March 19, 2024 • 45 mins
What makes a sales strategy irresistible?
This episode promises to change your approach to sales and sales training through the lens of behavioural science. We kick things off by discussing how societal trends, can signal shifts in consumer behaviour — a key factor in shaping effective sales tactics. We sight insights from behavioural science experts like Rory Sutherland, and we examine how anthropology, sociology, and psychology, economics and political science influence purchasing decisions. Plus, we get personal, sharing anecdotes that reflect broader social patterns and their impact on the sales process.
As we peel back the layers of sales psychology, we tackle the science around competitive tenders, emphasising the power of timing and presentation order. By blending our professional experiences with established principles, we explore the art of convincing customers of a product's value and the significance of brand integrity. We discuss the importance of aligning a sales team's mindset with their company's value proposition and how this alignment can drive customer loyalty and improved sales metrics. And remember, it's not about catering to outlier customers, but rather, focusing on high-frequency behaviours that are your ticket to sales success.
Wrapping things up, we share actionable tips and strategies to enhance your sales conversations from average to exceptional. We dive into resources like Elmer Wheeler's language techniques and Dr. Robert Cialdini's persuasion principles, demonstrating how they can create a compelling sales narrative. Additionally, we talk about the importance of curiosity in understanding customer behaviour for targeting the right buyers. And for those hungry for more, our book The Perfect Storm is mentioned, offering 30 methods to weather any business climate.
So tune in, absorb these insights, and let's transform the way you think about sales, sales training and behavioural science.
For more info, free resources, useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
Reality Training - Selling Certainty
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob (00:09):
Bob and Jeremy's Conflab the reality podcast.
Jeremy (00:21):
Hello Bobby.
Greetings on this fine day soyou're standing there looking
like you've sort of come out ofa shower, had maybe just a cup
of coffee and only a banana.
I don't know, am I right?
Bob (00:35):
You're absolutely right.
That's my new regime which ischanging me from the middle aged
Camerjan.
I was into a slightly thinnermiddle aged Camerjan, so it's
good.
Jeremy (00:49):
So, ladies and gentlemen , just a banana and a coffee,
and you too can be like BobMorrell.
Bob (00:54):
And no cigarettes, very important, no, no no smoking, no
vaping.
Jeremy (00:59):
It's a filthy habit.
It's so funny.
You sometimes driving orwalking down a high street and
somebody just lets the vape go.
And it's as if they'vespontaneously humanly combusted.
This immense cloud of smokejust appears, and you think,
what are you doing?
Bob (01:14):
Well, I saw the other day it was on the news that lots of
young people are now moving fromvapes, which are obviously
things that you don't inhalewith tobacco, back to cigars,
which are going through a boon,and pipe smoking.
And that's really interesting.
I mean, I smoked pipe for years.
(01:34):
It's becoming very, verypopular again because I suppose
you inhale less with the pipeand if you're vaping you get
nicotine anyway and people arethinking what the hell?
Jeremy (01:43):
Pipes.
Young people holding pipe,younger people looking like
Harold Wilson.
Bob (01:48):
Well, you know, it's a very pleasant thing to smoke a pipe
because it's quite aromatic.
You don't have to sort of keepsmoking it like a cigarette.
You can put a pipe down andthen relight it.
It's a very clever thing.
This lead-in what we've justbeen talking about is actually
perfect for what we're talkingabout today.
Jeremy (02:03):
It is.
It really is.
Bob (02:05):
Because today, listeners, we're going to be talking about
sales training, which is, ofcourse, what we do for a living,
but, more importantly,behavioral science.
So what we've just been talkingabout there is a trend.
People go through trends.
I remember when vaping firstcame out, there was a huge trend
to vape even if you didn'tsmoke.
You know that's the odd thingabout vaping that people will
(02:27):
choose to vape rather than smoke, even if they never smoked
before.
It's a thing that people willthink oh, that looks quite cool,
or I like the look of that, orI like the taste of that, so
I'll give that a go.
And trends are very much part ofbehavioral science.
And we've been thinking aboutthis because we've been training
for over 20 years and more andmore the various areas of
(02:51):
behavioral science creep intowhat we do.
Because if you're sellingsomething, if you have a
business that is commercial,then it's important to think
well, what is it about what Ihave, what I'm selling that is
appealing to people, and whatare the things that are going to
make them buy?
But also, what are the habitssocially that people are engaged
(03:14):
with that are going to makethem more inclined to buy?
So we're going to spend a bitof time today thinking about
those things and comparing thedifferent elements of behavioral
science and some of the thingsthat we've read about it and
seeing where the connections arebetween various elements of
behavioral science and, ofcourse, how you sell things.
(03:34):
That's what we're really goingto be looking at.
Jeremy (03:36):
And you just were talking about trends.
It is definitely trending Lotsmore people writing about
behavioral science.
Previously they would just saysales psychology or the
psychology of selling.
I think we should start withletting people know what it is,
and I'm going to give you whichI like I looked at a few sort of
explanations.
This is the University ofChicago Booth and I'm in a booth
(04:00):
right now, my recording booth.
Bob (04:01):
Yes lovely.
Jeremy (04:02):
So this is what they say on their website.
They've got a whole school ofbehavioral science within their
business school.
It says behavioral sciencedescribes the study of human
behavior through the use ofsystematic experimentation and
observation.
Behavioral scientists studywhen and why individuals engage
in specific behaviors byexperimentally examining the
(04:23):
impact of factors such asconscious thoughts, motivation,
social influences, contextualeffects and habits.
And then, what I think is thelast bit to add to this, several
disciplines fall under thebroad label, including
anthropology, behavioraleconomics, cognitive psychology,
consumer behavior, socialpsychology, sociology, biology,
(04:45):
and so on and so on.
So have you got anything to addto help the listeners get what
behavioral science?
Bob (04:51):
is no, those are the five.
Well, you've given a number ofthe different behavioral
sciences.
Another University ofMassachusetts, Amherst, defines
behavioral science simplyeconomics, anthropology,
sociology, psychology andpolitical science.
So that's an interesting one,as well as biology insofar as it
(05:12):
deals with animal and humanbehavior.
So there's a number of elementsthere with which come into that
and actually you could arguethat all of those things cross
over at some point, becausepolitical science crosses over
the economics, sociology andpsychology will cross over.
Anthropology and biologydefinitely cross over, and so
there's various areas where youhave these different sciences.
Jeremy (05:35):
We'd even then go into biochemistry, wouldn't we,
because of different chemicalsin our brains being released and
so on.
Yeah, I mean, it's certainlycome a long way from Jungian
types or archetypes where whichtype you're selling to.
Let's look at them.
They introvert, they extrovertand all the other types and
Myers-Briggs I mean there's awhole school of stuff that you
can put into the sales trainingarena.
(05:57):
But we're looking at thisbehavioral science.
The other thing I think is nicefor listeners to know right at
the start, because one of theleading practitioners in this
space is Rory Sutherland, who isthe vice chairman at Ogilvy, of
course, following on from thatgreat name, david Ogilvy, and we
can talk about him more.
I've read all his books.
He's tremendous.
He says there's no rightanswers, but you're looking for
(06:21):
patterns.
And you see, if you're lookingfor patterns of behavior, then
that might, as you were saying,bob, at the start, that might
choose how you position yourproduct, position your brand,
timing of when you might offerit, what color, what style, what
size, and so on and so on andso on.
But what interests both of usis, instead, of behavioral
science staying only within therealm of marketeers and people
(06:42):
who work in advertising because,as we know, that world has
changed dramatically.
We're not all staring at ads inmagazines or being influenced
quite so much by advertising.
We can skip it on ourtelevisions, we can move past it
.
There's almost a trend to saywhat can we put into the mouths
of salespeople, what can we putinto the mouths of customer
(07:04):
service people?
So in their interactions withcustomers, both existing or
potential, they might have someinfluence.
And through understanding theymight have some influence and,
interestingly enough, notunderstanding behavioral science
, but just following a method,they might improve the outcome.
Bob (07:22):
So I like to add into that that if you're thinking about
the behaviors of customers andhow they interact with a brand
or a person or a sales person,what you're looking for is an
area of predictability.
So if you're looking for thosepatterns, then you think, ah, I
realize that this marketing,this question, this statement, I
(07:44):
can predict that a highernumber of people will find that
positive than something else.
And I was listening to a reallygood podcast.
It's the current today podcastwith Amarajan about politics,
and this links into thepolitical science element where,
of course, what's happened overthe last 50 years is a change
away from class into educationand relative wealth.
(08:11):
So if you go back 50 years, youcould predict pretty easily that
more working class people wouldvote Labour, more middle and
upper class would voteConservative, and that was a
kind of a set thing at that time.
Over the time, more and morepeople have moved, gone through
university education etc.
(08:31):
And have better education andearned more money than they
perhaps would have done 50 yearsago for the class that they're
in, because that's the way thatthe world's changed, and so that
predictability of who peopleare going to vote for has
changed hugely.
And of course, there's otherfactors, like Brexit and various
things like that, but that'sanother point that, as a brand,
(08:53):
if I'm looking for someone tosell my stuff to, I want to be
able to predict the type ofperson, the income type and act
accordingly.
Jeremy (09:04):
I mean, the political thing is fascinating about how
certain leaders, of course, canposition themselves as the right
vote for across all classes,all incomes.
Brexit vote was largely basedon one sort of factor, that or a
number of factors.
But yeah, we're not going downthat road quite so much as far
as political behavioural stuff.
(09:25):
So I was thinking of you and Iwere talking about, before
recording this, that actuallywhat we've been doing for some
years is elements of behaviouralscience in our sales training
anyway.
But we've never bothered to callit that because, that's become
the new phrase of it how toposition choice to people, how
to do all sorts of things andI've got a great example of this
(09:49):
.
Bob (09:49):
So a classic element of behavioural science is if you
are selling something incomparison to other companies.
So let's say there's fivecompanies up for a tender or a
large piece of work and eachcompany is going to present
their proposal, their quotation,to the customer.
