November 10, 2025 • 26 mins
If you lead a team, or have just started, this is part 1 of two episodes all about making that role easier and more effective.
We talk about the stuff that’s hard:
- What to do when someone says the rules don’t apply to them
- How to respond without backing down or starting a row
- Dealing with likeable people who still aren’t performing
- Helping quiet team members feel confident to speak
- Getting two people to work together when they clearly don’t want to
You’ll also hear how to open a meeting with purpose, give useful feedback, and create the kind of team environment where expectations are clear and people know what good looks like.
This episode is all about managing people – the day-to-day conversations, nudges, and challenges that come with the job.
Part 2 is coming soon, where we’ll look at managing time, workload, and getting out of firefighting mode.
Listen in and take one idea into your week!
For more info, free resources, useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
Reality Training - Selling Certainty
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Morrell (00:29):
So um look, Jeremy, I really appreciate um you
taking us through this in thismeeting, but I just want to make
it clear that um I this doesn'treally apply to me, does it?
What you're asking.
I know you're the team leader,but this doesn't really apply to
me, does it?
Jeremy Blake (00:46):
I think I think it does.
I think I think uh regardlessof experience, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I do.
Bob Morrell (00:51):
I know, but you know, I've been doing this a
long time and I've never beenasked to do these sorts of
things before.
So I don't think this appliesto me.
And I think if you check up theline, it won't be something
that I have to to focus on,okay?
Yeah.
Um okay.
Jeremy Blake (01:08):
Uh um I I um I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna come
back to you, okay?
Bob Morrell (01:13):
Fine, you can do that, but uh yeah, it's it I
don't need to be in this meetinganymore, so I'm gonna click
off.
Okay, cheers.
Bye.
Jeremy Blake (01:21):
Ooh.
We're gonna deal with thingslike this today when you're
leading people.
So, Bobby, can you intro?
We've got some new episodeswe've been researching, and
we're gonna launch today, aren'twe?
So, what are they about?
What are we doing?
Bob Morrell (01:34):
We are gonna do two episodes focusing on team
leaders and team leadership.
We need to be clear about whatteam leadership actually is, and
in fact, what is leadershipoverall, especially when it
comes to running things liketeams, and most organizations
thrive on having efficientteams.
(01:56):
And also, we've broken downthis subject into three broad
areas, but there's a kind of anoverall arching thing here
because uh we're currentlyworking on two massive projects
at the moment, and we're doing alot of work with team leaders,
and a lot of the success of thework that we do hinges on those
(02:17):
team leaders being able to leadeffectively.
And what we just heard therewas an example of a not very
effective team leader whodoesn't know how to deal with an
individual in their team who isgiving them refusals and
pushback.
And this is something that wecome across a lot, and we want
(02:39):
to empower team leaders to beable to cope in all sorts of
situations so that they can leadtheir people effectively.
Jeremy Blake (02:48):
If you're listening to this and you are a
team leader, it could be thatyou have the classic ratio.
You have about eight, 10, 12.
And if you're someone whomanages team leaders, however
many you have, you may realizethat kind of dynamic where
you're overseeing potentially aregion, it could be a geographic
region, of course, it could bea non-geographic region, and
(03:08):
you've got these team leaderswho are much closer to the
people talking to customers, andthat's the point.
Is the reason why Bob said ithinges on them.
They're the closest person tosomeone doing the work and
feeling customer reactions,whether those are business
people or consumers.
Bob Morrell (03:26):
Now, in my experience, um, a lot of the
team leaders that we work with,I think they break down into two
camps, and I want to make Iwant to be very clear about what
those two camps are.
There are leaders who see theirjob really as administrators,
(03:47):
and what they want to do, whatthey aim to do, is to get
everyone feeling as comfortableas possible and for everything
to tick over in a relativelyokay way.
So that's one type of leader,and then the other type are what
you might term far more dynamicleaders who are far more
(04:08):
involved, far more proactivewith their teams, looking to
improve what their teams do allthe time.
So if you're in that secondcamp, we're gonna give you lots
of stuff today that's gonna helpyou.
If you're in that first camp,our challenge to you is we're
not sure that you areeffectively leading if you just
want everyone to be happy andcomfortable and just ticking
(04:31):
over.
That's not leading.
That is simply caretakingperformance, and that's not what
leadership is.
Leadership is absolutelyfocusing on your people, raising
standards, unlocking potential,and your job as a leader is to
create a bridge between wherepeople are and where you need
them to be.
(04:52):
That's what you're there to do.
And a lot of what we're gonnathink about on these two
episodes is focused on thoseareas.
We want to make sure that you,as students of leadership, are
able to absolutely apply this toyour people right from now.
And I think it's gonna make ahuge difference to your outcomes
and your success.
Jeremy Blake (05:13):
I think the other thing I would just say is
probably more so in the lastfive years than in maybe any
other period in a long time,lots of people have been
promoted into leadership withoutnecessarily setting out with
that ideology that they would goup that career path.
Quite often they findthemselves in a position where
company scales change andthey're asked to step up.
(05:36):
And that's why I'm going to, inthis episode, become that new
leader.
So, what we're gonna try is thedynamic where Bob is, in a
sense, the more senior leader,and he's trying to help me
understand this world I'mentering.
So I'm gonna be green.
Bob Morrell (05:52):
Okay, now let's just uh deal with the first
point.
A lot of organizations, and youmay well be in one, the reason
they don't have a consistentleadership strategy is really
because of two things.
It's either one laziness, andthat's a tough thing to hear,
but some people just can't bebothered to put together a
decent leadership strategy.
(06:13):
And the second is an addictionto firefighting because all the
time you're dealing with crises,you feel as though you're being
productive.
And actually, if you organizedthe work and what you did more
effectively, which is whatleadership is, you would be more
effective.
