November 15, 2024 • 49 mins
What truly makes employees want to stay, grow, and give their best?
In this insightful episode, Bob and Jeremy discuss the complex world of employee motivation and retention, blending historical perspective with actionable strategies to help you rethink workplace satisfaction.
Starting with Henry Ford’s revolutionary workweek reforms, their discussion moves through decades of evolving workplace culture, reaching today’s pressing need for flexibility and autonomy. Bob and Jeremy explore Gallup’s latest findings on why employees choose to leave – from salary concerns to management styles – and share practical ways to address these challenges, transforming them into opportunities for engagement and retention.
With insights from renowned models like Herzberg’s two-factor theory and Hackman & Oldham’s Job Characteristic Model, the conversation highlights how purpose, personal growth, and a supportive culture contribute to sustained motivation. Relatable sales scenarios illustrate why a balance of intrinsic motivators (like achievement) and extrinsic rewards (like bonuses) is crucial for long-term commitment.
You’ll also uncover the impact of flexibility, feedback, and authentic leadership in building connections with today’s diverse workforce, especially for Gen Z and millennials who prioritise value alignment. Packed with real-world examples and effective tips, this episode equips you to create a workplace where employees feel appreciated, motivated, and ready to excel.
Tune in to discover how you can foster a culture that not only retains talent but inspires people to give their best every day.
For more info, free resources, useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
Reality Training - Selling Certainty
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
well, thanks for coming in, bob.
It's lovely I get a.
I suppose the only time I getto have a one-to-one with
absolutely everybody.
Um, well, as you know, everyyear I like to start with the
same question.
Um, and I've looked at yourwell file, digital file these
days, but 17 years years yeahthank you.
(00:23):
Thank you first of all.
Thank you, it's all right.
So, as you know or may not know, but we'll say we, we run
various things, we try to dovarious things to motivate and
retain you, and it's just aboutyou, bob.
So if you think of all thedifferent things that have
happened over the last year,what do you think is the number
(00:45):
one thing that keeps youmotivated and staying with
gordon and sons?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
um, I suppose it's two things really.
Um, my commute now is mucheasier, so that's quite handy,
and I suppose maybe I shouldn'tsay this.
I suppose the money is okay.
So those two things, yeah, theytick the boxes really.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
But hang on.
What about the without menaming it?
Do you remember the thing welaunched in February?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Oh, yeah, yeah, that was quite good, yeah, I mean.
Yeah, I mean all that stuff isall very well, but really you
know, the fact that I get paidreasonably well and it's it's an
easy commute makes it all youknow fairly okay.
Right.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Well, well, well, thanks.
So welcome to another episodeof the Reality of Business.
(02:11):
How are you, Bobby boy?
I'm very well indeed.
Sir, how are you?
Yeah, I'm good.
This has been an interestingtopic and I sort of realised
that the headline how tomotivate and retain employees,
employees could lead you down athousand avenues, but I've tried
to sort of whenever I foundsomething to say hang on, is
that to do with motivating andretaining?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
so it's quite hard as you'll see, it is hard I think
about as a question how tomotivate and retain employees.
It's almost the pivotalquestion for any manager.
Actually, how do you motivateyour people and make sure they
stay with you?
And if you can get those twothings right, you've probably
(02:54):
got a reasonable business.
But I'm sure you're about toconvey to us it's not perhaps as
easy as people might think.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Well, let's start with a little guessing game.
So, gallup, quite a wellthought of polling research
organization.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Oh, very well thought of, I would say.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I'd go further, dr Gallup, of course.
So they ran a survey comingtowards the end of 2020.
Obviously a few things going onin the world or beginning to go
on in the world 2020.
Obviously, a few things goingon in the world or beginning to
go on in the world.
Yeah, and it was calledemployee burnout causes and
cures and it was a very largesample.
(03:31):
Okay, what percentage ofemployees sometimes experience
burnout on the job and we couldargue by burnout they have lost
some of their mojo, they're notmotivated and they're almost at
breaking point.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
What percentage of employees sometimes experience
burnout or have experienced it,is it sometimes, or how?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
no, no, it's.
They've definitely had it oncetwice okay, okay it's not a
one-off.
It's something that they mighthave for a period of time and it
goes away again.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I mean, I cannot imagine the percentage, but I
would put it quite high.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, it is, it's 76% Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Okay, so three quarters of employees are
sometimes experienced burnout.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Let's come to the second question.
They asked what percentage ofthose same people are feeling it
very regularly.
We must be over 50.
No, it's 28, so okay, okay,coming up to a third of people
are going to work, and regularlygoing into a burnout state.
(04:39):
okay, so we'll also start on aretention, little sort of thing.
Immediately, just off the topof your head, there are sort of
six reasons why an employeeleaves.
What do you reckon they mightbe?
You can call out any of them.
So it's going to be money, yepgood.
Inadequate salary or hourlyrate because of the HR demons,
(05:03):
the manager not getting on withthe manager eight because of the
hr demons.
Yeah, the manager not gettingon with the manager.
Yes, yes, we'll put that intothe unhappy with management per
se.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely so you've got four to
go.
Keep it going then.
Um, it's going to be god, Imean, it's real go back to the
first stat I gave you.
Oh, okay, so they're.
They're feeling burnt out andwant to change.
Overworked, yeah, overworked.
Overworked, unsupported Changeas good as arrest.
So they go for that Very good,yep.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
There's three more.
Lack of development.
Perfect, well done.
You're doing great, really good.
Little to no room, yep, yep.
Other well companies closewhether they are approached or
not.
There are more compelling jobopportunities, so I must leave,
okay, okay.
So there's one more, which is,if you like, a lot of what
(05:53):
coaching tries to address well,some degree of self-motivation
in some form.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
50, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Work-life balance oh okay, fine in our little sketch,
you and, uh, your imaginarypartner, barbara, or whoever had
moved nearer to you at gordonand son.
Yeah, you, you quite like thefact your commute was reduced
and you thought you paid enough.
You had two working for you,but arguably you weren't that
fussed about the others well,some of those things all feed in
(06:23):
anyway.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I mean, if your work-life balance isn't right,
you're going to be burnt out anddemotivated, yeah, and if your
money isn't great, that's goingto make.
I mean, all of these things aregoing to compound, yeah, I
think it'd be very rare for youto go.
The only reason I'm leaving isbecause of this one thing yeah,
it's going to be a combinationof things which will get you
going in the right direction soI suppose the thing to talk
(06:43):
about straight away is the twothings are very closely linked.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
So if you're motivated at work, it's going to
possibly keep you there.
So motivation and retention arelinked.
However, what my research showsup is sometimes companies don't
necessarily do anything.
So what's been interesting?
I've talked to someone workingin a very well-known consultancy
.
I've talked to someone who'sdone very interesting work in
(07:09):
the NHS.
I've talked to Danny, friend ofthe podcast, who's a sales
director at Curious Brewery andmaking lovely beer, and I've
talked to a friend with a veryfast-growing accountancy
business.
So I've sort of had somein-depth personal stuff coming
back.
What's interesting is sometimesthese people don't necessarily
(07:30):
think the company's doing it, sothe company may not actually be
doing anything.
So I thought I'd kick off andtry to get you to remember a
famous Dostoevsky quote that wecan apply to businesses.
So what did he say about happyand unhappy families?
I really, I mean whilst I haveread you, you know this quote
(07:52):
you we and I've we've talkedabout it before so maybe I have,
but I've read, I haven't got itin front of me, but I'm going
to paraphrase it, which issomething like all happy
families are alike.
All unhappy families are unhappyin their own very unique way
okay, fair enough, that's verytrue, yeah yeah, and what I've
(08:12):
found is that in my generalresearch this is sort of the
holistic overarching thing isthe companies that have happy
people.
They all say similar things ofwhy they're happy, and so what
kind of things before we getinto some juicy, sort of deeper
research what kind of things doyou think might be off the bat,
(08:34):
motivating and the reasons whyyou stay as a human?
And we've covered some of thestuff.
But now think broader.
Think somebody who wasn'tinterested in research and you
just said, hey, mate, what doyou like about your work'd you
stay?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
it's so difficult because different people are
motivated by different things,and if you are the type of
person who is motivated byrelatively mundane tasks and
these people do exist, yeah,yeah then if you're well paid
for that and you know there's anice culture around you, then
(09:06):
you're perfectly happy.
Right go back there's a two ifs, aren't they?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
yeah, so what is?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
that well paid.
But then then the culture issomething else.
Well, this is something you andI talked a bit about recently
and I know it's a hot topic ofyours.
Culture, I think, is a verybroad and difficult subject to
define, isn't it?
For a large group ofindividuals.
And in fact, I remember one ofour clients years ago saying he
thought the optimum number forany type of company of people
(09:36):
was 147.
He'd worked it out and thoughtthat beyond that it gets a bit
ungainly and a bit big, andbelow that it's very much a
small business.
But 147, he thought, was anexcellent size for a good size
business.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
There was something about it being a maximum snooker
break as well.
I think.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Well, I think that was just a coincidence, but then
there's an idea that 147 youcan create probably a pretty
good positive culture Beyondthat.
You then have to start, youknow, taking into account so
many different types that itbecomes almost impossible.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Let me simplify it.
Let me do the de Bono techniqueof eyes of a child.
In fact, let's go to childrenfor a minute as parents all over
the country, if you are aparent and your child goes to
school, they're either happy atschool or they're not happy at
school.
What's the fundamental thing?
Let's talk about children,because it's the same that makes
a kid happy at school.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Friends, that's it right, yeah, and and also decent
teachers yes, but primarilythey're not being bullied.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
There's enough nice people around them, yeah, sure.
So that is what my researchshows is the people who really
get asked this question of whatmotivates you.
They simply say the peoplethere's enough good eggs about.
I'm stimulated by the people.
I enjoy the way they think theyfundamentally point out that
the people are all right.
This is beyond money.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And actually, if you think about the number of times
you talk to people about yourcareer and places you've worked
and people say things like Iwould love to have a company
with all of the great peopleI've worked with in that company
.
So all those people that I'vegot on with over the years who
were good, bring them into anorganization together and it
(11:26):
would be unbeatable.
Yeah, but then when youactually think about that, who's
to say that that particulargroup of people?
Would actually get on.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You don't know that, but there we are and what's
interesting about the researchI've done is that the way the
company does that, theircontribution primarily, is very
good recruitment.
