May 14, 2024 • 29 mins
Senior Managers have an important question to answer – what development is going to make them better at what they do? Or do they need any at all?
Unlock the full potential of senior leadership with expert insights from Bob & Jeremy, executive coaches who bring to life the varied activities that are available. This episode promises an eye-opening journey through the world of senior management development, weighing the benefits of various growth strategies. They probe the effectiveness of conventional methods like intensive therapy and elite programmes, as well as the transformative potential of less orthodox approaches, including team-building missions across the globe. As they scrutinise these diverse options, they also ponder the controversial notion that maybe, for some executives, the best development strategy might be no structured development at all.
They also debate whether relying on the tried-and-true instincts that have guided seasoned professionals throughout their careers is more valuable than chasing the latest innovations? Bob & Jeremy lend their rich perspective of years of senior coaching to reveal how a blend of harrowing deadlines and common sense shapes different management styles and, ultimately, the fate of an organisation's success.
Finally, they illuminate the avenues for nurturing creativity and innovation in senior leadership roles, crucial elements for sidestepping the pitfalls of organisational complacency. They delve into the authenticity of senior management development experiences, highlighting the importance of continuous self-improvement in an ever-evolving marketplace. By the end of the discussion, you'll be equipped with a clearer vision for the most effective development paths for you or your organisation's senior management, ensuring that leaders are not just well-trained, but truly transformational, and motivated.
For more info, free resources, useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Bob and Jeremy's Conflap the Reality Podcast.
So, jeremy, you've been inbusiness now for 25-odd years
with your own business and then,prior to that, you had your own
career.
That's right.
We think you've reached a pointnow where you've got a number
(00:31):
of options and I just want toput them to you.
Now.
You can go and have sometherapy, and I think that's not
a bad idea for you.
Go in and have some deeptherapy.
We could spend a lot of moneyto send you on a management
development program with one ofthe major institutions.
I think you might enjoy that.
We could do some executivecoaching, one-to-one with you to
(00:56):
help you develop yourself basedon your knowledge and
experience.
We could send you on a totallymeaningless team building
exercise to go and help somebodyabroad.
That's something that you mightenjoy.
Or you can just carry on as youare and have no development
whatsoever.
So what do you think would bethe kind of option for you there
?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, it's very interesting.
Yeah, Am I being given a budgetfor this?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Well, yes, I mean, the budget is anything you want
to spend because you're senior.
So when it comes to developmentbudgets, the coffers are open,
whereas if it's a frontlineperson who's earning 20,000 a
year, we hardly spend anythingon them, that's true.
But for you we can spend waymore.
So that is the theme of ourpodcast today.
Ladies and gentlemen, seniormanagement development options
(01:47):
what do you?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
do.
What do you do next?
You're listening to Bob andJeremy's Conf Lab, brought to
you by Reality Training sellingcertainty.
We're a leading training andcoaching company based in the UK
.
For information on how we couldhelp you improve your business,
(02:08):
check out our website atrealitytrainingcom.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
If you're a senior manager, your time is valuable
and therefore anything that youdo which is there to develop you
values that time to the fullestextent.
So if you have to go somewhere,then it's all paid for
Absolutely.
If you have to have coaching ortherapy, you have it in your
(02:40):
working hours, which, on yourhigh salary, is definitely a few
hundred pounds an hour plus thefee.
If you're going to go and domeaningless team building in
affording invisible streams, Iwas thinking about the team
building, and if we look at ourepisode on team building, we go
into some detail on some of theslightly more pointless things
(03:03):
that one can do from teambuilding.
Senior team building can bemeaningless, but it can also be.
Let's go and spend some time ina third world country building
something.
Now, I have no problem with thatobjective.
I do have a problem with thedevelopment things that come
from it.
I really think that that isquestionable Because of course
(03:24):
you can go over and have anamazing experience and bond with
some people and give somethingback, and I think all of that is
admirable.
I really do.
I don't like the idea that itcomes under the heading of a
development program.
I think that's a hook to hangthe title on, but I actually
think it doesn't mean much.
I think it's the kind of thingthat one should do anyway.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
If you're a large corporation worth hundreds of
millions of pounds, you shouldbe going abroad and helping
other people.
Of course you should.
It should be a natural thingyou should do.
You shouldn't do it as a kindof a smoke screen to develop
your executives because, a whatthey're going to get from it is
questionable and, b that's noteveryone's cup of tea.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So in your opening you talk about various options
or do nothing.
The question before that is whyare we talking about this?
Why do senior executives need?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
developing.
It's a good question and that'swhy I've put nothing in,
because I think for some peoplenothing is actually a pretty
good option.
But I think, if you think aboutmost of the work that we do,
it's frontline people, it's teamleaders, it's sales managers,
it's sales directors, it'soperational people in the main.
(04:38):
And then occasionally we doexecutive coaching with very
senior people and that's one-toto one and quite intensive.
Part of the issue with thosevery senior people is what.
What can they do?
Yeah, you know, let's imagineyou've got 40, 45 plus, you're
in a director position, you'reearning good money, and the
(05:00):
subject matter for lots of thosecoaching sessions are things
like work-life balance, personalimpact, personal growth,
presentation skills leadership,Developing the next wave all
that stuff.
Yeah, so those are the kind ofthemes that we're dealing with,
but that's just one thing.
(05:20):
Executive coaching is, by itsvery nature nature, a one-to-one
personal intervention.
But then you look at what elsethere is I think, why this topic
interests me.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
You know what do you do with senior people who kind
of don't want or need training?
The very fact is, all thesenior people hold the budget
responsibility yeah so thelargest investment I was looking
up interesting writer victVictor Lipman.
He's written a couple of booksand he writes about this topic.
This is his thing.
Where's the training pie?
(05:52):
And is all the budgetaryresponsibility and where the
money can be spent is held bythose people.
So they spend as you said atthe beginning.
They spend less on the peopleat the front line.
His assertion, and many others,is that all the investment
should go at first levelmanagers.
So that they start their careerwith the best possible training.
(06:14):
What they learn then they canuse for years, and so on, and so
on, and so on.
