December 6, 2024 • 49 mins
Digital nomads: A lifestyle revolution or a passing trend?
Can remote work truly free us from the traditional office, blending adventure with productivity? Or is it an overhyped fad destined to fade away?
Join us as we explore the intriguing world of digital nomads – exploring the rise of this global phenomenon and the unexpected challenges it brings.
Through engaging anecdotes and a fictional exchange between a CEO and a director debating the push for more in-office days, we reveal the realities of working remotely abroad. Discover how millions are embracing this liberating lifestyle, and how it compares to the entire working population of the UK.
We uncover the staggering growth of digital nomad communities, the origins of the term, and the appeal of new visas offered by countries like Portugal and Spain. Whether you’re a millennial seeking adventure or a seasoned traveller chasing freedom, we look at how technology is reshaping work in a globalised world.
But it’s not all glamour. We examine the pros and cons of life on the move – balancing exploration with safety concerns, time zone headaches, and the realities of adapting to local cultures. What does this shift mean for businesses and economies? And how can companies harness this trend to create dynamic workforces?
Whether you’re considering a digital nomad lifestyle or just curious about this cultural shift, this episode offers a thought-provoking look into how remote work can blossom into a truly enriching existence. Tune in for insights, inspiration, and practical advice!
For more info, free resources, useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Luke, can you hear me okay?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Yes, hello, sebastian .
I must say it's very nice tohear from the CEO once in a
while.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Well, yes, sorry if it has been a while.
Things have been quite busy andwell, your marketing is
marvellous, the stuff you'reproducing, the team, all working
well.
I wanted to talk to youpersonally.
I only need a few minutes, justa bit of a change.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
We've got a couple of weeks left of the month, and
then what we're suggesting isfrom the first of next month.
Um, especially you as adirector.
Uh, all of us.
We're going to be in four daysa week.
Now I don't mind if you havethe friday at home or the monday
, but I'm sure that's good withyou.
Four days a week, okay?
Oh, I see you?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
you mean in the, in the office in london yes, back
in.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yes, I know it's been a while.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I know it's been well , it's funny, you should say
that, um, I'm not sure that'sgoing to work because, um, as of
next week, um, I'm booked towork, well, for the next three
months, anyway, in portugal.
What so?
Yeah, they've given me one oftheir digital nomad visas,
because I've been working soeffectively, uh, from home, that
(01:05):
I just thought, well, I may aswell go and spend a few months
in the sun working there.
And, yeah, I've got a littleplace sorted and I'm going out
there.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
How is this going to work?
Because you know the directivewe're doing is we've got to be
in four days a week.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, I don't know where that's come from and,
again, this is the first I'veheard of it.
But you've you know.
As you know, I do good work.
I can coordinate the marketingand have the meetings from just
about anywhere.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Let me stop you there .
I'm going to have to talk toMaureen in HR.
I'm going to have to get moregend up.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Well, have a chat with Maureen, and I mean you
might be aware that there's anumber of us digital nomads on
the books already, so theremight be something to consider I
will come back to you luke.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Um, okay, I'll come back to you luke, okay.
(02:23):
Hi Bobby, how are you doing?
Hello?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
there, Jeremy, I'm very well indeed.
How are you sir?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, fine, I'm intrigued at this.
As you can imagine, I'm playinga little sketch to begin and
I'm thinking, gosh, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
It is and, for those who may not yet be up on what
we're actually talking about,it's really straightforward.
Talking about it's reallystraightforward.
We're going to be talking abouthybrid working and the current
trends when it comes to how wework as organizations.
We're then going to move intothe very interesting world of
digital nomads and I've got alittle quiz for you, jeremy, on
(02:59):
the statistics of digital nomadsacross the world and then we're
going to think about how thatactually works in practice, and
I've done a lot of research intothis and it's absolutely
amazing what's currently takingplace, and I think you're going
to find it really interesting.
So, yes, that's what we're onabout.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So let's go back to my little favorite thing to
often kick things off.
I'm 11 years old, uncle Bobby,what's this thing that you were
talking to Aunty Susie about?
About digital nomads, what'sall that?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Well, little Jeremy, a digital nomad is very simply
somebody who can do all of theirwork from just about any
location on earth, as long asthey have a really good Wi-Fi
connection.
So, as an 11 year old, you knowthat that's the first thing you
ask.
Never you enter any building itis what's the.
(03:52):
Wi-fi code well.
I could be anywhere on earthwith a good Wi-Fi code and I
could do my job eight hours aday, and that means that I can
travel around, living indifferent places, experiencing
different cultures and workingeffectively.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Is that because mum says you come up with ideas but
other people do all the work?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Maybe that may be the case, and I may as well have
them in a sunny climate asopposed to in the horrendous,
because you always on just yourlaptop.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I don't see you sort of making things or doing things
like like my dad you know hegoes into a building and he
makes all this stuff was.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
He's a tool maker, isn't he?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:35):
well, quite senior in a good company that make really
good hammers, but yeah, yeah,well, that's great, and you know
, that's a really importantthing.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
my company is a digital marketing company, and
that's what we do.
We get most of our inquiriesthrough the internet, and so
that means we can work anywherein order to make that shop
window look fantastic.
The other side of that is let'sthink about the weather.
So we're recording this today,and it has just stopped raining
(05:04):
here.
It's been raining all morning,solidly, and we've had a pretty
wet year.
Actually, over through the year, the summer was a bit of a
washout and it hasn't beenterrific.
When I was researching this, Ijust thought, okay, I've got all
(05:25):
the stats here, which we'llcome on to in a bit.
How could I spend the majorityof the winter living somewhere a
bit warmer, a bit sunnier, abit cheaper, actually, in most
cases.
What would that mean?
And it is surprisinglyappealing as you go through that
.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Shall I not come straight in with?
Well, I haven't done muchresearch, bob, but I know that
since Brexit, the facts aresimple, because my mate lives in
Italy, and that's because he'san Italian citizen, but his
neighbor, Herman, who married anEnglish woman, they're only
there every now and again andthey keep going home.
I think it's 90 days, isn't itCorrect?
I don't understand you're goingto achieve this.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Let's come on to that in a bit, because that element
of it is a stat.
But it's not the most importantthing, because I found out so
much about this lifestyle thatthat element of the uh
restrictions that we face asbrits is slowly diminishing
through various policies isthere also some technicality
(06:24):
about the word living as in?
Home ownership.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
We get into some detail, do we?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Oh yes, oh yes.
I mean okay there's a lot moreto it than that.
Before we get into the actualdigital nomad stats, let's just
think a little bit about thecurrent trends Because, as we
all know, the coronaviruspandemic forced many, many, many
people to start working fromhome and still many haven't
(06:51):
relocated back to the office.
Many are still working from homeor spending the majority of
their time working from home,and this skit we did at the
beginning just focuses on thisidea that I think directors,
many directors around the world,are going.
Hmm, I think we'd quite likeour people back in our offices
again now, and they're nowmaking those requests, but in
(07:13):
many cases those requests arebeing turned down because and
hard to enforce, well, almostimpossible to enforce.
And I think, once you've letthe genie out of the bottle, as
it were, that actually remoteworking is fine, then to
actually reimpose that focus onan individual and a company is
very, very hard to do.
Corporations, when they lease alarge building like a head
(07:37):
office in central London orcentral New York or Tokyo or
Hong Kong, wherever they havethese large buildings, what do
you think is the term, theaverage term, of a lease that
they will take on one of thosebuildings?
Speaker 1 (07:59):
10 years, 40.
What.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yep.
So they, in cases, are buying40-year leases for large,
beautiful buildings and thinking, well, hang on a sec, we need
to use this building.
We've got cleaners, maintenance, security people, it, all the
other bits and pieces that go tomake this thing usable.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Are you saying for a large organisation, the standard
terms for a large building thatmight have 500 people in or
whatever the standard termstoday, 2024,?
Are people want you to sign upfor 40 years?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
It can be that it can be up to 70, by the way, oh my
gosh.
So if you're a very largeorganisation that you assume is
going to be around for another100 years, then actually you're
thinking well, I'm buying cheapfor 50 years time.
I mean, that's another way ofthinking about it.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, but you're still paying a lease.
You're entering into a contract, but you're just paying yearly
amounts.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
There'll be break clauses and review points and
all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely right, and they may
even go up with inflation.
And they may even go up withinflation.
I mean, it may be somethingthat you literally can't get out
of.
So that's one of the keyreasons.
But not many are in that.
Only the biggest are in thatgame.
But that is a main reason whyyou think well, hang on a minute
, we've got to get people comingin to use this space because
(09:19):
we're paying so much for it.
However, I read a reallyinteresting article about a chap
who said look, theseorganizations are paying for
these concrete boxes where I'msat in a cubicle being instant
messaged by someone two cubiclesaway rather than come and speak
to me, and I'm creatingfriendships that don't really go
anywhere because they onlyexist within the office and
(09:41):
there's no real value.
And it's costing me money to goin every day and buy coffee and
lunch and all that sort ofthing, whereas actually I'm
realizing that I'm actuallytwice as effective working from
home.
I'm really good at doing that.
I can have as many meetings asI like.
It's saving the company moneyin terms of travel and all that
sort of thing.
So actually, that sort offacade, the facade of
(10:04):
presenteeism, which you and Ihave talked about a lot on this
podcast is currently blown andfor people who are good at what
they do, then they can workeffectively from anywhere.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I mean this could spread into a debate that sort
of goes off tangent.
But the effectiveness andproduction and output is one
thing and output is one thing.
It's also just a change to oursociety in some ways, in that we
would go to work, havework-based friendships, we might
have social time with work.
It was part of our week.
