May 7, 2024 • 30 mins
Unlock the full potential within the millions of Americans who have stepped away from higher education. Join the conversation with Tara Crews, the CEO of ReUp Education, as we dissect the multifaceted hurdles that keep 41 million working learners from completing their degrees. This episode isn't just about understanding the barriers; it's about forging pathways to reengagement and success. We're peeling back the layers of financial strain, time poverty, and the longing for a sense of belonging to reveal how these factors intertwine, creating a complex challenge for students, institutions, and policymakers alike.
Our candid talk traverses from the personal plights of individuals to the sweeping implications for state economies, inviting you to consider how re-educating learners ripples out to benefit families and communities. With a spotlight on the innovative strategies like New Jersey's centralized support system, we scrutinize the role of artificial intelligence in education, advocating for a delicate balance between technology and the irreplaceable human touch. Prepare to be enlightened on the transformative power of re-engaging learners, with insights that could reshape the landscape of higher education and the workforce.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley, and welcome back
to the Rant, a podcast where wepull back the curtain and break
down the people, the policiesand the politics of our higher
education system.
In this episode, we focus onre-engaging working learners who
exited higher education and didnot complete a degree or a
credential.
For a myriad of reasons, manylearners have left higher
(00:43):
education, whether they nolonger believe in the value of
higher education, or they'reworking, raising a family or
just trying to make ends meet,working multiple jobs.
These workers, these workinglearners, are essential to the
new economy in cities and statesthroughout the country, in
(01:06):
cities and states throughout thecountry.
Joining me to talk about how tore-engage these lost learners
is Tara Cruz, ceo of Re-UpEducation.
Tara is a pioneer in the somecollege no degree space and she
and her team have been workinghard to get this demographic of
learner back into college andre-engage in the economy.
So, with that backdrop, let mewelcome Tara to the podcast.
(01:29):
Tara, welcome to the Rant.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thanks, eli, happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Well, it's great to have you.
Thanks for taking some time outof your busy schedule to be
with us.
This is the topic that a lot ofpeople are talking about
re-engaging working learners.
Particularly since the pandemic, there's been a lot of
consternation about enrollmentdecline, about the number of
learners out there who have somecollege, no degree, trying to
(01:55):
get them re-engaged.
But before we get into thatwork, let me pause and just ask
you to tell us a little bitabout the history and the
mission of REAP Education, andhow has your organization's
focus changed since you becamethe CEO?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So REAP was founded about eight years ago and from
its very founding it was focusedin on this population and let's
just like ground everybody alittle bit on, like how big of a
problem this really is.
We have 41 million people withsome college, no credential Wow,
Put that into context.
Like one in six adults in theUS have some college and no
(02:35):
credential.
The problem is massive.
In fact.
Can you name any one examplewhere there is one in six
Americans who do not have anorganization who advocates on
their path through policies orthrough change, whatever?
Rehabilitation Founding wasfocused in on that from the
earliest beginnings.
For the first six years, theorganization really made great
(02:58):
strides and spent every ounce ofenergy and effort they had in
figuring out how we find theselearners through partnerships
with our colleges anduniversities.
Engage them, find them whereverthey are in the world, engage
them, begin the conversationabout what it would take to get
them back when are they in theirlife, Build intent, help them
(03:21):
get back into school and becauseknowing that most institutions
are actually not great atsupporting this population,
continue to support them all theway until graduation.
Somebody did that for a littleover six years.
I joined just a little over twoyears ago, and since that time
we've really put the pedal allthe way to the metal.
(03:44):
Here we focused in on theschools that are struggling the
most community colleges andCoria Regional Publics a little
(04:07):
bit about and that is a segmentthat has allowed us to achieve
scale that would have otherwisebeen not feasible even just a
couple of years ago.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So you mentioned the number 41 million 41 million
learners throughout this countrywho didn't finish their
credential or their degree.
41 million learners who reallycan't reach their full potential
in the economy.
That's a staggering number.
In your work, what are youfinding are the reasons that
(04:34):
these learners stop theireducation?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I'll answer that question and I'll actually
follow up with the question Iwant people to ask and I'll
actually follow up with thequestion I want people to ask.
Oftentimes, why people stompdown can vary wildly.
If you just ask people rightout of the gate, they'll say
finances, but oftentimes whenyou do the digging, you find
that it's a much more nuancedand complicated answer Finances,
because you didn't get thefinancial aid.
No, actually, I had some familyissues and I had to take a step
(05:03):
back and figure out how tosupport my family Finances
because you were struggling topay for your individual or dorm.
No, actually, I was gettingeverything paid for, but I was
working four or five jobs parttime to try to get things paid
for.
If you ask people why theystopped out, you're almost
always going to get the answerfinances.
(05:23):
And if you don't get the answerfinances, it's going to be I
didn't feel like I belonged,never find things, didn't know
what I was studying, et cetera,et cetera.
We often find it's lessrelevant why they stopped out.
It's more relevant where arethey today, first and foremost,
and what is it that ispreventing them from going back?
(05:44):
We don't actually spend a tonof time talking about what went
wrong.
We acknowledge it, whateverhappened.
It was finances it was.
You didn't feel like you belong.
You never found your community.
Whatever it is, let's talkabout what's keeping you from
going back today, and in that weessentially find three common
(06:07):
themes, and they're all likeanything here.
This is a fundamentally humanexperience or a human decision
that's intermingled with a lotof things.
Why people don't come back Timepoverty I just don't know how I
fit this in my schedule.
Number two cost, and oftentimesit's not just it's expensive.
(06:30):
I don't know how to navigatethe policies that are available
and the programs that areavailable to help me afford this
.
Will I feel alone?
Am I going to be the only 35year old in that class of 18
year olds?
Am I going to feel like I don'tbelong?
(06:50):
Am I going to feel like more,like a failure because I went
back and had not come back atall?
So the short answer to yourquestion is almost always people
say finances, but there's a lotmore in it.