However, a lot of the money isspent at the more senior level,
which is 15 grand courses atmanagement colleges, schools,
retreats, that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Well, we have an example of this.
So we worked with a very largeorganization and we did a lot of
frontline sales training and toget that work was quite a few
hoops that we had to jumpthrough to get that work, but
the actual cost per head forthat rollout was quite low.
(06:48):
Okay, In the same year thatsame organization sent a cohort
of senior managers out tosomewhere like Sierra Leone to
do a major project out there.
Okay, that would have cost 100grand plus easily with all the
expenses, accommodation and thedifferent people.
(07:10):
And if you remember, I think itwas a 12 to 18 month program
and I think half of the seniormanagers had left before it
finished.
So if you think about that asan investment, what are people
doing by thinking that's a greatidea?
If they think that's aretention strategy for keeping
somebody, they totally failed inthat instance.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Well, that's immediately interesting.
Yes, senior people are valuableand some of them are amazing
and do great stuff.
But if I'm coming to the last10 years of my work and you're
spending 100K on me, 50k, 15, 20, whatever, whatever it is are
you not better off trying towork at the other end to really
invest in people so that theythink, gosh, I've, this is my
(07:51):
third job I'm doing so well?
This company really want me togrow.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
This is where I'm gonna camp out but also you
could also argue that for all ofthose people, rather than book
this massive intervention, theycould have said we'll give you
all an extra 20 grand each tostay, and they would have gone
fine.
And actually by doing nothing,by just throwing money at them,
they might have achieved morethan what they actually did,
(08:15):
which was then have a disjointedprogram where people left and
went and some people rejoined ordidn't turn up or there was
less people involved.
And you then wonder where isthe value here for the
organization?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
hardly any at all, I would say and I also think that
the old adage of old dogs, newtricks, the reason why training
isn't really offered they callit other things, don't they?
Leadership development,executive program, retreat isn't
really offered, is people don'treally believe they're in the
zone of needing training at asenior level.
(08:50):
So companies are sitting aroundand perhaps not getting
traction.
Perhaps there's a lack ofmotivation, lack of leadership.
They go.
What do we do to get this groupbetter?
Some of them are even involvedin that decision on their own
about what do I do about me?
You know what do I do about meand my six on the board, and so
maybe it's quite attractive that.
(09:10):
Ok, I never really did itbefore, but I'm going to lock
into some senior leadershipprogram.
It's got a university angle.
There's going to be somedoctors lecturing.
I'm going to learn somethingthat I just didn't know doctors
lecturing.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I'm going to learn something that I just didn't
know, something that you lovealways and I've always loved, is
the facade of academia, thefacade of academia.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
So I can go to a city yeah, that has a famous
university and be on a programwith a loose connection you
don't even need to do that.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
There are lots of management programs which take
place in buildings that looklike they are universities.
They have that kind of slightlyfaded grandeur, yeah, of a
large mansion, and you turn upand you've got lovely
accommodation and you are calledalumni and you're in a faculty
(10:00):
of learning and so that wholefacade is there, even though you
do not come out with a piece ofpaper most of the time
sometimes you do, but not alwaysthat says you are officially
qualified to do anything.
You know you just turn up anddo this program of different
discussions and exercises andlooking interested, and I'm sure
(10:22):
some of these courses arefantastic.
I have no doubt about that.
But I do wonder sometimes, ifyou're a senior manager looking
at different options of howyou're going to develop, how
you're going to grow in the last, let's say, 20 years of your
career, then where is that value?
You know you could go and dothat course for six months.
Then what then?
(10:42):
What?
Do you do it again next yearand the year?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
after, or are you meant to be skilled enough to
apply your learning?
Speaker 1 (10:48):
yeah, and then what do you do?
Do you get to a point where youknow you're so senior is that
going to take you to the very,very pinnacle of your career.
But then what do you do?
So do you then have executivecoaching, or do you have therapy
because your mind's blown bythe status and power that you
currently have?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Well, I think the therapy one.
The reason why we put that inis actually, I think people get
to a certain stage in their lifeand actually, if your company
can invest in therapy, thatmight actually be what you need.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I couldn't agree more and I think that one of the
massive missings at the momentis an understanding that mental
health issues, not just in thiscountry, across the world are at
a peak and any assistance thatanybody can give is going to
help people.
And I think when you do get tothat stage in your career, then
(11:40):
those therapeutic discussionsabout you, what you want, where
you're going, where your head'sat People- talk a lot about
mindset.
You don't know what your mindsetis until you discussed it and
delved into it a bit and pokedaround and found out exactly
what it is you're thinking.
So you do need some time to dothat well, I?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I think that's probably the hidden benefit of
working at building the school,the orphanage, the project, the
water aid.
Whatever it is you're doing isyou're in a reflective mood with
other people at a certainposition and you start to have
your other conversations abouthere I am at life, my kids have
fled the nest, whatever it is,and what am I going to do next.
So that's probably the mainbenefit of some of these quite
(12:22):
expensive retreats.
At the other end of that,you've got our children's age,
who are 18, who are going offand doing the similar thing
post-university or post-school.
They're working in Vietnam,nepal.
You pay for these experiences.
But you could argue at thosetwo points of life pre-career
and as career is nearing an endyou could gain an extra bit of
(12:44):
charge from people who've whoare reflecting, they go back
into the workplace and thenmaybe they're helping their left
tenants to.
You know be better before they.
You know, you know, what do you, what do you call it?
Succession stuff, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
but then then we're talking about motivation.
Yeah, so that's a hell of athing to engage in just to
motivate somebody, yeah, andactually you might be just as
motivated by, you know, auk-based team building exercise
going to henry the eighth'sbanquet.
You just don't know what'sgoing to motivate people.
(13:17):
And to some people, going to athird world country would be an
absolute nightmare, and I thinkit doesn't suit all to to put
yourself outside your comfortzone.
Everyone says these days to toput yourself outside your
comfort zone.
Everyone says these days, youmust put yourself outside your
comfort zone.
