EP 36: Copy That Doesn't Suck: The Real Deal on Writing for Impact with Stacy Eleczko

Join Stacy Eleczko and me for a conversation about:

1️⃣ Your Words Might Be Repelling Clients (Without You Realizing It)

• The hidden psychology behind business messaging and why "sounding good" isn’t enough.
• Many business owners struggle not because of bad offers but because they fail to communicate their unique value effectively.

2️⃣ The Difference Between Generic Copy & Strategic Messaging

• Why most entrepreneurs overlook buyer psychology when writing their website copy.
• How messaging that speaks to audience needs, desires, and decision-making processes leads to conversions.

3️⃣ Building a Business Through Authenticity, Not Influence

• Stacey shares how she’s grown her business through LinkedIn connections, not chasing likes.
• The power of relationship-driven marketing over traditional "influencer" tactics.

4️⃣ Why Pulp Fiction is one of the Greatest Movies ever made

• You dig it the most
• Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead

Stacy's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/copybystacy/

Stacy's Website: https://stacyeleczko.com/

David's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-young-mba-indy/

David's Website: https://davidjyoung.me/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Real you Podcast.
This is episode number 36.
I'm David Young, your host.
I'm a LinkedIn content andbusiness coach.
I help coaches with less than3,000 followers sign more
clients using content andLinkedIn more strategically.
I launched this podcast inMarch of 2024 to spotlight
interesting people doing amazingthings, and today I'm joined by
Stacey Olesko, a messagingstrategist and website

(00:21):
copywriter for impact-drivenbrands.
Stacey helpsbusiness-to-business brands find
clarity on what sets them apartand communicates that with bold
, compelling copy that helpsthem attract the right clients,
shorten the sales cycle andbuild trust.
She believes you can be drivenby making an impact and an
income.
She also is a self-proclaimedbook nerd and a cookie
connoisseur, and in this episodewe're going to talk why so many

(00:43):
people struggle withcopywriting and she says it is a
lot more than just writingcatchy copy, which I'm sure is
true and how she's built herbusiness during LinkedIn and
networking.
And finally, we'll talk aboutour mutual love of Pulp Fiction,
which I actually could talk thewhole episode about, so we will
try not to delve into thisbeing just a complete breakdown
of that movie.
So, stacey, thanks so much forjoining me.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to talk with you.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, appreciate it.
Yeah, so we won't start.
We'll start with Pulp Fictionbriefly.
We'll come back to it Because,like I said, we could just go
the whole hour.
So I saw that movie in thetheater, I was 19.
And it just turned 30 last fall, so that gives away my age.
But but I quote it so oftenthat when I met my wife in 2001,

(01:27):
she didn't realize that likehalf of my vocabulary was from
that movie.
And then the next time wewatched it she was like this is
everything that you say.
You just literally, you justsay this movie.
I'm like well, it's so good,why wouldn't I?
And she was like you don't haveanything original.
I'm like Tarantino says itbetter than I do, so I just I'm
just stealing it anyway right,exactly, if it works right, it's

(01:48):
not broke yeah, yeah, exactly,um, but yeah, I still.
I haven't seen it all the waythrough in a long time, but I do
still, I do still quote from itquite a bit.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
I was just thinking that when, uh, you know I was
getting ready to talk with youand I'm like I haven'tp Fiction
all the way through in a reallylong time.
It's time to you know, watch itagain.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, you know it's funny.
As much as I love the movie Imean it's easily one of my top
five all time it might even beat the top.
I'd have to think about it.
But my only.
I only have two major concernsand I typically will not watch
it straight through.
One is I do not like theChristopher Walken scene when
he's talking to young Butchabout the watch.
Now, I know that's critical tothe plot, but I just can't watch

(02:29):
him talk about that.
It just really bothers me.
And the second part is Bruce.
Also, butch Butch's girlfrienddrives me absolutely up the wall
.
I cannot stand all any.
I know she's not in it thatmuch, but that scene in the
hotel just drives me crazy.
I'm like how did Tarantino notcut this?
Like this is we don't need her.
Butch can just be in the hotelby himself, like we don't need
her.
It doesn't add anything to themovie and it drives me crazy.

(02:51):
And the only saving grace isthe very last line, because when
he comes back and she's likewhose motorcycle is this?
And he's like it's a chopper,and she Zed, who's Zed?
Zed's dead baby, and thenthat's it.
So that kind of saves it, buteverything leading up to that I
can't.
So that's the only reason Iwould probably not keep it at
one.
The rest of the movie, I think,is flawless.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
That's hysterical.
I love how specific you are.
I do not like these two pieces.
I can't watch them.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
Yeah, because I feel like to be the greatest movie
ever.
I should be able to just pressplay and just watch the whole
thing, but I won't.
I will fast forward those twoscenes.
I can't listen to her voice andI can't listen to the walk-in
scene.
The rest of it I'm pretty goodwith.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
So what is your favorite scene?

Speaker 1 (03:33):
That's hard to say.
There's so many great ones.
I mean I could do from the timethat Jules and Vincent are
driving at the beginning afterthe initial diner scene, when
they're driving Jungle Boogie'son.
I can probably quote.
I could probably do every line,like all the way through the
apartment scene, like with Brett, like I think I could do it.

(03:55):
I haven't seen it in a whilebut I think I could probably get
every line.
There's something about thatwhole exchange, like in the car,
out of the car in the car, outof the car in the hotel lobby or
in the hallway, and then thewhole apartment scene with with
jules is like that's like thefifth, that might be the 15 best
minutes, like in the history ofmovie, like the eating the
burger, the sprite, the guy onthe couch, travolta smoking the

(04:18):
cigarette in the back, and thenthat whole dialogue, like it's
that, that whole thing is.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
I think it's like, honestly, it's so good I
guarantee you, if you looked uplike iconic pulp fiction scenes,
that would be the top everysingle time yeah, it's just, I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
There's just something about it, especially
when you don't really knowwhat's happening.
You're just like what?
Like what's going on?
Like you, you think they're badguys and they are, but they're
so likable but you have no ideawhose other guys are and you're
like what's in the case?
And then they're like eatingand just the whole, just the
whole sequence, and then justthe whole thing, like just
samuel jackson's delivery ofthose lines leading into the

(04:53):
bible verse which is made up.
It's not even a real bibleverse.
Uh, they just made.
They just made that up for themovie, but uh, just that whole
thing is, it's just gold, likeit's.
That's perfect, honestly I loveit.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, they're so philosophical right like it's
perfect, honestly, I love it.
Yeah, they're so philosophicalright Like it's this violent and
these awful scenes and thingsthat are happening and then they
talk about, you know, thisdivine intervention and all of
that.
I love it.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
Well, that's the beauty is right, because it
takes a while to really likeunderstand.
You have to watch it severaltimes to even piece it all
together.
Right, because it's sodisjointed.
But piece it all together rightbecause it's so disjointed, but
it's, it's amazing because youstart in the diner, you go to
that scene, all this other stuffhappens, but they end up back
in the diner, which is brilliantbecause that's where it like
all comes together.
But it's confusing becauserevolt has been killed, so that
throws people off, just likewhat he's dead.