We don't actually focus thatmuch on it.
We focus in on okay, talk aboutwhere you are today in your
life, and the big themes aretime, poverty, cost and sense of
(07:11):
belonging.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I certainly resonate with what you just said.
Having spent time well, havingspent over 30 years in community
colleges, you hear thosestories a lot.
You hear a lot of individualswho, for whatever reason,
stopped going either right outof high school.
I mean, I was one of thoselearners.
I went into the army right outof high school.
I didn't go into highereducation until I was 24.
(07:34):
And when I walked into thoseclassrooms at 24, even though it
was a community college, I feltlike the old guy.
I felt like you know, it tookme quite some time.
So I can see how that is such achallenge.
And, to your point, focusing onwhere they are today, not why
they left two, three, four, fiveyears ago, I think is a great
(07:56):
point.
We spend way too much timeworrying about why they left and
not enough time worrying aboutwhy they need to come back and
what they're thinking today.
So I know in my experience andI know many people across the
country saw this happening,certainly before the pandemic
(08:16):
and after the pandemic we sawmany working learners just walk
away from their higher educationinstitutions, whether it was
because of the health effects,the job loss that occurred, the
online-only options that wereavailable during the pandemic
and the lack of Wi-Fi in thesefamilies.
(08:37):
How do you re-engage theselearners?
What are some of the thingsthat you've learned to do there
at?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
RE-EP.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Education.
And when you talk to them, whatdo you find they're looking for
now?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
how do you re-engage is oftentimes the hardest part
of this we like to simply say.
We oftentimes say theselearners are hard to find,
they're hard to engage, they'rehard to enroll, and that's why a
lot of institutions and a lotof government now are just now
beginning to focus some energyand effort on it, because it's
(09:15):
been really difficult so but,that said, a few sort of secrets
or under the hood.
that's how we engage and, firstoff, we interact with them in
whatever modality makes sense.
And here's what that means.
Once we've been able to findthem and there's a whole lot of
work that just goes behind thescenes and figuring out where
(09:35):
they are, where they are, evenin the country they may have
moved anywhere where they are inlife and what's their contact
information Once we have allthose basic elements in place,
we focus on reaching out throughmultiple means of communication
.
Now, historically, highereducation has taken the approach
of well, I'm going to find youand I'm going to tell you to set
up a call with an advisor andyou're going to have to come to
(09:58):
campus.
If we're really old school andif we're really innovative, we
might let you pick up the phoneand talk to us.
That's fine if you want to getonly a tiny percentage of people
back.
What we find is, if you reallywant to engage them, you have to
engage them where they are.
And here's what that means inlike simplest and simplest sense
(10:18):
it's the working mom who iscarrying on a meeting with one
of our coaches and she istexting while she is preparing
dinner for her kids.
She is following up while she'scleaning up dishes with her
kids, she's continuing thatmeeting before her kids, after
her kids are going to bed, andshe's picking it up the next
morning.
We're engaging a largerpopulation of people because we
(10:42):
are meeting them where they arein line and communicating with
them and carrying onasynchronous meetings with them
in a way that is, let's behonest, this is how we do
everything else in our life.
Right, I can't tell you.
The last time I like carried ona whole phone conversation with
one of my family members, butman, I've already got 30 texts
today from a group chat in myfamily.
(11:02):
So that's just one example.
But we have coaches that arethere that are ready to jump on
the phone and ready to talkthrough things.
We're carrying on meetingsasynchronously to interact with
the coach and increasingly we'rebringing new technology to bear
that allows the learners tonavigate resources not just
(11:23):
through our messaging and ourhuman coaching, but also through
technology.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
When you engage them and you start talking about
reengaging in higher education,what do they tell you they're
looking for?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Oftentimes it boils down to really two things.
I want a better place in life,Like I want to be more
financially secure.
These are workforce andfinancially minded people.
I don't know that we've had asingle person come back who is
purely studying for the purposeof education alone.
That doesn't mean that theydon't care, but that's not what
(11:57):
they say first and foremost.
So how is this going to improvemy life?
How is this going to improve mybetter job?
Interestingly enough, thoughalmost equally common, I want to
be a good example for somebodyin my life.
Oftentimes it's my kids, butthose are the two primary
motivators.
I want to be a good sampleexample for them.
(12:19):
I want them to have a betterlife and I want greater, greater
security for myself, either injust job security or financial
security, and we we really leaninto working with people on that
and encourage people toactually keep that as their
North Star, because you knowthis isn't something that you
(12:41):
get immediate gratification on.
Going back to school is a longjourney and we try to actually
identify whatever that NorthStar is for that learner and
then remind them of that andpull them back to that every
time things get hard, because,let's be honest, it's going to
get hard.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Right?
No, it's going to get hard,Right?
No, it's going to get hard.
You mentioned that governmentslocal governments, state
governments, and there's evenbeen talk at the national level
about this demographic oflearner.
When you talk to officials ingovernment, whether local
policymakers or statepolicymakers, how do they think
(13:18):
about that lost investment?
Because at 41 million learnerswith some college, no degree,
that's a lot of public dollarsthat went into their education
and they're getting very littleback on that return on
investment.
So how do you engage theseleaders and talk to them about
that lost investment?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
So, first off, I've yet to meet one who actually
understands it as a lostinvestment.
It's one of the first things wesay.
An average state looms $200million to $300 million a year
in subsidies for people who willquit in that given year, and
our team is actually working onmore and more sophisticated ways
(14:00):
to calculate this loss ofinvestment.
One of the first things I saywhen I'm sitting down with the
legislator or governor's officewhatever is I, I I named that
number for them for theirindividual state, and usually I
get a little bit of like a sitback in the chair, cross the
arms of oh wow.
So, first off, many of themdon't think about that and we're
(14:21):
trying to do that advocacy worknow um, because I think there
hasn't been enough governmentintervention, because they don't
understand the scope and scaleof the problem at the state
level.
That's enough.