(10:10):
There's a lot of behaviouralscience, psychology, around when
you should do that presentationand what it says is that,
statistically, if each companyis going one after the other
back to back, then you shouldalways be the first company to
present, because then everyother presentation is going to
be compared against yourbenchmark and that puts you in a
(10:30):
very good position.
However, if those presentationsare taking place over a week,
then you should be the lastcompany to present, because time
has gone on, people's decisionmaking will have formed over
time and then actually the lastone may be the trigger they want
.
Statistically, you're much morelikely to get it Now.
(10:51):
That is, someone studying salespresentations over years and
years and years and going OK,behaviourally, this is when you
need to present, if this is thesituation.
So that's statistically aclassic scenario.
But also you must understandthat statistically, that doesn't
follow every time that's goingto be the case, but more often
(11:11):
than not, let's say two thirdsof the time.
Jeremy (11:14):
So I was sticking with the idea that in the training
room, we brought in elements ofbehavioural science, which
either we've called how toposition yourself as the right
choice, and so on.
But let's not get away from thefact that vast amounts of
reasons why companies contact usand other people in the field
is they're struggling to justifya price.
They aren't making enough money, they want to sell their higher
(11:34):
priced products, they want tosell more of them, they want to
increase their average valueorder, they want to increase the
frequency of transaction, so onand so on and so on and so on.
So we tend to do our diagnosis,we listen, we see the various
habits that are taking placethat are not helping them and
arguably, we're in that room.
We're in, whatever the situation, is the program that we're in
which is trying to help a groupof people to be confident about
(11:58):
the prices that they wish tocharge.
And so what we're getting intois just as you've said right at
the start, is the who, who arethe best people who are most
likely to agree to this price?
And the vast challenge that Isee us coming up is not only
have we got the behavioralscience challenge of positioning
it to customers.
Most of what we're doing in thetraining room is working on the
(12:21):
brains of the people in theroom to be able to get them to
understand that their behaviorneeds to change so that they can
believe it is worth it.
And the most basic line thatwe've used for years is stop
taking decisions away fromcustomers.
But we have to go much deeperthan that, because the people
who are tasked with selling theproducts and services are
struggling to believe it isworth it.
Bob (12:43):
It's quite common for us to present a scenario as a regular
type of interaction, a regulartype of call, a regular type of
conversation, a classic scenariocustomer of some kind.
And so often someone will puttheir hand up or just chime in
and say, well, that's all verywell, but what about this type
(13:06):
of customer?
Yeah, and of course, whenyou're speaking to lots of
different customers, the onesthat stand out are the unusual
ones.
And yet that person has takenthat one example and says, well,
look, that's a behavioral shiftthat your example doesn't cater
for.
Yeah, and that's such a commonreaction to the kind of work
(13:27):
that we do, because that's thestandout and of course that's
unusual, so you shouldn'tnecessarily worry about that so
much.
But because all the others arefairly mundane and fairly
straightforward and same, verysamey, then it's easier for you
to latch on to that thing thatdoesn't quite fit that hole and
think, well, that's a big shift,it provides comfort.
Jeremy (13:48):
It's the curveball that people want to say is going to
be increasing in volume, whichwill make their job difficult
Rather than ignoring it.
It was a fairly fruitless,academic, theoretical discussion
we could have in the pubafterwards about oh, I had this
customer, did you?
How exciting.
Let's just look at the highfrequency types and focus our
behavior on them, Whereas peoplewill say, ah, but we do get
(14:11):
these customers.
You say this and we're sayingokay, okay, but it looks like
you are being anxious, you arebeing anchored back to a way of
thinking that is not going toserve you or serve the customer.
Bob (14:20):
So there's a really good question that anybody can ask.
If they're thinking abouteither their team or themselves
as a salesperson, where are thebehavioral insights linked to
the sales metrics?
So if you're not a salesmanager, you're not necessarily
seeing the metrics.
These are the types ofcustomers, these are the average
(14:41):
order value.
These are the typical salesthat we are making.
If I can't convey that to myteam in the right way, then all
they're going to think about arethe curveballs that come in and
think, well, that's abehavioral change.
No, that's a behavioral changefor that.
One or two examples that you'vegot.
There's 90 plus percent of thesales here, which are the true
(15:02):
behavioral insights.
These are the majority andthese are the ones that we can
do most with, and in fact,people should definitely
consider the Pareto principle80-20.
You know I'm sure that applieshere where 20% of your customers
will account for 80% of yourrevenue.
Those 20% will be the highestspending accounts or customers
that you should be focusing inon, and there will be a
(15:24):
similarity in behavior fromthose people, broadly speaking.
And then everybody else.
You know lots and lots ofcustomers.
They will be spending muchsmaller amounts and maybe there
will be some curveballs withinthem.
But you know, you've got tothink about what is the majority
, or what are the highestspenders, or what are their
characteristics.
That's the true sales metric.
Jeremy (15:45):
And I think the other thing is that what you believe
as an owner, what you believe asa product maker, inventor,
engineer, may not be the casewhatsoever.
Rory Sutherland does give avery good example.
You can play the video on hiswebsite where he tries to
explain what behavioral scienceis and he talks about pizza
(16:05):
delivery.
And he says a company believesthe only way that they'll get
better and better is fasterpizza delivery.
But when they do some researchand say to customers, if you
were to order it and we gave youa definite time and the time
was longer away and all thatwould mean is you might need to
order it a little bit in advance, would that be OK?
Nearly all customers, in factmore, said yes.
(16:27):
If you said, ring us at eightand we'll say we'll get a pizza
two at nine, is that OK?
Ring us at seven, we'll get apizza two at eight, yeah, that's
fine.
So it isn't believing becauseyou think well, pizza delivery
is quick, it was invented byspeed of delivery.
But if I ring for a pizza atseven and they say, yeah, we'll
drop it round at eight andthat's fine for me, then that is
absolutely fine.
(16:48):
So that's a good example of notfollowing your own thoughts,
but actually asking yourcustomers do you mind?
How would you feel if we gaveyou a specific time slot, and so
on, and so on, and so on.
So it's a very good example.
And the other thing that RorySullivan continually says is
that behavioral science isallowing yourself to not think.
You have to be rational andfollow some existing logic.
(17:08):
Let's look at what is out there.
Let's ask people questions.
You see other things.
Sales people don't askcustomers does this matter or
does this matter?
They've made a decisionthemselves and beat themselves
up trying to achieve a targetthat isn't worth measuring.
Bob (17:22):
Now that brings me on to something you mentioned earlier,
the connection to marketing.
So one of the behavioralscience sales examples which is
often talked about and I've readit on about five websites is
what they call the principle ofa decoy.
Now, for years you and I havebeen training this as a
reciprocal concession.
Jeremy (17:42):
Which is the language of Dr Robert Cialdini.
Bob (17:44):
Absolutely.
I read this the other day where, if you go into the cinema and
you buy popcorn, there'll be amedium carton of popcorn,
there'll be a large and they'llbe within a pound of each other.
You'll go for the large andthere'll also be an extra large,
which would be way more Okay,way more, but you get way more
popcorn.
(18:04):
Now the idea of that is to makemore people buy the middle
option because you think, well,that's ridiculous, so I'm not
going to go for the smaller one,I'm going to go right in the
middle.
It's a simple way to guidepeople to buy a bit more popcorn
than they probably need, andthey probably sell a few of the
big ones too.
But the point is that we weretraining that for years, as if
(18:25):
you offer everyone everything ora massive amount of stuff.
They may love it, but they'regoing.
That's not quite right for us,but we'll go for the notch down
and we'll have it.
You, it's gold, it's platinumgold.
So if you offer people lots ofplatinum, you'll sell way more
gold.
Jeremy (18:40):
We could argue that Robert Cialdini is really
putting forward in his mostimportant work influence, the
six weapons of persuasion he'sputting forward in a sense
behavioral science, things totest.
You know, how can we testlikeability, how can we test
social proof, and so on.
The other thing that he saysabout that reciprocal concession
is if you stop people in thestreet and say hi, would you
(19:01):
volunteer for one week a year ata special school where you go
in and do reading?
People go a week.
He goes, okay, would you justdo one day a year?
People go, yeah, sure, and Iused to give the.
I don't know if you rememberthis.
I used to give the thing aboutAngela, my mother-in-law, saying
Angela, could you have my threekids for a week so Tash and I
can go away?
Jeremy, yours are quite ahandful, a whole, or could you
(19:25):
just have them over the weekend?
And that's a reciprocalconcession.
That is behavioral science.
Bob (19:31):
Well, you could argue, in that case, in that example, it's
manipulation.
Yeah, I know, I know, I know.
Jeremy (19:37):
Well, that's a very good point to bring up is that we
know if we're doing things in adodgy way and we get people
excited about things we canmanipulate.
Years ago we learned about atechnique, and I don't know if
you remember what thetechnique's called.
So a customer asks about theprice of something, you say it's
more, but we'll check.
And when you return fromchecking it's different.
(19:59):
So you say, how much is thatdress in the window?
And I say, oh, that lovelylittle black dress.
Yeah, that's £285.
I'll just go and see.
Are you a 12?
Yeah, bear with me, I'll justgo and see if we've got one.
And you come back and say I wascompletely wrong, it's £180.
So you think I've got £100 off.
Bob (20:15):
Yeah, that is manipulative, totally manipulative.
Jeremy (20:17):
I don't know what that was called.
Price conditioning yeah, priceconditioning, price conditioning
, which is?
And that that's the point aboutbehavioral science.
I'm sure that there are peoplewho can use it to manipulate
customers' choices very much.
You're listening to Bob andJeremy's.
Bob (20:31):
Conflab brought to you by Reality Training, selling
certainty.
We're a leading training andcoaching company based in the UK
.
For information on how we helpour clients improve their
businesses, check out ourwebsite, realitytrainingcom.
(20:53):
Now we're talking a bit aboutpricing here, and I think it's
really important to make thiscase as well.
Many brands will set pricinglevels, especially if they have
a range of products, and in theback of their brain will be this
thought that, and the good newsis we've got people on the
(21:15):
phone or face-to-face who havethe skill to upsell the customer
from the level that they'retalking about.
Now I think over the years thatthat behavioural science has
definitely shifted.