(06:33):
Um, it does take work toorganize it, and everyone
thinks, oh, I can't be bothered,it's so much work to organize
everything.
Well, do you know what?
How much energy and work areyou doing handling chaos?
So, our big lesson for you onthese um on these sessions is to
think, okay, what organizationdo I need to do to make my work
more productive and more umeffective rather than constantly
(06:58):
firefighting?
That I think would be a greatobjective for you to set from
these episodes.
So let's begin.
We're gonna we're gonna dealwith this first episode purely
on one subject, which is by farthe biggest and most difficult
subject that that all teamleaders face, especially when
they're new, and that ismanaging people.
(07:19):
Okay, we're just gonna focus onmanaging people um for this
episode.
So, Jeremy, you are the newmanager.
Let's see what sort ofquestions you've got.
What questions have you got forfor the audience?
Jeremy Blake (07:33):
Well, I'd love your help, really.
I I had a Zoom today with theteam.
I mean, I I think I'm threeweeks in now, and I had Liam, um
who's clearly been there, Ithink the longest, um, most
experienced on paper, and hejust pushed back at me and said
that that what I was suggestingdidn't apply to him.
(07:54):
And I've got this overallfeeling that I mean I'm with
them remotely, I'm with themface to face.
It's that balancing act thatwe're all trying to do.
But I I just don't understandif I know they're engaged.
I just don't know.
I don't know who is they'relooking at me.
I don't know if they're reallygetting it interested.
Bob Morrell (08:10):
Okay, so here's the first question.
If I was to say to your team,what are the top three
priorities right now, what wouldthey say?
Jeremy Blake (08:20):
Um, I think they'd get the top two, but they
wouldn't get the third.
Bob Morrell (08:24):
Aha.
Okay.
So this is this is a classicthing where is everyone clear on
what the top three prioritiesare right now?
Jeremy Blake (08:36):
No, um no, we keep debating products actually.
The point three.
I don't think they're clear onwhich products are the ones that
are the autumn range.
So actually that that thatdances around a bit.
Bob Morrell (08:48):
So what could be what could be a really good um
action from this?
What could you do?
Jeremy Blake (08:55):
I reset and make very clear what the next three
months' priorities are and umand try to re-engage the focus
on that.
Bob Morrell (09:03):
And if I could make a suggestion, I would also plot
in some times to reiterate thatmessage on several occasions
over the next few weeks becauseI think uh, you know, sometimes
you say things that you thinkare totally clear and it just
doesn't go in.
And I think repetition is gonnareinforce that message, and uh
(09:26):
that's gonna really help themfocus on what the goal is.
And I would also suggest thatthey need to make sure they
understand what the goal is andthe why.
Why is that the goal?
Yeah, yeah, understand the how,so how they're going to achieve
it, and then be reminded ofthat until it is second nature
to them, so that that focusdoesn't drift, and then maybe
(09:49):
that will help them all.
And we'll come on to the yourindividual in a minute, but I
think that's a really goodpoint.
No, that's good.
Jeremy Blake (09:57):
That's good.
I mean, and and then if you'vegot Liam who says I have a
portfolio range, he's forgettingthat some of the products for
autumn have a shelf life, andwhich is why we're trying to
help people get the most out ofthem now.
Can I just focus on hispushback, the general pushback?
Sure.
So um what's your currentapproach to his pushback?
I try and make him feel thathe's his seniority as an
(10:21):
experience is a value to theteam, and that um it is for him
too, because we're all one team.
It shouldn't be that his hisroute to dealing with customers
is any different to anybodyelse's.
I I suppose I speak generalfairness back to him and it
isn't quite working.
He's still wriggling away fromit.
Bob Morrell (10:39):
Okay.
So that sounds to me as thoughyou're either backing down from
his pushback um and possiblyavoiding the friction that put
that your response to that couldcould uh Yeah.
Jeremy Blake (10:54):
I keep trying the come on, come on, but it isn't
it isn't really working.
Bob Morrell (10:58):
So let's go back to what is the why?
Why do we expect a certainstandard of performance?
Okay, we expect that for anumber of reasons.
There's business reasons forthat, there's values reasons for
that, and there's also um, youknow, some really important
commercial uh elements that arevery clear, obvious ones, yeah.
(11:21):
Okay, yeah.
That's the why.
Okay.
Now, within that, there arenon-negotiables that that are so
essential that we expect fromour um from our teams and how
they perform and what they do.
Go back to those.
What are the things that weabsolutely expect and that they
all agree are are essential?
Now, it may be that he doesn'tquite get how to get to some of
(11:45):
those non-negotiables, some ofthose objectives.
It might be that he needs someadditional training, coaching,
or support that will help him tocome closer to it.
Um, and we can we can providethat if it's required, and then
set a point to review it.
And you may need to do thatcontinually with him on his
pushback until it lands.
(12:07):
But the fact is, if he realizesthat if he pushes back and
you'll say, Okay, let's go backto why we're doing this, and
what is important about this,and what are the non-negotiables
that we've all agreed on?
Okay, what support can I giveyou?
Okay, let's review how you'redoing.
Let's review it tomorrow.
If he then does still is notgetting the message, then
there's something else.
Then it's not so much, it's notso much his inability, there's
(12:30):
something else attitudinal thatwe might need to think about.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, how does that sound?
Jeremy Blake (12:36):
No, that sounds good.
I think much clearer because uhyeah, I'm sounding quite weak
when I'm when he's when he'spushing up, really.
Pushing back.
Okay.
So you're talking about goingback, making things clear.
I don't want to be what theycomplained about, the last
person you ran the team.
I don't want to be a kind ofmicromanager.
And that's you know, it's areally weird balance.
