July 8, 2025 • 31 mins
Sales managers & salespeople: Be honest - have you ever assumed a customer wouldn’t go for the higher-priced option so you left it out altogether?
You might be losing more sales than you think. It’s easy to filter choices for customers based on your own biases or assumptions, often without realising you’re doing it. But when you take the decision away from the buyer, you limit their options – and potentially their satisfaction.
From choosing the “cheap” option on a customer’s behalf to skipping over premium choices because “they won’t go for that”, this mindset is surprisingly common. In this episode, we share real stories (think chocolates, shoe shops, and scruffy car buyers) and explore the seven key psychological biases that influence how salespeople present – or don’t present - choice.
You’ll hear how things like time pressure, financial worries, stereotyping, and disloyal bonding can all affect how we sell, often working against the very outcome we’re aiming for.
Most importantly, we’ll share practical ways overcome these habits – helping you build trust, offer the full picture, and give your customers the confidence to choose what’s right for them.
Listen now for a fresh take on an old problem, and ask yourself, when was the last time you made a decision for your customer?
For more info, free resources, useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
Reality Training - Selling Certainty
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeremy Blake (00:14):
happy, sunny day to you, bobby greetings from a
very sunny east sussex.
I hope it's lovely where youare.
Oh yes, it is in beautiful boxon what will be the warmest day
of the year so far.
We're looking at 29 degreessomewhere in the UK today.
Wow.
So, that's nice.
Bob Morrell (00:32):
I'm in shorts.
Are you Just to give the?
Jeremy Blake (00:34):
listener a visual image.
I am in shorts and I shall betraveling in shorts later, which
I never thought I'd be doing onthe 1st of May.
But there we are, and tell thelisteners where you're traveling
to.
I'm going to Berlin.
I'm going to be doing somenomading in Berlin, so that's
(00:56):
fun On the 1st of May in Berlin.
By the way, it's a bank holiday, whatever day it falls on, and
they have street parties,everyone's dancing in the parks
all day on the 1st of May.
I think we're missing out.
Bob Morrell (01:04):
So you are arriving for street parties?
Jeremy Blake (01:07):
Well, I don't know .
I'm arriving very late.
I don't know whether we'll bestreet partying.
But yeah, nice festiveatmosphere, I hope Great and a
nice weekend in the beer gardens.
Yeah, I mean, what's the versethat could happen, oh very good,
very good, very good, andactually that is a possible
(01:28):
theme of today's podcast.
We are looking at aninteresting subject which has
dogged us as a sales trainingorganization for 25 years,
hasn't it, jay?
20, 25, 20, 20, 25 years, 20,25, 25 years, and it's very hard
actually to come up with a termfor it.
(01:48):
I've actually done someresearch for what this thing
we're going to be talking aboutis called the mental condition.
Well, it is a mental conditionbecause we call it taking the
decision away from the customer.
Okay, now, we'll come up withlots of examples of that in a
minute.
Bob Morrell (02:11):
You could also say making the decision for the
customer.
That's another way of lookingat it.
Jeremy Blake (02:13):
I've got some others Removing choice, removing
choice from the customer Samething You're making the decision
that there is no choice anymore.
The term that I've come up withon this is that this is a
cognitive bias.
It is a brain-based bias whichis based on a number of
different things and I've gotseven things that it could be
based on but essentially it isthe salesperson's own subjective
(02:39):
belief, based on theirexperience or their own
preferences, that makes them dothis.
Bob Morrell (02:45):
Let us go above and just make it really clear.
If you're listening to thispodcast and you either lead an
organization that is selling aproduct or a service or you
yourself sell a product or aservice, what Bob and I are
going to discuss is you're intothe conversation and let's just
say you have a gold, silver andbronze option and the customer
is considering these threelevels products, whatever and
(03:09):
you would say I think the bronzewill work adequately for you.
I think that's really what youneed Now, in whichever language
you like, but you have removedthe silver and the gold.
This is what we're talkingabout you as the salesperson, or
the leader of salespeople,creating some kind of culture
(03:29):
where you are taking decisionsaway from customers.
And there's a lot of reasonswhy you might do it to get the
sale in, to speed it up, to gethome, to get to the pub, and
that list is very long.
Jeremy Blake (03:41):
Let's give a couple of simple examples.
Many, many years ago we weregoing to the south of France for
some work and we were on aplane heading south and you were
sitting there and listeners maynot be aware that you are a bit
(04:04):
of a chocolate guy, not a bitand the trolley came along and
there was a selection ofchocolates available, from your
standard Kit Kats, twixes, thosesorts of things, all the way up
to what I think anybody wouldterm a luxury item, godiva
(04:25):
chocolates.
And you had the little menu outand you were looking at the
different things that wereavailable and she came along
would you like any snacks?
And you held up the thing andyou said what are these Godiva
chocolates?
And she looked at you and said,oh, they're really expensive.
Here you go have a Twix.
And threw you a Twix.
(04:45):
Yeah, yeah, okay, why can't Ihave Godiva chocolates?
And she looked at you and said,oh, they're really expensive.
Bob Morrell (04:48):
Here you go, have a Twix and threw you a Twix?
Jeremy Blake (04:50):
Yeah, okay, why can't I have Godiva?
I mean, anyone knowing you oreven looking at you could
probably make an assumption thatGodiva would be your starting
point.
You would prefer to go up fromGodiva, I think?
Bob Morrell (04:59):
Yeah, you know I had already made mental
connections between BamburyCross, a naked lady riding the
horse.
I was wedded to getting aconnectivity with Godiva and
that was denied me theindividual judging by appearance
(05:26):
.
Jeremy Blake (05:26):
Now, I did a lot of research into what that is.
We can all remember times wheremaybe people have judged us by
our appearance.
When we go into a shop or a carshowroom or something like that
, um, we don't look our best andthe person serving us judges us
accordingly.
What this is.
What is is a superficialjudgment based on how you look.
(05:47):
I think that probably a thirdof sales that are missed are
probably missed because thesalesperson was rude by making a
superficial judgment of thatindividual and the individual
thought right, I'll take mybusiness elsewhere.
Bob Morrell (06:09):
Yeah, I mean the other one, that which I really
want to make the point early onin this conversation.
It is detrimental to thesuccess of you and your business
by doing this.
Yes, and I can tell you thestory of how a small shoe shop
in Buckingham eventually folded.
They sold a very small range ofmen's shoes and a very small
range of ladies' shoes and didrepairs.
I think it had been there forsomething like 70 years and I
(06:33):
would go in there and try andfrequent it to buy shoes a bit
like the fast show, isn't it?
Get my shoes in Winslow.
You remember this story, don'tyou, bob?
I said, hi, I need a, do younot?
No, I need a pair of blackshoes.
And she said, yes, we stock twobrands in the black shoe We've
got Churches and Lokes.
(06:54):
And she looked at me and wentI'll get you some Lokes.
What size Now?
The Churches, I think even then, were 220 a pair and the Lokes
were about 65 quid.
