EP 23: Reimagining Success: Embrace Change and Tackle Burnout with Nicole Greene

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Real you Podcast.
I'm your host, david Young, andthis is episode number 23.
This podcast discusses tappinginto your potential and finding
ways to be the truest version ofyourself.
Today, I'm joined by NicoleGreen, a personal and business
growth consultant, personaldevelopment advocate and a
fellow data nerd, which I love.
We will discuss her journey,how she uses LinkedIn, the joys

(00:20):
and frustrations of finding yourpath as a solopreneur, and how
she supports founders andbusiness owners at their most
vulnerable times.
So, nicole, sorry for the longdelay in having you on the show,
thanks for your patience andthanks for coming on today.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
I was starting to take it personally.
I'm pretty sure I forced myselfonto the show, possibly by
shaming you.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yes, you're on the list.
I just didn't get to yourinvite soon enough.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
But here we are.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yes, better late than never.
Before the year was out, we'llhave your episode.
The good part is, your episodewill be live faster.
If I'd have had you on in April, your episode wouldn't have
come out until August.
This turnaround is going to belike six weeks, so that's your
payoff.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
You get to hear it soon.
Sounds like you've streamlinedyour operations.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
It is a little smoother now.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
It.
It is a little smoother now.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
It's taken a little bit of practice, but yeah, so
thanks for coming on.
I see you're rocking the blueYeti mic.
I may invest in that myself.
This is the Samson Q2U whichI've used the whole time, but I
feel like I need somethingbetter.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, I mean, it's iconic apparently.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
You recognized it off of a still shot on LinkedIn.
I was like I think that's whatI'm using.
I tend to hijack other people'sdiligence.
You know I'm a really decisiveperson and I kind of go with
okay, this person I trust, right, they have, and then I don't do
any diligence beyond what doyou do, and I'll do that.

(01:40):
Okay because there's so manyother areas where I go deep and
like do all of my analytics andthe cost benefit and the Gantt
chart, et cetera, that it's like, if I can outsource to somebody
, I do that.
A lot with parenting too, right, it's like there are certain
parents that I know are doingall of the legwork.
I'm like you tell me whereyou're sending your kid.
I'm going to go there, I likeit.
That's very resourceful.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
I like it.
That's very resourceful.
It's great.
Time management, which is yourthing, time by design.
So that makes a lot of sense.
I'm the opposite.
I have a spreadsheet with allthe microphones and the pros and
cons and the cost and whichone's which and which sounds
better, and yeah.
So I'll decide in like sixmonths and then I'll make the
wrong choice and that's usuallywhat happens.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Beat yourself up over it for another 18 months and
then start the cycle all overagain yeah, you can't see it.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
So the the divider.
Here there's a well, it's atreadmill now but uh, there was
a spin bike.
So when covid hit, we decided,you know, we were going to
cancel the gym membership and wewanted something.
And my wife's not a runner andbut she was like I'll use a spin
bike and so I should.
I wanted to just buy a peloton,that's's all I wanted.
I didn't want to research it, Ijust wanted to spend the money,

(02:46):
get it and be done.
Right, it was like 25 or $2,600.
Like at the time, she was likeit's so expensive, like I don't
know if we're going to use it.
So I went down the rabbit holeof like you know, okay, let's.
I think it was called MyFitnessor Mixed Fitness, like MYX,
brand new.
They'd only been in businessfor like six months.
It was like a Peloton knockoff.

(03:07):
It was like $850.
Basically, did the same thing.
I was like all right, try it.
It took me three months.
They couldn't get it to workfor three months and I was like
this is why you spend the $2,500.
I guarantee you a Peloton wouldhave worked in 30.
Yeah, um, so yeah there it is.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
So that's how you've that's like your narrative, to
validate the extensive, thedepth of your analysis on the
microphone.
Okay, exactly, I'm gonna letthat go.
You can have that so yeah, um,anyway.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
So we met on linkedin , like all of my guests, um how,
how long you've been on, howlong you've been active, you,
how do you use it?

Speaker 2 (03:44):
So I started in January of this year.
Yeah, I mean I had previouslybeen on super passively.
I think I had not posted at allother than, like you know,
updating my career as I made thesquiggly twists and turns that
you're aware of.
Maybe in December I was awarethat I wanted to start using

(04:04):
LinkedIn, so I dabbled.
And then in January I was awarethat I wanted to start using
LinkedIn, so I dabbled.
And then in January I did acourse that was basically a
force function for me to startwriting and posting on a daily
basis.
So I did that and I'vebasically stuck with it.
Over the summer I shifted fromfive days a week.
At one point I was doing sixdays a week and now I'm at three

(04:25):
, sometimes four, and that feelslike the right amount for me
and what I kind of am lookingfor on LinkedIn and what I get
back from LinkedIn.
So I've made that adjustment.
But yeah, that's kind of beenthe journey.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, I think I do five times a week.
Now Three times a week is myfavorite.
I've probably done more threetimes a week than any other
cadence.
If I looked at it month overmonth, it's what feels the best
in terms of just bandwidth andfeeling creative and writing.
But the other thing I'velearned is that when you're
trying to use it for businessand client acquisition, that

(05:01):
three times is just not enough.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Oh, yeah, the algorithm hates me.
My impressions are crazy low,you know, but it's that's not
the, that's not what, where it'sat for me anyway.
So I've just kind of learned tonot worry about that.
But yeah, if I was leveragingLinkedIn for business
development more, or my myoffering ladder to business
development on LinkedIn moredirectly, then that would be a

(05:26):
problem, right, because everyTuesday I take the hit from the
fact that I haven't posted sincethe prior Thursday and I'm like
, okay, but that's the choice,because you know I love LinkedIn
.
First, just to say like, therelationships that I've built
here are unbelievable to me.
You know, I didn't come fromreally robustly using other
social media platforms.
I had been passively on otherplatforms, but I left Facebook a

(05:52):
long time ago and then I was onInstagram, but mostly on the
receiving end or just kind ofkeeping up with other people or
my own interests.
And when I started connectingon LinkedIn and then bridging
from the LinkedIn connection toan actual conversation, I was
like holy crap, these are realrelationships and I absolutely

(06:13):
adore and deeply respect so manypeople that I've met on here
and so it's really, it's givenback so much in that capacity,
you know.
But there have definitely beentimes where I'm like for the
amount of time I'm spending onthis, like from a revenue
generative perspective.
This is not like returning whatI would need it to to justify

(06:35):
the amount of time.
And you know me like sointentional about how I spend my
time.
You know, building a business,I've got two little boys, so
it's like every every minute Itry to allocate with intention
and so that math wasn't workingfor me at a higher volume of
posting.
So you know it's like witheverything you you have to make

(06:57):
the trade-off that makes themost sense.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah, no, I hear you there and totally echo the
people that I've met, likeyourself and many others.
Just, um, I feel like we'vebeen friends for like ever, like
you've known somebody for likesix months, um, and you know,
I've had zoom calls, people allover the world and just a lot of
smart, just high achieving,like high energy, creative, I

(07:19):
don't know.
It's just it's really likewe're kind of renewed my like
faith in humanity.
Um, it's probably too grand ofa statement, but you understand
my point.
Like, yeah, you meet enoughpeople and you're like, okay,
they're all like working towardssomething and doing something,
and then you see that enough,and you're like, all right, like
there's good people and they'resmart people and trying to help
people and like all these kindof things, and so you get that
reinforcement and so there's alot of bad going on.

(07:42):
You can find the bad if youwant to look for it, worldwide,
nationally, whatever but likethere's also good too if you
spend time, you know, lookingfor that.
So I totally echo you there.
So, yeah, so talk about.
So I know we don't have to gothrough your entire work history
, but you do have a very, veryeclectic history.
So you started in theDepartment of Defense and then

(08:06):
you went, I believe, toChocolate Truffles and then you
went to a couple of I think wasit medical startups or finance
startups, something like that.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
I did CPG directly after Consumer packaged goods
product goods.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Okay, so, yeah.
So talk about kind of DOD intochocolate.
I think that's the mostfascinating jump.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, by the way, every time I hear that played
back to me I'm like, honestly, Idid that, what was that?
But I did so.
I started my career, kind ofcoming out of my first run of
grad school, and was apresidential management fellow,
which is an executive branchfellowship that places you
anywhere in the executive branchof the US government.