(05:35):
No, that's that was before.
Like oh, um, but then, yeah,like samuel jackson has this
whole like epiphany and like youknow, I love that scene of the
antitech.
Normally I would have justkilled you and like I wouldn't
even thought about it, but youcaught me in a transitional
period.
Then he goes through like thewhole.
He does the whole bible verseagain, but he like breaks it
down into like it could meanlike these three things, and
then he finally says what itmeans, like that's like

(05:57):
tarantino, it's just genius, thewhole thing's brilliant it was
genius and I think that castright Like they just couldn't
have picked better people.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
It was amazing, yep.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean it was a realrenaissance for Travolta and I
mean Samuel L Jackson was knownat that time but not the way
he's known now.
And I think it just, yeah,really put Travolta kind of back
on the map and vaulted Samuel LJackson.
But I mean I know tarantinohasn't done a ton of movies,

(06:28):
which is kind of his thing, butI think pulp fiction's by far
and away like like his, his bestwork for sure, yes, and I love
with herman too well, yeah, yeah, so for sure, anyway.
So that was probably too much.
That was like five minutes onpulp fiction.
People were already like Ithought you said this wasn't
going to be an hour on PulpFiction.
You're like, it's all you'vetalked about.
Yeah, my apologies, it'stotally my fault, my show, my
fault, but we might come back toit because, again, I love it so

(06:51):
much.
So, yeah, so thanks for comingon.
So we know each other fromLinkedIn.
We've had a call at least onecall, maybe two.
I think you helped me with someefficiency stuff stuff a while
back.
Yeah, so just talk a little bitabout your background and then
like how you found LinkedIn andwe'll take it from there.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Transitioned out of education.
I had been in teaching in avariety of roles for a long time
and had been looking to make ashift, and that was when I
discovered copywriting and didnot realize I was launching not
only into a new craft but alsointo figuring out how to be an
entrepreneur.
So I'm glad I didn't know whatI didn't know because I probably

(07:27):
wouldn't be here.
But yeah, so I eased in.
I started building mycopywriting business on the side
while I was still working fulltime, you know, slowly worked my
way until I was able to resignfrom my job and just focus on my
business full time.
And in the meantime I neededsomething that felt like kind of
, I think, low hanging fruit.
Right, where can I start tonetwork and grow my business?

(07:49):
I didn't really know much aboutLinkedIn, but I was told you
should be on LinkedIn.
So I hopped on, realized Iactually had created a profile I
don't know, I think, in like2012, 2013,.
Hadn't touched it since and,just you know, got on there to
sort of see what all the fusswas about.
Um did all the classic thingsthat everybody does, I think
when you start on LinkedIn.

(08:09):
Followed all the wrong people,um, stressed about the hours it
would take me to write a postand almost gave up on it.
And then, um, I was like therehas to be something else to what
I'm doing, and I think Irealized my goal is to grow my
business, not to be a LinkedIninfluencer, so I need to not
follow the people whose job itis is to build influence on

(08:33):
LinkedIn.
And I think once I made thatrealization and started actually
meeting people, I realized thatit was really.
It was a platform for buildingrelationships and connections,
not just like a lead generationsystem.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, yeah.
No, it's a great point aboutthe difficulty of
entrepreneurship.
I don't think any of us wouldhave started this if we actually
knew how hard it was.
We would have been like, allright, we'll just keep working.
It sucks, but we'll just do itanyway.
Yeah, it's a lot, and nobodyreally, like you said, nobody
realizes how much it is untilyou start doing it and you're
like, oh my god, there's so muchthat's interesting about the

(09:08):
content and you almost gave up.
I think a lot of people.
I think that resonates with alot of people because content
creation comes pretty easily forme.
It even did when I started,even though I didn't know what I
was doing.
I'm a natural storyteller, so Ican go to the Kroger right now
and come back with two storiesthat are 20 minutes long.
It just happens to me.
People get in the way and I makefun of them and then they've

(09:29):
never checked out at the grocerystore before and I draw that
and then whatever.
But that's not normal.
I understand that now fromtalking to enough people.
A lot of people struggle.
I don't know what to writeabout or how to write it.
I don't even know what storiesto tell or is this relevant, and
so I do.
I think a lot of people likeget very frustrated like very
quickly, and especially if youdo start looking at people that

(09:52):
have been doing it for likeyears and years, like the big,
the big people that havehundreds of thousands of
followers right, and then youknow they do one post and it
gets a million reactions in like20 seconds and so're like oh
well, I'll never get there andso I'm out.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
So I'm glad that you got away from that and kind of
found your kind of found yourlane in your tribe yes, well,
and I think I felt like I had toshow my expertise right and
that it didn't feel like a goodfit for me.
And everybody kept talkingabout just tell stories, just
tell stories, and I was like Idon't know what you mean by just
tell stories.
And then it's now, it's like ohwell, that's natural, just
makes sense, right?
You just, you tell a story.
It feels so easy.

(10:26):
But I think for me it was, youknow, being new to business and
being new to copywriting at thewell, I mean, I had some
copywriting under my belt, butwhen I you know, I was newer in
the space and so I was like, oh,how many stories do I really
have to tell?
And then the more you meetpeople and the more clients you
work with, the easier that piecebecomes.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, for sure.
I've talked to people, not evenlike a sales call, just in a
connection call, and I'll askthem a little bit about their
background and they'll rattleoff for two or three minutes
about all this stuff and I'llsay to them that's at least 10
to 15 pieces of content.
And to them, that's at least 10to 15 pieces of content.
And they're like really, Ithought that was none.
I'm like no, that's important,especially if you're trying to
grow a business.
People want to know where didyou come from?

(11:10):
What did you do before?
How did you get here?
Why are you here?
If you've done anything for anyperiod of time, you've learned
lessons.
You've worked for bad bosses,good bosses, crappy companies,
good companies, co, like allthis stuff.
Even if you work traditionaloffice jobs, you have all of
that adds to whatever it is thatyou're doing right.
So people want to do that,because then they start to see

(11:32):
themselves in that and they'veeither experienced that or not.
But it's important.
But I think a lot of people yeah, like you said, you struggle
and I think that's why we see alot of content.
Or I see a lot of content.
I feel like it's just verysurface level.
It's like how-to tips, like 10ways to feel better or 10 ways
to do this or whatever, which isfine, but I can Google that If

(11:53):
I want to know about that.
Gpt, google and YouTube cantell me almost anything I want
to know.
So there's no new information,but I want to hear it from you.
What's your experience?
How do you use it or how haveyou used it Like?
I think that's where peoplelike get tripped up and don't
understand like why it's soimportant to tell that part of
it.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Absolutely yeah, that's always my thing.
I'm like if somebody can justGoogle this or take my name off
it, I don't need to post aboutit.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, and I wish more people.
I wish more people would keepwould keep that in mind.
I wish more people would keepthat in mind.
There'd be a lot less content,I think.
So when you finally moved fullforce into copywriting, what was
your initial Not necessarilybusiness plan, but what was your
offer?
How were you trying to marketthat service?

Speaker 2 (12:36):
So do you mean Ask me again?

Speaker 1 (12:39):
Like trying to offer your copywriting services?
Were you trying to help?
Was it always web copy?
Were you trying to help peoplewrite emails Like?
In what capacity were you liketrying to use like your
copywriting background?

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, so I started off with website copywriting.
And then what I realized withwebsite copywriting is that my
clients were coming to me andthey wanted a website that
sounded better and I could dothat for them.
But they didn't necessarilyhave all the foundation,
foundational pieces in place.
Right, the strategy to makesure that the words were not

(13:13):
just going to sound nice, butthey would actually be effective
and help them sell more of whatthey offer and that's how I got
into messaging strategy wasthis idea of really like you
have to have a real deepunderstanding of your audience.
You have to have anunderstanding of buyer
psychology, right?
It's not just about writingcopy, it's about all of these

(13:33):
underlying research pieces thatare going to make your copy
effective.
And so that was how I startedgetting into the messaging
strategy piece.
So my offer from the beginningreally has been website
copywriting, and then it gotmarried with website copywriting
with messaging strategy.
The thing I love about websitecopywriting is it gives me a
chance to start to buildrelationships with clients who

(13:55):
then might come back later andsay, hey, now I'm working on my
email list, or I'm strugglingwith lead magnets for my email
list, or hey, I have the salespage for this course that I'm
launching.
So I definitely do those otherpieces for my clients too.
Um, but more and more recentlypeople have been coming to me
for messaging strategy,specifically um, with or without
the website.

