but, you know, ai,
I see that much more as anenabler, uh, and potentially a
threat.
It's something that we have tokind of deal with.
It could make it an opportunityor else it'll be a threat, but
(23:58):
it is definitely a change thisyear.
But when I think about where weneed to go as a company, I think
about, well, who, who do we needto serve?
I'm, I'm really excited aboutthe way we're doing the
translations.
I think we can serve a moreglobal population.
And it sounds very, Perhaps, youknow, basic, but obviously
having the content in a languagethat people can speak, that's
(24:21):
pretty important foraccessibility.
Having payment systems, youknow, not everybody uses credit
cards and, and so.
Being more accessible to peoplearound the world is a big part
of that.
And that has to do with languageand affordability and, and, and,
and payments.
It also includes working throughinstitutions like governments
and campuses and businesses toprovide that kinda learning
support.
So greater global access is, isa major thing.
(24:45):
I like to have, you know,hundreds of millions of
learners, not just a hundred andwhatever million.
Now, another major focus isgonna be connecting learning to
job opportunities.
if you have a college degree andyou have a nice long work
experience link, LinkedIn worksgreat
Eloy (25:01):
Right?
Jeff (25:01):
if you don't have a college degree and you wanna
switch careers into somethingthat pays better, that's not
easy.
It's like, well, you don't havea college degree and you don't
have any LinkedIn.
How do I know if I should hireyou or not?
And people talk aboutskills-based hiring, which is
really important to afford moreopportunities to people.
How do you do that?
And what we're trying to do, wejust announced Coursera hiring
(25:22):
solutions in April, is now allof the learners on Coursera can
build personal, sort of skillprofiles that they can show to
an employer.
And we can allow employers tofind people who have skills,
even if those people don't havea lot of work experience in a
college degree.
Another piece of what we'redoing and really pushing on is.
(25:44):
This idea of bridging industryand higher education.
So what higher education doesreally well is college degrees
and that's awesome, but youknow, we gotta make them more
affordable and flexible.
What industry has done reallywell, and it's really
turbocharging, a lot of ourconsumer segment are these
professional certificates andthese are 5,000 hours.
(26:05):
What we're seeing globally, andit's very exciting, is.
We are working with the a c E,the American Council on
Education.
They're doing creditrecommendations for these
industry professionalcertificates, and then colleges
are implementing these as careerelectives in their for credit
curricula.
(26:25):
So another major sort of trendfor us is gonna be bridging the
gap between industry and highereducation, via what you might
call career electives.
These industry professionalcertificates that get
integrated.
Count as credit for priorlearning, you know, towards
college degrees.
So that's another.
And then finally, we talked alittle bit about ai, but clearly
as an enabler, AI will be a bigpart of, of what we do in terms
(26:49):
of personalized interactivelearning with personalized
feedback course contentgeneration for our partners.
and then love the jobstransitions have to do as well
with job opportunities.
Like how can we help people getaccess to the new jobs that'll
be created and deal with some ofthe disruption that's gonna be
coming.
Eloy (27:06):
Well, I think those are all great things to look forward
to, especially when you thinkabout how to better support
learners who wanna connect to,to those jobs So, um, Jeff, I
really appreciate you taking thetime to tell us about what
you're doing, to tell us moreabout Coursera.
So thanks for being with me hereon the Rain.
Jeff (27:26):
Thank you so much, elo.
I really appreciate it.
Eloy (27:29):
All right.
Well, you've been listening tomy conversation w with Jeff as
we've been talking about, uh,the evolution of Coursera and
where they're going into thefuture.
Lots of exciting stuff.
So if you enjoyed this episode,hit the like button.
Uh, let me know your thoughtsand the comments, uh, about
Coursera, about skills-basedhiring, about the use of ga I.
(27:52):
If you are following us on thisYouTube channel, subscribe and
continue to follow us on yourfavorite podcast platform.
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and we'll see you
soon.
Hi, I'm Eloy Ortiz Oakley, and welcome back to the rant.
The podcast where we pull backthe curtain and break down the
people, the policies, and thepolitics of our higher education
system.
In this episode, I get to talkwith Jeff Mein Calta, the C e O
of Coursera.