(08:47):
Highly recommend for anyone whois in that situation of being
in grad school or who are morerelevant to our demographic, who
have kids that are coming outof college and going into grad
school.
It was amazing, but I wentthrough the cycle of application

(09:08):
and being evaluated and you endup, you know, interviewing in
all of these different agencies.
I, for me, it narrowed down tothree positions.
It was like a position in theDepartment of Commerce,
department of Education andDepartment of Defense.
I had no business taking aposition in the.
Department of Defense, which is,you know, you know me well
enough to know that's probablywhy I did it.
At the time I was like, well,you know, I'm 21.

(09:30):
I'm like I have all of theseestablished bona fides in
Department of Education thatlike I can always go back there
for, like, doing publiceducation reform work, worked
for the mayor of Chicago, and Iwas like in that space and
really passionate about it.
But so I saw this as like, oh,let me do this for two years and

(09:51):
then I can always go back.
You know, one thing that'sinteresting about life is that
we can never quite account forpath dependency right and how
that shows up.
In my case it showed up to anextreme because three weeks into
my fellowship, 9-11 happenedand that was such a paradigm
shift.
I mean not to reduce it to that, but in addition to all, how my

(10:13):
role evolved and how cultureand sentiment evolved within the
defense department andliterally, you know, the two
years of my fellowship becamenine years.
Thankfully I had I postedrecently that my first job, so

(10:38):
my first real job, because againI was 20, just had turned 22 at
this point.
My fellowship position wasoperations, research and systems
analytics.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Sounds perfect for you which?

Speaker 2 (10:50):
could not.
What'd you say?

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Sounds perfect for you.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
I mean right, like it could not have been a worse fit
.
And, thankfully, like prettyearly on, somebody kind of who
ended up becoming my mentorwithin the fellowship program
was like that is absolutely notwhere you should be, you know I
right.
So I ended up shifting into adefense intelligence position.

(11:14):
I'm kind of following that path.
But toward the end, I think youknow there were a lot of things
going on.
I am a super creative person.
I think you know there were alot of things going on.
I am a super creative person andthat sort of part of me was so
suppressed by the experience ofworking within that field and

(11:36):
there were other factors as welland I decided, you know, I
really felt like I needed tosave myself and just get out and
do something very, verydifferent.
At the time I was still kind ofin this proving pattern, this
external validation seekingbehavior that really made it
hard for me to make an informedand intentional, proactive

(11:57):
decision about what would bebest or what would fulfill me,
because I wasn't even askingthat question, I wouldn't have
even recognized the validity ofthat question at the time.
So I made a super reactivedecision and that decision
ultimately, in a very strangeway led me to creating building

(12:17):
scaling, an artisan chocolatescompany.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
There's a lot that I'm leaving out, but that's kind
of the architecture.
The creativity was going tocome out, and it came out there.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah, there you go.
There's a lot that I'm leavingout, but that's kind of the
architecture.
The creativity was going tocome out and it came out there.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, I have a pattern of overcorrecting.
There's several points in my andwe can just bring my dad on if
you want to just really leaninto that.
But you know again, like Ithink when you're not in a
position or you're not allowingyourself to make intentional
decisions, right, that tendencyto sort of overcorrect and

(12:50):
pendulum swing is there At leastit has been for me on several
different occasions.
I can point to pivot in my ownsort of approach to my business.
Now I recognize that there wasan overcorrection in the origin

(13:11):
of where I am today and thependulum is swinging like less
wildly now because I havebrought a ton of intentionality
to it.
But it's been an interestingexercise in realizing that that
dynamic still exists for me andit's like an opportunity to, you
know, go deeper into thatunderstanding.
I feel like personal growth islike that right, you kind of you
feel like you've dealt withsomething and then it just like

(13:34):
shows up in a different version,you know, sometime later and
you're like, oh, that's the samething.
I'm like I'm closer to it.
Right, it's a different version, but it definitely has shared
DNA.
With that problem I thought I'dalready wrapped a bow around.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
It doesn't end.
I mean it's a lifelong odysseyand process and like you said
even when you think you have itfigured out and maybe you do but
sometimes it's a gap of timewhere it presents itself in a
slightly different situation, soit's not blatantly obvious and
then can fall into like oldpatterns and traps, because they
don't.
They don't die easily, um, butI think as we get older, like

(14:12):
you said, you recognize them alittle more quickly and then you
can kind of get out before youfeel like you've really like
you've really fucked it up.
Um, just, I want to go backjust quickly to the DOD work,
the heaviness of that role, likethe seriousness and the
heaviness of that role,especially post 9-11.
Did you have a hard time likeprocessing the work and then

(14:34):
like living your life withoutjust having that on your mind
like all the time?

Speaker 2 (14:39):
I mean no, because my life was my work right.
I had internalized thislimiting belief from much
earlier on that I wasn't smarterthan anyone.
I just worked harder, and so myway of being enough was through

(15:02):
work, and so my way of provingmyself was through work.
My way of being enough wasthrough work, and so my way of
proving myself was through work.
My way of being okay withmyself, accepting myself,
showing up in the world all ofthat was really through work.
So I didn't experience thattension that you would expect,
because it was so outsized in mylife at the time that I didn't

(15:27):
really feel that tension.
I mean, I felt like ameaningful disconnect in terms
of the work not laddering to adeeper purpose purpose and it's

(15:51):
definitely not a day to get intopolitics but I wasn't super
aligned with what.
I felt complicit in at the time,and so that really affected me
and is ultimately why I ended updeciding to get out.
It was like, on a personallevel, the feeling suppressed
creatively, but also like mysoul felt like it was dying a
little bit, but never in a waythat interfered with, like my
ability and willingness toperform.

(16:12):
You know what I mean Because,like, for me, that was always
like the thing was like, oh, I'mgoing to perform the crap out
of this job and then, like thatother stuff took a lot longer to
bubble up for me, because I was, you know, getting that
validation that I was lookingfor, that I desperately needed
in order to feel whole and feelgood, and so I just kind of kept

(16:33):
going on that path.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, no, I totally figure there.
I've done not quite to thatextreme, but I've definitely
stayed on pass and in jobs forjust way longer, um, almost like
immediately knowing it's not afit, but being like, well, this
is like what I'm supposed to bedoing, or like this was a
promotion.
So I should just, you know, bethankful and happy that I'm here
and like I'll grid it out andI'll figure it out.

(16:56):
Maybe it won't be so bad in sixmonths, right?
And then it just gets worse andworse, and then you just get
deeper and deeper into a holethat you never really wanted to
be in.
And then you're like, what thefuck do I do now?

Speaker 2 (17:07):
So do you identify as a pendulum swinger as well, or
what is the dynamic?
Is there a shape to yourpattern?

Speaker 1 (17:15):
I don't know if I've looked at it in that context,
but what I usually did is got toa certain point and then I
would just quit.
So I was not very good atplanning an escape.
I just dealt with it, dealtwith it, dealt with it, and then
it got to the point where Icouldn't deal with it anymore,
and then I would quit, and thenI would, and then I would repeat
that pattern.
So then I would go down adifferent path, kind of run that
one out, quit, started over.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
I've done that three or four times, um is it a
scorched earth quitting or justa save myself?

Speaker 1 (17:46):
That's a good question, I think most of them.
I have to think about this.
Let's see, the first one waskind of a hybrid.
We'll say a little bit of both.
They were probably happy to getthe call that I was quitting.
The second one was morepeaceful.
Third, well, there was ashorter one in between.
That was really bad.

(18:07):
That didn't go well.
So, yeah, I would say a mix ofboth.
But I started to recognize itas I looked back on it, through
therapy sessions and whatnot, Iwas like, oh yeah, I kind of do
that.
So now I try to be a littlemore foresight, to be like let's
just not get it to the pointwhere, like today, I'm quitting.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, Right, you're like, yeah, operating here is
not a good place to be.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
You can only do so much of that and you're like all
right, this is something that'sgoing to give and it's going to
be me.
So I'm out.
Yeah, I will say quitting feelsgood.
You see a lot of that likedon't quit and I'm, for the most
part, I align with not quitting, but there's sometimes that
quitting is A the right decisionand, b it feels really good.
So I would like to say that forthe record.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
I couldn't agree more and I've done.
I have quit with a plan andquit without a plan, and both
feel good in different ways.
I would, you know, I don't knowthat I would endorse them both
for everyone to the same degreeof, you know, confidence.
But, yes, right, it was.