I think we pretty quickly tryto help them go from risk to
opportunity.
Yes, you've lost a lot ofinvestment in this population of
learners.
(14:41):
Yes, this learner learners byand large tend to be Pell
eligible, which is a goodindicator of the poverty level,
and about 50% of what we see isin that Pell eligible break.
But let's talk about theopportunity.
These are not risk.
This is net opportunity forthem, those learners, and for
(15:03):
you and your state.
These are people who are part ofthe way there.
You've got workforce gapsCommunity college they may be
six to nine months away fromgetting a degree that can help
fill those workforce gaps.
You've got tax shortages inyour state.
These people are anywhere fromsix to 12 months away from
having a better wage and payinghigher taxes.
(15:24):
You're worried about people inyour state who are struggling to
make it mine.
You get the pattern here.
So, oftentimes we're doing theadvocacy work because there
isn't that organization thatgoes out and advocates on their
behalf.
Our first conversations are youhave significant lost
investment here, but that alsorepresents a fast path to
(15:47):
positive ROI in terms of impacton lives, impact on state
coffers, impact on workforce,and that's a net opportunity for
you overall.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
That is such an important conversation.
In my day job at CollegeFutures Foundation, we're
launching into a return oninvestment survey of all 292
public private institutions herein California and the ROI is
very dependent on completion.
Institutions that have a lot oflearners with some college, no
(16:23):
degree that didn't finish, thatROI is just not the same.
So on multiple levels, thislack of credential, this lack of
completion, is hurting thereturn on investment, not only
for states, but for institutionsand for learners and their
families themselves.
So I think it's such animportant piece that I hope our
(16:43):
policymakers spend much moretime, because it is a huge loss
of economic value for ourcountry.
So you mentioned previouslytechnology and the use of
technology in reengaginglearners.
I know that you rely ontechnology to stay engaged with
these learners that you'reserving.
(17:05):
How do you see the impact of AIaffecting the way that you
support the learners that you'reengaged with?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
there's a lot of opportunities with AI, and this
is where I'll get on my soapboxfor a minute.
I think we've got there's a fewthings.
First is I think we're in alittle bit of an AI hysteria
right now that everybody thinksAI is going to absolutely solve
all problems, and it's true, itcan be enormously beneficial, or
(17:36):
it can be incredibly beneficial, but at the same time, I think
there's a couple things that I Iwatch out and then I'm going to
talk.
I'm talking about a couple watchouts and a couple areas where I
see opportunity first is look,we have 10 million natural
language recorded interactionswith learners and we know which
ones led to positive resultsenrollment and and In some ways
(17:59):
we are like primed to make useof some of the AI and we've done
some testing on it.
It is not so far along that itcan navigate highly nuanced
regulatory and ethicalconversation At least we're not
seeing it yet these complexdecisions.
We need to be careful aboutwhat we tell learners.
We need to always give themagency, always give them choice,
(18:23):
not make false promises.
And anybody who is working touse ai as like a hammer to solve
this.
I would caution that these arepeople that we're interacting
with and we.
Ai is not.
It's not smart enough to do ityet.
Here's the future.
It might be.
Second people we're seeing thatour learners want to have more
(18:46):
ways to interact with technology, that when you need a human,
you need a human, and when wewant a human, we want a human.
So one of the reverseconversations and watchouts with
AI is that we end up losingpeople along the way who just
want to talk to someone.
They just need somebody to help.
(19:07):
In fact, in an AI world, humancontact carries me to a bigger
premium.
This is what I even tell my owninternal people or my own
internal team.
This is why I even tell my owninternal people or my own
internal team, if you have anytype of premium status on an
airline, you highly value thatability to pick up a phone and
talk to somebody and not wait onthe wait line for 20 or 30
(19:29):
minutes.
That's right.
Everybody should have that fornavigating their education
journey.
Everybody should be able topick up a phone and navigate
through.
If you're lucky enough to buy ahouse, this is the second
biggest investment you'll makein your life and there's no real
estate broker or there's nomortgage broker or there's no
all these things.
Everybody deserves a real humanwhen they need it to answer
(19:50):
their questions and help themnavigate processes.
So high level on AI, it's notthere yet to be able to just
like hammer, solve a problem andanybody who's trying to deploy
it careful.
Second, in an AI world, humansare becoming even more valuable
in terms of like those realconnection moments.
That said, look, we're using AIadversity every part of the
(20:14):
business.
Right now.
We're looking for those firstfew messages that interact with
learners.
We know that some machinelearning generated responses can
speed up connection speed toresponding.
Those first messages are reallyimportant.
That's where AI is like, reallybeneficial.
We know that a lot of ourlearners come to us with very
(20:34):
nuanced questions about tryingto navigate specific policies
and things at an institution.
We built a massive knowledgemanagement system for every
single institution we have andwe're deploying AI to help our
coaches and help our technologybe able to find answers for them
very quickly.
Third, we're constantly lookingfor new ways to engage new
(20:56):
people, new populations withinour database, and AI has
actually been very helpful inhelping us find new messaging
and test new messaging muchquicker than what we would have
done in the past.
So I think people are a littleoverblown on how fast AI is
going to change education, butthere's a ton of intermediates,
(21:19):
oftentimes unsexy applications,that are moving the needle for
us internally some similaritiesand some differences that you
(21:42):
find state by state in how thesedisengaged learners, these lost
learners, are showing up.
There's actually far moresimilarities than differences.
In fact, I think generally whatwe find is with this population
of learners, whether they'reliving in New Jersey, they're in
Massachusetts or they're inMichigan, they're in North
Carolina, they're in Texas,they're all Michigan, they're in
North Carolina, they're inTexas, they're all in a sort of
(22:02):
they're all kind of commonalityin how they're approaching the
conversation.
Most of them are activelyemployed today.
People who aren't employed arefocused on more base level needs
and usually aren't starting theconversation with us.
They are employed today.
They likely had significantwage gain during pandemic.