(14:15):
So I would say when I firstmade that shift to like full
time and just focusing on umcopywriting and I'm no longer at
my job it was that websitecopywriting and messaging
strategy that that's what I waspromoting the most as a done for
you service.
But then also I have it as adone with you service, just

(14:36):
because people were essentiallyasking.
They were coming and sayinglike, hey, I would love to work
with you, it's not in my budget,you know what can we do and I
wanted to make sure I could helpthose people.
So long winded answer.
It's sort of evolved but stayedthe same.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
No, I like that and I totally feel you on the done
with you and done for you.
I think I think the done foryou sounds great until you tell
them how much that costs andthey're like let's do it
together.
Yeah, yes.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, and some clients like that piece of it.
Right, they want to.
You know I've had some clientswho actually could afford the
done with you services or not.
You shouldn't say like it wasin their budget to do that.
But when we talk about whatgoes into the messaging and they
recognize that sometimes whenyou do it collaboratively, it's
a deeper understanding you haveof your business and they've

(15:27):
actually opted for that instead.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
Interesting?
Yeah, cause they want to maybefeel like a little more part of
it instead of just just givingyou everything.
Now I think you recentlylaunched a.
It's like a boot, it's like amessaging bootcamp.
Um, how did that?
How did that kind of come to be?

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yes.
So that all started with andactually this all started with.
I had the done for youmessaging strategy service.
I had a client who came to meoriginally for, so I started
with done with you website.
I had a client who came to mefor the done with you website
and as we were having theconversation, I said you know, I
don't think it's time for youto invest yet because there's

(16:02):
some messaging pieces thatyou've got to figure out.
And so we started talking aboutmessaging and he said do you
have a done with you messagingyou know package?
And I didn't.
But I was like, let's figure itout.
Yes, we're going to create thisdone with you messaging
strategy package.
So I did it.
I created um, basically took thesystem that I was using,

(16:23):
crafted it into a workbook andhad a session before for
strategy session so I could makesure I could point them in the
right direction.
And then a strategy coachingsession at the end.
And I asked him you know like,hey, I have this while you beta
test it for me, got a few otherpeople to beta test it and they
all loved it.
They had really, really goodresults.
But what happened with everysingle person?

(16:44):
It was.
There was some point where Igot a text or an email or a DM
on LinkedIn where they wereoverwhelmed and stuck, and so
the feedback I got fromeverybody was this just would
have been helpful, either brokeninto smaller chunks or with
little bits of support andaccountability along the way.
And that's where I realized Ihave this huge back.

(17:05):
Extensive background ineducation.
I know how to do that.
Why am I not leveraging theskills and expertise I already
have with creating courses andbuilding collaborative
communities to create the cohort?
So that was how that came to be.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Nice.
I love that you were able tobridge your, you know, kind of
previous, you know work lifeinto this one.
It's always nice when you feellike not that that was a waste,
because, like we talked aboutearlier, you're always learning.
But when you can really applyit, like directly, apply it to
what you're doing, I feel likethat's even that even feels
better Because it's reallyintegrated nicely.
So I'm happy you were able todo that.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah, that's been a huge win for me.
I didn't realize really howmuch of this, how many of the
skills that I had weretransferable, and so many, so
many of them, it's like directlytransferable skills to what I'm
doing.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
No, I love that, now that you've done, to gone
through that you've obviouslyrefined it is that I assume
that's something you're going tokind of keep, that'll kind of
continue to be part of your, ofyour offer and your package.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
I think.
So that's that's sort of nextstage of my business is figuring
out exactly what pieces youknow really about simplifying
and focusing things in 2025.
That's that's the big thing forme, and so I for sure I'm
focusing on continuing to doboth done for you with website
copywriting and messagingstrategy, and done with you, and

(18:27):
what I'm thinking through nowis that piece of where do
cohorts fit, or maybe smallerworkshops, and what does that
look like in the bigger picture?
Also, another big goal I haveis speaking engagements, getting
on more stages and doing moretraining and workshops.
So, yeah, I'm figuring out whatthat's going to look like.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Nice yeah, so I know you did.
You went to Donnie's.
Uh, is it Boivin?
Is that his last name?

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Bovin is actually how you say it.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Okay, bovin.
Um, you went to his event inSeptember in Dallas last year.
I know you got to speak brieflythere and then you're doing a
more longer term speaking.
I don't know if it's inSeptember or not, but I know
it's later in the year.
So, yeah, talk a little bitabout that.
That was a cool experience.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, that was really cool.
So you know I have a lot ofexperience speaking from
education.
I had done keynotes and longspeeches and, you know, spoken
in front of all kinds ofaudiences before and hadn't done
it, you know, for my ownbusiness, except for I'd been to
a few women's lunches andspoken like that.
But really getting on a stage Ihadn't done.
And so when I went to thesummit last September, one of

(19:32):
the opportunities as a VIP wasto submit a six minute video of
a speech that you would want toget on stage and do, and then
they picked six winners fromthat.
I was one of those people andthen I got on stage and was able
to to deliver mine and, um, asa result of winning that, I get
to go back this september and doa 45 minute one, um, so I'm

(19:55):
super excited about it and I'mjust hoping.
You know the nerves were out ofcontrol, off the charts.
It was very, very like surreal.
I really don't even rememberdelivering the whole thing and
it was so different Because Iwas like this is my business.
Now, this is very differentthan all these other speeches I
had done Because it was so muchmore personal.

(20:17):
So, yeah, it was like nervewracking and really fun all at
the same time.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
That's awesome.
How many people was that infront of?
Nerve wracking and really funall?

Speaker 2 (20:24):
at the same time.
That's awesome.
How many people was that infront of?
Um?
Well, there were 150 people atthe summit, so I don't know if
everybody was still there by thelast day, but there are at
least 100 people in the room.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Okay, and then did you.
So you did you.
I assume you knew beforehandthat you had been selected.
You were able to prep it.
It wasn't like on the spot,correct?

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Well, yes and no, so I did know ahead of time.
Well, yes and no, so I did knowahead of time, um, but I I
really should have prepped more.
I didn't prep as much, and thereason why is we also had an
opportunity on the very I thinkit was the first day they were
um doing speaker, helping uscreate speaker reels, so we had
a chance to just get on stagefor 90 seconds, say whatever we

(21:01):
want, just for to be able tohave a video.
And I practiced that.
And I got up there and I wasfelt terrible because I was
trying to remember everything Isaid.
So I was like Alright, I'm notpracticing, I've got this, you
know, I'm just gonna, I'm justgonna go up and just kind of
wing it.
But then I was trying toremember what I said in my six
minute video, so I was likejotting notes down at the last

(21:24):
minute.
I still actually haven'twatched it.
I can't bring myself to go backand watch it.
My husband said he watched itand he's like you looked so
confident the entire time untilyou stopped speaking.
And then he said the second youstopped talking, you literally
turned and ran off the stage.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
So I will be more prepared for this next one uh,
yeah, you've got a lot more time, um, so I'm trying to think I
would like to do speaking too.
I could easily talk for sixminutes.
I don't know if I could talkfor 45, though that's a long
time to talk it is.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
But well, first of all I could geek out talking
about like copywriting andmessaging strategy forever right
, like if somebody told you getup and talk about pulpp Fiction
for 45 minutes.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
I'm sure you could easily do that.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah, so I've really just been working through,
thinking about like what aresome anecdotes and vignettes and
things that I could tell that Icould pull together?
And I have been doing otherspeaking engagements.
This week I spoke to acommunity and they've all been
about 45 minutes hour sessionsand so, um, I feel like I have
enough, I know I have enough tobe able to really talk about and

(22:30):
fill that time.
It's just now weaving it intokind of this narrative,
narrative that, um, I couldeasily talk about on stage
without feeling like I have tomemorize something.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's kind of that mix, right,you kind of want the talking
points in your head but then youwant it to feel like very
natural.
You don't want it to feel superrehearsed and like memorized
and stuff.
When I was in the seventh gradeI'm sorry, ninth grade I ran
for class president as a jokeand I won, which is a really
long story and I won't tell it.
But I did not.
I would never have done this.