(19:14):
Ultimately we're all, I hope,all finding our path right.
How some people, you know it'sa straighter line.
Mine has been all over theplace, but I definitely feel
like I have finally converged onthe thing that feels like it's
right and it's beautiful.
And yeah, you know, had I nothad unresolved trauma that I
suppressed for 30 years, likemaybe my path would have been

(19:36):
straighter, right, I mean,there's so many other variables
that led to it being as squigglyas it was.
But here, you know, I'm like I,I feel the difference Right and
I think that's why, yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
And the other thing too is, um, it's hard to.
I think it's hard to keep thisin mind, but if it happens
sooner or when you're younger orin a more linear fashion, A, I
don't think you have theappreciation for it, and then B,
I think you also would look toget out because you'd be like
all right, yeah, this is good,but I'm like only 31.

(20:09):
And like what's next?
Right, but when you have whathappens a little later in life,
and I think especially once youhave kids and you have struggled
, and then you kind of find it,I think it feels better and then
you just you have, you havemore presence and you have more
appreciation.
So it does suck to go throughlike many, many years of like.
What you feel like is beatingyour head against the wall.
But there is, I think, somereward on the other side, where

(20:32):
you're like, oh, like I don'thate getting up today, Like, oh,
I sit down at my computer and Ilook forward to this, Like this
is a foreign feeling.
I'm really going to embracethis.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, I, I hear you 100%.
I think I for a lot of thattime did not identify as
dreading the work or not feelingfulfilled by it, but that's
because I was bought into thelike social, cultural definition

(21:00):
of what fulfillment was Right.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
So you know, I was like sorry, money title
promotions, exactly.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
You know, and so right, because I was getting all
of that.
I was really in and I in somany different ways, including
in a job that ultimately I fullyburnt out in and I really loved
the work, totally missing thefact that ultimately I it was
not fulfilling me at all and inthat particular situation it was
actually gutting me.

(21:29):
I was becoming a shell of aperson.
But all the validation right.
I love that you made fun of mea little bit for employee of the
year I did that was that.
It's like, yeah, I was employeeof the year and like totally
just got it Buy into that.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
Like, yeah, I was giving a hard time about it, but
only because I did the samething Like I was, we were after
the same thing I won.
It wasn't employee of the year,but it was like they called it
a special achievement award andI was so proud of that for so
long I put it on my resume.
I think I even had on LinkedInfor a while, like many, many
years later it was like hey, in2001, like this guy right, and I

(22:09):
think about it now.
I was like nobody gave a flyingrat's ass like no one.
But that's what you did, right,you?
You you tried to get.
If they had those things, youwere trying to get them.
If you got them, like you gotan award, you typically got some
money, you got some recognition, right, and then you're like,
let's do it again, and so when Isaw that on your thing.
It just reminded me of my own,like same, so I just thought it

(22:30):
was funny.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
Was it an Italian leg lamp?
Your special award.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
No, it was just like a plaque and I got $3,500.
Okay, which was like quite abit of money, it's 2001.
Like I thought that was apretty good bonus, um and uh,
but yeah, it was like it feltgreat.
I didn't even like that job,but like I liked getting that
award and I sure as fuck likeputting it on my, on my resume.
I feel you, uh, so yeah, so,was it burnout then that?

(23:01):
Was it the lack of creativity,or like suppressed creativity
and burnout where you finallywere like I'm out of the
department of defense?
Or did it just get to the pointwhere you're like I just can't
do it anymore?

Speaker 2 (23:11):
I don't I good question.
I don't identify as as havingburnt out in the department of
defense.
It was more of again like aself-preservation move.
But looking back and from whatI understand now about survival
mode, right, I think weassociate survival mode with the
overwhelm variants.
Right, because we're like, oh,we have so much to do,

(23:32):
desperately trying to get it alldone.
But there's like underwhelm isthe other type of survival mode
and I think it's much less kindof appreciated, recognized and
talked about, but equallypresent in those who experience
it.
And I think it's much less kindof appreciated, recognized and
talked about, but equallypresent in those who experience
it.
And I definitely dealt withburnout from underwhelm in that

(23:54):
role.
You know I was again.
I was feeling spiritually,emotionally, psychologically,
intellectually detached from thework, from the work, you know,
not just because of what wasgoing on in the world, but also
I mean, holy crap, like what abureaucracy, right, just like so

(24:15):
slow moving.
I felt like I was having thesame conversations with the same
people over and over again.
You know you go to these annualconferences and you're looking
around and it's the same peopleand we're talking about the same
things.
I'm like what?
So that wasn't for me at alland that I now recognize as
being symptomatic and symbolicof systemic underwhelm, which is

(24:35):
a form of survival mode and aform of burnout.
I didn't feel what we associatewith burnout at the time,
because I wasn't feelingoverwhelmed.
I was very much underwhelmed.
So, yeah, that's how that went.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
So once you got into the chocolate and the truffle
and the business, you said thatwas like a startup.
You kind of helped scale thatDid you immediately feel better,
like there was a pressurerelease, and you kind of were
like, oh, this is so differentand this is really good.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
That would be nice.
No, it was my own company.
What actually happened was Idecided I was going to take a
year off.
Six weeks into the year Irealized I am not a person that
takes a year off.
And again, I was talking tomaybe you know on LinkedIn Laura
Krauss.
She just published a bookcalled Layoff Cooties.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
It like came out yesterday.
I don't know her, but I knowwho you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Okay and I was speaking to her community this
week about really the important.
We get very few opportunitiesin our lives as adults to have a
break from routine within whichwe can really reevaluate our
defaults and make intentionalchoices at a higher level that

(25:49):
normally, like you know, we'rejust sort of so assigned to the
things we need to do to getthrough the day and take care of
all the stuff.
That was a point where you know, had I been in a healthier
place from a like traumarecovery and just personal
wellness perspective, I wouldhave taken the time and

(26:09):
approached it in a verydifferent way.
But at the time I was totallydefining myself based on my
ability to perform tasks andlike get shit done right.
It was like, oh well, I can dothat, like I'm the best at that.
And then, when that didn'texist for me, I didn't have that
context.
I really didn't understand whoI was and couldn't sit with
myself in that lack ofproductivity or lack of context

(26:32):
for it.
So I was like, you know, here'sthe pendulum swing.
I can't believe I'm talkingabout this, but it was like,
okay, well, I just want to dosomething that's going to make
people happy.
Right Cause I've been likeimmersed in war on the periphery
for 10 years, almost 10 years,and you know, I was like, oh, I
was like floral school or pastryschool, like, literally, this
was my thought process Like well, I really love flowers, I

(26:55):
really love chocolate, likemaybe I'll do wedding cakes
Because, right again, mycreativity, like the creative
side, was just like trying tofly out of my body.
I'm like, oh yeah, I'm going todo special event cakes and I'm a
brilliant planner, right, mystrength is strategic,
operational and tactical.
I see these sort ofmultidimensional polyhedrons of

(27:19):
things as I work on projects.
So I'm like I don't plan thecrap out of a huge event and
make the cake for it.
And so, like I go to pastryschool, the first midterm exam
there's midterms in pastryschool.
The first midterm exam is likea cake, like it's a one layer,
maybe like eight inch cake.

(27:39):
Mine was an absolutecatastrophe.
Like I can't.
I wish I had a picture of it tosend you to put in the show
notes.
It's just like capture.
How bad this thing was.
And I knew immediately well,like that plan is definitely not
going to materialize.
But I actually fell in lovewith working with chocolate In
the context of the program.
It's like such a demandingmedium that there's like such a

(28:02):
technical rigor to it.
I love a challenge.
I'm like this chocolate iskicking my ass but I'm going to
win.
So you know, I really dedicatedmyself to that and coming out
of pastry school, you know, Imean, look looking back, all the
markers of like you really needto go into therapy were there.
I just I didn't see them andagain I was like performing at

(28:24):
such a high level.
My husband makes fun of this asthe other, the, the analogy to
the employee of the year of theyear award.
My husband loves to tell peopleI graduated from pastry school
with honors because it's like soridiculous, but true.
Um, you know, it was like um, Ididn't really want to do

(28:46):
anything overly with my brain atthat point.
I was just like so lost right.
Like I didn't know it at thetime, but I was so lost and so
disconnected from my value andhow I can create value for other
people which is, like I think,partly how I know I'm doing the
right thing now is I'm so dialedinto my superpower and how I
create meaningful value forother people that I serve and

(29:08):
that feels so great.
You know, it was at the timeslike I'm just.
Basically I left pastry schooland started running a bakery for
the holidays that year.
I put together like a MarthaStewart extravaganza, like
packaged box of goodness, andone of my friends gave it to an
aunt or second cut business.

(29:30):
And one of my friends gave itto an aunt or second cut, like
some familial connection, whoowned a candy store in
Pennsylvania.
And the woman called me a coupleof weeks later and placed an
order for like five dozen ofthese.
And you know, dah, dah, dah andI was like, oh, okay, like no
intention of, I had notcontemplated as a business, I
had no intention of selling, nopackaging, no, nothing.
But you know I, that's who I am.

