October 3, 2024 • 40 mins
Ever wondered how you can transform a toxic workplace relationship into a thriving collaboration?
In this episode, we unravel the example case of Maureen and examine how executive coaching can turn around even the most challenging team dynamics. We delve into the core principles of coaching as a client-centered, goal-driven partnership that stands apart from traditional training methods. By exploring the evolution of coaching practices from their mid-20th century roots to today's sophisticated blend of psychology and productivity enhancement, we shed light on the powerful impact coaching can have on personal and professional growth.
Trace the fascinating journey of business coaching from the 1980s to the present day, where concepts borrowed from sports performance have reshaped corporate strategies. We highlight key milestones like the founding of the International Coaching Federation in 1995 and dissect the nuanced differences between coaching and mentoring. Gain insights into how modern neuroscience and positive psychology are revolutionizing coaching practices, fostering mental health, engagement, and happiness in the workplace. This episode provides a comprehensive look at how these advancements are making waves in executive coaching today.
We explore the mixed receptiveness among coachees and the challenges of helping individuals who resist change or are uncomfortable with self-reflection. Learn why continuous growth and pushing beyond comfort zones are essential for sustained success and how long-term investment in coaching can drive significant organisational benefits. We discuss the financial aspects of coaching and advocate for broader access through technology. For those seeking to explore further, we recommend influential figures like Timothy Gallwey and Marshall Goldsmith, particularly Goldsmith's innovative 360-degree feedback concept. Join us for an enlightening discussion on the ever-evolving world of executive coaching.
For more info, free resources, useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
Reality Training - Selling Certainty
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
and how would your team respond to that?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
well, that's a good question actually.
Um, I think most of them wouldbe okay, but I think I'd be
concerned about um maureen andher reaction so you've said most
and you've said maureen, do youmean one?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
one person?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
well, of course it's maureen, isn't it?
I mean, she's mean, she's beena thorn in my side for five
years and I don't know what Ican do about that relationship
really, but everything I ever dois sort of couched in an idea
of what she will like and won'tlike, which I know sounds
bizarre, but that's just alwaysthe way it's been.
(00:45):
She speaks highly of you whathas to change, whether you're
changing something or you have adifferent kind of conversation
with her well, maybe it's timefor that, because we do have to
make some changes and there hasto be a kind of concerted effort
from everyone.
But I think if we didn't haveMaureen on board, then I think
(01:08):
we'd be back to where we startedvery quickly and by that you
mean a better place what do youmean?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
you said you'd be back to where you started if you
didn't have her no, no, I meanif we didn't have her on board
to do the changes we need tomake well yes, oh, I see.
So you're valuing her inanother sense she, you know
she's effective.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
We just, we just don't see eye to eye on just
about anything and I think thatgets in the way of, um, you know
, proper advancement so, by yourtone and the way you said, we'd
be back to where we started,not a good place with maurie.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
But you don't see eye to eye and everything.
If you could choose thesituation that you wish to have,
that is not just good for youbut for the entire organization
really, and especially the wholeteam, which is largely
everybody.
What is the right thing to do?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
well, I think I need to reassess my approach to
maureen, actually, because therehave been times in the past
when she's been great and we'veworked together and things have
gone well, and I think I've just, uh, avoided it and I think I
need to, I you know, rere-approach her actually.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So if you're serious about that, should we spend the
rest of this conversationabsolutely focusing on how you
might go about doing that?
Yep, let's do that.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
All right.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Good day, how are you , Bobby boy?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I'm not too bad, thank you.
Listeners who are familiar withmy voice will be aware that I
sound like a public healthwarning.
I don't know why.
I've got an immense cold andthat's made me slightly nasal,
but apart from that I'm well.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
sir, yeah, fine, I've just had family all staying,
and so that was lovely.
But also we repossess our homeagain, which is nice.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Very nice indeed.
So this episode is all aboutexecutive coaching, and this is
something that listeners willhopefully be aware that we do
quite a lot of.
So we have projects withorganizations where sometimes
we'll have a whole layer ofsenior managers that we will do
(03:54):
executive coaching with, andit's a subject that is quite
interesting.
You and I have been trained init, and we have a number of
coaches now on the books,including Anne and Jenny, and so
we thought it was time to do anepisode about this really
interesting subject.
And you've gone away and you'vebeen looking into it in some
depth, haven't you?
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, I have, and I'd love you to be the listener in
some ways, of trying to thinkabout it.
So if I say to you what iscoaching, and we do the Edward
de Bono technique called eyes ofa child, an 11 year old says
Uncle, trying to think about it.
So if I say to you what iscoaching, and we do the Edward
de Bono technique called Eyes ofa Child, an 11-year-old says
Uncle Bobby.
I heard this bloke talkingabout doing coaching at work.
What's coaching?
What would you say it is.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, my first response would be you're too
young to have to worry aboutthat.
No, I'm joking, that's good.
I would say.
Coaching is helping individualsto reach important decisions
about their work and their livesthrough inspiring conversation.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Jolly nice.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Not bad.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, I think we'll add to that only a couple of
bits is that it's certainly nottraining.
No, you're not telling theperson what to do.
As the coach, there's the andthe coachee.
It's client-centered, goldorientated, and the two of them
work together to help achievesome kind of goal or outcome.
And we'll look at how it'schanged over the years and I
(05:18):
think at the start, as bob said,we're looking more executive
coaching.
But there is also life coaching, career coaching, performance
coaching.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
There's actually little splinter fields coming
out of what was just oncecoaching, sure, and I suppose
the other thing is that you know, coaching and executive
coaching are particular businessinterventions, yes, or
individuals and sometimes groups.
But I think the other side ofit is, as individuals and as we
(05:47):
become more aware of our ownbrains and how they work, then
this type of conversationactually, I think, becomes a bit
more mainstream.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well, yeah, so if you go back to the start of when
this really kicks in and we havea couple of world wars, or
especially the Second World Warto blame for quite a lot of
stuff not, or especially thesecond world war to blame for
quite a lot of stuff not takingplace, but in the sort of late
40s and 50s, psychologists arethinking how do we increase
output and productivity, whetherthat's from a factory or a
(06:18):
service business or even anorganization, you know,
rebuilding a country post-war,how we've got lots of stuff to
do so?
Originally it was more aboutincreasing output and applying
psychological principles to that.
That's sort of the start ofcoaching if we go post-war.
But the argument is coachinghas been around forever.
It's self-directed learning,somebody asking an open question
(06:41):
and not telling the person whatto do.
So it's not new at at all.
It's been around for thousandsof years but no one called it
coaching.
But do you think?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
that's true.
Do you think that you know ifwe go back?
Do you, even if you go back 200years and think about certain
leaders?
Do you think they were coachesin the truth?
No, no, well, I'm not sayingthey were coaches in those
moments.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I'm just saying they were coaches in those moments.
I'm just saying a leader couldhave coached anybody at any time
.
Some leaders just told peoplewhat to do and of course, the
wars.
Always the argument has been inan army or in a naval context
or whatever, you have to havehierarchical structures and tell
people what to do and theyfollow orders but whether you go
back to the Socratic method orwhoever you want, you know
(07:27):
ancient Greeks holding classesand asking their students what
they think.
Coaching as a conversation tohelp someone come to the answer
themselves without being givenadvice isn't a new concept.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So actually that's an interesting.
You mentioned Socratic,socrates, aristotle, that sort
of thing.
Yeah, so we know that theywould wander around yeah
challenging perceptions oncertain viewpoints, and so
that's interesting.
So if you take that kind ofsituation where you're saying
this is how the world is, or isit, how else could it be?
(08:02):
And you're getting people tostart using their minds in an
inquiring way as opposed to in apassive way, that isn't that
what we're trying to latch ontoin the code well, if you then do
the diversion betweenphilosophy and psychology.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So if philosophy is more like that, why are we here?
What are we doing here?
What's the purpose?
What's god?
What's this in a organizationalwork context?
They would argue that's good,but we don't have time to do
that now because we've got toget 20 widgets out before four
o'clock.
So, yeah, we dip more intopsychology of how are we feeling
?
Why is he acting like that?
(08:39):
What's she thinking?
Is the respect?
Do they have a growth mindset,a fixed mindset?
Again, new terms, but ancient.
So then I think what starts tohappen in the 60s and 70s is
what you're just getting tothere and what you're surmising
about leaders is leadershipdevelopment starts to become
(08:59):
popular as a concept ofbehavioral change.
We can improve an organizationif we can improve a leader as a
concept of behavioral change.
We can improve an organizationif we can improve a leader.