If you think about the seniorsort of trading level of
organisations who are looking atthe people who are on the front
line, I wonder do they think tothemselves well, the good news
(21:38):
is we've got some great peoplehere who've got great skill at
upselling and therefore,whatever level we pitch this at,
there's a chance of enhancingthat?
Or do they think actually wehaven't got a lot of faith in
our people at all becausethey're under-trained or
underskilled and therefore we'regoing to make sure that the
price point is such that theredoesn't need to be any upsell,
(22:01):
which is a terrible behaviouraljudgement on your own people,
actually, and shows that you'veunder-invested in them, if
you're choosing price points atwhich your people are
essentially taking orders,rather than engaging in a good
customer experience, which givesthe opportunity to upsell.
So I think that's another cleardifferentiation.
Jeremy (22:20):
We could argue that the entire thing about price and
teams whatever they callthemselves trading teams look at
the marketplace, decide whatoffers to bundle together.
What will be more persuasive?
Which pattern of these threeoffers will be most likely taken
up over this Easter weekend?
What are the price points we'regoing to suggest?
(22:42):
And, of course, interestinglyenough, they don't test for long
enough.
Usually it's a short-term thingand they hope it just has a
spike in sales and then they'llcome up with something else.
But I think what sales people inthe sales training room in the
scenario of price is we'reencouraging people to downsell,
which is kind of the trend thatwe have done in sales training.
(23:03):
As we've not really trainedupsell, we've said look, this is
perfect for you based oneverything you've told me.
You need these four things andthey're going four things.
I just was ringing you today totalk about one thing.
Well, having talked to you, youneed that, that, that and that
you don't just need the sheet,you need the duvet cover.
You want the pillowcases, youknow, and the throw, you know.
Bob (23:22):
People are buying bedclothes all the time.
Oh, absolutely.
Now what that also links to andthat's another key sell
psychology, which again isunderused.
For years, for 20 years now,you and I have been training
alternative closing, alternativeopenings, which the psychology
of which it is the, and stillremains, the most underused
(23:44):
question in sales all the time.
Not enough people, even if theyhave a range of products, not
enough people are making clearcomparisons and saying which of
these would you like, ratherthan do you just want this?
Now, that is an interestingbehavioral science thing,
because if that's the case, as aconsumer, I like to make a
selection, I like to have theluxury of choice.
(24:05):
Why aren't you giving it to me?
And if you are giving it to me,why aren't you making it
explicit and clear that that ismy choice?
And again, that comes down tolanguage Are these people who
are having these conversationsskilled enough to show the
different options and then helpthat customer to make a clear
choice?
Because, if we think about theinternet and the way that
(24:28):
behavioral science has changedthe way that we buy things, we
are now going online, looking atproducts online, looking at
what the different things are,the website service people who
looked at this also looked atthis thing as well.
You can make a comparison ofthese two things here.
The internet absolutely helpsus make those choices.
So, therefore, where is theskill in the individual to go?
(24:51):
Ok, there are two major optionsfor you here, and I want to
make sure you're clear on bothof them.
Jeremy (24:55):
And then you have the choice.
Bob (24:57):
Yes, you still have the choice, you can make that
selection, and that is againsomething we've been training
for years and years and in someways I wish we had said here's a
really fascinating piece ofbehavioral science.
Jeremy (25:09):
People are much more likely to buy if they have a
choice than if they don't.
Bob (25:12):
We just give the example of people go OK, but I think
sometimes I'm not sure they takeit on board and maybe that's
because they don't necessarilybuy that way or don't realize
that they are buying in that way.
Jeremy (25:24):
Or the power in the organization is held in another
department.
Well, yes, it's held in pricing, trading, marketing.
Something else Do you remember?
We got an inquiry from a majorcoffee chain?
Oh, yes, and I was literallyhaving kittens going.
Wow, we're going to use which,we're going to sell a coffee and
say now, we've got three freshcakes in this morning.
Which one would you like to gowith your coffee?
(25:45):
We didn't even get to that.
All we did was the complaintstraining, and their highest
complaint was from commuters who, when the cake they had five
days a week was not in there,they would lose the plot with
them.
So they didn't even get thatright Amazing.
What I wanted to talk about was, in this history of behavioral
science, regardless of the studyand the intrigue and the
(26:07):
positioning it has to come outof a sales person's mouth, they
have to be, trained to look attheir language.
They have to be trained toperhaps change the default words
they would use.
And we must mention, in a sense, possibly I'm sure he wouldn't
know what we were talking about.
If we reanimated El Mawila andbrought him back to life and
said you were one of the firstbehavioral scientists, sales
(26:30):
trainers he'd go what do youmean?
So what he did was he wouldexperiment, he would go into
stores, try and buy wallets, tryand buy ties, all kind of
consumer fashion goods, foods,etc.
And he went off and created athing which he called his word
laboratory, because he realizedthat people weren't using
persuasive language.
He also was constantly tryingto position choice to consumers,
(26:52):
just as you said, by sayinghere's the facts which you're
going to have.
You're going to have themilkshake without the egg or
with, but he would have.
I know it's bizarre.
In the US there was a wholetrend of whipping it up with an
egg.
Right, which size are you goingto have?
All of these sorts of thingsLarge one, letting customers be
choosing a large drink over justa small one.
So I think it's still a greatbook that is under read, tested
(27:15):
sentences that sell.
You could listen to thispodcast and go okay, what is
behavioral science about?
How could I use it?
With my team, you could studythe language that's coming out
of people's mouth, because whatelmer said is that most people
are using language that isgrowing whiskers or shiny in the
seat.
It's just so out of date butit's wonderful.
It means they're just not evenconsidering the words they're
(27:37):
saying and how compelling andpersuasive they may be.
Bob (27:40):
I'm just thinking that many listeners won't have a clue who
elmer wheeler is.
Elmer wheeler was, as Jeremysays, one of the pioneers Of
sales training and saleslanguage.
He was active in the 30s, 40sand 50s, and if you go on to
YouTube and look up elmerwheeler, you will find some
(28:01):
black and white footage of himtalking about his various
principles.
They're well well worth a look.
Now, what, of course, haschanged since elmer's day is the
fact that those sorts of morebasic products, like wallets and
what have you, we now buyonline and we just see them and
order them and in they come.
And when it comes to somethinglarger, then we are in the hands
(28:24):
of the current combinedstrength of a marketing strategy
, campaigns, years sometimes ofbranding and the sales person,
their ability to translate thevalue of that brand for the
customer.
(28:44):
And I was reading a thing theother day and it really stood
out for me.
For years, years, you and I havebeen talking about the fact
that customers buy from theindividual because they like the
individual, this person's good.
They also think, well, thisperson's really good and they're
working for this company andthis company must be good and
the company has a reputation.
(29:05):
I'm gonna trust theirrecommendation because the whole
thing kind of ticks my qualityboxes and makes me feel that
this is a good thing, and theterm for this course is brand
anchoring.
If I feel an affinity with thebrand, either through marketing
or past experience or throughreputation, then actually to a
(29:26):
point, regardless of price, I'mmore likely to buy from this
brand because of that strength,and I think this is a huge
missing that, again, we've beentalking about for years, and in
the UK in particular, thereseems to be a block when it
comes to selling yourself and,very importantly, selling the
company, especially in B2B, butalso in B2C.
(29:48):
When do you hear anyone say letme just explain how the company
set up, how we work, what ourstrengths are, what is really
important for you to understandabout the way that we do our
work that has value.
Now in America, you and I knowthat the loyalty that people
feel for their organizations andhow they come across to
customers is essential, thatthey live and breathe it.
(30:10):
Even waiters in restaurantswill be very, very positive
about the place that they workfor.
If you're speaking to aprofessional sales person in the
US, they are ambassadors fortheir brands 100%, or they
wouldn't be doing the job,whereas I think over here we are
much more reticent when itcomes to even for you know
people I've known for years.
(30:30):
Let me just remind you a coupleof things you may have
forgotten.
The reason that we are where weare is that we do things this
way and we don't do enough brandanchoring to support the
strength of what it is we'reoffering.
Jeremy (30:42):
That's one of the reasons why internal marketing
communication to sell thecompany back to the employees
when you're a business of scaleis so important still, because
otherwise you get what we'vetalked about on other episodes
you get disloyal bonding, youget people slagging off the
organization, and so on and soon.
The other thing I thought Iwould talk about that is, I
would say, a behavioral sciencetrend that's come over the
(31:03):
pandemic period to where we arenow.
You've already mentioned thatwe go online more.
More of our research is doneonline before we speak to a
sales person.
So often when we're in a salestraining room and we're taking a
brief from a client, they'lltell us that they get inquiries
via their website.
People have come on and seeneither their business to
business service or theirbusiness consumer offering,
(31:25):
whatever it is, and one of thethings that they forgetting is
that they're already in whatchild in the cold in his second
book?
They're already in preswasion,which, of course, is persuasion
in advance of talking to thesales person.
And I think one example of thisthat is a really easy one for
people to grasp was two bedcompanies.
One decided to make the entirewebsite about Great economy bed
(31:50):
savings.
You're going to get a deal.
It was full of dollar signs,dollars dropping, imagery of
pounds coming down.
The whole thing as you logged on, the website started look for
bed.
It was economy was the onlything they put in your mind.
An alternative one they ran abeat a a b split test with was
only about comfort.
Luxury was full of pink clouds,feathers, floating, luxurious
(32:14):
thing.
What the preconditioning did,before they spoke to a sales
person, was the people lookingat the luxury, the comfort, were
more conditioned to spend moremoney on the bed.
The people looking at the dollarsigns, the dropping the pounds,
the savings, the sense, weremore conditioned to try to get a
deal.
Now, if you are engaging us oranother company, you're wanting
(32:34):
sales training.
What is the conditioning thatyou're doing in advance?
So that when people are lookingat your materials and in our
day, bob, they were looking atour business, to business
magazines, they were readingabout the company what's the
conditioning you're doing?
So when the inquiry comesthrough, you're trying to get a
person in a sort of mindset tohave the right conversation
(32:55):
because they're the right kindof buyer, rather than what we're
often dealing with company, say, does we keep getting the wrong
inquiries?