(29:51):
I'm like, okay, yes, great,I'll take your order.
Let me figure it out.
And then I was off and runningreal decision about what to do
next Cause like obviously itwasn't the bakery job.
I was like let me go all in onthis business that I had started

(30:12):
to build and that was sort ofthe origin story.
The reason it became a thingwas I had the first
confectionery product thatincorporated craft beer and it
was at the beginning of thecraft beer movement.
And you know, one of the thingsthat we connect on, you
introduced us as mutual datanerds and I love that.

(30:32):
That's like your angle.
Your post today, I think, wasyour October roll up and I love
those and how thoughtful you areabout it.
Like well, I can read Signal.
I was in the Intel community.
So like, initially the beer andpretzel truffle was one product
among a sea of others and itwas like by far getting the most
orders, the most press, themost interest, the most

(30:54):
inquiries.
So I ended up building a wholeproduct line around it, Ended up
in the New York Times, in Foodand Wine Magazine and ultimately
on the front page of the WallStreet Journal nine days before
Christmas, which was its ownform of shit show.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Do you have all?

Speaker 2 (31:11):
those framed.
I don't you would think I would.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yeah, were you hoping I would like turn the camera
and show you my wall.

Speaker 2 (31:17):
No, I dug them out because my kids were interested.
For years they didn't know thatI even did this.
Yeah, and I did take them outrecently, like I had an album
kind of buried in a box, um.
So I have looked at them and Ithink I posted even at one point
some pictures of of that press.
But, um, yeah, that's basicallywhat happened.

(31:38):
Is I read the signal smartenough to follow that path and
ended up kind of succeeding atthe expense of myself and a
little bit by accident.
You know, I always felt youasked if that felt better to me
I always felt with that businessthat I never quite caught up to
myself and I was like I knew ata strategic level what I needed

(32:05):
to do but my operating systemsweren't in place, I think partly
because I was so reluctant togive up the kitchen role.
The reason I was there?
Because, again, I was trying toavoid using my brain at that
point.
I loved being in the kitchen andit's again that classic you
can't work on your business andwork in your business at the

(32:27):
same time.
Well, for the 20 hours a daythat I was running the kitchen
team, I was working very much inand not on, and it took me a
while to figure that out andfinally hire somebody to take
over that role.
Once I did.
It was a very different story,but it was years in and I really

(32:48):
started to hate the businessAgain.
I'm sorry looping, but it's notwhat I should have been doing
in the first place.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, you just got on the path and you just kept
doing it.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Right, because I'm very good at excelling on a path
.
I'm great at that.
The key is, you got to pick theright path.
That's what took me seveniterations to finally get to.
It's like, oh, this is theright path.
Now my excellence and highperformance is well-placed, but
up until then I was just likeperforming, performing,

(33:21):
performing to no end.
And to what end.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
Did you call everybody chef in the kitchen
like they do on the Bear?

Speaker 2 (33:29):
No, but I love the Bear.
Do you watch the Bear?

Speaker 1 (33:31):
We watched the first season.
I didn't really like it, so Ididn't want to watch it anymore.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
My wife is disappointed.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
The show makes me a little nervous.
It's so, yeah, like all thetime those kitchen scenes and
I'm just like this isn'tentertaining to me.
This just makes me nervous.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
I hear you.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
They're just yelling at each other all the time.
And then everyone is chef and Idon't really like that and I
mean I understand it, but itbothers me.
And then he and the cousin.
Although the cousin has somepretty funny lines I do like his
sense of humor and some of thestuff that he says I did enjoy
that, but just overall the showjust made me nervous and I was

(34:12):
like I didn't look forward towatching it.
It was like I was gritting, Iwas like grinding out the
episodes and I was like I thinkI don't want to watch this
anymore.
Um, but yeah, I know it's great, it's won a lot of awards and
people love it.
I think it's three seasons andthey're getting ready to do
another one maybe.
Um, but as you were talkingabout, like, running the kitchen
, I was just picturing nicolelike yeah, it's my chocolate
ready.
Chef, yes, chef, five minutes.
Chef Upstairs chef 75 chickens,45 lambs or whatever.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
Every second counts.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah, exactly 10 minutes to lunch, 10 minutes to
lunch we got to line out thedoor.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
What do we?

Speaker 1 (34:36):
got.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah, I do say, the carryover from kitchen culture
that I say and one of my clientsactually called me out for this
the other day is, I say, heard?

Speaker 1 (34:47):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
So, like right, the chef calls in the order.
Okay, heard heard, chef heard.
And so I say I still say heardinstead of.
I hear you in a way thatapparently stood out.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
That's okay.
No, it's, it's stuck with you.
Um, so yeah, so okay.
So you did so you're those two,and then you said seven.
So obviously the processrepeated a few more times.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
I don't think it's literally seven.
I hope it's not.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
So then, at what point did you find therapy?
And then was that kind of thegateway then to eventually
finding what you're doing now.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, 100%.
So after I sold the productline and closed the business, I
had Jonah, my oldest, andstarted B-School when he was 10
weeks old.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
That sounds like something you would do.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, it does.
Thank you for noticing.
I then had the youngest in themiddle of the program because
you know why not, because youknow why not.
And coming out of that, comingout of my MBA, I felt like ready
to join a team again.
I'd been doing consulting forother small businesses,
initially artisan foods, but,you know, through referral and

(36:02):
curiosity, branching into otherindustries, and I really missed
being part of a team.
I was like ready to growsomething and I took a position.
It was initially a businessdevelopment and strategy
position, but saw an opportunityto kind of pivot the business
model and develop an in-houseconcept to commercialization

(36:27):
product development engine thathadn't existed and so I ended up
kind of running that.
Business development was likeagain, that's probably as
appropriate for me as operations, research and systems analytics
.
You know, it's just like notthe fit.
I have so much respect forpeople who do that well.

(36:48):
It's just like not mypersonality and not where I
excel.
So I ended up kind of creatingthis path for myself and within
that context really burnt out.
It was a culture thatcelebrated high performance and
a culture in which there was nosort of benefit of the doubt,

(37:09):
right, there was no sort of heldcredibility.
So every new thing, you had toprove yourself right.
And I was like oh, I can provemyself all day long, like this
is perfect for me.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
I'll keep volunteering.
Yeah, I'll keep doing that.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
Right, prove myself right off the cliff, employee of
the year, project of the year,right, all the things.
And yeah, I was completelyburned out.
The boys were four and six.
At that point I felt like everykind of classic trait.
Now we're talking burnout fromoverwhelm, right, just
desperately trying to geteverything done that I felt like

(37:45):
I needed to get done tocontinue to prove myself, really
making myself so small in thatprocess, like every other thing,
escaped just left my life whileI was desperately trying to
perform in this role and youknow, I was showing up for my
kids in a physical capacity, butemotionally I wasn't there.

(38:05):
Mentally I wasn't fully there.
And thankfully, at the beginningof COVID I got an offer to
co-found a health technologycompany and it could have been
anything, because at that pointI knew that I needed to get out
of my situation and I had noidea how to do it.

(38:27):
A feature of burnout fromoverwhelm is learned
helplessness.
You stop believing in your ownagency to get yourself out of
the situation.
So I would be crying to myhusband.
I don't even know how I couldpossibly find another job.
I don't have time to update myresume, just sort of so deep in
that, and so this opportunitycame along.

(38:48):
I took it and I knew, going in,that like I had to make
meaningful changes in order toand I was ready, like at that
point, like you know, thepattern recognition finally
turned inward.
I'm like there's somethinggoing on here Like why was I so
vulnerable to that culture?
right, and why, does this keephappening?