(23:00):
But I didn't learn this until amonth before.
But, as outgoing studentcouncil president, I had to give
a speech at awards night infront of like 200 people, of
parents and students.
They didn't, they.
There was literally a secretuntil 30 days before.
And then the teacher that ranit was like oh, like, make sure
you're working on your speech.
And I was like what are youtalking about?
And she was like oh well, I'mgoing to see you have to give

(23:20):
the speech.
I was like why didn't somebodytell me that back in August when
I did this as a joke, I wouldhave just scrapped it then like,
what are you?
How you're holding out on meanyway.
So, my friend, you got to writeme a speech.
I got to get me out of this.
So he did.
I had it on note cards.
I did not practice it.
I go out there.
I literally read the wholething in like 30 seconds.
I never looked up.
I looked down and I was like,but the thing, you're welcome to

(23:42):
work.
I was like the micro machineman, if you remember that, that
was the fastest thing you'veever seen and I bailed, it had
to.
But you know, these days, youknow there'd be like 57 million
recordings, but in whatever 1989, there were none.
So yeah, don't do that.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
OK, yeah, yeah, Noted , I joined this.
It's a mic drop.
I think it's called the MicDrop Club.
It's for women speakers and Iwas really.
Actually we had our firstmeeting yesterday, and so it's
over the course of a year.
There's these virtual meetingsand then there's in-person
meetings and there's a chapterin Raleigh where I am, and so
that's exactly what we were kindof talking about yesterday,

(24:20):
right, Is that delivery?
And we have a tendency.
You know you need to be up herewhen you're speaking because
you're going to naturally sortof tone it down.
Or for me, I talk really fast,and so how do you slow that down
to make sure that it's easy forpeople to understand and you
know engaging to listen to?

(24:42):
And so, yeah, that's what wewere talking about yesterday.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, no, that's awesome.
I've.
When I I did, I took aspeaker's bootcamp late last
year and so that was veryhelpful just in terms of like
tone and pausing andintentionality and inflection of
how you say certain things andthere's just a lot more to think
about.
But one of the things theytalked about was like really
studying stand like the goodstandup comics.
That standup comedians aremasters at a lot of the things

(25:08):
you need to be good at to be apublic speaker because they have
to allow jokes to breathe.
You have to read the audience.
They pause.
It feels like they're telling astory like the good ones are,
just like they're so good at it.
So she was like, if you're everlike stuck, are you looking for
inspiration?
She was like, just find acomedian you really like and
watch.
You know 20 or 30 minutes ofone of their presentations but
don't really like listen for thejokes, like in terms of the

(25:30):
humor, but like just watch, likehow they move, how they talk,
and so that's.
I've kind of always kept thatin mind.
So now when I I don't watch aton of standup, but when I do
I'm I'm a lot more like mindfulof, like they're pausing and
like how they're delivering andstuff, and uh, it's interesting
when you start paying attentionto those kinds of things, like
how important that is whenyou're speaking in public and

(25:50):
you're not just, you know,talking for 45 straight minutes
without a breath.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
Exactly, yeah, I had.
I got the same advice from aspeaking coach I worked with a
little bit the end of last yearand one of the things she
suggested was like go do improv.
And I was like that is nothappening.
But I she's like that's how youfigure out all of those little
pieces, how do you know when topause and when to shift and what
the body language should belike?

(26:14):
As I said, I did six minutes tostand up.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
I can Do you know when to pause and when to shift
and what the body languageshould be like.
You didn't have to.
I was going to say I did sixminutes of stand-up.
I can walk you through that.
That's no problem.
We can knock that out, yeaheasy I love it, perfect.
And it was six minutes.
And when I first signed up forit I thought six minutes was
going to be a lot.
And then it's not.
It's very short.
I had I had so much morematerial I had to.
I had a hard time likenarrowing it down to try to make

(26:37):
it, uh, make sense.
And then they were very strict,like do not go over, like the
red light's gonna flash.
You have 30 seconds.
Like do not abuse your time,like they were very rigid on on
the time.
But uh, yeah it was.
I mean it was nerve-wracking,but I'd been thinking about
doing it for a long time andagain it wasn't really like
jokes.
It was nerve-wracking, but I'dbeen thinking about doing it for
a long time and again it wasn'treally like jokes, it was just
stories and I just tell storiesanyway.

(26:58):
So really it was just likegetting up, I had a microphone
and I told stories in front ofstrangers and that was the only
difference.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
Are you going to do it again?

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, I'd 100% do it again.
In fact, as we were leaving,the main guy, the, the main mc,
was like, if this went well andyou liked it, be careful because
it's very addicting, like don't.
Like don't leave your familyand think you're just going to
start a career on the road andbecome like the next nate
bargazzi in, like you know, thenext six months.
It was like those guys havebeen doing it for like 20 years.

(27:27):
It takes a really long time, sodon't, don't quit your day job
that's funny yeah that was greatyeah that's great.
Yeah, I'm gonna make it.
I'm gonna be a nationalheadliner in vegas in like two
weeks.
Um, yeah, so no, it is.
I mean it is great experience.
I mean, if anyone out there islistening, who's ever thought
about doing um, well, it's notreally.
I mean, improv is different,where you're like trying to come

(27:49):
up with stuff off the top ofyour head.
I think that would be harderbecause the stand-up, I mean I
rehearsed, rehearsed it a ton,like I was saying it out loud
like a lot, so I was pretty wellprepared.
But I think improv would bemuch more challenging.
When you're like put on thespot, you have to think of like
something funny or somethingthat like makes sense or doesn't
, you know, depending on likethe skit.
So yeah, that would be like awhole nother level.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah, because her rationale right was you can
practice all you want, but whenyou're on stage and you're
giving a speech, if yourecognize something's not
hitting and you don't know howto pivot, yeah the whole thing
right goes to hell.
And so that's why that was thesort of the where the
recommendation came from isyou've got to be ready to think
on your feet because you mighthave the most perfect speech and

(28:32):
it lands every single timeuntil you're with this one
audience and it doesn't there?

Speaker 1 (28:37):
uh, that actually reminds me.
Do you like nate bargatze?
Have you ever watched any ofhis stuff?
I've some so he tells the story.
He got invited, uh, to do atalk, or it was like at a
conference, so it wasn't likehis normal, like routine.
But he was just going to talkfor like 10 or 15 minutes and so
he did and the crowd likenothing, like no response
whatsoever.
He was just going to talk forlike 10 or 15 minutes and so he
did and the crowd like nothing,like no response whatsoever.

(28:59):
He was like this is weird.
And so he went to like a coupleof like really like wheelhouse
stories, like kills, every timenothing.
And he, he was like I don't,like, I don't understand.
And so he eventually got offand then found the guy was like
what happened?
And the guy was like oh yeah, Iforgot to tell you.
They don't speak english, sothey had no idea what you're
saying.
So he was like I would havebeen good to know, like you

(29:20):
could have like told me thatyeah, so, um, yeah, so, yeah,
the audience, the audience doesmatter and sometimes, uh, it
just doesn't go that well.
Um, yeah, that's awesome.
I I'm still trying to plan myyear.
I'd love to get to donnie'sevent this year.
Is it in September again?

Speaker 2 (29:37):
It's in September.
Yeah, it's, the tickets arealready on sale.
You should absolutely do it.
It's, it was so worthwhile.
Um, yeah, so many thingshappened there that just changed
the trajectory of my business.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
Love it.
Yeah, I, I need to, uh, I needto look into that.
Um, I've never been to Dallasother than just I connected in
the airport many years ago, butI haven't spent any time in the
city, so I know several, I haveseveral connections down there,
and then I've met Donnie beforeand I'm familiar a little bit
with him and so, yeah, I need toput that, I need to look more

(30:11):
seriously and put that on theradar.
So, with the bootcamp and yourmessaging, do you find yourself,
when you look at websites now,just constantly critiquing them?

Speaker 2 (30:22):
Oh my gosh, it's the worst thing.
I'm like we're watching myhusband, my whole family, my
husband, my son they're obsessedwith hockey.
So we watch a lot of hockey inthe house and like every
commercial that comes on orevery slogan that's on, like the
boards, and I'm like commentingon it, my husband's like, oh my
God, turn it off.
I literally can't Everything Isee, and it's so hard because
you know, sometimes they'regreat.

