May 27, 2025 • 52 mins
Angie Callen went from civil engineer to coach for high-performing leaders—and she didn’t take the straight path to get there. In this episode, she shares how art galleries, nonprofits, and burnout led her to a thriving coaching business.
We talk LinkedIn strategy that actually works, the mindset traps most coaches fall into, and why storytelling beats step-by-step tips every time.
Highlights:
- Why most coaches want to coach—but forget they’re running a business
- The LinkedIn content shift that builds trust instead of just teaching
- Mindset, sales, and niche evolution (and why failure is content gold)
- What’s killing earning potential for talented coaches
- Why being a great listener beats being a great closer
If you're a coach or creative pro trying to grow a business without burning out, this one's for you.
➝ Connect with Angie: https://careerbenders.com/ or https://www.linkedin.com/in/angiecallen/
David's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-young-mba-indy/
David's Website: https://davidjyoung.me/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Real you Podcast.
This is episode 42.
I'm David Young, your host.
I'm a LinkedIn content andbusiness coach.
I launched this podcast inMarch of 2024.
I find interesting people doingamazing things.
Today, I'm joined by AngieCowan, an executive and business
coach for high-performingleaders and coaches.
We will discuss her journey,how she uses LinkedIn, the joys
and frustrations of trying tofind your path as a solopreneur.
(00:21):
Now she supports other foundersand business owners.
She's based in Denver, Colorado, is a fellow classic rock band
and this week I learned she'salso a fan of the movie Office
Space.
I mean, who isn't, but whoisn't Right?
We will talk about that, andmore so after a whole bunch of
technical glitches and delays.
Thanks for finally being here.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
We are committed to bringing you this conversation
everyone, and you should be gladfor it.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
We started on Riverside, we went to Zoom, we
left Zoom and went to StreamYardand we are back on Zoom for the
first time ever in my 40 plusepisodes.
So who knows what you're goingto get out of this, but we are
giving it a very, very hardcollege try this, but we are
(01:09):
giving it a very, very hardcollege try and uh, apparently I
am a an interesting persondoing inspiring things.
So thanks, that's cool.
Yeah, absolutely.
Uh, you're in the mountains, umyou're.
You're a big hiker, you likemusic and office space like we
have so much to cover we havelots to talk about you had the
pink colloid shirt on.
You're doing a little househouse project recently yep,
exactly, I uh.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I stole that sweatshirt from my husband, who
has no reason owning it becausehe does not know classic rock
very well and he would bemortified if I told you that on
a program where other people areactually listening, um, and
it's my diy sweatshirt.
It is special when you, uh,when you see if you ever get a
program where other people areactually listening and it's my
DIY sweatshirt.
It is special when you see Ifyou ever get a Zoom with me
wearing the Pink Floydsweatshirt.
You've moved into a differentcategory of my connections.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I will add that to the mental notes.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Put that on your bingo card, David.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I'm not a huge Pink Floyd fan, but I do like classic
rock in general.
Same, but yeah, I can.
Well, it's interesting nowbecause classic rock is now like
all of the 90s.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
It is not.
It is not.
I was listening to an oldiestation one day and Pearl Jam
came on and I think I had aheart attack in the driver's
seat and I was.
I was like, no, no, no, no.
Classic rock was made in the60s and 70s period.
It is not in reference to howlong ago it was from today.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
This is true, but Pearl Jam has been around for 35
years, so they're movingbackwards.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yet I haven't aged a day.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Eddie has.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Oh, good old Eddie.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, he looks a lot like.
My wife saw a picture of himrecently.
She goes he looks like my aunt,like one of my old aunts.
What is he doing?
Like I'm not sure, I don't know.
I don't know what look he'sgoing for, but it's not a great
idea.
And then I saw pictures of, Iguess, richie Sambora's coming
back to Bon Jovi or they'retrying to get back together or
something.
I'm not sure.
(03:08):
Anyway, I saw a picture of BonJovi and him and they both
looked.
They did not look good Eitherone of them.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So I don't know what these rock guys are doing later
in life.
But it's I don't recommend it.
It probably involves too manydrugs in early life and a whole
lot of plastic surgery recently.
That just isn't working outinto a very good cocktail.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, that's a good point, Because the yeah, the
Sambora one, that definitelylooked like you had some work
done.
There was a lot of smooth, alot of smooth and stretched skin
in that picture.
But yeah, anyway, I mean it's arough life when you do that or
when you're on the road all thetime and you know your hours are
off and, like you said, likethe alcohol and drugs and
(03:48):
traveling, it's like, yeah, butother than Keith Richards and
Mick Jagger, it doesn't wearoverly well.
And even then, but they're likein their 80s.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, that's very true when you think about it.
I find it interesting, speakingof the 90s, that the 90s are
like a thing again.
So I have nieces that are intheir early 20s and they will
show up wearing like Nickelbackand Matchbox 20s T-shirts and
I'm like what's going on here?
Is it just a thing that we tendto like the music that's like
20 years older, Basically themusic our parents listened to at
(04:22):
the formative years, yearsolder, Basically the music our
parents listened to at theformative years?
I don't know, there's got to besome sort of data point around
that, but I still find itslightly disturbing.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
I find it slightly disturbing that anybody would
wear a Nickelback shirt Betterthan the wallflowers.
Yeah, maybe I didn't think aboutthat.
I have a buddy.
He's a teacher.
He teaches eighth grade mathand I don't know if he still
does this, but for a while he'sbeen doing it for a long time.
Kids would come into the classand they'd be wearing, you know,
(04:53):
guns N' Roses.
They'd have some type of rockT-shirt on.
He would say, like you have tobe able to name five songs, you
can never wear that shirt again.
Like don't walk in here withthis.
Like famous popular band andyou don't know anything about
them.
So like dip it.
And they'd be like wait what?
He'd like five songs, and youknow they're.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Like yeah, I don't know.
I highly respect that.
Yeah, I'm also side note, notas big of a Pink Floyd fan as
you'd think for having myfavorite sweatshirt with their
logo.
I fall more into the LedZeppelin heavy guitar riff type
of stuff more so than the jambandy land.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, same Pink Floyd's too slow.
My wife's a big.
She's a big jam bander so sheloves the dead and fish.
Spent enough time with her andI've listened to enough of it
that I can do some of it.
Um, but I grow tired prettyquickly.
I always joke like this isgonna be a long song.
Um, you know, you go to a, yougo to a fish concert.
(05:54):
You're like eight, so three anda half hours long.
Um, yeah, I like and you don'treally know where any one song
ends and the next one beginsyeah the same yeah, I honestly I
like the heavier, like I likesabbath and van halen, zeppelin,
for sure, the who, um, yeah, Ilike the real, like guitar
driven yep, like the heavyguitar and rock.
(06:14):
That's why I like pearl jam somuch, because I just thought the
guitar work was always, wasalways so good, um, although I
will say I think their mostrecent probably five or six
albums have gotten a little bitaway from it.
So I'm like a first five PearlJam.
I think those are really quitegood and then after Yield I go
pretty.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, og Pearl Jam.
My ultimate favorite, which Iguess is it's not so much black,
it's not so much classic rockinspired by classic rock, fringe
era.
The black crows are my favoriteyeah, I like the black crows.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Um remedy might be my favorite song of theirs um
robinson's are interesting,they're.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
They're interesting guys, interesting relationship
yeah, finally, after like 30years of making music and
they're in their 60s, theyfigured out how to actually get
along.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, yeah, anyway, I can talk.
I mean, I can talk, I can doall I can start a podcast on
music.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Do we now have a podcast randomly?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
talking about music, because I'm in.
Yeah, we can just do.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
As long as it is nothing past about the year 2008
, because then I'm useless.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, yeah, you've got.
You got me by like eight years.
So there's a show.
Have you ever seen the showbeats of them with jamie pops.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You know what that show is no, but I need to watch
it yeah, so it's a.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
It's like a modern name, that tune kind of.
So it's.
The idea is that the app,shazam, can name any song in
like five seconds and the end ofthe show is you try to.
You have to name songs thatquickly, but before that it's a
competition, so there's threeteams of two and then there's
like categories and whatnot.
Anyway, you, they playsomething, and then you get four
(07:59):
options and it's whoever canname it the fastest.
Well, I can name, and it'swhoever can name it the fastest
Well, I can name.
If I so, if I know the song,almost any rock, modern rock,
classic rock, alternative, somerap, some like disco, like I can
name it like almost instantly,like I can hear just the
faintest note and I can tell youwhat it is, and I can probably
(08:20):
tell you the song title too.
If I don't know it, then it'snot there.
But, I'm only good up until likethe late nineties, maybe like
99, 2000.
And then I'm out.
So like I need, like my wife,or like my oldest son is almost
16, because they have listened,they've kept.
I stopped listening to likeradio music because it's because
rock went away, right, itbecame pop and all synthesized
(08:42):
and like Justin Bieber and youknow Katy Perry and all that
stuff, and I just don't have anyuse for it.
So when those, so when thoseare the categories, I'm
completely useless.
But they're great, yeah, soit's right, so they're.
So I looked into it.
They've done like seven seasons.
I don't know when the last onewas out.
So I looked into it becausewe're getting way off topic here
.
People are tuning in like whatis, what is We've?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
never even gotten on topic so far.
So y'all are just tuning intoepisode one of a totally new
podcast.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Where's the business and entrepreneurial LinkedIn
talk?
Like what am I listening to?
I mean, you know, we startedwith Ted Glitches.
We just we're going to go heavymusic Anyway.
So there have been a couple oftimes when someone could not
name literally like sweet home,alabama, I mean the most, and
that's just one example.
But like songs that justliterally anyone would know.
(09:30):
You didn't have to know music,like oh yeah, I know that song,
piano man, stuff like that.
So I was like how are thesepeople on the show?
It didn't make any sense.
So I looked into getting on theshow.
Now my oldest son is not oldenough because I think you have
to be 21, maybe 18, and what Irealized in the process is that
they don't actually bring peopleon that know music.
That actually has nothing to dowith it, it's all performative.
(09:50):
So it's like will you dance?
Like with Jamie Foxx, like willyou be goofy?
Will you like triple high five,double triple high five, the
people to your left or right ifthey get one right, and that's
like what the show is.
So I was like oh, left or right.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
If they get one right and that's like what the show
is, so I'll think, oh, so it'snot really about like performing
game show contestant notcorrect.
Are you good at pub trivia,which is my jam, as long as
we've got the sub 25 year oldringer?
Speaker 1 (10:18):
right, right.
So then I was like, oh well,I'm never gonna get off because
I don't care about any of that.
I could name all those songs inabout half a second.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So yeah, you're not.
You're exactly the opposite,because you are not interesting,
right?
You're not even any showmanship.
Boom, I got it.
Boom, I got it.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, they're like oh , this guy is too good.
He's not going to dance but heknows all the song Anyway.
So yeah, there's, if you, I'msure it's streaming.
It's a, it's a Fox show like onnormal, so wherever you stream
Fox stuff, but yeah, it'sinteresting.
His daughter's like the DJ.
Dave Fox is good.
I mean he's an entertainer anddoes impressions and he sings
(10:55):
and dances so he's like theperfect host.
But yeah, it's good,interesting show.
And I remember watching Namethat Tune, like as a kid I
watched a lot of game showsgrowing up.
I'm 49.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
And I remember yeah because that's all there was.
There's all there was to watch.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Tic-Tac-Toe and Do-Good-Wild and Bob Barker
obviously practiced Right, butthey were the name that tune At
the whole, like I can name thattune in.
Like you know one note as a kidit didn't do much for me
because there songs they weregoing like you up and stuff and
I have no idea, um, so they didlike a modern version of that.
That would be cool, I'd be allright with that that would be
(11:28):
fun.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Motown, motown's the other thing I'm a ringer for,
because my mom loved thetemptations and the supremes.
Um, so what else should we talkabout on this now?
Speaker 1 (11:38):
music podcast well, we can talk about the Ghetto
Boys song in Office Space Die,motherfucker, die, because
that's that you did.