And so if we get the leader tohave better habits the idea
being that they'll be modelingcertain behavior, but they may
have no awareness of how theycome across and no one likes
working for them and people areupset.
They're not very motivating.
They also go around tellingeveryone what to do and this
(09:21):
isn't working so much nowbecause we're not at war.
We're now actually growing,income's growing, we're
producing new inventions, cars.
Surely there's other ways ofrunning organizations.
You can be a leader in adifferent way.
So let's focus on the leadersand let's put some coaching in
there, because the leader mightchange their habits, which are
outdated already.
You know the old idea that evenin my father's time and your
(09:43):
father's time they would commenton certain people at work being
like a sergeant major.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
And so that's dying off.
I mean, we say it's dying off,you and I could go into a
business today that hasn'tevolved at all and is still got.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
You know somebody who's not democratic in any way
running it, and just this is myway, or the highway that of
course it still exists well, I'mjust thinking that you and I
started our working lives at theend of the 80s, beginning of
the 90s okay, so we would havehad bosses who would have
developed through the 70s and80s.
Okay, and I was just thinkingabout one of my bosses who I
(10:24):
used to work for many years ago.
I've mentioned him on previouspodcasts, so he's a friend of
the podcast in some ways.
When I think of that gentlemanand the idea of approaching him
and saying, look, I think youcould do with some executive
coaching.
That would really help you, Ithink I'm pretty certain what
the response would.
Be sure, so do you think thatit is something that, whilst
(10:47):
it's been around for decades,has only recently been seen as a
useful tool in developingbusiness people in recent years?
Speaker 1 (10:59):
I think it's always been seen.
Just the amount of people moreopen to it increases each year
is the short answer okay, okayso if we now cut to that period
of time, the 80s yeah, we're allinto goal setting and
performance enhancementsomeone's doing something.
How can we enhance thatperformance?
And of course this is wherecoaching and other contests like
(11:20):
sport massively increases.
So whether it's athletics we'vejust had the Paris Olympics
whether it's certain athleteshaving coaches who are, how does
that feel, how is that working?
When you came down the backstraight, what was it feeling
like in your legs?
Do you think you could go a bitfaster rather than run like
this, run like this, run likethat?
So performance enhancement andthe idea of having a coach in
(11:44):
your sporting discipline becomeseven more popular.
And so then you get coaches ina number of fields and it's goal
setting and enhancement.
We're going away from that kindof desire for output.
Can we get more loaves of breadout?
Because that isn't going tonecessarily help us.
And then in the 1990s you havethe first development of the ICF
, the International CoachingFederation, which set standards
(12:05):
and ethics.
So there's no standards andethics set by a governing body
till 1995.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And who was that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Well, one of the people, one of the founders, is
Thomas J Leonard, who created abusiness called Coach U, which
is still running.
He is often nicknamed as thefather of modern coaching
because he helped set standardsthat then formed part of the icf
.
Okay, but if you want to knowabout people, there's him.
There's also a very famous bookcalled the inner game of tennis
(12:36):
by timothy galway, who put itout there in a book that it
isn't your ability to servevolley underarm backhand, it's
how, what's going on in yourbrain.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
So, and he wrote other books like the inner game
of golf, and then he also wrotethe inner game of business,
meaning that it's how wementally feel about it, not our
skill in in a task I suppose thepopularity of sport yeah means
that that is a easy segue fromlook how well these people are
(13:07):
doing being coached to how do weutilize this in business, and
that's why you see so manysports people doing speeches at
absolutely company conferencesand that sort of thing.
However, I'm not sure thatthose messages have necessarily
translated completely from onediscipline to another?
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Not at all.
But also we should make thepoint that some sports coaches
don't coach, they mentor andtrain and they tell their
players exactly what to do.
There are other coaches andwhen I went to Wimbledon this
year what I loved watching wasthe coaches in the box and there
were some who were justmotivating with body language,
going, yes, come on, brilliant.
And there were others who werepointing, going hit his backhand
(13:49):
, hit his backhand, hit hisbackhand, lob him, lob him, lob
him, lob him, he's crap at thenet.
They were telling their playerswhat.
There was a German guy calledHanfman and his coach I looked
him up Portuguese guy.
He just smiled, grinned,nothing else.
He could easily have saidchange game and that guy took a
set off Yannick Sinner.
So who knows?
So quite interesting thatdifferent coaches.
I'm sure there are sportscoaches who are booked and paid
(14:14):
big money to actually allow theowners of a football team to try
to progress, and we could namesome now, but it might be
slanderous.
There are football coaches, ifwe take football, who are known
to come in and tell everybodywhat to do in order to win a
medal, but no one likes workingunder them.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
No, I mean, one of the ones that people did like
working under was the late greatBobby Robson who famously was
very close to all of his playersand very supportive and a
father figure in some ways.
He didn't know any other way todo it.
You know, I can't think ofanybody in business who I've
(14:53):
worked with who I would put intothat category, but maybe that's
because they haven't beencoached.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
so tell us more about you know the current situation
well, if you sort of come uptoday more and more as you
already hinted at yourselfearlier neuroscience we learn
more about the brain with almostevery passing week.
We've sectioned the brain outbeautifully.
Now we know about chemicalsbeing released and not released,
and you know and also I thinkpeople's understanding of mental
(15:21):
health is increased that theyknow certain people struggle to
feel emotions because they don'tproduce the chemicals.
But we're now in an era ofpositive psychology.
That's kind of where we areMore and more evidence that if
we practice certain behaviourswe're more likely to feel
happier, likely to feel moreengaged, involved, so on and so
(15:41):
on.
We're also in an era wherewe're gathering evidence.
We're still in a veryevidence-based, proof-based era
where people want proof beforethey invest.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So it's weird.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
There's all those wonderful developments in
science, but also prove it,prove it.
Prove it.
And that's also because we'vehad a whole shift of
face-to-face coaching.
Or come to my office at thebottom of my garden or we'll do
it in my front room of my house,or I rent a little place in a
university building.
Face-to-face coaching is nowtotally gone.
(16:13):
It exists with some people, butmost people, wherever they are
in the world, they coach throughZoom, teams and so on.
So there's been a massive shiftin the pandemic to use online
tools, online coaching, whichshould drive the cost down,
because one of the other thingswe're talking about leaders is
most of the people who getcoaching earn higher salaries
and can afford it.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
But then they wouldn't necessarily pay for it,
would they?
Their companies would probablybe paying for it.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Their companies would .
But if they, yes, but I supposethe smaller the company gets,
the closer they see it to beingtheir money potentially.
But yes, that's true.
And I suppose the other verycurrent thing and then I'll give
you some numbers which arequite well, play a guessing game
with you, you'll enjoy that.
The other trends, of course,are diversity.
So who else is being neglected,not being given coaching, more
(16:57):
equity and inclusion?
Can we get more people to becoached?
The other thing that iscompletely a fact of now is this
whole personal well-being andwork-life balance.
No one has to sort of separatethose out, because for years we
go let's talk about yourwork-life balance and now let's
get back to work.
Well, hang on, it's allconnected.
So I think there's anunderstanding that work-life
(17:19):
balance is part of it.
Should we play a game of somenumbers?
Just on the UK, go for it.
How many registered businessesdo you think are in the UK?
So they're fully registered,they're not illegal, they're up
for paying tax if they earn it.
How many registered businessesare in the UK?
So our little island, if you'relistening from abroad, or
another country?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
It's got to be quite high.
It's got to be quite high.
I think it's something like200,000.
Oh, much higher Think of allthe one-man bands and one-woman
bands Higher, higher, higher.
Okay, 4 million 5.5 million.
Wow, there's 5.5 millionbusinesses in the.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
UK Of a population of 70 million.
Exactly Huge amounts of soletraders.
Also people who are doing alittle side hustle, but they're
registered because they mightneed to pay a bit of tax and
also they might be buying goods.
So now you've got that in yourhead and you're listening to us
and you know we're a littleisland.
Here we are 5.5 millionregistered businesses.
(18:17):
So how many coaches are known?
And this is, this is some formof estimates based on people
who've taken courses and variouspeople researching who offers
coaching, but there's anestimate of how many coaches
there are in the uk who areeither part-time or full-time
and actually offering coachingservices well, if there's 5
(18:38):
million businesses, there'sprobably something like 100,000
coaches.
No way less.
20,000 coaches.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Okay, so this is a very good opportunity, exactly
right.
That's big Wow.
Okay, that's really that'samazing.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
It is, isn't it?
So I was playing with that ideathat even in a very small
geographical context which iswhat happens, by the way, in
counselling People go forcounselling in a geographical
area.