Bob (33:02):
And I think that's a lovely point, because the big chunk of
behavioral science is aroundlanguage and, as we know, we are
all creatures of habit and atthe beginning of all of our
training course to say look,this is what happens, these are
the habits that you're in, theseare the, the routines that you
have when you're talking to acustomer, and to some customers
(33:23):
that's going to work, to some itisn't.
And, as any type ofcommunicator, you've got to be
curious about what you say andhow you say it, because you know
that your ability to adapt Isgoing to make a big difference
to you.
Now I've got one great examplehere.
You just talked about the factthat that person comes through
and they they're presuaded to beinterested and they could be
(33:45):
face to face or sitting down.
I'm quite far along my journeyat this point.
Now we, ever since we started,have been talking about how do
you personalize what it isyou're selling to this person?
Okay, how are you describingthis to that person?
That represents the value tothem?
Simple personalization.
Now, many people that we traingo.
(34:06):
Well, I just think that's alittle bit much.
I'm no, that's really important.
And, in fact, if you go online,what are they doing on the
internet?
But trying to personalize therecommendation to suit your
habits, to suit your algorithm.
That's what you're trying to doas a salesperson.
So again, we've never called itbehavioral science.
We've called it asking theright questions to then create
(34:26):
the value statement for thatcustomer.
It's straightforward stuff butit is under done and people
think, well, I'm not sellingenough today it's because you're
not taking that motivation,asking the right questions and
personalizing yourrecommendation.
It is not that scientific, itis language based, is
conversation, it is some stuffwhich is much more about the
(34:50):
attitudinal shift in thatperson's head, because I think
behavioral science can predictonly so much.
It can't predict that you'regoing to get through to somebody
who has low energy, lowmotivation, low belief in their
products, low belief in theircompany, low belief in what
they're being paid, low beliefin their manager.
All of that comes acrossthrough a conversation and
that's something which isessential well, you hit on a
(35:12):
very important point.
Jeremy (35:13):
It's funny we've got about two or three clients
running at this time.
Where motivation is quite a keything is that they're feeling
pressured.
There's more competitors, pricepoints are sensitive, so We've
been asked to come in and doquite interesting sales training
when actually just try to makepeople feel better about their
product, their company, whatthey're doing, so you can be
(35:34):
distracted sometimes.
You know what you actually wantto invest in.
You try to invest in the veryspecialist sales training.
Are your leaders not excitingenough and motivating enough?
Where do you point it first?
I think the other thing that Iwould say is that if people are
thinking, oh, this behavioralscience, this could work for us,
what you might not be doing inthe very first instance is
(35:54):
trying to find out why customersbuy from you.
And even if we go away frombehavioral science, if we look
at the very first sort of hugebusiness pioneers who talked
post-war as the economies weregrowing, again the very basic
concept of studying demand,don't try and guess why people
are coming.
Are you keeping a clear recordof why people are coming to you
and what they're asking you?
(36:15):
If you just study that, thenyou know what's in people's
heads, the queries and questionsthey have, the concerns they
have, the desires they have, andyou can start to train your
salespeople to try to meetcurrent demand rather than
sticking with your existingtrain of thought.
Bob (36:31):
Now you have a great example of this that you told me
years ago, which I will praiseyou, and it's a great way of
showing how behavioral sciencecan be used on a team.
So you were selling something,it doesn't matter what it was.
There were a number ofdifferent things that were
available and the lowest thelowest was a £55 thing.
The sales manager came in oneday and said oh, we're stopping
(36:52):
doing the £55 quidder.
The lowest price is £110, offyou go.
So all day you sold everythingat £110, and then she said look,
I was winding you up.
Of course we still did the £55,but it just goes to show that
so many of you are selling thelowest cost every time.
Now, that is classic stuff, thatis, I want to make some sales,
I don't want to have to makemuch effort, so I'm just going
(37:13):
to get a few sales at the lowestprice.
Now, that is another elementwhere, as you said earlier, the
salesperson takes the decisionaway from the customer.
We have heard people in thelast year or two say to us
whatever is the lowest price thecompany are offering, that's
what I'm going to offer thecustomers.
Because why should I try andget more?
Well, that's because A youhaven't been trained,
(37:35):
incentivized and have the rightmotivation to do it.
But also it's because yourcompany, I'm afraid, doesn't
care enough to make that pointthat the lowest cost is a
last-ditch attempt to sell to acustomer and that most customers
will buy at this particularprice point.
There are people who just willnot believe that because they've
got the wrong attitude, thewrong motivation and no one's
(37:57):
actually explained to them howcommerce really works.
Jeremy (38:01):
And there it is One absolute fact, whether we call
it behavioral science orsomething else, is the first
price that you sell to acustomer is their initial
evaluation of you, yourorganization and what your
products were.
If that's a bronze product,you're selling them.
They've classified you asbronze and then when you come
back and say, hi, year two, nowdo you want to have gold?
(38:21):
The upsell of that isastronomically difficult.
Gyms have looked at this that ifsomebody joins at the lowest
amount to get them to takeeverything else in the gym, they
don't do it Clubs, servicelevels, car washes.
So it goes on, the habit thatyou get into and you have a long
customer conversation and yousell them a bronze.
You're going to have a lot ofbronze reselling and even
(38:46):
struggle to keep that.
So you're much better takingthe real time, as you said, to
personalize, to try tounderstand your customers and
also get rid of the customersthat you don't want.
I find that quite attractivethat if you're a business that
wants to revitalize yourself andyou realize that you've got
certain customers that are justnot good for you and that
rapport for morale andnon-profitable, then you need to
(39:08):
make a big decision anddiscontinue certain lines or
discontinue certain offeringsthat are not worth it.
So should we do three as themagic number?
Yeah, go for it.
Bob (39:24):
Ding, ding, ding.
I don't have three questionsfor you today.
I've got one question for you.
Jeremy (39:29):
Yeah, I've only got one as well.
Bob (39:30):
OK, so my question to you is if an organization was to
identify you through yourbehaviors as a particular type,
how would they define you?
Very good.
Jeremy (39:46):
I don't know what terms they'd use, but I think they
would.
They'd probably put variousbrands against me that they
think I could afford and wouldbe in the market for you know
that I'm sure they'd waitroseifyme.
Oh yeah, they'd Audi me.
They would talk about levels ofdisposable income.
They would come up with allsorts of stuff Some of it true,
some of it not of course I thinkyou've thrown them a bit with
(40:08):
the Audi.
Bob (40:09):
Yeah, you were Volvo for years, which was a very
different.
I was Volvo for years, but theymessed up.
There we go.
Jeremy (40:13):
Dogs, kids, countryside yeah, it's absolutely clear,
isn't it Lovely?
Bob (40:19):
You're actually.
You're a gold customer type forso many organizations.
No doubt about it, I am.
Jeremy (40:25):
And I wish they could try and sell to me.
So my question is different.
I want you to think of all thestuff that we have done over the
years in our sales trainingWithout knowing it or half
knowing it.
If we were to give ourlisteners now our biggest kind
of behavioral sales training tipthat they could test we're not
going to say it's going to work,but they could go and test this
(40:45):
because we've been trainingthis for years it's in the realm
of behavioral science.
Go do this.
What would your thing be?
Bob (40:53):
There's so many that I would immediately leap to.
I can stand back from that andjust say one thing that I have
observed is that when peoplehave a pretty standard
conversation, lots oforganizations go, wow, that's
outstanding and they have a goodopening, ask some great
(41:13):
questions.
They set an agenda, ask somegreat questions, put together
some value, handle an ejectionand close the sale Classic sale
people go, whoa, that'soutstanding, that's amazing.
And I think over the yearspeople have got used to average
as being good and I think thatthe truth is, if you are well
(41:34):
trained, you can have amazingconversations, because you and I
know what it's like to go intoa place or to bring up an
organization and go in for onething and come out with five and
go.
That was an incredibleexperience and I'm going to
recommend it to others.
That's so rare these days andit's a real tragedy, and I think
that the missed opportunity isto take average and make it
(41:57):
amazing.
So that's a broad look and theexamples of that I will give
there's so many that you couldleap to, but I think the one
that's given our conversationtoday is around the strength of
the organization and holdingyour price.
I think there's so little ofthat.
These days.
People are so ready to give adiscount, so reluctant to handle
(42:20):
the price objection, soreluctant to re-prove the value,
so reluctant to stand by theirbrand, so reluctant to say this
is amazing and these are thereasons why it works for you.
That's the area that I thinkpeople need much more strength
in, because I think that thebrands that do that now over the
next few years, that have arobust pricing strategy and I
(42:40):
can think of a few who are inthat situation right now brands
like Apple and Microsoft too ifyou want it, you want it why are
they the biggest companies onearth?
Because they don't discounthugely, they don't give things
away, they don't devalue theirbrands or their products.
Why aren't other brandslearning from that and thinking
okay, we need to have bettersalespeople selling at a higher
(43:01):
level at higher prices, becausewe're worth it and that's our
objective and we should stand bythat with some integrity.
I think if that area was lookedat, it would make such a
difference.
Jeremy (43:13):
That's great, nice, lovely.
If you want some resources forthis episode, I'd say check out
Elmer Wheeler, because in asense he was looking at the
science of language and thepower of saying the right thing.
Check out Dr Robert Cialdini,his book Pre-Swasion and also
the Six Weapons of Influence.
Check out Ogilvy.
They've actually got a tool ontheir website called Mindspace
(43:36):
where you can do ideation, whichis simply a sort of grand word
for coming up with ideas.
That's quite fun.
If you look at that, it's gotquite a bit of Cialdini's Six
Weapons of Influence in it.
But also, just read about this,try and get into it.
If you're doing your owninternal sales training, don't
just guess the behavioralscience, but even just the topic
(43:58):
, just even getting across topeople.
Let's ask our customers morequestions.
Let's study their patterns ofbehavior, let's study demand.
Just try to get curious aboutit, because it's here and it's
growing.