(10:34):
That's changed and I supposeoutput is one measure, but the
others are well-being.
Some people are not well-placedto work at home in isolation at
all.
And so I think it is a widedebate.
But going back to our originalsketch, I think am I right in
saying that for your researchinto this you're thinking of
(10:56):
self-sufficient people who candip in and out, but chaining
them to a desk is sort of almostan extinct idealism, I suppose
well, I mean, that's a very good, that's a great, that's a great
title for a book there jeremyextinct idealism, that's a
brilliant title for a book.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
it's not bad, is it?
And no, and I think if anysenior people are listening to
this podcast, thinking, hmm,maybe we should consider digital
nomads, I think they need toget rid of their idealism as
quickly as possible, because itis this idea of going into a big
building all the time isbecoming extinct slowly but
surely.
And even if there is a move towhere managers are thinking, oh
(11:37):
my God, I can't keep an eye onmy employees, I need them back
in, and they're forcing peopleto come back into the offices.
Now, I'm afraid, when we lookat some of the stats here, we
are moving further and furtheraway from that as a situation I
mean just based on bearings oflittle bits of reading and we'll
come into your stats.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
I know that one trend has shifted with large
organizations.
They used to often havefail-safe buildings.
They'd have a second buildingshould there be a fire, should
there be a problem.
That's gone, so they're nolonger keeping another space
that they dip in and out of.
So you've got some data thatshows a trend.
(12:17):
Have you that?
The hordes, Okay.
So how are we going to go intothis?
Am I going to play a guessinggame?
First of all.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Let me give you one big stat which sort of underpins
everything.
There's one article I readwhich says that, at this current
time, something like 20% ofcentral city offices are lying
empty.
Okay, anywhere on earth, around20%, if you think about that,
20% of London, 20% of New York,20% of Los Angeles, you know,
(12:46):
some of them will be less, someof them will be more, but
overall 20%, and there's nomovement to occupy those offices
currently.
Okay, there's no movement intothose.
Wow, now that creates thischange Because, of course, we
can work from home.
We have good internetconnections.
Now we have software, such asexactly like the software we're
(13:09):
using, which makes all thatpossible.
We then now move from theworking from home question mark
to well, if I can work from home, I can work anywhere.
And so this gives rise to yourfriends and mine, the digital
nomads, and so this gives riseto your friends and mine, the
digital nomads.
A digital nomad we describedthat to an 11-year-old a few
minutes ago.
Let's now look at some reallystartling statistics on this and
(13:37):
see where it takes us.
So, jeremy, how many digitalnomads do you think there are
worldwide?
How many digital nomads do youthink there are worldwide?
How many digital nomads do youthink there are worldwide?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And by that term they're not in their own
countries, where they're born,they've moved somewhere else.
These are people who, yeah,people who define themselves as
digital nomads.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Moving about, yeah, moving around.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Gosh.
Okay, Give me 10 seconds onthis.
I'm going to take the amount ofcountries percentage.
Me 10 seconds on this.
So I'm going to take the amountof countries percentage I think
there are 700 000.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Okay, so that's and that's you thinking about this
and then thinking a bit morethan you probably originally
first thought, and adding a bitokay we're currently between 35
and 40 million people no come on.
Yes, and I knew that wouldstartle you, because you think
this is a tiny, tiny number ofpeople doing this.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
The thing that's interesting is they're not like
our friend Simon, who's movedcountries.
They are moving.
They are following the droughtseason.
They're moving somewhere else.
You know, absolutely, gosh.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Give that number again, else you know Absolutely,
gosh, give that number againBetween 35 and 40 million.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
And that's validated.
I don't know how they've gotthat.
They must have.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I've got lots of articles on the BBC and on
various other forums and variousother sites that corroborate
that.
So we're looking at.
That's a trend that is not goinganywhere.
That's only ever going toincrease.
Okay, that's a trend that isnot going anywhere.
That's only ever going toincrease.
Okay, that's the first thing.
We've effectively got most ofthe working population of this
country.
In effect, we've got 68 millionor so in this in the uk, so
(15:13):
that the working population ofthis country would be like
everybody in the uk working fromgoing somewhere else.
That's, that's where it is.
That's a good way of thinkingabout it.
I've got here some also statson what percentage do you think
are millennials.
So which do you think?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Naturally, my default was older.
And then a part of me goes holdon.
They haven't got children yet,but they'd have to have done
well.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
That's a growing sector is digital nomads who
have children.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
It's small but it's growing.
My first thinking is I'm postmy children.
They've gone off.
They've either left home or I'mable to maintain a home in the
uk and they come and go orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Okay, so that's another thing to debunk yourself
off right.
Lots of these people do notmaintain a home in the place
they're coming.
Wow, because they've decided tobe a digital nomad.
Just go for it, so they'll getanother place when they come
back in the end okay, so.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
so I'm going to go older still.
So what was the question?
So what percentage aremillennials, are millennials?
So I'm going to go out of the100% of all millennials, I'm
going to say they make up only20%, 37% are millennials.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And what do you think percentage is between male and
female?
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Oh, that's good.
Okay, I'm going to say thatwomen are more.
I'm going to say women are lessmoving than men.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yes, you're right, it's 62% male, 38% women.
What percentage do you thinkare American?
And it is the highestpercentage of all digital nomads
.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
And that makes sense because my son, wherever he goes
, he says there's Americanseverywhere.
He goes to Rome in a quiet areaand there's six of them around
the corner.
Yeah, so North Americans,canadians, people from the US,
they are a staggering 40% of allof it 46,.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Very good, yeah, okay .
So nearly 50% are Americans.
Now, of course course, youimagine a digital nomad to be
sitting on a computer somewhereworking.
What percentage do you thinkwork full time as a digital
nomad in another country?
So what does that what you mean?
Work full time.
Ie, they're not part-time orcontracting for different
companies.
They are literally sittingworking.
(17:21):
Oh, I see full-time for anorganization.
Three quarters of them, 75.
Nearly, it's 62% full-time.
I mean, I'll give you a coupleof these.
There's no point guessing Ofthose who work full-time, if
they work 40 hours a week, 70%will do that work.
So, the fact they're sitting inPortugal doesn't mean they're
working any less than they woulddo.
So the percentage of digitalnomads who are satisfied with
(17:46):
their income is 82 percent yeah,I think that follows because
yeah, you've got to have enoughincome to be able to support the
lifestyle, so you wouldn't dothis unless you did have that so
I don't know if you've got theresearch on this.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
I wonder how many of them leave a place where the
place they move to the cost ofliving is less than where they
came from.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
The vast majority, and we will come on to that in a
moment because I've got somestats on that.
But there's a few more thingshere.
What year do you think the termdigital nomad was coined?
Speaker 1 (18:20):
That will be the mid-90s, when internet started
to get better, so it wasactually 1997.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Two chaps, sugio Makimoto and David Manners,
wrote a book called the DigitalNomad, predicting exactly what
has happened, and that's beendoing the rounds ever since Now.
Here's a really interestingquestion that's been doing the
rounds ever since now.
Here's a really interestingquestion do all digital nomads
use digital nomad visas?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
gosh, the answer is going to be a very solid no and
there'll be loopholes.
There'll be relationshiploopholes parental passport
changes.
I remember now my mother'sirish.
There'll be all sorts going onthere, won't there?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
so interestingly, what I found out is that, whilst
lots of over 50 countries nowoffer you a digital nomad visa,
the vast I would say nearly ahalf of all digital nomads are
not staying long enough in eachcountry in order to need one,
because they literally wanted togo around to different places.
Ah, I was taking the questionas you mean like moving from
(19:41):
digital nomad to settling inanother.
Portugal and Spain and Italyand many other countries want to
attract people to live therefor longer, so they're offering
incentives for you to get one ofthose visas.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So what you're saying is some of them.
If they were coming fromBritain and they had to play the
visa rules they would bereturning.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yes, well, not necessarily returning to britain
, of course they.
They might do six weeks inspain.
They might then fly to thailandfor two months I see they might
fly to australia for threemonths because there are
different rules in differentcountries but you make the clear
point.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
The technicality I understand is is it's europe?
You can't remain in europe formore than 90 days.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
True, that's, that's true, that's true, unless you
have a digital nomad easilywhich will allow you to live, in
some cases for up to three orfive years, in a European
country which actually getsaround that current restriction.
So that's why I think it'sbecoming Can you then apply for
another one?
Haven't read into that.
I'm assuming you can, but Ithink there will be limits to
how long you can do it.
(20:45):
For it's interesting, ingermany they have a different
system, called a freelancer visa, which there are very strict
rules hi, I'm a freelancer, areyou?
I'm just freelancing my wayaround berlin and and you, once
you've gone through the strictrules to get one of those.
You then have a year and thenyou can extend it for up to
three years.
(21:05):
But I think that's fairlystrict and they don't expect you
to hang around long after that.
And then the last stat I've gotjust on the top 10 was that we
talked about those people thatare full-time workers 66% have
traditional jobs, two thirds soI work for this company, I'm on
a salary and that's it.
And then a third arecontractors, self-employed or
(21:29):
you know their own business.
So that's the stat.
Now, I knew that some of thosestats would blow your mind,
because I knew that you thoughtthis was a very, very niche
thing.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, rather than mainstream.
I did feel that it wasn't fullyaccessible to younger
millennials, but millennials aregetting older and it's
interesting Did you say it was,what percentage of millennials?
The vast majority wouldn't 37%.
Yeah, so nearly sort of 60% areolder.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And those older people?
No, they're not, oh, they'renot that much.
Older Generation Z 21%.