Who's the best counsellor inBucks for my son, daughter, me,
my wife, whatever?
But coaching is kind ofbypassing that now and it's
(19:19):
global.
I think one of theopportunities for coaches is to
set themselves up geographically.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I think everyone works from home these days, so
yes, why wouldn't you?
But actually it doesn't mattergeographically, it's all over,
zoom.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
No, it doesn't.
It is but counselling's not.
Some counselling is online buta lot of people don't want it
online.
They want it face to face.
I know absolutely, but that'sthe same number, just so you
know, in the research,registered counsellors and we
can talk about the differencebetween that, if you like.
Registered counsellors is thesame number of registered
coaches.
So we have a mental healthcrisis and we have a coaching
(19:52):
crisis.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
We do.
I was thinking, as you weretalking about an episode we did
a little while ago, around allthe different things that senior
people can do to developthemselves, of which executive
coaching was one of them, andyou've mentioned some of the
things that you might touch upon, like work-life balance, and
(20:14):
our example at the beginning ofthis episode was an individual
that somebody's having to workwith and how they manage that
relationship.
What kind of outcomes have youseen from executive coaching?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I would say from my work you mean just me team and
collaboration improvement numberone.
So you've got somebody runninga team, whatever level of leader
they are, and the team isdysfunctional, in their words,
often, and they're often thedysfunctional person, ironically
.
But um, happier teams, I think,is the outcome because the team
(20:46):
are inconsistent.
They're all playing slightlydifferent games, using different
methods, so the team isn'tcohesive.
So one person's a maverickdoing it their way.
Another one's got a tried andtested.
Six of them are using thesystem that's been invested all
over the shop a great leader.
So one person's a maverickdoing it their way.
Another one's got a tried andtested.
Six of them are using thesystem that's been invested all
over the shop.
A great leader can actually tryto bind the team to all play the
(21:07):
same game, so it's a fair field.
And then there's consistency,collaboration and so on.
That's my number one.
I think the other one is forsome people is complete clarity
of what they want to do.
They're doing something thatdoesn't inspire them and then
they actually go.
Do you know?
I want to do this.
I want to leave, or I want tomove that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
So that's much more personal, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, Because I've got to a depth.
Well, we should make the pointthat some of my coachees don't
open up to me and so after a fewsessions I'm saying you know,
I'm not really getting far,we're not really working on
anything major.
What is it?
And it's not for everyone.
Some people don't like coachingat all, don't want to be asked,
don't like to think in this way.
It's an intervention that won'twork for everybody at all.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Well, I suppose, as we said earlier, you are helping
the person to come to ideas anddecisions about ways that they
can change and make changes, andwe know that many people
struggle with that fundamentalpoint of how do I change?
And, having had coaching myself, there are times when you have
(22:11):
a session and go wow, that's agreat idea, I'm going to
immediately apply that,immediately do something about
it.
It can take a few sessions toget to that point.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I think the other thing is, if you think of our
coaching that we're doing andour coaches are doing, we're
doing it for relatively largeorganizations, sometimes massive
organizations.
So some of the people are veryhappy to be paid a salary to do
their work, but they don'treally want to get too
interested in changing it, asyou say, changing it.
Their purpose isn't defined bytheir work.
They have other interestsoutside.
(22:48):
But then of course, some peopleare on a career ladder and go
yes, I can make this team betterand actually if I do that, I
can hop, skip and jump overthere and earn another 25 grand
and be headhunted.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yes, we get people are are very ambitious or they
just ambitious to do a good jobI think sometimes in that
situation you get people whounderstand conceptually what
needs to happen but have nofaith whatsoever in their
people's abilities to interpretthat into a successful action,
(23:18):
and and so they almost see whatthey do, what their people do
and the link between them, whichcould be success or not, as
something distant, as somethingthat's never going to come to
fruition, because of theircomplete lack of faith in the
people they work with.
It's a tough one.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Well, complete lack of faith, either in the people
who are supporting them asleaders to help, or complete
lack of faith either in thepeople who are supporting them
as leaders to help, or completelack of faith in all the people
doing the job.
Which begs the question is whywe recruited them and were you
involved?
What's going on there?
So the thing about coaching isit can expose huge weaknesses in
people who've been with thepeter principle, you know,
(23:58):
promoted to a level beyond theirlevel of competence often, but
it also can expose where theother links are breaking down,
because they'll often share withyou.
My problem isn't this, it'sthis or it's this.
These two people aren't alignedwith me and you can often find
out, you know, where the thing'sbreaking down.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Okay, yep, okay, yep you're listening to the reality
of business brought to you byreality training.
Selling certainty.
We're a leading sales trainingand coaching company based in
the uk.
For information on how we helpour clients improve their
businesses, check out ourwebsite realitytrainingcom.
(24:38):
Check out our websiterealitytrainingcom.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
So here's a question.
So we've talked a lot about howcoaching helps teams, people,
individuals, performancestrategies.
What would you say to anexecutive who says to you I
don't need any executivecoaching, I'm very successful
(25:05):
and I don't need it and I'm justdoing so well.
How would you respond to that?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
I'd say they're probably wrong in that they
don't want it, but they do needit.
And again, you try gettingsomeone to take a vaccine who
doesn't believe in a vaccine.
You try telling somebody tobelieve in God when they don't.
These are huge beliefs, so thatsome people will not be open to
any intervention of learning orchanging at all at all.
No, of course.
So when someone says I'm fine,I don't want it, the timing
(25:38):
could be wrong.
And again, the other thingwhich is interesting about
coaching and counselling andI've had this with some of my
clients is they open up, andthen they really open up, and
then there's a big load of otherwork that needs doing, because
actually the biggest problemisn't anything to do with work,
it's to do with their childhoodor whatever else.
And so some people don't wantto scratch the veneer because
they might break down completelyand they're just managing some
(26:00):
level of control.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
But then doesn't that sort of make it sound quite
interesting that when things aregoing well, you just think I
don't need it, okay, and I'lljust sit here and ride it out,
and when things get tough, youneed training or coaching or
whatever it will be that willimprove that coaching or
(26:22):
whatever it will be that willimprove that.
However, I think it's probablytrue that very successful people
continually need to be pushed,yeah, yeah, and I think quite
often we say to people incoaching how are you happy about
having some challenge in thesesessions?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
what level are you up to?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
yeah, and they all go , oh, you know, go for your life
.
And then you start challengingthem and they go.
Well, hey, hang, hey, hang onsunshine.
Because actually you're forcingtheir brains to go beyond the
comfortable positive situationthey're in.
There's no harm in that, butthey I think possibly many a lot
of the time cannot see wherethe value is in that, even
(26:57):
though it growth it's, you know,it's wider yeah, because
potentially they've always beenmeasured on something else which
might be output.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
It might be revenue, profit, growth, numbers, volume,
the quantifiableness.
So this is the other thingabout coaching is that more and
more tools and tracking is taken.
So when people ask about thefuture of it, more analytics and
tracking.
So somebody had coaching twoyears ago, three years ago,
(27:27):
where are they now?
Let's track back that thatcoaching's worked.
It's not being measured overthat period of time at all, it's
short term.
How have they changed in thethree months of coaching?
Well, they've changed a bit,but, let's face it, it takes
quite a long time to change.
The three months of coaching.
Well, they've changed a bit,but let's face it, it takes
quite a long time to change.
So measuring will change longerterm growth.
You know, I always use theanalogy that when you go to
school and you're 13 and you say, or you're 11 and you say, I
(27:51):
want to do the subjects I like ahistory, french and English you
work on them for years beforeyou're tested, you work on them
again for another two years.
If you're staying on doingA-levels for another two years
and yet, bizarrely, businessseems to think can we just do
this very quickly and get aresult?
Probably not.
You've probably got to work onit.
(28:11):
You bring up the point aboutlonger term.
The other thing about, Isuppose, human beings is we're
in the habit of buying curesrather than preventatives.
We always have been.
That's how medicine's marketed.
And if you look at our state ofmental health now, it's only
when a crisis and you'll knowthis from your work in
Samaritans, it's only a crisispoint that an intervention takes
(28:35):
place.
So wouldn't it be wonderful ifwe had far more preventative
work taking place?
And if you take that incoaching and someone had
coaching when things were goingwell, as you say, they'd be
flipping well prepared for whenthey didn't, which might only be
six weeks later.
Yeah, but that isn't how peoplethink, because who owns the
company or the board?
(28:56):
If they're looking at thebottom line of profits money,
income fluctuations they don'treally want to have to pay for
this.
We hope everyone's brilliant.
Why have we got to pay for it?
So we have to do it.