Jeremy Blake (07:06):
No lokes would have been about 100.
Bob Morrell (07:08):
I don't think they were then 75, I seem to remember
yeah.
Okay, now I did it.
I bought the lokes because Itried them on.
They fitted.
Why couldn't I have thechurches?
And this is pre-Prada days whenthey bought them.
But that's another classic.
As Bob said, assumption basedon me, I was even wearing a suit
(07:29):
, ridiculous, superficialjudgment.
If you continually sell yourbronze packages and we work on
this mindset with clients we say, if you're standing on a podium
table, everyone in this contactcenter, everyone on the field
sales, get on the podium.
How many of you are bronzesellers, silver sellers and gold
sellers?
That entire culture of thatstore was selling bronze, which
means the average order value isreduced, which means the
(07:52):
profitability, the margin and soon.
Jeremy Blake (07:55):
Because, as we know, if you're selling bronze
you must sell volume and in asmall market town, the volume of
lokes and churches going outthere was not enough they needed
and I I'm just so pleased thatwe're sticking with the middle
class analogies, because that'sreally I've got one, that I've
got one that's slightly,slightly less middle class, okay
, please.
Um, so I used to work with achap who was very smart during
(08:18):
the week at work, but atweekends he would kick back and
just dress very scruffilybecause he thought I don't need
to make the effort.
And he got a back and justdress very scruffily because he
thought I don't need to make theeffort.
And he got a job and he wasgiven a car allowance which
allowed him to go and buy a carrather than have a company car.
So he walked into his local Iwon't say who, it was a local
(08:38):
dealership of a major car brandand they did exactly what you've
just described.
They took one look at him andhe inquired about this car that
was there.
And they did exactly what you'vejust described they took one
look at him and he inquiredabout this car that was there,
and they made it very clear thatthey didn't think that he was
able to buy this car and thatthey didn't want to spend time
serving him, based on exactlyhow he looked.
So he said okay.
(08:59):
So he then left that dealershipand went four miles down the
road to another dealership ofthe exact same brand that were a
few miles further away from hishome.
He then went in and bought thecar from that dealership.
Six months later he took hiscar to the nearest dealership
for a service because it wasjust more convenient, and the
(09:23):
exact same salesperson came upto him and said excuse me, sir,
I'm just wondering why youbought that car from the one
that was four miles away ratherthan us.
He said yeah, I'll tell youexactly why.
I didn't buy it from you.
Because when I came in here youwere really rude to me and
judged me by the way I looked,and that completely put me off.
So I bought it elsewhere sothere you go, classic example of
(09:47):
how you can miss a sale byjudging absolutely, but it's
also happening in the volumeareas.
Bob Morrell (09:51):
Um, you know, behind a bar, someone says
you've got a lager.
They just pull the tap of thelowest price lager rather than
maybe allowing the customers todo it.
So I also think that it'spertinent to discuss this now,
because we are on projects rightnow and a lot of people we're
working with are saying it's atough economy, we're living in a
(10:14):
challenging economic climate,cost of living crisis, all these
terms.
Well, you are exacerbating that.
If you continually go outselling your bronzes and you
will actually earn less.
The company will turn over less, and a lot of it is your
mindset, and that's what I wantto sort of explore.
The thing that I could say atthe outset, based on choice and
(10:39):
I've got a nice little studyfrom Stanford is that if you
make the choice, you will feelmore satisfied and loyal and
with a sense of control.
You mean the customer makes thechoice.
Jeremy Blake (10:55):
The customer, yeah .
Bob Morrell (10:56):
You, you, as the customer.
Jeremy Blake (10:57):
Because if the customer makes the choice, they
will be in more control.
Bob Morrell (11:00):
And more satisfied because I haven't done it.
And the bit I want to major onis the perspective is not yours
as the salesperson, it's thecustomer's perspective.
And yet, as we know from ourwork, we spend a lot of time
talking about how theperspective of the salesperson,
the customer service person, thesales leader, obscures the
(11:22):
vision and they can't believethat someone else might want
this, afford this, and so theyremove that decision so I've all
.
Jeremy Blake (11:30):
I've also got um, seven reasons why a salesperson
does it would do this.
Great, let's have those.
So the first reason is time.
Okay, it is short-termism.
So I'm focusing on closingsales rather than understanding
needs, which actually you couldput the whole of sales training
(11:53):
into.
If you understood more needs,you would sell more.
If you're not bothering tounderstand the needs and you're
just focusing on closing, you'renot going to be able to offer
the full range of stuff you havebecause you're going after a
sale range of stuff you havebecause you're going after a
sale.
And also, time is believing thatif you take away the decision
(12:14):
from the customer, that willsave time in making a sale,
which maximizes your time to domore sales.
So there's that thing about ifsomeone's going to take a long
time over this.
I haven't got time for that.
I've got a target to hit.
I'll go after more short-termsales options.
So time is the first one.
That links to number two.
(12:36):
Really, which all of that timestuff is really about laziness
Laziness of not wanting toengage in the conversation.
I can't be bothered, I'll gofor the easiest sale.
Now, number three is reallytough, but we have to say it
Racial stereotyping.
Bob Morrell (12:55):
Which is judgment, but on a deeper level, yeah.
Jeremy Blake (12:58):
Yeah, you just look at an entire race of
humanity and think, oh, they'renever going to buy.
Bob Morrell (13:03):
Or a regional accent, absolutely, or anything.
We've experienced this, yeah.
Jeremy Blake (13:08):
Yeah.
Then you've got number four,which is manipulating the
customer because you have atarget to hit.
So there's five differentoptions, but I'm being targeted
on this one, so I'm just goingto offer you that and not give
you the choice of the others.
So that's manipulation.
Now, number five is one we'vetalked about a lot and it's our
(13:30):
big thing disloyal bonding.
Yeah, okay, it is.
It is me going.
Look, you don't need any ofthese other things.
Let me put my arm around youmetaphorically and become your
friend and sell you this thing,because it's easier and I'm lazy
and all those other things.
But I can now do it in adisloyal way, which makes you
think that we are conspiringagainst my organization in some
(13:52):
odd way.
Number six is superficialjudgment by appearance, which
we've just talked about, andseven is really the hardest one
of all.
You are actively conning peopleand that's why you take the
decision away, because byconning them, you know that this
choice they're making gives youthe biggest advantage.
Bob Morrell (14:11):
Well, I won't say who, but do you remember I was
with an organization where wewere paid on the volume of sales
, not the value of sales?
Oh yes, they did a three-monthwhatever you want to call it
drive and said look guys, we'reup against it.
We want to float.
We need customer numbers, notprofitability.
We'll pay you this.
(14:31):
And one woman in my team soldthe lowest priced thing, yeah,
yeah, and her bonus was morethan the value of what she'd
sold Absolutely Brilliant.
The thing I thought I'd sharewith you is I mean, just
steering from that is too manychoices.
Too many choices derails thecustomer's journey as well.