Right, wow, baby boomers,they're not oh they're not that
much older Generation Z 21%.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Right, wow Baby boomers 15%.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, so the biggest sector is 45, 45 year olds, or
something, is it?
Well, no, your typical digitalnomad is a white male from
America who's 35.
Right, he is abroad for aminimum of seven months a year.
He spends a lot of his time ina place called Port Mau in
Portugal, which apparently isvery popular.
He is either a developer ofsome kind or the founder of a
(22:33):
startup of some kind.
That's very, very common, andthe average salary is $122,000,
about £90,000.
That's a typical digital nomad.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
So I tell you, I was in oxford yesterday with tash
and we walked past a brand newpastel donata shop.
Okay, well, you say we wentgosh.
Do you remember we had thosewhen we were in lisbon and we
would have two each and coffeeand tea and we'd give the guy
five euros, 20 yeah how much isa single pastel donato, which is
(23:04):
tiny they're the smallest onesI've ever seen in this shop in
oxford well, if it's anythinglike the ones in lewis, it's
going to be three or four quidapart.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
It's two pounds 85 god they're having a laugh,
aren't they?
Speaker 1 (23:14):
and and we just looked at them, went wow, so
that's.
Another point is if the cost ofliving is less always my
digital nomad.
I'm building in rental income.
I mean not rental income.
I'm paying rent because I'mprobably not allowed to buy.
You can't buy under the visa,can you?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
um, I don't think you can buy, although I've seen
nothing to say that you can't dothat well, if you did, you've
got to sell it and go withinfive, haven't you?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
no, no no you.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
You could buy the property and keep it, but you
couldn't necessarily live therewell, that's the point.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Definitely buy's the point.
You could definitely buy it.
There's not the added advantageof, hey, I've now bought it.
No, when my visa's up, I'm out,yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
But then actually if you look at some of these places
, some of the property is so low.
If you're that much of a kindof switched on digital nomad,
you could buy the place, have ayear there hanging on, so it's.
It's actually quite a sort ofuh thing for somebody who's a
bit entrepreneurial.
(24:07):
You.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
You could actually do quite well in that, in that
world.
It's funny you say that.
I was talking about the oldadage of taking a horse across
the state or or a boat that youtake across somewhere.
There's various tales that sayyou should never lease.
You should buy your boat to doyour journey and sell the boat
to someone else at the end.
That's more economic thanleasing.
So maybe there is something.
I'm going to be in Portugal forfive years or base myself there
(24:28):
.
I will buy a little thing and Imight just sell it before I get
out.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Thank you for joining us on the Reality of Business.
At Reality Training, wespecialize in creating sales and
management programs that drivereal results.
For over 20 years, we've helpedmajor brands sell more, retain
customers and lead their teamseffectively.
Curious about how we can helpyou, visit realitytrainingcom
today.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
So now let's move into some of the actual
practicalities of this yeah, I'dlike.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I mean, that's my question, I'm listening to this,
I'm going here, I am.
I mean, we've got listenersfrom different countries.
But maybe, if you just say,ostensibly, how does somebody do
this?
Someone's sitting listening tothis and it's raining and they
want some warmer climes.
They might be in a position,whether they're millennial or
they're older grown-up children.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I mean you said people taking small children is
on the increase, but it'sprobably the smallest sector, I
would have thought still well,so you'll be won't be surprised
to hear, with 40 million peopledoing this worldwide.
Yeah, yeah, there are nowcompanies set up to help people
do this yeah so you can actuallygo and speak to a company.
They'll say where do you wantto go?
I want to go to italy.
Okay, fine, whereabouts initaly?
(25:47):
Well, I'm not sure really well,um, tell me your situation.
Married with two small children, right?
well, the best place forkindergarten situation, yeah,
and the three situations ismilan or turin or wherever, and
this is where you're going to goand this is how you're going to
set it up, and we'll do it allfor you.
So that exists already.
Not just that, though.
There's a whole secondaryindustry springing up of
(26:11):
co-working spaces.
Yeah, yeah, and this exists allover the place.
I mean, I'm in lewis.
There's one up the road hereand it says outside, uh, it's
called networks, and so.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So if I don't go to an agency, what do I do?
I go online and look at thecountry and I.
Google nomadic visa in Italy,and there's application forms.
Absolutely, do I needpermission from my government in
the UK.
No, you just fill it in.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Right, yeah, the appeal to the foreign country is
that you are earning money froman outside company.
Yeah, okay, so that's important.
You're choosing to live andwork in their country and spend
your salary in that country,which they very much would like
you to do, and so as long as youcan prove that you're not going
to be a drain on the resourcesof that place that you decided
(26:58):
to go, then they're perfectlyhappy for you to live there for
a limited amount of time.
That's the deal.
Now, not only is that the dealand I haven't got time to go
through all the differentscenarios that exist, because
they're changing all the timebut each country that offers a
digital nomad visa will havevarious criteria.
You have to prove you earn acertain amount of money.
(27:19):
If you're a business owner, youhave to show accounts and
you're not just trying tosubvert the visa rules by doing
this.
So you have to prove that youcan sustain yourself.
But the fact is, we know thatthe average digital nomads is in
about 90,000 pounds a year, andyou could have a nice lifestyle
(27:41):
in England or the United Statesor wherever on that sort of
money.
But actually, if you go tosomewhere like Spain or Italy or
Greece or Thailand or aCaribbean island or Sri Lanka or
Hawaii or you know.
There's so many places you cando this.
You can actually have afantastic lifestyle on that sort
(28:01):
of money in those locations, beone of the richest people in
that area, and I've got a greatexample of this.
There's an area in Spain, tothe east of Portugal, and it's
one of the poorest areas inSpain actually, but lovely part
of the world.
The summers will be long andhot and they will give you, as a
(28:21):
digital nomad, 15,000 euros asa sweetener for you to move to
that area for two years.
Two years, that's how much theywant you to do it, they really
want you there.
They do.
There are certain places inItaly where they'll give you
30,000 euros to do it, becausethey want you to move into that
area and spend your money, andthat's the appeal, I think, for
(28:45):
those places.
Now, that's if you want to staysomewhere for a couple of years
.
As I say, I think there arelots of digital nomads who just
make a plan for a couple ofyears.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah right.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I'm going to move around.
I can have six weeks here,three months here, move around
to somewhere I like, and I get abudget for all of that, all of
the accommodation costs, and Ican do that because I can
literally work anywhere.
Now there is some disadvantages.
If you're working for a UnitedStates organization and you're
somewhere which is seven oreight hours ahead or seven or
(29:15):
eight hours behind where yourmain office is, you are going to
need to be doing late nights orearly morning meetings and
you're just going to have toaccept that.
That that's part of the dealand I think that's something
that people have to come toterms with.
But I think, other than that,it's for your company to think
okay, this person's workingthere, I trust them to do their
work and do what they have to do, and I need to think about that
(29:39):
when trying to organize thingswith them.
And once you have got your headaround that to organize things
with them and once you have gotyour head around that, I think
it's remarkably easy.
The appeal is amazing the ideaof being somewhere warm where
you do your day's work and inthe evening you go out and it's
23 degrees and there's a bar ona beach.
I can't see that there's muchwrong with that, really, as an
appealing location, and you'regoing to be paying two to three
(30:03):
euros for a beer, as opposed tosix or seven pounds in the UK.
So there is that thing about itit is going to cost you less to
live in these locations, whichis appealing.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
This sort of digital bit could be a topical word.
You know.
I'm thinking of a joke by Macin the Telegraph or something,
or a well-known cartoonist of acouple of people looking at a
cross, at an Englishman in acafe, and someone says is he a
digital nomad?
He hasn't had his laptop sincehe's arrived.
He's a notebook nomad, you knowit's.
(30:34):
I'm just sort of that kind ofimage.
You don't have to be using thelaptop, no, but everybody does,
absolutely because they're.
Yeah, that's part of the toolfor communication and software
it is and the other thing I goto is, let's just say, a family
wanted to go to portugal for twoyears, put their kids in the
schools there and they were ableto get a job there.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Oh, that's different.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I know, I'm just spelling out the difference.
They're then having thePortuguese state employ them,
engage them healthcare,da-da-da-da-da.
So, there's the idea that's aslightly more higher cost to the
nation.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Your singular thing that you're pointing out is that
if the income comes fromanother country into the bank
account, into Portugal, that'sexternal funds with no drawing
of the existing company.
Exactly, that's interesting,but if that person was highly
productive and worked for thecompany and was great to have in
the country, that takes us backto everyone being able to do
(31:34):
this.
But we're saying this is adistinction.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It's currently not this is a way of getting into
europe and beyond it is that,but I also think it's more than
that.
I think it is a huge lifestylechoice that many people have got
the right mindset to do becausethey're so used to working
remotely now that it doesn'tmatter where.
Extension for an adventurousmind.
(31:56):
You just think well, I couldliterally do this anywhere.
I'm going to do that.
Now there is a backlash, as youwon't be surprised to hear.
So certain locations likeBarcelona and various others are
getting a bit sick of digitalnomads because their arrival in
these places is driving up theprices for locals.
So that is a downside where, oh, lots of people with high
(32:18):
incomes coming in who can affordto pay three or four or five
euros for a beer right, so thelocal bar whacks the prices up
absolutely, and so that's one ofthe downsides here.
However, I would say that what'shappening is I did a search and
I thought I'd give you a listof all the countries where you
can do this.
There is too many.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
There are too many.
All over the world.
There's some distinctions, butyou're saying so.
Can you do this in France?
Oh, yes, so France.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Most of the European countries you can, except
Germany, as I said.
What about the Nordics and theScandis?
I'm sure you can, but I haven'tlooked into the details there.