Coursera is one of thetrailblazers of the massive open
(00:30):
online course movement,otherwise known as MOOCs, and it
has evolved into one of theworld's.
Largest learning platforms,offering more than 4,000
courses.
We will discuss Coursera'sroots, its evolution, and how
it's harnessing the power ofgenerative ai.
So Jeff, welcome to the Ran.
Jeff (00:53):
Hey, it's great to be here, Eloy.
Thank you so much for having me.
Eloy (00:56):
Absolutely.
Well, it's great to have you onthe podcast, Jeff, and
appreciate you taking the time.
Now, you've been leadingCoursera since 2017 and you've
seen many changes along the way,changes in the company, changes
in the MOOC universe and themovement.
However, before we get into allof that, I'd love to just spend
(01:17):
a little bit of time.
Getting to know you better andmaking sure that our listeners
get to know you.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour higher education journey
and what led you to thisleadership role at Coursera.
Jeff (01:30):
Well, thanks.
I grew up in California andended up going to Stanford as an
undergrad.
I always loved English and so Iwas an English major and my dad
my freshman year said, you know,Jeff, I.
I'm not paying for Stanford.
If you get an English degree,that's not gonna make you any
money.
And, uh, I was, I was like asemi rebel, so I thought, all
(01:52):
right, I'll, I'll give my dadwhat he wants.
But I decided I was still gonnabe an English major and I double
majored in quantitativeeconomics and English.
So I, I did a little bit of theright side of the brain and a
little bit of the, uh, left sideof the brain.
So I, was at Stanford,
Eloy (02:06):
Well, have, I have two English majors of my kids, so
there's hope for them.
Jeff (02:10):
Absolutely.
Well tell'em they should also dosomething in economics or
computer programming.
so I did that.
I worked at a litigationconsulting firm for a few years,
doing like statistical andfinancial analysis for business
litigation.
And then I went back to theStanford Business School and got
an M B A.
I was planning to go to McKinseyand then I got this incredible,
(02:33):
I mean, literally once in alifetime opportunity where, one
of the professors at Stanford,bill Sharp, who's a Nobel Nobel
president in economics, he said,Hey, I wanna start a tech
company.
This was in 1996.
the internet was just startingand he said, I wanna basically
do investment advice for 4 0 1 kparticipants.
Do you wanna write a businessplan and try to get it, get it
(02:55):
funded?
So I was the first employee.
Financial engines back in 1996,
Eloy (02:59):
Uhhuh.
Jeff (03:00):
I was a c e O there for 18 years.
I, we tried so many ways tobuild a successful company and
like on our fifth try, we, itfinally clicked and we found
something that people reallywanted and it ended up going
public and it was, it turned outto be a great success.
but not after years and years ofwork and pivoting and nearly
(03:22):
losing my job multiple times.
and then I took a, a few yearsoff, and then I got a kind of a
second in a lifetimeopportunity, I guess, because
another pair of Stanfordprofessors this time at Coursera
said, Hey, we're looking for a ce O.
Would you be interested inapplying?
And, and I, I fell in love withthe idea and I'm the luckiest
guy in the world to have beengiven the opportunity.
Eloy (03:43):
Wow.
Well, that's a, that's a greatstory.
and, it seemed like all roadskept leading back to, to
Stanford for you.
Jeff (03:51):
It, it seems that way.
Uh, right now, you know, I'm inPalo Alto.
I, I live five.
Yeah, it's good weather outhere.
Eloy (03:58):
Yes.
So let's talk about Coursera.
and you know, you may know this,but when I was president of Long
Beach City College, I, I had theopportunity and, and the
privilege to host a meeting ofthe California Little Hoover
Commission.
At that time, there was a lot ofinterest in the MOOC movement
and some of the stuff that washappening.
throughout California and so wayback in February of 2013, we
(04:22):
hosted the little HooverCommission on campus at Long
Beach City College andtestifying at that meeting where
Sebastian th Thune from Udacityand, and Daphne Kohler, the
co-founder
Jeff (04:34):
gosh.
What're a trailblazer.
That was very.
Eloy (04:39):
that was the beginning and it was such a fun and
interesting, hearing.
and of course some of the thingsthat, uh, Daphne and Sebastian
were talking about have come tofruition.