(39:08):
Right, what's going on?
And so when I started that newrole, I started doing therapy
and figured out very early on, Ithink two things really
unlocked massive growth andspace creation for me that
allowed me to do the deeper work, which was one I realized I was

(39:30):
consciously choosing.
So, yes, that culture was toxicfor me, but also there were
things about me that made me sovulnerable right, because other
people were there, like they'renot caring, that they don't have
the benefit of the doubt.
They're showing up and doingtheir job and going home right.
For me, like for people, not togive me the benefit of the doubt

(39:51):
and know how good I was andknow how on top of it I was and
how on time with everything Iwas going to be, and for that to
be recognized as core to myidentity.
I really couldn't hold spacefor that.
I was constantly proving thatit was true.
When I realized that I wasconsciously choosing to show up

(40:11):
in that way, I also realized Icould consciously choose to show
up a different way.
So, like, my whole approach isaround head-led healing right,
because it was really driven bya series of choices and
intentional changes that I madethat then created space for the
deeper work around emotionalawareness and trauma recovery

(40:33):
and things like that.
And then the second thing wasto kind of work with dualities
Because again at the time and myburnout and all of this whole
thing was rooted in a childhoodtrauma that I had never dealt
with.
So that's not true for everyone.
For me, because that was true,I had to go there and I was
totally unequipped to do so, andso instead of like confronting

(40:58):
the tough emotions head on, Iworked with a therapist who
helped me kind of work theopposite dial.
So, if you think about right,what's the opposite of shame and
shame was a big one for me it'spride.
And so, instead of like goingdeep on understanding how shame
shows up in my life and likeworking on the shame which is

(41:19):
holy crap, like that's a lot ittook me a while to get there I
worked on pride and making likeintentional choices and
adjustments to recognize thingsthat I felt proud of, even
though, like at the beginning,they were microscopic, you know,
kind of stacking those wins andreally by dialing up pride,
which I was able to dointentionally through discipline

(41:40):
and practice, the shame dialeddown naturally in opposition and
that created the space.
So, yes, so that's kind of howit happened and that at a
certain point, two years in, Ireally felt this tension between
the job and the work, like thework on myself, and I was like I
got to get out of here.
I talked to a lot of women whohave this experience of having

(42:01):
been through burnout and thenseeing the signs of secondary
burnout, and I'm actually doingsort of my version of research
around this.
It's something that I want towrite about in the future how
women in particular experiencesecond wave burnout and how they
protect themselves from it andwhat that looks like and what it

(42:22):
feels like For me.
I was like I got to get thehell out of here, like I'm not
going through that again.
I knew I wasn't ready to likeride it out and like protect
myself.
Like the new infrastructure,right, the new operating system
was still like pretty fragileand I saw what the like, the,
the effect of the work that Iwas doing on my kids, right,

(42:44):
especially the little one.
His posture changed when Istarted showing up in the world
in a bigger way.
He started showing up in theworld in a bigger way.
It was so powerful.
So for me, I was like I don'tknow how to reconcile this in a
way that doesn't feel like it'sgoing to break me again.
So I got to go and that'sultimately.

(43:04):
Then I gave myself a hiatuswithin which to do the deeper
work in a much more focusedcapacity.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Well, I think that story and the therapy and
recognizing it, you recognizedit so much sooner.
I think that really shows thegrowth right Ten years before
that you probably would havegrinded that out for another
five years.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Well cycle time is kind of my thing, right, and
that's that's a perfect exampleof it.
It's like, okay, we're going toslip off the path, but how
quickly do we recognize and getourselves back onto it?
That's as a measure of growth.
It's a concept from leanmanufacturing and it's all about
exactly what you just said.
And so do you recognize cycletime improvement as an indicator

(43:51):
of growth as well?

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah, I started to see it a little bit sooner,
sometimes to a detriment, butbecause I maybe bail like a
little too quickly because it'snot going to work, and then it's
like, well, maybe you shouldjust give it more time.
But I'm leery to do the whole,stay in something for a really
long time and then be like Itold you it wasn't going to work

(44:15):
because I don't want to do thateither.
So it's a fine line.
But, yes, seeing it sooner,recognizing it, trying to take
steps earlier to avoid blowupsand where it just gets really
sideways, and then, as you knowit right, it started, like with
your kids and stuff, like itstarts to affect everybody
around you um, it is not, it isnot singular to just you.

(44:37):
Um, you know, affects marriagesand relationships and kids and
like all of it.
Because you, when you're, whenyou're that unhappy and you're
that miserable, it's impossibleto uh, turn that off and then
just become this like bright,energetic, loving, fun, like,
yeah, spouse and parent like you.
Just, I don't think very manypeople can do that.
So, yeah, again, combination ofage, a lot of therapy, um, a

(45:01):
lot of books, and then you juststart to see it like a little
sooner.
But it's a little different nowbecause this whole online thing
has been so great for me,because I don't have a boss, I
don't have to sit on endlesszoom meetings and I don't have
to listen to company all handsand like all that kind of stuff,
so like I'm in a much better.
I'm in a much better place notas good a place financially,

(45:21):
because it's harder to makemoney and you don't have the
guaranteed money but, unlikeevery other box, it's
significantly better.
So, um, that's what I try tofocus on.
At what point, then, did youstart thinking like kind of
entrepreneurship and like yourown thing and then trying to
help others, uh, with like allof your lived experience?

Speaker 2 (45:40):
yeah.
So I got to the, I gave myselfthe 18 months to like not really
worry about it and I I was inthat sort of period.
I was doing some consultingwork, super selectively and
doing the like, mostly reallydoing the work on myself, as I
was wrapping up that periodright and I'm like, okay, I did
a great job of not holdingmyself accountable to bringing

(46:04):
in income or worrying about that, which is, I think, pretty
remarkable.
We're a single income familyand so that's all always been on
me, so for me to really protectthe time for myself was super
significant a ton of sacrificeshout out to my husband and to
myself, because I valued myselfenough to know that this is

(46:26):
where I needed to be, this iswhere I needed to be focused.
And then I had this momentwhere and this is the, I was
going to say the final swing.
How?

Speaker 1 (46:38):
much.
You burst aside the minipendulum.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
This is the mini pendulum exactly.
So I had this moment where Iwas like, oh, like the, where
all of this comes together, likethe way to make sense of this
crazy life and squiggly path.
And everything that I've beenthrough is to help other women
avoid, avoid this right, avoidmaking themselves small in

(47:01):
pursuit of success, avoiddefining their value externally
and and sort of pursuing thatpath at the expense of
themselves, and particularlywomen who are multi-role like,
who identify as high performersright, and have multiple,
non-negotiable roles.
So you know the moms who areexecutives or who are founders,

(47:22):
the women who are caretakers,and also, you know, in jobs that
they really care a lot aboutlike it's impossible and we are
following this sort of um thatwe, we, we sort of buy into this
idea of work-life balance,which is elusive and only makes
us feel like we're failing inall directions at all times and

(47:44):
we totally fragment.
And I that had been myexperience.
So I was like I'm going to comeand help these people.
I got this and I love it.
I love that work and I knowit's so helpful and so impactful
for women to hear me tell mystory and be as direct as I am

(48:07):
and kind of own, the fact thatthe success that I was able to
achieve didn't actually fulfillme, and what that was at the
expense of, and what Iunderstand now and how I
journeyed back Like how do youget out of burnout in a way
that's sustainable?
But the overcorrection was theway I got to oh, I'm going to
coach and I'm going to coachthese high performing women is

(48:32):
several of my consultingrelationships had evolved into
coaching relationships and Iloved the coaching part.
I loved it and I'm like, oh,I'm going to do that, Like I'm
going to isolate that piece ofit Right.
What I didn't see at the timewas how much my experience of it
and my ability to do it, myefficacy, was based on the

(48:56):
business context in which therelationship was formed.
So basically, I was coming inas a business, as an ops
consultant, early stage ops andby virtue of that engagement was
forming coaching relationshipswith the executive right, the
founder or the owner or a memberof the you know kind of
understanding and seeing theintersectionality of the

(49:31):
strategic, operational andtactical and helping businesses
set up to scale and make a lotof money.
I love doing that.
I'm not, you know, I have nosort of qualms about admitting
that, that that revenue growthis a metric I really care about.
It makes me feel good to makethings that make a lot of money.
I get fed by that energeticallyand it's also like that created

(49:55):
a softer slope.
I'm not quick to like formrelationships.
I don't identify as somebodywho's like particularly a people
person.
Right, I love people, but I'm aslower build and that build was
happening in the context of aconsulting relationship that I

(50:15):
was very confident andcomfortable in With coaching.
If you go straight to coachinglike you're getting on the call
with people and expected to likedeliver value right away,
particularly in this culture,people want results so fast and
I was like, well, I'm notactually great at that ramp up,
that quick ramp up, and I don'tnecessarily love these

(50:39):
conversations.
I missed the business part ofit and I had kind of designed my
life so that I was doing thebusiness-focused work in a pro
bono capacity.
So last year I became anentrepreneur in residence at the
University of Miami and I wasalso I'm a mentor in the venture
mentoring team, which is probono mentoring for startups and