Bob (44:08):
I'd also steer you towards our own blog on
realitytrainingcom, which hashundreds of articles and posts
on all sorts of subjects, butloads around this about value
selling and things like that.
That's freely available to you.
Also, if you like to readsomething slightly more long
form.
Twice now we've done editionsof our book the Perfect Storm,
(44:29):
which was written at a timewhere the economy was going
through a tough period.
The Perfect Storm has 30different ways to drive your
business.
I would like to steer youtowards that, which is available
for a very low cost on Kindle.
Look for that.
So, ladies and gents, thanksfor listening.
This is a subject I know we'llbe returning to, but in the
meantime, thanks very much and,Jeremy, I will see you on
(44:51):
another podcast very soon.
Jeremy (44:53):
Yeah, cheers for now, bye.
Bob (45:04):
Bob and Jeremy's Conflat the reality podcast.
Bob and Jeremy's Conflab the reality podcast.
Jeremy (00:21):
Hello Bobby.
Greetings on this fine day soyou're standing there looking
like you've sort of come out ofa shower, had maybe just a cup
of coffee and only a banana.
I don't know, am I right?
Bob (00:35):
You're absolutely right.
That's my new regime which ischanging me from the middle aged
Camerjan.
I was into a slightly thinnermiddle aged Camerjan, so it's
good.
Jeremy (00:49):
So, ladies and gentlemen , just a banana and a coffee,
and you too can be like BobMorrell.
Bob (00:54):
And no cigarettes, very important, no, no no smoking, no
vaping.
Jeremy (00:59):
It's a filthy habit.
It's so funny.
You sometimes driving orwalking down a high street and
somebody just lets the vape go.
And it's as if they'vespontaneously humanly combusted.
This immense cloud of smokejust appears, and you think,
what are you doing?
Bob (01:14):
Well, I saw the other day it was on the news that lots of
young people are now moving fromvapes, which are obviously
things that you don't inhalewith tobacco, back to cigars,
which are going through a boon,and pipe smoking.
And that's really interesting.
I mean, I smoked pipe for years.
(01:34):
It's becoming very, verypopular again because I suppose
you inhale less with the pipeand if you're vaping you get
nicotine anyway and people arethinking what the hell?
Jeremy (01:43):
Pipes.
Young people holding pipe,younger people looking like
Harold Wilson.
Bob (01:48):
Well, you know, it's a very pleasant thing to smoke a pipe
because it's quite aromatic.
You don't have to sort of keepsmoking it like a cigarette.
You can put a pipe down andthen relight it.
It's a very clever thing.
This lead-in what we've justbeen talking about is actually
perfect for what we're talkingabout today.
Jeremy (02:03):
It is.
It really is.
Bob (02:05):
Because today, listeners, we're going to be talking about
sales training, which is, ofcourse, what we do for a living,
but, more importantly,behavioral science.
So what we've just been talkingabout there is a trend.
People go through trends.
I remember when vaping firstcame out, there was a huge trend
to vape even if you didn'tsmoke.
You know that's the odd thingabout vaping that people will
(02:27):
choose to vape rather than smoke, even if they never smoked
before.
It's a thing that people willthink oh, that looks quite cool,
or I like the look of that, orI like the taste of that, so
I'll give that a go.
And trends are very much part ofbehavioral science.
And we've been thinking aboutthis because we've been training
for over 20 years and more andmore the various areas of
(02:51):
behavioral science creep intowhat we do.
Because if you're sellingsomething, if you have a
business that is commercial,then it's important to think
well, what is it about what Ihave, what I'm selling that is
appealing to people, and whatare the things that are going to
make them buy?
But also, what are the habitssocially that people are engaged
(03:14):
with that are going to makethem more inclined to buy?
So we're going to spend a bitof time today thinking about
those things and comparing thedifferent elements of behavioral
science and some of the thingsthat we've read about it and
seeing where the connections arebetween various elements of
behavioral science and, ofcourse, how you sell things.
(03:34):
That's what we're really goingto be looking at.
Jeremy (03:36):
And you just were talking about trends.
It is definitely trending Lotsmore people writing about
behavioral science.
Previously they would just saysales psychology or the
psychology of selling.
I think we should start withletting people know what it is,
and I'm going to give you whichI like I looked at a few sort of
explanations.
This is the University ofChicago Booth and I'm in a booth
(04:00):
right now, my recording booth.
Bob (04:01):
Yes lovely.
Jeremy (04:02):
So this is what they say on their website.
They've got a whole school ofbehavioral science within their
business school.
It says behavioral sciencedescribes the study of human
behavior through the use ofsystematic experimentation and
observation.
Behavioral scientists studywhen and why individuals engage
in specific behaviors byexperimentally examining the
(04:23):
impact of factors such asconscious thoughts, motivation,
social influences, contextualeffects and habits.
And then, what I think is thelast bit to add to this, several
disciplines fall under thebroad label, including
anthropology, behavioraleconomics, cognitive psychology,
consumer behavior, socialpsychology, sociology, biology,
(04:45):
and so on and so on.
So have you got anything to addto help the listeners get what
behavioral science?
Bob (04:51):
is no, those are the five.
Well, you've given a number ofthe different behavioral
sciences.
Another University ofMassachusetts, Amherst, defines
behavioral science simplyeconomics, anthropology,
sociology, psychology andpolitical science.
So that's an interesting one,as well as biology insofar as it
(05:12):
deals with animal and humanbehavior.
So there's a number of elementsthere with which come into that
and actually you could arguethat all of those things cross
over at some point, becausepolitical science crosses over
the economics, sociology andpsychology will cross over.
Anthropology and biologydefinitely cross over, and so
there's various areas where youhave these different sciences.
Jeremy (05:35):
We'd even then go into biochemistry, wouldn't we,
because of different chemicalsin our brains being released and
so on.
Yeah, I mean, it's certainlycome a long way from Jungian
types or archetypes where whichtype you're selling to.
Let's look at them.
They introvert, they extrovertand all the other types and
Myers-Briggs I mean there's awhole school of stuff that you
can put into the sales trainingarena.
(05:57):
But we're looking at thisbehavioral science.
The other thing I think is nicefor listeners to know right at
the start, because one of theleading practitioners in this
space is Rory Sutherland, who isthe vice chairman at Ogilvy, of
course, following on from thatgreat name, david Ogilvy, and we
can talk about him more.
I've read all his books.
He's tremendous.
He says there's no rightanswers, but you're looking for
(06:21):
patterns.
And you see, if you're lookingfor patterns of behavior, then
that might, as you were saying,bob, at the start, that might
choose how you position yourproduct, position your brand,
timing of when you might offerit, what color, what style, what
size, and so on and so on andso on.
But what interests both of usis, instead, of behavioral
science staying only within therealm of marketeers and people
(06:42):
who work in advertising because,as we know, that world has
changed dramatically.
We're not all staring at ads inmagazines or being influenced
quite so much by advertising.
We can skip it on ourtelevisions, we can move past it
.
There's almost a trend to saywhat can we put into the mouths
of salespeople, what can we putinto the mouths of customer
(07:04):
service people?
So in their interactions withcustomers, both existing or
potential, they might have someinfluence.
And through understanding theymight have some influence and,
interestingly enough, notunderstanding behavioral science
, but just following a method,they might improve the outcome.
Bob (07:22):
So I like to add into that that if you're thinking about
the behaviors of customers andhow they interact with a brand
or a person or a sales person,what you're looking for is an
area of predictability.
So if you're looking for thosepatterns, then you think, ah, I
realize that this marketing,this question, this statement, I
(07:44):
can predict that a highernumber of people will find that
positive than something else.
And I was listening to a reallygood podcast.
It's the current today podcastwith Amarajan about politics,
and this links into thepolitical science element where,
of course, what's happened overthe last 50 years is a change
away from class into educationand relative wealth.
(08:11):
So if you go back 50 years, youcould predict pretty easily that
more working class people wouldvote Labour, more middle and
upper class would voteConservative, and that was a
kind of a set thing at that time.
Over the time, more and morepeople have moved, gone through
university education etc.
(08:31):
And have better education andearned more money than they
perhaps would have done 50 yearsago for the class that they're
in, because that's the way thatthe world's changed, and so that
predictability of who peopleare going to vote for has
changed hugely.
And of course, there's otherfactors, like Brexit and various
things like that, but that'sanother point that, as a brand,
(08:53):
if I'm looking for someone tosell my stuff to, I want to be
able to predict the type ofperson, the income type and act
accordingly.
Jeremy (09:04):
I mean, the political thing is fascinating about how
certain leaders, of course, canposition themselves as the right
vote for across all classes,all incomes.
Brexit vote was largely basedon one sort of factor, that or a
number of factors.
But yeah, we're not going downthat road quite so much as far
as political behavioural stuff.
(09:25):
So I was thinking of you and Iwere talking about, before
recording this, that actuallywhat we've been doing for some
years is elements of behaviouralscience in our sales training
anyway.
But we've never bothered to callit that because, that's become
the new phrase of it how toposition choice to people, how
to do all sorts of things andI've got a great example of this
(09:49):
.
Bob (09:49):
So a classic element of behavioural science is if you
are selling something incomparison to other companies.
So let's say there's fivecompanies up for a tender or a
large piece of work and eachcompany is going to present
their proposal, their quotation,to the customer.
(10:10):
There's a lot of behaviouralscience, psychology, around when
you should do that presentationand what it says is that,
statistically, if each companyis going one after the other
back to back, then you shouldalways be the first company to
present, because then everyother presentation is going to
be compared against yourbenchmark and that puts you in a
(10:30):
very good position.
However, if those presentationsare taking place over a week,
then you should be the lastcompany to present, because time
has gone on, people's decisionmaking will have formed over
time and then actually the lastone may be the trigger they want
.
Statistically, you're much morelikely to get it Now.
(10:51):
That is, someone studying salespresentations over years and
years and years and going OK,behaviourally, this is when you
need to present, if this is thesituation.
So that's statistically aclassic scenario.
But also you must understandthat statistically, that doesn't
follow every time that's goingto be the case, but more often
(11:11):
than not, let's say two thirdsof the time.