(12:57):
You you're trying to check inwith people, help them, um, but
then you don't want to comeacross as, you know, being over
their shoulder.
Bob Morrell (13:05):
I know what you mean, but it's similar with your
with your pushback person,really.
I've you know, often in Teams,people, some teams that you and
I have seen in our career, youknow, I'm sure, either have to
appear to have total freedom andyou think, well, I don't know
how that works, or you havemanagers who are literally
sitting on top of people andit's too close, and there's very
(13:26):
little in between.
Now it comes back to this thingabout um this balance, which is
what are number one, what arethe clear expectations?
Okay, what is success?
What does it look like?
Can we all see what that lookslike?
Can we all envision what thatlooks like?
Yes, it does.
Right.
We can see what the success is,we can we're absolutely clear
(13:48):
on it.
So let's now schedule somecheckpoints to check that we're
moving towards that level ofsuccess in the right way.
And of course, there are lotsof things that our teams have to
do, lots of tasks they have todo.
Those will result in outcomes.
What are the outcomes of thosetasks?
If we know what those outcomesare, the person isn't just
thinking about what their jobis, but what is the outcome
(14:09):
they're moving towards, andthat's going to give the results
that appear.
Now, that is something that wego back into.
I we want our people to be thebest they can be, to um to
understand those expectationsand then try and meet those
expectations as as hard as theypossibly can.
Um, and we're there to supportthem with those checkpoints and
(14:33):
make sure they're focusing onoutcomes.
That means we've gotaccountability for what it is
they're doing, but there's alsosome freedom for them to operate
as individuals.
And that I think is the perfectbalance.
It's a tough one to strike, butit's that first element.
What is success?
If we get that really clear,then the rest of it should fall
into place.
How does that feel?
Jeremy Blake (14:54):
Yeah, that sounds good.
I'm gonna ask one more, onemore question, and then what
we're gonna do in this podcastis we're gonna go to a quick
fire where I'm gonna firequestions at you and you kind of
go through some top tips.
So, one other thing, Bob, withthis team of mine, you know,
I've got vocal Liam, but I'vegot very quiet people who don't
open up to me.
And also, when you came in theother day and you helped run
(15:14):
that meeting and you were kindof talking, there's some people
who just don't talk much, don'tshare much.
How can I get these people toopen up?
I've got a few of them.
Bob Morrell (15:24):
Well, I think that's um a very interesting
point.
Lots of teams have uh allvarious types in these days, and
some people aren't very vocal,not very uh open when it comes
to coming forward with ideas andum perspectives.
Um, I think with somebody somepeople who are quiet, it's a
nice thing to do to say, look,this idea you've got about
(15:46):
whatever it may be, I think it'sa really important thing for
you to share.
So I'm going to ask you to talka bit about that when we all
meet together.
Nice, so pre, pre, set it up,prep prep them in advance.
Good, and then when when you'rein that situation, you just
gently call them in and justsay, Look, you were talking
about something I think it wouldbe really good for you to share
and get them to share it.
(16:06):
Um, it is public, of course,but I think after you've had
that discussion, make it inpublic again.
Say, I really appreciate yousharing that thing you did in
there.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, yeah.
Those three elements sound sosimple that then once I know
that that's what it's going tobe, then I'm much more likely to
want to chip in.
Jeremy Blake (16:26):
At reality training, we spend a lot of time
working with team leaders.
Team leaders are a reallyimportant part of modern
businesses.
And if they're skilled atleadership, they can really
create a high-performing,motivated and productive team.
If they lack skills andknowledge, then that's where we
(16:47):
can come in.
We know what it is to be asuccessful team leader, and
we've got a series of modules onareas like presentation skills,
time management, runningmeetings, performance coaching,
delegation, and how to manageremote teams and many more.
These make a really bigdifference to your team leaders'
effectiveness and the resultsthey can produce with their
(17:10):
people.
We know that team leaders areessential these days, probably
more than ever, and we also knowhow to make them really good at
what they do.
For more information on how wecan help your team leaders
transform your business, contactreality training.
Selling certainty.
Right, we're now going to moveto the quickfire round, which
(17:33):
are questions we are often askedby team leaders.
And I'm now going to be thisteam leader, and I want you to
think of these questions.
So, really succinct answers,Bobby.
How do I give feedback?
Bob Morrell (17:47):
Simple.
Number one, start with whatworked.
Okay.
Number two, the one thing thatI would improve or change or
make better would be this.
And then three, a belief.
You're capable of doing this.
I think it's going to make abig difference.
It's going to be reallyfantastic.
Those three things mean thatwhenever you give feedback, the
(18:09):
people are open to it and wantto hear it.
Jeremy Blake (18:12):
We live in a meetings culture.
Number two, how can I howshould I open my meetings?
Bob Morrell (18:18):
Okay, first of all, uh, it's the first minute that
makes all the difference.
So you've got to absolutely getthat first minute right.
So don't open with a load ofsmall talk crap or really loose
agendas.
Be really solid at thebeginning of the meeting.
There's three things toremember.
Number one, what is the purposeof this meeting?
One clear line.
Don't pussyfit around.
(18:39):
One clear tagline for themeeting.
Two, set the time expectationand stick to it.
And number three, assign rolesin the meeting.
Someone's going to take notes,someone's going to manage the
time, someone's going to take usthrough some feedback from
yesterday.
Make sure everyone understandsroles that will focus people in
(18:59):
team meetings.
Jeremy Blake (19:05):
Next question.
Let's go back to the actionsthat we got earlier.
Bob Morrell (19:12):
The clarity of purpose.
A leader should be able todefine succinctly what success
looks like.
Okay.
So you look up and you think,yeah, that's what the vision is
of what we're what it is we'retrying to do.
So define the what and the why.
We are doing this thing toachieve this.