(22:23):
And for a moment they didn'tthink about education, because
they just saw such animprovement in how much money
was coming in the door and theirbank accounts maybe were the
largest they'd ever been intheir life.
That for a moment they didn't.
But now they're starting tofeel the pain right again and
they're really starting to comeback to okay, I can't have that
(22:46):
hourly job at making burritos.
I'm going to have to and needto find a pathway to something,
something better and somethingmore sustainable.
That said, like with most of oursociety right now, there's some
skepticism of higher education.
I find that there is less withthis population than the
(23:08):
population as a whole.
These are oftentimes people whosee the difference between the
person at their job who has thebachelor's degree or has the
associate's degree or has theassociate's degree, and
themselves.
That is not like that.
That's very obvious to them.
So when you're talking aboutyou know when you're talking to
(23:29):
a group of people who maybe wereless motivated during pandemic
but are now getting moremotivated, now they see the
value.
They may question highereducation, like in general's
value, but they know the valueof that credential and opening
up that next job and that betterum and that better pay, the
other.
The other common thing I wouldsay, though, beyond just like
(23:49):
behavior and characteristics, isand this is especially
important for policymakersthey're still where they started
.
91 to 95% of them are still instate.
So for policymakers who arethinking about dollar for dollar
impact, roi and are worriedabout brain drain and investing
all this money in these peoplewho go here and go somewhere
(24:11):
else to actually make a living,this population has roots.
This population stayed evenwithout the better job and
they're pretty well rooted intotheir community.
So an investment in there is amuch better investment in your
state than maybe you might beused to or questioning as a
(24:31):
policymaker.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
So, as we begin to wrap up, let me ask you this
two-part question.
So, as we begin to wrap up, letme ask you this two-part
question.
Based on what you've seen goingon around the country, what
would you tell policymakers?
Is good policy to re-engagethese learners?
Is there something that you'veseen in one of the states that
you're working in that you thinkreally is lifting up this
(24:54):
population of learners?
Really is lifting up thispopulation of learners?
And then my last question wouldbe if you run into a learner on
the street who's trying tore-engage in higher education,
what advice do you have for them?
Speaker 2 (25:07):
For the state policy.
It's simple.
The reason we aren't makingbetter traction on this
population is that, for mostschools, they don't have the
resources to support them andthey are not incentivized to
support this population is that,for most schools, they don't
have the resources to supportthem and they are not
incentivized to support thispopulation.
In fact, if you were to getsome of the best policy out
there for individualinstitutions doing this work and
(25:27):
you were to really narrow thatin, it would mean only serving
around 6% to 7% of the entire 41million.
The way to do this if you're astate policymaker is you need to
centralize the data andcentralize the population
learner into one system withinyour state.
In the case of new jersey newjersey, we know, has about 700
(25:51):
000 some college now credentialwe now have a centralized
database of 220 000 of of thoseNew Jerseyans.
We have their contactinformation, we have their zip
code and we are outreaching themand we are getting them back to
not just the original schoolbut any school in the state.
That only works if you have acentral system and the
(26:12):
individual schools are not doingthe work themselves, because if
they do the work themselves,they're only going to benefit
themselves are not doing thework themselves, because if they
do the work themselves, they'reonly going to benefit
themselves.
Anything disparaging to theseindividual schools, it's just
practical of how they have torun an operation.
You centralize it in the state.
Nobody cares where theyactually end up going, because
everybody ends up benefiting.
You want to make an impact,centralize this within your
(26:35):
state.
In terms of advice on the streetit's interesting you asked this
I ran into two people recentlyOne with my hairdresser who
actually went to a school thatwe work with.
The other person was at mylocal hardware store and was
mixing the paint that I wasusing to paint my office and I'm
(26:56):
not at today.
I gave two pieces of advice todifferent different To my
hairdresser.
I asked her if she was happy.
I asked her why she quit.
I just said well, you'resitting there cutting my hair.
I was just trying to understandwhy she wasn't life.
She felt like she's in a reallygood place in life.
She loves what she's doing.
She went back and got adifferent credential.
(27:16):
She makes a good living.
He's where she's going to.
My advice to her was that'sawesome, like it'd be with no
events, and it was to say hey,we work with your school.
If you ever change your mind,we're here to support you.
It's important that not all somepeople have found a pen absent
education and that's okay.
(27:36):
And for my person who wasmixing and paint him and I
actually talked for about 15, 20minutes he's struggling.
He went to a public university.
He went to a community college.
Many years later.
For him the challenge was as anadult, and now an adult in his
forties, he was having a hardtime navigating the complexity
(27:59):
of higher education.
My advice to him was you've gotto find someone on campus who
can help you navigate the system.
You've been out for a while.
It's complicated, let's just behonest.
It's complicated to go highereducation, especially when
you're older and you've been outfor some time.
Finding that person who cannavigate those systems it's
(28:23):
going to be critical.
In his case we didn't actuallywork with that individual school
, but I actually connected himto the advising on campus and
say they're not oriented quitein the same way of coaches, but
they are still there to supportyou.
Before you ever go back andjust sort of throw yourself back
in, make sure you have asupport system around you,
somebody on campus and somebodyin your life, who can support
(28:47):
you and encourage you whenthings get hard, because
inevitably they do.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
They certainly do.
And with that great piece ofadvice for learners all across
this country looking to improvetheir lives, looking to get back
into higher education, I wantto say thanks, tara, for joining
us here on the rant.
I really appreciate the workthat you're engaged in.
I hope many people hear yourmessage.
Many state leaders hear yourmessage.
(29:14):
We really do need to re-engagethose 41 million learners, not
just for the sake of theircurrent situation, but for the
sake of their families goingforward, for the sake of the
debt that they might be carrying.
So, for all those reasons andthe economies of their
communities, their cities, theirstates, this is a really
important issue.
So thanks for being with us hereon the Rant.
(29:35):
Thank you, ami All right.
Thanks everybody for joining ushere on the Rant.