Some things have.
Still evolving, but nonetheless,for, for folks who, who are
interested in, in aretrospective of, uh, the early
(05:01):
days of the MOOC movement, thatis such an interesting, hearing
that people can find it onYouTube still if they're
interested.
Let me, let me turn back, to youand Coursera.
So, a lot has happened sinceFebruary of 2013.
tell us about Coursera today.
How has the company evolved and,and, and who are the learners
(05:21):
that you're serving today?
I,
Jeff (05:23):
well it's, it certainly has changed, but you know, some
of the things are stillfundamentally the same.
I.
What is the same is theunderpinnings of the promise,
which is that high qualityeducation using technology can
be made available to everyone.
And, we'll probably talk aboutai, but, but many technologies
(05:43):
including, including mobilephones, including five G,
including ai, are increasing inmany ways the accessibility of
education and the effectivenessof education.
So I think, you know, somethings are the same, which is,
That kind of open access, onlineto, to great educators.
And then I think it's enhancedand the business is enhanced
too.
(06:04):
We started, as you remember,back in the early days, it was
sort of open courses beingdelivered directly to
individuals on the internet.
And that was it.
It moved, you know, massivelyopen online courses.
that went along for quite sometime and it was just
universities doing it.
The, the a a first extension wasnot just the founding U started
in universities, which was likeStanford and Yale and, and
(06:26):
Michigan and Penn, I think.
but then more universitiesstarted publishing courses.
Universities outside of the USstarted publishing courses, and
then we had industry startpublishing courses.
This is in the 20, probably 2017time period, maybe 2020.
Maybe before that 2016.
so yeah, so we started havinguniversities and industry
(06:47):
creating courses.
then another major innovationwas, and this was under Rick
Levin, who, who preceded me as ce o, they started offering
Coursera not only directly toindividuals, but also to
institutions, uh, first tobusinesses through Coursera for
business.
Where businesses were looking toupskill and re-skill their
employees and they couldn't sendthem all back to college.
(07:09):
you know, turns out workingadults have jobs and often have,
and they can't just show up oncampus.
so the flexibility of onlinelearning and the breadth of
content, especially in datascience, computer science, very,
appealing to companies.
A year later, in 2017, welaunched Coursera for
government.
(07:30):
And then in 2019, October, justa few months before the
pandemic, we launched Courserafor campus.
And this is a version ofCoursera for colleges and
universities that wannasubscribe to these online
courses and build the coursesinto the curriculum.
And so it turned out to bepretty good timing because you
know, a few months later,basically every single
(07:51):
university and school in theworld closed 1.6.
Billions students were out of,uh, couldn't go to a class.
And so, you know, many of themstarted learning online.
So those are some of the big ininnovations.
And I'd say that, a couple ofother quick ones are, Number
one, using, these open coursesas part of degree programs.
So now there's many degrees thatare built on MOOCs with their,
(08:14):
you know, they're fullyaccredited degrees from
University of Pennsylvania,university of Michigan, imper
College of London, you know, allkinds of great schools.
And then on the industry side,they've kind of expanded as
well, not just a mooc.
A series of MOOCs in what wecall professional certificates.
These are job training programsthat are created by Google and
Microsoft and I B M and, andAmazon and others.
(08:37):
it's definitely, it's, it'sdefinitely expanded.
Eloy (08:39):
Well, a lot has been happening.
we've heard a lot about theimportance of reskilling and
upskilling in the Americanworkforce, and you just touched
on some of the work that you'redoing, but how, how can
cross-sector collaborationcontribute?
To the reskilling revolution andand effectively address the
supply side challenges.
What, what crucial role doemployees play in supporting
(09:02):
workforce reskilling andupskilling efforts?
'cause this is certainlysomething that a lot of
different organizations andagencies are thinking about as,
the economy and the workforcecontinues to change.
Jeff (09:13):
it really is a, an ecosystem of collaboration
that's gonna be required.
I mean, just governments can'treally do it on their own, just
universities can't do on theirown.
It's.
Collaboration among the bigstakeholders.
so when you, when we have, 300universities and industry, uh,
partners creating, there's about6,000 courses now.