(14:53):
So if you, you know, that'sslightly sort of playing with it
If you've got a number ofchoices, some salespeople think
if I remove those choices, I'llstill get a sale because they're
going to be bombarded.
So if I shorten that Now, whatare their names?
Leeper and Stanford.
(15:14):
I think I've got their namescorrect.
I'll check that in a second.
Hold on, check my notes.
I'll go back to that.
A couple of Stanford people.
You'll love this.
They ran something with Jam andsomething with essays.
So the first thing with jam wasthey created two stands.
One stand had six choices ofgourmet jam and the other stand
(15:39):
had 24 choices of gourmet jam.
When the customer was providedwith those, which stand sold
more jam, the one with sixchoices or the one with 24?
Six, yeah, by a staggering 27%higher in sales.
(16:01):
And the thing about that is, Ithink some salespeople think
there's lots of choice here.
I'll take the decision away,reduce it down and push it,
whereas actually six there's waymore than gold, silver and
bronze in six.
Now the other weird thing isthey based it on essays that you
could buy.
(16:23):
So you'd buy an essay as anacademic essay and you could use
that as a learning to improveyour own essay.
When they reduced the amount ofessay titles, not only did they
sell more essays, but thequality of the essays that the
students then wrote were higher.
So rather than you can look atall these essays you can buy, oh
(16:43):
, flip, don't know where tostart.
Now the point being is that youoften, I think, think there's so
much choice here, I'll reducethe choice down.
That is correct scientificallythat a reduction in choice helps
.
But where you then haveoverstepped your mark as a
salesperson is you've removedall of the flipping choice and
(17:04):
so you've no longer got thatcustomer enjoying making the
choice.
The spinoff of that that Ithought was interesting.
Do you know when we used to?
We have salespeople sometimeswho are training and they say
one of the methods I use is Isay I use that brand, or I drive
that car, or I've got one ofthese myself.
(17:25):
Yeah, Elmer Wheeler discoveredthat if, for example, there was
a higher brand or a lower brandof lipstick or whatever it was a
consumer product and you saidthat you used it, you're also
reducing the choice of thecustomer because you've now said
that you use it and if theydon't like you and see
themselves, they're not going tobuy it.
Jeremy Blake (17:46):
So you're actually stating a preference, reducing
choice so actually that's alittle bit of um more
superficial judgment, where thesalesperson says, oh, I, I've
been there, it's really reallygood.
Now you might be thinking, well, I'd hate to go on holiday,
meet somebody like you.
I mean that might be thinkingwell, I'd hate to go on holiday
(18:08):
and meet somebody like you.
I mean that might be the thingthat crosses your brain and it's
that thing about.
Again, we are in a.
Everyone thinks that class hasgone.
It definitely hasn't.
We're all members of variousclasses and we judge people
still in that way quite often.
And it's an odd thing, isn't it?
It's an odd thing that we wouldtry and bond in that way.
Again, it's another form ofbonding, but not necessarily an
(18:31):
effective form of bonding.
Bob Morrell (18:32):
No, and do you think that they look like you,
or a bit like you?
So if you say, you drive thisone too, imagine you're buying a
car yeah, I've got this car aswell, oh, okay, I mean, that's
the last thing you'd want.
Jeremy Blake (18:44):
No, no, absolutely right.
Actually, what you would likemore would feed your ego, better
would be the person to say I'dlove to be able to have that.
Yeah, I'd love to be able to.
I would love that then you.
Then that increases enthusiasm,but that would diminish me in
the eyes of the customer and Idon't want to do that because
I've got a big ego.
No, that's it.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah, yeah you're listening to the reality of
business created by RealityTraining the minds behind the
five principles that power somany successful sales models
today.
These principles deliverconsistency and certainty in
your sales approach.
Discover how we can help yousell more at realitytrainingcom.
Bob Morrell (19:25):
So let's talk about money for a second, and we'll
talk about the money that aconsumer might have or, of
course, the money that might bein a company's bank account.
Now, I think lots of B2Bsalespeople don't research the
company they're selling to tosee how wealthy they are,
profitable they are, how muchmoney is in their bank and, of
(19:46):
course, it is the job of thebuyer to say it's expensive.
It's the job of the buyer tosay we're looking at other
options.
It's the job of the buyer tosay, gosh, that's a lot, we were
looking to invest less.
So I do think you need toresearch the funds of the
business.
But also, do you want to have aguess, bob, at what the ONS, the
(20:07):
Office of National Statistics,released at the end of 2022,
which is the gross disposablehousehold income in the UK
average Per year or per month,per year, per annum and
household household?
Okay, so there could be twopeople in there.
There might be another elder,child, working brother, whatever
(20:29):
, but the gross disposablehousehold income, the UK average
, it's the highest in London.
I'll tell you that next.
But what do you think it is?
Is it something like 35K?
No, it's less than that.
Oh, the gross disposable?
No, it's £22,789.
However, you're spot on.
You go into London, it's 32,330quid?
Jeremy Blake (20:50):
There you go Okay.
Bob Morrell (20:51):
Now there are lots of people in sales who have a
lower disposable income, yes,and therefore believe everybody
else has a lower disposableincome, can't see the value in
what they're selling, and so onand so on.
And we used to do thiswonderful acting, didn't we,
where we'd say, have you got atorch and broken into their
house and looked at their bankstatements?
(21:11):
You know, do you know?
Are you their ifa?
Jeremy Blake (21:15):
and they'd go well no, but you see, the other side
of that is that if you have amistaken belief that, um, most
people are on the same as you orless, yeah, okay.
Don't you occasionally treatyourself and get yourself some
nice chocolates or book a niceare on the same as you or less,
yep, okay.
Don't you occasionally treatyourself and get yourself some
nice chocolates, or book a niceholiday, or buy a better car or
whatever it may be?
(21:35):
Don't you occasionally push theenvelope of your spending
because you want certain thingsand you look at a potential
customer and think there's noway they'd want to do that?
How do you know You're makingthat decision in advance and I
think there's no way they'd wantto do that?
How do you know You're makingthat decision in advance?
And I think that's the otherthing where you might be going
through a terrible time.
You might have huge debts, youmight have huge financial strain
(22:00):
on you and your life and,through some kind of osmosis,
you just assume that everybodyyou speak to is in the same boat
.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And it's really hard not tothink that when you are under a
lot of pressure.
Bob Morrell (22:14):
But the truth is not everyone is.
And it isn't just pressure.
So if you think about peoplewho have a very fixed mindset
and see the world only as itcontinues to be, they don't
believe that they can change forthe better, they don't believe
things will improve.
They don't believe that theycan change for the better.
They don't believe things willimprove.
They don't have hope.
Often they believe other peoplemust feel the same way they do,
and so, at extreme levels,salespeople with severe
(22:41):
challenges or illnesses mentalhealth illnesses will really
struggle because they may bevery low and therefore coloring
their thinking.
So that's why they might getcompletely stuck in a rut, and
it's the effort to get out ofthe rut is harder than just
staying in it.