There are some where you can'tbecause various reasons.
But what's happening, I think,is that lots of places are going
.
Hang on a minute.
Hang on a minute.
So there's a place calledanguilla, which is a caribbean
(33:09):
island.
I think.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, um, yeah, the cost of that digital visa is
quite a few thousand dollars soit's a bit ah, you pay for the
visa, so you pay for the visa,so what does that cost you?
To buy the visa in spain orwhatever?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
well, sometimes it's, you know, hundreds, 200 euros.
I mean, you know it depends onwhat it is and where it is, but
they're changing all the timethose fees because it's becoming
more popular.
There's a few important thingsto just to ponder on this.
There are two main markets nowfor digital nomads.
The first is what we discussed,so the individual or the couple
and, in tiny percentage cases,a family, going to a country,
(33:46):
working for a few months or ayear and moving on.
So that's the first type, ofwhich there are many, many
people doing.
But going back to what wediscussed at the beginning, if
you are no longer paying for amassive office or a much smaller
, smaller head office and youdon't need all that office space
, that gives you some funds.
And so the secondary market fordigital nomads is, if I have 40
(34:10):
people in my team workingacross the globe in various
locations, I'm going to want tobring them together a few times
a year.
So that is what's called theoff-site marketplace, and what
that means is that you'll say,right, we're going to choose the
Digital Nomad location inPortugal.
Let's say we're going to bookthat location.
(34:31):
That location is a beautifulproperty that has amazing
facilities.
They have yoga classes andexercise classes in the evening.
They have beautiful rooms, aswimming pool on the roof, a
lovely bar in the evening, andwe're all going to book that and
spend two or three weeksworking together on our projects
(34:53):
, spending time together.
The company pays for theaccommodation and the flights.
Then we go back to our hybrid,varied, nomadic locations and
work and then we'll come backtogether in a few months time
somewhere else.
Now that's a huge marketplacebecause people think, yeah, I'd
like to do that and actually thecompany is going to pay.
So that's really good.
(35:14):
And I found a great example abeautiful place in Portugal, in
Porto.
Funnily enough, they have arooftop pool, they have
different events and this isthis whole thing I was talking
about, the kind of co-workingscenario.
So if you've got a site or anumber of sites around the city
that you own and you've gotindividuals running their own
business, people working forcompanies or companies
(35:37):
themselves and teams coming in,you're mixing with varied types
of of worker and so they willrun events and food-based
sessions and training sessionsand networking sessions and go
off on a trip and see butthey're expecting you to be
there for a week or something,or two weeks or whatever it
(35:58):
might be.
The average is about two weeks.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah, because those are people who are then coming
back to their countries tocontinue whatever it is they
have there.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Or to go to wherever they're actually working from.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Yeah, because they've been pulled in.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
And this place is beautiful with lovely rooms.
The average cost for a room pernight en suite room is between
$85 and $115 a night for a verynice room in this lovely
location with the pool and allthe other bits and pieces.
Now, that is a huge marketplace.
So I think there's somethingvery appealing also about saying
(36:33):
well, no, we're not paying forour offices anymore, so why
don't we go and have a strategysession in Italy for a few weeks
?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
So here's a question Is anybody want to come and be a
digital nomad in the UK?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Well, isn't that interesting.
There's no statistic on that.
Do we offer it to people?
I haven't seen it.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
I don't think that we do so.
You've looked from here goingout.
I understand that.
I'm wondering if somebody's inNew York and saying I want to go
and work in London, England,for a bit.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Well, I mean, the most popular country on earth is
the USA to do it in, so to goand do it there.
But then you've also got Spainas the second.
I think Spain has a lot goingfor it because you've got
amazing cities like Madrid,barcelona, seville, all those
places down in the sun, andyou've got that good climate and
Burgos.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
more people could discover your Burgos.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Well, they could, but I think it's very rainy in
winter.
It's a bit like Ireland andBurgos, so I think you'd
probably go there for the springperiod, it'd be lovely you
might, you might.
That's quite appealing.
So I think that's theinteresting stat, that it's not
just moving around it.
(37:39):
It's not just moving around.
It's also this idea that as acompany, we could do what we're
doing anywhere if people canhave, if people can work
anywhere, then we can workanywhere.
Why do we have to have ameeting in london or new york,
wherever our offices are?
Why don't we go abroadsomewhere?
Speaker 1 (37:49):
I think what's very interesting is a lot of people's
work, sort of the main bit ofthe work isn't necessarily
physical, is it?
No?
That, no, that's what'sinteresting.
But it is also quite selective,because a key worker can't do
this.
I'm a nurse, I'm going to goand be a nurse, no, no, because
you work at this hospital.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
You know, in our sketch the 11-year-old talking
to you is his uncle.
His father went to a factoryand helped make hammers.
So he can't do it.
It's only open to a sort ofselect type job description.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
And I know you said marketing company, but one does
seem to think of the creativeindustries software developers,
coders yeah, yes, absolutely,you know, because, if I don't,
I've got some stats on that,because I can see that that's a
question, because you think,well, surely only certain types
of business can do this.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Well, I think it's job function.
It's more the function of anybusiness can do it because
there'll be people within it,but some might have an expertise
in a particular role thatrequires their physical presence
in a different environment.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Well, let's be clear.
So 79% of digital nomads relyon technology yeah, for their
work.
So that's a fact.
You've got to rely ontechnology in order for it to
work, anyway.
I think that's that's the thing.
However, if you think about thestat, in 1997, the idea of
digital nomads was just an idea.
Nobody was doing it.
Now we've got nearly 40 millionpeople doing it.
(39:14):
Yes, it's only ever going togrow, and so what's going to
happen is the idea is that whatyou can do remotely will grow
and grow as well.
So the most common jobs arethings like developers of
various types, systemsadministrators, web developers
that's a massive chunk softwaredevelopers, people who work in
sass, and virtual reality andall that sort of thing, but then
(39:38):
you also get areas like humanresources.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yeah, you know why do you need to do that from
anywhere?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Why do you need to be in an office?
Psychologists of course you cando that face to face anywhere.
Journalists yeah, now it's gothere.
Medical professionals it's up33%.
A few years ago, moving abroadto do, yeah, that work, you
could work abroad support jobs.
Creatives up 21 percent, yeah.
Bloggers, coaches just a bitlike psychologists.
(40:05):
There you go yeah, so, yeah, sothere's definite growth in in
those areas, but again, it'staking time for those to catch
up with the big it jobs that arecurrently taking place.
So there are some places thatthey said you wouldn't want to
go.
So they said you wouldn't wantnecessarily to go to Japan,
because I think the cost ofliving there is even more
astronomical than London andplaces like Kuwait where it must
(40:30):
be unbearably hot, and thingslike that.
Now, the top five cities thatmale digital nomads like the
most are number five Cape Town,south Africa.
Really.
Number four Seoul, south Korea.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Really.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Number three Madrid in Spain.
Number two Porto in Portugal.
That's very popular for digitalnomads, and the number one in
2024 is Budapest in Hungary.
Yeah, great place, so that mustbe very low cost to live there.
I would imagine so veryappealing.
The top five cities thatnomadic women like the most
(41:08):
Vienna, berlin, munich, chiangMai.
In Thailand and you won'tbelieve this Medellin in
Colombia, really yes, what dothey like about Medellin?
I couldn't possibly say.
Maybe they've got a secondaryjob as a drugs mule.
I mean, who knows?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
To our Colombian listeners not everyone from
Colombia.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
No, no, but these are nomads going there.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
It's funny.
I started doing I mean, I doyoga and I've tried a bit of
Pilates.
And the woman who I foundonline says I looked at her
website, I'm originally, she'sfrom Europe.
Now she says but now I'm I baseand I run my work from Thailand
, so she is teaching and filmingand recording and uploading
from Thailand.
She can live anywhere to teachPilates.
You know, yeah, that'sfascinating, isn't it?
(41:56):
So what about relating this toyou?
If?
Do you have a nomadic visionfor you?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
oh, I really do.
I mean, I really do.
I think this is very appealingfor somebody like me who I've
reached a certain age.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
My boys have reached the point where they are, you
know, becoming more independent,and so the necessity for me to
be in the uk is lower the otherfact is that you and I both were
crestfallen with the Brexitresult, of course, but then it's
a way of you accessing Europe,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Oh, very, very much so, and I think that's a great
point.
However, there are pros andcons, so the pros are fairly
obvious.
So the ability to travel whenand where you want, you have a
great work-life balance, youexperience new cultures and you
meet new people.
I mean, that is the massiveappeal of being a digital nomad,
and 78% feel optimistic aboutthe future of their careers by
(42:48):
taking this as their job.
So that's, I think there's noquestion that for the individual
, it's incredibly positive.
There are some disadvantages andchallenges.
The challenges are certaincountries.
You might feel less personallysafe.
You're going to places whichare less well-developed.
Being away from family andfriends that would be your
biggest thing.
You would struggle with thathugely.
(43:08):
I think Working across timezones is a challenge.
We've talked about that.
You're going to have to be upat certain times.
Loneliness 26% report a levelof loneliness because you might
be in a co-working place full ofpeople who are not like you at
all and that might be slightlydifficult.
Travel logistics can be a pain,and also managing work and
travel together could bedifficult too.
(43:29):
So those are some of the theclear challenges.
However, the future isabsolutely immense.
The predictions on growth arejust exponential.
And so if you think we'reapproaching 40 million now, in
2024, in another six years' timeit's going to be we're getting
up towards 100 million, andthat's massive.
And that's 100 million peopleon good money traveling the
(43:53):
world to work rather thanstaying in a single place, and
that's a huge shift.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I'm wondering if at one point they will.