(09:35):
these institutions that authoron Coursera come from around the
world.
So both in industry anduniversities, we have a hundred
and about 130 million individuallearners all around the world.
And so, you know, we have.
Broad constituent of learns fromdifferent countries, different
backgrounds, different genders,et cetera, et cetera.
And they're coming to Courseramostly to advance their careers,
but you know, different types ofcareers.
(09:56):
But especially when we starteddoing Coursera for business,
government and campus, thingsgot interesting.
and what we find is this, Imean, they each have different
roles to play.
Generally speaking, the businessis kind of at the center because
the business creates the jobsand most adult learners, Are
interested in getting a job.
So they're thinking, well, whatdo I need to learn to get a job
(10:19):
that pays better and and maybehas more flexibility?
So the visibility with theemployers and what they need.
What positions do they needfilled and what skills do they
need people to have, and whatknowledge and abilities and
mindsets.
That's kind of a, to somedegree, the first mover because
that's what learners come for.
But then you say, well, the, theeducators clearly play a big
(10:39):
role because they have to createthe material to create those
skills and that knowledge, andthey don't always have a good
connection, the educators andthe employers so that the
educators know, you know, whatare employers looking for and
things are changing quickly.
So how can you keep up withthat?
So the educators, have a, a bigrole to play.
And then finally, there'sgovernment, at least finally in,
(11:00):
in our model of kind ofinstitutional ecosystem.
There's the government where thegovernment plays a number of
different roles.
A lot of it's identifyingpopulations who need better
access, and a lot of it is thefunding to provide the kind of
service.
but you know, like in the stateof New York, we've seen some
really cool things where theDepartment of Labor.
(11:20):
Has created, a workforcedevelopment program so that
every unemployed person in NewYork has access to Coursera and
the, uh, department of Laborwent and talked to each of the
different regions of New York,the employers, and said, what
kinds of skills are you lookingfor?
And created special learningprograms depending on the part
of New York that the, that thecitizen is in.
Eloy (11:42):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (11:42):
And then they went to the City, university of New York and
the State University of New Yorksystem and started coordinating.
So that, on August 3rd we'regoing to announce that for suny,
in SUNY Empire, which is theironline, uh, college with 125
degrees, they're going to acceptcredit for any a c e recommended
course on Coursera, of which wehave, you know, 25 to 30.
(12:05):
So now there's a really neatinterplay between the Department
of Labor helping underemployedpeople get access to education
that's curated based onemployer's needs.
That pathway to a job can alsobe a pathway to a college degree
where you get credit at SUNY fortaking a course from Google or I
b m.
Eloy (12:26):
Wow, I didn't realize that.
My good friend, uh, chancellor,king over there was so
progressive.
Sounds like a great
Jeff (12:33):
And anyway, it's certainly happening in the educational
domain, in, in, in labor.
Of course, many governments aretraining up their workforce.
Many, state governors aresaying, we don't wanna require a
college degree.
We wanna do skills-based hiring.
How can we skill people throughalternative routes?
And, and a lot of this onlinelearning can help to do that
with the California StateLibrary.
(12:54):
This was super cool as well.
The library system basicallybought licenses.
It's like a new type of, oflibrary book.
So 25,000 Californians now haveaccess to Coursera through the
California state library system.
And so they get access, youknow, to best the best
universities and, and companiesin the, uh, in the world.
(13:15):
And, and now we're using AI toprovide personal coaching to any
California citizen with alibrary card
Eloy (13:20):
I'm gonna have to get my library card.
think I lost
Jeff (13:23):
right.
Eloy (13:24):
it.
you've talked about a lift, alot of different partnerships.
how do most learners findCoursera?
Jeff (13:31):
You know, most of them go onto Google and they search for
something.
Usually it's like, I want a jobin data science or online course
in, you know, leadership or UXdesign.
So most of the traffic comes toCoursera through search engine
optimization, and we don'tusually pay for ads, but.
And a lot of, a lot of thesecrets is this eloi.
It turns out when you havecourses from the top
(13:53):
universities and businesses,your search results rank really,
really high.
'cause people trust them so thatthe, the, they call it
authority.
So the authority of our partnersreally helps people find us
pretty easily.