So what is the remedy?
Jeremy Blake (23:05):
I think a simple remedy is this Until someone
tells you otherwise, alwaysassume that everybody you speak
to can afford everything you'reselling.
Bob Morrell (23:20):
And I can add to that, and I can add to that the
belief you have.
What evidence have you got tosupport it?
Yeah, so when you have a belief, there are two beliefs.
One is a hypothetical fact or ahypothetical belief.
The other is a practical one.
(23:41):
So the hypothetical one is Ibelieve they can't afford it.
If your brain says, therefore,they can't, the other part of
your brain says now get theevidence that supports your
belief.
Have you got a bank statement?
Have they said it?
What is the evidence?
And so the fact is that thebrain is always struggling with
(24:03):
hypothetical facts and they'rebelieving them to be true.
What you have to then say isplease provide the supporting
evidence that you did that.
So if you're a leader listeningto that and they said, well, I
sold them the bronze versionthey could only afford, you say
great, what evidence did youhave back in that decision that
they shared with you so that youknew they couldn't afford the
silver?
(24:23):
Yeah, that decision that theyshared with you so that you knew
they couldn't afford the silver, yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Blake (24:28):
well, that's the same thing as in sales
management in general when, um,you say, how's your month going?
Oh, everyone's terrible,everything's bad, everything's
awful.
You know, you've had two badconversations and it just colors
everything.
And I think sometimes that'sanother thing where a trend
that's in someone's brainbecomes a fact and if you're
(24:50):
another salesperson, the sameteam, having a tough month,
you'll leap on that bandwagonand go oh yeah, yeah, it's
really tough at the momentbecause it takes the pressure
off, because it's external,external forces that are making
you behave in this way.
Bob Morrell (25:04):
Yeah, it also links to your communication style.
If you're quite passive, youwill let the customer run it and
you'll go okay, yeah, yeah, Iunderstand.
Yeah.
So you're passive, if you'reaggressive, you'll go no, this
is absolutely fine for you andyou're arguing they probably
won't buy.
It's that balance of beingassertive, isn't it, and going.
I hear what you're saying, butthis is right.
Yeah, um, you need this, yeah.
(25:24):
And I think you've got a numberof aggressive sales people who
are going oh, rubbish, no onewants this, I can't do this.
How dare you tell me to do this, do you not, do you?
Jeremy Blake (25:33):
not think also.
Perhaps there's also this thingabout people.
If you stop believing in yourproduct and your service, if you
stop believing in itfundamentally, then actually you
don't really care about it.
You just want to get this boxticked and move on to the next
one and therefore, that's goingto affect any belief that you
(25:57):
have and the way that you sellit with a level of belief.
Bob Morrell (26:01):
Well, I take that further.
If you're in a room not in aroom, you're in your house,
you're walking along wherever,you're listening to this and you
don't believe in what you'reselling or representing as a
business, you've got to get out,because you are never going to
get across the value.
As Zig said, enthusiasm the asmis.
I am sold myself, yes, and Ibelieve in it.
(26:24):
And if you don't, oh then howare you going to get across that
feeling to customers?
Jeremy Blake (26:29):
Well, also, if you don't, that's where we come
back to our old friend act as ifYou've got to act as if you do
in front of a customer.
Yeah, have a level ofenthusiasm.
I think a lot of sales isacting because many people sell
things they don't own, that arenever going to work and that are
not for them to buy.
And but if they can act with alevel of enthusiasm that shows
that's worth you having, thenyou're more likely to buy it.
(26:49):
If you are indifferent aboutyour product and service and
trying to sell it and you thensit there and wonder why you
haven't sold very much, it'sbecause of your indifference and
it's because of your um notbelieving that what you're
selling is worth the money.
That's the simple reason whyyou won't have sold as much.
Bob Morrell (27:07):
Now something that's quite interesting.
If you think of many businessesthat have shareholders
returning whatever money to theshareholders, they will have
some of this going ondeep-rooted, where, culturally,
some of the selling is done toshift assets.
(27:30):
In a store or online, it couldbe a pallet full sale items.
Marketing gets involved.
We need to shift the numbers,we need to hit the end of the
month, we need to delivershareholder value and the only
thing they're interested in isnumbers and profit.
What's particularly interestingis if you look at the UK ICS,
the UK Institute of CustomerService the top four businesses
(27:52):
that are at the very top, oftenyear in, year out, have no
shareholders.
They are independently owned,which means the integrity is
higher.
They sell what they want.
I don't know if you want to havea guess at those businesses,
what the top four are.
They sell what they want.
I don't know if you want tohave a guess at those businesses
what the top four are thatdon't have shareholders.
That are the top four in the UKfor customer service integrity
(28:13):
and I give you a bit more of ahint the number one business
gives the people working therewho probably don't see
themselves as salespeople, butthey are.
They can waive up to £ poundsper customer and they don't sell
anything.
When I tell you they are, thatcosts 500 pounds.
Um, we'll have a stab at whatone of the companies would be.
(28:35):
And remember, we're talkingabout customer service and it is
selling.
But john luther, but it's not.
Yes, they are fourth, sothere's three above them.
Okay.
Jeremy Blake (28:44):
It's hard to think of large companies that aren't
public Two are banks, oh, okay.
Bob Morrell (28:49):
But, they're not shareholder-owned banks.
Jeremy Blake (28:51):
Well, is that people like Coots and no?
Bob Morrell (28:55):
no, no, these are mass, they're mass enterprise oh
.
Nationwide, yep, nationwide isthird Very good, and the other
one is another bank is Starling,oh, nationwide, yep, nationwide
is third very good, and theother one is another bank is
Starling, oh, yes, yep.
But number one is Timpson, ofcourse, of course.
And I had that experience where, when he told me what it would
(29:15):
cost to do my car battery, Isaid wow and I went.
Okay, I went in, did myshopping because they're next to
supermarkets, came out and hesaid I was thinking about that,
you thought that was high value,just give me X.
And he reduced it by half.
Jeremy Blake (29:28):
So he has discretion within his thing.
They have discretion up to 500pounds.
Bob Morrell (29:33):
Great, now it's a 15 pound battery.
He ended up saying do you knowwhat?
Pay half if you're not happy,that's fine.
And so I'd gone back for myshoes and things and I'd just
carry on buying.
Jeremy Blake (29:42):
But also that's understanding the power of a
decent brand, a bit like Apple.
Can you name three other keyand shoe repair businesses?
No, no.
Bob Morrell (29:52):
So there you go.
There are independents.
There is one, a very good one,in Stoney.
Jeremy Blake (29:57):
But name three of three more chains that don't
exist.
So there you go.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Well, very interesting subject so there you
go.
Bob Morrell (30:08):
Well, very, very interesting subject.
And I mean, as you say, theremedy is not to do it.
But just telling you not to doit isn't going to fix you, no,
which is why you've got toreally work at this.
I don't think you know.
Listen to this, make notes.