Jeremy (11:14):
So I was sticking with the idea that in the training
room, we brought in elements ofbehavioural science, which
either we've called how toposition yourself as the right
choice, and so on.
But let's not get away from thefact that vast amounts of
reasons why companies contact usand other people in the field
is they're struggling to justifya price.
They aren't making enough money, they want to sell their higher
(11:34):
priced products, they want tosell more of them, they want to
increase their average valueorder, they want to increase the
frequency of transaction, so onand so on and so on and so on.
So we tend to do our diagnosis,we listen, we see the various
habits that are taking placethat are not helping them and
arguably, we're in that room.
We're in, whatever the situation, is the program that we're in
which is trying to help a groupof people to be confident about
(11:58):
the prices that they wish tocharge.
And so what we're getting intois just as you've said right at
the start, is the who, who arethe best people who are most
likely to agree to this price?
And the vast challenge that Isee us coming up is not only
have we got the behavioralscience challenge of positioning
it to customers.
Most of what we're doing in thetraining room is working on the
(12:21):
brains of the people in theroom to be able to get them to
understand that their behaviorneeds to change so that they can
believe it is worth it.
And the most basic line thatwe've used for years is stop
taking decisions away fromcustomers.
But we have to go much deeperthan that, because the people
who are tasked with selling theproducts and services are
struggling to believe it isworth it.
Bob (12:43):
It's quite common for us to present a scenario as a regular
type of interaction, a regulartype of call, a regular type of
conversation, a classic scenariocustomer of some kind.
And so often someone will puttheir hand up or just chime in
and say, well, that's all verywell, but what about this type
(13:06):
of customer?
Yeah, and of course, whenyou're speaking to lots of
different customers, the onesthat stand out are the unusual
ones.
And yet that person has takenthat one example and says, well,
look, that's a behavioral shiftthat your example doesn't cater
for.
Yeah, and that's such a commonreaction to the kind of work
(13:27):
that we do, because that's thestandout and of course that's
unusual, so you shouldn'tnecessarily worry about that so
much.
But because all the others arefairly mundane and fairly
straightforward and same, verysamey, then it's easier for you
to latch on to that thing thatdoesn't quite fit that hole and
think, well, that's a big shift,it provides comfort.
Jeremy (13:48):
It's the curveball that people want to say is going to
be increasing in volume, whichwill make their job difficult
Rather than ignoring it.
It was a fairly fruitless,academic, theoretical discussion
we could have in the pubafterwards about oh, I had this
customer, did you?
How exciting.
Let's just look at the highfrequency types and focus our
behavior on them, Whereas peoplewill say, ah, but we do get
(14:11):
these customers.
You say this and we're sayingokay, okay, but it looks like
you are being anxious, you arebeing anchored back to a way of
thinking that is not going toserve you or serve the customer.
Bob (14:20):
So there's a really good question that anybody can ask.
If they're thinking abouteither their team or themselves
as a salesperson, where are thebehavioral insights linked to
the sales metrics?
So if you're not a salesmanager, you're not necessarily
seeing the metrics.
These are the types ofcustomers, these are the average
(14:41):
order value.
These are the typical salesthat we are making.
If I can't convey that to myteam in the right way, then all
they're going to think about arethe curveballs that come in and
think, well, that's abehavioral change.
No, that's a behavioral changefor that.
One or two examples that you'vegot.
There's 90 plus percent of thesales here, which are the true
(15:02):
behavioral insights.
These are the majority andthese are the ones that we can
do most with, and in fact,people should definitely
consider the Pareto principle80-20.
You know I'm sure that applieshere where 20% of your customers
will account for 80% of yourrevenue.
Those 20% will be the highestspending accounts or customers
that you should be focusing inon, and there will be a
(15:24):
similarity in behavior fromthose people, broadly speaking.
And then everybody else.
You know lots and lots ofcustomers.
They will be spending muchsmaller amounts and maybe there
will be some curveballs withinthem.
But you know, you've got tothink about what is the majority
, or what are the highestspenders, or what are their
characteristics.
That's the true sales metric.
Jeremy (15:45):
And I think the other thing is that what you believe
as an owner, what you believe asa product maker, inventor,
engineer, may not be the casewhatsoever.
Rory Sutherland does give avery good example.
You can play the video on hiswebsite where he tries to
explain what behavioral scienceis and he talks about pizza
(16:05):
delivery.
And he says a company believesthe only way that they'll get
better and better is fasterpizza delivery.
But when they do some researchand say to customers, if you
were to order it and we gave youa definite time and the time
was longer away and all thatwould mean is you might need to
order it a little bit in advance, would that be OK?
Nearly all customers, in factmore, said yes.
(16:27):
If you said, ring us at eightand we'll say we'll get a pizza
two at nine, is that OK?
Ring us at seven, we'll get apizza two at eight, yeah, that's
fine.
So it isn't believing becauseyou think well, pizza delivery
is quick, it was invented byspeed of delivery.
But if I ring for a pizza atseven and they say, yeah, we'll
drop it round at eight andthat's fine for me, then that is
absolutely fine.
(16:48):
So that's a good example of notfollowing your own thoughts,
but actually asking yourcustomers do you mind?
How would you feel if we gaveyou a specific time slot, and so
on, and so on, and so on.
So it's a very good example.
And the other thing that RorySullivan continually says is
that behavioral science isallowing yourself to not think.
You have to be rational andfollow some existing logic.
(17:08):
Let's look at what is out there.
Let's ask people questions.
You see other things.
Sales people don't askcustomers does this matter or
does this matter?
They've made a decisionthemselves and beat themselves
up trying to achieve a targetthat isn't worth measuring.
Bob (17:22):
Now that brings me on to something you mentioned earlier,
the connection to marketing.
So one of the behavioralscience sales examples which is
often talked about and I've readit on about five websites is
what they call the principle ofa decoy.
Now, for years you and I havebeen training this as a
reciprocal concession.
Jeremy (17:42):
Which is the language of Dr Robert Cialdini.
Bob (17:44):
Absolutely.
I read this the other day where, if you go into the cinema and
you buy popcorn, there'll be amedium carton of popcorn,
there'll be a large and they'llbe within a pound of each other.
You'll go for the large andthere'll also be an extra large,
which would be way more Okay,way more, but you get way more
popcorn.
(18:04):
Now the idea of that is to makemore people buy the middle
option because you think, well,that's ridiculous, so I'm not
going to go for the smaller one,I'm going to go right in the
middle.
It's a simple way to guidepeople to buy a bit more popcorn
than they probably need, andthey probably sell a few of the
big ones too.
But the point is that we weretraining that for years, as if
(18:25):
you offer everyone everything ora massive amount of stuff.
They may love it, but they'regoing.
That's not quite right for us,but we'll go for the notch down
and we'll have it.
You, it's gold, it's platinumgold.
So if you offer people lots ofplatinum, you'll sell way more
gold.
Jeremy (18:40):
We could argue that Robert Cialdini is really
putting forward in his mostimportant work influence, the
six weapons of persuasion he'sputting forward in a sense
behavioral science, things totest.
You know, how can we testlikeability, how can we test
social proof, and so on.
The other thing that he saysabout that reciprocal concession
is if you stop people in thestreet and say hi, would you
(19:01):
volunteer for one week a year ata special school where you go
in and do reading?
People go a week.
He goes, okay, would you justdo one day a year?
People go, yeah, sure, and Iused to give the.
I don't know if you rememberthis.
I used to give the thing aboutAngela, my mother-in-law, saying
Angela, could you have my threekids for a week so Tash and I
can go away?
Jeremy, yours are quite ahandful, a whole, or could you
(19:25):
just have them over the weekend?
And that's a reciprocalconcession.
That is behavioral science.
Bob (19:31):
Well, you could argue, in that case, in that example, it's
manipulation.
Yeah, I know, I know, I know.
Jeremy (19:37):
Well, that's a very good point to bring up is that we
know if we're doing things in adodgy way and we get people
excited about things we canmanipulate.
Years ago we learned about atechnique, and I don't know if
you remember what thetechnique's called.
So a customer asks about theprice of something, you say it's
more, but we'll check.
And when you return fromchecking it's different.
(19:59):
So you say, how much is thatdress in the window?
And I say, oh, that lovelylittle black dress.
Yeah, that's £285.
I'll just go and see.
Are you a 12?
Yeah, bear with me, I'll justgo and see if we've got one.
And you come back and say I wascompletely wrong, it's £180.
So you think I've got £100 off.
Bob (20:15):
Yeah, that is manipulative, totally manipulative.
Jeremy (20:17):
I don't know what that was called.
Price conditioning yeah, priceconditioning, price conditioning
, which is?
And that that's the point aboutbehavioral science.
I'm sure that there are peoplewho can use it to manipulate
customers' choices very much.
You're listening to Bob andJeremy's.
Bob (20:31):
Conflab brought to you by Reality Training, selling
certainty.
We're a leading training andcoaching company based in the UK
.
For information on how we helpour clients improve their
businesses, check out ourwebsite, realitytrainingcom.
(20:53):
Now we're talking a bit aboutpricing here, and I think it's
really important to make thiscase as well.
Many brands will set pricinglevels, especially if they have
a range of products, and in theback of their brain will be this
thought that, and the good newsis we've got people on the
(21:15):
phone or face-to-face who havethe skill to upsell the customer
from the level that they'retalking about.
Now I think over the years thatthat behavioural science has
definitely shifted.
If you think about the seniorsort of trading level of
organisations who are looking atthe people who are on the front
line, I wonder do they think tothemselves well, the good news
(21:38):
is we've got some great peoplehere who've got great skill at
upselling and therefore,whatever level we pitch this at,
there's a chance of enhancingthat?
Or do they think actually wehaven't got a lot of faith in
our people at all becausethey're under-trained or
underskilled and therefore we'regoing to make sure that the
price point is such that theredoesn't need to be any upsell,
(22:01):
which is a terrible behaviouraljudgement on your own people,
actually, and shows that you'veunder-invested in them, if
you're choosing price points atwhich your people are
essentially taking orders,rather than engaging in a good
customer experience, which givesthe opportunity to upsell.
So I think that's another cleardifferentiation.