Well, if you're not comfortablewith that, then it could be an
absolute nightmare for it couldruin your life, it could ruin
your career.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I mean, that's the basic shortcut of therapy is the
thing that you fear most.
Unless you embrace it, you'llcontinue to fear it.
But that's the most commontreatment of anxiety.
We could say but you're right,you're very senior, you don't
want to do these things, soyou're not going to do them.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
But then I think that comes back to our point what if
you do nothing?
So let's say you get to.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I know plenty of those, I know people who are
still working 70, 80, 65 who arekind of in control of the
destiny of their organizations.
They're not in the market fordevelopment.
So really a lot of theseorganizations don't have
development because the cultureis often set by that, that type.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I know plenty of people like that so if you don't
do anything, does thatnecessarily mean that you're
going to be less successful thanpeople at the same position who
are developing themselves insome way?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
it depends what you're measuring.
If you're measuring success,that's one measure.
If you're measuring greatcollaborative workforce, all
happiness is is teeming throughyour organization kindness
giving.
It depends what you'remeasuring If it's just the
success.
I bumped into a friend outsidea supermarket who works for a
house builder and he saidthey've brought in a brand new
(14:55):
operations manager who's knownas the most scary person in the
house building industry.
He jumps from company tocompany.
He gets all the projects doneindustry.
He jumps from company tocompany.
He gets all the projects done,but everybody hates him and he's
signed to do a year to makesure all these new projects are
built on time.
Success for him is getting thembuilt, but there's no
(15:17):
development, there's no culture.
That's just the buildings willbe up.
So that's hitting a deadline.
I think there's always going tobe senior people who can come
in and promise that, and we seeso many of them.
They only stay at a place fortwo, three years.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
They're not necessarily even in the market
for what we're talking about, somaybe it's more like the board
below the board, chap who hadbeen on the board of a company
that doesn't exist anymore, thatwas very big in its day, ici,
who you will remember very well,and he had worked his way up
(15:51):
from the post room to theboardroom over 40 odd years and
he said to me that he'd been toa management development
residential thing, having had noprevious development at all.
He just risen up through theranks with no training, and he
said, as they went through eachsubject, each exercise, as they
(16:14):
would pose the different issuesthat they were supposed to deal
with, he would just say well,okay, the common sense answer to
that is to do this.
And he was right every singletime.
And so when I heard that, Ithought does that mean that as
you get older, you lose yourconcept of what's common sense
(16:35):
and what isn't?
Is that what it is to remindyou that these are the kind of
straightforward functions thatone should do?
In which case, why do we needto have development in that
regard?
Why don't we just say to peoplewe need to start using some
common sense here, or is commonsense dull and uninnovative and
not very?
exciting, exactly, I think it'sthat and not actually not
(16:57):
growth-based Yep, but these arepeople who've reached a senior
position.
They wouldn't have reachedthose points without growth and
development and success anyway.
So you've reached a certainpoint and your common sense and
your you know, your knowledge ofopportunities and looking at
various things and balancing upyour decisions has come from all
that years of experience.
(17:17):
You're then challenged to beinnovative and exciting.
Is that exactly what you shouldbe doing, or should you just
use the common sense, becausethat's what's worked?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, it's very intriguing.
Or maybe your job is to allownew ideas in because you're
blocking creativity, becauseyou've become more risk averse.
You don't have a mortgage.
You're financially secure, isit?
That classic thing is that ifthis company doesn't do
something new, it will becomeextinct, and therefore you're in
(17:49):
the position of decision-making.
We need to do something withyou.
We don't.
We realize you don't wanttraining, but I think you need
to be open, and so we're goingto develop you in this other way
.
You're going to be appointed tohave an executive coach.
You'll have a chemistry session.
If you don't like that coach,we've got two others, others.
But we want you to bechallenged, to innovate in some
way should we do?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
three is the magic number yeah, hit it.
This has been my easiest, myeasiest questions I've had so
far so my question to you what'sthe best senior management
(18:30):
development that you have?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
had.
If I'm even senior, I suppose Iam potentially and it's the
training that we've givenourselves in that case.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So probably my coaching with Simon Crowe.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Really you put that above learning to become a coach
in the first place at AOEC.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, because I suppose I first of all learned
about coaching through Simon heintroduced the whole concept to
me.
So I think I've been coached byhim twice and I still have
things used from that.
So yeah, I would say that's mybest.
That's not my most fun questionto you, I'll save that one.
But same question to you iswhat have you had and I'd
(19:09):
forgotten about the otherexternal things that we do but
what's yours?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
It's really hard for me because I can think of some
ones that I'll come onto thatwere an absolute nightmare.
But I think the best thing thatI've done is any one-to-one
coaching I've had.
I had some a couple of yearsago with a lady who we met on
our coaching course and she wasso good at understanding me and
(19:36):
I think if we then strip backwhat we're talking about here,
we want to be understood.
Leadership is lonely and Ithink sometimes you need
understanding to help you feelgood about what it is you're
doing.
So my next question to you iswhat is the worst senior
(19:57):
management development you'veeither seen or experienced?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
well, you could call it.
We paid you and I to go on thisthing together, run by a
national, we'll say organisation, where we had an evening with
by somebody who claimed to be apresentation expert.
Have you forgotten this?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I've completely forgotten it.
You're going to have to bringthis to life for me Well it was
a national newspaper running thesession.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Does that help a bit more?
Oh, it was online Online.
Oh yes, that was terrible,They'd managed to sell 70 or 80
of us into this person's thing.
Oh, that was awful.
And they were filling it withimages and what you could say,
what you couldn't say.
He was jumping around and yethis clients that he had his
client list of is why.
Why we'd signed up is that he'dhelped these major
(20:47):
organizations all over the worldimprove the way they present
themselves.
That was awful.
It was worse.
It couldn't be in the room.
It was so uninspiring, so fast,just awful.
And the person wasn't a trainer, of course that was terrible.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
That was terrible, okay, okay.
Well, I mean, that's thankfullyit wasn't, you weren't kept
there, you weren't locked into abuilding that you couldn't
leave while you were doing that.