(51:01):
small businesses, and I was like, okay, I'm putting my brain to
work in that capacity and I'mgoing to focus on coaching and I
separated the two things and itreally wasn't until six months
in where I was like, nope, it'sthe combination.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
You got to be together.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
It's got to be together.
That's what lights me up, and Iliterally can't have a single
conversation with anyone withouttrying to insinuate myself into
their business model.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
What do you do?
Let me help.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yeah, right, I mean, we've had conversations like
that.
I'm just like I go straightinto it and so now it finally
feels like, oh, I've brought itall together and what's really
special about it is I'm focusedon working with founders and
small business owners who are atthe point where bringing in the
customers is no longer theproblem.
Right, the growth is happening.
The problem is, the earlysystems and culture are

(51:53):
fragmenting under the pressureof that growth.
Right, because typically, likeyour, early systems and culture
are built around familiarity andintimacy and just like this is
how we work together.
And then at a certain point,it's like everybody's
overstretched, everyone's burntout, the owner hates what
they've built, people aremiserable that used to be happy

(52:13):
and really believe in themission.
Processes are broken.
The Google Drive is a shit show, right, everything's a mess.
And where I love coming in atthat point because not only is,
like my systems and processbrain, super helpful, but I can
address the burnout as well.
Because, right, then it's aboutokay, how do we also overlay

(52:34):
boundaries and ways ofcommunicating and ways of
working together that mitigateand protect against the burnout
that people are experiencing,while also improving efficiency
and setting the company up toscale right, so it's really a
magical intersection of all thethings that I love.
So when, when that finally hit,I was like, oh, got it, I got

(52:55):
it.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
I got it.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
You know what I mean.
And I told a couple of friendslike early on, like, well, you
know, I decided to kind of bringthe business piece back into it
, and they were like duh, likeoh right, like it's really what
I'm good at.
And I think then the experiencethat I went through and that
lens and this coaching focusthat I've had just adds a new

(53:20):
human dimension to thebusiness-focused work.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
Yeah, it's another layer and it's starting with
your area of expertise and thenbridging into also an area
that's maybe not quite as to thelevel of the business ops part,
but it's still quite like high.
And then you're using that aslike a secondary, you know
adjacent space to also help andthen it's filling multiple

(53:46):
buckets for you which obviouslyyou didn't have, you know, for a
long time.
So I love it.
I think it's amazing that eventhough it took a while, like you
got there.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Well, I mean, you know, aren't we all on that
journey of iterating Like right?
So I know that you've done acouple of rounds of it as well
and we've talked through.
So what's your latest focus, orwhat are you?

Speaker 1 (54:10):
feeling great about.
Well, my latest is, you know, Istill struggle to sign clients
because I don't do a lot ofoutbound, because I don't really
enjoy that.
And then I think part of it.
My coach, my current coachtells me I have like this
psychological block about likehelping people and like asking
for money, and I sometimes Idon't necessarily dispute that,

(54:33):
but I sometimes wonder, similarto what you're talking about,
with like not jumping in rightaway, because I'm similar to you
, like I'm an introvert andtypically take a while to warm
up.
And then, once I do, and if Iknow you and I trust you and I
like you, then you see adifferent version of me.
Then, like, if that does, ifthat's not the case, then you
see a completely different sideof me, right?

(54:55):
And so I think sometimes it'shard for me in the coaching part
, even though it's contentcoaching, which is not like
super in depth that we're nottalking about typically like
life stuff or trauma or likeanything like that.
I do think I struggled, though,sometimes with that like initial
, like building the relationship, because the people I've had
the most success with are peoplethat I've known for like a bit

(55:18):
of time and so, like I've eitherhad calls with them or I've
seen a lot of their content andwe've messaged and it like
slowly like morphs into likeokay, I want to help you, but
I've had very little successwith just like.
I don't really know you, but wewant to start working together
and then we never really buildany kind of rapport or any
common ground, and then it'sjust kind of awkward.
And so I'm, as you were sayingthat I'm like I wonder what if

(55:41):
there's like another piece thatI'm like missing to bridge the
gap?
Because, like, I am good atcontent, I'm good at creating
content, good at writing content, I'm good at helping people
with their content, but there'slike it's not that simple.
So I'm like there's stillsomething that's like missing,
um, that I haven't quiteidentified yet, but it's all,

(56:02):
it's all an experiment.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
Uh, may I comment?
Sure, we're on your podcast.
You know where I.
I mean, I've we've had priorconversations, mostly at picnic
benches, awkwardly, but you knowyou do such an excellent job of
telling stories right, and youteach other people to tell

(56:24):
stories in the context of yourwork, which I love.
You teach other people to tellstories in the context of your
work, which I love.
That's my second favorite ofyour content pillars is the data
, the analytics and then thestorytelling.
There's something reallyspecial about the arc of your
journey and it's.
You know that.
I just wonder to what extentthat's the missing piece where

(56:49):
you ladder your technicalexpertise to that particular
journey of sort of gettingyourself out of this cycle that
you were in and the pattern thatyou were in and where you are
now.
By the way, your piece recentlyabout your neurodivergence was

(57:12):
incredible and so vulnerable, sospecial and so relatable, right
.
So I know it's uncomfortablefor you to be the thing, but I
wonder if that might be a littlebit more of the thing or just

(57:32):
sort of the architecture of thearc.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely something
there and that's honestly whyI'm so interested in doing which
.
I just learned this You're notsupposed to call it public
speaking.
It's supposed to call itprofessional speaking, which.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
I did not know Okay.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
She was like public speaking is for free,
professional speaking as you getpaid.
Never say public.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
I was like noted, uh, so I'm gonna write that down,
no, just kidding I?

Speaker 1 (57:59):
I'd never heard that before I.
I had always said publicspeaking, but that's apparently
a no-no, um, so that's why I'multimately so interested in
doing public.
See, I just see my default.
My operating system defaultedto what I've said all the time
Got to get that new neuralpathway locked in.
Don't have.
I just learned it like 10 daysago, so it's not there, um,
that's why I want to speak about, like, my story and my journey,

(58:20):
because, you know, I followedthe path that a lot of people
followed right the four yeardegree, the, the good job, and
then good luck and no real plan,and it doesn't really matter,
like, what your values are, whatyou're good at, you just do it
and if it's not aligned, do itanyway.
Um, and then 40 years, make youknow, make it last, um, so it

(58:41):
took me a long time to get outof that and so I think a lot of
people you know can relate tothat part of it.
Content was my ticket out and Ididn't.
Who knew, who knew that wasgoing to be it, um, and speaking
and telling stories and stuff,which is something I've done,
naturally, for my whole life,but I never thought about it in
terms of like getting paid orlike a podcast or speaking or
whatever.
Um, so, yeah, so I mean it'sstill relatively new.

(59:03):
That's why I keep remindingmyself.
I mean, really I'm like eightmonths into this because the
first part I didn't know thiswas going to be a thing, it was
just more of a creative outlet,and then it took several months
where it was like, oh, like I'mpretty good at this, I should
lean into this more.
So I get still really early.
You know, in the grand schemeof life, right, we're talking
milliseconds.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Yeah, so but yeah, I always appreciate your insight
and I think you know there's notshame around it, but feeling

(59:54):
like, oh, I haven't gotten itright yet.
I don't like, I don't see itthat way, it's right, we're
converging, first of all.
We're out here creating, we'reputting ourselves out there.
You know there's an awkwardnessto trying to define an offering
around it, for sure, but withagain, with each cycle, it's
sort of this process ofiterative discovery and
redefinition, and then you landon the point where your identity

(01:00:15):
can show up in an authentic waywithin the context of the offer
, which is where I think we'retalking about with you.
It's like, okay, I've got thestory, the identity intact, and
then the offers over here.
What does it look like tobridge them together?
Because once you can embody theidentity and the story within
the offer, then it's like Ithink it'll be a much more

(01:00:37):
natural experience for you.
You know like, for me, thatinsight of it being that
inflection point in the businessjourney was such an unlock for
me, because not only can Iembody that, I've been there
multiple times in differentcontexts but, it's like I know
exactly who I'm talking to andexactly how my personal

(01:01:00):
experience and my expertiseserves that exact person at that
exact moment in time in theirown journey.
So I can show up to sell in sucha more embodied, confident and
different way than I ever wasbefore.
And I think that's where thesweet spot is right.
Then it just takes us a whileto figure out before that like,

(01:01:24):
okay, what is the angle right?
We're all multidimensionalpeople.
How do I show up within myoffer in a way that, even if I'm
uncomfortable selling, I cansell because I know more than I
know anything else that Ideliver value in that
relationship and that it's anact of service.
It took me just like this wholetime to kind of get to that