You did the meme this weekwhere the mirror Michael and
Peter take the fax machine tothe field and they destroy it
with the baseball bat.
It's one of the great scenes.
(11:59):
I don't know if that's the nameof the song.
I know it's Ghetto Boys and Iknow that's the.
That's what they play the alltime that they're.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
They're hitting it and you can just hear you can
just hear it in the in thebackground and I can't remember
where in it's around.
Maybe it's leading up to thatscene, but peter's driving
around the car and damn, itfeels good to be gangsters on.
So I always connect to the twoand ever since I but this was
just the other day everybody outthere who's this is fresh in
our minds.
We're in, you're just in, onegiant inside joke apparently
(12:27):
that david and I are now bestfriends after one podcast on
mine and this conversation andoffice space mean we're best
friends and you're all in ourinside joke.
But I posted that picture andfor some reason you, you, he
posted the damn motherfucker dieand then for some reason, all I
could think about all day wasdamn, it feels good, feels good
to be a gangster.
That movie is just so clever,so good.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Back to Ghetto Boys 2 , apparently Mike.
What's the guy I draw a blankon his last name, the Meebus and
Butthead guy, mike Judge.
Mike Judge, who wrote that, wasapparently a big Ghetto Boys
fan in the mid-90s.
But yeah, that's when Peter, Idon't know exactly sequence, I
haven't seen it in a while.
Yeah, that's when he's on hislike totally off the deep end.
Everybody thinks he's crazy.
And then, yeah, they'relistening to that.
(13:08):
That's when he goes.
I think that's when he takesthe uh, the drill and undoes the
door, because the door alwaysshocks him and so he takes it,
he sticks the lock off and thenhe's like cutting up the fish
and he goes and meets with thebobs.
And yeah, the whole, themeetings with the body, the
meeting with the bobs isprobably my favorite, that's
probably my favorite scene,that's just the whole.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Like that whole sequence is so great what I love
about the movie office space ishow pop culturey it became,
even for people who've neverworked in an office and don't
have the context oh for sure,because I didn't work in an
office, for my first jobs werein sales.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I spent seven or eight years in sales.
So I had a territory I was justdriving around and it was 2008.
I graduated from college in 98.
And yeah, it was almost 10years before I went into an
office.
But yeah, it was still funny,like just because.
And then, once I startedworking in an office, I was like
(14:02):
, oh, this is perfect.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Whereas so that movie came out in 99.
I graduated from.
I was in college to be anengineer, graduated in 03.
And I'm not even joking walkedinto a cubicle farm with gray
cubicles that look just likeoffice space in an engineering
office when half the peopleyou're working with are Miltons,
and I was like, oh wow, it'sactually true.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
So what is it that you actually do here?
Well, I take the paper, take it.
You don't actually deal withthe customer.
Well, like I'm a people person,I have people, you know, yep
there you go.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I'm a people person, I have people.
Yep, there you go.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Corporate accounts fail.
That's a moment.
Why do you ever think aboutgoing by, mike?
Why should I change my name?
He's the one who sucks.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
I just want to know where your TPS report is.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Did you not get the memo?
Yeah, I got it.
I got it.
We'll get you another.
We'll get you another.
I got it, I got it.
We'll get you another.
We'll get you another.
I got it.
I got it right here.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I think it would be really funny.
I mean, since they're remakingeverything from our generation
to appeal to the children thatour generation has had, I think
it would be really interestingto see Office Space in 2025.
Right With, like, the digitalversion of Office Space.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Like, oh, did you get my email?
Yeah, you know it's funny.
So when I was so, I started atCubicle in 08 and did that for
about 10 years, and then remotework and I came in, but at my
darkest.
So I had about four years14-ish to through 17, where I
was just in really ill-fittingroles and in the office, in the
(15:48):
cubicle, but just like I hated Ireally hated life and my
existence was horrific.
Um, and so I passed the time.
I would listen to podcasts andread books, but I would take
notes.
I had this like notebook, liketwo things one, the stand-up
comedy material for all thestupid shit that it said, like
the catchphrases and just like,how often do you say hi to
(16:10):
somebody?
Like if you see them sameperson, like twice a day, do I
say hi the second time?
Like I think I should get apass, like I don't think I'd say
hi again, but I'll see him athird time.
Like do I just give by with noacknowledgement?
Like I just didn't know, Anyway, so the second part was I had
this idea for what you're kindof.
What you're talking about is Iwanted to write, even though I'm
(16:30):
not a writer, like a, a muchmore like significantly more
swearing, like significantlymore depressing of just what
it's really like, Like itliterally just can take your
(16:51):
soul.
Uh, if you spend too much timethere, um, like I would go.
There were some days where Iwould just go sit in my car for
like an hour.
I would just stare at thebuilding and I'd have to will
myself to like go back in Cause.
It felt like a prison, likelike I just I couldn't believe
that I was voluntarily likesubjecting myself to do that.
I was like yeah, they're noteven paying.
they're not even paying me thatmuch like I'll find another job,
(17:14):
like why am I going to go backin there?
And I knew that I would likeeventually, I knew I would get
out of my car and like swipe mybadge and go up the stairs, plop
down to my desk and open up myspreadsheet and be like time, is
it 1.12.
All right, four, three hoursand 48 more minutes, and they're
finally going to let me go.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
And you all have to realize there was no like
scrolling LinkedIn.
Then there was no distractionsto be had because, like social
media, the internet was barely athing.
And then the antidote to thepain and suffering of a cubicle
farm was the open officeenvironment, which now has been
(17:54):
proven to be the worst possibletransition that the office
environment could have ever madefor any kind of productivity.
Yeah, I want to sit on mycomputer and stare at you.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I want to.
I want to look down a hundredyards and I want to see every
head above the desk.
I want to hear everything.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I want to hear every single one of them talking on
the phone, please.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Awesome, no distractions whatsoever.
Yeah, cause when I firststarted in that building we had
the old school high partitions,like the 60 partitions, which
obviously comparatively is a lotbetter.
So really it was just I couldsee the person next to me and I
could see the person cattycorner, so I could really just
see two other people.
It wasn't great.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
And for me, I'm like five feet tall so I couldn't
even like tippy toe up overthose things.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, but we were part of the.
We saw it go from that to likethe three foot, you know,
uniform across and then you justI remember we were just looking
down and I was like, oh, I usedto be able to see one person.
Now I see 75.
Well, that's beautiful yeah,and now.
Now we're all just trying to beremote no, we are just trying
(19:07):
to stay home office where wejust like where we're always
alone together what um?
so what did you be of careersand offices?
So, like, where did you?
You've been doing coaching and,uh, consulting for while.
But like, where did you getyour start?
Like, what did you do?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
So I was a civil engineer for the first seven
years of my career.
So my claim to fame now is thatI am a recovering engineer who
loves people, because it wasnever a career path that was
really right for my personalityand strengths.
But I was a math teacher's kidand didn't know what I wanted to
do when I was graduating highschool and dad says and you're
good at math, science, math andscience, you should go be an
(19:49):
engineer.
And I picked civil engineeringbecause it's the engineering
discipline where you get to talkto people the most Newsflash
for everyone.
If you're choosing anengineering discipline based on
the amount of communication itinvolves, you should probably
bark up another tree.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I got a biodigger because I thought I would stop
making sounds smart.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
I mean, I was very.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I was like very interesting at parties oh,
you're a female engineer, yes, Iam which definitely created a
little identity crisis when Idecided to finally hang it up in
the middle of the greatrecession and went through a
giant career change with no plan.
That seemed like a great thingto do at the time but I just I
was done and the recessionreally tanked the built world
(20:32):
industry, like the real estateconstruction industry, was
really really hurt by the 08downturn and so just everything
I was working towards andeverything that gave me the
opportunity to use my strengthsand skills within the
engineering environment was kindof stripped away Because I was
a little too early in my careerat that point in time, even
though I had been pushed up theladder quickly, I just couldn't
(20:53):
punch punch at that weight oncethere was slim pickings for work
and that's when I was like OK,I'm out of here.
And, if I'm honest, I took thefirst thing that came along and
it was managing an art galleryfor a single artist and she just
happened to kind of be batshitcrazy.
So I went from 10,000 plusperson worldwide engineering
(21:14):
firm to a single artist, smallbusiness Baptism by fire.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Talk about opposites.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
How long did you do that?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Only a year because the gallery ended up closing and
that's a story for another day.
But it was interesting because Ithink it was my first taste of,
let's say, an entrepreneurialenvironment or at least a small
business environment, which isnot anything I was ever taught.
That's not something we weretaught in the late 90s and early
2000s in school, especially inPodunkville, pennsylvania, where
I grew up, and it was my firstkind of exposure and taste to
(21:47):
that is when, I think inhindsight and maybe there were
some seeds that were plantedthere I ended up moving on and
worked in the nonprofit sectorfor like seven years, which was
never anything on my radar, itwas just kind of somewhere I
stumbled and it helped me kindof grow back up into a
leadership role and I I ran anorganization as an executive
director for like four and ahalf years and that's where a
(22:08):
lot of stuff started comingtogether, uh, where I kind of
found myself doing the things Ilove to do versus trying to seek
out what those were.
And uh, the it was a grassrootsorganization, had a ton of
growth potential, and so that'swhere I could tap into a lot of
that.
You know, I like to buildthings, I like to figure out how
to monetize the things I builtand it really created the
(22:29):
entrepreneurial spark that pavedthe way into the coaching
business that I've had for thelast seven and a half years.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Right.
Well, I mean, it all kind ofworks out for a reason and you
kind of move.
It kind of moves you along, soyou're know able to do that.
What, um, how do you typicallywork, like, who do you, how do
you find clients to work with?
And then like, in favor of thebusiness coaching and
entrepreneurial coaching, how doyou?
How do you go about that, like,how do you try to help them,
how do you try to find out, like, what the faint points are?
Speaker 2 (22:58):
so again at that it kind of goes back to what you
said is like things tend to workout and you end up like being
where you're supposed to be.
For me, one type of coachingled to the other, and so for the
first like five of the lastseven and a half years, I really
specialized in career and jobsearch coaching, primarily in
the tech sector, since that wassomewhere my former engineering
qualifications kind of resonatedand I came into the career
(23:21):
coaching space in what I thinkwas kind of the emergence of it,
and so I was able to kind ofride a wave that was on the
upswing.
And you know, I started by justgoing out and networking my ass
off.
To be honest, I just played thein-person card a ton.
I live way up in the mountainsin Colorado and I would drive
three and a half hours one wayto Denver like two or three
(23:43):
times a month to just go toevents, meet people and build a
network.
And that really played outwhile we waited for, like the
referrals and the organic andall that kind of stuff to pick
up, and now we have a nicelittle ecosystem there.
But what's been interesting isit's funny when you think you're
doing the work you're supposedto do and that you're doing the
work that's purposeful and thatwork actually creates the
(24:04):
foundation for, like, the thingyou're really supposed to be
doing, which is what paved theway for the business and
entrepreneurship stuff, becauseme, building a successful
business helped me realize howmuch I love helping other people
do that, and so now I'm reallyleaning into this kind of
business of coaching andleveraging the success I've had
in building a coaching businessto kind of drive exposure and
(24:27):
interest in other people,helping me do the same.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, no, I like the evolution and like the path and
I think there's such a big spacefor it because post-COVID, the
last couple of years of layoffs,there's a lot more.
I mean, there's no real suchlike job security is a myth.
Right, I'll let you go at anytime, but for the most part it
(24:51):
feels safer um, the everytwo-week paycheck, once a month
paycheck, versus working foryourself and unpredictable
revenue and all that.
But I think a lot more peopleare at least considering it or
stepping into it because they'relike well, I'm not sure, I
don't think my job's quite assecure as it used to be and you
know AI, there's so many factors.