We get the right fit so thatthe bunch of people here who are
actually quite nice and not barstewards, we get more people to
(11:59):
join them who are like-mindedsouls.
So that's tough becauserecruitment's tough.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Really tough.
I think it must be the toughestit's ever been at the moment.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Well, the consultant I talked to international, very
well thought of consultancybecause some are not, but this
one is consistently is thoughtof as well, really careful over
who they bring in because theywant to be coming in for some
time.
And he also said he doesn't hopskip, skip jump because of
money, because even though hemight earn more with another
(12:28):
consultancy, the people arestimulating, the work is good
and that's enough to retain andmotivate Because once your money
is okay, even in that jokeysketch at the beginning, you
might get another few grand.
But when you're a bit older andthis chap is you know mid-50s,
does it matter?
Chap is you know mid-50s, doesit matter?
The extra grand here and theredoes it matter, you know?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
well, that's similar to a chap who was very, very um
present on linkedin a few yearsago who ran a I think it was
seattle or sanfrancisco baseddot com I don't know what the
kind of company it was, but itwas successful and he was
(13:08):
growing and employing people.
And he realized that to employpeople on entry level salaries
was going to increase his staffturnover, which was going to
increase his cost, which wasgoing to be a pain, and so he
made the executive decision thatevery single person in the
company would be on a minimum of75,000.
(13:29):
Now that's a really bold thingto do, an expensive thing to do,
but of course, it meant thathis staff turnover was 0%
Because they were all amply paidfor what they were doing and
they committed and they weresuccessful as a result.
Now, that's incrediblyenlightened.
When you think about it, that'sa really, really bold thing to
(13:50):
do.
But also, if you're seriousabout growth, it's a statement
of intent, isn't?
Speaker 1 (13:58):
it An interesting experiment that Daniel Pink's
running at the moment with theWashington Post where he says
send in what you think would bea much better world.
And people are sending thingslike double the pay of teachers,
reduce the pay of bankers.
I mean, that's always popular.
Yeah, let's do a bit of historyin this.
(14:19):
So let's talk about Taylorismor Frederick Winslow Taylor,
who's an interesting individual.
So we're talking about thegrowth of production here.
So he's the first person inkind of scientific management
who thinks that workers aresolely motivated by money and
the way to motivate them, retainthem, is to pay them right.
But what he does, which isinteresting and it's still done
(14:41):
in a number of places today, ishe doesn't view employees as
individuals.
He sees them as part of alarger workforce and by getting
them to do their specialisttasks well with the best
possible tools available to dothat, they will do their
individual task.
They'll be paid well enough forit.
Our production will be okay.
Now, this is developed in thelate 1890s and it's gone on
(15:03):
since.
But it loses out to lack ofvariety in the role, and so if
I'm just smacking something onthe head all day, or buffering
something or whatever it mightbe, I begin to go oh, I'd quite
like some variety in my work.
So actually it has a limitedeffect, but Taylorism in
producing productive workforceis quite important.
(15:26):
Henry ford had a very clever wayof motivating, retaining people
, because before people workmuch harder, he more or less
coined the nine to five and saidlook, you can clear off at five
, don't be in before nine.
And everyone right, becauseit's been a bit looser.
I've been turned up at 8, 30out of here.
At six he went no, no, no.
And five days a week forget thesaturdays, very common in the
(15:48):
us to work on saturdays foryears.
So ford thinks he can retainbetter workers by having a sort
of motivating set week.
And then the other thing thatbranches out next, which you've
heard of, is the experimentwhich is generally coined as the
Hawthorne effect.
So these are Harvard BusinessSchool people in the 20s, so
(16:12):
Elton Mayo, fritz Roethlisbergeror Roethlisberger and William
Dixon.
What they do is they go to thisplace called the Hawthorne
Works, which is enormous.
I've looked at maps of it.
It's scarily big WesternElectric Company in Illinois,
45,000 people working there.
Okay, and their experimentshows that the way to motivate
people is just observe them.
(16:34):
Let them know that you'rewatching them and you're going
right.
This is what you're doing.
Pay them attention.
Um, yeah, no, no, no that's not.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
There's got to be more to than just watching,
otherwise it's like big brother,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (16:48):
no, no, talking to them, asking them getting their
input on the work.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah, it's a bit, a bit like brazil.
You know the guy in brazilgetting input from people who
are working on the shop floor interms of decision making and
that sort of thing, no, but thisis give an input into your
working conditions because wewant to make them better.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Let's really value your input.
This is where it goesinteresting, even if they didn't
implement all of the feedbackstuff, because they'd had a
chance to input and beenobserved in their work and felt
someone's getting a much greaterempathy over what they're going
through.
They were more motivated,rather than they don't
understand what we do down here,which is now why people do
(17:25):
annual staff feedback surveysyeah, and pay them more just
before the sunday times bestcompanies to work for comes out,
absolutely, absolutely.
So that's the hawthorne is thatif we spend some time asking,
observing, trying to improvetheir conditions, reviewing
things and making an impact ontheir working environment, we
(17:47):
can motivate and retainemployees.
Okay, I mean, there's so manyI've discounted because there
were so many lovely spinoffs ofthis.
The other thing is, you know wetalk a lot about feeling
purposeful at work, if you like.
So if you take all of that asthe intrinsic stuff is your own
(18:08):
feeling of accomplishment, whatdo companies do to do that?
Well, it is really building onhawthorne.
They recognize your strengths,allow you to do that, praise you
, give you feedback and then allthe extrinsic stuff money and
stuff.
I used to get like and youprobably had this cheap frames
with uh, printed out awards init.
(18:30):
You know the number one sellerof this and they'd hand out
these black employee of themonth.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
It's that sort of yes yes, all that extrinsic stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Some people don't give a monkey's about that no in
a sense it's a sort of sugarspike.
And in fact when I was joking inmy research about that, contact
centers, when we walk aroundthem, sometimes yay, and someone
gets given a massive box ofcelebrations or a load of Krispy
Kremes, it's like let's givethem confectionery rewards yeah,
(18:58):
sugar spike.
And then they're absolutelyhopeless on the phone for hours.
So sometimes short term, youknow.
Today I remember I was in aplace and this woman called
Joanna running it, went and gota bit of Blu-Tack and stuck 20
quid on the board and said thefirst person to make a sale,
come and take that off andthat's yours.
And it's like what's going on?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
here, oh that's so common.
But actually what it does showis that somebody will just
immediately pick up the phoneand make a sale because they
think, well, I'll have that.
And isn't it funny how thebrain clicks in, whereas 30
minutes before that was the lastthing you were thinking yeah.
So I mean, that happened to mebefore.
I had to sell a page ofadvertising by five o'clock that
(19:38):
day, or we were going to pull aproject and I went running into
my director's office sayingI've sold a page, I've sold a
page.
And we were all jumping up anddown and glad handing each other
.
I mean, had he not given usthat deadline, I don't think I
would have bothered.
So it just goes to show thatsometimes these things work.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
The reality is sales training.
This podcast has been createdby Reality Training.
We're a UK-based training andleadership brand who work across
all sectors to improvebusinesses and their people.
Our tagline is SellingCertainty, because that's what
we do Give you more certainty inhow you do things and give you
(20:22):
certainty about how you sellthings.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Find out more at realitytrainingcom let's go into
now some other stuff which isyou know it's quite fun and
we'll just condense it down thejob characteristics model.
You're right you're gonna likethis and I've made up that that
he didn't want to give his firstname neither of the two blokes
working on this because thepeople who did this called
(20:46):
hackman and oldman.
So I'm making out it's genehackman and gary oldman, that
they got a bit bored working onfilm sets and they thought
they'd yeah, they do someoccupational psychology not bad,
it's not a bad, you know switchso think about all the
companies you work with and justtell me where you think you've
had this so skill variety, thedegree to which the job requires
(21:07):
skills and talents.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
So this is a way of keeping you satisfied yeah, I
mean, I've had that in one ortwo jobs, but not okay yep task
identity the degree to which thejob has contributed to a
clearly bigger project.
I think a lot of the companiesI've worked with have been
incredibly siloed, exactly,exactly, incredibly so.
(21:30):
You don't actually know whatyour input is to the overall
success of the organization.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Spot on.
So Gene Hackman and Gary Oldmanbasically say I can't say that
because it's probably the real.
Hackman and Oldman say that ifyou're beavering away and you go
, where's this going?
You don't even know where it'sgoing.
You're not going to feel sogood and motivated and rewarded.
No Task significance, which isslightly different to identity,
is the degree to which the jobaffects the lives or work of
(21:56):
other people.
What I do keeps kids happy inschools.
What I do make sure everyonegets into work on time.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
What I do no, I mean, that's so rare yeah I can't
imagine many commercialorganizations really thinking
about now.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
I talked to tash teacher.
My wife and I often say you'relucky.
I've never called it tarsignificance, but I often say
you know, she was in the pub notlong ago and a load of
ex-students from 15 years agocame up to and started Mrs Blake
, hugging her.
I'm now doing this and Ithought you have extreme impact.
These people go off and doother things and you've really
helped them.
(22:32):
Again you have that, but mostof us, you know, we don't see
that impact.
You've got real.
I'll now call it tasksignificance.
So the next one that keeps youmotivated and satisfied is
autonomy.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Well, we've done several podcasts on this subject
.
Well, tell the listeners whatthat is.
Well, the freedom to makedecisions and to decide and not
have to keep on referring tomanagers all the time, or just
check with my manager.
The moment you stop doing thatand you make a choice, and that
choice will be backed by theorganization, then you get
growth and development and youbecome, you know, master of your
(23:05):
own game.
How many?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
people a week are reality trainers coming across
who you know?
Variance in autonomy isn'tthere.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
It's so difficult sometimes, because what you get
is new people who've never donesomething before who start doing
it.
They need to be taught and needto learn their jobs up to a
point, but as soon as you can,you need to try and give them a
level of autonomy where they canthen start making choices,
(23:36):
because they start adaptingtheir own styles and that sort
of thing.
If it's, too, that's going tocontribute to some of the things
you talked about earlier.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
So the next one is task feedback.
That's the degree to which theemployee is provided with clear,
specific, detailed informationabout the effectiveness of what
they've done.
It's quite simple, isn't it?
But you say well done, you knowyou did that thing earlier.
The architect's taken it downto the bank and they love the
design and the way you laid itout means that we're going to
build the bank, or whatever.
How many people have given that?