You could just leave it yeahokay, which we did.
My worst one was a manager'sresidential.
I did at a very well-knownmanager's residential college I
(21:27):
use the word college withapostrophes and we all turned up
on the first day and we did aversion of not Myers-Briggs but
something else one of those kindof personality assessments.
And I was with a gentleman inthat session who was a
(21:48):
horrendous boss, really quite adifficult person to work for,
and as we started answering thequestions to work out your
personality type, and as westarted answering the questions
(22:09):
to work out your personalitytype, it became clear that he
wanted to have a team full ofpeople who were a certain strong
, not very pleasant personalitytype.
And you felt, if I don't edgeinto that area, I'm going to be
ridiculed here by thisindividual.
And you then started changingthe answers you would normally
have given because of that.
Okay, now that, I think, isclassic stuff, where you go for
manager development, you turn upsomewhere and then you realize
(22:30):
you can't be yourself becauseyou're in a hierarchical thing
and there's a kind of pressurebeing put on you.
I mean that's appalling, isn'tit?
I never forgot that.
I just thought that is such awaste of everyone being put on
you.
I mean, that's appalling, isn'tit?
I never forgot that.
I just thought that is such awaste of everyone's time and
what it must have cost.
We had days in this place wellfortune.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It's a bit like when people say you know, we really
want to see your leadership,your leadership and then you say
what you mean we want you toget people to do what we're
telling you to tell them to do,isn't it?
You know, we need to see moreleadership from you.
What are you saying?
Well, we want this stuff tohappen.
Go and make it happen.
Okay, is that leadership?
Thanks?
Speaker 1 (23:04):
okay.
Well, my last question to youis what do you do now to develop
yourself?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
well, funny.
I bought a little thing thismorning which really piqued my
interest, a very specialistbusiness to business concept bit
of training about value andmisinformation, which I think is
interesting because that'sflying around as a topic at the
moment, that you know whatshould we believe, who's being
presented the information, who'sasking it.
(23:32):
And this is about how, as abusiness, you can position
yourself to help customersunderstand what they don't know
and through doing that better,they begin to want to have your
offering.
But that, that sort of lowerdown the agenda which I found as
an interesting concept.
So someone's put together, ofcourse.
So I occasionally get inspiredby a little course.
(23:52):
I buy the odd book and getinspired by books.
I'll probably return to havingsome coaching at some point.
It's a bit of a mix, I suppose.
So my question to you is thefive things you gave us at the
beginning, what do you want next?
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Oh, that's really good.
I would say, I would like someexecutive coaching.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Right fine.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I've got a series of goals that I'm working towards
at the moment and I do havecoaching assistants through a
course that I'm doing that helpsme do that, but I think I need
more of it.
I think I need a bit moredirective coaching, because
sometimes coaching is a littlebit kind of what do you think
you could do then?
And actually I would quite likepeople that I know and trust to
(24:38):
say a little bit kind of whatdo you think you could do then?
And actually I would quite likepeople that I know and trust to
say we'll do this and do thatand be a bit more direct.
Is that not more mentoring?
No, because I I think mentoringthere's a certain kind of this
person's already achieved allthis and there's this kind of
doyen of, of superbeness.
That's not the case.
It's about that connection withsomeone that you trust and you
value their advice and you valuetheir opinion.
(25:00):
I think that's that's somethingthat I would definitely like
you love the word doyen.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
That's fun.
I haven't heard that for awhile.
The other word you love isgrandee grandee you love.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I used, I used grandeur earlier.
No, no, but when you talk,about a grandee of the industry.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Who's?
Put on a chair to talk.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Well, I do wonder how many grandees of industries
have ever had any development.
Well, that's the point.
They sit there and they I mean.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
You and I sat there at one conference where two
grandees agreed with each other.
It was the least inspiringconversation we've ever
witnessed.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I couldn't agree more .
I also think that these days,there is is massive opportunity
for self development online, sothere are loads of courses that
you can do.
I did one the other day and Ilearned a lot, and I think we
have to perhaps change ourmindsets now where we think well
, I've reached a certain pointnow I don't need to learn
anything new.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Actually, if it interests me, yeah, if it
interests me, then I can go offand and yeah, but that's one of
your things.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
That's one of the things that you say a lot.
You say if it interests me.
I remember years ago you weremoaning about the fact you could
never find your way anywhere,and I'd say why don't you look
at the map and work out where itis you're going?
And you said it doesn'tinterest me.
And I thought, well, okay, soif it doesn't interest you, then
you have absolutely no reasonto look at it.
Okay, but I look, be likereading instructions to build
(26:17):
something.
You know you wouldn't do thateither because it doesn't
interest you, even though itwould actually make your life
easier.
And so I think that's the thing.
I did one recently.
I did an email marketing coursewhich I have no interest in at
all, but I actually learned fiveor six really good bits of
information from that.
That was worthwhile.
So maybe the challenge to youDo things you're not interested
(26:39):
in.
Yeah, look at something you'renot interested in and see
whether you do develop aninterest in it.
You can't tell me you werealways interested in marketing
years ago.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Surely not.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Something must have happened for you to go.
Oh, I quite like marketing.
I don't know what it was, butthere must have been something.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
It was Rosie Phipps who was one of my customers at
Yellow Pages.
She ran a college in Oxford andI was renewing her Yellow Pages
advert and she just said yousound like you'd love marketing.
You're asking me questions thatnormal salespeople wouldn't ask
.
And I said really.
She said hold it there.
And she went off and came backwith a sheet of archetypes and
(27:14):
she handed me the sheet and Ijust went oh, this is good.
And yeah, I was out of therewithin the year.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Well, there we are.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Rosie Phipps.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
She was called Okay, well, so listeners, thank you
for listening to Bob andJeremy's Conf Lab.
If you are a senior manager,we'd love you to think about
this question what are yourdevelopment options?
Are you going to have sometherapy?
Are you going to have coachingtherapy Are you going to have
coaching and it's important tomake the distinction between
those two things Are you goingto pay to go and live somewhere
(27:45):
for a few weeks and immerseyourself in some current
management thinking?