So I think there's more andmore people with LinkedIn,
(25:14):
especially shifting away fromthe virtual resume and just how
to get another job, to like howto build a business, and there's
obviously a lot of coaches andso many different things to
coach, and so I think it willcontinue, you know, to evolve.
When did you start kind oflooking at LinkedIn and kind of
using LinkedIn, as you know,part of your marketing?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I think right away I started my whole business on
LinkedIn.
I've caught my first.
My first paid client camebecause I commented on someone
else's post and I got a DM and Iwas shocked when she was like,
here's my credit card.
And I was like, okay, I guessI'm actually doing this thing,
cause you know, I when I dothings, I kind of just do them.
I don't go and say, okay, whatare other people doing?
I don't get into analysis,paralysis.
I have a speed ofimplementation that can
(25:55):
sometimes be reckless Pleaserefer to aforementioned jumping
unplanned career change in themiddle of the great recession.
And so I just kind of was like Ihave a perspective on this and
I'm going to put it out there.
On LinkedIn and a recruiterposted something about how she
doesn't help people changecareers, she just helps people
find jobs.
And at that point that's what Iwanted to help people do.
(26:16):
Because I had done it and I waslike the first I was, I was
using a LinkedIn strategy.
I didn't know it was a strategyat the time.
I was the first one on thecomments like, well, people
change careers.
And then there was ding, theperson who wanted to change
careers was was in my inbox andso I knew I was on to something.
Then the one thing I will saythat I kind of regret a little
bit is I got so busy during thepandemic years that I really let
(26:42):
what was a very consistentLinkedIn effort start to fade
and I had to do a big lift toget that back, which kind of
stunk, because there was a hugeinflux of people during those
years and now gaining visibilityis harder than it was had I
kept up that momentum.
So I guess there's a littlelearning that came out of it as
well.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, the people it's funny, the people that started,
you know, like the 1920 21, ithas changed so much but they're
still teaching a lot of thatsame playbook, especially like
the bigger creators.
I feel so bad for people thatare like investing and buying in
that and running that playbookbecause it simply doesn't work
anymore and unless you have500,000 followers that it does.
(27:21):
Um, but yeah, the days of justposting and waiting for clients
like they're pretty much over.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, I had to tell somebody that the other day
because they're like you know,I'm doing all this content on
LinkedIn and I'm not getting anyclients from it.
I'm like you have to changeyour expectations of what
LinkedIn is going to do for youand your business or your brand.
I find it now is more.
It's a credibility builder.
There are some statistics on ifsomebody comes and looks at
(27:51):
your profile, their buyersentiment skyrockets.
So, like it does, it hasresidual, it has indirect the
direct lead generation on it isnot gonna happen quite as much
because there's so muchhappening there and at the same
time, we've got AI, which hasenabled everybody to be a
content creator just not verywell.
And so there's also.
(28:12):
There's not only a lot going on, there's a lot of noise.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, for sure.
I saw a post the other day thattalked about like power of
storytelling and telling likeyour story, because that's like
the one thing that AI tellingand telling like your story,
because that's like the onething that ai apt can't just
create that.
So, um, like there'll be abigger emphasis on the platform
of like your lived experiencebackground, if what your
thoughts we can.
All you know.
(28:36):
The how-to posts, I think aredead because there's no shortage
of resources now to learn howto do literally anything.
Um, so like.
I don't need a content creatorto like spell that out for me.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I I'm glad you said that because it's funny.
So I, you know, I spentprobably three years really
being consistent with LinkedIn.
Didn't go dark, but went quietduring the let's call it the
growth years of LinkedIn andcame back two years ago with a
vengeance and I was like I needto get consistent on here.
It's a huge brand builder forthe space that I'm in.
I'm gonna get you know, I'mgonna be on this mission to get
(29:09):
to a certain level of followercount, not because I wanted the
metric, because I knew it wouldhave to help me, what it would
make me do.
And I went back to the contentstrategy that I had, you know,
when I was starting out andhaving really great success and
great traction pre-recession,which was heavily researched,
long form, knowledge-basedhere's 10 things to put on your
(29:32):
resume and it was like freakingcrickets.
I go post a picture of my beatup, bruised and cut up legs
because I fell over on mymountain bike and it's like the
best post I've had all year.
And so I started thinking I'mlike, okay, what people want to
consume here is different.
Now is it?
It's always tied back to somesort of anecdote.
Right, it's still within thebusiness brand, but the more I
(29:54):
think, the more human and moreauthentic your content is
clearly, the more people want togravitate towards it because
they know it came from you andwasn't primarily AI.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, I tell almost all my clients like the more of
like that type of story, likefalling off a bike or just
something interesting thathappened to you or whatever, it
doesn't matter Like kids, pets,travel, food, hobbies, like that
type of stuff, like you'llreally like it, like they like
to see it humanizes you, theylike to see things you're doing.
(30:29):
Um, you know, obviously we'reall doing stuff besides just
posting on linkedin or whateverthe businesses and lives and
stuff, and so that's like yousaid, that's what draws people
in and then obviously, ifthey're interested in the actual
business, then that's justanother way to do it.
Um, but yeah, I still, youstill see a lot of people of
like.
You know, like you probably seea lot of like the billboard
(30:51):
quotes, like the adam grayquotes, and it's like I don't
need to see any quotes like I Iliterally could see a thousand
quotes in five seconds.
If I want to see a quote like Idon't need you to put it, just
scroll through instagram.
Yeah, right, it's like and it'syeah it's an.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
It's an interesting animal because it isn't the long
form knowledge-based mini blogs, almost that it used to be,
also because people don't readthat much anymore.
Sorry, y'all you don't, but italso is not the same strategy
and the same content that workson instagram, facebook and
tiktok to me doesn't resonatebecause it's that it's the memes
, it's's these like the, thescreen grabs of a I still call
(31:28):
it Twitter quote, like that kindof stuff I'm just like, okay,
scroll past.
I'm not inclined to to engagein it because it it feels out of
context and it doesn't, to me,spark discussion.
It's a scroll by versussomething that is human and
life-based, with a professionalanecdote that that to me like
that's, that's the authentickind of stuff that I think
(31:50):
people seem to want to engage in, especially at a time when
there's a shift in the wholekind of work-life dynamic yeah
for sure.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Um, but I think sharing like those stories and
the behind the scenes of likewhat you're working on and your
thought process about working onit.
Like I had an offer, I did asmall group coaching program.
I had four people.
I launched a second version ofit with testimonials and I got
zero people, um, so I thoughtlike nothing would be.
(32:22):
But like I had people thatvouched for like it's validity
and quality and how much theygot out of it.
So I was like you know, otherpeople out there are going to
see that and be like oh, likeI'm in.
Nope, Everybody was out.
So like on Monday I'm probablygoing to write a post that like
here's how to sign zero peopleinto your second group coaching
cohort and that will get a tonof traction and comments.
(32:46):
Right, because it will, because,like and I'll do it in a funny,
like making fun of myself kindof way, but like it's real, like
you don't see a lot of storiesLike you see a lot of like I
made 10,000 this month orcrossed X revenue in the last
year.
Do you see a lot of those?
I don't know how I'm assuming alot of that's made up, because
(33:07):
you don't see a lot ofscreenshots and I don't see a
great QuickBooks links to showme that.
But you can say whatever youwant.
Anyway, you don't see a lot oflike hey, I launched a program
and literally signed no people.
So I think in my mind, like youknow, add some credibility.
Like I'm not out here justbeing like I'm so great, I
signed so many people like no, Isigned none.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
And that goes back to a shameless plug.
Any of you listening should gograb the episode of no More
Mondays that David is on lastweek, because this is something
you brought to that conversation, which is our extreme risk
aversion and extreme fear offailure, is so badly that we
can't actually say, hey, Ifailed, but here's what I
(33:50):
learned from it and that's whypeople gravitate towards it
because it's human and it'simperfect, which we all are.
Newsflash.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, 100 percent, and that's and that's what I'm
going to do in the post, becauseI'll start thinking about it in
my head is like I'm going tokind of go through like my
thought process and what I did,and then where I think, like
that I went wrong and if I wereto do it again like here's, like
here's what I would.
If, if you're out therethinking of doing something
similar, like consider thisdoing it so there'll be some
(34:18):
takeaways I could be wrong, Icould be off base.
That doesn't really matter,it's just my opinion on the way
that it transpired.
But, um, yeah, so I and I likepeople that do that, where they
talk real and that you know theyit's kind of they call it
building in public, which Ithink is a little bit too
cliched.
But the same principle whereyou're just like sharing like
what you're doing and what'sworking and what's not, um, and
(34:40):
yeah, I think, and I, I thinkanytime you're working on
something.
Not that this is new for me, butit's a little bit new.
Most of what I did wasone-to-one.
Yeah, there's always risk,right, there's always like I'm
not going to do that.
That doesn't work for me.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
You can always find a reason, excuse, excuse.
You can always find a reasonnot to do something.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Always.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
There's always the there'salways.
It's always not the right time.
There's all it always is goingto be oh, I need more money or
they.
I'm going to wait for this,like you know, stars to align
kind of situation, butultimately, all you're doing is
delaying something that probablyshould be inevitable, and the
best time to do the inevitableis right now, and the worst
thing that's going to happen isyou go back to where you were
(35:26):
before.
That's the thing is.
We tend to like catastrophizethis stuff in our minds.
When, really, when you look atit and you reverse engineer the
worst case scenario of the thingthat you have so much fear
around, it's like oh, worstthing is it doesn't work out.
I either keep doing or go backto doing what I'm doing, and now
you have all that knowledge,and so I'm a I'm a big fan of
(35:46):
the I don't necessarily knowfail on purpose, but not not be
so, so fearful of it that youdon't you know, slip up now and
then.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, it's like the fail forward, fail forward
quickly, right yeah.
And if you're the action taker,so even, like you said,
sometimes to to the extreme, Ithink that's better in the long
run because you just learn somuch more.
The doing and the actionteaches you so much more than
like reading more books ortaking more courses or talking
to people that are doing it likenot, that that's not helpful
(36:17):
and you can still supplementwith that, but none of that will
.
I mean, I, I have an mba.
I've learned more in the lastyear of trying to run this
online coaching business than Iever did in two and a half years
of marketing classes andfinance classes and spreadsheets
and made up scenarios Like, notthat it wasn't valuable, I
(36:38):
learned a lot, but I did waymore, like if I was just sitting
in a job interview.
Now I'm just like, oh, like,I'll tell you all about
marketing in a way that I nevercould have a year ago.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
I call it an RW MBA.
Sometimes I'm tempted to putthe letters after my name.
Just be real cheeky and own it.
But it's a real world.
Mba.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah, no, it's, that's the yeah, it's so true.
I mean, it's like you said,it's the experience, the action,
real people like you're talkingto people and you have expenses
and revenue and you're tryingto sell and there's all these
different ways to market anddigital marketing and all this
stuff, and then you're just likeyou're doing it all the time
(37:17):
and you're just learning trulytrial by fire.
Or you're like reading atextbook and like doing like
some scenario for like nineyears ago, where you're like
analyzing it like it doesn'tmean anything to you, like you
don't even care.
So yeah, yeah, totally, totallydifferent I'm with you, I agree
what.
So how do you like?
(37:39):
What is your?
Not you have to get into likenuts and bolts of your program,
but when you find like a, let'ssay, a business owner needing
help in the entrepreneurialspace, like like, what is your
process in terms of like?
How are you walking throughidentifying like what they're
doing and then helping them getlike where they want to go?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I focus real a lot on come back, come back to basics.
I find, especially in thecoaching space and that's where
I really I really focus is kindof the business of coaching.
I find that and there's nothingwrong with what I'm about to
say, so I'm not shaming anybodyA lot of people, most coaches,
come into business because theywant to coach before they want
(38:18):
to own a business and so andthat, I believe, is why the
average, the average coach,makes like $56,000 a year.
Right, and there's a certainlimitation there because of the
mentality around why they startand how they treat the endeavor.
And so I've always looked at itas I want to build a brand.