(24:04):
So I thought as a thing togoogle the job characteristics
model.
You can map that against youand say what are we doing as a
business to create skill variety, task identity, significance,
autonomy and feedback?
It's not bad, is it?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
it is quite good.
I think the problem withfeedback is that these days we
try wrongly in my view to givemostly positive feedback and if
anything negative happens, it'seither ignored or forgotten or
sort of scotched over and peopledon't do much about it.
And I think what that does?
(24:36):
It means it makes people verynervous about making mistakes
and I think there's a terriblefear of making mistakes these
days.
People need to make mistakes tolearn lessons, to develop, to
grow.
Somebody once said to me amanager I worked with years ago.
He said if you've got somebodywho's making lots of mistakes,
it means they're really trying,and sometimes we miss that.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
I wholly agree.
And we'll cut straight to oneof the people I spoke to, danny
hoskins, who said as a salesmanager he's got some very young
people coming into the the beerselling trade and they're
making mistakes and he says thisis great because then we can
sit down and talk about whatthey did or didn't do.
But they're keen, so that hefinds they're quite motivated to
be given autonomy to try things.
(25:21):
Sometimes they're not preparedenough.
Sometimes they do a big pitchbut forget to do the tasting, or
it can be anything.
But I absolutely agree with you.
I think if you've got a rigidenvironment, the only thing I
don't well, it's not that Idon't necessarily agree with,
but I think it's slightlydifferent.
People are afraid of harshfeedback, but I think what I see
happening in some environmentsis they don't do any of the
(25:41):
difficult conversation.
Then suddenly the individualthey're meant to manage is
suddenly on whatever they callthese things pips, or yeah,
performance plans so they've notdone the feedback and then it's
go straight to I'm sorry, whatit's?
first time I've heard it, yeah,but I've got all the evidence
now.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah how much effort and time's gone into that, yeah,
to get to that point.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I've got a really difficult employee in my team.
Have you told them?
No, I'm watching them.
They're still on probation.
Why don't you try and help, youknow?
I find that odd it's poormanagement.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah, and that comes back to the original thing that
if you've got a bad manager,you'll know they're bad, because
any negative feedback they'llhold until it's too late.
That's bad management.
Yeah, you know why didn't wetalk about this three months ago
?
Well, so you spend all thattime watching me make mistakes,
watching me get things wrong,and watch me being less
effective, rather than coachingme or developing me to be better
(26:33):
, which might mean it's personal.
They just want to get rid ofyou, absolutely right, which is
well.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
These days it's not so easy to do Something right,
which is well.
These days it's not so easy todo something else right.
Let's go to another bit of uhtheory.
Frederick herzberg with histwo-factor theory of motivation.
Now this is fun.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I mean, I can just see all our listeners now
desperately googling oh, theywill be go through these.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
It's just brilliant I've had to select some of the
stuff in this.
Yeah, he says that in a companyyou've got a bunch of people
called satisfiers and you've gotanother bunch who are
dissatisfiers I mean don't beperfect so many ways.
Couldn't you, yeah, okay thedifference is is your satisfiers
.
They're going around andeverything they do is associated
(27:14):
with job satisfaction, okay.
And then the other lot,interestingly, interestingly,
the dissatisfiers.
Their motivation is associatedwith hygiene or maintenance,
right, so keeping it as it is,keeping it clean, orderly, tidy,
that's what you're doing overthere.
We don't want to do any of that.
So your dissatisfiers want thework environment to be right,
(27:38):
right, whereas all thesatisfiers are going on about
doing it right and motivatingand sort of really achieving
stuff.
As, whereas you've got allthese dissatisfiers going around
, going, hang on a minute,what's the policy?
Can we follow that?
And if you've got too manydissatisfiers in the company and
you're a satisfier, you'regoing to go flipping.
Oh, this lot just want to runthis as a kind of system.
(28:01):
I'm out of here.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
It's such great language and um, we've just got
to be so careful well, I cantalk about companies at bus, my
grandfather's business.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
They're a manufacturer making parts for
cars and stuff.
Okay, yeah and as a kid Iworked in the factory.
I remember on my first day thisbell went and I carried on
doing what I was doing, whichwas going through old purchase
ledger copies and we could throwout everything from five years.
I think the law has changed nowand this bloke walked past me
(28:33):
and he was about five years old.
I mean, what are you doing?
I went, what?
am I doing yeah, what are youdoing?
I went I'm just, uh, doing the.
Yeah, I can see what you'redoing, but what are you doing?
Doing?
And I went I don't understand.
I was about 17.
I went I'm just no, I know whatyou're doing, but what are you
doing?
And he wouldn't let me awaywith it and he wouldn't give me
any more help with the question.
(28:54):
And then someone put their armon his shoulder and said Gary,
leave him alone, that'sMichael's grandson.
And he went oh, all right, buthe didn't care about that.
He went.
So what he said what are youdoing?
The bell has gone.
He did not want me to beworking a minute longer.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
He thought I was insane and all I was doing was
one extra box, so I didn't haveto look at that box in the
morning.
That's slightly fascistic.
Look at timekeeping andunionizing.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
You could say oh yeah , there were a number of people
who were out of there on thebell.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, okay, but then that's also similar, though, to
what Steve Jobs used to do.
So Steve Jobs at Apple wouldwander along the corridor, see
someone come the other direction, say hello there, what do you
do?
And if that person couldn'tgive a succinct and specific
answer as to the value they weredelivering to Apple, that
person wasn't going to be aroundfor any longer, because Steve
(29:44):
Jobs' perspective was that youshould know what value you are
delivering to this organization.
You should know what yourpurpose is.
How do you connect that to that?
What are you saying?
Is that the bloke?
Because what you could havesaid, had you been a bit older
and a bit more experienced, isthat I'm making my life easier
for tomorrow by efficientlyhaving this thing done on time,
and the guy can't argue withthat, because that's you
(30:06):
sticking he may have done well.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Well, you, you don't need to, or so you may have come
back with something else.
There we are.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
So back to your original point about the purpose
of someone, what it is they'rethere to do, and I think there's
lots of organizations who haveemploy many people who have no
real idea what their purpose is,what their value is, where
they're delivering any value theline that I think sums it up
from hertzberg and all thisresearch.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
He says this, and I'll read it, because I wrote
this bit down providing hygieneand maintenance needs for people
prevents dissatisfaction butwill never contribute to
satisfaction because, it's abasic requirement for life but
some people are sticklers andthey want all of that, so they
want it to run.
And funny, I was listening to aneconomist the other day and
(30:51):
your comment about managersshould maybe be doing this
Veblen.
This economist said managersdon't ever want overproduction,
they really want to controlproduction.
Veblen loved industrialists andentrepreneurs because he said
they were creative and trying tomake products and help the
country grow.
But your managers were the bestone in the world.
(31:11):
They wanted to limit productionand control it.
Because he would possibly leanto say a number of them are
dissatisfiers, let's run it inthis way.
They're not leaders, they'remanagers of things.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Well, that's interesting.
Interesting, isn't it?
Because I think you could alsosay that we've worked with sales
teams and sales managers whodon't want their individuals to
go way over target.
What are you, yeah, what areyou doing?
don't go way over target putthat in the in the box for next
month.
Yeah, no, but I can earn morecommission.
No, no, no, no, you don't wantto do that.
(31:44):
Yeah, you've hit your target.
Now let's just make life easierfor the next month.
Now, that's classic stuff,where what you're actually
saying is let's not go too farover, then we won't earn
anything and the targets will bethrown up.
It's such a negative way towork.
It's such a demotivating way towork.
Why not motivate people to makeas much money as possible,
because we're scared thatthey're going to do better than
(32:05):
us and make more money than us?
Speaker 1 (32:07):
either they'll do better than us and make more
than us, or, as a manager, I'llhave a harder job trying to
achieve the new targets that weset after this totally totally,
which is actuallycounterproductive ultimately.
That's, that's what veblen goeson about.
So, in a sense, don't just cutout a layer of management almost
cut out management.
You talked about culture.
(32:27):
I think one thing that came upfrom conversation with Jeremy
working with a growingaccountancy business was that he
thinks one of the attractionsand this is a person who's had
30 years as his own entrepreneur, now he's working in an
organization to become anemployee.
So I only spoke to people whoare technically employees
entrepreneur and now he'sworking in an organization
become an employee.
So I only spoke to people whoare technically employees.
He said what's very attractiveis all the directors work in the
(32:48):
business, not just on thebusiness.
Now that is counter to you and Iwhen we started the business
and we meet people who say, asyou're growing, you've got to
stop working in the business,you've got to start working on
the business.
And we understand the lovelyplay on the two prepositions,
but the point being is thatwhat's attractive is you've got
a senior director who might alsobe an accountant and in the in
(33:11):
the booking system, might findhimself sitting next to a very
junior person and they see themworking with customers and
clients.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
I think all of that becomes much harder the larger
organization is and they'rebecoming larger.
If you're, if you're at yourclass at 147, that's eminently
possible.
I would say it.
Once you get to two, three,four, a thousand people, then
you've got a much harder way ofworking in the business.
(33:38):
I'm there are directors who dodo that and they burn out, they
can, can't let go of stuff andthey want to be in control, and
then all of that stuff takesplace.
But I think the size of thebusiness dictates that
specifically.
It's interesting because Ithink you and I there's bits
that we enjoy doing, that wewould want to continue to do in
(34:00):
the business, but there's bitsthat we're also happy to let
other people oh yeah do, and soI think maybe that changes as
your career changes.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
If you're in an organization long enough, then
you would imagine there would bea shift but also can you
imagine the extreme culturewhere directors in inverted
commas senior people, whateveryou want to them don't really do
any of the work that culturemight be?
We're selling windows and doorshere and you guys have no idea
(34:30):
about that, and yet you know soyou might.
The further away you get fromthe customer, as John Seddon
used to say, the further you getaway from the customer, the
less you understand what thebusiness is like today.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
I think you see that in so many things.
There's that program in the USwhere CEOs go undercover into
their own business and see whatit's like.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
They all are shocked and amazed, which means they
haven't really been close to itand you just think well, what
the hell have you been doing?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
for the last 10 years then, because if it's taken
this for you to realize thereality of what it's like, then
clearly you've been so detachedfrom what you're doing that it's
almost as though the businesshas functioned despite your
position rather than throughyour position, and I think
that's an interesting note.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Let's talk briefly about the NHS.