If this person's ill ininverted commas.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Let's offer them coaching, so should companies
offer it to all executives allthe time.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Well, very interesting.
So coaching well, not justexecutives.
Interesting so coaching, well,not just executives.
So, if you like, coaching forunderrepresented groups, the
growing demand for coaching thatjust supports people advancing
their careers or advancing avoice that doesn't get heard, I
think that's going to change.
At the moment, it seems to besomething that's priced at a
(29:39):
certain point.
We can talk about prices.
We can do another little quizin a minute.
I'll ask you what you thinkabout the different prices of
what people are charging.
You'll enjoy that.
Okay, we'll talk money in aminute, because people are
wondering what this costs.
But at the moment, coaching isfor the rich or the well-off,
and as is private mental healthsupport.
You know there's a number ofmental well-being supports that
(30:04):
are only quite costly in theirthing.
So wouldn't it be great if wecould, either through AI or tech
, we could bring down the costof coaching and more people
could have it?
I think there's a.
I had an interview with thisguy in India who's developed an
online coaching system and itasks you questions and you start
to answer them and, bizarrely,you just feel better, even
(30:25):
though it's a computer.
Wow, because it just coachesyou.
You actually say I'm notfeeling too good.
Well, what's led to that?
You start to speak and asyou're speaking and hearing, you
start to come up with otherthings to do.
Should we talk money?
Yeah, let's hear it.
Well, it's going to have yousome guessing, actually.
(30:45):
So let's start with the lowest,the lowest amount of money that
has been found by various siteswhere people have submitted
what they charge.
There is a low bar for coachingon an hourly rate.
What do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Is it executive coaching or any coaching?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yes, no, no executive coaching.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Well, it's got to be £50 an hour, £100 an hour, £100,
£100, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
So £100 an hour is kind of meant to be sort of the
entry-level rate for executivecoaching.
Let's now go to the veryhighest amount that some people
command per hour, and of courseit adds up over a period of time
.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's got to be £1,000 .
Speaker 1 (31:26):
It is exactly right spot on.
Okay, yeah.
So the mean rates there's quitea lot between 300 and 600.
That's your kind of highestaccess point and that's again
because these are executives whoare on higher salaries.
It's deemed valuable.
But imagine if the tracking andthe measuring took place over
years and they paid a coach fourgrand, five grand, for a period
(31:50):
of time they did companyinnovations.
The company turned over anothermillion, they took on 16.
Then it'd be, oh god, it's likepaying a fiver if they tracked
it.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
It comes back to our original point, though.
If you're not doing executivecoaching with your senior people
, what are you doing with them?
Because they don't need atraining course.
So if you did do a trainingcourse, you'd be spending at
least that.
So actually it's spread outover a longer period it's
arguably a better investment.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
That is the interesting point.
What are you doing?
And some people don't wantanything, as we know, don't want
to develop.
But the attraction of coachingis it's all about you and you'll
be asked the questions.
Come to your own ideas.
But some people don't even wantthat and also some people won't
even test it.
And it's the same.
I think it's almost the same asif somebody has something very
(32:41):
sad in their life.
Some people will seekcounseling and help and some
form of psychotherapy, if youlike.
Others will just go no, no, andthen other people will deal
with it in completely the wrongway and do all sorts of bad
habits to try to make themselvesfeel better, which they know
won't work.
I think coaching is quitesimilar.
Often the people who need itmost will have it least.
(33:03):
A couple of people I've readabout which I would maybe
encourage the listeners to lookup definitely Timothy Galdway.
Also, marshall Goldsmith is oneof the most well-known coaches
who's written lots of books.
He devised the 360-degreefeedback concept, which was
radical at the time where asenior person will hear from
everybody they touch and havepretty strong feedback on them
(33:25):
and they, you know, I think somepeople still struggle to give
that because they think they'llwork out that it's them.
However, they write it, howeveranonymous it is, you know and
some people couldn't take that,could they?
no, that exists.
He developed that concept,saying you're a leader, you
don't just give assessments andfeedback to the people, you need
it from everybody.
So he's quite interesting.
Tony Robbins, obviously veryfamous, arguably a coach.
(33:47):
The other person is VishenLakhiani, who created Mindvalley
, which is online programs, butthat's about personal growth and
this is where the lines areblurring personal growth,
coaching.
But I would definitely look upthose people and again, some of
them have PhDs and doctorates.
Some of them have nothing ofwhat they're doing, but it's
certainly an interesting fieldand it's going to grow.
(34:08):
We know that AI is going to getin there and track things and
share things.
I think the very interestingthing will be if there's more
affordable platforms for peopleto access it who could do with
it, and I think that willprobably only be online people
to access it who could do withit, and I think that would
probably only be online.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
There's already some online platforms for counseling
and therapy, yeah, which you canget online all the time.
That's absolutely available ifexecutive coaching was to grow,
because that's the point, isn'tit?
There's a commercial argument,then?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
yeah, that makes you mean a commercial argument that
an individual grows and so acompany does.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah,yeah, yeah.
I think the other thing thathas been talked about for a few
years you need to haveassessment and training to be a
registered counselor.
To be allowed to counselchildren or adults, you've got
to be qualified.
Currently, you can just say I'ma coach with no qualification.
(35:02):
So I'm pretty sure over thenext few years there will be
more standards and ethics andsome practices and training
schools and certifications, ifyou like, will be more
recognized than others.
But that's not there.
What else do you think ourlisteners need to consider?
I suppose the reality ofcoaching and where we are with
(35:22):
it.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Well, I think a good thing is that you and I were
both trained as executivecoaches with the Academy of
Executive Coaches.
So if you've been trained to doa particular task, that's
probably no bad thing.
I'm sure there are executivecoaches still who will just turn
up and do it.
But I think the other pointyou've made about counselors and
what have you I think withexecutive coaching you have to
(35:45):
know where to draw the line,Because of course there are
personal elements.
But I think when it drifts intothe very personal, I think a
decent executive coach will saylook, that is not my expertise.
You need a counselor or youneed this type of therapist or
whatever it may be.
Some won't, but I think mostshould know that there is a line
(36:05):
and if you stick within ityou'll probably be fine, but it
exists.
I suppose the other side of itis that, being trained to do it,
you have to adapt as well,because times change between us
being trained to do this andwhere we are now.
You're right, it's completelygone from quite a lot of
face-to-face to being almostentirely online, and so nobody
(36:27):
seems to bat an eyelid aboutthat.
I wonder if it might drift backfor certain types of clients.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Based on those statistics, when I looked at how
many people are actuallyoffering coaching and I know
that certain people only wantface-to-face counseling I think
you could set yourself up in acity or a town to focus on that
town, because then you'd almostbe more connected to the
prosperity and growth of thebusinesses and organisations
where you lived.
So that almost potentiallybrings another element of
(36:54):
purpose and responsibility to it.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
But then I think it comes back to the original point
of owner-managers and smallerbusinesses.
Are they going to see the valueof that intervention?
You know, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
I suppose they realize they all need an
accountant, but do they allrealize?
Not all realize they needlawyers, not all realize they
need other services?
So maybe coaching's furtherdown the list?
Yeah, and it very hard to sellsomeone on it.
And what we learned early on inbusiness is the double sale is
difficult.
When we were in a marketinggame, we'd sell the concept of
(37:27):
marketing, then try and sellthem why we should do it.
It was exhausting.
Whereas if people are sold onthe concept of coaching, it's
more about seeking out the bestcoach for me.
Yeah, absolutely.
Which is back to the same forsport.
You know they're sold on.
I need a coach for this, butwhich one?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yeah, and there are very successful people who very
much rely on their coaches tokeep them going and being
inspired.
I also have noticed on LinkedInrecently some very successful,
well-known people being burntout.
And you look at that and youthink, well, if you'd had an
executive coach, you might notbe, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yeah, because the other point is you're beholden
to the coach, you share thingsback, you might do work in
between the sessions.
There's a tracking, there's anelement of what you're going to
commit to, and so the coachholds you to that standard.
It isn't just catch you nexttime in a cozy chat.
You're working towardssomething, which is why, right
at the start, we mentioned aboutidentifying goals and things
you really want to achieve orchange, and if none of that's
expressed, then the coachingintervention can't really get
(38:28):
going.
Well, what are we actuallygoing to do before next time?
Well, I don't.
I don't want to change, Ihaven't got any goals.
Okay, great, this is.
This has been insightful, youknow.
Well, we hope that's been umfun, and the reality is that
it's here to stay and only togrow and to adapt.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
There'll be more and more coaching, definitely there
will, and thank you for forgiving us that trip down the
relatively brief history ofexecutive coaching.