I want, you know, I want tobuild something through serving
(38:47):
instead of instead of kind ofthis idea of like I'll serve and
see what happens.
And so you know, a lot of timesI'm coming back and layering a
level of intentionality andfoundation underneath that.
Ok, I want to go help peoplecoach careers.
Ok, who are they?
What's their problems?
What problems are you solvingand how do you exhibit a unique
(39:07):
value proposition to stand outin what's become a much more
crowded space?
The number of coaches has, Ithink it's doubled since 2019
and it's expected to continue onthat growth track, which is
fantastic.
Competition is not a bad thing.
It means there's demand, but itis harder to stand out and if
you're not really clear on yourmessage and who you're trying to
(39:28):
serve, the domain of coachingthat you want to specialize in
you're going to kind of get lostin the shuffle.
And a lot of times it's comingback to that foundational basics
and in doing so and really lookat like, how am I solutioning
things?
How am I packaging things intoreally high value things that
are like no brainers to buy?
You know, I've seen some reallyincredible things happen to
(39:49):
businesses just by small tweaksand mindset shifts well, I think
you know.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So two things you said there that really stood out
.
The last one, the mindset shift, for sure.
But the problem you solve, Ithink that's one of the biggest
places where people either don'tthink enough about it or or
don't.
Um, in a market that, like yousaid, is getting more crowded,
like you have to be very clearabout why someone will work with
you, like what exactly are yousolving?
(40:17):
I, I think too many people, andsometimes myself included, it's
a little bit too vague or it'snot quite specific enough, and
so it's hard for people to thenlatch on to like what am I
actually paying?
What am I getting Right?
And I think that is a problem.
And the mindset, for sure.
Simply, especially when you'regetting started, there's so much
up and down, there's such ahuge learning curve because
(40:43):
there's so many different areaswhere you have to excel.
Like you have to be mentallyprepared for the swings um,
great months, followed byterrible months, followed by in
between months and you're likewhat is happening?
And you're kind of constantlyplaying the shuffle game of like
what's working and what's not,and like do I cut bait with that
?
Is that good?
Do I just need to tweak it do Ineed to scrap it, need to hire
a new coach, right?
Speaker 2 (41:04):
can I just figure this out like there's, there's
all these things you're likeconstantly modeling, and I think
that's another issue wherepeople like really struggle and
the the patient, patience andconsistency and trust are huge,
which is a lot of what businesscoaching is is talking reason
into people that try somethingfor two weeks and assume it's
(41:25):
not gonna work, because you hitthe nail on the head.
And now that I know that thisis a show in which this is a
PG-13 show, where I can swear Icall that the entrepreneurial
mind fuck.
And it is these ups and downs,especially early on, but it
never goes away entirely.
You know, I have a multisix-figure business and I'm
still sitting here sometimesgoing it's all gonna burn down
tomorrow, right, like you havethese incredible highs.
(41:47):
Yay, I got my first client.
Oh my gosh.
I haven't even had a sales callin a month.
Oh my gosh.
I had my first 10K month.
Oh my gosh.
This month is 3000.
And you're on this, like youknow, roller coaster, and if you
don't find the consistentbaseline and that level set
within it to trust yourself andwhat you're doing, you are
either going to throw up or getoff that ride.
(42:08):
The first stop it pulls, pullsinto, and so if you want to have
longevity, you really have towrangle the mental game.
Successful entrepreneurship, inmy opinion, is 80% mindset.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
I totally agree and I don't know if that's talked
about enough.
I mean, there's a lot ofcontent on like the mechanics
and the structure and the offerand the marketing and all of
that.
You see a lot of that, which isimportant, but I don't think we
see enough of what you'retalking about and really being,
(42:40):
hey, just mentally prepared forthe ups and downs, but then also
it's kind of that unwaveringlike confidence and belief, um,
like in yourself and what you'redoing, because if you don't
believe it, other people aren't.
Who?
Speaker 2 (42:53):
is exactly, and that's the thing is.
If you don't believe in whatyou're doing and you have a
complete conviction around it,how the heck are you going to
sell it to somebody and feelgood about it?
Because that's the other thing,too, is being a conscious
entrepreneur.
An authentic entrepreneur iswhy we're not used car salesmen.
But if you're not trusting init, then why the heck are you
(43:14):
out there hawking it on thestreets?
Speaker 1 (43:18):
I thought that somebody wrote a post.
Uh, it said something like bestcoaches who get like, are great
with their clients and get thebest results are the worst sales
and marketers and the worstcoaches are the best sales and
marketers and it's likecompletely inverse and I thought
that was interesting.
I'd be curious to get like yourtake on that.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
I think that's not entirely true, uh, untrue.
I think it's just and and theand it goes back to like the
business versus the coachmentality.
Uh, because and and that I love.
I actually love selling and Ifeel like I'm a very good coach.
So, uh, it's an interestingquestion to pose for somebody.
But I only want to sell.
And sell is a weird word.
I also almost want to removethat from the equation, but
since we're there, we'll justkeep going.
I, I only want to sellsomething to somebody if I truly
(44:05):
believe it will help them andprovide the value, and what I've
done for myself is createthings that are packed with so
much value that they are veryeasy to present as a solution.
So I don't have to sell them, Ijust have to put them in front
of somebody in the context ofthe need.
So I have actually taken salesout of the equation, and that's
(44:26):
the game changer that can reallybridge the gap between a person
who feels bad charging peoplemoney for a service that has a
market value and somebody who'sgreat at selling whatever,
whatever comes their way, butcan't deliver on it.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah, that's interesting the way that you
package it.
I've seen more and more peoplego to like a tiered offering,
like a good, better best, forlack of a better description.
That's not something I've donemyself, but I'm wondering.
It seems like there's some goodlike psychology around that and
it makes the buying decision alittle bit easier, where you
know just have like one offer,take it or leave it, cause
(45:03):
people do typically like tochoose, but obviously you can't
give them too many choices.
Then they can't make a choice,um, but I'm wondering if you do
that or if you've experimentedwith the kind of three options
the one in the middle, itdepends.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I'm a fan, so it is.
There is something around thepsychology.
I mean, I think the salespsychology is just absolutely
fascinating.
If I had done, if now, if Iknew what I knew now about
careers and everything that wasavailable now, back when I was
choosing good old civilengineering because I get to
talk to some people I would havebeen a behavioral economist,
because I think this stuff is sofascinating.
And the psychology of how andwhy people buy still roots into
(45:40):
emotion and that's where I thinkthe whole, going back to the
fundamentals of you need to.
You need to give them somethingthat appeals to an emotion.
We don't sell processes.
Sell outcomes Doesn't meanyou're giving them false hope.
You're going to deliver on it.
But that's the important part,you know, and that's also when
it comes into the tier situationof it may or may not be
(46:01):
appropriate for your businessand how you sell.
There is a lot of data tosupport that idea that most
people will buy the middleoption.
However, I have found in thecoaching world, at least in
career and business coaching,two options is about as much as
we can present because they'remore complex.
But I do like saying here'sthis throwaway, that's a
(46:23):
downsell that gives youreference of cost to this bigger
thing that I have nowpositioned to have so much value
, it's a no brainer to buy.
So why would I buy a scope ofone when I could buy a scope of
four at only double the cost?
Right, it feels like you'regetting, you know, 50% more or
something like that in thepsychology, and then you deliver
(46:45):
on it and it builds the trustand everything like that.
Anytime I have tried a threeproduct approach is just too
overwhelming for people.
But I think it depends on kindof what you're doing.
But what I do in a call, in asales call, is I'm spending 20
minutes listening to somebodytalk about where they're at in
their business, what they'rechallenged by, where they feel
(47:05):
like they need help, and so I'vegathered the intelligence to
then be the advisor and be theexpert to say here's the right
solution for the problem youpresented by the way.
Here's this other thing that'scheaper, but here's the right
solution for the problem youpresented by the way.
Here's this other thing that'scheaper, but here's the right
option for you.
And it's a totally differentapproach to sales because it
builds trust from the beginningand you're the one who's hearing
(47:26):
them and you're building thatcoaching relationship and
rapport from the first secondyou ever get on the phone, so it
becomes very easy to convert.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, it's a good point about the asking questions
and listening.
I think that's also somethingthat should be talked more about
.
Like sales call is not get onand pitch your service and then
like do you want it, yes or no.
It's much more asking questionsBecause, like you said, you
want to work with the rightpeople, like you don't want to
work with everyone.
They might seem like a fit whenthey start describing what
(47:54):
they're dealing with and wherethey want to go, and you're like
you know what it's actually notwhat I do.
Here's someone who doesspecialize in x, uh, which is
why a network and referralpartners are great both ways, um
.
So I think that's reallyimportant to emphasize is like
asking those probing questionsand really try to figure out,
like what are they reallystruggling with and what do they
(48:16):
want?
Like what is their desiredoutcome?
And then, does your product orsolution actually deliver that?
And if it does, then great,we're aligned.
If it doesn't, saying yes tothem or or pitching them when
you're like I don't think thisis actually going to work, like
that's just going to end upcausing way more headache than
anything else yeah, I, I wassaying reached.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Everyone starts off on a sales call with me because
I don't want to work withassholes.
But I'll tell you this If youget to the end of the call and
you don't, one of the bestthings I ever did for myself,
because there's two things I ama fantastic salesperson Once
there's two things I'm not goodat.
Well, I'm not good at upsellsand resales.
So, uh, you know, I feel once Isell you, I feel like there you
go, you just got me.
(48:57):
And the second thing I'm notfantastic at is saying to
somebody no, I'm not your personunless I have the alternative.
So I don't ever want to just bethe no, I want to say the hey,
this person's better.
And once you build thatresource in that community for
yourself and you have somereferral partners, it actually
makes the fit conversationeasier because you have options
(49:19):
if they're not right.
If you don't have that, thenyou feel guilty and you got to
take them on.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
I don't have anyone else for you.
I'll give it my best shot.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, you're not my fit and Idon't know anything about your
industry, but hey, why not?
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Give it a spin, see what happened.
Um, yeah, and that's I mean,that's the other thing too.
Like talking about like nicheand like who you're serving.
That's a, that's an evolutionin and of itself.
Like a lot of people are like,oh, I'm just going to pick a
niche and that's my niche.
Like probably the um, you canpick one, it's going to change.
How do you start working withclients?
Their problems are going tocome and go.
(49:58):
They're going to change andevolve.
So, as your opposite of thiswhole, like just pick a lane
Similar to like picking a careerand staying for 40 years, like
those days are over and pickingone that you never leave is also
like it's just way too much,way too much volatility out
there.
So like be ready to be flexible.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
And we all grow and evolve right.
So for me, when I started andgrew in career coaching, that
was my zone of excellence.
However, that now became a zoneof competence, because it
enabled and helped me to developa new zone of genius, and
that's the thing is like.
We all are naturally growingand the beautiful thing about
(50:40):
entrepreneurship is it allows usto continue growing, continue
to evolve, continue to maybeshift careers and stay
interested in what we're doingwithout having to change jobs,
which is great for me, because Ihave a seven year itch and I
haven't and I've scratched it,but I've scratched it by
developing a sister brand andmoving on to business of
coaching from career coachingright, and I didn't have to go
(51:03):
out and job search or do a wholegiant career change because I
created an ecosystem for myselfthat would support that that's
well.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
That's well said.
Um, wasn't it awesome?
Thanks for your patiencethrough, uh, all the, all the
check glitches.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
It was worth it.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
So we'll see how this we're both recording.
So we have to get.
Something has to come from it.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
You're getting something from us.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Any final, any final thoughts, takeaways, and then
helping people find out moreabout you.
Where can they, where can theyfind you?
Speaker 2 (51:35):
My biggest takeaway for everybody out there, no
matter whether you're anemployer or an entrepreneur, is
you have more control and agencyover your career than you think
, and probably more than you'reexercising, and my challenge to
you is to leverage it.
And if you need help doing that, you can find me at
themoderncoachco.