Jeremy (22:20):
We could argue that the entire thing about price and
teams whatever they callthemselves trading teams look at
the marketplace, decide whatoffers to bundle together.
What will be more persuasive?
Which pattern of these threeoffers will be most likely taken
up over this Easter weekend?
What are the price points we'regoing to suggest?
(22:42):
And, of course, interestinglyenough, they don't test for long
enough.
Usually it's a short-term thingand they hope it just has a
spike in sales and then they'llcome up with something else.
But I think what sales people inthe sales training room in the
scenario of price is we'reencouraging people to downsell,
which is kind of the trend thatwe have done in sales training.
(23:03):
As we've not really trainedupsell, we've said look, this is
perfect for you based oneverything you've told me.
You need these four things andthey're going four things.
I just was ringing you today totalk about one thing.
Well, having talked to you, youneed that, that, that and that
you don't just need the sheet,you need the duvet cover.
You want the pillowcases, youknow, and the throw, you know.
Bob (23:22):
People are buying bedclothes all the time.
Oh, absolutely.
Now what that also links to andthat's another key sell
psychology, which again isunderused.
For years, for 20 years now,you and I have been training
alternative closing, alternativeopenings, which the psychology
of which it is the, and stillremains, the most underused
(23:44):
question in sales all the time.
Not enough people, even if theyhave a range of products, not
enough people are making clearcomparisons and saying which of
these would you like, ratherthan do you just want this?
Now, that is an interestingbehavioral science thing,
because if that's the case, as aconsumer, I like to make a
selection, I like to have theluxury of choice.
(24:05):
Why aren't you giving it to me?
And if you are giving it to me,why aren't you making it
explicit and clear that that ismy choice?
And again, that comes down tolanguage Are these people who
are having these conversationsskilled enough to show the
different options and then helpthat customer to make a clear
choice?
Because, if we think about theinternet and the way that
(24:28):
behavioral science has changedthe way that we buy things, we
are now going online, looking atproducts online, looking at
what the different things are,the website service people who
looked at this also looked atthis thing as well.
You can make a comparison ofthese two things here.
The internet absolutely helpsus make those choices.
So, therefore, where is theskill in the individual to go?
(24:51):
Ok, there are two major optionsfor you here, and I want to
make sure you're clear on bothof them.
Jeremy (24:55):
And then you have the choice.
Bob (24:57):
Yes, you still have the choice, you can make that
selection, and that is againsomething we've been training
for years and years and in someways I wish we had said here's a
really fascinating piece ofbehavioral science.
Jeremy (25:09):
People are much more likely to buy if they have a
choice than if they don't.
Bob (25:12):
We just give the example of people go OK, but I think
sometimes I'm not sure they takeit on board and maybe that's
because they don't necessarilybuy that way or don't realize
that they are buying in that way.
Jeremy (25:24):
Or the power in the organization is held in another
department.
Well, yes, it's held in pricing, trading, marketing.
Something else Do you remember?
We got an inquiry from a majorcoffee chain?
Oh, yes, and I was literallyhaving kittens going.
Wow, we're going to use which,we're going to sell a coffee and
say now, we've got three freshcakes in this morning.
Which one would you like to gowith your coffee?
(25:45):
We didn't even get to that.
All we did was the complaintstraining, and their highest
complaint was from commuters who, when the cake they had five
days a week was not in there,they would lose the plot with
them.
So they didn't even get thatright Amazing.
What I wanted to talk about was, in this history of behavioral
science, regardless of the studyand the intrigue and the
(26:07):
positioning it has to come outof a sales person's mouth, they
have to be, trained to look attheir language.
They have to be trained toperhaps change the default words
they would use.
And we must mention, in a sense, possibly I'm sure he wouldn't
know what we were talking about.
If we reanimated El Mawila andbrought him back to life and
said you were one of the firstbehavioral scientists, sales
(26:30):
trainers he'd go what do youmean?
So what he did was he wouldexperiment, he would go into
stores, try and buy wallets, tryand buy ties, all kind of
consumer fashion goods, foods,etc.
And he went off and created athing which he called his word
laboratory, because he realizedthat people weren't using
persuasive language.
He also was constantly tryingto position choice to consumers,
(26:52):
just as you said, by sayinghere's the facts which you're
going to have.
You're going to have themilkshake without the egg or
with, but he would have.
I know it's bizarre.
In the US there was a wholetrend of whipping it up with an
egg.
Right, which size are you goingto have?
All of these sorts of thingsLarge one, letting customers be
choosing a large drink over justa small one.
So I think it's still a greatbook that is under read, tested
(27:15):
sentences that sell.
You could listen to thispodcast and go okay, what is
behavioral science about?
How could I use it?
With my team, you could studythe language that's coming out
of people's mouth, because whatelmer said is that most people
are using language that isgrowing whiskers or shiny in the
seat.
It's just so out of date butit's wonderful.
It means they're just not evenconsidering the words they're
(27:37):
saying and how compelling andpersuasive they may be.
Bob (27:40):
I'm just thinking that many listeners won't have a clue who
elmer wheeler is.
Elmer wheeler was, as Jeremysays, one of the pioneers Of
sales training and saleslanguage.
He was active in the 30s, 40sand 50s, and if you go on to
YouTube and look up elmerwheeler, you will find some
(28:01):
black and white footage of himtalking about his various
principles.
They're well well worth a look.
Now, what, of course, haschanged since elmer's day is the
fact that those sorts of morebasic products, like wallets and
what have you, we now buyonline and we just see them and
order them and in they come.
And when it comes to somethinglarger, then we are in the hands
(28:24):
of the current combinedstrength of a marketing strategy
, campaigns, years sometimes ofbranding and the sales person,
their ability to translate thevalue of that brand for the
customer.
(28:44):
And I was reading a thing theother day and it really stood
out for me.
For years, years, you and I havebeen talking about the fact
that customers buy from theindividual because they like the
individual, this person's good.
They also think, well, thisperson's really good and they're
working for this company andthis company must be good and
the company has a reputation.
(29:05):
I'm gonna trust theirrecommendation because the whole
thing kind of ticks my qualityboxes and makes me feel that
this is a good thing, and theterm for this course is brand
anchoring.
If I feel an affinity with thebrand, either through marketing
or past experience or throughreputation, then actually to a
(29:26):
point, regardless of price, I'mmore likely to buy from this
brand because of that strength,and I think this is a huge
missing that, again, we've beentalking about for years, and in
the UK in particular, thereseems to be a block when it
comes to selling yourself and,very importantly, selling the
company, especially in B2B, butalso in B2C.
(29:48):
When do you hear anyone say letme just explain how the company
set up, how we work, what ourstrengths are, what is really
important for you to understandabout the way that we do our
work that has value.
Now in America, you and I knowthat the loyalty that people
feel for their organizations andhow they come across to
customers is essential, thatthey live and breathe it.
(30:10):
Even waiters in restaurantswill be very, very positive
about the place that they workfor.
If you're speaking to aprofessional sales person in the
US, they are ambassadors fortheir brands 100%, or they
wouldn't be doing the job,whereas I think over here we are
much more reticent when itcomes to even for you know
people I've known for years.
(30:30):
Let me just remind you a coupleof things you may have
forgotten.
The reason that we are where weare is that we do things this
way and we don't do enough brandanchoring to support the
strength of what it is we'reoffering.
Jeremy (30:42):
That's one of the reasons why internal marketing
communication to sell thecompany back to the employees
when you're a business of scaleis so important still, because
otherwise you get what we'vetalked about on other episodes
you get disloyal bonding, youget people slagging off the
organization, and so on and soon.
The other thing I thought Iwould talk about that is, I
would say, a behavioral sciencetrend that's come over the
(31:03):
pandemic period to where we arenow.
You've already mentioned thatwe go online more.
More of our research is doneonline before we speak to a
sales person.
So often when we're in a salestraining room and we're taking a
brief from a client, they'lltell us that they get inquiries
via their website.
People have come on and seeneither their business to
business service or theirbusiness consumer offering,
(31:25):
whatever it is, and one of thethings that they forgetting is
that they're already in whatchild in the cold in his second
book?
They're already in preswasion,which, of course, is persuasion
in advance of talking to thesales person.
And I think one example of thisthat is a really easy one for
people to grasp was two bedcompanies.
One decided to make the entirewebsite about Great economy bed
(31:50):
savings.
You're going to get a deal.
It was full of dollar signs,dollars dropping, imagery of
pounds coming down.
The whole thing as you logged on, the website started look for
bed.
It was economy was the onlything they put in your mind.
An alternative one they ran abeat a a b split test with was
only about comfort.
Luxury was full of pink clouds,feathers, floating, luxurious
(32:14):
thing.
What the preconditioning did,before they spoke to a sales
person, was the people lookingat the luxury, the comfort, were
more conditioned to spend moremoney on the bed.
The people looking at the dollarsigns, the dropping the pounds,
the savings, the sense, weremore conditioned to try to get a
deal.
Now, if you are engaging us oranother company, you're wanting
(32:34):
sales training.
What is the conditioning thatyou're doing in advance?
So that when people are lookingat your materials and in our
day, bob, they were looking atour business, to business
magazines, they were readingabout the company what's the
conditioning you're doing?
So when the inquiry comesthrough, you're trying to get a
person in a sort of mindset tohave the right conversation
(32:55):
because they're the right kindof buyer, rather than what we're
often dealing with company, say, does we keep getting the wrong
inquiries?
Bob (33:02):
And I think that's a lovely point, because the big chunk of
behavioral science is aroundlanguage and, as we know, we are
all creatures of habit and atthe beginning of all of our
training course to say look,this is what happens, these are
the habits that you're in, theseare the, the routines that you
have when you're talking to acustomer, and to some customers
(33:23):
that's going to work, to some itisn't.
And, as any type ofcommunicator, you've got to be
curious about what you say andhow you say it, because you know
that your ability to adapt Isgoing to make a big difference
to you.
Now I've got one great examplehere.
You just talked about the factthat that person comes through
and they they're presuaded to beinterested and they could be
(33:45):
face to face or sitting down.
I'm quite far along my journeyat this point.