If you've got some beliefblockers in you and some biases,
as bob was saying at the start,you're going to have to work on
those, because you're not goingto be able to repress this part
of you.
That just stops the decision.
Jeremy Blake (30:30):
Absolutely Now.
This is a subject we're goingto be returning to again and
again because it never seems togo away.
It's been around the 25 yearsthat we've been doing this, so
we'd love to hear from listenersif they have an experience with
this as well.
So thank you for listening.
We will see you on another, theReality of Business, very soon,
but in the meantime, thanksvery much.
(30:51):
Cheers for now, bye.
happy, sunny day to you, bobby greetings from a
very sunny east sussex.
I hope it's lovely where youare.
Oh yes, it is in beautiful boxon what will be the warmest day
of the year so far.
We're looking at 29 degreessomewhere in the UK today.
Wow.
So, that's nice.
Bob Morrell (00:32):
I'm in shorts.
Are you Just to give the?
Jeremy Blake (00:34):
listener a visual image.
I am in shorts and I shall betraveling in shorts later, which
I never thought I'd be doing onthe 1st of May.
But there we are, and tell thelisteners where you're traveling
to.
I'm going to Berlin.
I'm going to be doing somenomading in Berlin, so that's
(00:56):
fun On the 1st of May in Berlin.
By the way, it's a bank holiday, whatever day it falls on, and
they have street parties,everyone's dancing in the parks
all day on the 1st of May.
I think we're missing out.
Bob Morrell (01:04):
So you are arriving for street parties?
Jeremy Blake (01:07):
Well, I don't know .
I'm arriving very late.
I don't know whether we'll bestreet partying.
But yeah, nice festiveatmosphere, I hope Great and a
nice weekend in the beer gardens.
Yeah, I mean, what's the versethat could happen, oh very good,
very good, very good, andactually that is a possible
(01:28):
theme of today's podcast.
We are looking at aninteresting subject which has
dogged us as a sales trainingorganization for 25 years,
hasn't it, jay?
20, 25, 20, 20, 25 years, 20,25, 25 years, and it's very hard
actually to come up with a termfor it.
(01:48):
I've actually done someresearch for what this thing
we're going to be talking aboutis called the mental condition.
Well, it is a mental conditionbecause we call it taking the
decision away from the customer.
Okay, now, we'll come up withlots of examples of that in a
minute.
Bob Morrell (02:11):
You could also say making the decision for the
customer.
That's another way of lookingat it.
Jeremy Blake (02:13):
I've got some others Removing choice, removing
choice from the customer Samething You're making the decision
that there is no choice anymore.
The term that I've come up withon this is that this is a
cognitive bias.
It is a brain-based bias whichis based on a number of
different things and I've gotseven things that it could be
based on but essentially it isthe salesperson's own subjective
(02:39):
belief, based on theirexperience or their own
preferences, that makes them dothis.
Bob Morrell (02:45):
Let us go above and just make it really clear.
If you're listening to thispodcast and you either lead an
organization that is selling aproduct or a service or you
yourself sell a product or aservice, what Bob and I are
going to discuss is you're intothe conversation and let's just
say you have a gold, silver andbronze option and the customer
is considering these threelevels products, whatever and
(03:09):
you would say I think the bronzewill work adequately for you.
I think that's really what youneed Now, in whichever language
you like, but you have removedthe silver and the gold.
This is what we're talkingabout you as the salesperson, or
the leader of salespeople,creating some kind of culture
(03:29):
where you are taking decisionsaway from customers.
And there's a lot of reasonswhy you might do it to get the
sale in, to speed it up, to gethome, to get to the pub, and
that list is very long.
Jeremy Blake (03:41):
Let's give a couple of simple examples.
Many, many years ago we weregoing to the south of France for
some work and we were on aplane heading south and you were
sitting there and listeners maynot be aware that you are a bit
(04:04):
of a chocolate guy, not a bitand the trolley came along and
there was a selection ofchocolates available, from your
standard Kit Kats, twixes, thosesorts of things, all the way up
to what I think anybody wouldterm a luxury item, godiva
(04:25):
chocolates.
And you had the little menu outand you were looking at the
different things that wereavailable and she came along
would you like any snacks?
And you held up the thing andyou said what are these Godiva
chocolates?
And she looked at you and said,oh, they're really expensive.
Here you go have a Twix.
And threw you a Twix.
(04:45):
Yeah, yeah, okay, why can't Ihave Godiva chocolates?
And she looked at you and said,oh, they're really expensive.
Bob Morrell (04:48):
Here you go, have a Twix and threw you a Twix?
Jeremy Blake (04:50):
Yeah, okay, why can't I have Godiva?
I mean, anyone knowing you oreven looking at you could
probably make an assumption thatGodiva would be your starting
point.
You would prefer to go up fromGodiva, I think?
Bob Morrell (04:59):
Yeah, you know I had already made mental
connections between BamburyCross, a naked lady riding the
horse.
I was wedded to getting aconnectivity with Godiva and
that was denied me theindividual judging by appearance
(05:26):
.
Jeremy Blake (05:26):
Now, I did a lot of research into what that is.
We can all remember times wheremaybe people have judged us by
our appearance.
When we go into a shop or a carshowroom or something like that
, um, we don't look our best andthe person serving us judges us
accordingly.
What this is.
What is is a superficialjudgment based on how you look.
(05:47):
I think that probably a thirdof sales that are missed are
probably missed because thesalesperson was rude by making a
superficial judgment of thatindividual and the individual
thought right, I'll take mybusiness elsewhere.
Bob Morrell (06:09):
Yeah, I mean the other one, that which I really
want to make the point early onin this conversation.
It is detrimental to thesuccess of you and your business
by doing this.
Yes, and I can tell you thestory of how a small shoe shop
in Buckingham eventually folded.
They sold a very small range ofmen's shoes and a very small
range of ladies' shoes and didrepairs.
I think it had been there forsomething like 70 years and I
(06:33):
would go in there and try andfrequent it to buy shoes a bit
like the fast show, isn't it?
Get my shoes in Winslow.
You remember this story, don'tyou, bob?
I said, hi, I need a, do younot?
No, I need a pair of blackshoes.
And she said, yes, we stock twobrands in the black shoe We've
got Churches and Lokes.
(06:54):
And she looked at me and wentI'll get you some Lokes.
What size Now?
The Churches, I think even then, were 220 a pair and the Lokes
were about 65 quid.
Jeremy Blake (07:06):
No lokes would have been about 100.
Bob Morrell (07:08):
I don't think they were then 75, I seem to remember
yeah.
Okay, now I did it.
I bought the lokes because Itried them on.
They fitted.
Why couldn't I have thechurches?
And this is pre-Prada days whenthey bought them.
But that's another classic.
As Bob said, assumption basedon me, I was even wearing a suit
(07:29):
, ridiculous, superficialjudgment.
If you continually sell yourbronze packages and we work on
this mindset with clients we say, if you're standing on a podium
table, everyone in this contactcenter, everyone on the field
sales, get on the podium.