(30:43):
And then sometimes I'm lookingat one, I'm like, oh, I could
help you so much, like I wishthere was a way I could just
tell you like, oh, you just didthis one tweak.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
This would be so much better.
That's hilarious.
I do the same thing withcontent.
Um, I I can't tell you thenumber of dms I want to send.
People would be like justplease, let me help you this,
just don't, don't put that outanymore.
This isn't, this is not helpingyou, please stop um.
So I took yeah, I totally getthat.
Uh, because you also do as partof your content.
You'll do like famous, like ads, or sometimes like somewhat
controversial ads, and like doyou like it, it and do you not?
So I like when you like kind ofhighlight and illustrate like

(31:19):
edgy content marketing, like howpeople use words, like there's,
there's a lot more to it, Ithink, than most of us who
aren't like in that businessrealize.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
It really is.
Those have become so much fun.
I think you know it started offwith.
I saw an ad that I was like, oh, this is fun, let me post it on
a Saturday, like Saturdayshenanigans on LinkedIn Did a
couple of those, and the reasonI keep doing it is the
conversations that happen in thecomments are so amazing, like
they're really insightful, andevery time I'll have somebody

(31:49):
that will challenge my thinkingin a way that I wasn't expecting
.
Like I'll post an ad that I'velooked at and I'm pretty sure
what I love or don't love aboutit, and then somebody will bring
in a perspective that I hadn'tconsidered and, um, that's been
the just the most fun part, soI've shifted it.
I used to always say, like, whatI loved about it, um, and then

(32:09):
would ask their opinions andmore recently I've just been
saying, like, here's the ad,here's what I think the
intention was behind the ad, theway that it was written, what
do you think?
Without putting my opinion,because I really want to hear,
like, what do other people haveto say?
And it's been really insightful.
But it's also helped me uncovera lot of things people don't
know that I didn't even know.

(32:31):
They didn't know, one of thebiggest things that has come up
repeatedly is just anunderstanding of not everything.
Not every piece of copy that'swritten, the point of it isn't
always conversion Right and soso many times people be like,
well, this wouldn't make me buyand I'm like that's not the
point of this ad.
So it's been really interestingand helpful helping me think
about content ideas too.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
No, that's really interesting.
Obviously, awareness is a bigkey, especially today with the
saturation of messaging, sothat's really important.
What do you think in terms of,like?
You mentioned the buyerpsychology earlier, and there's
obviously a ton of that inmarketing.
How do you go about learning it?
How do you help your clientslearn it?
If someone out there is tryingto learn more about their

(33:13):
marketing and whatever capacitythey would do it like, how do
you learn buyer psychology?

Speaker 2 (33:20):
So I've always been fascinated by psychology.
So I think it felt very naturalfor me to actually came into
copywriting pretty well versedin a lot of those types of
things, just because I like toread about it.
My actual first major incollege was criminology and
psychology, Because I'm justalways like I was the kid who
could.
I was up at night in middleschool because I was reading

(33:42):
books, like inside the criminalmind, Like why is she having
nightmares?
And I was reading all thesethings because I've always been
fascinated by how the mind works.
So for me, when I started makingthat shift from website
copywriting to incorporating themessaging strategy, I was like
we really have to figure outwhat makes people tick right,
what is helping them make thosebuying decisions.

(34:03):
So I read a lot around jobs tobe done theory, around buyer
psychology, around persuasionand around like what does it
look like to use that in anempathetic way, Not in a way,
you know, not sleazy?
So I'm just constantly reading,learning about all those types
of things and then I love toshare about that in my emails.

(34:26):
That's actually been shiftingthe content of my emails to be
more about like these areinsights about either these
copywriting or messagingtechniques, why they work, what
you need to consider about themand how to use them.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
That's awesome.
Have you read Cialdini'sInfluence?

Speaker 2 (34:42):
I have.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah, I tried.
That thing is thick and I thinkI got through like three
quarters of chapter one.
I was like I think I'm justgoing to GPT this and just be
like, give me the, give me thecliff notes.
I don't think I'm in for 700pages.
That's just a lot in there.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
It is a lot.
Did you read the chapter onsocial proof?

Speaker 1 (35:01):
No, unless that was chapter one.
Honestly, the only thing Iremember about it and I have
told this story before it is aninteresting one where the
jewelry store owner I think inHawaii had the turquoise jewelry
and told the employee to put it50% off and then she left and
then he did the opposite.
He doubled the price and thenit sold in like a day or two and
then she came back and was like, oh, I'm happy we marked that

(35:29):
down.
He was like, oh yeah, I doubledthe price and then the whole,
like they weren't buying itbecause they didn't equate.
They thought it was worth more.
And so they're like that'smostly.
That's mostly all I rememberfrom my brief time with that
book.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, no, there's a lot of interesting antidotes in
there.
So I always have mixed feelingsabout that, Because I think
some people have read it andused it for like, oh here's this
thing that works, and then theyuse it in a way that's not
necessarily.
That's manipulative, and so Ithink that's always a caution I
love there's a podcast calledduped and it's the dark side of

(36:02):
online marketing and they takethe consumer advocacy standpoint
, and that's actually where I'velearned a lot about how I want
to approach my copy is thinkingabout it from that lens of what
are the things I want to makesure I never do, you know, or
that I do in my copy because Iknow that it's going to resonate
in the right way and reallycreate trust and connection not,

(36:25):
you know, manipulate somebodyinto buying something they don't
need or want.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's a good point.
I haven't heard of that podcast.
I'll check it out.
But you mentioned your emaillist.
That's something I've just kindof started.
I didn't have never had onebefore.
I tried to write a newsletter.
When I got started, that was adisaster.
I didn't like doing it and Ithink I ended up with like 17
signups, which is probably morethan I even deserved.
It was not good, so I've kindof relaunched it as a video
newsletter which is still in itsinfancy stages.

(36:51):
That feels a little morealigned but obviously, as a
writer, that comes, I'm assuming, a little bit easier for you.
What have what's kind of beenyour experience in terms of,
like, building the email listand sending out regular emails,
in terms of, like, connections,relationships and your business?

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah, so I would say the first thing.
So I pivoted, like I said, andit's because it's not that I
have a problem writing thecontent, but I also had to think
about what quality do I want todeliver in a way that is not
going to take me four hours,like I was spending minimum four
hours on the emails that I waswriting initially because they
were so in-depth andcomprehensive and had all of

(37:29):
these examples and peopledefinitely found them valuable.
I was getting lots of replies,but I was like I'm not sure that
this is worth the trade-off ofwhat I'm getting, because I want
to make sure people, like Isaid, are getting insights.
My email list is aboutcommunity for me.
I love, I love when I get areply, I am really thinking
about who's reading my email andwhat kinds of things are they

(37:49):
curious about and do they wantto know?
Um, so you know, I wanted tomake sure that when I shifted I
was going to be able to keepdoing those things, and that's
where I really leaned into thisidea of, like, I love figuring
out why things work and how theywork.
I talk a lot about being valuesaligned.
That's really important to mein my business, and so how do I

(38:09):
bring that piece into everythingthat I'm doing?
You know I work with a lot ofdifferent service-based
businesses, but impact drivenbusinesses are my favorite to
work with and so I really wantto make sure that the things I'm
writing about speak to them.
And so so far you know Istarted it last May wasn't super
strategic in growing it untiljust this past January, like

(38:32):
I've been sending one out everyweek, um, so you know I've
gotten great engagement rates.
Um, my open rates are high.
My click through rates arepretty high.
I get lots of replies.
What I'm working on now ismaking sure, like, do I have a
relevant audience that not onlyas my content going to connect
with cause?

(38:52):
I have a lot of you know peers,but figuring out how do I turn
my email list into somethingthat's also going to connect
with Cause.
I have a lot of you know peers,but figuring out how do I turn
my email list into somethingthat's also going to help grow
my business right, where I caneventually sell some with my
email list and get you know thethings in the hands of people
who need and want them.
So yeah, so that's really mygoal now is what am I doing to
build my list and to collaboratewith other people to do that?