So a friend who's at the NHSvery experienced one of the
things that I think has changedwith an organisation like that
how do you motivate and keeppeople in the nhs?
And if you think about peoplewe know who are in the nhs,
other people we know, it's a,you know, a huge beast with
trust.
So a couple of things came outof covid.
Is they now have to assesspeople much more closely, give
(35:39):
feedback on how they are andwork out.
In fact we should just accessher language.
You know the contentment andthe structure.
They've tightened up on a lotof, if you like, the pathways of
communication, so they'retrying to track that.
On top of that is the recentpay awards, of course, so people
are feeling that they'reearning a bit more.
There's this system called thegratitude card so staff can send
(36:03):
and thank other to staff andother departments and that's
audited.
So your department is verygrateful to another department,
you say thank you and they audithow much of that thanks is
going around.
I found that fascinating so youknow there's sort of a lot more
on kindness and stuff, but Ithink again, the thing that
stood out for her is theextraordinary teamwork and the
(36:28):
appreciation and that is whatmakes it an efficient and
productive workforce underextremely challenging times.
And your point, coming in asshe ends her message with me, is
it's now evolved to be so muchbigger than ever envisaged.
Finances can't match it.
How do we continue to researchand innovate?
(36:49):
You know that's what makes ithard, but for her it's working
with brilliant people who are,who are supportive and kind,
right, which comes back to early.
You know the kid at school ifyou're with enough good people,
you're happier okay.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
so we're going to have a break now and when we
come back we're going to look atsome other ways that many
organizations will motivate andretain their staff.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Created by Reality Training, this podcast is one of
our resources provided to ourbusiness audience and our
clients.
For access to more material,check out our website,
realitytrainingcom, for links toYouTube, films, books and many
other resources.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
So if we simplify you know we had some fun with
looking at research and sort ofthe history of it you're really
looking at salary bonus.
Bonus may not be money, so youmight have organizations that
say, go and stay in one of ourcottages okay we'll give you
this at the end of thediscretionary mandatory, but
(38:02):
it's often quite loose forpeople that aren't salespeople,
that's a challenge Flexibility.
So one of the ways that's comeout of the hybrid world that
we're now in is a lot of peopleare a little bit more happy in
the work because there'sflexibility of how and where
they do it.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Well, this is an up and coming topic that we're
going to be looking at on thepodcast the idea of hybrid
working and digital nomads.
I have done a little bit ofresearch, which says that lots
of new starters are expecting tobe able to work in a hybrid
fashion from day one of theircareer, which I think is again
quite a new thing.
But maybe we shouldn't be toosurprised.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Well, what's interesting about general
flexibility?
If you think about if you watchany sort of classic film or
comedy or anything it could evenbe typical jack lemon film, if
you like you'll see him gettinghis mac and going into a
building to work it could be abank, an insurance company, for
(39:03):
example and the whole thing is abuilding and it has levels and
hierarchies and departments.
And what's fun in the buildingIs there a social night out?
But that kind of idea that theflexibility comes within the
building is now changed.
The flexibility comes in.
How often do you go into thebuilding, see your teams and
again?
We look forward to your podcastwhen you expand on this.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Well, just you mentioning that made me think
about the series Mad Men, whichwas very popular about 10 years
ago, which was set in the 50s,started in the 50s and in that
everybody was in the officebefore nine.
Everybody, everyone's assistantwas in the office before nine.
Everybody, everyone's assistantwas in the office before them.
(39:46):
They would never arrive aftertheir boss, so that was a huge
hierarchical thing.
But people's lives existedwithin the office.
Everybody smoked in the office,everybody drank in the office,
everyone had their lunch in theoffice, everything took place in
that office all day long.
It was like a whole life tookplace and then everything else
(40:08):
was superfluous.
Actually, it came second tothat time spent in the office
and that was deep-rooted for awhile.
But of course now it's shiftedcompletely.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Well, companies.
I was in an interesting biginternational organization
yesterday and they're makingquite a lot of the building
being bream b-r-e-a-m I think itis an acronym meaning it's
built in such a way with suchecological credentials.
So martha, my daughter, who'sjust started uni, she was
feeding back to me dad, we'vegot a bream building here and I
(40:38):
looked online and it'sextraordinary building the way
it does stuff with water,everything, so that I don't know
how many people would be.
I'm happier to go into work nowbecause there's a bream
building there.
But what companies are doing is, before the pandemic they were,
you know, large companies likefacebook, where I had a friend
gyms, restaurants, cafes,showers all of that was built.
(41:02):
Now companies are going that'sstandard, that it's not
innovative, it's we've got tohave that anyway.
What else?
Speaker 3 (41:09):
bowls of fruit.
Nice food?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
it's not just like the ad agency with a football
table.
What else do we?
Speaker 3 (41:15):
need to do.
But then, ironically, all ofthat will be in place and
there'll be a huge room full ofpeople, some on higher up stools
, working on higher up tables,some on stand up desks, some
sitting in a team.
And yet now, more and more, Ialso see in the corner of the
office a booth, a soundproofbooth, not cheap, and you go in
(41:46):
there.
If a you want to work insilence, you actually need to go
into a little booth and pullthe door shut so you can focus
on something, or you do yourprivate little meeting in there,
or your zoom meeting in there.
And that's another shift wherewe all used to work together in
a team and the hubbub was partof the scenario, but now you can
take yourself off to yourlittle booth and focus there for
a bit so the only booths againI'm thinking cinematically, for
(42:08):
this is where I go often is theonly booths that were like that
with the telephone booths, sure?
Speaker 1 (42:14):
so if you needed a private conversation, you go in
the telephone booth yeah, andthere were stand-up ones with
the stuff that came around theirheads, yeah, so otherwise it's
the busy office and you've gotto just live with it by the
other.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Tandem is that you get organizations, have an
entire company on one bigelongated desk going down a big
room so the directors are at oneend and everybody else is at
the other and then you just moveup and down the desk depending
on who you want to talk to, andthat's another, you know,
concept of we all work together.
(42:44):
We're all part of one big teamand the fact that you're just
broken up in teams as you godown is one of those things so
let's talk about gen zmillennials.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
So one of the other things that motivates retain
them is that we are far moresupportive with their mental
health yeah good so that'schanged hugely I mean if we know
we've got children that havecome out of all that period and
how hard it is for them.
The other thing that comes upjust in general research,
talking to people, is I'mmotivated as long as this
(43:13):
relatively constantcommunication and I know what
the hell's going on, and somecompanies are good at sharing
success.
So if you take large companiesthat actually employ people and
we know people who have theseinternal marketing communication
jobs, but let's know about someof the good stuff we're doing
Can we share that please?
Because that's motivating toknow that you've won this or
(43:37):
we've just done this.
Some companies are very poor.
Did we not tell you that wejust won that?
No, and that goes back toOldman and Hackman's thing about
(44:01):
what's the tar significance youknow if, and it also comes out
of the pandemic what alsomotivates me to stay with an
organization, because they letme do something that before the
pandemic I had to have a rarecondition or you would not let
me do this.
Dogs, well done.
How did you get?
Speaker 3 (44:20):
that so quickly, because the pandemic everyone
got everyone got a dog.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, well done so that's it.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
And in fact, one of our clients now allows dogs in,
yes, well, and my wife.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
So her school is full of hounds.
And Axel was in yesterday and Isaid what did the kids do?
I said how many kids do youthink stroked him and fussed him
and stuff?
She said OK, I'll work, work itout.
How many do you think?
It is over a hundred, correct,over a hundred kids fussed him?
I said a hundred.
She said yeah, and he just sortof greeted all of them and some
(44:51):
he would lift his leg.
Can you scratch my tummy please?
And a hundred kids now that's ahundred.
Interactions with children tomake them feel better, that's
incredible good and very good.
You don't have to organize childcare, don't have to do anything
else like that.
The only other thing that issort of requires more
understanding and stuff is ifyou were to sort of lift your
(45:13):
job to be part of a higherpurpose and you were
contributing to the greater good, you're likely to be motivated
to retain.
So if you work with anorganization that is really
trying to empower a community,that can be very, very
(45:33):
motivating, that you're part ofsomething that is quite
innovative and the wholecommunity benefit.
It promotes health and a goodenvironment.
It's very hard to do so.
Some of these sort of higherplaying areas, if you like.
Very few companies achieve that.
But then if you look atsomething like the National
Trust that relies on volunteersor you look at charities that
(45:55):
relies on volunteers, what'sinteresting is they retain their
employees in inverted commasbecause they're not paid,
because they feel so purposeful.
So they feel what I do allowspeople to walk around this
ancient building and I tend tothe grounds where I stub the
tickets here or or it could be.
I work in this hospice shop.
(46:16):
More and more research showsthat if somebody feels they're
contributing to the greater good, they're likely to hang around
on low wages or even volunteers,so that's quite interesting as
well.
That's about it, really.
The only other thing that Ifound quite interesting was you
know that classic about, hey,talent management, let's get
more A players, and all that Iread a lovely article about hang
(46:38):
on to your B players, and thatthere's far more B players in
your organization than a's.
And as you said yourself, youknow these mavericks going over
target, whoa, whoa, whoa.
You two, slow down.
You know this.
I've got eight others.
Can you, can you not overperform too much?
Speaker 3 (46:54):
that's the simon sinek thing in the navy seals in
the us.
If you are a a b player effect,but with high integrity, high
trust, you're more likely to bemade an officer and be more
trusted than someone who's amaverick but low trust, who's
really amazing.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
And we like films like that, don't we?
We're the maverick.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
I think that's a really good one, and actually
you could argue that a wholecompany of b players will be yes
, and, and if they've got highabsolutely, and and the very
simple thing is, the way tomotivate, retain them is simply
this get to know them andappreciate them, because if
you're constantly praising youra's but we've talked about this
(47:39):
on another episode your a's aredisloyal bonders and out for
themselves.
They're gonna jump to anothercompany in two years and then
another one in two years.
I was talking to somebody theother day about a job that we're
not going to do and I lookedthem up on linkedin before we
spoke.
They are 15 years younger thanme and on their 27th job and I
(47:59):
just thought whoa, what's goingon here?
so anyway, lots of ways to tryand motivate and retain
employees.
By all means go back and have alook at some of the fun models
and stuff.
But primarily, if you can tryand recruit people who will fit
in and be kind and listen andask and praise and be part of
the greater whole, then you'vegot a good chance of holding on
(48:23):
to them.