As you were closing there, Iwas just thinking about the
situation we presented at thebeginning of the episode, with
me having to deal with atroublesome team member,
maureenen.
That's pretty typical and I'mjust thinking as we go through
(39:05):
the series, if we can pop a pinin Maureen's name, jeremy, as we
come to different subjectsfurther down the line, we might
use her occasionally.
She might become a friend ofthe podcast that becomes this
kind of disembodied person thatwe use as an example, because
quite often executive coachingis about an individual and that
(39:27):
person's relationship to them,and I wonder whether she'll
appear again sometime.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
I do too, right?
Well, thank you all for tuningin.
If you like this, let somebodyknow.
Thanks, bobby, and I lookforward to your next topic.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Thanks, jeremy, see you next time.
Bye for now, thank you.
and how would your team respond to that?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
well, that's a good question actually.
Um, I think most of them wouldbe okay, but I think I'd be
concerned about um maureen andher reaction so you've said most
and you've said maureen, do youmean one?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
one person?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
well, of course it's maureen, isn't it?
I mean, she's mean, she's beena thorn in my side for five
years and I don't know what Ican do about that relationship
really, but everything I ever dois sort of couched in an idea
of what she will like and won'tlike, which I know sounds
bizarre, but that's just alwaysthe way it's been.
(00:45):
She speaks highly of you whathas to change, whether you're
changing something or you have adifferent kind of conversation
with her well, maybe it's timefor that, because we do have to
make some changes and there hasto be a kind of concerted effort
from everyone.
But I think if we didn't haveMaureen on board, then I think
(01:08):
we'd be back to where we startedvery quickly and by that you
mean a better place what do youmean?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
you said you'd be back to where you started if you
didn't have her no, no, I meanif we didn't have her on board
to do the changes we need tomake well yes, oh, I see.
So you're valuing her inanother sense she, you know
she's effective.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
We just, we just don't see eye to eye on just
about anything and I think thatgets in the way of, um, you know
, proper advancement so, by yourtone and the way you said, we'd
be back to where we started,not a good place with maurie.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
But you don't see eye to eye and everything.
If you could choose thesituation that you wish to have,
that is not just good for youbut for the entire organization
really, and especially the wholeteam, which is largely
everybody.
What is the right thing to do?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
well, I think I need to reassess my approach to
maureen, actually, because therehave been times in the past
when she's been great and we'veworked together and things have
gone well, and I think I've just, uh, avoided it and I think I
need to, I you know, rere-approach her actually.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So if you're serious about that, should we spend the
rest of this conversationabsolutely focusing on how you
might go about doing that?
Yep, let's do that.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
All right.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Good day, how are you , Bobby boy?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I'm not too bad, thank you.
Listeners who are familiar withmy voice will be aware that I
sound like a public healthwarning.
I don't know why.
I've got an immense cold andthat's made me slightly nasal,
but apart from that I'm well.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
sir, yeah, fine, I've just had family all staying,
and so that was lovely.
But also we repossess our homeagain, which is nice.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Very nice indeed.
So this episode is all aboutexecutive coaching, and this is
something that listeners willhopefully be aware that we do
quite a lot of.
So we have projects withorganizations where sometimes
we'll have a whole layer ofsenior managers that we will do
(03:54):
executive coaching with, andit's a subject that is quite
interesting.
You and I have been trained init, and we have a number of
coaches now on the books,including Anne and Jenny, and so
we thought it was time to do anepisode about this really
interesting subject.
And you've gone away and you'vebeen looking into it in some
depth, haven't you?
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, I have, and I'd love you to be the listener in
some ways, of trying to thinkabout it.
So if I say to you what iscoaching, and we do the Edward
de Bono technique called eyes ofa child, an 11 year old says
Uncle, trying to think about it.
So if I say to you what iscoaching, and we do the Edward
de Bono technique called Eyes ofa Child, an 11-year-old says
Uncle Bobby.
I heard this bloke talkingabout doing coaching at work.
What's coaching?
What would you say it is.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, my first response would be you're too
young to have to worry aboutthat.
No, I'm joking, that's good.
I would say.
Coaching is helping individualsto reach important decisions
about their work and their livesthrough inspiring conversation.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Jolly nice.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Not bad.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, I think we'll add to that only a couple of
bits is that it's certainly nottraining.
No, you're not telling theperson what to do.
As the coach, there's the andthe coachee.
It's client-centered, goldorientated, and the two of them
work together to help achievesome kind of goal or outcome.
And we'll look at how it'schanged over the years and I
(05:18):
think at the start, as bob said,we're looking more executive
coaching.
But there is also life coaching, career coaching, performance
coaching.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
There's actually little splinter fields coming
out of what was just oncecoaching, sure, and I suppose
the other thing is that you know, coaching and executive
coaching are particular businessinterventions, yes, or
individuals and sometimes groups.
But I think the other side ofit is, as individuals and as we
(05:47):
become more aware of our ownbrains and how they work, then
this type of conversationactually, I think, becomes a bit
more mainstream.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well, yeah, so if you go back to the start of when
this really kicks in and we havea couple of world wars, or
especially the Second World Warto blame for quite a lot of
stuff not, or especially thesecond world war to blame for
quite a lot of stuff not takingplace, but in the sort of late
40s and 50s, psychologists arethinking how do we increase
output and productivity, whetherthat's from a factory or a
(06:18):
service business or even anorganization, you know,
rebuilding a country post-war,how we've got lots of stuff to
do so?
Originally it was more aboutincreasing output and applying
psychological principles to that.
That's sort of the start ofcoaching if we go post-war.
But the argument is coachinghas been around forever.
It's self-directed learning,somebody asking an open question
(06:41):
and not telling the person whatto do.
So it's not new at at all.
It's been around for thousandsof years but no one called it
coaching.
But do you think?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
that's true.
Do you think that you know ifwe go back?
Do you, even if you go back 200years and think about certain
leaders?
Do you think they were coachesin the truth?
No, no, well, I'm not sayingthey were coaches in those
moments.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I'm just saying they were coaches in those moments.
I'm just saying a leader couldhave coached anybody at any time
.
Some leaders just told peoplewhat to do and of course, the
wars.
Always the argument has been inan army or in a naval context
or whatever, you have to havehierarchical structures and tell
people what to do and theyfollow orders but whether you go
back to the Socratic method orwhoever you want, you know
(07:27):
ancient Greeks holding classesand asking their students what
they think.
Coaching as a conversation tohelp someone come to the answer
themselves without being givenadvice isn't a new concept.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So actually that's an interesting.
You mentioned Socratic,socrates, aristotle, that sort
of thing.
Yeah, so we know that theywould wander around yeah
challenging perceptions oncertain viewpoints, and so
that's interesting.
So if you take that kind ofsituation where you're saying
this is how the world is, or isit, how else could it be?
(08:02):
And you're getting people tostart using their minds in an
inquiring way as opposed to in apassive way, that isn't that
what we're trying to latch ontoin the code well, if you then do
the diversion betweenphilosophy and psychology.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So if philosophy is more like that, why are we here?
What are we doing here?
What's the purpose?
What's god?
What's this in a organizationalwork context?
They would argue that's good,but we don't have time to do
that now because we've got toget 20 widgets out before four
o'clock.
So, yeah, we dip more intopsychology of how are we feeling
?
Why is he acting like that?
(08:39):
What's she thinking?
Is the respect?
Do they have a growth mindset,a fixed mindset?
Again, new terms, but ancient.
So then I think what starts tohappen in the 60s and 70s is
what you're just getting tothere and what you're surmising
about leaders is leadershipdevelopment starts to become
(08:59):
popular as a concept ofbehavioral change.
We can improve an organizationif we can improve a leader as a
concept of behavioral change.
We can improve an organizationif we can improve a leader.
And so if we get the leader tohave better habits the idea
being that they'll be modelingcertain behavior, but they may
have no awareness of how theycome across and no one likes
working for them and people areupset.
They're not very motivating.
They also go around tellingeveryone what to do and this
(09:21):
isn't working so much nowbecause we're not at war.
We're now actually growing,income's growing, we're
producing new inventions, cars.
Surely there's other ways ofrunning organizations.
You can be a leader in adifferent way.
So let's focus on the leadersand let's put some coaching in
there, because the leader mightchange their habits, which are
outdated already.
You know the old idea that evenin my father's time and your
(09:43):
father's time they would commenton certain people at work being
like a sergeant major.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
And so that's dying off.