Now we, ever since we started,have been talking about how do
you personalize what it isyou're selling to this person?
Okay, how are you describingthis to that person?
That represents the value tothem?
Simple personalization.
Now, many people that we traingo.
(34:06):
Well, I just think that's alittle bit much.
I'm no, that's really important.
And, in fact, if you go online,what are they doing on the
internet?
But trying to personalize therecommendation to suit your
habits, to suit your algorithm.
That's what you're trying to doas a salesperson.
So again, we've never called itbehavioral science.
We've called it asking theright questions to then create
(34:26):
the value statement for thatcustomer.
It's straightforward stuff butit is under done and people
think, well, I'm not sellingenough today it's because you're
not taking that motivation,asking the right questions and
personalizing yourrecommendation.
It is not that scientific, itis language based, is
conversation, it is some stuffwhich is much more about the
(34:50):
attitudinal shift in thatperson's head, because I think
behavioral science can predictonly so much.
It can't predict that you'regoing to get through to somebody
who has low energy, lowmotivation, low belief in their
products, low belief in theircompany, low belief in what
they're being paid, low beliefin their manager.
All of that comes acrossthrough a conversation and
that's something which isessential well, you hit on a
(35:12):
very important point.
Jeremy (35:13):
It's funny we've got about two or three clients
running at this time.
Where motivation is quite a keything is that they're feeling
pressured.
There's more competitors, pricepoints are sensitive, so We've
been asked to come in and doquite interesting sales training
when actually just try to makepeople feel better about their
product, their company, whatthey're doing, so you can be
(35:34):
distracted sometimes.
You know what you actually wantto invest in.
You try to invest in the veryspecialist sales training.
Are your leaders not excitingenough and motivating enough?
Where do you point it first?
I think the other thing that Iwould say is that if people are
thinking, oh, this behavioralscience, this could work for us,
what you might not be doing inthe very first instance is
(35:54):
trying to find out why customersbuy from you.
And even if we go away frombehavioral science, if we look
at the very first sort of hugebusiness pioneers who talked
post-war as the economies weregrowing, again the very basic
concept of studying demand,don't try and guess why people
are coming.
Are you keeping a clear recordof why people are coming to you
and what they're asking you?
(36:15):
If you just study that, thenyou know what's in people's
heads, the queries and questionsthey have, the concerns they
have, the desires they have, andyou can start to train your
salespeople to try to meetcurrent demand rather than
sticking with your existingtrain of thought.
Bob (36:31):
Now you have a great example of this that you told me
years ago, which I will praiseyou, and it's a great way of
showing how behavioral sciencecan be used on a team.
So you were selling something,it doesn't matter what it was.
There were a number ofdifferent things that were
available and the lowest thelowest was a £55 thing.
The sales manager came in oneday and said oh, we're stopping
(36:52):
doing the £55 quidder.
The lowest price is £110, offyou go.
So all day you sold everythingat £110, and then she said look,
I was winding you up.
Of course we still did the £55,but it just goes to show that
so many of you are selling thelowest cost every time.
Now, that is classic stuff, thatis, I want to make some sales,
I don't want to have to makemuch effort, so I'm just going
(37:13):
to get a few sales at the lowestprice.
Now, that is another elementwhere, as you said earlier, the
salesperson takes the decisionaway from the customer.
We have heard people in thelast year or two say to us
whatever is the lowest price thecompany are offering, that's
what I'm going to offer thecustomers.
Because why should I try andget more?
Well, that's because A youhaven't been trained,
(37:35):
incentivized and have the rightmotivation to do it.
But also it's because yourcompany, I'm afraid, doesn't
care enough to make that pointthat the lowest cost is a
last-ditch attempt to sell to acustomer and that most customers
will buy at this particularprice point.
There are people who just willnot believe that because they've
got the wrong attitude, thewrong motivation and no one's
(37:57):
actually explained to them howcommerce really works.
Jeremy (38:01):
And there it is One absolute fact, whether we call
it behavioral science orsomething else, is the first
price that you sell to acustomer is their initial
evaluation of you, yourorganization and what your
products were.
If that's a bronze product,you're selling them.
They've classified you asbronze and then when you come
back and say, hi, year two, nowdo you want to have gold?
(38:21):
The upsell of that isastronomically difficult.
Gyms have looked at this that ifsomebody joins at the lowest
amount to get them to takeeverything else in the gym, they
don't do it Clubs, servicelevels, car washes.
So it goes on, the habit thatyou get into and you have a long
customer conversation and yousell them a bronze.
You're going to have a lot ofbronze reselling and even
(38:46):
struggle to keep that.
So you're much better takingthe real time, as you said, to
personalize, to try tounderstand your customers and
also get rid of the customersthat you don't want.
I find that quite attractivethat if you're a business that
wants to revitalize yourself andyou realize that you've got
certain customers that are justnot good for you and that
rapport for morale andnon-profitable, then you need to
(39:08):
make a big decision anddiscontinue certain lines or
discontinue certain offeringsthat are not worth it.
So should we do three as themagic number?
Yeah, go for it.
Bob (39:24):
Ding, ding, ding.
I don't have three questionsfor you today.
I've got one question for you.
Jeremy (39:29):
Yeah, I've only got one as well.
Bob (39:30):
OK, so my question to you is if an organization was to
identify you through yourbehaviors as a particular type,
how would they define you?
Very good.
Jeremy (39:46):
I don't know what terms they'd use, but I think they
would.
They'd probably put variousbrands against me that they
think I could afford and wouldbe in the market for you know
that I'm sure they'd waitroseifyme.
Oh yeah, they'd Audi me.
They would talk about levels ofdisposable income.
They would come up with allsorts of stuff Some of it true,
some of it not of course I thinkyou've thrown them a bit with
(40:08):
the Audi.
Bob (40:09):
Yeah, you were Volvo for years, which was a very
different.
I was Volvo for years, but theymessed up.
There we go.
Jeremy (40:13):
Dogs, kids, countryside yeah, it's absolutely clear,
isn't it Lovely?
Bob (40:19):
You're actually.
You're a gold customer type forso many organizations.
No doubt about it, I am.
Jeremy (40:25):
And I wish they could try and sell to me.
So my question is different.
I want you to think of all thestuff that we have done over the
years in our sales trainingWithout knowing it or half
knowing it.
If we were to give ourlisteners now our biggest kind
of behavioral sales training tipthat they could test we're not
going to say it's going to work,but they could go and test this
(40:45):
because we've been trainingthis for years it's in the realm
of behavioral science.
Go do this.
What would your thing be?
Bob (40:53):
There's so many that I would immediately leap to.
I can stand back from that andjust say one thing that I have
observed is that when peoplehave a pretty standard
conversation, lots oforganizations go, wow, that's
outstanding and they have a goodopening, ask some great
(41:13):
questions.
They set an agenda, ask somegreat questions, put together
some value, handle an ejectionand close the sale Classic sale
people go, whoa, that'soutstanding, that's amazing.
And I think over the yearspeople have got used to average
as being good and I think thatthe truth is, if you are well
(41:34):
trained, you can have amazingconversations, because you and I
know what it's like to go intoa place or to bring up an
organization and go in for onething and come out with five and
go.
That was an incredibleexperience and I'm going to
recommend it to others.
That's so rare these days andit's a real tragedy, and I think
that the missed opportunity isto take average and make it
(41:57):
amazing.
So that's a broad look and theexamples of that I will give
there's so many that you couldleap to, but I think the one
that's given our conversationtoday is around the strength of
the organization and holdingyour price.
I think there's so little ofthat.
These days.
People are so ready to give adiscount, so reluctant to handle
(42:20):
the price objection, soreluctant to re-prove the value,
so reluctant to stand by theirbrand, so reluctant to say this
is amazing and these are thereasons why it works for you.
That's the area that I thinkpeople need much more strength
in, because I think that thebrands that do that now over the
next few years, that have arobust pricing strategy and I
(42:40):
can think of a few who are inthat situation right now brands
like Apple and Microsoft too ifyou want it, you want it why are
they the biggest companies onearth?
Because they don't discounthugely, they don't give things
away, they don't devalue theirbrands or their products.
Why aren't other brandslearning from that and thinking
okay, we need to have bettersalespeople selling at a higher
(43:01):
level at higher prices, becausewe're worth it and that's our
objective and we should stand bythat with some integrity.
I think if that area was lookedat, it would make such a
difference.
Jeremy (43:13):
That's great, nice, lovely.
If you want some resources forthis episode, I'd say check out
Elmer Wheeler, because in asense he was looking at the
science of language and thepower of saying the right thing.
Check out Dr Robert Cialdini,his book Pre-Swasion and also
the Six Weapons of Influence.
Check out Ogilvy.
They've actually got a tool ontheir website called Mindspace
(43:36):
where you can do ideation, whichis simply a sort of grand word
for coming up with ideas.
That's quite fun.
If you look at that, it's gotquite a bit of Cialdini's Six
Weapons of Influence in it.
But also, just read about this,try and get into it.
If you're doing your owninternal sales training, don't
just guess the behavioralscience, but even just the topic
(43:58):
, just even getting across topeople.
Let's ask our customers morequestions.
Let's study their patterns ofbehavior, let's study demand.
Just try to get curious aboutit, because it's here and it's
growing.
Bob (44:08):
I'd also steer you towards our own blog on
realitytrainingcom, which hashundreds of articles and posts
on all sorts of subjects, butloads around this about value
selling and things like that.
That's freely available to you.
Also, if you like to readsomething slightly more long
form.
Twice now we've done editionsof our book the Perfect Storm,
(44:29):
which was written at a timewhere the economy was going
through a tough period.
The Perfect Storm has 30different ways to drive your
business.
I would like to steer youtowards that, which is available
for a very low cost on Kindle.
Look for that.
So, ladies and gents, thanksfor listening.
This is a subject I know we'llbe returning to, but in the
meantime, thanks very much and,Jeremy, I will see you on
(44:51):
another podcast very soon.
Jeremy (44:53):
Yeah, cheers for now, bye.
Bob (45:04):
Bob and Jeremy's Conflat the reality podcast.
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