If you are a coach looking togrow your business and if you
(51:55):
want to find out about more ofthe legacy career coaching stuff
, you can check outcareerbenderscom or just follow
me in my antics on LinkedIn.
I'm connected to this guy, soit's an easy way to find me.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
Love it.
You might even see her at ahome project covered in dust,
rocking the Pink Floydsweatshirt.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
That's right.
I do have some drywall mud togo sand.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
So there you go awesome thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Appreciate your insight thanks for having me.
Welcome to the Real you Podcast.
This is episode 42.
I'm David Young, your host.
I'm a LinkedIn content andbusiness coach.
I launched this podcast inMarch of 2024.
I find interesting people doingamazing things.
Today, I'm joined by AngieCowan, an executive and business
coach for high-performingleaders and coaches.
We will discuss her journey,how she uses LinkedIn, the joys
and frustrations of trying tofind your path as a solopreneur.
(00:21):
Now she supports other foundersand business owners.
She's based in Denver, Colorado, is a fellow classic rock band
and this week I learned she'salso a fan of the movie Office
Space.
I mean, who isn't, but whoisn't Right?
We will talk about that, andmore so after a whole bunch of
technical glitches and delays.
Thanks for finally being here.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
We are committed to bringing you this conversation
everyone, and you should be gladfor it.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
We started on Riverside, we went to Zoom, we
left Zoom and went to StreamYardand we are back on Zoom for the
first time ever in my 40 plusepisodes.
So who knows what you're goingto get out of this, but we are
giving it a very, very hardcollege try this, but we are
(01:09):
giving it a very, very hardcollege try and uh, apparently I
am a an interesting persondoing inspiring things.
So thanks, that's cool.
Yeah, absolutely.
Uh, you're in the mountains, umyou're.
You're a big hiker, you likemusic and office space like we
have so much to cover we havelots to talk about you had the
pink colloid shirt on.
You're doing a little househouse project recently yep,
exactly, I uh.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I stole that sweatshirt from my husband, who
has no reason owning it becausehe does not know classic rock
very well and he would bemortified if I told you that on
a program where other people areactually listening, um, and
it's my diy sweatshirt.
It is special when you, uh,when you see if you ever get a
program where other people areactually listening and it's my
DIY sweatshirt.
It is special when you see Ifyou ever get a Zoom with me
wearing the Pink Floydsweatshirt.
You've moved into a differentcategory of my connections.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I will add that to the mental notes.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Put that on your bingo card, David.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I'm not a huge Pink Floyd fan, but I do like classic
rock in general.
Same, but yeah, I can.
Well, it's interesting nowbecause classic rock is now like
all of the 90s.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
It is not.
It is not.
I was listening to an oldiestation one day and Pearl Jam
came on and I think I had aheart attack in the driver's
seat and I was.
I was like, no, no, no, no.
Classic rock was made in the60s and 70s period.
It is not in reference to howlong ago it was from today.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
This is true, but Pearl Jam has been around for 35
years, so they're movingbackwards.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yet I haven't aged a day.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Eddie has.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Oh, good old Eddie.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, he looks a lot like.
My wife saw a picture of himrecently.
She goes he looks like my aunt,like one of my old aunts.
What is he doing?
Like I'm not sure, I don't know.
I don't know what look he'sgoing for, but it's not a great
idea.
And then I saw pictures of, Iguess, richie Sambora's coming
back to Bon Jovi or they'retrying to get back together or
something.
I'm not sure.
(03:08):
Anyway, I saw a picture of BonJovi and him and they both
looked.
They did not look good Eitherone of them.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So I don't know what these rock guys are doing later
in life.
But it's I don't recommend it.
It probably involves too manydrugs in early life and a whole
lot of plastic surgery recently.
That just isn't working outinto a very good cocktail.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, that's a good point, Because the yeah, the
Sambora one, that definitelylooked like you had some work
done.
There was a lot of smooth, alot of smooth and stretched skin
in that picture.
But yeah, anyway, I mean it's arough life when you do that or
when you're on the road all thetime and you know your hours are
off and, like you said, likethe alcohol and drugs and
(03:48):
traveling, it's like, yeah, butother than Keith Richards and
Mick Jagger, it doesn't wearoverly well.
And even then, but they're likein their 80s.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, that's very true when you think about it.
I find it interesting, speakingof the 90s, that the 90s are
like a thing again.
So I have nieces that are intheir early 20s and they will
show up wearing like Nickelbackand Matchbox 20s T-shirts and
I'm like what's going on here?
Is it just a thing that we tendto like the music that's like
20 years older, Basically themusic our parents listened to at
(04:22):
the formative years, yearsolder, Basically the music our
parents listened to at theformative years?
I don't know, there's got to besome sort of data point around
that, but I still find itslightly disturbing.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
I find it slightly disturbing that anybody would
wear a Nickelback shirt Betterthan the wallflowers.
Yeah, maybe I didn't think aboutthat.
I have a buddy.
He's a teacher.
He teaches eighth grade mathand I don't know if he still
does this, but for a while he'sbeen doing it for a long time.
Kids would come into the classand they'd be wearing, you know,
(04:53):
guns N' Roses.
They'd have some type of rockT-shirt on.
He would say, like you have tobe able to name five songs, you
can never wear that shirt again.
Like don't walk in here withthis.
Like famous popular band andyou don't know anything about
them.
So like dip it.
And they'd be like wait what?
He'd like five songs, and youknow they're.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Like yeah, I don't know.
I highly respect that.
Yeah, I'm also side note, notas big of a Pink Floyd fan as
you'd think for having myfavorite sweatshirt with their
logo.
I fall more into the LedZeppelin heavy guitar riff type
of stuff more so than the jambandy land.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, same Pink Floyd's too slow.
My wife's a big.
She's a big jam bander so sheloves the dead and fish.
Spent enough time with her andI've listened to enough of it
that I can do some of it.
Um, but I grow tired prettyquickly.
I always joke like this isgonna be a long song.
Um, you know, you go to a, yougo to a fish concert.
(05:54):
You're like eight, so three anda half hours long.
Um, yeah, I like and you don'treally know where any one song
ends and the next one beginsyeah the same yeah, I honestly I
like the heavier, like I likesabbath and van halen, zeppelin,
for sure, the who, um, yeah, Ilike the real, like guitar
driven yep, like the heavyguitar and rock.
(06:14):
That's why I like pearl jam somuch, because I just thought the
guitar work was always, wasalways so good, um, although I
will say I think their mostrecent probably five or six
albums have gotten a little bitaway from it.
So I'm like a first five PearlJam.
I think those are really quitegood and then after Yield I go
pretty.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, og Pearl Jam.
My ultimate favorite, which Iguess is it's not so much black,
it's not so much classic rockinspired by classic rock, fringe
era.
The black crows are my favoriteyeah, I like the black crows.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Um remedy might be my favorite song of theirs um
robinson's are interesting,they're.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
They're interesting guys, interesting relationship
yeah, finally, after like 30years of making music and
they're in their 60s, theyfigured out how to actually get
along.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, yeah, anyway, I can talk.
I mean, I can talk, I can doall I can start a podcast on
music.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Do we now have a podcast randomly?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
talking about music, because I'm in.
Yeah, we can just do.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
As long as it is nothing past about the year 2008
, because then I'm useless.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, yeah, you've got.
You got me by like eight years.
So there's a show.
Have you ever seen the showbeats of them with jamie pops.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You know what that show is no, but I need to watch
it yeah, so it's a.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
It's like a modern name, that tune kind of.
So it's.
The idea is that the app,shazam, can name any song in
like five seconds and the end ofthe show is you try to.
You have to name songs thatquickly, but before that it's a
competition, so there's threeteams of two and then there's
like categories and whatnot.
Anyway, you, they playsomething, and then you get four
(07:59):
options and it's whoever canname it the fastest.
Well, I can name, and it'swhoever can name it the fastest
Well, I can name.
If I so, if I know the song,almost any rock, modern rock,
classic rock, alternative, somerap, some like disco, like I can
name it like almost instantly,like I can hear just the
faintest note and I can tell youwhat it is, and I can probably
(08:20):
tell you the song title too.
If I don't know it, then it'snot there.
But, I'm only good up until likethe late nineties, maybe like
99, 2000.
And then I'm out.
So like I need, like my wife,or like my oldest son is almost
16, because they have listened,they've kept.
I stopped listening to likeradio music because it's because
rock went away, right, itbecame pop and all synthesized
(08:42):
and like Justin Bieber and youknow Katy Perry and all that
stuff, and I just don't have anyuse for it.
So when those, so when thoseare the categories, I'm
completely useless.
But they're great, yeah, soit's right, so they're.
So I looked into it.
They've done like seven seasons.
I don't know when the last onewas out.
So I looked into it becausewe're getting way off topic here
.
People are tuning in like whatis, what is We've?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
never even gotten on topic so far.
So y'all are just tuning intoepisode one of a totally new
podcast.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Where's the business and entrepreneurial LinkedIn
talk?
Like what am I listening to?
I mean, you know, we startedwith Ted Glitches.
We just we're going to go heavymusic Anyway.
So there have been a couple oftimes when someone could not
name literally like sweet home,alabama, I mean the most, and
that's just one example.
But like songs that justliterally anyone would know.
(09:30):
You didn't have to know music,like oh yeah, I know that song,
piano man, stuff like that.
So I was like how are thesepeople on the show?
It didn't make any sense.
So I looked into getting on theshow.
Now my oldest son is not oldenough because I think you have
to be 21, maybe 18, and what Irealized in the process is that
they don't actually bring peopleon that know music.
That actually has nothing to dowith it, it's all performative.
(09:50):
So it's like will you dance?
Like with Jamie Foxx, like willyou be goofy?
Will you like triple high five,double triple high five, the
people to your left or right ifthey get one right, and that's
like what the show is.
So I was like oh, left or right.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
If they get one right and that's like what the show
is, so I'll think, oh, so it'snot really about like performing
game show contestant notcorrect.
Are you good at pub trivia,which is my jam, as long as
we've got the sub 25 year oldringer?
Speaker 1 (10:18):
right, right.
So then I was like, oh well,I'm never gonna get off because
I don't care about any of that.
I could name all those songs inabout half a second.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So yeah, you're not.
You're exactly the opposite,because you are not interesting,
right?
You're not even any showmanship.
Boom, I got it.
Boom, I got it.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, they're like oh , this guy is too good.
He's not going to dance but heknows all the song Anyway.
So yeah, there's, if you, I'msure it's streaming.
It's a, it's a Fox show like onnormal, so wherever you stream
Fox stuff, but yeah, it'sinteresting.
His daughter's like the DJ.
Dave Fox is good.
I mean he's an entertainer anddoes impressions and he sings
(10:55):
and dances so he's like theperfect host.
But yeah, it's good,interesting show.
And I remember watching Namethat Tune, like as a kid I
watched a lot of game showsgrowing up.
I'm 49.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
And I remember yeah because that's all there was.
There's all there was to watch.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Tic-Tac-Toe and Do-Good-Wild and Bob Barker
obviously practiced Right, butthey were the name that tune At
the whole, like I can name thattune in.
Like you know one note as a kidit didn't do much for me
because there songs they weregoing like you up and stuff and
I have no idea, um, so they didlike a modern version of that.
That would be cool, I'd be allright with that that would be
(11:28):
fun.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Motown, motown's the other thing I'm a ringer for,
because my mom loved thetemptations and the supremes.
Um, so what else should we talkabout on this now?
Speaker 1 (11:38):
music podcast well, we can talk about the Ghetto
Boys song in Office Space Die,motherfucker, die, because
that's that you did.
You did the meme this weekwhere the mirror Michael and
Peter take the fax machine tothe field and they destroy it
with the baseball bat.
It's one of the great scenes.
(11:59):
I don't know if that's the nameof the song.
I know it's Ghetto Boys and Iknow that's the.
That's what they play the alltime that they're.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
They're hitting it and you can just hear you can
just hear it in the in thebackground and I can't remember
where in it's around.