Then well, with some way off atipping point, whether they say
we don't want this money goingout the country.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
It's interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Imagine you're a small country and you suddenly
suffer a brain drain.
But it isn't a real brain drainbecause the company's head
office is technically based inthat country where you live.
But you're now working inanother country and the salary
is going out.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Well, no, there is a gray area around where you pay
your tax.
So if you're still being paidyour salary in the UK, if you
pay tax at source, thatcontinues and you're just
spending it elsewhere.
So the country doesn't get thatbit of the money.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah yeah, there we are, but still if you're
spending all your earnings inanother country and a lot of
people were doing it from thatcountry- yeah then the gdp of
the nation would go down becausethe and the amount of money
being spent.
You know, that's interesting,really intriguing some of those.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
It is I did some research into rents in certain
countries and you know the rentsin the UK are off the charts at
the moment, very, very high.
You go to somewhere like Spainresidential not necessarily with
a sea view and a appealingholiday apartment block, but a
residential apartment in Spain,Italy, Greece, Turkey, somewhere
(45:15):
that's going to be warmer heredefinitely than the UK for a few
months.
You're looking at a few hundredeuros per month, I believe it,
sometimes as low as 350, 300euros a month, or you could
probably get a one bed probablya one bed would be even less,
almost certainly.
And then it becomes very, veryaffordable because again, your
(45:35):
cost of living plummets and youalso get the benefit of the
climate.
So I think, looking at this, itis right now very appealing.
I think there will be not onlychallenges in terms of the
cultural impact on locals, butalso certain countries will
think well, hang on a minute, weneed to think about this
because we're now lessattractive for investment.
(45:58):
It's a great indicator, isn'tit?
How many digital home ads doyou have?
Hardly any.
Well, maybe we should go wherethey're going.
So that's interesting.
I think it also opens up thisidea of using the fact that
there are low-cost flights,low-rent apartments All these
things become available.
(46:18):
Why don't companies takeadvantage of these things in
order to have a more interestingworking life, which I think is
appealing?
And in fact, I remember beingoffered an off-site as a target.
If we beat a target for anAmerican company I was working
for, we would then get taken tobarcelona for an offsite.
We had to hit the target to doit.
(46:39):
Yeah, now they would do it as amatter of course every three
months.
I would imagine they just gowell, let's all go.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Let's all just don't go and do it because the cost is
so much lower yeah, now it'sinteresting I can see other side
businesses, as you say, growingup, you know you've got airbnb,
you could have nomad airbnb andjust you know a house that as
you walk in it's set up for itwith a standing desk and a
brilliant this, and that youcould kind of create the space,
couldn't you?
Speaker 2 (47:03):
oh, it would be fantastic.
But also I think if you aresingle, yeah, then it is
appealing because you are goingto meet lots of new people, and
if you can work effectively fromanywhere, then actually why
wouldn't you?
Why would you sit somewherewhere the weather's perpetually
miserable, freezing?
Speaker 1 (47:21):
cold.
I mean you've always struggledwith our weather.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
I have I have, if you think about it, december,
january, february, to do that inthe sun somewhere.
I can't see any issue with that.
I think it would be delightfulto be 15 degrees warmer on
average, to be 15 degrees warmeron average.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
I think that would be pretty good.
Come and be a digital nomad inthe UK and enjoy warm fires in
the pub and mulled wine.
I give it to me as a marketingchallenge.
I'll sell it back the other way.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
I think that's hilarious.
I think that would be a really,really good deal A free welly
boot loan in every house.
We've got your welly bootslined up for you.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
We'll have a wax jacket sorted.
There'll be the waterproofs.
We've got it fully worked outfor you People who live in such
hot countries, you're desperateto come and have cooler weather.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Then the Spanish guys would do another ad showing
some people running through therain in London going where could
we have gone for this?
Let's go to Spain.
I think it just has thatThey've always got the sun
Anyway.
I think it just has thatThey've always got the sum
Anyway.
That's an interesting topic.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
It's good fun.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I think it's one we'll be returning to in due
course.
Nice stuff, good stuff.
If you like our podcast, pleaseshare it with your friends and
colleagues.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
And we look forward to entertaining you with another
one very soon indeed, jeremy,lovely to see you.
Yeah, you too.
Lovely stuff, bobby Cheers.
Okay, all the best, thank you.
Luke, can you hear me okay?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Yes, hello, sebastian .
I must say it's very nice tohear from the CEO once in a
while.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Well, yes, sorry if it has been a while.
Things have been quite busy andwell, your marketing is
marvellous, the stuff you'reproducing, the team, all working
well.
I wanted to talk to youpersonally.
I only need a few minutes, justa bit of a change.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
We've got a couple of weeks left of the month, and
then what we're suggesting isfrom the first of next month.
Um, especially you as adirector.
Uh, all of us.
We're going to be in four daysa week.
Now I don't mind if you havethe friday at home or the monday
, but I'm sure that's good withyou.
Four days a week, okay?
Oh, I see you?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
you mean in the, in the office in london yes, back
in.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yes, I know it's been a while.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I know it's been well , it's funny, you should say
that, um, I'm not sure that'sgoing to work because, um, as of
next week, um, I'm booked towork, well, for the next three
months, anyway, in portugal.
What so?
Yeah, they've given me one oftheir digital nomad visas,
because I've been working soeffectively, uh, from home, that
(01:05):
I just thought, well, I may aswell go and spend a few months
in the sun working there.
And, yeah, I've got a littleplace sorted and I'm going out
there.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
How is this going to work?
Because you know the directivewe're doing is we've got to be
in four days a week.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, I don't know where that's come from and,
again, this is the first I'veheard of it.
But you've you know.
As you know, I do good work.
I can coordinate the marketingand have the meetings from just
about anywhere.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Let me stop you there .
I'm going to have to talk toMaureen in HR.
I'm going to have to get moregend up.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Well, have a chat with Maureen, and I mean you
might be aware that there's anumber of us digital nomads on
the books already, so theremight be something to consider I
will come back to you luke.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Um, okay, I'll come back to you luke, okay.
(02:23):
Hi Bobby, how are you doing?
Hello?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
there, Jeremy, I'm very well indeed.
How are you sir?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, fine, I'm intrigued at this.
As you can imagine, I'm playinga little sketch to begin and
I'm thinking, gosh, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
It is and, for those who may not yet be up on what
we're actually talking about,it's really straightforward.
Talking about it's reallystraightforward.
We're going to be talking abouthybrid working and the current
trends when it comes to how wework as organizations.
We're then going to move intothe very interesting world of
digital nomads and I've got alittle quiz for you, jeremy, on
(02:59):
the statistics of digital nomadsacross the world and then we're
going to think about how thatactually works in practice, and
I've done a lot of research intothis and it's absolutely
amazing what's currently takingplace, and I think you're going
to find it really interesting.
So, yes, that's what we're onabout.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So let's go back to my little favorite thing to
often kick things off.
I'm 11 years old, uncle Bobby,what's this thing that you were
talking to Aunty Susie about?
About digital nomads, what'sall that?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Well, little Jeremy, a digital nomad is very simply
somebody who can do all of theirwork from just about any
location on earth, as long asthey have a really good Wi-Fi
connection.
So, as an 11 year old, you knowthat that's the first thing you
ask.
Never you enter any building itis what's the.
(03:52):
Wi-fi code well.
I could be anywhere on earthwith a good Wi-Fi code and I
could do my job eight hours aday, and that means that I can
travel around, living indifferent places, experiencing
different cultures and workingeffectively.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Is that because mum says you come up with ideas but
other people do all the work?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Maybe that may be the case, and I may as well have
them in a sunny climate asopposed to in the horrendous,
because you always on just yourlaptop.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I don't see you sort of making things or doing things
like like my dad you know hegoes into a building and he
makes all this stuff was.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
He's a tool maker, isn't he?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:35):
well, quite senior in a good company that make really
good hammers, but yeah, yeah,well, that's great, and you know
, that's a really importantthing.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
my company is a digital marketing company, and
that's what we do.
We get most of our inquiriesthrough the internet, and so
that means we can work anywherein order to make that shop
window look fantastic.
The other side of that is let'sthink about the weather.
So we're recording this today,and it has just stopped raining
(05:04):
here.
It's been raining all morning,solidly, and we've had a pretty
wet year.
Actually, over through the year, the summer was a bit of a
washout and it hasn't beenterrific.
When I was researching this, Ijust thought, okay, I've got all
(05:25):
the stats here, which we'llcome on to in a bit.
How could I spend the majorityof the winter living somewhere a
bit warmer, a bit sunnier, abit cheaper, actually, in most
cases.
What would that mean?
And it is surprisinglyappealing as you go through that
.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Shall I not come straight in with?
Well, I haven't done muchresearch, bob, but I know that
since Brexit, the facts aresimple, because my mate lives in
Italy, and that's because he'san Italian citizen, but his
neighbor, Herman, who married anEnglish woman, they're only
there every now and again andthey keep going home.
I think it's 90 days, isn't itCorrect?
I don't understand you're goingto achieve this.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Let's come on to that in a bit, because that element
of it is a stat.
But it's not the most importantthing, because I found out so
much about this lifestyle thatthat element of the uh
restrictions that we face asbrits is slowly diminishing
through various policies isthere also some technicality
(06:24):
about the word living as in?
Home ownership.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
We get into some detail, do we?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Oh yes, oh yes.
I mean okay there's a lot moreto it than that.
Before we get into the actualdigital nomad stats, let's just
think a little bit about thecurrent trends Because, as we
all know, the coronaviruspandemic forced many, many, many
people to start working fromhome and still many haven't
(06:51):
relocated back to the office.