So most people come through theinternet, but you know, in
Coursera for business, those areemployees who are introduced to
Coursera by their employers.
In campuses, the students areintroduced to Coursera by their
(14:16):
teachers, and then ingovernments, you know, a citizen
in California could beintroduced to Coursera through
the California State Librarysystem.
Eloy (14:24):
All right.
Well, let's, let's talk abouthow Coursera is harnessing the
power of, generative ai or g i,a lot has been talked about
since the launch of chat G p tearlier this year.
How are you and your teamthinking about incorporating g a
(14:44):
I into your platform, and whatdoes this mean for your
learners?
Jeff (14:48):
we were sort of tracking.
This whole generative AIevolution for, it's been around
for a few years.
I think 2017 Google wrote thisseminal paper about this new,
neural network technology aroundattention, which is a way of
kind of emphasizing certainparts of this neural network.
And, and that sort of gave riseto generative ai.
(15:08):
I mean, honestly, my team waskind of watching it.
They were saying, Hey, Jeff, youknow, pay attention.
And I was kind of payingattention.
I'll be totally honest.
It wasn't until chat G p t, youknow, G P T 3.5 was a big
advance and they made it public.
And I got my own account inearly December and I freaked
out.
I was just like, as an Englishmajor, I mean, it's crazy.
(15:30):
Eloy, right?
This is the first time in mylife.
I could like talk to a computerand it was really amazing, like
stunning to me.
I mean, there was, Arthur ClarkI think said, any technology
sufficiently advanced isindistinguishable from magic.
And that's how I felt.
I was like, this is like, thisis magic and now not perfect.
(15:51):
It has flaws, it has, has risks,et cetera.
We could talk about all that,but I was just stunned by the
capability.
So what we did is we immediatelyconvened a team in early
January.
And we identified a fewdifferent ways that that AI was
gonna impact Coursera.
And they've all been basicallyturning out to be true.
But like to a large degree,situational awareness is the
first thing that a CEO's gottado when, when things are
(16:13):
changing.
So, so first of all, we're like,wow, this could change the way
that people learn.
So having a personal learningassistant who is.
Totally personalized andinteractive.
And so it's, it's like everylearner having their own tutor.
We call it coach.
it's very, very cool and othersare starting to do this as well.
(16:34):
I think we'll have many of thesethings around, but it really is
extraordinary how, how,effective the personalized
learning can be.
So that's number one.
It's kind of personalized,interactive learning for the end
learner.
Uh, number two is somethingwe're building called Course
Builder.
This is helping our partners.
Generate courses and updatecourses and generate new audio
(16:55):
and video and text and things.
So the ability to generatecontent, although you gotta make
sure that it's not, uh,hallucinating and that the
factuality is high.
The ability to, to generatecontent is being, you know,
radically transformed.
Just not just language, butsound and images as well.
That's the second big thing.
The third, which we are, I'mflying out to Indonesia and
(17:15):
Thailand.
In two weeks.
We're announcing globaltranslation of 2000 courses
into, in the next 60 days, intoseven different languages.
But effectively, AI willeliminate.
The language barrier forasynchronous learning online.
So basically any learner inalmost any language will be able
(17:36):
to learn from any professor inor or instructor in almost any
language.
So that will be super cool.
And then a fourth one is that weneed more AI content on the
platform.
So a lot more people are comingto Coursera to learn about AI
'cause it's such a hot topic.
The fifth one is that jobs arechanging.
So lots of people's jobs,especially in marketing, in
(17:59):
legal, anyone who works withlanguage, computer programmers,
jobs are gonna be completelytransformed.
So they're gonna need to getre-skilled.
And then the final one, I guessthis is number six, is that we,
at Coursera, we're retooling theway we do our work so that you
know, we're putting in moreautomated processes utilizing
this new generative AI to.
Whether that's writing,marketing copy, or for me, I'm
(18:20):
using it for decision making.
I make a lot of decisions notasking, you know, I'm not just
going with whatever the G P Tsays, but I have it as a thought
partner and I'm, I'm kind oftalking to chat t all day long
in my job.
Eloy (18:34):
Well, I'm gonna date myself, but I'm having visions
of Hal.