Are you going to swan off to acountry and build a school,
somewhere very worthwhile, andlive your life slightly
differently?
Or are you going to do nothing?
Are you going to simply do yourjob and live on your wits and
(28:05):
see how successful you can be?
You know, and now there areother options, of course.
Of course there are otheroptions and you know part of
that might be to look at yourorganization as a whole and say,
right, what are the developmentneeds of everybody?
And I, as a senior person,should become involved in all of
them so that I'm actuallyhelping those things to embed
(28:26):
and land and I will grow as aresult, and that's another
another thing that you can do.
But please give that somethought and we'd love to hear
your views on what are the bestsenior management development
options.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you.
Bob and Jeremy's Conflap the Reality Podcast.
So, jeremy, you've been inbusiness now for 25-odd years
with your own business and then,prior to that, you had your own
career.
That's right.
We think you've reached a pointnow where you've got a number
(00:31):
of options and I just want toput them to you.
Now.
You can go and have sometherapy, and I think that's not
a bad idea for you.
Go in and have some deeptherapy.
We could spend a lot of moneyto send you on a management
development program with one ofthe major institutions.
I think you might enjoy that.
We could do some executivecoaching, one-to-one with you to
(00:56):
help you develop yourself basedon your knowledge and
experience.
We could send you on a totallymeaningless team building
exercise to go and help somebodyabroad.
That's something that you mightenjoy.
Or you can just carry on as youare and have no development
whatsoever.
So what do you think would bethe kind of option for you there
?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, it's very interesting.
Yeah, Am I being given a budgetfor this?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Well, yes, I mean, the budget is anything you want
to spend because you're senior.
So when it comes to developmentbudgets, the coffers are open,
whereas if it's a frontlineperson who's earning 20,000 a
year, we hardly spend anythingon them, that's true.
But for you we can spend waymore.
So that is the theme of ourpodcast today.
Ladies and gentlemen, seniormanagement development options
(01:47):
what do you?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
do.
What do you do next?
You're listening to Bob andJeremy's Conf Lab, brought to
you by Reality Training sellingcertainty.
We're a leading training andcoaching company based in the UK
.
For information on how we couldhelp you improve your business,
(02:08):
check out our website atrealitytrainingcom.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
If you're a senior manager, your time is valuable
and therefore anything that youdo which is there to develop you
values that time to the fullestextent.
So if you have to go somewhere,then it's all paid for
Absolutely.
If you have to have coaching ortherapy, you have it in your
(02:40):
working hours, which, on yourhigh salary, is definitely a few
hundred pounds an hour plus thefee.
If you're going to go and domeaningless team building in
affording invisible streams, Iwas thinking about the team
building, and if we look at ourepisode on team building, we go
into some detail on some of theslightly more pointless things
(03:03):
that one can do from teambuilding.
Senior team building can bemeaningless, but it can also be.
Let's go and spend some time ina third world country building
something.
Now, I have no problem with thatobjective.
I do have a problem with thedevelopment things that come
from it.
I really think that that isquestionable Because of course
(03:24):
you can go over and have anamazing experience and bond with
some people and give somethingback, and I think all of that is
admirable.
I really do.
I don't like the idea that itcomes under the heading of a
development program.
I think that's a hook to hangthe title on, but I actually
think it doesn't mean much.
I think it's the kind of thingthat one should do anyway.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
If you're a large corporation worth hundreds of
millions of pounds, you shouldbe going abroad and helping
other people.
Of course you should.
It should be a natural thingyou should do.
You shouldn't do it as a kindof a smoke screen to develop
your executives because, a whatthey're going to get from it is
questionable and, b that's noteveryone's cup of tea.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So in your opening you talk about various options
or do nothing.
The question before that is whyare we talking about this?
Why do senior executives need?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
developing.
It's a good question and that'swhy I've put nothing in,
because I think for some peoplenothing is actually a pretty
good option.
But I think, if you think aboutmost of the work that we do,
it's frontline people, it's teamleaders, it's sales managers,
it's sales directors, it'soperational people in the main.
(04:38):
And then occasionally we doexecutive coaching with very
senior people and that's one-toto one and quite intensive.
Part of the issue with thosevery senior people is what.
What can they do?
Yeah, you know, let's imagineyou've got 40, 45 plus, you're
in a director position, you'reearning good money, and the
(05:00):
subject matter for lots of thosecoaching sessions are things
like work-life balance, personalimpact, personal growth,
presentation skills leadership,Developing the next wave all
that stuff.
Yeah, so those are the kind ofthemes that we're dealing with,
but that's just one thing.
(05:20):
Executive coaching is, by itsvery nature nature, a one-to-one
personal intervention.
But then you look at what elsethere is I think, why this topic
interests me.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
You know what do you do with senior people who kind
of don't want or need training?
The very fact is, all thesenior people hold the budget
responsibility yeah so thelargest investment I was looking
up interesting writer victVictor Lipman.
He's written a couple of booksand he writes about this topic.
This is his thing.
Where's the training pie?
(05:52):
And is all the budgetaryresponsibility and where the
money can be spent is held bythose people.
So they spend as you said atthe beginning.
They spend less on the peopleat the front line.
His assertion, and many others,is that all the investment
should go at first levelmanagers.
So that they start their careerwith the best possible training.
(06:14):
What they learn then they canuse for years, and so on, and so
on, and so on.
However, a lot of the money isspent at the more senior level,
which is 15 grand courses atmanagement colleges, schools,
retreats, that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Well, we have an example of this.
So we worked with a very largeorganization and we did a lot of
frontline sales training and toget that work was quite a few
hoops that we had to jumpthrough to get that work, but
the actual cost per head forthat rollout was quite low.
(06:48):
Okay, In the same year thatsame organization sent a cohort
of senior managers out tosomewhere like Sierra Leone to
do a major project out there.
Okay, that would have cost 100grand plus easily with all the
expenses, accommodation and thedifferent people.
(07:10):
And if you remember, I think itwas a 12 to 18 month program
and I think half of the seniormanagers had left before it
finished.