How many of you are bronzesellers, silver sellers and gold
sellers?
That entire culture of thatstore was selling bronze, which
means the average order value isreduced, which means the
(07:52):
profitability, the margin and soon.
Jeremy Blake (07:55):
Because, as we know, if you're selling bronze
you must sell volume and in asmall market town, the volume of
lokes and churches going outthere was not enough they needed
and I I'm just so pleased thatwe're sticking with the middle
class analogies, because that'sreally I've got one, that I've
got one that's slightly,slightly less middle class, okay
, please.
Um, so I used to work with achap who was very smart during
(08:18):
the week at work, but atweekends he would kick back and
just dress very scruffilybecause he thought I don't need
to make the effort.
And he got a back and justdress very scruffily because he
thought I don't need to make theeffort.
And he got a job and he wasgiven a car allowance which
allowed him to go and buy a carrather than have a company car.
So he walked into his local Iwon't say who, it was a local
(08:38):
dealership of a major car brandand they did exactly what you've
just described.
They took one look at him andhe inquired about this car that
was there.
And they did exactly what you'vejust described they took one
look at him and he inquiredabout this car that was there,
and they made it very clear thatthey didn't think that he was
able to buy this car and thatthey didn't want to spend time
serving him, based on exactlyhow he looked.
So he said okay.
(08:59):
So he then left that dealershipand went four miles down the
road to another dealership ofthe exact same brand that were a
few miles further away from hishome.
He then went in and bought thecar from that dealership.
Six months later he took hiscar to the nearest dealership
for a service because it wasjust more convenient, and the
(09:23):
exact same salesperson came upto him and said excuse me, sir,
I'm just wondering why youbought that car from the one
that was four miles away ratherthan us.
He said yeah, I'll tell youexactly why.
I didn't buy it from you.
Because when I came in here youwere really rude to me and
judged me by the way I looked,and that completely put me off.
So I bought it elsewhere sothere you go, classic example of
(09:47):
how you can miss a sale byjudging absolutely, but it's
also happening in the volumeareas.
Bob Morrell (09:51):
Um, you know, behind a bar, someone says
you've got a lager.
They just pull the tap of thelowest price lager rather than
maybe allowing the customers todo it.
So I also think that it'spertinent to discuss this now,
because we are on projects rightnow and a lot of people we're
working with are saying it's atough economy, we're living in a
(10:14):
challenging economic climate,cost of living crisis, all these
terms.
Well, you are exacerbating that.
If you continually go outselling your bronzes and you
will actually earn less.
The company will turn over less, and a lot of it is your
mindset, and that's what I wantto sort of explore.
The thing that I could say atthe outset, based on choice and
(10:39):
I've got a nice little studyfrom Stanford is that if you
make the choice, you will feelmore satisfied and loyal and
with a sense of control.
You mean the customer makes thechoice.
Jeremy Blake (10:55):
The customer, yeah .
Bob Morrell (10:56):
You, you, as the customer.
Jeremy Blake (10:57):
Because if the customer makes the choice, they
will be in more control.
Bob Morrell (11:00):
And more satisfied because I haven't done it.
And the bit I want to major onis the perspective is not yours
as the salesperson, it's thecustomer's perspective.
And yet, as we know from ourwork, we spend a lot of time
talking about how theperspective of the salesperson,
the customer service person, thesales leader, obscures the
(11:22):
vision and they can't believethat someone else might want
this, afford this, and so theyremove that decision so I've all
.
Jeremy Blake (11:30):
I've also got um, seven reasons why a salesperson
does it would do this.
Great, let's have those.
So the first reason is time.
Okay, it is short-termism.
So I'm focusing on closingsales rather than understanding
needs, which actually you couldput the whole of sales training
(11:53):
into.
If you understood more needs,you would sell more.
If you're not bothering tounderstand the needs and you're
just focusing on closing, you'renot going to be able to offer
the full range of stuff you havebecause you're going after a
sale range of stuff you havebecause you're going after a
sale.
And also, time is believing thatif you take away the decision
(12:14):
from the customer, that willsave time in making a sale,
which maximizes your time to domore sales.
So there's that thing about ifsomeone's going to take a long
time over this.
I haven't got time for that.
I've got a target to hit.
I'll go after more short-termsales options.
So time is the first one.
That links to number two.
(12:36):
Really, which all of that timestuff is really about laziness
Laziness of not wanting toengage in the conversation.
I can't be bothered, I'll gofor the easiest sale.
Now, number three is reallytough, but we have to say it
Racial stereotyping.
Bob Morrell (12:55):
Which is judgment, but on a deeper level, yeah.
Jeremy Blake (12:58):
Yeah, you just look at an entire race of
humanity and think, oh, they'renever going to buy.
Bob Morrell (13:03):
Or a regional accent, absolutely, or anything.
We've experienced this, yeah.
Jeremy Blake (13:08):
Yeah.
Then you've got number four,which is manipulating the
customer because you have atarget to hit.
So there's five differentoptions, but I'm being targeted
on this one, so I'm just goingto offer you that and not give
you the choice of the others.
So that's manipulation.
Now, number five is one we'vetalked about a lot and it's our
(13:30):
big thing disloyal bonding.
Yeah, okay, it is.
It is me going.
Look, you don't need any ofthese other things.
Let me put my arm around youmetaphorically and become your
friend and sell you this thing,because it's easier and I'm lazy
and all those other things.
But I can now do it in adisloyal way, which makes you
think that we are conspiringagainst my organization in some
(13:52):
odd way.
Number six is superficialjudgment by appearance, which
we've just talked about, andseven is really the hardest one
of all.
You are actively conning peopleand that's why you take the
decision away, because byconning them, you know that this
choice they're making gives youthe biggest advantage.
Bob Morrell (14:11):
Well, I won't say who, but do you remember I was
with an organization where wewere paid on the volume of sales
, not the value of sales?
Oh yes, they did a three-monthwhatever you want to call it
drive and said look guys, we'reup against it.
We want to float.
We need customer numbers, notprofitability.
We'll pay you this.
(14:31):
And one woman in my team soldthe lowest priced thing, yeah,
yeah, and her bonus was morethan the value of what she'd
sold Absolutely Brilliant.
The thing I thought I'd sharewith you is I mean, just
steering from that is too manychoices.
Too many choices derails thecustomer's journey as well.
(14:53):
So if you, you know, that'sslightly sort of playing with it
If you've got a number ofchoices, some salespeople think
if I remove those choices, I'llstill get a sale because they're
going to be bombarded.
So if I shorten that Now, whatare their names?
Leeper and Stanford.
(15:14):
I think I've got their namescorrect.
I'll check that in a second.
Hold on, check my notes.
I'll go back to that.
A couple of Stanford people.
You'll love this.
They ran something with Jam andsomething with essays.
So the first thing with jam wasthey created two stands.
One stand had six choices ofgourmet jam and the other stand
(15:39):
had 24 choices of gourmet jam.