Jeff (18:39):
Well, you know, luckily I can still, currently, I can
still turn it off.
The problem with Hal is,
Eloy (18:47):
Oh my goodness.
All right, well, um, let's talkabout.
Your learning platform manyleaders in traditional higher
education and many policymakers, I know certainly many
here in California andthroughout the country, they
still raise doubts.
About the use of online learningand the use of technology and
(19:10):
education, what do you say topeople who still doubt the power
of technology to increase accessto quality learning?
Jeff (19:19):
the first thing that I would say is when you have over
a hundred million people, 80% ofthem are not in the United
States.
almost 50% of them are women.
And in our STEM enrollments,something like, uh, 38% are
women, which is not 50%, butit's definitely been climbing.
The numbers don't lie.
(19:40):
I mean, the numbers just don'tlie.
We're, we're now a publiclytraded company worth a couple
billion dollars because turnsout we're really meeting
people's needs, you know, frompeople around the world.
Now, it's not to say it'sperfect, and I think where,
where I, where I do say, well,you know, you do have a point is
that, you know, technology willnot be able to do, especially
(20:01):
for younger people, I meanadolescents and, and anyone K
through 12, in my view.
Having, you know, been theremyself and my, and raising three
daughters who are now all intheir, late twenties, early
thirties.
A lot of learning is social.
So, no, I think it would bedystopian and horrendous.
And we saw a taste of it duringCovid if our younger people went
(20:22):
to school and it was alltechnology.
that's not the kind learningthat we need to do.
We need a lot more sociallearning, but for working adults
who are looking for a betterjob.
Who wanna learn some skills to,you know, advance their careers
and, and get more opportunityand pay, uh, technology, online
learning.
And, and some of these advanceshas been, just absolutely
(20:44):
unequivocally, demonstrablyeffective, not perfect, and not
in every single domain, but justoverwhelmingly effective in, uh,
providing incredibleopportunities for.
Tens of millions of people.
So, yeah, I, so this kind of aquestion of what, what role
should it play and what roleshould it not play?
I mean, it will not replacehumans, but boy does it
(21:05):
certainly provide a lot moreaccess to high quality
education.
Eloy (21:08):
Well, I, I think you made the point here, which is it's
not about replacing theexisting.
Pedagogy and the existinglearning for a whole host of
people who, who have the abilityto access a good residential,
traditional, higher educationexperience.
But it expands the myriad ofopportunities for people who are
(21:29):
in different parts, in points intheir life, who wanna access
knowledge, who wanna accessskills.
And so I think, I think that'swhere it plays an important
role.
And of course, on the flip side,I spend a lot of time talking
about, How traditional highereducation isn't perfect either,
and it's not built everylearner.
(21:50):
So I think the more options andthe more opportunities we have
to personalize learning forevery individual, I think the
better off we, we will be in
Jeff (22:01):
Yeah, I think it's a, it's a really good point.
I mean, if you look attechnology, say with, with
computers.
When they first were created,the computer sat on a desk and
it could do certain things.
I mean, what it did really wellwas Lotus 1 2 3, like the
spreadsheet was the killer appof the personal computer back in
the, in the eighties.
but as technology startsmorphing into phones, it starts
(22:21):
getting into different elementsof our lives.
And, and, and the way that youcan use it expands.
You hit on something I think isreally important.
Traditional education has servedcertain populations really well
and really effectively.
Eloy (22:33):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (22:34):
But it has failed to serve an awful lot of populations that
really need and deserve to, tohave similar kinds of
opportunities.
And so especially for, you know,working people, people with
lower levels of education,people who have less money, I.
Who can't afford to quit theirjob.
'cause sometimes they'reworking, two or three don't have
(22:55):
a car, or maybe their spousetakes their car so they don't
have good access totransportation and they're
caring for other family members,so they can't show up at a
campus at a certain point intime.
I mean, yeah, technology is notperfect, but the current higher
education system is not servingeverybody perfectly either.
And I think that together, youknow, technology with, with some
of the better parts oftraditional education can serve
(23:17):
a lot more people a lot moreeffectively.
Well, I certainly agree withthat point.
so let me, let me pose thisquestion to you as we begin to
close, and I appreciate youtaking all this time, outta your
busy schedule to, to talk withus.