Thank you, ami All right.
Thanks everybody for joining ushere on the Rant.
I've been talking with DerekCruz, ceo of ReUp Education, and
ReUp Education is a supporterof the Rant podcast, so very,
very thankful to ReUp Educationfor their support.
If you enjoyed this episode,hit the like button, continue to
(29:56):
follow us on this YouTubechannel or follow us on your
favorite podcast platform.
Thanks for joining us everybody.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
And we'll see you again soon.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz-Oakley, and welcome back
to the Rant, a podcast where wepull back the curtain and break
down the people, the policiesand the politics of our higher
education system.
In this episode, we focus onre-engaging working learners who
exited higher education and didnot complete a degree or a
credential.
For a myriad of reasons, manylearners have left higher
(00:43):
education, whether they nolonger believe in the value of
higher education, or they'reworking, raising a family or
just trying to make ends meet,working multiple jobs.
These workers, these workinglearners, are essential to the
new economy in cities and statesthroughout the country, in
(01:06):
cities and states throughout thecountry.
Joining me to talk about how tore-engage these lost learners
is Tara Cruz, ceo of Re-UpEducation.
Tara is a pioneer in the somecollege no degree space and she
and her team have been workinghard to get this demographic of
learner back into college andre-engage in the economy.
So, with that backdrop, let mewelcome Tara to the podcast.
(01:29):
Tara, welcome to the Rant.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thanks, eli, happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Well, it's great to have you.
Thanks for taking some time outof your busy schedule to be
with us.
This is the topic that a lot ofpeople are talking about
re-engaging working learners.
Particularly since the pandemic, there's been a lot of
consternation about enrollmentdecline, about the number of
learners out there who have somecollege, no degree, trying to
(01:55):
get them re-engaged.
But before we get into thatwork, let me pause and just ask
you to tell us a little bitabout the history and the
mission of REAP Education, andhow has your organization's
focus changed since you becamethe CEO?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So REAP was founded about eight years ago and from
its very founding it was focusedin on this population and let's
just like ground everybody alittle bit on, like how big of a
problem this really is.
We have 41 million people withsome college, no credential Wow,
Put that into context.
Like one in six adults in theUS have some college and no
(02:35):
credential.
The problem is massive.
In fact.
Can you name any one examplewhere there is one in six
Americans who do not have anorganization who advocates on
their path through policies orthrough change, whatever?
Rehabilitation Founding wasfocused in on that from the
earliest beginnings.
For the first six years, theorganization really made great
(02:58):
strides and spent every ounce ofenergy and effort they had in
figuring out how we find theselearners through partnerships
with our colleges anduniversities.
Engage them, find them whereverthey are in the world, engage
them, begin the conversationabout what it would take to get
them back when are they in theirlife, Build intent, help them
(03:21):
get back into school and becauseknowing that most institutions
are actually not great atsupporting this population,
continue to support them all theway until graduation.
Somebody did that for a littleover six years.
I joined just a little over twoyears ago, and since that time
we've really put the pedal allthe way to the metal.
(03:44):
Here we focused in on theschools that are struggling the
most community colleges andCoria Regional Publics a little
(04:07):
bit about and that is a segmentthat has allowed us to achieve
scale that would have otherwisebeen not feasible even just a
couple of years ago.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So you mentioned the number 41 million 41 million
learners throughout this countrywho didn't finish their
credential or their degree.
41 million learners who reallycan't reach their full potential
in the economy.
That's a staggering number.
In your work, what are youfinding are the reasons that
(04:34):
these learners stop theireducation?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I'll answer that question and I'll actually
follow up with the question Iwant people to ask and I'll
actually follow up with thequestion I want people to ask.
Oftentimes, why people stompdown can vary wildly.
If you just ask people rightout of the gate, they'll say
finances, but oftentimes whenyou do the digging, you find
that it's a much more nuancedand complicated answer Finances,
because you didn't get thefinancial aid.
No, actually, I had some familyissues and I had to take a step
(05:03):
back and figure out how tosupport my family Finances
because you were struggling topay for your individual or dorm.
No, actually, I was gettingeverything paid for, but I was
working four or five jobs parttime to try to get things paid
for.
If you ask people why theystopped out, you're almost
always going to get the answerfinances.
(05:23):
And if you don't get the answerfinances, it's going to be I
didn't feel like I belonged,never find things, didn't know
what I was studying, et cetera,et cetera.
We often find it's lessrelevant why they stopped out.
It's more relevant where arethey today, first and foremost,
and what is it that ispreventing them from going back?
(05:44):
We don't actually spend a tonof time talking about what went
wrong.
We acknowledge it, whateverhappened.
It was finances it was.
You didn't feel like you belong.
You never found your community.
Whatever it is, let's talkabout what's keeping you from
going back today, and in that weessentially find three common
(06:07):
themes, and they're all likeanything here.
This is a fundamentally humanexperience or a human decision
that's intermingled with a lotof things.
Why people don't come back Timepoverty I just don't know how I
fit this in my schedule.
Number two cost, and oftentimesit's not just it's expensive.
(06:30):
I don't know how to navigatethe policies that are available
and the programs that areavailable to help me afford this
.
Will I feel alone?
Am I going to be the only 35year old in that class of 18
year olds?
Am I going to feel like I don'tbelong?
(06:50):
Am I going to feel like more,like a failure because I went
back and had not come back atall?
So the short answer to yourquestion is almost always people
say finances, but there's a lotmore in it.
We don't actually focus thatmuch on it.
We focus in on okay, talk aboutwhere you are today in your
life, and the big themes aretime, poverty, cost and sense of
(07:11):
belonging.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I certainly resonate with what you just said.
Having spent time well, havingspent over 30 years in community
colleges, you hear thosestories a lot.
You hear a lot of individualswho, for whatever reason,
stopped going either right outof high school.
I mean, I was one of thoselearners.
I went into the army right outof high school.