Many are still working from homeor spending the majority of
their time working from home,and this skit we did at the
beginning just focuses on thisidea that I think directors,
many directors around the world,are going.
Hmm, I think we'd quite likeour people back in our offices
again now, and they're nowmaking those requests, but in
(07:13):
many cases those requests arebeing turned down because and
hard to enforce, well, almostimpossible to enforce.
And I think, once you've letthe genie out of the bottle, as
it were, that actually remoteworking is fine, then to
actually reimpose that focus onan individual and a company is
very, very hard to do.
Corporations, when they lease alarge building like a head
(07:37):
office in central London orcentral New York or Tokyo or
Hong Kong, wherever they havethese large buildings, what do
you think is the term, theaverage term, of a lease that
they will take on one of thosebuildings?
Speaker 1 (07:59):
10 years, 40.
What.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Yep.
So they, in cases, are buying40-year leases for large,
beautiful buildings and thinking, well, hang on a sec, we need
to use this building.
We've got cleaners, maintenance, security people, it, all the
other bits and pieces that go tomake this thing usable.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Are you saying for a large organisation, the standard
terms for a large building thatmight have 500 people in or
whatever the standard termstoday, 2024,?
Are people want you to sign upfor 40 years?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
It can be that it can be up to 70, by the way, oh my
gosh.
So if you're a very largeorganisation that you assume is
going to be around for another100 years, then actually you're
thinking well, I'm buying cheapfor 50 years time.
I mean, that's another way ofthinking about it.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, but you're still paying a lease.
You're entering into a contract, but you're just paying yearly
amounts.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
There'll be break clauses and review points and
all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely right, and they may
even go up with inflation.
And they may even go up withinflation.
I mean, it may be somethingthat you literally can't get out
of.
So that's one of the keyreasons.
But not many are in that.
Only the biggest are in thatgame.
But that is a main reason whyyou think well, hang on a minute
, we've got to get people comingin to use this space because
(09:19):
we're paying so much for it.
However, I read a reallyinteresting article about a chap
who said look, theseorganizations are paying for
these concrete boxes where I'msat in a cubicle being instant
messaged by someone two cubiclesaway rather than come and speak
to me, and I'm creatingfriendships that don't really go
anywhere because they onlyexist within the office and
(09:41):
there's no real value.
And it's costing me money to goin every day and buy coffee and
lunch and all that sort ofthing, whereas actually I'm
realizing that I'm actuallytwice as effective working from
home.
I'm really good at doing that.
I can have as many meetings asI like.
It's saving the company moneyin terms of travel and all that
sort of thing.
So actually, that sort offacade, the facade of
(10:04):
presenteeism, which you and Ihave talked about a lot on this
podcast is currently blown andfor people who are good at what
they do, then they can workeffectively from anywhere.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I mean this could spread into a debate that sort
of goes off tangent.
But the effectiveness andproduction and output is one
thing and output is one thing.
It's also just a change to oursociety in some ways, in that we
would go to work, havework-based friendships, we might
have social time with work.
It was part of our week.
(10:34):
That's changed and I supposeoutput is one measure, but the
others are well-being.
Some people are not well-placedto work at home in isolation at
all.
And so I think it is a widedebate.
But going back to our originalsketch, I think am I right in
saying that for your researchinto this you're thinking of
(10:56):
self-sufficient people who candip in and out, but chaining
them to a desk is sort of almostan extinct idealism, I suppose
well, I mean, that's a very good, that's a great, that's a great
title for a book there jeremyextinct idealism, that's a
brilliant title for a book.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
it's not bad, is it?
And no, and I think if anysenior people are listening to
this podcast, thinking, hmm,maybe we should consider digital
nomads, I think they need toget rid of their idealism as
quickly as possible, because itis this idea of going into a big
building all the time isbecoming extinct slowly but
surely.
And even if there is a move towhere managers are thinking, oh
(11:37):
my God, I can't keep an eye onmy employees, I need them back
in, and they're forcing peopleto come back into the offices.
Now, I'm afraid, when we lookat some of the stats here, we
are moving further and furtheraway from that as a situation I
mean just based on bearings oflittle bits of reading and we'll
come into your stats.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
I know that one trend has shifted with large
organizations.
They used to often havefail-safe buildings.
They'd have a second buildingshould there be a fire, should
there be a problem.
That's gone, so they're nolonger keeping another space
that they dip in and out of.
So you've got some data thatshows a trend.
(12:17):
Have you that?
The hordes, Okay.
So how are we going to go intothis?
Am I going to play a guessinggame?
First of all.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Let me give you one big stat which sort of underpins
everything.
There's one article I readwhich says that, at this current
time, something like 20% ofcentral city offices are lying
empty.
Okay, anywhere on earth, around20%, if you think about that,
20% of London, 20% of New York,20% of Los Angeles, you know,
(12:46):
some of them will be less, someof them will be more, but
overall 20%, and there's nomovement to occupy those offices
currently.
Okay, there's no movement intothose.
Wow, now that creates thischange Because, of course, we
can work from home.
We have good internetconnections.
Now we have software, such asexactly like the software we're
(13:09):
using, which makes all thatpossible.
We then now move from theworking from home question mark
to well, if I can work from home, I can work anywhere.
And so this gives rise to yourfriends and mine, the digital
nomads, and so this gives riseto your friends and mine, the
digital nomads.
A digital nomad we describedthat to an 11-year-old a few
minutes ago.
Let's now look at some reallystartling statistics on this and
(13:37):
see where it takes us.
So, jeremy, how many digitalnomads do you think there are
worldwide?
How many digital nomads do youthink there are worldwide?
How many digital nomads do youthink there are worldwide?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And by that term they're not in their own
countries, where they're born,they've moved somewhere else.
These are people who, yeah,people who define themselves as
digital nomads.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Moving about, yeah, moving around.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Gosh.
Okay, Give me 10 seconds onthis.
I'm going to take the amount ofcountries percentage.
Me 10 seconds on this.
So I'm going to take the amountof countries percentage I think
there are 700 000.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Okay, so that's and that's you thinking about this
and then thinking a bit morethan you probably originally
first thought, and adding a bitokay we're currently between 35
and 40 million people no come on.
Yes, and I knew that wouldstartle you, because you think
this is a tiny, tiny number ofpeople doing this.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
The thing that's interesting is they're not like
our friend Simon, who's movedcountries.
They are moving.
They are following the droughtseason.
They're moving somewhere else.
You know, absolutely, gosh.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Give that number again, else you know Absolutely,
gosh, give that number againBetween 35 and 40 million.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
And that's validated.
I don't know how they've gotthat.
They must have.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I've got lots of articles on the BBC and on
various other forums and variousother sites that corroborate
that.
So we're looking at.
That's a trend that is not goinganywhere.
That's only ever going toincrease.
Okay, that's a trend that isnot going anywhere.
That's only ever going toincrease.
Okay, that's the first thing.
We've effectively got most ofthe working population of this
country.
In effect, we've got 68 millionor so in this in the uk, so
(15:13):
that the working population ofthis country would be like
everybody in the uk working fromgoing somewhere else.
That's, that's where it is.
That's a good way of thinkingabout it.
I've got here some also statson what percentage do you think
are millennials.
So which do you think?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Naturally, my default was older.
And then a part of me goes holdon.
They haven't got children yet,but they'd have to have done
well.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
That's a growing sector is digital nomads who
have children.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
It's small but it's growing.
My first thinking is I'm postmy children.
They've gone off.
They've either left home or I'mable to maintain a home in the
uk and they come and go orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Okay, so that's another thing to debunk yourself
off right.
Lots of these people do notmaintain a home in the place
they're coming.
Wow, because they've decided tobe a digital nomad.
Just go for it, so they'll getanother place when they come
back in the end okay, so.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
so I'm going to go older still.
So what was the question?
So what percentage aremillennials, are millennials?
So I'm going to go out of the100% of all millennials, I'm
going to say they make up only20%, 37% are millennials.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And what do you think percentage is between male and
female?
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Oh, that's good.
Okay, I'm going to say thatwomen are more.
I'm going to say women are lessmoving than men.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yes, you're right, it's 62% male, 38% women.
What percentage do you thinkare American?
And it is the highestpercentage of all digital nomads
.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
And that makes sense because my son, wherever he goes
, he says there's Americanseverywhere.
He goes to Rome in a quiet areaand there's six of them around
the corner.
Yeah, so North Americans,canadians, people from the US,
they are a staggering 40% of allof it 46,.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Very good, yeah, okay .
So nearly 50% are Americans.
Now, of course course, youimagine a digital nomad to be
sitting on a computer somewhereworking.
What percentage do you thinkwork full time as a digital
nomad in another country?
So what does that what you mean?
Work full time.
Ie, they're not part-time orcontracting for different
companies.
They are literally sittingworking.
(17:21):
Oh, I see full-time for anorganization.
Three quarters of them, 75.
Nearly, it's 62% full-time.
I mean, I'll give you a coupleof these.
There's no point guessing Ofthose who work full-time, if
they work 40 hours a week, 70%will do that work.
So, the fact they're sitting inPortugal doesn't mean they're
working any less than they woulddo.
So the percentage of digitalnomads who are satisfied with
(17:46):
their income is 82 percent yeah,I think that follows because
yeah, you've got to have enoughincome to be able to support the
lifestyle, so you wouldn't dothis unless you did have that so
I don't know if you've got theresearch on this.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
I wonder how many of them leave a place where the
place they move to the cost ofliving is less than where they
came from.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
The vast majority, and we will come on to that in a
moment because I've got somestats on that.
But there's a few more thingshere.
What year do you think the termdigital nomad was coined?