So if you think about that asan investment, what are people
doing by thinking that's a greatidea?
If they think that's aretention strategy for keeping
somebody, they totally failed inthat instance.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Well, that's immediately interesting.
Yes, senior people are valuableand some of them are amazing
and do great stuff.
But if I'm coming to the last10 years of my work and you're
spending 100K on me, 50k, 15, 20, whatever, whatever it is are
you not better off trying towork at the other end to really
invest in people so that theythink, gosh, I've, this is my
(07:51):
third job I'm doing so well?
This company really want me togrow.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
This is where I'm gonna camp out but also you
could also argue that for all ofthose people, rather than book
this massive intervention, theycould have said we'll give you
all an extra 20 grand each tostay, and they would have gone
fine.
And actually by doing nothing,by just throwing money at them,
they might have achieved morethan what they actually did,
(08:15):
which was then have a disjointedprogram where people left and
went and some people rejoined ordidn't turn up or there was
less people involved.
And you then wonder where isthe value here for the
organization?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
hardly any at all, I would say and I also think that
the old adage of old dogs, newtricks, the reason why training
isn't really offered they callit other things, don't they?
Leadership development,executive program, retreat isn't
really offered, is people don'treally believe they're in the
zone of needing training at asenior level.
(08:50):
So companies are sitting aroundand perhaps not getting
traction.
Perhaps there's a lack ofmotivation, lack of leadership.
They go.
What do we do to get this groupbetter?
Some of them are even involvedin that decision on their own
about what do I do about me?
You know what do I do about meand my six on the board, and so
maybe it's quite attractive that.
(09:10):
Ok, I never really did itbefore, but I'm going to lock
into some senior leadershipprogram.
It's got a university angle.
There's going to be somedoctors lecturing.
I'm going to learn somethingthat I just didn't know doctors
lecturing.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I'm going to learn something that I just didn't
know, something that you lovealways and I've always loved, is
the facade of academia, thefacade of academia.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
So I can go to a city yeah, that has a famous
university and be on a programwith a loose connection you
don't even need to do that.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
There are lots of management programs which take
place in buildings that looklike they are universities.
They have that kind of slightlyfaded grandeur, yeah, of a
large mansion, and you turn upand you've got lovely
accommodation and you are calledalumni and you're in a faculty
(10:00):
of learning and so that wholefacade is there, even though you
do not come out with a piece ofpaper most of the time
sometimes you do, but not alwaysthat says you are officially
qualified to do anything.
You know you just turn up anddo this program of different
discussions and exercises andlooking interested, and I'm sure
(10:22):
some of these courses arefantastic.
I have no doubt about that.
But I do wonder sometimes, ifyou're a senior manager looking
at different options of howyou're going to develop, how
you're going to grow in the last, let's say, 20 years of your
career, then where is that value?
You know you could go and dothat course for six months.
Then what then?
(10:42):
What?
Do you do it again next yearand the year?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
after, or are you meant to be skilled enough to
apply your learning?
Speaker 1 (10:48):
yeah, and then what do you do?
Do you get to a point where youknow you're so senior is that
going to take you to the very,very pinnacle of your career.
But then what do you do?
So do you then have executivecoaching, or do you have therapy
because your mind's blown bythe status and power that you
currently have?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Well, I think the therapy one.
The reason why we put that inis actually, I think people get
to a certain stage in their lifeand actually, if your company
can invest in therapy, thatmight actually be what you need.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I couldn't agree more and I think that one of the
massive missings at the momentis an understanding that mental
health issues, not just in thiscountry, across the world are at
a peak and any assistance thatanybody can give is going to
help people.
And I think when you do get tothat stage in your career, then
(11:40):
those therapeutic discussionsabout you, what you want, where
you're going, where your head'sat People- talk a lot about
mindset.
You don't know what your mindsetis until you discussed it and
delved into it a bit and pokedaround and found out exactly
what it is you're thinking.
So you do need some time to dothat well, I?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I think that's probably the hidden benefit of
working at building the school,the orphanage, the project, the
water aid.
Whatever it is you're doing isyou're in a reflective mood with
other people at a certainposition and you start to have
your other conversations abouthere I am at life, my kids have
fled the nest, whatever it is,and what am I going to do next.
So that's probably the mainbenefit of some of these quite
(12:22):
expensive retreats.
At the other end of that,you've got our children's age,
who are 18, who are going offand doing the similar thing
post-university or post-school.
They're working in Vietnam,nepal.
You pay for these experiences.
But you could argue at thosetwo points of life pre-career
and as career is nearing an endyou could gain an extra bit of
(12:44):
charge from people who've whoare reflecting, they go back
into the workplace and thenmaybe they're helping their left
tenants to.
You know be better before they.
You know, you know, what do you, what do you call it?
Succession stuff, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
but then then we're talking about motivation.
Yeah, so that's a hell of athing to engage in just to
motivate somebody, yeah, andactually you might be just as
motivated by, you know, auk-based team building exercise
going to henry the eighth'sbanquet.
You just don't know what'sgoing to motivate people.
(13:17):
And to some people, going to athird world country would be an
absolute nightmare, and I thinkit doesn't suit all to to put
yourself outside your comfortzone.
Everyone says these days to toput yourself outside your
comfort zone.
Everyone says these days, youmust put yourself outside your
comfort zone.
Well, if you're not comfortablewith that, then it could be an
absolute nightmare for it couldruin your life, it could ruin
your career.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I mean, that's the basic shortcut of therapy is the
thing that you fear most.
Unless you embrace it, you'llcontinue to fear it.
But that's the most commontreatment of anxiety.
We could say but you're right,you're very senior, you don't
want to do these things, soyou're not going to do them.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
But then I think that comes back to our point what if
you do nothing?
So let's say you get to.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I know plenty of those, I know people who are
still working 70, 80, 65 who arekind of in control of the
destiny of their organizations.
They're not in the market fordevelopment.
So really a lot of theseorganizations don't have
development because the cultureis often set by that, that type.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I know plenty of people like that so if you don't
do anything, does thatnecessarily mean that you're
going to be less successful thanpeople at the same position who
are developing themselves insome way?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
it depends what you're measuring.