Maybe it's leading up to thatscene, but peter's driving
around the car and damn, itfeels good to be gangsters on.
So I always connect to the twoand ever since I but this was
just the other day everybody outthere who's this is fresh in
our minds.
We're in, you're just in, onegiant inside joke apparently
(12:27):
that david and I are now bestfriends after one podcast on
mine and this conversation andoffice space mean we're best
friends and you're all in ourinside joke.
But I posted that picture andfor some reason you, you, he
posted the damn motherfucker dieand then for some reason, all I
could think about all day wasdamn, it feels good, feels good
to be a gangster.
That movie is just so clever,so good.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Back to Ghetto Boys 2 , apparently Mike.
What's the guy I draw a blankon his last name, the Meebus and
Butthead guy, mike Judge.
Mike Judge, who wrote that, wasapparently a big Ghetto Boys
fan in the mid-90s.
But yeah, that's when Peter, Idon't know exactly sequence, I
haven't seen it in a while.
Yeah, that's when he's on hislike totally off the deep end.
Everybody thinks he's crazy.
And then, yeah, they'relistening to that.
(13:08):
That's when he goes.
I think that's when he takesthe uh, the drill and undoes the
door, because the door alwaysshocks him and so he takes it,
he sticks the lock off and thenhe's like cutting up the fish
and he goes and meets with thebobs.
And yeah, the whole, themeetings with the body, the
meeting with the bobs isprobably my favorite, that's
probably my favorite scene,that's just the whole.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Like that whole sequence is so great what I love
about the movie office space ishow pop culturey it became,
even for people who've neverworked in an office and don't
have the context oh for sure,because I didn't work in an
office, for my first jobs werein sales.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I spent seven or eight years in sales.
So I had a territory I was justdriving around and it was 2008.
I graduated from college in 98.
And yeah, it was almost 10years before I went into an
office.
But yeah, it was still funny,like just because.
And then, once I startedworking in an office, I was like
(14:02):
, oh, this is perfect.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Whereas so that movie came out in 99.
I graduated from.
I was in college to be anengineer, graduated in 03.
And I'm not even joking walkedinto a cubicle farm with gray
cubicles that look just likeoffice space in an engineering
office when half the peopleyou're working with are Miltons,
and I was like, oh wow, it'sactually true.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
So what is it that you actually do here?
Well, I take the paper, take it.
You don't actually deal withthe customer.
Well, like I'm a people person,I have people, you know, yep
there you go.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I'm a people person, I have people.
Yep, there you go.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Corporate accounts fail.
That's a moment.
Why do you ever think aboutgoing by, mike?
Why should I change my name?
He's the one who sucks.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
I just want to know where your TPS report is.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Did you not get the memo?
Yeah, I got it.
I got it.
We'll get you another.
We'll get you another.
I got it, I got it.
We'll get you another.
We'll get you another.
I got it.
I got it right here.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I think it would be really funny.
I mean, since they're remakingeverything from our generation
to appeal to the children thatour generation has had, I think
it would be really interestingto see Office Space in 2025.
Right With, like, the digitalversion of Office Space.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Like, oh, did you get my email?
Yeah, you know it's funny.
So when I was so, I started atCubicle in 08 and did that for
about 10 years, and then remotework and I came in, but at my
darkest.
So I had about four years14-ish to through 17, where I
was just in really ill-fittingroles and in the office, in the
(15:48):
cubicle, but just like I hated Ireally hated life and my
existence was horrific.
Um, and so I passed the time.
I would listen to podcasts andread books, but I would take
notes.
I had this like notebook, liketwo things one, the stand-up
comedy material for all thestupid shit that it said, like
the catchphrases and just like,how often do you say hi to
(16:10):
somebody?
Like if you see them sameperson, like twice a day, do I
say hi the second time?
Like I think I should get apass, like I don't think I'd say
hi again, but I'll see him athird time.
Like do I just give by with noacknowledgement?
Like I just didn't know, Anyway, so the second part was I had
this idea for what you're kindof.
What you're talking about is Iwanted to write, even though I'm
(16:30):
not a writer, like a, a muchmore like significantly more
swearing, like significantlymore depressing of just what
it's really like, Like itliterally just can take your
(16:51):
soul.
Uh, if you spend too much timethere, um, like I would go.
There were some days where Iwould just go sit in my car for
like an hour.
I would just stare at thebuilding and I'd have to will
myself to like go back in Cause.
It felt like a prison, likelike I just I couldn't believe
that I was voluntarily likesubjecting myself to do that.
I was like yeah, they're noteven paying.
they're not even paying me thatmuch like I'll find another job,
(17:14):
like why am I going to go backin there?
And I knew that I would likeeventually, I knew I would get
out of my car and like swipe mybadge and go up the stairs, plop
down to my desk and open up myspreadsheet and be like time, is
it 1.12.
All right, four, three hoursand 48 more minutes, and they're
finally going to let me go.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
And you all have to realize there was no like
scrolling LinkedIn.
Then there was no distractionsto be had because, like social
media, the internet was barely athing.
And then the antidote to thepain and suffering of a cubicle
farm was the open officeenvironment, which now has been
(17:54):
proven to be the worst possibletransition that the office
environment could have ever madefor any kind of productivity.
Yeah, I want to sit on mycomputer and stare at you.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I want to.
I want to look down a hundredyards and I want to see every
head above the desk.
I want to hear everything.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I want to hear every single one of them talking on
the phone, please.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Awesome, no distractions whatsoever.
Yeah, cause when I firststarted in that building we had
the old school high partitions,like the 60 partitions, which
obviously comparatively is a lotbetter.
So really it was just I couldsee the person next to me and I
could see the person cattycorner, so I could really just
see two other people.
It wasn't great.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
And for me, I'm like five feet tall so I couldn't
even like tippy toe up overthose things.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, but we were part of the.
We saw it go from that to likethe three foot, you know,
uniform across and then you justI remember we were just looking
down and I was like, oh, I usedto be able to see one person.
Now I see 75.
Well, that's beautiful yeah,and now.
Now we're all just trying to beremote no, we are just trying
(19:07):
to stay home office where wejust like where we're always
alone together what um?
so what did you be of careersand offices?
So, like, where did you?
You've been doing coaching and,uh, consulting for while.
But like, where did you getyour start?
Like, what did you do?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
So I was a civil engineer for the first seven
years of my career.
So my claim to fame now is thatI am a recovering engineer who
loves people, because it wasnever a career path that was
really right for my personalityand strengths.
But I was a math teacher's kidand didn't know what I wanted to
do when I was graduating highschool and dad says and you're
good at math, science, math andscience, you should go be an
(19:49):
engineer.
And I picked civil engineeringbecause it's the engineering
discipline where you get to talkto people the most Newsflash
for everyone.
If you're choosing anengineering discipline based on
the amount of communication itinvolves, you should probably
bark up another tree.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I got a biodigger because I thought I would stop
making sounds smart.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
I mean, I was very.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I was like very interesting at parties oh,
you're a female engineer, yes, Iam which definitely created a
little identity crisis when Idecided to finally hang it up in
the middle of the greatrecession and went through a
giant career change with no plan.
That seemed like a great thingto do at the time but I just I
was done and the recessionreally tanked the built world
(20:32):
industry, like the real estateconstruction industry, was
really really hurt by the 08downturn and so just everything
I was working towards andeverything that gave me the
opportunity to use my strengthsand skills within the
engineering environment was kindof stripped away Because I was
a little too early in my careerat that point in time, even
though I had been pushed up theladder quickly, I just couldn't
(20:53):
punch punch at that weight oncethere was slim pickings for work
and that's when I was like OK,I'm out of here.
And, if I'm honest, I took thefirst thing that came along and
it was managing an art galleryfor a single artist and she just
happened to kind of be batshitcrazy.
So I went from 10,000 plusperson worldwide engineering
(21:14):
firm to a single artist, smallbusiness Baptism by fire.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Talk about opposites.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
How long did you do that?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Only a year because the gallery ended up closing and
that's a story for another day.
But it was interesting because Ithink it was my first taste of,
let's say, an entrepreneurialenvironment or at least a small
business environment, which isnot anything I was ever taught.
That's not something we weretaught in the late 90s and early
2000s in school, especially inPodunkville, pennsylvania, where
I grew up, and it was my firstkind of exposure and taste to
(21:47):
that is when, I think inhindsight and maybe there were
some seeds that were plantedthere I ended up moving on and
worked in the nonprofit sectorfor like seven years, which was
never anything on my radar, itwas just kind of somewhere I
stumbled and it helped me kindof grow back up into a
leadership role and I I ran anorganization as an executive
director for like four and ahalf years and that's where a
(22:08):
lot of stuff started comingtogether, uh, where I kind of
found myself doing the things Ilove to do versus trying to seek
out what those were.
And uh, the it was a grassrootsorganization, had a ton of
growth potential, and so that'swhere I could tap into a lot of
that.
You know, I like to buildthings, I like to figure out how
to monetize the things I builtand it really created the
(22:29):
entrepreneurial spark that pavedthe way into the coaching
business that I've had for thelast seven and a half years.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Right.
Well, I mean, it all kind ofworks out for a reason and you
kind of move.
It kind of moves you along, soyou're know able to do that.
What, um, how do you typicallywork, like, who do you, how do
you find clients to work with?
And then like, in favor of thebusiness coaching and
entrepreneurial coaching, how doyou?
How do you go about that, like,how do you try to help them,
how do you try to find out, like, what the faint points are?
Speaker 2 (22:58):
so again at that it kind of goes back to what you
said is like things tend to workout and you end up like being
where you're supposed to be.
For me, one type of coachingled to the other, and so for the
first like five of the lastseven and a half years, I really
specialized in career and jobsearch coaching, primarily in
the tech sector, since that wassomewhere my former engineering
qualifications kind of resonatedand I came into the career
(23:21):
coaching space in what I thinkwas kind of the emergence of it,
and so I was able to kind ofride a wave that was on the
upswing.
And you know, I started by justgoing out and networking my ass
off.
To be honest, I just played thein-person card a ton.
I live way up in the mountainsin Colorado and I would drive
three and a half hours one wayto Denver like two or three
(23:43):
times a month to just go toevents, meet people and build a
network.
And that really played outwhile we waited for, like the
referrals and the organic andall that kind of stuff to pick
up, and now we have a nicelittle ecosystem there.
But what's been interesting isit's funny when you think you're
doing the work you're supposedto do and that you're doing the
work that's purposeful and thatwork actually creates the
(24:04):
foundation for, like, the thingyou're really supposed to be
doing, which is what paved theway for the business and
entrepreneurship stuff, becauseme, building a successful
business helped me realize howmuch I love helping other people
do that, and so now I'm reallyleaning into this kind of
business of coaching andleveraging the success I've had
in building a coaching businessto kind of drive exposure and
(24:27):
interest in other people,helping me do the same.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, no, I like the evolution and like the path and
I think there's such a big spacefor it because post-COVID, the
last couple of years of layoffs,there's a lot more.
I mean, there's no real suchlike job security is a myth.
Right, I'll let you go at anytime, but for the most part it
(24:51):
feels safer um, the everytwo-week paycheck, once a month
paycheck, versus working foryourself and unpredictable
revenue and all that.
But I think a lot more peopleare at least considering it or
stepping into it because they'relike well, I'm not sure, I
don't think my job's quite assecure as it used to be and you
know AI, there's so many factors.
So I think there's more andmore people with LinkedIn,
(25:14):
especially shifting away fromthe virtual resume and just how
to get another job, to like howto build a business, and there's
obviously a lot of coaches andso many different things to
coach, and so I think it willcontinue, you know, to evolve.
When did you start kind oflooking at LinkedIn and kind of
using LinkedIn, as you know,part of your marketing?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I think right away I started my whole business on
LinkedIn.
I've caught my first.
My first paid client camebecause I commented on someone
else's post and I got a DM and Iwas shocked when she was like,
here's my credit card.