(01:01:46):
point where I could show up inthat conversation with no qualms
and no self-consciousness,because I know for sure if
you're in that situation, I amthat person.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
Yeah, it's a great point and it's the confidence
part right, Like once you reallyfind your lane or your niche,
whatever you want to call it,and you really feel aligned with
that, then it's not reallyselling anymore, because you're
just talking about what you loveand what you're good at and
then the rest of it just kind ofhappens naturally.
So I think you're right interms of a little bit of the
disconnect where it still feelskind of salesy because it's not

(01:02:20):
quite like perfectly alignedright.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
The other thing too.
I think and I'm sure thatyou've had this or experienced
it where, like when you'rereally good at something, then
you take it for granted.
Because I was saying to mycoach like I didn't feel like I
was really helping people thatmuch and she was like why would
you say that?
And so I, you know, rattled offthings and she was like how do
you know that that wasn't allsuper valuable to them just
because you didn't think it waslike that much or that big a

(01:02:44):
deal was like that much or thatbig a deal, or it was like, oh,
this is like relatively minor.
She was like most of the peopleyou're working with had no idea,
like everything you taught themand showed them was all like
brand new and it was supervaluable.
So you, I think it's hardsometimes because like content's
so easy for me and like tellingstories is so easy I don't even
have to really think about it.
Well, that's not the case for alot of people, and so I have to
like keep reminding myself thatlike people actually really

(01:03:06):
struggle with this.
So it is valuable and contentis very important, especially if
you're trying to grow yourbusiness.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Yeah, and seeing the opportunity for content to be a
path, a new path right, is, Ithink, really special.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
Yeah and um.
I've had a lot of people pushme to start a YouTube channel so
I can do more.
I can do longer videos where Imake fun of things and because I
made fun of the movie Halloweenand people like that.
So they were like I want to seemore of it.
And then we watched the Shiningthe next night, and so the
whole time watching it.
I'm like, all right, that's aplot hole, that's a plot hole,
that's a plot hole.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Jack Daniels is not bourbon.
Okay, I've got something towork with here, so yeah, well,
the whole first 20 minutes ofthis conversation before we
started recording.

Speaker 1 (01:03:57):
Probably not the topical direction you want to go
down.
Yeah, I'd probably wait on that.
We're recording this onNovember 6th, by the way, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
But yeah, and the stand-up.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
The stand-up and it's like maybe part of it is the
OCD.
Maybe it's like maybe part ofit is the OCD, maybe it's just
the way my brain is wired, butmy whole life I'm always
observing things.
When I go out, literally to runone errand, I feel like I have
five stories and all I wanted todo was go to Kroger to get two
things, but the person in frontof me was too slow.
No-transcript, it's not 1972anymore.

(01:04:32):
You didn't have to turn on oneof three channels to be like
what is the temperature outside?
You also could have just stuckyour head outside, but you
didn't do that.
If you roll out here, we'regoing to wait for two hours
outside in four-degree weathershoes and some sweatpants on.
Like come on.
So like that kind of stuff, andlike I just like I see all of
this stuff and like I don'treally have an outlet for it.
So they're like you just needto like start a channel and then

(01:04:53):
you just like can tell thesestories and it's like
entertainment.
So I'm like okay maybe um, butthat's like what I do, and so I
think I think that's my ultimategoal.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
If I can just get paid to talk and tell stories,
and if they're funny, fine, ifthey're not, also fine, if
they're not also fine, I thinkthat's ultimately like if I can
get there, if I can make moneydoing that, I think I'll have
finally found it up thing, itwas great, like it's so cool

(01:05:30):
that you did that and you know,right, showing up as a yes and
you know, maybe even if you'renot naturally inclined to be a
yes, that was a big thing for meor like, in terms of my
orientation, this year was justlike, all right, I'm going to be
a yes for as much as possible,right, and that like you're
learning about yourself and theworld and every single one of
those opportunities and it'shelping you to kind of converge

(01:05:50):
on the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
So yeah, yeah, it's all it's like it's once.
Once I really adopted themindset of looking at it as an
experiment and not as a failure,which I would have done, like
previous versions of me wouldhave already.
Frankly, I probably alreadywould have quit, cause I would
be like it's not going to work,I'm not making enough money, I
need to go back to.
I just need to go get a job,even if I hate it, cause we just
need the cash and whatever I'll, maybe I'll come back to it.

(01:06:12):
I probably won't like a hundredpercent, I would have already
done that, but just on this kindof whatever journey I'm on,
it's a little bit longer andlike eventually it'll just like
work itself out.
That's what I keep telling mywife, because she's always like
what, what, this is you're, thisis still like you're, still I

(01:06:36):
don't.
What are we going to do?
and I'm like five to ten yearplan, like we're thinking long
term here, like this is not along game, yeah this is not the
8 to 12 month, like oh no we'regoing to pack it in like we're.
We're like a decade plan andshe was like we don't have
enough money for a decade.
I was like I am, I am aware ofthat, I will figure that out
along the way, but, like you,have the side plan, yeah, yeah

(01:06:59):
yeah, you have to think longerterm.
Um, so that's yeah, so it's,that's a different.
I mean, that's different for meto even like consider that, let
alone try to actively embraceit.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
You're doing a ton of work to get you there.
I mean shout out to personalgrowth and therapist right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):
Yeah, yeah, that's huge right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
We're able to kind of sit with ourselves and hold
space for ourselves and becomfortable in the uncertainty
in ways that neither one of uswould have been able to before,
and that's huge.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Oh yeah, it's amazing .
Honestly, I would have, ifyou'd have told me, even like
two months, two years ago, thatI would do it, I'd be like
probably not.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Do what?
Therapy or no?

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
no Like the gray area , like the uncertainty, like
embracing the uncertainty, causeI hate it so much right, like I
always want, like the mostcertain outcome and the research
, and like I know how it's goingto go, even though you don't.
It's all an illusion, but youhave that illusion of safety and
outcome and now to be like Ihave no idea, I really have no
clue.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Did you know?
It was an illusion before yougot to this point where you were
comfortable with theuncertainty.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
A little before, but it's a relatively recent.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
They go together right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Yeah, it's a recent understanding that it was all
like.
I mean, most of our safety isan illusion, right, right, like
in life.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
And most of our control.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Correct, right.
I mean that's why the nine tofive job is such.
I mean it can go away tomorrow,right, they can fire you, they
can let you have no control overany of it.
So even if you love your job,it's, it's an illusion that nine
to five is a daily illusionyeah it just is, um, and so many
other things like that.
So I think once I really startedto like, look at that more

(01:08:38):
closely and tap into it, it waslike all right, like everything
I thought was safe theguaranteed paycheck and the
benefits and all that stuff andI, like everybody went through
layoffs and downsizes, you knowall that kind of stuff Um, you
start to realize that, likethere isn't, it doesn't really,
it doesn't really exist, um, solet's create something for
myself that I have control overand you know if I can make that

(01:09:00):
work and I don't have to berelying on you know any of that
stuff.
But yeah, it took well, it tooka lot, a lot of ups and downs
and therapists and books andcoaches Like, yeah, a lot, I
could write a book probably juston, just on that, just on that
part, yeah, um and I'm sure youcould do the same thing.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Perhaps we will.
You'll professionally speak itand I'll write the book.
There we go the audio book.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
I hadn't thought about that.
Uh, the audio book.
I hadn't thought about that.
Uh, the audio book that Iremember that was when I was
stuck in the cubicle which was,I mean, I haven't really.
I haven't actually reallytouched on that in my content.
I don't know why I'm saving it.
I have so many cubicle stories,um.
But there was one day, I don'tknow, I was talking and the
woman next to me who I didn'teven know that well, she was

(01:09:44):
like you have a voice for radio.
She was like you should be onradio and I was like okay, so
here we are, 12 years later.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
I'm coming to fruition yeah, slow cycle time,
but that's okay very, very slow.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
Yeah, 2012 um took me .
It took me a while to get thememo.
Um, this has been great.
Uh, we're at an hour 10.
I guess we should probably wrapthis up.
We could certainly go for muchlonger Absolutely Appreciate all
of your insights, yourforthright and your journey and
the struggles and whatnot and Iknow you talked about, and we

(01:10:18):
touched on it, the joys andfrustrations of running your own
business.
What would you?
Somebody listening, that's kindof, in that you know and really
struggling, whether it'smentally or financially or just
like it's a lot and you don'treally understand how a lot it
is until you try to do itBecause it looks pretty easy
from the outside.
And then you start doing it andyou're like, oh, I'm now

(01:10:41):
responsible for everything.
It can be overwhelming.
So, like what would you?
What would you kind of say?