If you're measuring success,that's one measure.
If you're measuring greatcollaborative workforce, all
happiness is is teeming throughyour organization kindness
giving.
It depends what you'remeasuring If it's just the
success.
I bumped into a friend outsidea supermarket who works for a
house builder and he saidthey've brought in a brand new
(14:55):
operations manager who's knownas the most scary person in the
house building industry.
He jumps from company tocompany.
He gets all the projects doneindustry.
He jumps from company tocompany.
He gets all the projects done,but everybody hates him and he's
signed to do a year to makesure all these new projects are
built on time.
Success for him is getting thembuilt, but there's no
(15:17):
development, there's no culture.
That's just the buildings willbe up.
So that's hitting a deadline.
I think there's always going tobe senior people who can come
in and promise that, and we seeso many of them.
They only stay at a place fortwo, three years.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
They're not necessarily even in the market
for what we're talking about, somaybe it's more like the board
below the board, chap who hadbeen on the board of a company
that doesn't exist anymore, thatwas very big in its day, ici,
who you will remember very well,and he had worked his way up
(15:51):
from the post room to theboardroom over 40 odd years and
he said to me that he'd been toa management development
residential thing, having had noprevious development at all.
He just risen up through theranks with no training, and he
said, as they went through eachsubject, each exercise, as they
(16:14):
would pose the different issuesthat they were supposed to deal
with, he would just say well,okay, the common sense answer to
that is to do this.
And he was right every singletime.
And so when I heard that, Ithought does that mean that as
you get older, you lose yourconcept of what's common sense
(16:35):
and what isn't?
Is that what it is to remindyou that these are the kind of
straightforward functions thatone should do?
In which case, why do we needto have development in that
regard?
Why don't we just say to peoplewe need to start using some
common sense here, or is commonsense dull and uninnovative and
not very?
exciting, exactly, I think it'sthat and not actually not
(16:57):
growth-based Yep, but these arepeople who've reached a senior
position.
They wouldn't have reachedthose points without growth and
development and success anyway.
So you've reached a certainpoint and your common sense and
your you know, your knowledge ofopportunities and looking at
various things and balancing upyour decisions has come from all
that years of experience.
(17:17):
You're then challenged to beinnovative and exciting.
Is that exactly what you shouldbe doing, or should you just
use the common sense, becausethat's what's worked?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, it's very intriguing.
Or maybe your job is to allownew ideas in because you're
blocking creativity, becauseyou've become more risk averse.
You don't have a mortgage.
You're financially secure, isit?
That classic thing is that ifthis company doesn't do
something new, it will becomeextinct, and therefore you're in
(17:49):
the position of decision-making.
We need to do something withyou.
We don't.
We realize you don't wanttraining, but I think you need
to be open, and so we're goingto develop you in this other way
.
You're going to be appointed tohave an executive coach.
You'll have a chemistry session.
If you don't like that coach,we've got two others, others.
But we want you to bechallenged, to innovate in some
way should we do?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
three is the magic number yeah, hit it.
This has been my easiest, myeasiest questions I've had so
far so my question to you what'sthe best senior management
(18:30):
development that you have?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
had.
If I'm even senior, I suppose Iam potentially and it's the
training that we've givenourselves in that case.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So probably my coaching with Simon Crowe.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Really you put that above learning to become a coach
in the first place at AOEC.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, because I suppose I first of all learned
about coaching through Simon heintroduced the whole concept to
me.
So I think I've been coached byhim twice and I still have
things used from that.
So yeah, I would say that's mybest.
That's not my most fun questionto you, I'll save that one.
But same question to you iswhat have you had and I'd
(19:09):
forgotten about the otherexternal things that we do but
what's yours?
Speaker 1 (19:14):
It's really hard for me because I can think of some
ones that I'll come onto thatwere an absolute nightmare.
But I think the best thing thatI've done is any one-to-one
coaching I've had.
I had some a couple of yearsago with a lady who we met on
our coaching course and she wasso good at understanding me and
(19:36):
I think if we then strip backwhat we're talking about here,
we want to be understood.
Leadership is lonely and Ithink sometimes you need
understanding to help you feelgood about what it is you're
doing.
So my next question to you iswhat is the worst senior
(19:57):
management development you'veeither seen or experienced?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
well, you could call it.
We paid you and I to go on thisthing together, run by a
national, we'll say organisation, where we had an evening with
by somebody who claimed to be apresentation expert.
Have you forgotten this?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I've completely forgotten it.
You're going to have to bringthis to life for me Well it was
a national newspaper running thesession.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Does that help a bit more?
Oh, it was online Online.
Oh yes, that was terrible,They'd managed to sell 70 or 80
of us into this person's thing.
Oh, that was awful.
And they were filling it withimages and what you could say,
what you couldn't say.
He was jumping around and yethis clients that he had his
client list of is why.
Why we'd signed up is that he'dhelped these major
(20:47):
organizations all over the worldimprove the way they present
themselves.
That was awful.
It was worse.
It couldn't be in the room.
It was so uninspiring, so fast,just awful.
And the person wasn't a trainer, of course that was terrible.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
That was terrible, okay, okay.
Well, I mean, that's thankfullyit wasn't, you weren't kept
there, you weren't locked into abuilding that you couldn't
leave while you were doing that.
You could just leave it yeahokay, which we did.
My worst one was a manager'sresidential.
I did at a very well-knownmanager's residential college I
(21:27):
use the word college withapostrophes and we all turned up
on the first day and we did aversion of not Myers-Briggs but
something else one of those kindof personality assessments.
And I was with a gentleman inthat session who was a
(21:48):
horrendous boss, really quite adifficult person to work for,
and as we started answering thequestions to work out your
personality type, and as westarted answering the questions
(22:09):
to work out your personalitytype, it became clear that he
wanted to have a team full ofpeople who were a certain strong
, not very pleasant personalitytype.
And you felt, if I don't edgeinto that area, I'm going to be
ridiculed here by thisindividual.