I didn't go into highereducation until I was 24.
(07:34):
And when I walked into thoseclassrooms at 24, even though it
was a community college, I feltlike the old guy.
I felt like you know, it tookme quite some time.
So I can see how that is such achallenge.
And, to your point, focusing onwhere they are today, not why
they left two, three, four, fiveyears ago, I think is a great
(07:56):
point.
We spend way too much timeworrying about why they left and
not enough time worrying aboutwhy they need to come back and
what they're thinking today.
So I know in my experience andI know many people across the
country saw this happening,certainly before the pandemic
(08:16):
and after the pandemic we sawmany working learners just walk
away from their higher educationinstitutions, whether it was
because of the health effects,the job loss that occurred, the
online-only options that wereavailable during the pandemic
and the lack of Wi-Fi in thesefamilies.
(08:37):
How do you re-engage theselearners?
What are some of the thingsthat you've learned to do there
at?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
RE-EP.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Education.
And when you talk to them, whatdo you find they're looking for
now?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
how do you re-engage is oftentimes the hardest part
of this we like to simply say.
We oftentimes say theselearners are hard to find,
they're hard to engage, they'rehard to enroll, and that's why a
lot of institutions and a lotof government now are just now
beginning to focus some energyand effort on it, because it's
(09:15):
been really difficult so but,that said, a few sort of secrets
or under the hood.
that's how we engage and, firstoff, we interact with them in
whatever modality makes sense.
And here's what that means.
Once we've been able to findthem and there's a whole lot of
work that just goes behind thescenes and figuring out where
(09:35):
they are, where they are, evenin the country they may have
moved anywhere where they are inlife and what's their contact
information Once we have allthose basic elements in place,
we focus on reaching out throughmultiple means of communication
.
Now, historically, highereducation has taken the approach
of well, I'm going to find youand I'm going to tell you to set
up a call with an advisor andyou're going to have to come to
(09:58):
campus.
If we're really old school andif we're really innovative, we
might let you pick up the phoneand talk to us.
That's fine if you want to getonly a tiny percentage of people
back.
What we find is, if you reallywant to engage them, you have to
engage them where they are.
And here's what that means inlike simplest and simplest sense
(10:18):
it's the working mom who iscarrying on a meeting with one
of our coaches and she istexting while she is preparing
dinner for her kids.
She is following up while she'scleaning up dishes with her
kids, she's continuing thatmeeting before her kids, after
her kids are going to bed, andshe's picking it up the next
morning.
We're engaging a largerpopulation of people because we
(10:42):
are meeting them where they arein line and communicating with
them and carrying onasynchronous meetings with them
in a way that is, let's behonest, this is how we do
everything else in our life.
Right, I can't tell you.
The last time I like carried ona whole phone conversation with
one of my family members, butman, I've already got 30 texts
today from a group chat in myfamily.
(11:02):
So that's just one example.
But we have coaches that arethere that are ready to jump on
the phone and ready to talkthrough things.
We're carrying on meetingsasynchronously to interact with
the coach and increasingly we'rebringing new technology to bear
that allows the learners tonavigate resources not just
(11:23):
through our messaging and ourhuman coaching, but also through
technology.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
When you engage them and you start talking about
reengaging in higher education,what do they tell you they're
looking for?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Oftentimes it boils down to really two things.
I want a better place in life,Like I want to be more
financially secure.
These are workforce andfinancially minded people.
I don't know that we've had asingle person come back who is
purely studying for the purposeof education alone.
That doesn't mean that theydon't care, but that's not what
(11:57):
they say first and foremost.
So how is this going to improvemy life?
How is this going to improve mybetter job?
Interestingly enough, thoughalmost equally common, I want to
be a good example for somebodyin my life.
Oftentimes it's my kids, butthose are the two primary
motivators.
I want to be a good sampleexample for them.
(12:19):
I want them to have a betterlife and I want greater, greater
security for myself, either injust job security or financial
security, and we we really leaninto working with people on that
and encourage people toactually keep that as their
North Star, because you knowthis isn't something that you
(12:41):
get immediate gratification on.
Going back to school is a longjourney and we try to actually
identify whatever that NorthStar is for that learner and
then remind them of that andpull them back to that every
time things get hard, because,let's be honest, it's going to
get hard.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Right?
No, it's going to get hard,Right?
No, it's going to get hard.
You mentioned that governmentslocal governments, state
governments, and there's evenbeen talk at the national level
about this demographic oflearner.
When you talk to officials ingovernment, whether local
policymakers or statepolicymakers, how do they think
(13:18):
about that lost investment?
Because at 41 million learnerswith some college, no degree,
that's a lot of public dollarsthat went into their education
and they're getting very littleback on that return on
investment.
So how do you engage theseleaders and talk to them about
that lost investment?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
So, first off, I've yet to meet one who actually
understands it as a lostinvestment.
It's one of the first things wesay.
An average state looms $200million to $300 million a year
in subsidies for people who willquit in that given year, and
our team is actually working onmore and more sophisticated ways
(14:00):
to calculate this loss ofinvestment.
One of the first things I saywhen I'm sitting down with the
legislator or governor's officewhatever is I, I I named that
number for them for theirindividual state, and usually I
get a little bit of like a sitback in the chair, cross the
arms of oh wow.
So, first off, many of themdon't think about that and we're
(14:21):
trying to do that advocacy worknow um, because I think there
hasn't been enough governmentintervention, because they don't
understand the scope and scaleof the problem at the state
level.
That's enough.
I think we pretty quickly tryto help them go from risk to
opportunity.
Yes, you've lost a lot ofinvestment in this population of
learners.
(14:41):
Yes, this learner learners byand large tend to be Pell
eligible, which is a goodindicator of the poverty level,
and about 50% of what we see isin that Pell eligible break.
But let's talk about theopportunity.
These are not risk.
This is net opportunity forthem, those learners, and for
(15:03):
you and your state.
These are people who are part ofthe way there.