Great, I get that.
(19:32):
Um, sometimes you can come toyour team and go, okay, that's
the what and the why.
You tell me what's the how.
How do we get to that?
Absolutely.
And then lastly, set afollow-up.
Jeremy Blake (19:44):
I could put it to them, yeah.
Good.
Um, they see me as somebody whoshould know a lot of answers
because I did the job before fora number of years and then just
stepped into leadership.
Bob Morrell (19:56):
What do I do when I don't have all the answers?
So don't pretend you know anddodge the answer, and don't
pretend that's just it's notgoing to work and it's going to
undermine trust, and leadershipis all about trust.
Number one, acknowledge youdon't have all the answers.
Number two, tell them what youdo know for certain, whatever
that may be, and then set a nextstep.
(20:18):
I will find out more and updateyou at a certain time.
That's the best you can do.
Um, but it will engender trust.
Jeremy Blake (20:31):
Two of the people in the team, one guy, one girl,
um, I knew very closely.
They're really lovely people,but they just don't perform.
How do I deal with nice guys inthe other thing?
Bob Morrell (20:40):
Lots of people trade in their jobs on their
likability and they thinkthey're too likable to get rid
of.
Um, I think it's important tocome back to what the goals are
of the organization with withthe individual and the goals of
the team.
Um, I think you can thereforeshow them the data because they
(21:01):
can't hide from the data.
So they're really good, but youknow, they're not doing their
best.
Um, you then help themunderstand that likability
doesn't beat performance.
You can appreciate them as agreat teammate, but you make it
(21:24):
clear the output has got toimprove.
Jeremy Blake (21:27):
Next question.
I've got two people both verygood on their own, they refuse
to work together, and it's akind of constant, you know,
elephant in the room.
How can I get them to try andtry and work together?
Bob Morrell (21:39):
Number one, how does that poor relationship
affect the goals that you'reheading towards?
Quite a lot.
It's a general area ofnegativity.
You need to make that veryclear to them that that is uh
detrimental.
You then have to create astructured collaboration between
the two.
Yeah.
And they're not going to likethat, but that is leadership is
to is to build on whatever theydo have and make it better.
(22:02):
They then have to have jointaccountability meetings through
that process on thatcollaborative element.
Um, because if you don't getthem to work together, what
you're training is youravoidance of that issue.
Jeremy Blake (22:18):
Yeah, very good.
Bob Morrell (22:19):
And that will just undermine my last one for now.
Jeremy Blake (22:22):
Neggies, neggies, neggies.
Everyone's got a neggy.
What's the most simple adviceyou can give to new team
leaders, including me, dealingwith negative people?
Bob Morrell (22:34):
You sometimes get a real negative person in a
meeting chiming in.
Acknowledge their concern.
I hear that concern, I hear it.
Then throw it back to them.
What solution do you see forthis then?
Um okay, that's difficult.
Now they may not have anysolutions.
(22:54):
They may say, Well, I I don'tthink it's relevant, I don't
think we should be doing it.
Well, I heard what you saidabout it.
What's the solution?
Because it's not disappearing.
What's the solution?
And then you can say, Look,let's reframe this.
What are the things we cancontrol?
Well, we could control our theway we feel about it, we can it
we can control what we do, wecan control different elements
(23:16):
of it.
Let's reframe that solution.
And the moment people startbeing negative and you start
asking for solutions, differentparts of the brain engage, and
it becomes very important.
Rather than the moan.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So there we are.
Jeremy Blake (23:30):
So last last thought in this episode.
I think it was Drucker who saidum culture, you know, eat
strategy for breakfast orwhatever it was.
You know, just the companyculture is the dominating force,
how people sort of feel aroundthere.
Some of the team go to teamleaders and and sort of want
them to change the culture ofthe organization.
(23:52):
You know, well, you're you'renow a leader.
Come on, this is wrong that wehave this, this is wrong that we
have these things going on.
So, what would you say to teamleaders who quite simply they
can't change the culture of theorganization, but they've got to
kind of mentally deal with thatand respond to that.
Bob Morrell (24:09):
It's it's it's really difficult because um as
as individuals we uh we havethese things uh given to us by
an organization.
As an individual, of course youcan't change the culture of um
of your organization.
The only thing you can changeis the culture in your team.
(24:32):
And if you create a team thathas a fantastic culture, then
those people will be successfuland they will move to other
teams and they will spread thatidea of what a great culture is.
Okay.
You cannot say our new cultureis gonna be this and we're gonna
become it from above.
It just doesn't work that way.
(24:53):
No, it has to be that teamleader going, This is what we're
gonna create, it's gonna beamazing, and let's all work in
it together.
And as you are successful, youwill go to other teams and you
will spread that culture.
And I think if you take morepersonal responsibility for
that, then you're gonna be moresuccessful.
Jeremy Blake (25:09):
I'm just thinking that's almost like families,
isn't it?
You can't when the all whenwhen about five siblings and
their next families all gatherat Christmas, you've still got
five different cultures becauseeach family's gone off and
created its own mini culture,hasn't it?
From the matriarch or thepatriarch before them.
Very good.
Well, look, hopefully you'veenjoyed that episode.
We're gonna do another one,aren't we, in the canon, which
(25:30):
is you know, definitely this isa big topic, team leaders.
We're gonna move away frompeople in the next one.
So, do you want to let themknow what it's about?
And then we're gonna sign offand then we'll get you to tune
in.
Bob Morrell (25:41):
The next one's gonna be all about managing time
and managing work.
And I'll leave you with onelittle thing to think about.
In most movies, leaders thatare portrayed are bad leaders
because bad leaders are muchmore exciting and interesting.
Yeah, if you go into a reallygood organization where everyone
(26:04):
gets on, when you look around,it's actually not that exciting.