(39:16):
Does that answer your question?

Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, no, it's good, it's insightful, as a novice
myself, if you haven't writtenthis post, you probably have,
but if you haven't, you couldwrite it again.
But I would love to see abreakdown of what is a good open
rate, what is a click-throughrate?
What exactly does that mean?
And then also what's a good onerate like what exactly does
that mean?
And then also what's a good one?
Um, because I've, like I saidI'm just started to dabble, I'm

(39:37):
using mailer light and I look atmy dashboard and so I have I
have all these numbers and it'sall the, you know, open and
click and all the stuff, and I'mlike I don't know if these are.
I have no idea if there's anygood.
Is this good?
I have no idea, um.
So that would be if I'mstruggling with it.
There's at least one more outthere.
So if you want to write thatpost, I would encourage you.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
I did one a while ago on just looking at, like, my
subject lines and open rates.
And that was actually reallyinteresting just to go back
through the analytics and seesome of them, because really I
know open rates are becomingless relevant now just because
of, you know, bots clickingthrough, opening emails,

(40:14):
checking for spam filters, allof those things.
But relative to each other itstill makes sense to look at,
right.
So if one email has a 50% openrate and then the next one has a
30% or a 70%, that tells yousomething.
It was really interestinglooking at my open rates with my
subject lines.
So maybe I'll do something likethat again where I sort of look
at you know what gets theclicks and what gets people to

(40:37):
open.
And there were a couple ofsubject lines I thought were
really interesting that I hadpeople who signed up for my list
.
They didn't even open thewelcome email, they opened
nothing.
But there were two emails thatalmost everybody opened even
though they had openedabsolutely nothing else at all,
and I wish I remember exactlyoff the top of my head.

(40:58):
One of them was holy shit, thisstuff really works.
I had to see what it was, but itwas something similar.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
It's that, and like you won't open this email, I
guarantee it.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Don't do it open this email.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
I guarantee it it's.
Don't do it.
Uh, that's funny.
Um, yeah, no, I think that'sgood.
I, because you.
I mean you see a lot of itthere's.
There's tons, of tons of contenton linkedin about the value of
an email list and start an emaillist and the whole rented
versus owned land and all likeall of that, which I totally get
, but there isn't a lot of depthbeyond that.
It's just like start an emaillist, like what's's the harder
than that?
It doesn't.
You don't just like wave amagic wand and like you just

(41:38):
have like 5,000 people on yourlist, like you have to have
something to talk about, youhave to have a platform, you
have to get them to sign up,like it's.
And then what do you say afterthat?
Like you said, like you have awelcome sequence, but then what
are engage, there's much more toit.
So I don't think there's a lot,and maybe I'm just not seeing
it, but I don't think there's alot of in-depth content in terms
of how to actually do it,instead of just like, yep, start

(42:01):
an email list.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Do you follow Chanel Basilio?
Growth in Reverse.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
No, I don't I think you'd like her.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
She sends out an email every week where she
breaks down what she does isabsolutely amazing, like
in-depth breakdowns of howpeople have grown their email
lists, and she does so muchresearch and some of it is not
relevant to me, right, becauseshe's talking about people who
now have 30,000 subscribers, or100,000 subscribers, you know,
and so to me, a little bit of asmaller list is more relevant

(42:32):
right now.
But, like I said, that's been mygoal and ever since I said like
I need to be really strategicabout starting to grow my email
list and for me, everything inmy business has been about
relationships and collaborationso far, and so I'm like, well,
let me start trying that with myemail.
And since I've started doingthat, um, you know, it's just
been like four or five weeksI've doubled the number of

(42:53):
subscribers I've been gainingevery week.
Um, you know, by doing thingslike hey, we have similar
audiences.
Do you go on a?
Promote each other?
You know, just share a link tomy lead magnet, I'll share a
link to your lead magnet.
So doing things like that ordoing workshops, things like
that, have really helped too.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
Nice.
Speaking of collaboration, Iknow you worked recently with
Renee Lynn Froyo and I like hera lot.
She's been on my podcast twicebecause I screwed up the audio
the first time and I looked intogoing.
She's doing another retreat inMexico City in May and I looked
into doing that.
It's not going to end upworking out, but how did you two
get connected and how did youtwo collaborate?

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah.
So we just I can't evenremember we engaged with each
other on LinkedIn for a while.
Oh, I know what happened.
I did a post about hey, I'mgoing to do a workshop, because
people were coming to me sayingI don't know what to write about
on LinkedIn, you know.
And so I was like sure, I'll doa workshop.
So I did that.
But I put a poll out and I said,if I do a workshop about what

(43:54):
to write about on LinkedIn, likewhat are the things you would
hope to walk away with?
And one of the things thatpeople kept coming back up with
was a system.
Right, they wanted a way tokeep track and organize.
That is not my strong suit.
So I put a thing in thecomments like that's not my
strong suit.
And I think Renee saidsomething about like oh, I'd be
happy to share mine.
And so one of us messaged theother one.

(44:14):
I'm like I think I just saidlike hey, you want to do this
workshop with me, you can speakto that piece.
And so she did.
So we had that workshop.
That was great.
I'm actually excited.
We've got another one we'replanning for March and we just
started partnering on a projectthat we're working on with a
client together and I'm hopingI'm planning on trying to go to

(44:35):
her retreat.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
Oh, you're going to go, yeah, so that's awesome.
So one of the reasons that it'soff the radar is I'm the only
guy.
It's all women and I was likeYou're the guy.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
I off the radar is.
I'm the only guy like it's allwomen and I was like I talked to
her.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
I knew she was like yeah, there's one guy who talked
about going yeah, it's me sowhen, because I knew she did the
one in Costa Rica in November,and then like if I see a lot of
her stuff, and then she saidthey were gonna do it.
So I really pushed hard forDenver because she did the poll
right.
It was like New York, like theHamptons, I think, or nantucket,
denver and mexico.
I pushed hard for denver.
Mexico city won in a landslide,um, and so I was like all right

(45:11):
, fine, I've never been to, I'venever been to mexico, that's
fine.
Um, and then in january she waslike, okay, we've opened it up
and I think they had like 20 orso applications and I was like
any guys?
And she was like, yeah, one andhe's interested.
And I was like, all, all right.
So she, I didn't.
I didn't know who he was.
He was in Seattle.
She gave me his name.
I messaged him.
I was like, hey, I hear you'rethinking about going to Renee's
retreat.

(45:32):
Literally in 12 hours that Isent that message, two hours
later he messaged me back andwas like yep, my schedule's
already changed, not going, goodluck, let me know how it is.
So I went back there and I waslike you need more men in your
circle, like what it's all womenlike what, you need more guys.
And she was like well, don'tyou have any friends?
Like can't you can?
What about you?
You should have like maleconnections, bring somebody.
I was like I I don't know.

(45:53):
She's like, well, then we both,we both have a guy problem.
And so I was like all right.
I was like I can't go to, Ican't go to retreat with like 11
women that doesn't make senseso, um.
So then after then I checked inwith her not too long ago and
she was like, yeah, it's fillingup and it's going to be all
women.
So I was like, alright maybenext time.
But yeah, I mean it soundsamazing.
I mean I knew a little bitabout it, but when I read the

(46:15):
copy on the page they did for it, I just thought it was really
well organized and I think itwould be very valuable and
beneficial to anybody that wouldgo.
I thought it would be good forme, kind of where I am in my
business.
But yeah, clearly I just needmore.
I need more male connections todrag along.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
And you need to start a guy's retreat.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
I've had people tell me that I was like I don't, I
don't see retreat host in myfuture.
That just doesn't.
That doesn't seem.
This doesn't seem likesomething I'm going to.
I'm going to tackle, I'm gonnatackle, uh, but what's
interesting about so and I knowthis from having her on my show
so renee is great at I'm notsurprised at all that when you
put like you wanted some kind ofhelp or it's something you
weren't good at, she is terrificat like seeing stuff like that

(46:56):
and like putting herself outthere and be like I can help you
, like I am good at this.
I think that's how she gotstarted with.
I don't know the other woman'sname that she's doing the
retreats with, but I thinkthat's how the retreats get
started, cause that woman waslooking for some kind of help
and Renee was just like oh yeah,like I'll help you, I'll do it.
So she's it's a great lessonfor people out there Like if you
see something and you'reinterested and you feel like
it's an area that you cancontribute, like don't hesitate,

(47:17):
like reach out to them.
You know, worst case, they sayno and then sometimes you start
new businesses.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
I need to be better about that, because I'm great
about finding people who I knowcan fill gaps for me right, or
somebody who brings a strengththat I don't have to the table,
but I'm not always so greatabout saying like, hey, I could
help with that and put harderupon it.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Yeah, no, it is.
It's a great lesson and,honestly, it's a power of
LinkedIn, right, like she's inCalifornia, you're in North
Carolina, correct?