And I was like, okay, I guessI'm actually doing this thing,
cause you know, I when I dothings, I kind of just do them.
I don't go and say, okay, whatare other people doing?
I don't get into analysis,paralysis.
I have a speed ofimplementation that can
(25:55):
sometimes be reckless Pleaserefer to aforementioned jumping
unplanned career change in themiddle of the great recession.
And so I just kind of was like Ihave a perspective on this and
I'm going to put it out there.
On LinkedIn and a recruiterposted something about how she
doesn't help people changecareers, she just helps people
find jobs.
And at that point that's what Iwanted to help people do.
(26:16):
Because I had done it and I waslike the first I was, I was
using a LinkedIn strategy.
I didn't know it was a strategyat the time.
I was the first one on thecomments like, well, people
change careers.
And then there was ding, theperson who wanted to change
careers was was in my inbox andso I knew I was on to something.
Then the one thing I will saythat I kind of regret a little
bit is I got so busy during thepandemic years that I really let
(26:42):
what was a very consistentLinkedIn effort start to fade
and I had to do a big lift toget that back, which kind of
stunk, because there was a hugeinflux of people during those
years and now gaining visibilityis harder than it was had I
kept up that momentum.
So I guess there's a littlelearning that came out of it as
well.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, the people it's funny, the people that started,
you know, like the 1920 21, ithas changed so much but they're
still teaching a lot of thatsame playbook, especially like
the bigger creators.
I feel so bad for people thatare like investing and buying in
that and running that playbookbecause it simply doesn't work
anymore and unless you have500,000 followers that it does.
(27:21):
Um, but yeah, the days of justposting and waiting for clients
like they're pretty much over.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, I had to tell somebody that the other day
because they're like you know,I'm doing all this content on
LinkedIn and I'm not getting anyclients from it.
I'm like you have to changeyour expectations of what
LinkedIn is going to do for youand your business or your brand.
I find it now is more.
It's a credibility builder.
There are some statistics on ifsomebody comes and looks at
(27:51):
your profile, their buyersentiment skyrockets.
So, like it does, it hasresidual, it has indirect the
direct lead generation on it isnot gonna happen quite as much
because there's so muchhappening there and at the same
time, we've got AI, which hasenabled everybody to be a
content creator just not verywell.
And so there's also.
(28:12):
There's not only a lot going on, there's a lot of noise.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, for sure.
I saw a post the other day thattalked about like power of
storytelling and telling likeyour story, because that's like
the one thing that AI tellingand telling like your story,
because that's like the onething that ai apt can't just
create that.
So, um, like there'll be abigger emphasis on the platform
of like your lived experiencebackground, if what your
thoughts we can.
All you know.
(28:36):
The how-to posts, I think aredead because there's no shortage
of resources now to learn howto do literally anything.
Um, so like.
I don't need a content creatorto like spell that out for me.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I I'm glad you said that because it's funny.
So I, you know, I spentprobably three years really
being consistent with LinkedIn.
Didn't go dark, but went quietduring the let's call it the
growth years of LinkedIn andcame back two years ago with a
vengeance and I was like I needto get consistent on here.
It's a huge brand builder forthe space that I'm in.
I'm gonna get you know, I'mgonna be on this mission to get
(29:09):
to a certain level of followercount, not because I wanted the
metric, because I knew it wouldhave to help me, what it would
make me do.
And I went back to the contentstrategy that I had, you know,
when I was starting out andhaving really great success and
great traction pre-recession,which was heavily researched,
long form, knowledge-basedhere's 10 things to put on your
(29:32):
resume and it was like freakingcrickets.
I go post a picture of my beatup, bruised and cut up legs
because I fell over on mymountain bike and it's like the
best post I've had all year.
And so I started thinking I'mlike, okay, what people want to
consume here is different.
Now is it?
It's always tied back to somesort of anecdote.
Right, it's still within thebusiness brand, but the more I
(29:54):
think, the more human and moreauthentic your content is
clearly, the more people want togravitate towards it because
they know it came from you andwasn't primarily AI.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, I tell almost all my clients like the more of
like that type of story, likefalling off a bike or just
something interesting thathappened to you or whatever, it
doesn't matter Like kids, pets,travel, food, hobbies, like that
type of stuff, like you'llreally like it, like they like
to see it humanizes you, theylike to see things you're doing.
(30:29):
Um, you know, obviously we'reall doing stuff besides just
posting on linkedin or whateverthe businesses and lives and
stuff, and so that's like yousaid, that's what draws people
in and then obviously, ifthey're interested in the actual
business, then that's justanother way to do it.
Um, but yeah, I still, youstill see a lot of people of
like.
You know, like you probably seea lot of like the billboard
(30:51):
quotes, like the adam grayquotes, and it's like I don't
need to see any quotes like I Iliterally could see a thousand
quotes in five seconds.
If I want to see a quote like Idon't need you to put it, just
scroll through instagram.
Yeah, right, it's like and it'syeah it's an.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
It's an interesting animal because it isn't the long
form knowledge-based mini blogs, almost that it used to be,
also because people don't readthat much anymore.
Sorry, y'all you don't, but italso is not the same strategy
and the same content that workson instagram, facebook and
tiktok to me doesn't resonatebecause it's that it's the memes
, it's's these like the, thescreen grabs of a I still call
(31:28):
it Twitter quote, like that kindof stuff I'm just like, okay,
scroll past.
I'm not inclined to to engagein it because it it feels out of
context and it doesn't, to me,spark discussion.
It's a scroll by versussomething that is human and
life-based, with a professionalanecdote that that to me like
that's, that's the authentickind of stuff that I think
(31:50):
people seem to want to engage in, especially at a time when
there's a shift in the wholekind of work-life dynamic yeah
for sure.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Um, but I think sharing like those stories and
the behind the scenes of likewhat you're working on and your
thought process about working onit.
Like I had an offer, I did asmall group coaching program.
I had four people.
I launched a second version ofit with testimonials and I got
zero people, um, so I thoughtlike nothing would be.
(32:22):
But like I had people thatvouched for like it's validity
and quality and how much theygot out of it.
So I was like you know, otherpeople out there are going to
see that and be like oh, likeI'm in.
Nope, Everybody was out.
So like on Monday I'm probablygoing to write a post that like
here's how to sign zero peopleinto your second group coaching
cohort and that will get a tonof traction and comments.
(32:46):
Right, because it will, because,like and I'll do it in a funny,
like making fun of myself kindof way, but like it's real, like
you don't see a lot of storiesLike you see a lot of like I
made 10,000 this month orcrossed X revenue in the last
year.
Do you see a lot of those?
I don't know how I'm assuming alot of that's made up, because
(33:07):
you don't see a lot ofscreenshots and I don't see a
great QuickBooks links to showme that.
But you can say whatever youwant.
Anyway, you don't see a lot oflike hey, I launched a program
and literally signed no people.
So I think in my mind, like youknow, add some credibility.
Like I'm not out here justbeing like I'm so great, I
signed so many people like no, Isigned none.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
And that goes back to a shameless plug.
Any of you listening should gograb the episode of no More
Mondays that David is on lastweek, because this is something
you brought to that conversation, which is our extreme risk
aversion and extreme fear offailure, is so badly that we
can't actually say, hey, Ifailed, but here's what I
(33:50):
learned from it and that's whypeople gravitate towards it
because it's human and it'simperfect, which we all are.
Newsflash.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, 100 percent, and that's and that's what I'm
going to do in the post, becauseI'll start thinking about it in
my head is like I'm going tokind of go through like my
thought process and what I did,and then where I think, like
that I went wrong and if I wereto do it again like here's, like
here's what I would.
If, if you're out therethinking of doing something
similar, like consider thisdoing it so there'll be some
(34:18):
takeaways I could be wrong, Icould be off base.
That doesn't really matter,it's just my opinion on the way
that it transpired.
But, um, yeah, so I and I likepeople that do that, where they
talk real and that you know theyit's kind of they call it
building in public, which Ithink is a little bit too
cliched.
But the same principle whereyou're just like sharing like
what you're doing and what'sworking and what's not, um, and
(34:40):
yeah, I think, and I, I thinkanytime you're working on
something.
Not that this is new for me, butit's a little bit new.
Most of what I did wasone-to-one.
Yeah, there's always risk,right, there's always like I'm
not going to do that.
That doesn't work for me.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
You can always find a reason, excuse, excuse.
You can always find a reasonnot to do something.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Always.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
There's always the there'salways.
It's always not the right time.
There's all it always is goingto be oh, I need more money or
they.
I'm going to wait for this,like you know, stars to align
kind of situation, butultimately, all you're doing is
delaying something that probablyshould be inevitable, and the
best time to do the inevitableis right now, and the worst
thing that's going to happen isyou go back to where you were
(35:26):
before.
That's the thing is.
We tend to like catastrophizethis stuff in our minds.
When, really, when you look atit and you reverse engineer the
worst case scenario of the thingthat you have so much fear
around, it's like oh, worstthing is it doesn't work out.
I either keep doing or go backto doing what I'm doing, and now
you have all that knowledge,and so I'm a I'm a big fan of
(35:46):
the I don't necessarily knowfail on purpose, but not not be
so, so fearful of it that youdon't you know, slip up now and
then.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, it's like the fail forward, fail forward
quickly, right yeah.
And if you're the action taker,so even, like you said,
sometimes to to the extreme, Ithink that's better in the long
run because you just learn somuch more.
The doing and the actionteaches you so much more than
like reading more books ortaking more courses or talking
to people that are doing it likenot, that that's not helpful
(36:17):
and you can still supplementwith that, but none of that will
.
I mean, I, I have an mba.
I've learned more in the lastyear of trying to run this
online coaching business than Iever did in two and a half years
of marketing classes andfinance classes and spreadsheets
and made up scenarios Like, notthat it wasn't valuable, I
(36:38):
learned a lot, but I did waymore, like if I was just sitting
in a job interview.
Now I'm just like, oh, like,I'll tell you all about
marketing in a way that I nevercould have a year ago.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
I call it an RW MBA.
Sometimes I'm tempted to putthe letters after my name.
Just be real cheeky and own it.
But it's a real world.
Mba.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah, no, it's, that's the yeah, it's so true.
I mean, it's like you said,it's the experience, the action,
real people like you're talkingto people and you have expenses
and revenue and you're tryingto sell and there's all these
different ways to market anddigital marketing and all this
stuff, and then you're just likeyou're doing it all the time
(37:17):
and you're just learning trulytrial by fire.
Or you're like reading atextbook and like doing like
some scenario for like nineyears ago, where you're like
analyzing it like it doesn'tmean anything to you, like you
don't even care.
So yeah, yeah, totally, totallydifferent I'm with you, I agree
what.
So how do you like?
(37:39):
What is your?
Not you have to get into likenuts and bolts of your program,
but when you find like a, let'ssay, a business owner needing
help in the entrepreneurialspace, like like, what is your
process in terms of like?
How are you walking throughidentifying like what they're
doing and then helping them getlike where they want to go?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I focus real a lot on come back, come back to basics.
I find, especially in thecoaching space and that's where
I really I really focus is kindof the business of coaching.
I find that and there's nothingwrong with what I'm about to
say, so I'm not shaming anybodyA lot of people, most coaches,
come into business because theywant to coach before they want
(38:18):
to own a business and so andthat, I believe, is why the
average, the average coach,makes like $56,000 a year.
Right, and there's a certainlimitation there because of the
mentality around why they startand how they treat the endeavor.
And so I've always looked at itas I want to build a brand.
I want, you know, I want tobuild something through serving
(38:47):
instead of instead of kind ofthis idea of like I'll serve and
see what happens.
And so you know, a lot of timesI'm coming back and layering a
level of intentionality andfoundation underneath that.
Ok, I want to go help peoplecoach careers.
Ok, who are they?
What's their problems?
What problems are you solvingand how do you exhibit a unique
(39:07):
value proposition to stand outin what's become a much more
crowded space?