That's because everyone'smotivated, knows what they're
doing, and there's a lot ofself-leadership going on.
And I think if when it comes tomanaging people, that idea of
creating pockets ofself-leadership is a great
objective.
Jeremy Blake (26:19):
Good stuff.
Thanks, Bobby, for this fastand furious um episode on team
leadership.
Hopefully, you've enjoyed it,and we'll see you on another one
soon.
Bye.
So um look, Jeremy, I really appreciate um you
taking us through this in thismeeting, but I just want to make
it clear that um I this doesn'treally apply to me, does it?
What you're asking.
I know you're the team leader,but this doesn't really apply to
me, does it?
Jeremy Blake (00:46):
I think I think it does.
I think I think uh regardlessof experience, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I do.
Bob Morrell (00:51):
I know, but you know, I've been doing this a
long time and I've never beenasked to do these sorts of
things before.
So I don't think this appliesto me.
And I think if you check up theline, it won't be something
that I have to to focus on,okay?
Yeah.
Um okay.
Jeremy Blake (01:08):
Uh um I I um I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna come
back to you, okay?
Bob Morrell (01:13):
Fine, you can do that, but uh yeah, it's it I
don't need to be in this meetinganymore, so I'm gonna click
off.
Okay, cheers.
Bye.
Jeremy Blake (01:21):
Ooh.
We're gonna deal with thingslike this today when you're
leading people.
So, Bobby, can you intro?
We've got some new episodeswe've been researching, and
we're gonna launch today, aren'twe?
So, what are they about?
What are we doing?
Bob Morrell (01:34):
We are gonna do two episodes focusing on team
leaders and team leadership.
We need to be clear about whatteam leadership actually is, and
in fact, what is leadershipoverall, especially when it
comes to running things liketeams, and most organizations
thrive on having efficientteams.
(01:56):
And also, we've broken downthis subject into three broad
areas, but there's a kind of anoverall arching thing here
because uh we're currentlyworking on two massive projects
at the moment, and we're doing alot of work with team leaders,
and a lot of the success of thework that we do hinges on those
(02:17):
team leaders being able to leadeffectively.
And what we just heard therewas an example of a not very
effective team leader whodoesn't know how to deal with an
individual in their team who isgiving them refusals and
pushback.
And this is something that wecome across a lot, and we want
(02:39):
to empower team leaders to beable to cope in all sorts of
situations so that they can leadtheir people effectively.
Jeremy Blake (02:48):
If you're listening to this and you are a
team leader, it could be thatyou have the classic ratio.
You have about eight, 10, 12.
And if you're someone whomanages team leaders, however
many you have, you may realizethat kind of dynamic where
you're overseeing potentially aregion, it could be a geographic
region, of course, it could bea non-geographic region, and
(03:08):
you've got these team leaderswho are much closer to the
people talking to customers, andthat's the point.
Is the reason why Bob said ithinges on them.
They're the closest person tosomeone doing the work and
feeling customer reactions,whether those are business
people or consumers.
Bob Morrell (03:26):
Now, in my experience, um, a lot of the
team leaders that we work with,I think they break down into two
camps, and I want to make Iwant to be very clear about what
those two camps are.
There are leaders who see theirjob really as administrators,
(03:47):
and what they want to do, whatthey aim to do, is to get
everyone feeling as comfortableas possible and for everything
to tick over in a relativelyokay way.
So that's one type of leader,and then the other type are what
you might term far more dynamicleaders who are far more
(04:08):
involved, far more proactivewith their teams, looking to
improve what their teams do allthe time.
So if you're in that secondcamp, we're gonna give you lots
of stuff today that's gonna helpyou.
If you're in that first camp,our challenge to you is we're
not sure that you areeffectively leading if you just
want everyone to be happy andcomfortable and just ticking
(04:31):
over.
That's not leading.
That is simply caretakingperformance, and that's not what
leadership is.
Leadership is absolutelyfocusing on your people, raising
standards, unlocking potential,and your job as a leader is to
create a bridge between wherepeople are and where you need
them to be.
(04:52):
That's what you're there to do.
And a lot of what we're gonnathink about on these two
episodes is focused on thoseareas.
We want to make sure that you,as students of leadership, are
able to absolutely apply this toyour people right from now.
And I think it's gonna make ahuge difference to your outcomes
and your success.
Jeremy Blake (05:13):
I think the other thing I would just say is
probably more so in the lastfive years than in maybe any
other period in a long time,lots of people have been
promoted into leadership withoutnecessarily setting out with
that ideology that they would goup that career path.
Quite often they findthemselves in a position where
company scales change andthey're asked to step up.
(05:36):
And that's why I'm going to, inthis episode, become that new
leader.
So, what we're gonna try is thedynamic where Bob is, in a
sense, the more senior leader,and he's trying to help me
understand this world I'mentering.
So I'm gonna be green.
Bob Morrell (05:52):
Okay, now let's just uh deal with the first
point.
A lot of organizations, and youmay well be in one, the reason
they don't have a consistentleadership strategy is really
because of two things.
It's either one laziness, andthat's a tough thing to hear,
but some people just can't bebothered to put together a
decent leadership strategy.
(06:13):
And the second is an addictionto firefighting because all the
time you're dealing with crises,you feel as though you're being
productive.
And actually, if you organizedthe work and what you did more
effectively, which is whatleadership is, you would be more
effective.
(06:33):
Um, it does take work toorganize it, and everyone
thinks, oh, I can't be bothered,it's so much work to organize
everything.
Well, do you know what?
How much energy and work areyou doing handling chaos?
So, our big lesson for you onthese um on these sessions is to
think, okay, what organizationdo I need to do to make my work
more productive and more umeffective rather than constantly
(06:58):
firefighting?