Speaker 2 (47:43):
Right.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, Carolina, correct, Right, yeah, so you
know, and I'm in the Midwest, so, like you know, spread out kind
of throughout the country, andthen you know the power of the
platform.
Um, we almost all ended up inMexico city together.
So, like it's just, LinkedIn isis a.
It's a weird and magical place.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
It really is.
It's so amazing to me howpeople like we're so spread out
and how the world is still sosmall, how I'll run into someone
like there's a woman I'm in amastermind with right now who
lives in South Carolina, whomight be attending an event in
North Carolina like I just mether, but she's connected with
someone else I'm alreadyconnected with, and not that you

(48:17):
know the Carolinas are too farapart from each other, but
that's happened on more than oneoccasion where I talked with
someone and they're like, ohyeah, I've been working with
this person or that's my client,and it's really cool.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
No, it really is.
It's been.
That's been by far the bestpart of this whole journey.
I've been on these last 19 or20 months and I've just met so
many amazing people from allover the world and just been
very energizing and you know,everybody's smart and creative
and all kind of doing their ownthing.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
It's a lot of people supporting each other and
rooting for each other and it'sjust a nice I don't know it's a
nice place to be.
It feels just, feels good, itdoes.
Yeah, I'm so.
I mean I love how many peopleI've met and connected with on
LinkedIn and they all get achance to meet them in person
and it is just like connectingwith a friend.
You know you build.
You can build really genuineand real connections here.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
Yeah, no, I totally agree.
I think part of it is thecontent, cause if you read, if
you, if you read somebody'scontent pretty consistently, I
feel like, again, if they'resharing even a little bit about
themselves, right, you feel likeyou start to know them.
And then if you have zoom calls, that's a different level and
then, yeah, you meet them inperson and so it does feel, yeah
, like they're, even though theyare a stranger in person.
They're not a stranger becauseyou've commented, you've engaged

(49:29):
, you've talked and it's a, it'sa really unique, uh, it's a
really unique setup.
But, yeah, the people, somepeople I've met in person, it
feels like I've known them forlike most of my adult life.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
Exactly Yep.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
So yeah, it's really cool.
Um, do you, how intentional areyou?
Do you, how intentional are you?
Do you, do you do?

Speaker 2 (49:52):
like a set number of zoom calls.
You just kind of have themhappen organically.
Um, like, how do you approachthe whole kind of relationship
building part?
Um, I have actually am beingmore intentional now, cause I
was doing so many at one pointthat it got a little bit
overwhelming.
Um, I don't necessarily havelike a I'm going to try and hit
this number every single week,but what I've been trying to do
is make sure that I'm connectingwith people who, um who I know
that we can provide value andsupport to each other.

(50:14):
You know, I'm not always I'mnot getting on a call
necessarily like thinking, oh,can I pitch you to be my client?
That's never the goal with thosecalls.
So no, I mean, I thinksometimes it just feels like a
natural extension of this is thenext step.
Hey, we've been engaging witheach other's content forever.
And then sometimes it'sintentional with networking,
where I'll talk with someone andsay, hey, I'm really looking to

(50:39):
collaborate with more peoplewho have a similar target
audience.
Do you know anybody else whoworks with impact driven B2B
businesses?
So you know, it just depends.
But I am more purposeful nowbecause I was just doing so many
.
So now I limit myself to doingfour a week, because I was doing
well over that before and whatI found is I couldn't
intentionally follow up withpeople, I couldn't keep those
relationships going.

(51:00):
So I'm really trying to makesure that I'm only connecting
with people that I know thatit's a relationship that I can
continue to grow and build ifit's going to be, you know,
beneficial to both of us to dothat.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
You mentioned your love ofreading.
Do you read?
Is a fiction, nonfiction, mixof both?
How do you, how do you decidethere?

Speaker 2 (51:21):
Yeah, mix of both, I love.
I've been reading a lot ofparenting books lately.
I've got a 16 year old.
Most recent one was I listenedto my parents?
Was I would listen to myparents if they would just shut
up?
Um, that's when I just finished.
Um, no, I read a little bit ofeverything.
I go through phases wheresometimes I'll read a whole
bunch of business stuff.

(51:41):
Um, I've sort of eased off ofthat some because I you know
that separation between workwhen you own your business,
especially when you work fromhome, right, you have to learn
how to turn it off.
So I love a variety of things.
I love historical fictionmemoirs.
I really enjoy reading thosepretty much, unless it's sci-fi
or romance.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
I'm into it.
Do you watch a lot of like CSIand NCIS and Criminal Minds and
all that, since you loved allthat as a kid.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
I used to.
I used to and then I don't knowif it was like becoming a mom
or what it was.
But I don't enjoy that as muchanymore.
I still love figuring out whatmakes people tick, but the
violence piece of it I'm not asexcited about anymore.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Got it, okay yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Not that I'm excited about violence, but well, when
you're younger it's morefascinating.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
When you get older, you're like that could happen to
me right yeah, I, I used tolisten to a lot of crime like
true crime podcasts when I wasstuck in the cubicle that was.
I went on a big kick, uh, withthat.
I don't do that much anymoreand I think part of it is like
getting older and my kids are alittle bit older.
My oldest is 15 and a half.
He'll be 16 this summer.
Um, so yeah, I think that does.
I think that does change, likeyour outlook, a little bit.

(52:52):
Um, I'll have to look for thatbook, but he that now does, your
is, is it just son?
Your son is 16 yeah, is he?
does he play a lot of videogames.
He has earbuds in all the timeis he on his phone all the time
does he watch youtube shorts?

Speaker 2 (53:05):
yes, yes, the time.
Does he watch YouTube shorts?
Yes, yes, yes, so the?

Speaker 1 (53:07):
eyes fall out.
Okay yeah, we're on the samepage.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, I mean he's pretty good about.
I will say, like one thing Ilove is, whenever I go to pick
him up from school, like thefirst thing he does is take his
earbuds out.
He does parkour, and every timeI'm always so like we get in
the doesn't want to talk thewhole time.
I'm like his earbuds aren't in,so I know he's ready for a

(53:31):
conversation potentially.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
It's really interesting.
So I just recently, in the lastcouple of weeks, we got invited
to play it's pickup basketballon Sunday mornings.
So it's 630 in the morning.
It's a bunch of dads and thenlike a bunch of freshmen in high
school.
And just to let me talk aboutjust generationally right, there
were two kids this last weekthat played the games with at
least one earbud in, like theywere listening to music while

(53:56):
playing a full court basketballgame and I was like this is not
going to be a long game.
You can't take what you can'ttake a break.
Do you need that music?