The number of coaches has, Ithink it's doubled since 2019
and it's expected to continue onthat growth track, which is
fantastic.
Competition is not a bad thing.
It means there's demand, but itis harder to stand out and if
you're not really clear on yourmessage and who you're trying to
(39:28):
serve, the domain of coachingthat you want to specialize in
you're going to kind of get lostin the shuffle.
And a lot of times it's comingback to that foundational basics
and in doing so and really lookat like, how am I solutioning
things?
How am I packaging things intoreally high value things that
are like no brainers to buy?
You know, I've seen some reallyincredible things happen to
(39:49):
businesses just by small tweaksand mindset shifts well, I think
you know.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So two things you said there that really stood out
.
The last one, the mindset shift, for sure.
But the problem you solve, Ithink that's one of the biggest
places where people either don'tthink enough about it or or
don't.
Um, in a market that, like yousaid, is getting more crowded,
like you have to be very clearabout why someone will work with
you, like what exactly are yousolving?
(40:17):
I, I think too many people, andsometimes myself included, it's
a little bit too vague or it'snot quite specific enough, and
so it's hard for people to thenlatch on to like what am I
actually paying?
What am I getting Right?
And I think that is a problem.
And the mindset, for sure.
Simply, especially when you'regetting started, there's so much
up and down, there's such ahuge learning curve because
(40:43):
there's so many different areaswhere you have to excel.
Like you have to be mentallyprepared for the swings um,
great months, followed byterrible months, followed by in
between months and you're likewhat is happening?
And you're kind of constantlyplaying the shuffle game of like
what's working and what's not,and like do I cut bait with that
?
Is that good?
Do I just need to tweak it do Ineed to scrap it, need to hire
a new coach, right?
Speaker 2 (41:04):
can I just figure this out like there's, there's
all these things you're likeconstantly modeling, and I think
that's another issue wherepeople like really struggle and
the the patient, patience andconsistency and trust are huge,
which is a lot of what businesscoaching is is talking reason
into people that try somethingfor two weeks and assume it's
(41:25):
not gonna work, because you hitthe nail on the head.
And now that I know that thisis a show in which this is a
PG-13 show, where I can swear Icall that the entrepreneurial
mind fuck.
And it is these ups and downs,especially early on, but it
never goes away entirely.
You know, I have a multisix-figure business and I'm
still sitting here sometimesgoing it's all gonna burn down
tomorrow, right, like you havethese incredible highs.
(41:47):
Yay, I got my first client.
Oh my gosh.
I haven't even had a sales callin a month.
Oh my gosh.
I had my first 10K month.
Oh my gosh.
This month is 3000.
And you're on this, like youknow, roller coaster, and if you
don't find the consistentbaseline and that level set
within it to trust yourself andwhat you're doing, you are
either going to throw up or getoff that ride.
(42:08):
The first stop it pulls, pullsinto, and so if you want to have
longevity, you really have towrangle the mental game.
Successful entrepreneurship, inmy opinion, is 80% mindset.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
I totally agree and I don't know if that's talked
about enough.
I mean, there's a lot ofcontent on like the mechanics
and the structure and the offerand the marketing and all of
that.
You see a lot of that, which isimportant, but I don't think we
see enough of what you'retalking about and really being,
(42:40):
hey, just mentally prepared forthe ups and downs, but then also
it's kind of that unwaveringlike confidence and belief, um,
like in yourself and what you'redoing, because if you don't
believe it, other people aren't.
Who?
Speaker 2 (42:53):
is exactly, and that's the thing is.
If you don't believe in whatyou're doing and you have a
complete conviction around it,how the heck are you going to
sell it to somebody and feelgood about it?
Because that's the other thing,too, is being a conscious
entrepreneur.
An authentic entrepreneur iswhy we're not used car salesmen.
But if you're not trusting init, then why the heck are you
(43:14):
out there hawking it on thestreets?
Speaker 1 (43:18):
I thought that somebody wrote a post.
Uh, it said something like bestcoaches who get like, are great
with their clients and get thebest results are the worst sales
and marketers and the worstcoaches are the best sales and
marketers and it's likecompletely inverse and I thought
that was interesting.
I'd be curious to get like yourtake on that.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
I think that's not entirely true, uh, untrue.
I think it's just and and theand it goes back to like the
business versus the coachmentality.
Uh, because and and that I love.
I actually love selling and Ifeel like I'm a very good coach.
So, uh, it's an interestingquestion to pose for somebody.
But I only want to sell.
And sell is a weird word.
I also almost want to removethat from the equation, but
since we're there, we'll justkeep going.
I, I only want to sellsomething to somebody if I truly
(44:05):
believe it will help them andprovide the value, and what I've
done for myself is createthings that are packed with so
much value that they are veryeasy to present as a solution.
So I don't have to sell them, Ijust have to put them in front
of somebody in the context ofthe need.
So I have actually taken salesout of the equation, and that's
(44:26):
the game changer that can reallybridge the gap between a person
who feels bad charging peoplemoney for a service that has a
market value and somebody who'sgreat at selling whatever,
whatever comes their way, butcan't deliver on it.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah, that's interesting the way that you
package it.
I've seen more and more peoplego to like a tiered offering,
like a good, better best, forlack of a better description.
That's not something I've donemyself, but I'm wondering.
It seems like there's some goodlike psychology around that and
it makes the buying decision alittle bit easier, where you
know just have like one offer,take it or leave it, cause
(45:03):
people do typically like tochoose, but obviously you can't
give them too many choices.
Then they can't make a choice,um, but I'm wondering if you do
that or if you've experimentedwith the kind of three options
the one in the middle, itdepends.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I'm a fan, so it is.
There is something around thepsychology.
I mean, I think the salespsychology is just absolutely
fascinating.
If I had done, if now, if Iknew what I knew now about
careers and everything that wasavailable now, back when I was
choosing good old civilengineering because I get to
talk to some people I would havebeen a behavioral economist,
because I think this stuff is sofascinating.
And the psychology of how andwhy people buy still roots into
(45:40):
emotion and that's where I thinkthe whole, going back to the
fundamentals of you need to.
You need to give them somethingthat appeals to an emotion.
We don't sell processes.
Sell outcomes Doesn't meanyou're giving them false hope.
You're going to deliver on it.
But that's the important part,you know, and that's also when
it comes into the tier situationof it may or may not be
(46:01):
appropriate for your businessand how you sell.
There is a lot of data tosupport that idea that most
people will buy the middleoption.
However, I have found in thecoaching world, at least in
career and business coaching,two options is about as much as
we can present because they'remore complex.
But I do like saying here'sthis throwaway, that's a
(46:23):
downsell that gives youreference of cost to this bigger
thing that I have nowpositioned to have so much value
, it's a no brainer to buy.
So why would I buy a scope ofone when I could buy a scope of
four at only double the cost?
Right, it feels like you'regetting, you know, 50% more or
something like that in thepsychology, and then you deliver
(46:45):
on it and it builds the trustand everything like that.
Anytime I have tried a threeproduct approach is just too
overwhelming for people.
But I think it depends on kindof what you're doing.
But what I do in a call, in asales call, is I'm spending 20
minutes listening to somebodytalk about where they're at in
their business, what they'rechallenged by, where they feel
(47:05):
like they need help, and so I'vegathered the intelligence to
then be the advisor and be theexpert to say here's the right
solution for the problem youpresented by the way.
Here's this other thing that'scheaper, but here's the right
solution for the problem youpresented by the way.
Here's this other thing that'scheaper, but here's the right
option for you.
And it's a totally differentapproach to sales because it
builds trust from the beginningand you're the one who's hearing
(47:26):
them and you're building thatcoaching relationship and
rapport from the first secondyou ever get on the phone, so it
becomes very easy to convert.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, it's a good point about the asking questions
and listening.
I think that's also somethingthat should be talked more about
.
Like sales call is not get onand pitch your service and then
like do you want it, yes or no.
It's much more asking questionsBecause, like you said, you
want to work with the rightpeople, like you don't want to
work with everyone.
They might seem like a fit whenthey start describing what
(47:54):
they're dealing with and wherethey want to go, and you're like
you know what it's actually notwhat I do.
Here's someone who doesspecialize in x, uh, which is
why a network and referralpartners are great both ways, um
.
So I think that's reallyimportant to emphasize is like
asking those probing questionsand really try to figure out,
like what are they reallystruggling with and what do they
(48:16):
want?
Like what is their desiredoutcome?
And then, does your product orsolution actually deliver that?
And if it does, then great,we're aligned.
If it doesn't, saying yes tothem or or pitching them when
you're like I don't think thisis actually going to work, like
that's just going to end upcausing way more headache than
anything else yeah, I, I wassaying reached.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Everyone starts off on a sales call with me because
I don't want to work withassholes.
But I'll tell you this If youget to the end of the call and
you don't, one of the bestthings I ever did for myself,
because there's two things I ama fantastic salesperson Once
there's two things I'm not goodat.
Well, I'm not good at upsellsand resales.
So, uh, you know, I feel once Isell you, I feel like there you
go, you just got me.
(48:57):
And the second thing I'm notfantastic at is saying to
somebody no, I'm not your personunless I have the alternative.
So I don't ever want to just bethe no, I want to say the hey,
this person's better.
And once you build thatresource in that community for
yourself and you have somereferral partners, it actually
makes the fit conversationeasier because you have options
(49:19):
if they're not right.
If you don't have that, thenyou feel guilty and you got to
take them on.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
I don't have anyone else for you.
I'll give it my best shot.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, you're not my fit and Idon't know anything about your
industry, but hey, why not?
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Give it a spin, see what happened.
Um, yeah, and that's I mean,that's the other thing too.
Like talking about like nicheand like who you're serving.
That's a, that's an evolutionin and of itself.
Like a lot of people are like,oh, I'm just going to pick a
niche and that's my niche.
Like probably the um, you canpick one, it's going to change.
How do you start working withclients?
Their problems are going tocome and go.
(49:58):
They're going to change andevolve.
So, as your opposite of thiswhole, like just pick a lane
Similar to like picking a careerand staying for 40 years, like
those days are over and pickingone that you never leave is also
like it's just way too much,way too much volatility out
there.
So like be ready to be flexible.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
And we all grow and evolve right.
So for me, when I started andgrew in career coaching, that
was my zone of excellence.
However, that now became a zoneof competence, because it
enabled and helped me to developa new zone of genius, and
that's the thing is like.
We all are naturally growingand the beautiful thing about
(50:40):
entrepreneurship is it allows usto continue growing, continue
to evolve, continue to maybeshift careers and stay
interested in what we're doingwithout having to change jobs,
which is great for me, because Ihave a seven year itch and I
haven't and I've scratched it,but I've scratched it by
developing a sister brand andmoving on to business of
coaching from career coachingright, and I didn't have to go
(51:03):
out and job search or do a wholegiant career change because I
created an ecosystem for myselfthat would support that that's
well.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
That's well said.
Um, wasn't it awesome?
Thanks for your patiencethrough, uh, all the, all the
check glitches.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
It was worth it.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
So we'll see how this we're both recording.
So we have to get.
Something has to come from it.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
You're getting something from us.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
Any final, any final thoughts, takeaways, and then
helping people find out moreabout you.
Where can they, where can theyfind you?
Speaker 2 (51:35):
My biggest takeaway for everybody out there, no
matter whether you're anemployer or an entrepreneur, is
you have more control and agencyover your career than you think
, and probably more than you'reexercising, and my challenge to
you is to leverage it.
And if you need help doing that, you can find me at
themoderncoachco.
If you are a coach looking togrow your business and if you
(51:55):
want to find out about more ofthe legacy career coaching stuff
, you can check outcareerbenderscom or just follow
me in my antics on LinkedIn.
I'm connected to this guy, soit's an easy way to find me.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
Love it.
You might even see her at ahome project covered in dust,
rocking the Pink Floydsweatshirt.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
That's right.
I do have some drywall mud togo sand.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
So there you go awesome thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Appreciate your insight thanks for having me.
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