That I think would be a greatobjective for you to set from
these episodes.
So let's begin.
We're gonna we're gonna dealwith this first episode purely
on one subject, which is by farthe biggest and most difficult
subject that that all teamleaders face, especially when
they're new, and that ismanaging people.
(07:19):
Okay, we're just gonna focus onmanaging people um for this
episode.
So, Jeremy, you are the newmanager.
Let's see what sort ofquestions you've got.
What questions have you got forfor the audience?
Jeremy Blake (07:33):
Well, I'd love your help, really.
I I had a Zoom today with theteam.
I mean, I I think I'm threeweeks in now, and I had Liam, um
who's clearly been there, Ithink the longest, um, most
experienced on paper, and hejust pushed back at me and said
that that what I was suggestingdidn't apply to him.
(07:54):
And I've got this overallfeeling that I mean I'm with
them remotely, I'm with themface to face.
It's that balancing act thatwe're all trying to do.
But I I just don't understandif I know they're engaged.
I just don't know.
I don't know who is they'relooking at me.
I don't know if they're reallygetting it interested.
Bob Morrell (08:10):
Okay, so here's the first question.
If I was to say to your team,what are the top three
priorities right now, what wouldthey say?
Jeremy Blake (08:20):
Um, I think they'd get the top two, but they
wouldn't get the third.
Bob Morrell (08:24):
Aha.
Okay.
So this is this is a classicthing where is everyone clear on
what the top three prioritiesare right now?
Jeremy Blake (08:36):
No, um no, we keep debating products actually.
The point three.
I don't think they're clear onwhich products are the ones that
are the autumn range.
So actually that that thatdances around a bit.
Bob Morrell (08:48):
So what could be what could be a really good um
action from this?
What could you do?
Jeremy Blake (08:55):
I reset and make very clear what the next three
months' priorities are and umand try to re-engage the focus
on that.
Bob Morrell (09:03):
And if I could make a suggestion, I would also plot
in some times to reiterate thatmessage on several occasions
over the next few weeks becauseI think uh, you know, sometimes
you say things that you thinkare totally clear and it just
doesn't go in.
And I think repetition is gonnareinforce that message, and uh
(09:26):
that's gonna really help themfocus on what the goal is.
And I would also suggest thatthey need to make sure they
understand what the goal is andthe why.
Why is that the goal?
Yeah, yeah, understand the how,so how they're going to achieve
it, and then be reminded ofthat until it is second nature
to them, so that that focusdoesn't drift, and then maybe
(09:49):
that will help them all.
And we'll come on to the yourindividual in a minute, but I
think that's a really goodpoint.
No, that's good.
Jeremy Blake (09:57):
That's good.
I mean, and and then if you'vegot Liam who says I have a
portfolio range, he's forgettingthat some of the products for
autumn have a shelf life, andwhich is why we're trying to
help people get the most out ofthem now.
Can I just focus on hispushback, the general pushback?
Sure.
So um what's your currentapproach to his pushback?
I try and make him feel thathe's his seniority as an
(10:21):
experience is a value to theteam, and that um it is for him
too, because we're all one team.
It shouldn't be that his hisroute to dealing with customers
is any different to anybodyelse's.
I I suppose I speak generalfairness back to him and it
isn't quite working.
He's still wriggling away fromit.
Bob Morrell (10:39):
Okay.
So that sounds to me as thoughyou're either backing down from
his pushback um and possiblyavoiding the friction that put
that your response to that couldcould uh Yeah.
Jeremy Blake (10:54):
I keep trying the come on, come on, but it isn't
it isn't really working.
Bob Morrell (10:58):
So let's go back to what is the why?
Why do we expect a certainstandard of performance?
Okay, we expect that for anumber of reasons.
There's business reasons forthat, there's values reasons for
that, and there's also um, youknow, some really important
commercial uh elements that arevery clear, obvious ones, yeah.
(11:21):
Okay, yeah.
That's the why.
Okay.
Now, within that, there arenon-negotiables that that are so
essential that we expect fromour um from our teams and how
they perform and what they do.
Go back to those.
What are the things that weabsolutely expect and that they
all agree are are essential?
Now, it may be that he doesn'tquite get how to get to some of
(11:45):
those non-negotiables, some ofthose objectives.
It might be that he needs someadditional training, coaching,
or support that will help him tocome closer to it.
Um, and we can we can providethat if it's required, and then
set a point to review it.
And you may need to do thatcontinually with him on his
pushback until it lands.
(12:07):
But the fact is, if he realizesthat if he pushes back and
you'll say, Okay, let's go backto why we're doing this, and
what is important about this,and what are the non-negotiables
that we've all agreed on?
Okay, what support can I giveyou?
Okay, let's review how you'redoing.
Let's review it tomorrow.
If he then does still is notgetting the message, then
there's something else.
Then it's not so much, it's notso much his inability, there's
(12:30):
something else attitudinal thatwe might need to think about.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, how does that sound?
Jeremy Blake (12:36):
No, that sounds good.
I think much clearer because uhyeah, I'm sounding quite weak
when I'm when he's when he'spushing up, really.
Pushing back.
Okay.
So you're talking about goingback, making things clear.
I don't want to be what theycomplained about, the last
person you ran the team.
I don't want to be a kind ofmicromanager.
And that's you know, it's areally weird balance.
(12:57):
You you're trying to check inwith people, help them, um, but
then you don't want to comeacross as, you know, being over
their shoulder.
Bob Morrell (13:05):
I know what you mean, but it's similar with your
with your pushback person,really.
I've you know, often in Teams,people, some teams that you and
I have seen in our career, youknow, I'm sure, either have to
appear to have total freedom andyou think, well, I don't know
how that works, or you havemanagers who are literally
sitting on top of people andit's too close, and there's very
(13:26):
little in between.