If there's poor communication,no one knows what they're doing
and you think it's all aboutmoney, then you're pretty
outdated really.
Speaker 3 (48:30):
Well, thank you for that, Jeremy.
That's been very, veryinteresting, and I should be
looking up some of those nameswhen we finish Hackman and
Oldman.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Absolutely.
Thank you for listening.
If you think a friend mightenjoy this on a car journey, why
don't you forward it to themthrough whichever listening
service you or they have?
If you'd like to get in touchwith us, you can do that.
Give us some feedback.
But thank you very much forlistening.
Cheers for now.
Catch you on another one soon.
Bobby bye, thank you.
well, thanks for coming in, bob.
It's lovely I get a.
I suppose the only time I getto have a one-to-one with
absolutely everybody.
Um, well, as you know, everyyear I like to start with the
same question.
Um, and I've looked at yourwell file, digital file these
days, but 17 years years yeahthank you.
(00:23):
Thank you first of all.
Thank you, it's all right.
So, as you know or may not know, but we'll say we, we run
various things, we try to dovarious things to motivate and
retain you, and it's just aboutyou, bob.
So if you think of all thedifferent things that have
happened over the last year,what do you think is the number
(00:45):
one thing that keeps youmotivated and staying with
gordon and sons?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
um, I suppose it's two things really.
Um, my commute now is mucheasier, so that's quite handy,
and I suppose maybe I shouldn'tsay this.
I suppose the money is okay.
So those two things, yeah, theytick the boxes really.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
But hang on.
What about the without menaming it?
Do you remember the thing welaunched in February?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Oh, yeah, yeah, that was quite good, yeah, I mean.
Yeah, I mean all that stuff isall very well, but really you
know, the fact that I get paidreasonably well and it's it's an
easy commute makes it all youknow fairly okay.
Right.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Well, well, well, thanks.
So welcome to another episodeof the Reality of Business.
(02:11):
How are you, Bobby boy?
I'm very well indeed.
Sir, how are you?
Yeah, I'm good.
This has been an interestingtopic and I sort of realised
that the headline how tomotivate and retain employees,
employees could lead you down athousand avenues, but I've tried
to sort of whenever I foundsomething to say hang on, is
that to do with motivating andretaining?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
so it's quite hard as you'll see, it is hard I think
about as a question how tomotivate and retain employees.
It's almost the pivotalquestion for any manager.
Actually, how do you motivateyour people and make sure they
stay with you?
And if you can get those twothings right, you've probably
(02:54):
got a reasonable business.
But I'm sure you're about toconvey to us it's not perhaps as
easy as people might think.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Well, let's start with a little guessing game.
So, gallup, quite a wellthought of polling research
organization.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Oh, very well thought of, I would say.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I'd go further, dr Gallup, of course.
So they ran a survey comingtowards the end of 2020.
Obviously a few things going onin the world or beginning to go
on in the world 2020.
Obviously, a few things goingon in the world or beginning to
go on in the world.
Yeah, and it was calledemployee burnout causes and
cures and it was a very largesample.
(03:31):
Okay, what percentage ofemployees sometimes experience
burnout on the job and we couldargue by burnout they have lost
some of their mojo, they're notmotivated and they're almost at
breaking point.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
What percentage of employees sometimes experience
burnout or have experienced it,is it sometimes, or how?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
no, no, it's.
They've definitely had it oncetwice okay, okay it's not a
one-off.
It's something that they mighthave for a period of time and it
goes away again.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I mean, I cannot imagine the percentage, but I
would put it quite high.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, it is, it's 76% Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Okay, so three quarters of employees are
sometimes experienced burnout.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Let's come to the second question.
They asked what percentage ofthose same people are feeling it
very regularly.
We must be over 50.
No, it's 28, so okay, okay,coming up to a third of people
are going to work, and regularlygoing into a burnout state.
(04:39):
okay, so we'll also start on aretention, little sort of thing.
Immediately, just off the topof your head, there are sort of
six reasons why an employeeleaves.
What do you reckon they mightbe?
You can call out any of them.
So it's going to be money, yepgood.
Inadequate salary or hourlyrate because of the HR demons,
(05:03):
the manager not getting on withthe manager eight because of the
hr demons.
Yeah, the manager not gettingon with the manager.
Yes, yes, we'll put that intothe unhappy with management per
se.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely so you've got four to
go.
Keep it going then.
Um, it's going to be god, Imean, it's real go back to the
first stat I gave you.
Oh, okay, so they're.
They're feeling burnt out andwant to change.
Overworked, yeah, overworked.
Overworked, unsupported Changeas good as arrest.
So they go for that Very good,yep.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
There's three more.
Lack of development.
Perfect, well done.
You're doing great, really good.
Little to no room, yep, yep.
Other well companies closewhether they are approached or
not.
There are more compelling jobopportunities, so I must leave,
okay, okay.
So there's one more, which is,if you like, a lot of what
(05:53):
coaching tries to address well,some degree of self-motivation
in some form.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
50, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Work-life balance oh okay, fine in our little sketch,
you and, uh, your imaginarypartner, barbara, or whoever had
moved nearer to you at gordonand son.
Yeah, you, you quite like thefact your commute was reduced
and you thought you paid enough.
You had two working for you,but arguably you weren't that
fussed about the others well,some of those things all feed in
(06:23):
anyway.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I mean, if your work-life balance isn't right,
you're going to be burnt out anddemotivated, yeah, and if your
money isn't great, that's goingto make.
I mean, all of these things aregoing to compound, yeah, I
think it'd be very rare for youto go.
The only reason I'm leaving isbecause of this one thing yeah,
it's going to be a combinationof things which will get you
going in the right direction soI suppose the thing to talk
(06:43):
about straight away is the twothings are very closely linked.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
So if you're motivated at work, it's going to
possibly keep you there.
So motivation and retention arelinked.
However, what my research showsup is sometimes companies don't
necessarily do anything.
So what's been interesting?
I've talked to someone workingin a very well-known consultancy
.
I've talked to someone who'sdone very interesting work in
(07:09):
the NHS.
I've talked to Danny, friend ofthe podcast, who's a sales
director at Curious Brewery andmaking lovely beer, and I've
talked to a friend with a veryfast-growing accountancy
business.
So I've sort of had somein-depth personal stuff coming
back.
What's interesting is sometimesthese people don't necessarily
(07:30):
think the company's doing it, sothe company may not actually be
doing anything.
So I thought I'd kick off andtry to get you to remember a
famous Dostoevsky quote that wecan apply to businesses.
So what did he say about happyand unhappy families?
I really, I mean whilst I haveread you, you know this quote
(07:52):
you we and I've we've talkedabout it before so maybe I have,
but I've read, I haven't got itin front of me, but I'm going
to paraphrase it, which issomething like all happy
families are alike.
All unhappy families are unhappyin their own very unique way
okay, fair enough, that's verytrue, yeah yeah, and what I've
(08:12):
found is that in my generalresearch this is sort of the
holistic overarching thing isthe companies that have happy
people.
They all say similar things ofwhy they're happy, and so what
kind of things before we getinto some juicy, sort of deeper
research what kind of things doyou think might be off the bat,
(08:34):
motivating and the reasons whyyou stay as a human?
And we've covered some of thestuff.
But now think broader.
Think somebody who wasn'tinterested in research and you
just said, hey, mate, what doyou like about your work'd you
stay?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
it's so difficult because different people are
motivated by different things,and if you are the type of
person who is motivated byrelatively mundane tasks and
these people do exist, yeah,yeah then if you're well paid
for that and you know there's anice culture around you, then
(09:06):
you're perfectly happy.
Right go back there's a two ifs, aren't they?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
yeah, so what is?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
that well paid.
But then then the culture issomething else.
Well, this is something you andI talked a bit about recently
and I know it's a hot topic ofyours.
Culture, I think, is a verybroad and difficult subject to
define, isn't it?
For a large group ofindividuals.
And in fact, I remember one ofour clients years ago saying he
thought the optimum number forany type of company of people
(09:36):
was 147.
He'd worked it out and thoughtthat beyond that it gets a bit
ungainly and a bit big, andbelow that it's very much a
small business.
But 147, he thought, was anexcellent size for a good size
business.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
There was something about it being a maximum snooker
break as well.
I think.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Well, I think that was just a coincidence, but then
there's an idea that 147 youcan create probably a pretty
good positive culture Beyondthat.
You then have to start, youknow, taking into account so
many different types that itbecomes almost impossible.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Let me simplify it.
Let me do the de Bono techniqueof eyes of a child.
In fact, let's go to childrenfor a minute as parents all over
the country, if you are aparent and your child goes to
school, they're either happy atschool or they're not happy at
school.
What's the fundamental thing?
Let's talk about children,because it's the same that makes
a kid happy at school.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Friends, that's it right, yeah, and and also decent
teachers yes, but primarilythey're not being bullied.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
There's enough nice people around them, yeah, sure.
So that is what my researchshows is the people who really
get asked this question of whatmotivates you.
They simply say the peoplethere's enough good eggs about.
I'm stimulated by the people.
I enjoy the way they think theyfundamentally point out that
the people are all right.
This is beyond money.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And actually, if you think about the number of times
you talk to people about yourcareer and places you've worked
and people say things like Iwould love to have a company
with all of the great peopleI've worked with in that company
.
So all those people that I'vegot on with over the years who
were good, bring them into anorganization together and it
(11:26):
would be unbeatable.
Yeah, but then when youactually think about that, who's
to say that that particulargroup of people?
Would actually get on.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You don't know that, but there we are and what's
interesting about the researchI've done is that the way the
company does that, theircontribution primarily, is very
good recruitment.
We get the right fit so thatthe bunch of people here who are
actually quite nice and not barstewards, we get more people to
(11:59):
join them who are like-mindedsouls.
So that's tough becauserecruitment's tough.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Really tough.
I think it must be the toughestit's ever been at the moment.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Well, the consultant I talked to international, very
well thought of consultancybecause some are not, but this
one is consistently is thoughtof as well, really careful over
who they bring in because theywant to be coming in for some
time.
And he also said he doesn't hopskip, skip jump because of
money, because even though hemight earn more with another
(12:28):
consultancy, the people arestimulating, the work is good
and that's enough to retain andmotivate Because once your money
is okay, even in that jokeysketch at the beginning, you
might get another few grand.
But when you're a bit older andthis chap is you know mid-50s,
does it matter?