You've got workforce gapsCommunity college they may be
six to nine months away fromgetting a degree that can help
fill those workforce gaps.
You've got tax shortages inyour state.
These people are anywhere fromsix to 12 months away from
having a better wage and payinghigher taxes.
(15:24):
You're worried about people inyour state who are struggling to
make it mine.
You get the pattern here.
So, oftentimes we're doing theadvocacy work because there
isn't that organization thatgoes out and advocates on their
behalf.
Our first conversations are youhave significant lost
investment here, but that alsorepresents a fast path to
(15:47):
positive ROI in terms of impacton lives, impact on state
coffers, impact on workforce,and that's a net opportunity for
you overall.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
That is such an important conversation.
In my day job at CollegeFutures Foundation, we're
launching into a return oninvestment survey of all 292
public private institutions herein California and the ROI is
very dependent on completion.
Institutions that have a lot oflearners with some college, no
(16:23):
degree that didn't finish, thatROI is just not the same.
So on multiple levels, thislack of credential, this lack of
completion, is hurting thereturn on investment, not only
for states, but for institutionsand for learners and their
families themselves.
So I think it's such animportant piece that I hope our
(16:43):
policymakers spend much moretime, because it is a huge loss
of economic value for ourcountry.
So you mentioned previouslytechnology and the use of
technology in reengaginglearners.
I know that you rely ontechnology to stay engaged with
these learners that you'reserving.
(17:05):
How do you see the impact of AIaffecting the way that you
support the learners that you'reengaged with?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
there's a lot of opportunities with AI, and this
is where I'll get on my soapboxfor a minute.
I think we've got there's a fewthings.
First is I think we're in alittle bit of an AI hysteria
right now that everybody thinksAI is going to absolutely solve
all problems, and it's true, itcan be enormously beneficial, or
(17:36):
it can be incredibly beneficial, but at the same time, I think
there's a couple things that I Iwatch out and then I'm going to
talk.
I'm talking about a couple watchouts and a couple areas where I
see opportunity first is look,we have 10 million natural
language recorded interactionswith learners and we know which
ones led to positive resultsenrollment and and In some ways
(17:59):
we are like primed to make useof some of the AI and we've done
some testing on it.
It is not so far along that itcan navigate highly nuanced
regulatory and ethicalconversation At least we're not
seeing it yet these complexdecisions.
We need to be careful aboutwhat we tell learners.
We need to always give themagency, always give them choice,
(18:23):
not make false promises.
And anybody who is working touse ai as like a hammer to solve
this.
I would caution that these arepeople that we're interacting
with and we.
Ai is not.
It's not smart enough to do ityet.
Here's the future.
It might be.
Second people we're seeing thatour learners want to have more
(18:46):
ways to interact with technology, that when you need a human,
you need a human, and when wewant a human, we want a human.
So one of the reverseconversations and watchouts with
AI is that we end up losingpeople along the way who just
want to talk to someone.
They just need somebody to help.
(19:07):
In fact, in an AI world, humancontact carries me to a bigger
premium.
This is what I even tell my owninternal people or my own
internal team.
This is why I even tell my owninternal people or my own
internal team, if you have anytype of premium status on an
airline, you highly value thatability to pick up a phone and
talk to somebody and not wait onthe wait line for 20 or 30
(19:29):
minutes.
That's right.
Everybody should have that fornavigating their education
journey.
Everybody should be able topick up a phone and navigate
through.
If you're lucky enough to buy ahouse, this is the second
biggest investment you'll makein your life and there's no real
estate broker or there's nomortgage broker or there's no
all these things.
Everybody deserves a real humanwhen they need it to answer
(19:50):
their questions and help themnavigate processes.
So high level on AI, it's notthere yet to be able to just
like hammer, solve a problem andanybody who's trying to deploy
it careful.
Second, in an AI world, humansare becoming even more valuable
in terms of like those realconnection moments.
That said, look, we're using AIadversity every part of the
(20:14):
business.
Right now.
We're looking for those firstfew messages that interact with
learners.
We know that some machinelearning generated responses can
speed up connection speed toresponding.
Those first messages are reallyimportant.
That's where AI is like, reallybeneficial.
We know that a lot of ourlearners come to us with very
(20:34):
nuanced questions about tryingto navigate specific policies
and things at an institution.
We built a massive knowledgemanagement system for every
single institution we have andwe're deploying AI to help our
coaches and help our technologybe able to find answers for them
very quickly.
Third, we're constantly lookingfor new ways to engage new
(20:56):
people, new populations withinour database, and AI has
actually been very helpful inhelping us find new messaging
and test new messaging muchquicker than what we would have
done in the past.
So I think people are a littleoverblown on how fast AI is
going to change education, butthere's a ton of intermediates,
(21:19):
oftentimes unsexy applications,that are moving the needle for
us internally some similaritiesand some differences that you
(21:42):
find state by state in how thesedisengaged learners, these lost
learners, are showing up.
There's actually far moresimilarities than differences.
In fact, I think generally whatwe find is with this population
of learners, whether they'reliving in New Jersey, they're in
Massachusetts or they're inMichigan, they're in North
Carolina, they're in Texas,they're all Michigan, they're in
North Carolina, they're inTexas, they're all in a sort of
(22:02):
they're all kind of commonalityin how they're approaching the
conversation.
Most of them are activelyemployed today.
People who aren't employed arefocused on more base level needs
and usually aren't starting theconversation with us.
They are employed today.
They likely had significantwage gain during pandemic.
(22:23):
And for a moment they didn'tthink about education, because
they just saw such animprovement in how much money
was coming in the door and theirbank accounts maybe were the
largest they'd ever been intheir life.
That for a moment they didn't.
But now they're starting tofeel the pain right again and
they're really starting to comeback to okay, I can't have that
(22:46):
hourly job at making burritos.
I'm going to have to and needto find a pathway to something,
something better and somethingmore sustainable.
That said, like with most of oursociety right now, there's some
skepticism of higher education.