But where do you see Courseragoing over the next five years,
(23:38):
given all the technologyadvances that you've seen?
it's getting harder and harderto predict because like you
said, the technology is comingfaster and faster.
Clearly AI will be a big part ofthat future, but, you know, ai,
I see that much more as anenabler, uh, and potentially a
threat.
It's something that we have tokind of deal with.
It could make it an opportunityor else it'll be a threat, but
(23:58):
it is definitely a change thisyear.
But when I think about where weneed to go as a company, I think
about, well, who, who do we needto serve?
I'm, I'm really excited aboutthe way we're doing the
translations.
I think we can serve a moreglobal population.
And it sounds very, Perhaps, youknow, basic, but obviously
having the content in a languagethat people can speak, that's
(24:21):
pretty important foraccessibility.
Having payment systems, youknow, not everybody uses credit
cards and, and so.
Being more accessible to peoplearound the world is a big part
of that.
And that has to do with languageand affordability and, and, and,
and payments.
It also includes working throughinstitutions like governments
and campuses and businesses toprovide that kinda learning
support.
So greater global access is, isa major thing.
(24:45):
I like to have, you know,hundreds of millions of
learners, not just a hundred andwhatever million.
Now, another major focus isgonna be connecting learning to
job opportunities.
if you have a college degree andyou have a nice long work
experience link, LinkedIn worksgreat
Eloy (25:01):
Right?
Jeff (25:01):
if you don't have a college degree and you wanna
switch careers into somethingthat pays better, that's not
easy.
It's like, well, you don't havea college degree and you don't
have any LinkedIn.
How do I know if I should hireyou or not?
And people talk aboutskills-based hiring, which is
really important to afford moreopportunities to people.
How do you do that?
And what we're trying to do, wejust announced Coursera hiring
(25:22):
solutions in April, is now allof the learners on Coursera can
build personal, sort of skillprofiles that they can show to
an employer.
And we can allow employers tofind people who have skills,
even if those people don't havea lot of work experience in a
college degree.
Another piece of what we'redoing and really pushing on is.
(25:44):
This idea of bridging industryand higher education.
So what higher education doesreally well is college degrees
and that's awesome, but youknow, we gotta make them more
affordable and flexible.
What industry has done reallywell, and it's really
turbocharging, a lot of ourconsumer segment are these
professional certificates andthese are 5,000 hours.
(26:05):
What we're seeing globally, andit's very exciting, is.
We are working with the a c E,the American Council on
Education.
They're doing creditrecommendations for these
industry professionalcertificates, and then colleges
are implementing these as careerelectives in their for credit
curricula.
(26:25):
So another major sort of trendfor us is gonna be bridging the
gap between industry and highereducation, via what you might
call career electives.
These industry professionalcertificates that get
integrated.
Count as credit for priorlearning, you know, towards
college degrees.
So that's another.
And then finally, we talked alittle bit about ai, but clearly
as an enabler, AI will be a bigpart of, of what we do in terms
(26:49):
of personalized interactivelearning with personalized
feedback course contentgeneration for our partners.
and then love the jobstransitions have to do as well
with job opportunities.
Like how can we help people getaccess to the new jobs that'll
be created and deal with some ofthe disruption that's gonna be
coming.
Eloy (27:06):
Well, I think those are all great things to look forward
to, especially when you thinkabout how to better support
learners who wanna connect to,to those jobs So, um, Jeff, I
really appreciate you taking thetime to tell us about what
you're doing, to tell us moreabout Coursera.
So thanks for being with me hereon the Rain.
Jeff (27:26):
Thank you so much, elo.
I really appreciate it.
Eloy (27:29):
All right.
Well, you've been listening tomy conversation w with Jeff as
we've been talking about, uh,the evolution of Coursera and
where they're going into thefuture.
Lots of exciting stuff.
So if you enjoyed this episode,hit the like button.
Uh, let me know your thoughtsand the comments, uh, about
Coursera, about skills-basedhiring, about the use of ga I.
(27:52):
If you are following us on thisYouTube channel, subscribe and
continue to follow us on yourfavorite podcast platform.
Thanks for joining us,everybody, and we'll see you
soon.
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