Now it comes back to this thingabout um this balance, which is
what are number one, what arethe clear expectations?
Okay, what is success?
What does it look like?
Can we all see what that lookslike?
Can we all envision what thatlooks like?
Yes, it does.
Right.
We can see what the success is,we can we're absolutely clear
(13:48):
on it.
So let's now schedule somecheckpoints to check that we're
moving towards that level ofsuccess in the right way.
And of course, there are lotsof things that our teams have to
do, lots of tasks they have todo.
Those will result in outcomes.
What are the outcomes of thosetasks?
If we know what those outcomesare, the person isn't just
thinking about what their jobis, but what is the outcome
(14:09):
they're moving towards, andthat's going to give the results
that appear.
Now, that is something that wego back into.
I we want our people to be thebest they can be, to um to
understand those expectationsand then try and meet those
expectations as as hard as theypossibly can.
Um, and we're there to supportthem with those checkpoints and
(14:33):
make sure they're focusing onoutcomes.
That means we've gotaccountability for what it is
they're doing, but there's alsosome freedom for them to operate
as individuals.
And that I think is the perfectbalance.
It's a tough one to strike, butit's that first element.
What is success?
If we get that really clear,then the rest of it should fall
into place.
How does that feel?
Jeremy Blake (14:54):
Yeah, that sounds good.
I'm gonna ask one more, onemore question, and then what
we're gonna do in this podcastis we're gonna go to a quick
fire where I'm gonna firequestions at you and you kind of
go through some top tips.
So, one other thing, Bob, withthis team of mine, you know,
I've got vocal Liam, but I'vegot very quiet people who don't
open up to me.
And also, when you came in theother day and you helped run
(15:14):
that meeting and you were kindof talking, there's some people
who just don't talk much, don'tshare much.
How can I get these people toopen up?
I've got a few of them.
Bob Morrell (15:24):
Well, I think that's um a very interesting
point.
Lots of teams have uh allvarious types in these days, and
some people aren't very vocal,not very uh open when it comes
to coming forward with ideas andum perspectives.
Um, I think with somebody somepeople who are quiet, it's a
nice thing to do to say, look,this idea you've got about
(15:46):
whatever it may be, I think it'sa really important thing for
you to share.
So I'm going to ask you to talka bit about that when we all
meet together.
Nice, so pre, pre, set it up,prep prep them in advance.
Good, and then when when you'rein that situation, you just
gently call them in and justsay, Look, you were talking
about something I think it wouldbe really good for you to share
and get them to share it.
(16:06):
Um, it is public, of course,but I think after you've had
that discussion, make it inpublic again.
Say, I really appreciate yousharing that thing you did in
there.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, yeah.
Those three elements sound sosimple that then once I know
that that's what it's going tobe, then I'm much more likely to
want to chip in.
Jeremy Blake (16:26):
At reality training, we spend a lot of time
working with team leaders.
Team leaders are a reallyimportant part of modern
businesses.
And if they're skilled atleadership, they can really
create a high-performing,motivated and productive team.
If they lack skills andknowledge, then that's where we
(16:47):
can come in.
We know what it is to be asuccessful team leader, and
we've got a series of modules onareas like presentation skills,
time management, runningmeetings, performance coaching,
delegation, and how to manageremote teams and many more.
These make a really bigdifference to your team leaders'
effectiveness and the resultsthey can produce with their
(17:10):
people.
We know that team leaders areessential these days, probably
more than ever, and we also knowhow to make them really good at
what they do.
For more information on how wecan help your team leaders
transform your business, contactreality training.
Selling certainty.
Right, we're now going to moveto the quickfire round, which
(17:33):
are questions we are often askedby team leaders.
And I'm now going to be thisteam leader, and I want you to
think of these questions.
So, really succinct answers,Bobby.
How do I give feedback?
Bob Morrell (17:47):
Simple.
Number one, start with whatworked.
Okay.
Number two, the one thing thatI would improve or change or
make better would be this.
And then three, a belief.
You're capable of doing this.
I think it's going to make abig difference.
It's going to be reallyfantastic.
Those three things mean thatwhenever you give feedback, the
(18:09):
people are open to it and wantto hear it.
Jeremy Blake (18:12):
We live in a meetings culture.
Number two, how can I howshould I open my meetings?
Bob Morrell (18:18):
Okay, first of all, uh, it's the first minute that
makes all the difference.
So you've got to absolutely getthat first minute right.
So don't open with a load ofsmall talk crap or really loose
agendas.
Be really solid at thebeginning of the meeting.
There's three things toremember.
Number one, what is the purposeof this meeting?
One clear line.
Don't pussyfit around.
(18:39):
One clear tagline for themeeting.
Two, set the time expectationand stick to it.
And number three, assign rolesin the meeting.
Someone's going to take notes,someone's going to manage the
time, someone's going to take usthrough some feedback from
yesterday.
Make sure everyone understandsroles that will focus people in
(18:59):
team meetings.
Jeremy Blake (19:05):
Next question.
Let's go back to the actionsthat we got earlier.
Bob Morrell (19:12):
The clarity of purpose.
A leader should be able todefine succinctly what success
looks like.
Okay.
So you look up and you think,yeah, that's what the vision is
of what we're what it is we'retrying to do.
So define the what and the why.
We are doing this thing toachieve this.
Great, I get that.
(19:32):
Um, sometimes you can come toyour team and go, okay, that's
the what and the why.
You tell me what's the how.
How do we get to that?
Absolutely.
And then lastly, set afollow-up.
Jeremy Blake (19:44):
I could put it to them, yeah.
Good.
Um, they see me as somebody whoshould know a lot of answers
because I did the job before fora number of years and then just
stepped into leadership.