When the customer was providedwith those, which stand sold
more jam, the one with sixchoices or the one with 24?
Six, yeah, by a staggering 27%higher in sales.
(16:01):
And the thing about that is, Ithink some salespeople think
there's lots of choice here.
I'll take the decision away,reduce it down and push it,
whereas actually six there's waymore than gold, silver and
bronze in six.
Now the other weird thing isthey based it on essays that you
could buy.
(16:23):
So you'd buy an essay as anacademic essay and you could use
that as a learning to improveyour own essay.
When they reduced the amount ofessay titles, not only did they
sell more essays, but thequality of the essays that the
students then wrote were higher.
So rather than you can look atall these essays you can buy, oh
(16:43):
, flip, don't know where tostart.
Now the point being is that youoften, I think, think there's so
much choice here, I'll reducethe choice down.
That is correct scientificallythat a reduction in choice helps
.
But where you then haveoverstepped your mark as a
salesperson is you've removedall of the flipping choice and
(17:04):
so you've no longer got thatcustomer enjoying making the
choice.
The spinoff of that that Ithought was interesting.
Do you know when we used to?
We have salespeople sometimeswho are training and they say
one of the methods I use is Isay I use that brand, or I drive
that car, or I've got one ofthese myself.
(17:25):
Yeah, Elmer Wheeler discoveredthat if, for example, there was
a higher brand or a lower brandof lipstick or whatever it was a
consumer product and you saidthat you used it, you're also
reducing the choice of thecustomer because you've now said
that you use it and if theydon't like you and see
themselves, they're not going tobuy it.
Jeremy Blake (17:46):
So you're actually stating a preference, reducing
choice so actually that's alittle bit of um more
superficial judgment, where thesalesperson says, oh, I, I've
been there, it's really reallygood.
Now you might be thinking, well, I'd hate to go on holiday,
meet somebody like you.
I mean that might be thinkingwell, I'd hate to go on holiday
(18:08):
and meet somebody like you.
I mean that might be the thingthat crosses your brain and it's
that thing about.
Again, we are in a.
Everyone thinks that class hasgone.
It definitely hasn't.
We're all members of variousclasses and we judge people
still in that way quite often.
And it's an odd thing, isn't it?
It's an odd thing that we wouldtry and bond in that way.
Again, it's another form ofbonding, but not necessarily an
(18:31):
effective form of bonding.
Bob Morrell (18:32):
No, and do you think that they look like you,
or a bit like you?
So if you say, you drive thisone too, imagine you're buying a
car yeah, I've got this car aswell, oh, okay, I mean, that's
the last thing you'd want.
Jeremy Blake (18:44):
No, no, absolutely right.
Actually, what you would likemore would feed your ego, better
would be the person to say I'dlove to be able to have that.
Yeah, I'd love to be able to.
I would love that then you.
Then that increases enthusiasm,but that would diminish me in
the eyes of the customer and Idon't want to do that because
I've got a big ego.
No, that's it.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah, yeah you're listening to the reality of
business created by RealityTraining the minds behind the
five principles that power somany successful sales models
today.
These principles deliverconsistency and certainty in
your sales approach.
Discover how we can help yousell more at realitytrainingcom.
Bob Morrell (19:25):
So let's talk about money for a second, and we'll
talk about the money that aconsumer might have or, of
course, the money that might bein a company's bank account.
Now, I think lots of B2Bsalespeople don't research the
company they're selling to tosee how wealthy they are,
profitable they are, how muchmoney is in their bank and, of
(19:46):
course, it is the job of thebuyer to say it's expensive.
It's the job of the buyer tosay we're looking at other
options.
It's the job of the buyer tosay, gosh, that's a lot, we were
looking to invest less.
So I do think you need toresearch the funds of the
business.
But also, do you want to have aguess, bob, at what the ONS, the
(20:07):
Office of National Statistics,released at the end of 2022,
which is the gross disposablehousehold income in the UK
average Per year or per month,per year, per annum and
household household?
Okay, so there could be twopeople in there.
There might be another elder,child, working brother, whatever
(20:29):
, but the gross disposablehousehold income, the UK average
, it's the highest in London.
I'll tell you that next.
But what do you think it is?
Is it something like 35K?
No, it's less than that.
Oh, the gross disposable?
No, it's £22,789.
However, you're spot on.
You go into London, it's 32,330quid?
Jeremy Blake (20:50):
There you go Okay.
Bob Morrell (20:51):
Now there are lots of people in sales who have a
lower disposable income, yes,and therefore believe everybody
else has a lower disposableincome, can't see the value in
what they're selling, and so onand so on.
And we used to do thiswonderful acting, didn't we,
where we'd say, have you got atorch and broken into their
house and looked at their bankstatements?
(21:11):
You know, do you know?
Are you their ifa?
Jeremy Blake (21:15):
and they'd go well no, but you see, the other side
of that is that if you have amistaken belief that, um, most
people are on the same as you orless, yeah, okay.
Don't you occasionally treatyourself and get yourself some
nice chocolates or book a niceare on the same as you or less,
yep, okay.
Don't you occasionally treatyourself and get yourself some
nice chocolates, or book a niceholiday, or buy a better car or
whatever it may be?
(21:35):
Don't you occasionally push theenvelope of your spending
because you want certain thingsand you look at a potential
customer and think there's noway they'd want to do that?
How do you know You're makingthat decision in advance and I
think there's no way they'd wantto do that?
How do you know You're makingthat decision in advance?
And I think that's the otherthing where you might be going
through a terrible time.
You might have huge debts, youmight have huge financial strain
(22:00):
on you and your life and,through some kind of osmosis,
you just assume that everybodyyou speak to is in the same boat
.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And it's really hard not tothink that when you are under a
lot of pressure.
Bob Morrell (22:14):
But the truth is not everyone is.
And it isn't just pressure.
So if you think about peoplewho have a very fixed mindset
and see the world only as itcontinues to be, they don't
believe that they can change forthe better, they don't believe
things will improve.
They don't believe that theycan change for the better.
They don't believe things willimprove.
They don't have hope.
Often they believe other peoplemust feel the same way they do,
and so, at extreme levels,salespeople with severe
(22:41):
challenges or illnesses mentalhealth illnesses will really
struggle because they may bevery low and therefore coloring
their thinking.
So that's why they might getcompletely stuck in a rut, and
it's the effort to get out ofthe rut is harder than just
staying in it.
So what is the remedy?
Jeremy Blake (23:05):
I think a simple remedy is this Until someone
tells you otherwise, alwaysassume that everybody you speak
to can afford everything you'reselling.
Bob Morrell (23:20):
And I can add to that, and I can add to that the
belief you have.
What evidence have you got tosupport it?
Yeah, so when you have a belief, there are two beliefs.
One is a hypothetical fact or ahypothetical belief.
The other is a practical one.
(23:41):
So the hypothetical one is Ibelieve they can't afford it.