I mean, we say it's dying off,you and I could go into a
business today that hasn'tevolved at all and is still got.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
You know somebody who's not democratic in any way
running it, and just this is myway, or the highway that of
course it still exists well, I'mjust thinking that you and I
started our working lives at theend of the 80s, beginning of
the 90s okay, so we would havehad bosses who would have
developed through the 70s and80s.
Okay, and I was just thinkingabout one of my bosses who I
(10:24):
used to work for many years ago.
I've mentioned him on previouspodcasts, so he's a friend of
the podcast in some ways.
When I think of that gentlemanand the idea of approaching him
and saying, look, I think youcould do with some executive
coaching.
That would really help you, Ithink I'm pretty certain what
the response would.
Be sure, so do you think thatit is something that, whilst
(10:47):
it's been around for decades,has only recently been seen as a
useful tool in developingbusiness people in recent years?
Speaker 1 (10:59):
I think it's always been seen.
Just the amount of people moreopen to it increases each year
is the short answer okay, okayso if we now cut to that period
of time, the 80s yeah, we're allinto goal setting and
performance enhancementsomeone's doing something.
How can we enhance thatperformance?
And of course this is wherecoaching and other contests like
(11:20):
sport massively increases.
So whether it's athletics we'vejust had the Paris Olympics
whether it's certain athleteshaving coaches who are, how does
that feel, how is that working?
When you came down the backstraight, what was it feeling
like in your legs?
Do you think you could go a bitfaster rather than run like
this, run like this, run likethat?
So performance enhancement andthe idea of having a coach in
(11:44):
your sporting discipline becomeseven more popular.
And so then you get coaches ina number of fields and it's goal
setting and enhancement.
We're going away from that kindof desire for output.
Can we get more loaves of breadout?
Because that isn't going tonecessarily help us.
And then in the 1990s you havethe first development of the ICF
, the International CoachingFederation, which set standards
(12:05):
and ethics.
So there's no standards andethics set by a governing body
till 1995.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And who was that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Well, one of the people, one of the founders, is
Thomas J Leonard, who created abusiness called Coach U, which
is still running.
He is often nicknamed as thefather of modern coaching
because he helped set standardsthat then formed part of the icf
.
Okay, but if you want to knowabout people, there's him.
There's also a very famous bookcalled the inner game of tennis
(12:36):
by timothy galway, who put itout there in a book that it
isn't your ability to servevolley underarm backhand, it's
how, what's going on in yourbrain.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
So, and he wrote other books like the inner game
of golf, and then he also wrotethe inner game of business,
meaning that it's how wementally feel about it, not our
skill in in a task I suppose thepopularity of sport yeah means
that that is a easy segue fromlook how well these people are
(13:07):
doing being coached to how do weutilize this in business, and
that's why you see so manysports people doing speeches at
absolutely company conferencesand that sort of thing.
However, I'm not sure thatthose messages have necessarily
translated completely from onediscipline to another?
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Not at all.
But also we should make thepoint that some sports coaches
don't coach, they mentor andtrain and they tell their
players exactly what to do.
There are other coaches andwhen I went to Wimbledon this
year what I loved watching wasthe coaches in the box and there
were some who were justmotivating with body language,
going, yes, come on, brilliant.
And there were others who werepointing, going hit his backhand
(13:49):
, hit his backhand, hit hisbackhand, lob him, lob him, lob
him, lob him, he's crap at thenet.
They were telling their playerswhat.
There was a German guy calledHanfman and his coach I looked
him up Portuguese guy.
He just smiled, grinned,nothing else.
He could easily have saidchange game and that guy took a
set off Yannick Sinner.
So who knows?
So quite interesting thatdifferent coaches.
I'm sure there are sportscoaches who are booked and paid
(14:14):
big money to actually allow theowners of a football team to try
to progress, and we could namesome now, but it might be
slanderous.
There are football coaches, ifwe take football, who are known
to come in and tell everybodywhat to do in order to win a
medal, but no one likes workingunder them.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
No, I mean, one of the ones that people did like
working under was the late greatBobby Robson who famously was
very close to all of his playersand very supportive and a
father figure in some ways.
He didn't know any other way todo it.
You know, I can't think ofanybody in business who I've
(14:53):
worked with who I would put intothat category, but maybe that's
because they haven't beencoached.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
so tell us more about you know the current situation
well, if you sort of come uptoday more and more as you
already hinted at yourselfearlier neuroscience we learn
more about the brain with almostevery passing week.
We've sectioned the brain outbeautifully.
Now we know about chemicalsbeing released and not released,
and you know and also I thinkpeople's understanding of mental
(15:21):
health is increased that theyknow certain people struggle to
feel emotions because they don'tproduce the chemicals.
But we're now in an era ofpositive psychology.
That's kind of where we areMore and more evidence that if
we practice certain behaviourswe're more likely to feel
happier, likely to feel moreengaged, involved, so on and so
(15:41):
on.
We're also in an era wherewe're gathering evidence.
We're still in a veryevidence-based, proof-based era
where people want proof beforethey invest.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So it's weird.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
There's all those wonderful developments in
science, but also prove it,prove it.
Prove it.
And that's also because we'vehad a whole shift of
face-to-face coaching.
Or come to my office at thebottom of my garden or we'll do
it in my front room of my house,or I rent a little place in a
university building.
Face-to-face coaching is nowtotally gone.
(16:13):
It exists with some people, butmost people, wherever they are
in the world, they coach throughZoom, teams and so on.
So there's been a massive shiftin the pandemic to use online
tools, online coaching, whichshould drive the cost down,
because one of the other thingswe're talking about leaders is
most of the people who getcoaching earn higher salaries
and can afford it.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
But then they wouldn't necessarily pay for it,
would they?
Their companies would probablybe paying for it.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Their companies would .
But if they, yes, but I supposethe smaller the company gets,
the closer they see it to beingtheir money potentially.
But yes, that's true.
And I suppose the other verycurrent thing and then I'll give
you some numbers which arequite well, play a guessing game
with you, you'll enjoy that.
The other trends, of course,are diversity.
So who else is being neglected,not being given coaching, more
(16:57):
equity and inclusion?
Can we get more people to becoached?
The other thing that iscompletely a fact of now is this
whole personal well-being andwork-life balance.
No one has to sort of separatethose out, because for years we
go let's talk about yourwork-life balance and now let's
get back to work.
Well, hang on, it's allconnected.
So I think there's anunderstanding that work-life
(17:19):
balance is part of it.
Should we play a game of somenumbers?
Just on the UK, go for it.
How many registered businessesdo you think are in the UK?
So they're fully registered,they're not illegal, they're up
for paying tax if they earn it.
How many registered businessesare in the UK?
So our little island, if you'relistening from abroad, or
another country?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
It's got to be quite high.
It's got to be quite high.
I think it's something like200,000.
Oh, much higher Think of allthe one-man bands and one-woman
bands Higher, higher, higher.
Okay, 4 million 5.5 million.
Wow, there's 5.5 millionbusinesses in the.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
UK Of a population of 70 million.
Exactly Huge amounts of soletraders.
Also people who are doing alittle side hustle, but they're
registered because they mightneed to pay a bit of tax and
also they might be buying goods.
So now you've got that in yourhead and you're listening to us
and you know we're a littleisland.
Here we are 5.5 millionregistered businesses.
(18:17):
So how many coaches are known?
And this is, this is some formof estimates based on people
who've taken courses and variouspeople researching who offers
coaching, but there's anestimate of how many coaches
there are in the uk who areeither part-time or full-time
and actually offering coachingservices well, if there's 5
(18:38):
million businesses, there'sprobably something like 100,000
coaches.
No way less.
20,000 coaches.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Okay, so this is a very good opportunity, exactly
right.
That's big Wow.
Okay, that's really that'samazing.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
It is, isn't it?
So I was playing with that ideathat even in a very small
geographical context which iswhat happens, by the way, in
counselling People go forcounselling in a geographical
area.
Who's the best counsellor inBucks for my son, daughter, me,
my wife, whatever?
But coaching is kind ofbypassing that now and it's
(19:19):
global.
I think one of theopportunities for coaches is to
set themselves up geographically.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I think everyone works from home these days, so
yes, why wouldn't you?
But actually it doesn't mattergeographically, it's all over,
zoom.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
No, it doesn't.
It is but counselling's not.
Some counselling is online buta lot of people don't want it
online.
They want it face to face.
I know absolutely, but that'sthe same number, just so you
know, in the research,registered counsellors and we
can talk about the differencebetween that, if you like.
Registered counsellors is thesame number of registered
coaches.
So we have a mental healthcrisis and we have a coaching
(19:52):
crisis.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
We do.