Speaker 2 (54:06):
while you're running, like what is happening?
It's incredible.
Do you need that music?
While you're running, like whatis happening?
It's incredible, yeah.
So my son also plays hockey andmy husband coaches and last
season he didn't lay down rulesin the locker room about phones
initially.
And we were playing the gameand I look over and they're on
the bench and all the kids arelike this.
I'm like dude, you're on theshift, like you're on the ice

(54:27):
for a minute, you get off for aminute and then you go back on.
And he was like, yeah, I nippedthat in the bud as soon as we
got back into the locker room,but he was like it wasn't a
conversation I thought I wasgonna have to have when you're
playing hockey, but sure enough,that game.
Like nobody paid attention toanything, it was really.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
It was wild paid attention to anything.
It was really.
It was wild.
Well, it's just, you know, Imean social media.
They've done a great job.
It's addicting, right.
They just the the moving imagesand all the different stuff and
he, we, he doesn't have likesnapchat or instagram, like we
haven't let him create likeaccounts, but I think, honestly,
just youtube and just like thenonsensical shorts that he
watches, just for like hours onend, it's like don't you just

(55:06):
get tired of that?
Like you don't want to theydon't.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
They don't.
No, they don't mind us too.
Like he doesn't have socialmedia mostly by choice we are
would not be fans of it either,but like he, he has no desire.
But yeah, he watches thedumbest youtube clips and yes, I
don't know yeah, and then heused to play a lot of fortnite.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
And then now my youngest is kind of the
Fortniter and he if he playsvideo games now it's like NBA 2K
or Madden or like NCAA footballwith his neighborhood kids.
But but Fortnite is big with my11 year old.
He's a.
He's a future YouTube gamer,streamer, twitch account,
wannabe influencer.
That's his career, life goal.

(55:47):
Gotta have goals exactly, um, so, yeah, this has been great.
We're almost an hour.
I really appreciate coming on.
Uh, we'll finish.
Since we start with pulpfiction, we'll finish it up
because, again, I could talkabout it all day.
What, like, what is your likewhen you, when you think about
it?
Like, what do you, what do youlove about it?
How many times you think you'veseen it?
Um, like, what's your favoritescene?
That kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
Like I said, it's been a long time since I've
watched it in entirety, but Iwould say I mean I know I've for
sure at least seen it.
A gross underestimate would be20 times like all the way
through.
I love the soundtrack yeah thesoundtrack is amazing, like one
of the scenes I always love iswhen, um, they're in the diner

(56:28):
and it's time for the dancecompetition and Mito Wallace
looks at him and is like we'regoing to dance.
And the expression on JohnTravolta's face is priceless,
like I always love that scene.
And then who doesn't love theRoyale with cheese conversation?

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Absolutely what I love about the diner.
I actually I do quote this onea lot because he she orders the
five dollar shake and he's likethat's a five dollar shake, just
milk and ice cream, no bourbonor nothing, and the you know the
waiter's like whatever, andthen when he gets it he's like.
He's like I gotta know what afive dollar shake tastes like.
Like I love that whole back andforth yes, yeah, that whole

(57:03):
scene was great yeah, and they Imean it gave Travolta a chance
to dance, which was like histhing, like anyway, so that was
brilliant.
There's a flaw?
So when they leave and they goto Eric Stoltz's house after she
ODs, next time you watch it.
So that whole scene also is oneof my favorites, when they're
trying to figure out how they'regoing to give her the shot and

(57:24):
he's yelling at Eric Stoltz,who's yelling at his wife, and
then they're like well, I don'tknow, We've never really done
this, and it's just like sochaotic.
Meanwhile she's like dying onthe floor.
But when he and he's like so, Istab her three times Like no,
no, no, like just once, anyway.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
So notice next time I'll have to keep it.
I feel like I've heard thatbefore, I think, and I yeah,
I'll have to look for that nexttime.
I really want to watch it againnow that we were talking about
it tonight.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
You're like we're watching fall fiction.
I've talked about the wholemovie.
We need to see all these, allthese scenes.
Um, yeah, one of my otherfavorite lines is when, because
after they go to, uh,tarantino's house and harvey
kaitel comes and helps them outof the whole situation, and then
they're like Keitel's hosingthem off and it's cold and they
put those clothes on and thenthey're like making fun of them
for the clothes.

(58:11):
And then I think SamuelJackson's like well, the your
clothes, motherfucker.
To Tarantino I think that's oneof the most underrated lines
like in the movie, like makingfun of them or like, well, we're
wearing your shit Because ofyou.
Yeah, no, I was surprised.
I forgot that it was 30 yearsold and it was October of 94.
I remember last year I don'tknow what the exact date was and

(58:31):
then they were like you know,it's 30 this year and I was like
, oh my God, I cannot believethat it's been 30 years.
But that's one of the fewmovies I've seen.
I saw it in a theater twicewithin like five't even know if
that was good.
I don't even actually know whatI watched.
Then you watch it the secondtime and then, honestly, the

(58:52):
second time it was kind of thesame thing.
You're like I still don'treally know what has happened,
what's the plot, I don't know.
And then obviously over time itall comes together.
But I don't think I've seen toomany movies like theater within
like like four or five days.
Um, because it was just.
It was like nothing you'd everlike, nothing like that had ever
been done, like if the wholenon-linear and then just the mix

(59:14):
and match in and out and thedifferent like segments of
scenes that were pretty longscenes, and then something else
would just completely like justshift, and you'd be like what,
what does that have to do withthis?
And then eventually it all kindof comes together like like I
don't know how he came up withit, but it's, it's just true,
true genius yeah, yeah, for sure.
That's just gonna say it'spretty genius yeah, there's a

(59:35):
thing do you know who billyoppenheimer is?
Do you see any of his stuff onlinkedin?
Yeah, um, he wrote.
He's wrote a couple abouttarantino, but one of them that
was really fascinating is thathe has like and I've read this
in books but like he haddesignated time built into his
schedule, I think he just likewent to his pool and like, just
like laid in the pool and justlike let like, just let

(59:56):
everything like relax, like hisbrain just kind of relax, and
that's where he got like a lotof like creative ideas.
Um, he wasn't plugged in, hewasn't trying to write, he
wasn't like trying to force it,but it was like and he kind of
trained his brain, like hisbrain became adjusted to that
around that time it kind of knewthat it was going to be time to
just like chill, and then hecredited that with a lot of like

(01:00:17):
things he came up with and, um,I think all of us could benefit
from like more breaks, likethroughout the day yeah, that's
interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
I mean, that's always right.
Whenever I'm stuck and I'mwriting and I can't think, I'm
like let me go take a walk, oror whatever the case.
And you know, of course thebest idea is always come in the
shower um, always.
But yeah, like my family'sgotten used to that, my husband
used to like run up the stairsand check because I'd be in the
shower and I'd be like, hey,siri, and I'd be like writing a
note to myself.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
They're like, oh, she just got a linkedin post idea
now 100, 100, shower, walking,the dog running, um, driving
without like anything on.
I think those are probably thefour, and they're almost all.
The common denominator is youknow, no device because I don't
take my phone on dog walks or Idon't run with my phones.
Yeah, it's amazing what happensonce you just stop being

(01:01:07):
stimulated and allow everythingto kind of settle and then, all
of a sudden, you start to beable to generate ideas.
Well, this is great.
I really appreciate your time.
Thanks for coming on andsharing your background, your
insight, very, very insightfulin terms of the copywriting
world and marketing and like howit's all you know tied together
, which, again, I don't think alot of people think of.
Uh, any final thoughts, any anyuh thing you want to leave the

(01:01:29):
audience with.
And then how can they find you?
A LinkedIn website or any anyplace else?

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
Yeah, Um final thoughts.
I don't mean go watch PulpFiction if you haven't seen it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Um, we've given the whole movie away, but yes, yeah,
it's still worth the watch.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Um, I mean, I just think the biggest thing is you
know, whenever you are thinkingabout your marketing or your
copywriting, like just it'sreally about knowing and
understanding your audience andbeing sure that you're being
intentional with how you'retalking.
And then you know, don't followfor any of the BS, gimmicky,
garbage.
That would be my biggestmessage.
But other than that, you knowwhere people can find me is

(01:02:08):
LinkedIn.
I'm there mostly every day.
Love to connect and engage withpeople on LinkedIn and also my
email list.
Since I'm working on growingthat bigger, we should do a
little plug here.
Every week I send out insightsand I love feedback on that.
So those would be two greatplaces I'd love to connect with
people.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
Awesome.
Well, again, thanks for comingon.
Really appreciate it.
Stacey, Take care.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Thanks for having me.