Chap is you know mid-50s, doesit matter?
The extra grand here and theredoes it matter, you know?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
well, that's similar to a chap who was very, very um
present on linkedin a few yearsago who ran a I think it was
seattle or sanfrancisco baseddot com I don't know what the
kind of company it was, but itwas successful and he was
(13:08):
growing and employing people.
And he realized that to employpeople on entry level salaries
was going to increase his staffturnover, which was going to
increase his cost, which wasgoing to be a pain, and so he
made the executive decision thatevery single person in the
company would be on a minimum of75,000.
(13:29):
Now that's a really bold thingto do, an expensive thing to do,
but of course, it meant thathis staff turnover was 0%
Because they were all amply paidfor what they were doing and
they committed and they weresuccessful as a result.
Now, that's incrediblyenlightened.
When you think about it, that'sa really, really bold thing to
(13:50):
do.
But also, if you're seriousabout growth, it's a statement
of intent, isn't?
Speaker 1 (13:58):
it An interesting experiment that Daniel Pink's
running at the moment with theWashington Post where he says
send in what you think would bea much better world.
And people are sending thingslike double the pay of teachers,
reduce the pay of bankers.
I mean, that's always popular.
Yeah, let's do a bit of historyin this.
(14:19):
So let's talk about Taylorismor Frederick Winslow Taylor,
who's an interesting individual.
So we're talking about thegrowth of production here.
So he's the first person inkind of scientific management
who thinks that workers aresolely motivated by money and
the way to motivate them, retainthem, is to pay them right.
But what he does, which isinteresting and it's still done
(14:41):
in a number of places today, ishe doesn't view employees as
individuals.
He sees them as part of alarger workforce and by getting
them to do their specialisttasks well with the best
possible tools available to dothat, they will do their
individual task.
They'll be paid well enough forit.
Our production will be okay.
Now, this is developed in thelate 1890s and it's gone on
(15:03):
since.
But it loses out to lack ofvariety in the role, and so if
I'm just smacking something onthe head all day, or buffering
something or whatever it mightbe, I begin to go oh, I'd quite
like some variety in my work.
So actually it has a limitedeffect, but Taylorism in
producing productive workforceis quite important.
(15:26):
Henry ford had a very clever wayof motivating, retaining people
, because before people workmuch harder, he more or less
coined the nine to five and saidlook, you can clear off at five
, don't be in before nine.
And everyone right, becauseit's been a bit looser.
I've been turned up at 8, 30out of here.
At six he went no, no, no.
And five days a week forget thesaturdays, very common in the
(15:48):
us to work on saturdays foryears.
So ford thinks he can retainbetter workers by having a sort
of motivating set week.
And then the other thing thatbranches out next, which you've
heard of, is the experimentwhich is generally coined as the
Hawthorne effect.
So these are Harvard BusinessSchool people in the 20s, so
(16:12):
Elton Mayo, fritz Roethlisbergeror Roethlisberger and William
Dixon.
What they do is they go to thisplace called the Hawthorne
Works, which is enormous.
I've looked at maps of it.
It's scarily big WesternElectric Company in Illinois,
45,000 people working there.
Okay, and their experimentshows that the way to motivate
people is just observe them.
(16:34):
Let them know that you'rewatching them and you're going
right.
This is what you're doing.
Pay them attention.
Um, yeah, no, no, no that's not.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
There's got to be more to than just watching,
otherwise it's like big brother,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (16:48):
no, no, talking to them, asking them getting their
input on the work.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah, it's a bit, a bit like brazil.
You know the guy in brazilgetting input from people who
are working on the shop floor interms of decision making and
that sort of thing, no, but thisis give an input into your
working conditions because wewant to make them better.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Let's really value your input.
This is where it goesinteresting, even if they didn't
implement all of the feedbackstuff, because they'd had a
chance to input and beenobserved in their work and felt
someone's getting a much greaterempathy over what they're going
through.
They were more motivated,rather than they don't
understand what we do down here,which is now why people do
(17:25):
annual staff feedback surveysyeah, and pay them more just
before the sunday times bestcompanies to work for comes out,
absolutely, absolutely.
So that's the hawthorne is thatif we spend some time asking,
observing, trying to improvetheir conditions, reviewing
things and making an impact ontheir working environment, we
(17:47):
can motivate and retainemployees.
Okay, I mean, there's so manyI've discounted because there
were so many lovely spinoffs ofthis.
The other thing is, you know wetalk a lot about feeling
purposeful at work, if you like.
So if you take all of that asthe intrinsic stuff is your own
(18:08):
feeling of accomplishment, whatdo companies do to do that?
Well, it is really building onhawthorne.
They recognize your strengths,allow you to do that, praise you
, give you feedback and then allthe extrinsic stuff money and
stuff.
I used to get like and youprobably had this cheap frames
with uh, printed out awards init.
(18:30):
You know the number one sellerof this and they'd hand out
these black employee of themonth.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
It's that sort of yes yes, all that extrinsic stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Some people don't give a monkey's about that no in
a sense it's a sort of sugarspike.
And in fact when I was joking inmy research about that, contact
centers, when we walk aroundthem, sometimes yay, and someone
gets given a massive box ofcelebrations or a load of Krispy
Kremes, it's like let's givethem confectionery rewards yeah,
(18:58):
sugar spike.
And then they're absolutelyhopeless on the phone for hours.
So sometimes short term, youknow.
Today I remember I was in aplace and this woman called
Joanna running it, went and gota bit of Blu-Tack and stuck 20
quid on the board and said thefirst person to make a sale,
come and take that off andthat's yours.
And it's like what's going on?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
here, oh that's so common.
But actually what it does showis that somebody will just
immediately pick up the phoneand make a sale because they
think, well, I'll have that.
And isn't it funny how thebrain clicks in, whereas 30
minutes before that was the lastthing you were thinking yeah.
So I mean, that happened to mebefore.
I had to sell a page ofadvertising by five o'clock that
(19:38):
day, or we were going to pull aproject and I went running into
my director's office sayingI've sold a page, I've sold a
page.
And we were all jumping up anddown and glad handing each other
.
I mean, had he not given usthat deadline, I don't think I
would have bothered.
So it just goes to show thatsometimes these things work.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
The reality is sales training.
This podcast has been createdby Reality Training.
We're a UK-based training andleadership brand who work across
all sectors to improvebusinesses and their people.
Our tagline is SellingCertainty, because that's what
we do Give you more certainty inhow you do things and give you
(20:22):
certainty about how you sellthings.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Find out more at realitytrainingcom let's go into
now some other stuff which isyou know it's quite fun and
we'll just condense it down thejob characteristics model.
You're right you're gonna likethis and I've made up that that
he didn't want to give his firstname neither of the two blokes
working on this because thepeople who did this called
(20:46):
hackman and oldman.
So I'm making out it's genehackman and gary oldman, that
they got a bit bored working onfilm sets and they thought
they'd yeah, they do someoccupational psychology not bad,
it's not a bad, you know switchso think about all the
companies you work with and justtell me where you think you've
had this so skill variety, thedegree to which the job requires
(21:07):
skills and talents.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
So this is a way of keeping you satisfied yeah, I
mean, I've had that in one ortwo jobs, but not okay yep task
identity the degree to which thejob has contributed to a
clearly bigger project.
I think a lot of the companiesI've worked with have been
incredibly siloed, exactly,exactly, incredibly so.
(21:30):
You don't actually know whatyour input is to the overall
success of the organization.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Spot on.
So Gene Hackman and Gary Oldmanbasically say I can't say that
because it's probably the real.
Hackman and Oldman say that ifyou're beavering away and you go
, where's this going?
You don't even know where it'sgoing.
You're not going to feel sogood and motivated and rewarded.
No Task significance, which isslightly different to identity,
is the degree to which the jobaffects the lives or work of
(21:56):
other people.
What I do keeps kids happy inschools.
What I do make sure everyonegets into work on time.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
What I do no, I mean, that's so rare yeah I can't
imagine many commercialorganizations really thinking
about now.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
I talked to tash teacher.
My wife and I often say you'relucky.
I've never called it tarsignificance, but I often say
you know, she was in the pub notlong ago and a load of
ex-students from 15 years agocame up to and started Mrs Blake
, hugging her.
I'm now doing this and Ithought you have extreme impact.
These people go off and doother things and you've really
helped them.
(22:32):
Again you have that, but mostof us, you know, we don't see
that impact.
You've got real.
I'll now call it tasksignificance.
So the next one that keeps youmotivated and satisfied is
autonomy.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Well, we've done several podcasts on this subject
.
Well, tell the listeners whatthat is.
Well, the freedom to makedecisions and to decide and not
have to keep on referring tomanagers all the time, or just
check with my manager.
The moment you stop doing thatand you make a choice, and that
choice will be backed by theorganization, then you get
growth and development and youbecome, you know, master of your
(23:05):
own game.
How many?
Speaker 1 (23:07):
people a week are reality trainers coming across
who you know?
Variance in autonomy isn'tthere.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
It's so difficult sometimes, because what you get
is new people who've never donesomething before who start doing
it.
They need to be taught and needto learn their jobs up to a
point, but as soon as you can,you need to try and give them a
level of autonomy where they canthen start making choices,
(23:36):
because they start adaptingtheir own styles and that sort
of thing.
If it's, too, that's going tocontribute to some of the things
you talked about earlier.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
So the next one is task feedback.
That's the degree to which theemployee is provided with clear,
specific, detailed informationabout the effectiveness of what
they've done.
It's quite simple, isn't it?
But you say well done, you knowyou did that thing earlier.
The architect's taken it downto the bank and they love the
design and the way you laid itout means that we're going to
build the bank, or whatever.
How many people have given that?
(24:04):
So I thought as a thing togoogle the job characteristics
model.
You can map that against youand say what are we doing as a
business to create skill variety, task identity, significance,
autonomy and feedback?
It's not bad, is it?
Speaker 3 (24:15):
it is quite good.
I think the problem withfeedback is that these days we
try wrongly in my view to givemostly positive feedback and if
anything negative happens, it'seither ignored or forgotten or
sort of scotched over and peopledon't do much about it.
And I think what that does?
(24:36):
It means it makes people verynervous about making mistakes
and I think there's a terriblefear of making mistakes these
days.
People need to make mistakes tolearn lessons, to develop, to
grow.
Somebody once said to me amanager I worked with years ago.