I was thinking, as you weretalking about an episode we did
a little while ago, around allthe different things that senior
people can do to developthemselves, of which executive
coaching was one of them, andyou've mentioned some of the
things that you might touch upon, like work-life balance, and
(20:14):
our example at the beginning ofthis episode was an individual
that somebody's having to workwith and how they manage that
relationship.
What kind of outcomes have youseen from executive coaching?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I would say from my work you mean just me team and
collaboration improvement numberone.
So you've got somebody runninga team, whatever level of leader
they are, and the team isdysfunctional, in their words,
often, and they're often thedysfunctional person, ironically
.
But um, happier teams, I think,is the outcome because the team
(20:46):
are inconsistent.
They're all playing slightlydifferent games, using different
methods, so the team isn'tcohesive.
So one person's a maverickdoing it their way.
Another one's got a tried andtested.
Six of them are using thesystem that's been invested all
over the shop a great leader.
So one person's a maverickdoing it their way.
Another one's got a tried andtested.
Six of them are using thesystem that's been invested all
over the shop.
A great leader can actually tryto bind the team to all play the
(21:07):
same game, so it's a fair field.
And then there's consistency,collaboration and so on.
That's my number one.
I think the other one is forsome people is complete clarity
of what they want to do.
They're doing something thatdoesn't inspire them and then
they actually go.
Do you know?
I want to do this.
I want to leave, or I want tomove that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
So that's much more personal, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, Because I've got to a depth.
Well, we should make the pointthat some of my coachees don't
open up to me and so after a fewsessions I'm saying you know,
I'm not really getting far,we're not really working on
anything major.
What is it?
And it's not for everyone.
Some people don't like coachingat all, don't want to be asked,
don't like to think in this way.
It's an intervention that won'twork for everybody at all.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Well, I suppose, as we said earlier, you are helping
the person to come to ideas anddecisions about ways that they
can change and make changes, andwe know that many people
struggle with that fundamentalpoint of how do I change?
And, having had coaching myself, there are times when you have
(22:11):
a session and go wow, that's agreat idea, I'm going to
immediately apply that,immediately do something about
it.
It can take a few sessions toget to that point.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I think the other thing is, if you think of our
coaching that we're doing andour coaches are doing, we're
doing it for relatively largeorganizations, sometimes massive
organizations.
So some of the people are veryhappy to be paid a salary to do
their work, but they don'treally want to get too
interested in changing it, asyou say, changing it.
Their purpose isn't defined bytheir work.
They have other interestsoutside.
(22:48):
But then of course, some peopleare on a career ladder and go
yes, I can make this team betterand actually if I do that, I
can hop, skip and jump overthere and earn another 25 grand
and be headhunted.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yes, we get people are are very ambitious or they
just ambitious to do a good jobI think sometimes in that
situation you get people whounderstand conceptually what
needs to happen but have nofaith whatsoever in their
people's abilities to interpretthat into a successful action,
(23:18):
and and so they almost see whatthey do, what their people do
and the link between them, whichcould be success or not, as
something distant, as somethingthat's never going to come to
fruition, because of theircomplete lack of faith in the
people they work with.
It's a tough one.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Well, complete lack of faith, either in the people
who are supporting them asleaders to help, or complete
lack of faith either in thepeople who are supporting them
as leaders to help, or completelack of faith in all the people
doing the job.
Which begs the question is whywe recruited them and were you
involved?
What's going on there?
So the thing about coaching isit can expose huge weaknesses in
people who've been with thepeter principle, you know,
(23:58):
promoted to a level beyond theirlevel of competence often, but
it also can expose where theother links are breaking down,
because they'll often share withyou.
My problem isn't this, it'sthis or it's this.
These two people aren't alignedwith me and you can often find
out, you know, where the thing'sbreaking down.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Okay, yep, okay, yep you're listening to the reality
of business brought to you byreality training.
Selling certainty.
We're a leading sales trainingand coaching company based in
the uk.
For information on how we helpour clients improve their
businesses, check out ourwebsite realitytrainingcom.
(24:38):
Check out our websiterealitytrainingcom.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
So here's a question.
So we've talked a lot about howcoaching helps teams, people,
individuals, performancestrategies.
What would you say to anexecutive who says to you I
don't need any executivecoaching, I'm very successful
(25:05):
and I don't need it and I'm justdoing so well.
How would you respond to that?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
I'd say they're probably wrong in that they
don't want it, but they do needit.
And again, you try gettingsomeone to take a vaccine who
doesn't believe in a vaccine.
You try telling somebody tobelieve in God when they don't.
These are huge beliefs, so thatsome people will not be open to
any intervention of learning orchanging at all at all.
No, of course.
So when someone says I'm fine,I don't want it, the timing
(25:38):
could be wrong.
And again, the other thingwhich is interesting about
coaching and counselling andI've had this with some of my
clients is they open up, andthen they really open up, and
then there's a big load of otherwork that needs doing, because
actually the biggest problemisn't anything to do with work,
it's to do with their childhoodor whatever else.
And so some people don't wantto scratch the veneer because
they might break down completelyand they're just managing some
(26:00):
level of control.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
But then doesn't that sort of make it sound quite
interesting that when things aregoing well, you just think I
don't need it, okay, and I'lljust sit here and ride it out,
and when things get tough, youneed training or coaching or
whatever it will be that willimprove that coaching or
(26:22):
whatever it will be that willimprove that.
However, I think it's probablytrue that very successful people
continually need to be pushed,yeah, yeah, and I think quite
often we say to people incoaching how are you happy about
having some challenge in thesesessions?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
what level are you up to?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
yeah, and they all go , oh, you know, go for your life
.
And then you start challengingthem and they go.
Well, hey, hang, hey, hang onsunshine.
Because actually you're forcingtheir brains to go beyond the
comfortable positive situationthey're in.
There's no harm in that, butthey I think possibly many a lot
of the time cannot see wherethe value is in that, even
(26:57):
though it growth it's, you know,it's wider yeah, because
potentially they've always beenmeasured on something else which
might be output.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
It might be revenue, profit, growth, numbers, volume,
the quantifiableness.
So this is the other thingabout coaching is that more and
more tools and tracking is taken.
So when people ask about thefuture of it, more analytics and
tracking.
So somebody had coaching twoyears ago, three years ago,
(27:27):
where are they now?
Let's track back that thatcoaching's worked.
It's not being measured overthat period of time at all, it's
short term.
How have they changed in thethree months of coaching?
Well, they've changed a bit,but, let's face it, it takes
quite a long time to change.
The three months of coaching.
Well, they've changed a bit,but let's face it, it takes
quite a long time to change.
So measuring will change longerterm growth.
You know, I always use theanalogy that when you go to
school and you're 13 and you say, or you're 11 and you say, I
(27:51):
want to do the subjects I like ahistory, french and English you
work on them for years beforeyou're tested, you work on them
again for another two years.
If you're staying on doingA-levels for another two years
and yet, bizarrely, businessseems to think can we just do
this very quickly and get aresult?
Probably not.
You've probably got to work onit.
(28:11):
You bring up the point aboutlonger term.
The other thing about, Isuppose, human beings is we're
in the habit of buying curesrather than preventatives.
We always have been.
That's how medicine's marketed.
And if you look at our state ofmental health now, it's only
when a crisis and you'll knowthis from your work in
Samaritans, it's only a crisispoint that an intervention takes
(28:35):
place.
So wouldn't it be wonderful ifwe had far more preventative
work taking place?
And if you take that incoaching and someone had
coaching when things were goingwell, as you say, they'd be
flipping well prepared for whenthey didn't, which might only be
six weeks later.
Yeah, but that isn't how peoplethink, because who owns the
company or the board?
(28:56):
If they're looking at thebottom line of profits money,
income fluctuations they don'treally want to have to pay for
this.
We hope everyone's brilliant.
Why have we got to pay for it?
So we have to do it.
If this person's ill ininverted commas.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Let's offer them coaching, so should companies
offer it to all executives allthe time.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Well, very interesting.
So coaching well, not justexecutives.
Interesting so coaching, well,not just executives.
So, if you like, coaching forunderrepresented groups, the
growing demand for coaching thatjust supports people advancing
their careers or advancing avoice that doesn't get heard, I
think that's going to change.
At the moment, it seems to besomething that's priced at a
(29:39):
certain point.
We can talk about prices.
We can do another little quizin a minute.
I'll ask you what you thinkabout the different prices of
what people are charging.
You'll enjoy that.
Okay, we'll talk money in aminute, because people are
wondering what this costs.
But at the moment, coaching isfor the rich or the well-off,
and as is private mental healthsupport.
You know there's a number ofmental well-being supports that
(30:04):
are only quite costly in theirthing.