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
What would kind of be your you know advice or course
of action to take?
Yeah, I mean such a greatquestion and I think you nailed
it.
A lot of people in thatposition feel like they're alone
, right, because at that pointin the growth trajectory, to
even the people that might havecome in early that they have,
you know, a personalrelationship with, are still
depending on them to be thedecision maker and to pay the
you know, pay the bills and makepayroll and all the things.
So there's, there is a dividethere.

(01:11:14):
So partly, I mean it's you know, find your people to talk to.
Obviously I'm an advocate forcoaching, consulting, therapy,
but community, and then you knowit's the repeatable patterns, I
think, are the easiest place tostart.
So look at the things thatyou're doing over and over again
and what is the way to do those?

(01:11:36):
Better, smarter, less manually,less painfully, because it's
just kind of like in you know, Italk a lot about capturing the
tiny pockets of time that wehave.
A lot of times when we're inburnout, we're just like, oh, I
have five minutes, but I'm goingto fill it in another email or
I'm going to make that call andwe seed that time, we give it up

(01:11:58):
and then we're just kind ofstill stuck in that burnout, and
so part of what I do in anindividual capacity is like
let's claim that time foryourself, and not only does that
give you a tiny bit ofbreathing room, but it's like a
way to show up in your agencyand once you reclaim your agency
now you're on a different pathbecause you're not in this
mindset that things arehappening to you In running a

(01:12:21):
business.
It's like, okay, what are thepatterns that, if you can
address them, create thosepockets of time right For there
to be breathing room for thewhole organization, or for you
to capture that efficiency right, that capacity, and redirect it
towards something else that'sgoing to solve a problem that
you have.
I just think there's so much.
I'm a pattern person, a dataperson, as we talked about, and

(01:12:44):
really looking at those patternsand finding one, just like,
pick one and say how can I I'mdoing this over and over again
right, it's like mopping up thewater instead of turning off the
faucet.
So what can I do to stopmopping furiously to prevent
myself from drowning?
And where is the faucet?
And how can I get to thatfaucet?
Right, and just give yourself alittle bit of relief and then

(01:13:07):
suddenly you can step into thatspace.
It really starts to createsignificant changes if you're
doing that in small, you knowsmall steps over and over again.

Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
Yeah, that's a great analogy.
If you haven't written thatpost, you should, because I
think that really resonates andit's very it makes a lot of
sense.
If you're identifying with that, you're like, oh okay, yeah,
like, stop, stop continuing toclean up.
Um, avoid the cleanup in thefirst place.
I think that's really good.
Um, yeah, you know, I wastalking to my friend, uh,

(01:13:38):
margaret Jennings.
She's in Toronto.
I don't know if you know her.
Um, I should connect you to youguys.
You guys would get along well.
But, um, a call, I believe itwas last week and we were just
talking about what you'rementioning with the like, the
loneliness of when you're doingyour own thing, and especially
if the people in your life arealso doing it, which typically
is the case because they'reusually working, you know, kind

(01:13:59):
of regular jobs um, is that youdon't have that space.
You don't have a space to ventor to just talk through problems
or ideas.
You're just always kind ofstuck like in your head or in
your notebook or whatever.
And so she was like she wasthinking about creating like a
small group, cause she was.
She was relating it to, like,you know, the water cooler in an

(01:14:19):
office where, even if youdidn't really like the job.
You typically like some of thepeople and so you had people to
like how was your weekend, howare your kids Like?
You know you had that socialaspect which then gave you
something back, even if the workwasn't great.
She was like but now, when you,that's been totally taken away,
like you don't really have likethe water cooler time in this
like online social platform.
Maybe if we just had a calllike every two weeks and just

(01:14:42):
you know, five to 10 people geton where you have that
opportunity, like what did youdo this weekend?
Kids games and like all thestuff.
So, yeah, I think it's a greatidea, because I do think there
is some of that that you losewhere you're just like with
yourself all the time, with yourbusiness all the time, which I
also think is why it's hard tocome up with ideas for your own
business, because you're in itso much you're talking about in

(01:15:02):
the kitchen, right in it, not onit, and it's very hard to make
that like distinction.
So if you have other peoplethat aren't, it's much easier
for them to be like what aboutthis?
You're like oh yeah, I neverthought about that, absolutely,
absolutely Makes a hugedifference.
So we didn't talk about the dogs, we did not talk about bike
riding, we didn't talk aboutyour time by design, like we

(01:15:22):
missed like three like majortalking points.

Speaker 2 (01:15:25):
So you'll have to come back on and I was gonna say
I'll see you in 2025.
There you go, we'll talk aboutthat?

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):
uh, because we both have boys.
Mine are just a little bitolder.
Which one of yours wears thejerseys all the time, does he
still?
Do that, that's jude the futureprofessional footballer okay,
yeah, um, he's still stillrocking the jerseys my states
every day, all day long yeah,like the full, like the socks
and everything, like the wholething.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
Well, he's moved away .
He used to wear the full kittedall the time.
Now he only wears the full kitif he's playing soccer.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
Okay, all right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
He then wears the jersey and normal bottoms and
socks for school, school, okay.
There's not a day where he'snot wearing some sort of soccer
paraphernalia.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
And is it usually like his team or is it like the
professionals?

Speaker 2 (01:16:10):
No, usually the professionals Professional
jerseys yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
Who's his favorite player?

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
Right now, you mean them all.

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
Top like two or three .

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
Ronaldo.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean he caught the wave after the World
Cup or during the World Cup andI think, like every time I go
to tryouts, the 2015 cohort ismassive, I think, all those kids
skipped the stage of I want tobe an astronaut, I want to be a
firefighter, I want to be apoliceman.
I went straight to I'm going tobe a professional football
player yeah because it's likeliterally there'll be 12 kids at

(01:16:42):
the tryout in every other yearand the 2015s is like 100.
I'm like j, you really got tostep it up.
If you're plus, we're in Miami,so the market is really
competitive here.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
Yeah Well, because you've got messy right now.
Right, well, yeah, and it's.

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
You know, these kids have been playing soccer since
they were in the womb.
Basically, it's like culturallyit's a huge sport here.

Speaker 1 (01:17:04):
Well, I mean it's definitely growing, I think,
think just in the states overall, and especially with, like, the
football concussions, I thinkthere's kids that maybe would
have played like regulartraditional american football
that have moved to soccer, eventhough there's some concussion
issues with soccer but it's notnearly as yeah, not nearly as
prevalent.
I know they're doing like youknow no head balls until they're
like 16 and like all that kindof stuff, but yeah, um, so I

(01:17:25):
think that's part of it.
And then, like you said, likethe coverage, like premier
league games are on here rightlike a lot.
My kids will watch premierleague games and they like
liverpool and arsenal and likeknow the teams and the jerseys
and stuff.
So like that was not happening,like when I was a kid.

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
Like jude asked me all the time and I'm like I have
no idea.
It wasn't a thing you know itwasn't like I.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
I think I was in college and my roommate he like
he knew the Premier League.
That was like the first timethat I think I even knew that,
like it existed, and yeah, it'slike a totally different world.
But it's just, you know, withtechnology and like digital and
streaming and stuff, like wejust didn't have access to it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
But no, I love it.
I to it Absolutely, but no, Ilove it.
I love when you do the picturesand, like he always, he's
always decked out, always.
So, as we wrap up, what?
How can people reach you?
I'm pretty sure you have awebsite, obviously your LinkedIn
profile.
If you want to give that out,I'll put that in the show notes
too.
And then any final, any finalparting words yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
So on LinkedIn it's a great place I post, as we
already discussed, on a regularbasis there as Time, by Design
or Nicole Green it's G-R-E-E-N-E, and then my website is Nicole
J Green, so same green with an Eat the end dot com, and that's
where you can find all of themyriad offerings and different

(01:18:44):
touch points and downloads toaddress limiting beliefs and
finding your fulfillment and allof the good stuff that we
touched on here.
And, yeah, parting thoughts.
Thank you so much for having me.
You know I was having majorFOMO watching all of your
podcast posts, so I appreciatethat you allowed me to suggest
myself.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
That's a good way to put it.
Yeah, no, I was.
Yeah, I should have had you onearlier.
I'm so appreciative that youcame on.

Speaker 2 (01:19:12):
I'm not shitting.

Speaker 1 (01:19:14):
There's no shitting um super grateful for you and
your friendship and your insightand being there and support
means a lot to me and Iappreciate coming on.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
Thank you likewise thanks for having me.

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