Speaker 1 (18:20):
That will be the mid-90s, when internet started
to get better, so it wasactually 1997.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Two chaps, sugio Makimoto and David Manners,
wrote a book called the DigitalNomad, predicting exactly what
has happened, and that's beendoing the rounds ever since Now.
Here's a really interestingquestion that's been doing the
rounds ever since now.
Here's a really interestingquestion do all digital nomads
use digital nomad visas?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
gosh, the answer is going to be a very solid no and
there'll be loopholes.
There'll be relationshiploopholes parental passport
changes.
I remember now my mother'sirish.
There'll be all sorts going onthere, won't there?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
so interestingly, what I found out is that, whilst
lots of over 50 countries nowoffer you a digital nomad visa,
the vast I would say nearly ahalf of all digital nomads are
not staying long enough in eachcountry in order to need one,
because they literally wanted togo around to different places.
Ah, I was taking the questionas you mean like moving from
(19:41):
digital nomad to settling inanother.
Portugal and Spain and Italyand many other countries want to
attract people to live therefor longer, so they're offering
incentives for you to get one ofthose visas.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So what you're saying is some of them.
If they were coming fromBritain and they had to play the
visa rules they would bereturning.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yes, well, not necessarily returning to britain
, of course they.
They might do six weeks inspain.
They might then fly to thailandfor two months I see they might
fly to australia for threemonths because there are
different rules in differentcountries but you make the clear
point.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
The technicality I understand is is it's europe?
You can't remain in europe formore than 90 days.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
True, that's, that's true, that's true, unless you
have a digital nomad easilywhich will allow you to live, in
some cases for up to three orfive years, in a European
country which actually getsaround that current restriction.
So that's why I think it'sbecoming Can you then apply for
another one?
Haven't read into that.
I'm assuming you can, but Ithink there will be limits to
how long you can do it.
(20:45):
For it's interesting, ingermany they have a different
system, called a freelancer visa, which there are very strict
rules hi, I'm a freelancer, areyou?
I'm just freelancing my wayaround berlin and and you, once
you've gone through the strictrules to get one of those.
You then have a year and thenyou can extend it for up to
three years.
(21:05):
But I think that's fairlystrict and they don't expect you
to hang around long after that.
And then the last stat I've gotjust on the top 10 was that we
talked about those people thatare full-time workers 66% have
traditional jobs, two thirds soI work for this company, I'm on
a salary and that's it.
And then a third arecontractors, self-employed or
(21:29):
you know their own business.
So that's the stat.
Now, I knew that some of thosestats would blow your mind,
because I knew that you thoughtthis was a very, very niche
thing.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, rather than mainstream.
I did feel that it wasn't fullyaccessible to younger
millennials, but millennials aregetting older and it's
interesting Did you say it was,what percentage of millennials?
The vast majority wouldn't 37%.
Yeah, so nearly sort of 60% areolder.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And those older people?
No, they're not, oh, they'renot that much.
Older Generation Z 21%.
Right, wow, baby boomers,they're not oh they're not that
much older Generation Z 21%.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Right, wow Baby boomers 15%.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, so the biggest sector is 45, 45 year olds, or
something, is it?
Well, no, your typical digitalnomad is a white male from
America who's 35.
Right, he is abroad for aminimum of seven months a year.
He spends a lot of his time ina place called Port Mau in
Portugal, which apparently isvery popular.
He is either a developer ofsome kind or the founder of a
(22:33):
startup of some kind.
That's very, very common, andthe average salary is $122,000,
about £90,000.
That's a typical digital nomad.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
So I tell you, I was in oxford yesterday with tash
and we walked past a brand newpastel donata shop.
Okay, well, you say we wentgosh.
Do you remember we had thosewhen we were in lisbon and we
would have two each and coffeeand tea and we'd give the guy
five euros, 20 yeah how much isa single pastel donato, which is
(23:04):
tiny they're the smallest onesI've ever seen in this shop in
oxford well, if it's anythinglike the ones in lewis, it's
going to be three or four quidapart.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
It's two pounds 85 god they're having a laugh,
aren't they?
Speaker 1 (23:14):
and and we just looked at them, went wow, so
that's.
Another point is if the cost ofliving is less always my
digital nomad.
I'm building in rental income.
I mean not rental income.
I'm paying rent because I'mprobably not allowed to buy.
You can't buy under the visa,can you?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
um, I don't think you can buy, although I've seen
nothing to say that you can't dothat well, if you did, you've
got to sell it and go withinfive, haven't you?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
no, no no you.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
You could buy the property and keep it, but you
couldn't necessarily live therewell, that's the point.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Definitely buy's the point.
You could definitely buy it.
There's not the added advantageof, hey, I've now bought it.
No, when my visa's up, I'm out,yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
But then actually if you look at some of these places
, some of the property is so low.
If you're that much of a kindof switched on digital nomad,
you could buy the place, have ayear there hanging on, so it's.
It's actually quite a sort ofuh thing for somebody who's a
bit entrepreneurial.
(24:07):
You.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
You could actually do quite well in that, in that
world.
It's funny you say that.
I was talking about the oldadage of taking a horse across
the state or or a boat that youtake across somewhere.
There's various tales that sayyou should never lease.
You should buy your boat to doyour journey and sell the boat
to someone else at the end.
That's more economic thanleasing.
So maybe there is something.
I'm going to be in Portugal forfive years or base myself there
(24:28):
.
I will buy a little thing and Imight just sell it before I get
out.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
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management programs that drivereal results.
For over 20 years, we've helpedmajor brands sell more, retain
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Speaker 2 (25:03):
So now let's move into some of the actual
practicalities of this yeah, I'dlike.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I mean, that's my question, I'm listening to this,
I'm going here, I am.
I mean, we've got listenersfrom different countries.
But maybe, if you just say,ostensibly, how does somebody do
this?
Someone's sitting listening tothis and it's raining and they
want some warmer climes.
They might be in a position,whether they're millennial or
they're older grown-up children.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I mean you said people taking small children is
on the increase, but it'sprobably the smallest sector, I
would have thought still well,so you'll be won't be surprised
to hear, with 40 million peopledoing this worldwide.
Yeah, yeah, there are nowcompanies set up to help people
do this yeah so you can actuallygo and speak to a company.
They'll say where do you wantto go?
I want to go to italy.
Okay, fine, whereabouts initaly?
(25:47):
Well, I'm not sure really well,um, tell me your situation.
Married with two small children, right?
well, the best place forkindergarten situation, yeah,
and the three situations ismilan or turin or wherever, and
this is where you're going to goand this is how you're going to
set it up, and we'll do it allfor you.
So that exists already.
Not just that, though.
There's a whole secondaryindustry springing up of
(26:11):
co-working spaces.
Yeah, yeah, and this exists allover the place.
I mean, I'm in lewis.
There's one up the road hereand it says outside, uh, it's
called networks, and so.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So if I don't go to an agency, what do I do?
I go online and look at thecountry and I.
Google nomadic visa in Italy,and there's application forms.
Absolutely, do I needpermission from my government in
the UK.
No, you just fill it in.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Right, yeah, the appeal to the foreign country is
that you are earning money froman outside company.
Yeah, okay, so that's important.
You're choosing to live andwork in their country and spend
your salary in that country,which they very much would like
you to do, and so as long as youcan prove that you're not going
to be a drain on the resourcesof that place that you decided
(26:58):
to go, then they're perfectlyhappy for you to live there for
a limited amount of time.
That's the deal.
Now, not only is that the dealand I haven't got time to go
through all the differentscenarios that exist, because
they're changing all the timebut each country that offers a
digital nomad visa will havevarious criteria.
You have to prove you earn acertain amount of money.
(27:19):
If you're a business owner, youhave to show accounts and
you're not just trying tosubvert the visa rules by doing
this.
So you have to prove that youcan sustain yourself.
But the fact is, we know thatthe average digital nomads is in
about 90,000 pounds a year, andyou could have a nice lifestyle
(27:41):
in England or the United Statesor wherever on that sort of
money.
But actually, if you go tosomewhere like Spain or Italy or
Greece or Thailand or aCaribbean island or Sri Lanka or
Hawaii or you know.
There's so many places you cando this.
You can actually have afantastic lifestyle on that sort
(28:01):
of money in those locations, beone of the richest people in
that area, and I've got a greatexample of this.
There's an area in Spain, tothe east of Portugal, and it's
one of the poorest areas inSpain actually, but lovely part
of the world.
The summers will be long andhot and they will give you, as a
(28:21):
digital nomad, 15,000 euros asa sweetener for you to move to
that area for two years.
Two years, that's how much theywant you to do it, they really
want you there.
They do.
There are certain places inItaly where they'll give you
30,000 euros to do it, becausethey want you to move into that
area and spend your money, andthat's the appeal, I think, for
(28:45):
those places.
Now, that's if you want to staysomewhere for a couple of years
.
As I say, I think there arelots of digital nomads who just
make a plan for a couple ofyears.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah right.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I'm going to move around.
I can have six weeks here,three months here, move around
to somewhere I like, and I get abudget for all of that, all of
the accommodation costs, and Ican do that because I can
literally work anywhere.
Now there is some disadvantages.
If you're working for a UnitedStates organization and you're
somewhere which is seven oreight hours ahead or seven or
(29:15):
eight hours behind where yourmain office is, you are going to
need to be doing late nights orearly morning meetings and
you're just going to have toaccept that.
That that's part of the dealand I think that's something
that people have to come toterms with.
But I think, other than that,it's for your company to think
okay, this person's workingthere, I trust them to do their
work and do what they have to do, and I need to think about that
(29:39):
when trying to organize thingswith them.