He said if you've got somebodywho's making lots of mistakes,
it means they're really trying,and sometimes we miss that.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
I wholly agree.
And we'll cut straight to oneof the people I spoke to, danny
hoskins, who said as a salesmanager he's got some very young
people coming into the the beerselling trade and they're
making mistakes and he says thisis great because then we can
sit down and talk about whatthey did or didn't do.
But they're keen, so that hefinds they're quite motivated to
be given autonomy to try things.
(25:21):
Sometimes they're not preparedenough.
Sometimes they do a big pitchbut forget to do the tasting, or
it can be anything.
But I absolutely agree with you.
I think if you've got a rigidenvironment, the only thing I
don't well, it's not that Idon't necessarily agree with,
but I think it's slightlydifferent.
People are afraid of harshfeedback, but I think what I see
happening in some environmentsis they don't do any of the
(25:41):
difficult conversation.
Then suddenly the individualthey're meant to manage is
suddenly on whatever they callthese things pips, or yeah,
performance plans so they've notdone the feedback and then it's
go straight to I'm sorry, whatit's?
first time I've heard it, yeah,but I've got all the evidence
now.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah how much effort and time's gone into that, yeah,
to get to that point.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I've got a really difficult employee in my team.
Have you told them?
No, I'm watching them.
They're still on probation.
Why don't you try and help, youknow?
I find that odd it's poormanagement.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah, and that comes back to the original thing that
if you've got a bad manager,you'll know they're bad, because
any negative feedback they'llhold until it's too late.
That's bad management.
Yeah, you know why didn't wetalk about this three months ago
?
Well, so you spend all thattime watching me make mistakes,
watching me get things wrong,and watch me being less
effective, rather than coachingme or developing me to be better
(26:33):
, which might mean it's personal.
They just want to get rid ofyou, absolutely right, which is
well.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
These days it's not so easy to do Something right,
which is well.
These days it's not so easy todo something else right.
Let's go to another bit of uhtheory.
Frederick herzberg with histwo-factor theory of motivation.
Now this is fun.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
I mean, I can just see all our listeners now
desperately googling oh, theywill be go through these.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
It's just brilliant I've had to select some of the
stuff in this.
Yeah, he says that in a companyyou've got a bunch of people
called satisfiers and you've gotanother bunch who are
dissatisfiers I mean don't beperfect so many ways.
Couldn't you, yeah, okay thedifference is is your satisfiers
.
They're going around andeverything they do is associated
(27:14):
with job satisfaction, okay.
And then the other lot,interestingly, interestingly,
the dissatisfiers.
Their motivation is associatedwith hygiene or maintenance,
right, so keeping it as it is,keeping it clean, orderly, tidy,
that's what you're doing overthere.
We don't want to do any of that.
So your dissatisfiers want thework environment to be right,
(27:38):
right, whereas all thesatisfiers are going on about
doing it right and motivatingand sort of really achieving
stuff.
As, whereas you've got allthese dissatisfiers going around
, going, hang on a minute,what's the policy?
Can we follow that?
And if you've got too manydissatisfiers in the company and
you're a satisfier, you'regoing to go flipping.
Oh, this lot just want to runthis as a kind of system.
(28:01):
I'm out of here.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
It's such great language and um, we've just got
to be so careful well, I cantalk about companies at bus, my
grandfather's business.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
They're a manufacturer making parts for
cars and stuff.
Okay, yeah and as a kid Iworked in the factory.
I remember on my first day thisbell went and I carried on
doing what I was doing, whichwas going through old purchase
ledger copies and we could throwout everything from five years.
I think the law has changed nowand this bloke walked past me
(28:33):
and he was about five years old.
I mean, what are you doing?
I went, what?
am I doing yeah, what are youdoing?
I went I'm just, uh, doing the.
Yeah, I can see what you'redoing, but what are you doing?
Doing?
And I went I don't understand.
I was about 17.
I went I'm just no, I know whatyou're doing, but what are you
doing?
And he wouldn't let me awaywith it and he wouldn't give me
any more help with the question.
(28:54):
And then someone put their armon his shoulder and said Gary,
leave him alone, that'sMichael's grandson.
And he went oh, all right, buthe didn't care about that.
He went.
So what he said what are youdoing?
The bell has gone.
He did not want me to beworking a minute longer.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
He thought I was insane and all I was doing was
one extra box, so I didn't haveto look at that box in the
morning.
That's slightly fascistic.
Look at timekeeping andunionizing.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
You could say oh yeah , there were a number of people
who were out of there on thebell.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, okay, but then that's also similar, though, to
what Steve Jobs used to do.
So Steve Jobs at Apple wouldwander along the corridor, see
someone come the other direction, say hello there, what do you
do?
And if that person couldn'tgive a succinct and specific
answer as to the value they weredelivering to Apple, that
person wasn't going to be aroundfor any longer, because Steve
(29:44):
Jobs' perspective was that youshould know what value you are
delivering to this organization.
You should know what yourpurpose is.
How do you connect that to that?
What are you saying?
Is that the bloke?
Because what you could havesaid, had you been a bit older
and a bit more experienced, isthat I'm making my life easier
for tomorrow by efficientlyhaving this thing done on time,
and the guy can't argue withthat, because that's you
(30:06):
sticking he may have done well.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Well, you, you don't need to, or so you may have come
back with something else.
There we are.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
So back to your original point about the purpose
of someone, what it is they'rethere to do, and I think there's
lots of organizations who haveemploy many people who have no
real idea what their purpose is,what their value is, where
they're delivering any value theline that I think sums it up
from hertzberg and all thisresearch.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
He says this, and I'll read it, because I wrote
this bit down providing hygieneand maintenance needs for people
prevents dissatisfaction butwill never contribute to
satisfaction because, it's abasic requirement for life but
some people are sticklers andthey want all of that, so they
want it to run.
And funny, I was listening to aneconomist the other day and
(30:51):
your comment about managersshould maybe be doing this
Veblen.
This economist said managersdon't ever want overproduction,
they really want to controlproduction.
Veblen loved industrialists andentrepreneurs because he said
they were creative and trying tomake products and help the
country grow.
But your managers were the bestone in the world.
(31:11):
They wanted to limit productionand control it.
Because he would possibly leanto say a number of them are
dissatisfiers, let's run it inthis way.
They're not leaders, they'remanagers of things.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Well, that's interesting.
Interesting, isn't it?
Because I think you could alsosay that we've worked with sales
teams and sales managers whodon't want their individuals to
go way over target.
What are you, yeah, what areyou doing?
don't go way over target putthat in the in the box for next
month.
Yeah, no, but I can earn morecommission.
No, no, no, no, you don't wantto do that.
(31:44):
Yeah, you've hit your target.
Now let's just make life easierfor the next month.
Now, that's classic stuff,where what you're actually
saying is let's not go too farover, then we won't earn
anything and the targets will bethrown up.
It's such a negative way towork.
It's such a demotivating way towork.
Why not motivate people to makeas much money as possible,
because we're scared thatthey're going to do better than
(32:05):
us and make more money than us?
Speaker 1 (32:07):
either they'll do better than us and make more
than us, or, as a manager, I'llhave a harder job trying to
achieve the new targets that weset after this totally totally,
which is actuallycounterproductive ultimately.
That's, that's what veblen goeson about.
So, in a sense, don't just cutout a layer of management almost
cut out management.
You talked about culture.
(32:27):
I think one thing that came upfrom conversation with Jeremy
working with a growingaccountancy business was that he
thinks one of the attractionsand this is a person who's had
30 years as his own entrepreneur, now he's working in an
organization to become anemployee.
So I only spoke to people whoare technically employees
entrepreneur and now he'sworking in an organization
become an employee.
So I only spoke to people whoare technically employees.
He said what's very attractiveis all the directors work in the
(32:48):
business, not just on thebusiness.
Now that is counter to you and Iwhen we started the business
and we meet people who say, asyou're growing, you've got to
stop working in the business,you've got to start working on
the business.
And we understand the lovelyplay on the two prepositions,
but the point being is thatwhat's attractive is you've got
a senior director who might alsobe an accountant and in the in
(33:11):
the booking system, might findhimself sitting next to a very
junior person and they see themworking with customers and
clients.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
I think all of that becomes much harder the larger
organization is and they'rebecoming larger.
If you're, if you're at yourclass at 147, that's eminently
possible.
I would say it.
Once you get to two, three,four, a thousand people, then
you've got a much harder way ofworking in the business.
(33:38):
I'm there are directors who dodo that and they burn out, they
can, can't let go of stuff andthey want to be in control, and
then all of that stuff takesplace.
But I think the size of thebusiness dictates that
specifically.
It's interesting because Ithink you and I there's bits
that we enjoy doing, that wewould want to continue to do in
(34:00):
the business, but there's bitsthat we're also happy to let
other people oh yeah do, and soI think maybe that changes as
your career changes.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
If you're in an organization long enough, then
you would imagine there would bea shift but also can you
imagine the extreme culturewhere directors in inverted
commas senior people, whateveryou want to them don't really do
any of the work that culturemight be?
We're selling windows and doorshere and you guys have no idea
(34:30):
about that, and yet you know soyou might.
The further away you get fromthe customer, as John Seddon
used to say, the further you getaway from the customer, the
less you understand what thebusiness is like today.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
I think you see that in so many things.
There's that program in the USwhere CEOs go undercover into
their own business and see whatit's like.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
They all are shocked and amazed, which means they
haven't really been close to itand you just think well, what
the hell have you been doing?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
for the last 10 years then, because if it's taken
this for you to realize thereality of what it's like, then
clearly you've been so detachedfrom what you're doing that it's
almost as though the businesshas functioned despite your
position rather than throughyour position, and I think
that's an interesting note.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Let's talk briefly about the NHS.
So a friend who's at the NHSvery experienced one of the
things that I think has changedwith an organisation like that
how do you motivate and keeppeople in the nhs?
And if you think about peoplewe know who are in the nhs,
other people we know, it's a,you know, a huge beast with
trust.
So a couple of things came outof covid.
Is they now have to assesspeople much more closely, give
(35:39):
feedback on how they are andwork out.
In fact we should just accessher language.
You know the contentment andthe structure.
They've tightened up on a lotof, if you like, the pathways of
communication, so they'retrying to track that.
On top of that is the recentpay awards, of course, so people
are feeling that they'reearning a bit more.