If your brain says, therefore,they can't, the other part of
your brain says now get theevidence that supports your
belief.
Have you got a bank statement?
Have they said it?
What is the evidence?
And so the fact is that thebrain is always struggling with
(24:03):
hypothetical facts and they'rebelieving them to be true.
What you have to then say isplease provide the supporting
evidence that you did that.
So if you're a leader listeningto that and they said, well, I
sold them the bronze versionthey could only afford, you say
great, what evidence did youhave back in that decision that
they shared with you so that youknew they couldn't afford the
silver?
(24:23):
Yeah, that decision that theyshared with you so that you knew
they couldn't afford the silver, yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Blake (24:28):
well, that's the same thing as in sales
management in general when, um,you say, how's your month going?
Oh, everyone's terrible,everything's bad, everything's
awful.
You know, you've had two badconversations and it just colors
everything.
And I think sometimes that'sanother thing where a trend
that's in someone's brainbecomes a fact and if you're
(24:50):
another salesperson, the sameteam, having a tough month,
you'll leap on that bandwagonand go oh yeah, yeah, it's
really tough at the momentbecause it takes the pressure
off, because it's external,external forces that are making
you behave in this way.
Bob Morrell (25:04):
Yeah, it also links to your communication style.
If you're quite passive, youwill let the customer run it and
you'll go okay, yeah, yeah, Iunderstand.
Yeah.
So you're passive, if you'reaggressive, you'll go no, this
is absolutely fine for you andyou're arguing they probably
won't buy.
It's that balance of beingassertive, isn't it, and going.
I hear what you're saying, butthis is right.
Yeah, um, you need this, yeah.
(25:24):
And I think you've got a numberof aggressive sales people who
are going oh, rubbish, no onewants this, I can't do this.
How dare you tell me to do this, do you not, do you?
Jeremy Blake (25:33):
not think also.
Perhaps there's also this thingabout people.
If you stop believing in yourproduct and your service, if you
stop believing in itfundamentally, then actually you
don't really care about it.
You just want to get this boxticked and move on to the next
one and therefore, that's goingto affect any belief that you
(25:57):
have and the way that you sellit with a level of belief.
Bob Morrell (26:01):
Well, I take that further.
If you're in a room not in aroom, you're in your house,
you're walking along wherever,you're listening to this and you
don't believe in what you'reselling or representing as a
business, you've got to get out,because you are never going to
get across the value.
As Zig said, enthusiasm the asmis.
I am sold myself, yes, and Ibelieve in it.
(26:24):
And if you don't, oh then howare you going to get across that
feeling to customers?
Jeremy Blake (26:29):
Well, also, if you don't, that's where we come
back to our old friend act as ifYou've got to act as if you do
in front of a customer.
Yeah, have a level ofenthusiasm.
I think a lot of sales isacting because many people sell
things they don't own, that arenever going to work and that are
not for them to buy.
And but if they can act with alevel of enthusiasm that shows
that's worth you having, thenyou're more likely to buy it.
(26:49):
If you are indifferent aboutyour product and service and
trying to sell it and you thensit there and wonder why you
haven't sold very much, it'sbecause of your indifference and
it's because of your um notbelieving that what you're
selling is worth the money.
That's the simple reason whyyou won't have sold as much.
Bob Morrell (27:07):
Now something that's quite interesting.
If you think of many businessesthat have shareholders
returning whatever money to theshareholders, they will have
some of this going ondeep-rooted, where, culturally,
some of the selling is done toshift assets.
(27:30):
In a store or online, it couldbe a pallet full sale items.
Marketing gets involved.
We need to shift the numbers,we need to hit the end of the
month, we need to delivershareholder value and the only
thing they're interested in isnumbers and profit.
What's particularly interestingis if you look at the UK ICS,
the UK Institute of CustomerService the top four businesses
(27:52):
that are at the very top, oftenyear in, year out, have no
shareholders.
They are independently owned,which means the integrity is
higher.
They sell what they want.
I don't know if you want to havea guess at those businesses,
what the top four are.
They sell what they want.
I don't know if you want tohave a guess at those businesses
what the top four are thatdon't have shareholders.
That are the top four in the UKfor customer service integrity
(28:13):
and I give you a bit more of ahint the number one business
gives the people working therewho probably don't see
themselves as salespeople, butthey are.
They can waive up to £ poundsper customer and they don't sell
anything.
When I tell you they are, thatcosts 500 pounds.
Um, we'll have a stab at whatone of the companies would be.
(28:35):
And remember, we're talkingabout customer service and it is
selling.
But john luther, but it's not.
Yes, they are fourth, sothere's three above them.
Okay.
Jeremy Blake (28:44):
It's hard to think of large companies that aren't
public Two are banks, oh, okay.
Bob Morrell (28:49):
But, they're not shareholder-owned banks.
Jeremy Blake (28:51):
Well, is that people like Coots and no?
Bob Morrell (28:55):
no, no, these are mass, they're mass enterprise oh
.
Nationwide, yep, nationwide isthird Very good, and the other
one is another bank is Starling,oh, nationwide, yep, nationwide
is third very good, and theother one is another bank is
Starling, oh, yes, yep.
But number one is Timpson, ofcourse, of course.
And I had that experience where, when he told me what it would
(29:15):
cost to do my car battery, Isaid wow and I went.
Okay, I went in, did myshopping because they're next to
supermarkets, came out and hesaid I was thinking about that,
you thought that was high value,just give me X.
And he reduced it by half.
Jeremy Blake (29:28):
So he has discretion within his thing.
They have discretion up to 500pounds.
Bob Morrell (29:33):
Great, now it's a 15 pound battery.
He ended up saying do you knowwhat?
Pay half if you're not happy,that's fine.
And so I'd gone back for myshoes and things and I'd just
carry on buying.
Jeremy Blake (29:42):
But also that's understanding the power of a
decent brand, a bit like Apple.
Can you name three other keyand shoe repair businesses?
No, no.
Bob Morrell (29:52):
So there you go.
There are independents.
There is one, a very good one,in Stoney.
Jeremy Blake (29:57):
But name three of three more chains that don't
exist.
So there you go.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Well, very interesting subject so there you
go.
Bob Morrell (30:08):
Well, very, very interesting subject.
And I mean, as you say, theremedy is not to do it.
But just telling you not to doit isn't going to fix you, no,
which is why you've got toreally work at this.
I don't think you know.
Listen to this, make notes.
If you've got some beliefblockers in you and some biases,
as bob was saying at the start,you're going to have to work on
those, because you're not goingto be able to repress this part
of you.
That just stops the decision.
Jeremy Blake (30:30):
Absolutely Now.
This is a subject we're goingto be returning to again and
again because it never seems togo away.
It's been around the 25 yearsthat we've been doing this, so
we'd love to hear from listenersif they have an experience with
this as well.
So thank you for listening.
We will see you on another, theReality of Business, very soon,
but in the meantime, thanksvery much.
(30:51):
Cheers for now, bye.
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