And you then started changingthe answers you would normally
have given because of that.
Okay, now that, I think, isclassic stuff, where you go for
manager development, you turn upsomewhere and then you realize
(22:30):
you can't be yourself becauseyou're in a hierarchical thing
and there's a kind of pressurebeing put on you.
I mean that's appalling, isn'tit?
I never forgot that.
I just thought that is such awaste of everyone being put on
you.
I mean, that's appalling, isn'tit?
I never forgot that.
I just thought that is such awaste of everyone's time and
what it must have cost.
We had days in this place wellfortune.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It's a bit like when people say you know, we really
want to see your leadership,your leadership and then you say
what you mean we want you toget people to do what we're
telling you to tell them to do,isn't it?
You know, we need to see moreleadership from you.
What are you saying?
Well, we want this stuff tohappen.
Go and make it happen.
Okay, is that leadership?
Thanks?
Speaker 1 (23:04):
okay.
Well, my last question to youis what do you do now to develop
yourself?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
well, funny.
I bought a little thing thismorning which really piqued my
interest, a very specialistbusiness to business concept bit
of training about value andmisinformation, which I think is
interesting because that'sflying around as a topic at the
moment, that you know whatshould we believe, who's being
presented the information, who'sasking it.
(23:32):
And this is about how, as abusiness, you can position
yourself to help customersunderstand what they don't know
and through doing that better,they begin to want to have your
offering.
But that, that sort of lowerdown the agenda which I found as
an interesting concept.
So someone's put together, ofcourse.
So I occasionally get inspiredby a little course.
(23:52):
I buy the odd book and getinspired by books.
I'll probably return to havingsome coaching at some point.
It's a bit of a mix, I suppose.
So my question to you is thefive things you gave us at the
beginning, what do you want next?
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Oh, that's really good.
I would say, I would like someexecutive coaching.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Right fine.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I've got a series of goals that I'm working towards
at the moment and I do havecoaching assistants through a
course that I'm doing that helpsme do that, but I think I need
more of it.
I think I need a bit moredirective coaching, because
sometimes coaching is a littlebit kind of what do you think
you could do then?
And actually I would quite likepeople that I know and trust to
(24:38):
say a little bit kind of whatdo you think you could do then?
And actually I would quite likepeople that I know and trust to
say we'll do this and do thatand be a bit more direct.
Is that not more mentoring?
No, because I I think mentoringthere's a certain kind of this
person's already achieved allthis and there's this kind of
doyen of, of superbeness.
That's not the case.
It's about that connection withsomeone that you trust and you
value their advice and you valuetheir opinion.
(25:00):
I think that's that's somethingthat I would definitely like
you love the word doyen.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
That's fun.
I haven't heard that for awhile.
The other word you love isgrandee grandee you love.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I used, I used grandeur earlier.
No, no, but when you talk,about a grandee of the industry.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Who's?
Put on a chair to talk.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Well, I do wonder how many grandees of industries
have ever had any development.
Well, that's the point.
They sit there and they I mean.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
You and I sat there at one conference where two
grandees agreed with each other.
It was the least inspiringconversation we've ever
witnessed.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I couldn't agree more .
I also think that these days,there is is massive opportunity
for self development online, sothere are loads of courses that
you can do.
I did one the other day and Ilearned a lot, and I think we
have to perhaps change ourmindsets now where we think well
, I've reached a certain pointnow I don't need to learn
anything new.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Actually, if it interests me, yeah, if it
interests me, then I can go offand and yeah, but that's one of
your things.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
That's one of the things that you say a lot.
You say if it interests me.
I remember years ago you weremoaning about the fact you could
never find your way anywhere,and I'd say why don't you look
at the map and work out where itis you're going?
And you said it doesn'tinterest me.
And I thought, well, okay, soif it doesn't interest you, then
you have absolutely no reasonto look at it.
Okay, but I look, be likereading instructions to build
(26:17):
something.
You know you wouldn't do thateither because it doesn't
interest you, even though itwould actually make your life
easier.
And so I think that's the thing.
I did one recently.
I did an email marketing coursewhich I have no interest in at
all, but I actually learned fiveor six really good bits of
information from that.
That was worthwhile.
So maybe the challenge to youDo things you're not interested
(26:39):
in.
Yeah, look at something you'renot interested in and see
whether you do develop aninterest in it.
You can't tell me you werealways interested in marketing
years ago.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Surely not.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Something must have happened for you to go.
Oh, I quite like marketing.
I don't know what it was, butthere must have been something.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
It was Rosie Phipps who was one of my customers at
Yellow Pages.
She ran a college in Oxford andI was renewing her Yellow Pages
advert and she just said yousound like you'd love marketing.
You're asking me questions thatnormal salespeople wouldn't ask
.
And I said really.
She said hold it there.
And she went off and came backwith a sheet of archetypes and
(27:14):
she handed me the sheet and Ijust went oh, this is good.
And yeah, I was out of therewithin the year.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Well, there we are.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Rosie Phipps.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
She was called Okay, well, so listeners, thank you
for listening to Bob andJeremy's Conf Lab.
If you are a senior manager,we'd love you to think about
this question what are yourdevelopment options?
Are you going to have sometherapy?
Are you going to have coachingtherapy Are you going to have
coaching and it's important tomake the distinction between
those two things Are you goingto pay to go and live somewhere
(27:45):
for a few weeks and immerseyourself in some current
management thinking?
Are you going to swan off to acountry and build a school,
somewhere very worthwhile, andlive your life slightly
differently?
Or are you going to do nothing?
Are you going to simply do yourjob and live on your wits and
(28:05):
see how successful you can be?
You know, and now there areother options, of course.
Of course there are otheroptions and you know part of
that might be to look at yourorganization as a whole and say,
right, what are the developmentneeds of everybody?
And I, as a senior person,should become involved in all of
them so that I'm actuallyhelping those things to embed
(28:26):
and land and I will grow as aresult, and that's another
another thing that you can do.
But please give that somethought and we'd love to hear
your views on what are the bestsenior management development
options.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you.
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