I find that there is less withthis population than the
(23:08):
population as a whole.
These are oftentimes people whosee the difference between the
person at their job who has thebachelor's degree or has the
associate's degree or has theassociate's degree, and
themselves.
That is not like that.
That's very obvious to them.
So when you're talking aboutyou know when you're talking to
(23:29):
a group of people who maybe wereless motivated during pandemic
but are now getting moremotivated, now they see the
value.
They may question highereducation, like in general's
value, but they know the valueof that credential and opening
up that next job and that betterum and that better pay, the
other.
The other common thing I wouldsay, though, beyond just like
(23:49):
behavior and characteristics, isand this is especially
important for policymakersthey're still where they started
.
91 to 95% of them are still instate.
So for policymakers who arethinking about dollar for dollar
impact, roi and are worriedabout brain drain and investing
all this money in these peoplewho go here and go somewhere
(24:11):
else to actually make a living,this population has roots.
This population stayed evenwithout the better job and
they're pretty well rooted intotheir community.
So an investment in there is amuch better investment in your
state than maybe you might beused to or questioning as a
(24:31):
policymaker.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
So, as we begin to wrap up, let me ask you this
two-part question.
So, as we begin to wrap up, letme ask you this two-part
question.
Based on what you've seen goingon around the country, what
would you tell policymakers?
Is good policy to re-engagethese learners?
Is there something that you'veseen in one of the states that
you're working in that you thinkreally is lifting up this
(24:54):
population of learners?
Really is lifting up thispopulation of learners?
And then my last question wouldbe if you run into a learner on
the street who's trying tore-engage in higher education,
what advice do you have for them?
Speaker 2 (25:07):
For the state policy.
It's simple.
The reason we aren't makingbetter traction on this
population is that, for mostschools, they don't have the
resources to support them andthey are not incentivized to
support this population is that,for most schools, they don't
have the resources to supportthem and they are not
incentivized to support thispopulation.
In fact, if you were to getsome of the best policy out
there for individualinstitutions doing this work and
(25:27):
you were to really narrow thatin, it would mean only serving
around 6% to 7% of the entire 41million.
The way to do this if you're astate policymaker is you need to
centralize the data andcentralize the population
learner into one system withinyour state.
In the case of new jersey newjersey, we know, has about 700
(25:51):
000 some college now credentialwe now have a centralized
database of 220 000 of of thoseNew Jerseyans.
We have their contactinformation, we have their zip
code and we are outreaching themand we are getting them back to
not just the original schoolbut any school in the state.
That only works if you have acentral system and the
(26:12):
individual schools are not doingthe work themselves, because if
they do the work themselves,they're only going to benefit
themselves are not doing thework themselves, because if they
do the work themselves, they'reonly going to benefit
themselves.
Anything disparaging to theseindividual schools, it's just
practical of how they have torun an operation.
You centralize it in the state.
Nobody cares where theyactually end up going, because
everybody ends up benefiting.
You want to make an impact,centralize this within your
(26:35):
state.
In terms of advice on the streetit's interesting you asked this
I ran into two people recentlyOne with my hairdresser who
actually went to a school thatwe work with.
The other person was at mylocal hardware store and was
mixing the paint that I wasusing to paint my office and I'm
(26:56):
not at today.
I gave two pieces of advice todifferent different To my
hairdresser.
I asked her if she was happy.
I asked her why she quit.
I just said well, you'resitting there cutting my hair.
I was just trying to understandwhy she wasn't life.
She felt like she's in a reallygood place in life.
She loves what she's doing.
She went back and got adifferent credential.
(27:16):
She makes a good living.
He's where she's going to.
My advice to her was that'sawesome, like it'd be with no
events, and it was to say hey,we work with your school.
If you ever change your mind,we're here to support you.
It's important that not all somepeople have found a pen absent
education and that's okay.
(27:36):
And for my person who wasmixing and paint him and I
actually talked for about 15, 20minutes he's struggling.
He went to a public university.
He went to a community college.
Many years later.
For him the challenge was as anadult, and now an adult in his
forties, he was having a hardtime navigating the complexity
(27:59):
of higher education.
My advice to him was you've gotto find someone on campus who
can help you navigate the system.
You've been out for a while.
It's complicated, let's just behonest.
It's complicated to go highereducation, especially when
you're older and you've been outfor some time.
Finding that person who cannavigate those systems it's
(28:23):
going to be critical.
In his case we didn't actuallywork with that individual school
, but I actually connected himto the advising on campus and
say they're not oriented quitein the same way of coaches, but
they are still there to supportyou.
Before you ever go back andjust sort of throw yourself back
in, make sure you have asupport system around you,
somebody on campus and somebodyin your life, who can support
(28:47):
you and encourage you whenthings get hard, because
inevitably they do.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
They certainly do.
And with that great piece ofadvice for learners all across
this country looking to improvetheir lives, looking to get back
into higher education, I wantto say thanks, tara, for joining
us here on the rant.
I really appreciate the workthat you're engaged in.
I hope many people hear yourmessage.
Many state leaders hear yourmessage.
(29:14):
We really do need to re-engagethose 41 million learners, not
just for the sake of theircurrent situation, but for the
sake of their families goingforward, for the sake of the
debt that they might be carrying.
So, for all those reasons andthe economies of their
communities, their cities, theirstates, this is a really
important issue.
So thanks for being with us hereon the Rant.
(29:35):
Thank you, ami All right.
Thanks everybody for joining ushere on the Rant.
Thank you, ami All right.
Thanks everybody for joining ushere on the Rant.
I've been talking with DerekCruz, ceo of ReUp Education, and
ReUp Education is a supporterof the Rant podcast, so very,
very thankful to ReUp Educationfor their support.
If you enjoyed this episode,hit the like button, continue to
(29:56):
follow us on this YouTubechannel or follow us on your
favorite podcast platform.
Thanks for joining us everybody.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
And we'll see you again soon.
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