There's this system called thegratitude card so staff can send
(36:03):
and thank other to staff andother departments and that's
audited.
So your department is verygrateful to another department,
you say thank you and they audithow much of that thanks is
going around.
I found that fascinating so youknow there's sort of a lot more
on kindness and stuff, but Ithink again, the thing that
stood out for her is theextraordinary teamwork and the
(36:28):
appreciation and that is whatmakes it an efficient and
productive workforce underextremely challenging times.
And your point, coming in asshe ends her message with me, is
it's now evolved to be so muchbigger than ever envisaged.
Finances can't match it.
How do we continue to researchand innovate?
(36:49):
You know that's what makes ithard, but for her it's working
with brilliant people who are,who are supportive and kind,
right, which comes back to early.
You know the kid at school ifyou're with enough good people,
you're happier okay.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
so we're going to have a break now and when we
come back we're going to look atsome other ways that many
organizations will motivate andretain their staff.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Created by Reality Training, this podcast is one of
our resources provided to ourbusiness audience and our
clients.
For access to more material,check out our website,
realitytrainingcom, for links toYouTube, films, books and many
other resources.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
So if we simplify you know we had some fun with
looking at research and sort ofthe history of it you're really
looking at salary bonus.
Bonus may not be money, so youmight have organizations that
say, go and stay in one of ourcottages okay we'll give you
this at the end of thediscretionary mandatory, but
(38:02):
it's often quite loose forpeople that aren't salespeople,
that's a challenge Flexibility.
So one of the ways that's comeout of the hybrid world that
we're now in is a lot of peopleare a little bit more happy in
the work because there'sflexibility of how and where
they do it.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Well, this is an up and coming topic that we're
going to be looking at on thepodcast the idea of hybrid
working and digital nomads.
I have done a little bit ofresearch, which says that lots
of new starters are expecting tobe able to work in a hybrid
fashion from day one of theircareer, which I think is again
quite a new thing.
But maybe we shouldn't be toosurprised.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Well, what's interesting about general
flexibility?
If you think about if you watchany sort of classic film or
comedy or anything it could evenbe typical jack lemon film, if
you like you'll see him gettinghis mac and going into a
building to work it could be abank, an insurance company, for
(39:03):
example and the whole thing is abuilding and it has levels and
hierarchies and departments.
And what's fun in the buildingIs there a social night out?
But that kind of idea that theflexibility comes within the
building is now changed.
The flexibility comes in.
How often do you go into thebuilding, see your teams and
again?
We look forward to your podcastwhen you expand on this.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Well, just you mentioning that made me think
about the series Mad Men, whichwas very popular about 10 years
ago, which was set in the 50s,started in the 50s and in that
everybody was in the officebefore nine.
Everybody, everyone's assistantwas in the office before nine.
Everybody, everyone's assistantwas in the office before them.
(39:46):
They would never arrive aftertheir boss, so that was a huge
hierarchical thing.
But people's lives existedwithin the office.
Everybody smoked in the office,everybody drank in the office,
everyone had their lunch in theoffice, everything took place in
that office all day long.
It was like a whole life tookplace and then everything else
(40:08):
was superfluous.
Actually, it came second tothat time spent in the office
and that was deep-rooted for awhile.
But of course now it's shiftedcompletely.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Well, companies.
I was in an interesting biginternational organization
yesterday and they're makingquite a lot of the building
being bream b-r-e-a-m I think itis an acronym meaning it's
built in such a way with suchecological credentials.
So martha, my daughter, who'sjust started uni, she was
feeding back to me dad, we'vegot a bream building here and I
(40:38):
looked online and it'sextraordinary building the way
it does stuff with water,everything, so that I don't know
how many people would be.
I'm happier to go into work nowbecause there's a bream
building there.
But what companies are doing is, before the pandemic they were,
you know, large companies likefacebook, where I had a friend
gyms, restaurants, cafes,showers all of that was built.
(41:02):
Now companies are going that'sstandard, that it's not
innovative, it's we've got tohave that anyway.
What else?
Speaker 3 (41:09):
bowls of fruit.
Nice food?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
it's not just like the ad agency with a football
table.
What else do we?
Speaker 3 (41:15):
need to do.
But then, ironically, all ofthat will be in place and
there'll be a huge room full ofpeople, some on higher up stools
, working on higher up tables,some on stand up desks, some
sitting in a team.
And yet now, more and more, Ialso see in the corner of the
office a booth, a soundproofbooth, not cheap, and you go in
(41:46):
there.
If a you want to work insilence, you actually need to go
into a little booth and pullthe door shut so you can focus
on something, or you do yourprivate little meeting in there,
or your zoom meeting in there.
And that's another shift wherewe all used to work together in
a team and the hubbub was partof the scenario, but now you can
take yourself off to yourlittle booth and focus there for
a bit so the only booths againI'm thinking cinematically, for
(42:08):
this is where I go often is theonly booths that were like that
with the telephone booths, sure?
Speaker 1 (42:14):
so if you needed a private conversation, you go in
the telephone booth yeah, andthere were stand-up ones with
the stuff that came around theirheads, yeah, so otherwise it's
the busy office and you've gotto just live with it by the
other.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Tandem is that you get organizations, have an
entire company on one bigelongated desk going down a big
room so the directors are at oneend and everybody else is at
the other and then you just moveup and down the desk depending
on who you want to talk to, andthat's another, you know,
concept of we all work together.
(42:44):
We're all part of one big teamand the fact that you're just
broken up in teams as you godown is one of those things so
let's talk about gen zmillennials.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
So one of the other things that motivates retain
them is that we are far moresupportive with their mental
health yeah good so that'schanged hugely I mean if we know
we've got children that havecome out of all that period and
how hard it is for them.
The other thing that comes upjust in general research,
talking to people, is I'mmotivated as long as this
(43:13):
relatively constantcommunication and I know what
the hell's going on, and somecompanies are good at sharing
success.
So if you take large companiesthat actually employ people and
we know people who have theseinternal marketing communication
jobs, but let's know about someof the good stuff we're doing
Can we share that please?
Because that's motivating toknow that you've won this or
(43:37):
we've just done this.
Some companies are very poor.
Did we not tell you that wejust won that?
No, and that goes back toOldman and Hackman's thing about
(44:01):
what's the tar significance youknow if, and it also comes out
of the pandemic what alsomotivates me to stay with an
organization, because they letme do something that before the
pandemic I had to have a rarecondition or you would not let
me do this.
Dogs, well done.
How did you get?
Speaker 3 (44:20):
that so quickly, because the pandemic everyone
got everyone got a dog.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, well done so that's it.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
And in fact, one of our clients now allows dogs in,
yes, well, and my wife.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
So her school is full of hounds.
And Axel was in yesterday and Isaid what did the kids do?
I said how many kids do youthink stroked him and fussed him
and stuff?
She said OK, I'll work, work itout.
How many do you think?
It is over a hundred, correct,over a hundred kids fussed him?
I said a hundred.
She said yeah, and he just sortof greeted all of them and some
(44:51):
he would lift his leg.
Can you scratch my tummy please?
And a hundred kids now that's ahundred.
Interactions with children tomake them feel better, that's
incredible good and very good.
You don't have to organize childcare, don't have to do anything
else like that.
The only other thing that issort of requires more
understanding and stuff is ifyou were to sort of lift your
(45:13):
job to be part of a higherpurpose and you were
contributing to the greater good, you're likely to be motivated
to retain.
So if you work with anorganization that is really
trying to empower a community,that can be very, very
(45:33):
motivating, that you're part ofsomething that is quite
innovative and the wholecommunity benefit.
It promotes health and a goodenvironment.
It's very hard to do so.
Some of these sort of higherplaying areas, if you like.
Very few companies achieve that.
But then if you look atsomething like the National
Trust that relies on volunteersor you look at charities that
(45:55):
relies on volunteers, what'sinteresting is they retain their
employees in inverted commasbecause they're not paid,
because they feel so purposeful.
So they feel what I do allowspeople to walk around this
ancient building and I tend tothe grounds where I stub the
tickets here or or it could be.
I work in this hospice shop.
(46:16):
More and more research showsthat if somebody feels they're
contributing to the greater good, they're likely to hang around
on low wages or even volunteers,so that's quite interesting as
well.
That's about it, really.
The only other thing that Ifound quite interesting was you
know that classic about, hey,talent management, let's get
more A players, and all that Iread a lovely article about hang
(46:38):
on to your B players, and thatthere's far more B players in
your organization than a's.
And as you said yourself, youknow these mavericks going over
target, whoa, whoa, whoa.
You two, slow down.
You know this.
I've got eight others.
Can you, can you not overperform too much?
Speaker 3 (46:54):
that's the simon sinek thing in the navy seals in
the us.
If you are a a b player effect,but with high integrity, high
trust, you're more likely to bemade an officer and be more
trusted than someone who's amaverick but low trust, who's
really amazing.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
And we like films like that, don't we?
We're the maverick.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
I think that's a really good one, and actually
you could argue that a wholecompany of b players will be yes
, and, and if they've got highabsolutely, and and the very
simple thing is, the way tomotivate, retain them is simply
this get to know them andappreciate them, because if
you're constantly praising youra's but we've talked about this
(47:39):
on another episode your a's aredisloyal bonders and out for
themselves.
They're gonna jump to anothercompany in two years and then
another one in two years.
I was talking to somebody theother day about a job that we're
not going to do and I lookedthem up on linkedin before we
spoke.
They are 15 years younger thanme and on their 27th job and I
(47:59):
just thought whoa, what's goingon here?
so anyway, lots of ways to tryand motivate and retain
employees.
By all means go back and have alook at some of the fun models
and stuff.
But primarily, if you can tryand recruit people who will fit
in and be kind and listen andask and praise and be part of
the greater whole, then you'vegot a good chance of holding on
(48:23):
to them.
If there's poor communication,no one knows what they're doing
and you think it's all aboutmoney, then you're pretty
outdated really.
Speaker 3 (48:30):
Well, thank you for that, Jeremy.
That's been very, veryinteresting, and I should be
looking up some of those nameswhen we finish Hackman and
Oldman.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Absolutely.
Thank you for listening.
If you think a friend mightenjoy this on a car journey, why
don't you forward it to themthrough whichever listening
service you or they have?
If you'd like to get in touchwith us, you can do that.
Give us some feedback.
But thank you very much forlistening.
Cheers for now.
Catch you on another one soon.
Bobby bye, thank you.
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