So wouldn't it be great if wecould, either through AI or tech
, we could bring down the costof coaching and more people
could have it?
I think there's a.
I had an interview with thisguy in India who's developed an
online coaching system and itasks you questions and you start
to answer them and, bizarrely,you just feel better, even
(30:25):
though it's a computer.
Wow, because it just coachesyou.
You actually say I'm notfeeling too good.
Well, what's led to that?
You start to speak and asyou're speaking and hearing, you
start to come up with otherthings to do.
Should we talk money?
Yeah, let's hear it.
Well, it's going to have yousome guessing, actually.
(30:45):
So let's start with the lowest,the lowest amount of money that
has been found by various siteswhere people have submitted
what they charge.
There is a low bar for coachingon an hourly rate.
What do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Is it executive coaching or any coaching?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yes, no, no executive coaching.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Well, it's got to be £50 an hour, £100 an hour, £100,
£100, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
So £100 an hour is kind of meant to be sort of the
entry-level rate for executivecoaching.
Let's now go to the veryhighest amount that some people
command per hour, and of courseit adds up over a period of time
.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's got to be £1,000 .
Speaker 1 (31:26):
It is exactly right spot on.
Okay, yeah.
So the mean rates there's quitea lot between 300 and 600.
That's your kind of highestaccess point and that's again
because these are executives whoare on higher salaries.
It's deemed valuable.
But imagine if the tracking andthe measuring took place over
years and they paid a coach fourgrand, five grand, for a period
(31:50):
of time they did companyinnovations.
The company turned over anothermillion, they took on 16.
Then it'd be, oh god, it's likepaying a fiver if they tracked
it.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
It comes back to our original point, though.
If you're not doing executivecoaching with your senior people
, what are you doing with them?
Because they don't need atraining course.
So if you did do a trainingcourse, you'd be spending at
least that.
So actually it's spread outover a longer period it's
arguably a better investment.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
That is the interesting point.
What are you doing?
And some people don't wantanything, as we know, don't want
to develop.
But the attraction of coachingis it's all about you and you'll
be asked the questions.
Come to your own ideas.
But some people don't even wantthat and also some people won't
even test it.
And it's the same.
I think it's almost the same asif somebody has something very
(32:41):
sad in their life.
Some people will seekcounseling and help and some
form of psychotherapy, if youlike.
Others will just go no, no, andthen other people will deal
with it in completely the wrongway and do all sorts of bad
habits to try to make themselvesfeel better, which they know
won't work.
I think coaching is quitesimilar.
Often the people who need itmost will have it least.
(33:03):
A couple of people I've readabout which I would maybe
encourage the listeners to lookup definitely Timothy Galdway.
Also, marshall Goldsmith is oneof the most well-known coaches
who's written lots of books.
He devised the 360-degreefeedback concept, which was
radical at the time where asenior person will hear from
everybody they touch and havepretty strong feedback on them
(33:25):
and they, you know, I think somepeople still struggle to give
that because they think they'llwork out that it's them.
However, they write it, howeveranonymous it is, you know and
some people couldn't take that,could they?
no, that exists.
He developed that concept,saying you're a leader, you
don't just give assessments andfeedback to the people, you need
it from everybody.
So he's quite interesting.
Tony Robbins, obviously veryfamous, arguably a coach.
(33:47):
The other person is VishenLakhiani, who created Mindvalley
, which is online programs, butthat's about personal growth and
this is where the lines areblurring personal growth,
coaching.
But I would definitely look upthose people and again, some of
them have PhDs and doctorates.
Some of them have nothing ofwhat they're doing, but it's
certainly an interesting fieldand it's going to grow.
(34:08):
We know that AI is going to getin there and track things and
share things.
I think the very interestingthing will be if there's more
affordable platforms for peopleto access it who could do with
it, and I think that willprobably only be online people
to access it who could do withit, and I think that would
probably only be online.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
There's already some online platforms for counseling
and therapy, yeah, which you canget online all the time.
That's absolutely available ifexecutive coaching was to grow,
because that's the point, isn'tit?
There's a commercial argument,then?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
yeah, that makes you mean a commercial argument that
an individual grows and so acompany does.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah,yeah, yeah.
I think the other thing thathas been talked about for a few
years you need to haveassessment and training to be a
registered counselor.
To be allowed to counselchildren or adults, you've got
to be qualified.
Currently, you can just say I'ma coach with no qualification.
(35:02):
So I'm pretty sure over thenext few years there will be
more standards and ethics andsome practices and training
schools and certifications, ifyou like, will be more
recognized than others.
But that's not there.
What else do you think ourlisteners need to consider?
I suppose the reality ofcoaching and where we are with
(35:22):
it.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Well, I think a good thing is that you and I were
both trained as executivecoaches with the Academy of
Executive Coaches.
So if you've been trained to doa particular task, that's
probably no bad thing.
I'm sure there are executivecoaches still who will just turn
up and do it.
But I think the other pointyou've made about counselors and
what have you I think withexecutive coaching you have to
(35:45):
know where to draw the line,Because of course there are
personal elements.
But I think when it drifts intothe very personal, I think a
decent executive coach will saylook, that is not my expertise.
You need a counselor or youneed this type of therapist or
whatever it may be.
Some won't, but I think mostshould know that there is a line
(36:05):
and if you stick within ityou'll probably be fine, but it
exists.
I suppose the other side of itis that, being trained to do it,
you have to adapt as well,because times change between us
being trained to do this andwhere we are now.
You're right, it's completelygone from quite a lot of
face-to-face to being almostentirely online, and so nobody
(36:27):
seems to bat an eyelid aboutthat.
I wonder if it might drift backfor certain types of clients.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Based on those statistics, when I looked at how
many people are actuallyoffering coaching and I know
that certain people only wantface-to-face counseling I think
you could set yourself up in acity or a town to focus on that
town, because then you'd almostbe more connected to the
prosperity and growth of thebusinesses and organisations
where you lived.
So that almost potentiallybrings another element of
(36:54):
purpose and responsibility to it.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
But then I think it comes back to the original point
of owner-managers and smallerbusinesses.
Are they going to see the valueof that intervention?
You know, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
I suppose they realize they all need an
accountant, but do they allrealize?
Not all realize they needlawyers, not all realize they
need other services?
So maybe coaching's furtherdown the list?
Yeah, and it very hard to sellsomeone on it.
And what we learned early on inbusiness is the double sale is
difficult.
When we were in a marketinggame, we'd sell the concept of
(37:27):
marketing, then try and sellthem why we should do it.
It was exhausting.
Whereas if people are sold onthe concept of coaching, it's
more about seeking out the bestcoach for me.
Yeah, absolutely.
Which is back to the same forsport.
You know they're sold on.
I need a coach for this, butwhich one?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yeah, and there are very successful people who very
much rely on their coaches tokeep them going and being
inspired.
I also have noticed on LinkedInrecently some very successful,
well-known people being burntout.
And you look at that and youthink, well, if you'd had an
executive coach, you might notbe, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yeah, because the other point is you're beholden
to the coach, you share thingsback, you might do work in
between the sessions.
There's a tracking, there's anelement of what you're going to
commit to, and so the coachholds you to that standard.
It isn't just catch you nexttime in a cozy chat.
You're working towardssomething, which is why, right
at the start, we mentioned aboutidentifying goals and things
you really want to achieve orchange, and if none of that's
expressed, then the coachingintervention can't really get
(38:28):
going.
Well, what are we actuallygoing to do before next time?
Well, I don't.
I don't want to change, Ihaven't got any goals.
Okay, great, this is.
This has been insightful, youknow.
Well, we hope that's been umfun, and the reality is that
it's here to stay and only togrow and to adapt.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
There'll be more and more coaching, definitely there
will, and thank you for forgiving us that trip down the
relatively brief history ofexecutive coaching.
As you were closing there, Iwas just thinking about the
situation we presented at thebeginning of the episode, with
me having to deal with atroublesome team member,
maureenen.
That's pretty typical and I'mjust thinking as we go through
(39:05):
the series, if we can pop a pinin Maureen's name, jeremy, as we
come to different subjectsfurther down the line, we might
use her occasionally.
She might become a friend ofthe podcast that becomes this
kind of disembodied person thatwe use as an example, because
quite often executive coachingis about an individual and that
(39:27):
person's relationship to them,and I wonder whether she'll
appear again sometime.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
I do too, right?
Well, thank you all for tuningin.
If you like this, let somebodyknow.
Thanks, bobby, and I lookforward to your next topic.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Thanks, jeremy, see you next time.
Bye for now, thank you.
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