Bob Morrell (19:56):
What do I do when I don't have all the answers?
So don't pretend you know anddodge the answer, and don't
pretend that's just it's notgoing to work and it's going to
undermine trust, and leadershipis all about trust.
Number one, acknowledge youdon't have all the answers.
Number two, tell them what youdo know for certain, whatever
that may be, and then set a nextstep.
(20:18):
I will find out more and updateyou at a certain time.
That's the best you can do.
Um, but it will engender trust.
Jeremy Blake (20:31):
Two of the people in the team, one guy, one girl,
um, I knew very closely.
They're really lovely people,but they just don't perform.
How do I deal with nice guys inthe other thing?
Bob Morrell (20:40):
Lots of people trade in their jobs on their
likability and they thinkthey're too likable to get rid
of.
Um, I think it's important tocome back to what the goals are
of the organization with withthe individual and the goals of
the team.
Um, I think you can thereforeshow them the data because they
(21:01):
can't hide from the data.
So they're really good, but youknow, they're not doing their
best.
Um, you then help themunderstand that likability
doesn't beat performance.
You can appreciate them as agreat teammate, but you make it
(21:24):
clear the output has got toimprove.
Jeremy Blake (21:27):
Next question.
I've got two people both verygood on their own, they refuse
to work together, and it's akind of constant, you know,
elephant in the room.
How can I get them to try andtry and work together?
Bob Morrell (21:39):
Number one, how does that poor relationship
affect the goals that you'reheading towards?
Quite a lot.
It's a general area ofnegativity.
You need to make that veryclear to them that that is uh
detrimental.
You then have to create astructured collaboration between
the two.
Yeah.
And they're not going to likethat, but that is leadership is
to is to build on whatever theydo have and make it better.
(22:02):
They then have to have jointaccountability meetings through
that process on thatcollaborative element.
Um, because if you don't getthem to work together, what
you're training is youravoidance of that issue.
Jeremy Blake (22:18):
Yeah, very good.
Bob Morrell (22:19):
And that will just undermine my last one for now.
Jeremy Blake (22:22):
Neggies, neggies, neggies.
Everyone's got a neggy.
What's the most simple adviceyou can give to new team
leaders, including me, dealingwith negative people?
Bob Morrell (22:34):
You sometimes get a real negative person in a
meeting chiming in.
Acknowledge their concern.
I hear that concern, I hear it.
Then throw it back to them.
What solution do you see forthis then?
Um okay, that's difficult.
Now they may not have anysolutions.
(22:54):
They may say, Well, I I don'tthink it's relevant, I don't
think we should be doing it.
Well, I heard what you saidabout it.
What's the solution?
Because it's not disappearing.
What's the solution?
And then you can say, Look,let's reframe this.
What are the things we cancontrol?
Well, we could control our theway we feel about it, we can it
we can control what we do, wecan control different elements
(23:16):
of it.
Let's reframe that solution.
And the moment people startbeing negative and you start
asking for solutions, differentparts of the brain engage, and
it becomes very important.
Rather than the moan.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So there we are.
Jeremy Blake (23:30):
So last last thought in this episode.
I think it was Drucker who saidum culture, you know, eat
strategy for breakfast orwhatever it was.
You know, just the companyculture is the dominating force,
how people sort of feel aroundthere.
Some of the team go to teamleaders and and sort of want
them to change the culture ofthe organization.
(23:52):
You know, well, you're you'renow a leader.
Come on, this is wrong that wehave this, this is wrong that we
have these things going on.
So, what would you say to teamleaders who quite simply they
can't change the culture of theorganization, but they've got to
kind of mentally deal with thatand respond to that.
Bob Morrell (24:09):
It's it's it's really difficult because um as
as individuals we uh we havethese things uh given to us by
an organization.
As an individual, of course youcan't change the culture of um
of your organization.
The only thing you can changeis the culture in your team.
(24:32):
And if you create a team thathas a fantastic culture, then
those people will be successfuland they will move to other
teams and they will spread thatidea of what a great culture is.
Okay.
You cannot say our new cultureis gonna be this and we're gonna
become it from above.
It just doesn't work that way.
(24:53):
No, it has to be that teamleader going, This is what we're
gonna create, it's gonna beamazing, and let's all work in
it together.
And as you are successful, youwill go to other teams and you
will spread that culture.
And I think if you take morepersonal responsibility for
that, then you're gonna be moresuccessful.
Jeremy Blake (25:09):
I'm just thinking that's almost like families,
isn't it?
You can't when the all whenwhen about five siblings and
their next families all gatherat Christmas, you've still got
five different cultures becauseeach family's gone off and
created its own mini culture,hasn't it?
From the matriarch or thepatriarch before them.
Very good.
Well, look, hopefully you'veenjoyed that episode.
We're gonna do another one,aren't we, in the canon, which
(25:30):
is you know, definitely this isa big topic, team leaders.
We're gonna move away frompeople in the next one.
So, do you want to let themknow what it's about?
And then we're gonna sign offand then we'll get you to tune
in.
Bob Morrell (25:41):
The next one's gonna be all about managing time
and managing work.
And I'll leave you with onelittle thing to think about.
In most movies, leaders thatare portrayed are bad leaders
because bad leaders are muchmore exciting and interesting.
Yeah, if you go into a reallygood organization where everyone
(26:04):
gets on, when you look around,it's actually not that exciting.
That's because everyone'smotivated, knows what they're
doing, and there's a lot ofself-leadership going on.
And I think if when it comes tomanaging people, that idea of
creating pockets ofself-leadership is a great
objective.
Jeremy Blake (26:19):
Good stuff.
Thanks, Bobby, for this fastand furious um episode on team
leadership.
Hopefully, you've enjoyed it,and we'll see you on another one
soon.
Bye.
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