And once you have got your headaround that to organize things
with them and once you have gotyour head around that, I think
it's remarkably easy.
The appeal is amazing the ideaof being somewhere warm where
you do your day's work and inthe evening you go out and it's
23 degrees and there's a bar ona beach.
I can't see that there's muchwrong with that, really, as an
appealing location, and you'regoing to be paying two to three
(30:03):
euros for a beer, as opposed tosix or seven pounds in the UK.
So there is that thing about itit is going to cost you less to
live in these locations, whichis appealing.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
This sort of digital bit could be a topical word.
You know.
I'm thinking of a joke by Macin the Telegraph or something,
or a well-known cartoonist of acouple of people looking at a
cross, at an Englishman in acafe, and someone says is he a
digital nomad?
He hasn't had his laptop sincehe's arrived.
He's a notebook nomad, you knowit's.
(30:34):
I'm just sort of that kind ofimage.
You don't have to be using thelaptop, no, but everybody does,
absolutely because they're.
Yeah, that's part of the toolfor communication and software
it is and the other thing I goto is, let's just say, a family
wanted to go to portugal for twoyears, put their kids in the
schools there and they were ableto get a job there.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Oh, that's different.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I know, I'm just spelling out the difference.
They're then having thePortuguese state employ them,
engage them healthcare,da-da-da-da-da.
So, there's the idea that's aslightly more higher cost to the
nation.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Your singular thing that you're pointing out is that
if the income comes fromanother country into the bank
account, into Portugal, that'sexternal funds with no drawing
of the existing company.
Exactly, that's interesting,but if that person was highly
productive and worked for thecompany and was great to have in
the country, that takes us backto everyone being able to do
(31:34):
this.
But we're saying this is adistinction.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It's currently not this is a way of getting into
europe and beyond it is that,but I also think it's more than
that.
I think it is a huge lifestylechoice that many people have got
the right mindset to do becausethey're so used to working
remotely now that it doesn'tmatter where.
Extension for an adventurousmind.
(31:56):
You just think well, I couldliterally do this anywhere.
I'm going to do that.
Now there is a backlash, as youwon't be surprised to hear.
So certain locations likeBarcelona and various others are
getting a bit sick of digitalnomads because their arrival in
these places is driving up theprices for locals.
So that is a downside where, oh, lots of people with high
(32:18):
incomes coming in who can affordto pay three or four or five
euros for a beer right, so thelocal bar whacks the prices up
absolutely, and so that's one ofthe downsides here.
However, I would say that what'shappening is I did a search and
I thought I'd give you a listof all the countries where you
can do this.
There is too many.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
There are too many.
All over the world.
There's some distinctions, butyou're saying so.
Can you do this in France?
Oh, yes, so France.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Most of the European countries you can, except
Germany, as I said.
What about the Nordics and theScandis?
I'm sure you can, but I haven'tlooked into the details there.
There are some where you can'tbecause various reasons.
But what's happening, I think,is that lots of places are going
.
Hang on a minute.
Hang on a minute.
So there's a place calledanguilla, which is a caribbean
(33:09):
island.
I think.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, um, yeah, the cost of that digital visa is
quite a few thousand dollars soit's a bit ah, you pay for the
visa, so you pay for the visa,so what does that cost you?
To buy the visa in spain orwhatever?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
well, sometimes it's, you know, hundreds, 200 euros.
I mean, you know it depends onwhat it is and where it is, but
they're changing all the timethose fees because it's becoming
more popular.
There's a few important thingsto just to ponder on this.
There are two main markets nowfor digital nomads.
The first is what we discussed,so the individual or the couple
and, in tiny percentage cases,a family, going to a country,
(33:46):
working for a few months or ayear and moving on.
So that's the first type, ofwhich there are many, many
people doing.
But going back to what wediscussed at the beginning, if
you are no longer paying for amassive office or a much smaller
, smaller head office and youdon't need all that office space
, that gives you some funds.
And so the secondary market fordigital nomads is, if I have 40
(34:10):
people in my team workingacross the globe in various
locations, I'm going to want tobring them together a few times
a year.
So that is what's called theoff-site marketplace, and what
that means is that you'll say,right, we're going to choose the
Digital Nomad location inPortugal.
Let's say we're going to bookthat location.
(34:31):
That location is a beautifulproperty that has amazing
facilities.
They have yoga classes andexercise classes in the evening.
They have beautiful rooms, aswimming pool on the roof, a
lovely bar in the evening, andwe're all going to book that and
spend two or three weeksworking together on our projects
(34:53):
, spending time together.
The company pays for theaccommodation and the flights.
Then we go back to our hybrid,varied, nomadic locations and
work and then we'll come backtogether in a few months time
somewhere else.
Now that's a huge marketplacebecause people think, yeah, I'd
like to do that and actually thecompany is going to pay.
So that's really good.
(35:14):
And I found a great example abeautiful place in Portugal, in
Porto.
Funnily enough, they have arooftop pool, they have
different events and this isthis whole thing I was talking
about, the kind of co-workingscenario.
So if you've got a site or anumber of sites around the city
that you own and you've gotindividuals running their own
business, people working forcompanies or companies
(35:37):
themselves and teams coming in,you're mixing with varied types
of of worker and so they willrun events and food-based
sessions and training sessionsand networking sessions and go
off on a trip and see butthey're expecting you to be
there for a week or something,or two weeks or whatever it
(35:58):
might be.
The average is about two weeks.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah, because those are people who are then coming
back to their countries tocontinue whatever it is they
have there.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Or to go to wherever they're actually working from.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Yeah, because they've been pulled in.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
And this place is beautiful with lovely rooms.
The average cost for a room pernight en suite room is between
$85 and $115 a night for a verynice room in this lovely
location with the pool and allthe other bits and pieces.
Now, that is a huge marketplace.
So I think there's somethingvery appealing also about saying
(36:33):
well, no, we're not paying forour offices anymore, so why
don't we go and have a strategysession in Italy for a few weeks
?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
So here's a question Is anybody want to come and be a
digital nomad in the UK?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Well, isn't that interesting.
There's no statistic on that.
Do we offer it to people?
I haven't seen it.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
I don't think that we do so.
You've looked from here goingout.
I understand that.
I'm wondering if somebody's inNew York and saying I want to go
and work in London, England,for a bit.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Well, I mean, the most popular country on earth is
the USA to do it in, so to goand do it there.
But then you've also got Spainas the second.
I think Spain has a lot goingfor it because you've got
amazing cities like Madrid,barcelona, seville, all those
places down in the sun, andyou've got that good climate and
Burgos.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
more people could discover your Burgos.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Well, they could, but I think it's very rainy in
winter.
It's a bit like Ireland andBurgos, so I think you'd
probably go there for the springperiod, it'd be lovely you
might, you might.
That's quite appealing.
So I think that's theinteresting stat, that it's not
just moving around it.
(37:39):
It's not just moving around.
It's also this idea that as acompany, we could do what we're
doing anywhere if people canhave, if people can work
anywhere, then we can workanywhere.
Why do we have to have ameeting in london or new york,
wherever our offices are?
Why don't we go abroadsomewhere?
Speaker 1 (37:49):
I think what's very interesting is a lot of people's
work, sort of the main bit ofthe work isn't necessarily
physical, is it?
No?
That, no, that's what'sinteresting.
But it is also quite selective,because a key worker can't do
this.
I'm a nurse, I'm going to goand be a nurse, no, no, because
you work at this hospital.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
You know, in our sketch the 11-year-old talking
to you is his uncle.
His father went to a factoryand helped make hammers.
So he can't do it.
It's only open to a sort ofselect type job description.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
And I know you said marketing company, but one does
seem to think of the creativeindustries software developers,
coders yeah, yes, absolutely,you know, because, if I don't,
I've got some stats on that,because I can see that that's a
question, because you think,well, surely only certain types
of business can do this.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Well, I think it's job function.
It's more the function of anybusiness can do it because
there'll be people within it,but some might have an expertise
in a particular role thatrequires their physical presence
in a different environment.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Well, let's be clear.
So 79% of digital nomads relyon technology yeah, for their
work.
So that's a fact.
You've got to rely ontechnology in order for it to
work, anyway.
I think that's that's the thing.
However, if you think about thestat, in 1997, the idea of
digital nomads was just an idea.
Nobody was doing it.
Now we've got nearly 40 millionpeople doing it.
(39:14):
Yes, it's only ever going togrow, and so what's going to
happen is the idea is that whatyou can do remotely will grow
and grow as well.
So the most common jobs arethings like developers of
various types, systemsadministrators, web developers
that's a massive chunk softwaredevelopers, people who work in
sass, and virtual reality andall that sort of thing, but then
(39:38):
you also get areas like humanresources.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yeah, you know why do you need to do that from
anywhere?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Why do you need to be in an office?
Psychologists of course you cando that face to face anywhere.
Journalists yeah, now it's gothere.
Medical professionals it's up33%.
A few years ago, moving abroadto do, yeah, that work, you
could work abroad support jobs.
Creatives up 21 percent, yeah.
Bloggers, coaches just a bitlike psychologists.
(40:05):
There you go yeah, so, yeah, sothere's definite growth in in
those areas, but again, it'staking time for those to catch
up with the big it jobs that arecurrently taking place.
So there are some places thatthey said you wouldn't want to
go.
So they said you wouldn't wantnecessarily to go to Japan,
because I think the cost ofliving there is even more
astronomical than London andplaces like Kuwait where it must
(40:30):
be unbearably hot, and thingslike that.
Now, the top five cities thatmale digital nomads like the
most are number five Cape Town,south Africa.
Really.
Number four Seoul, south Korea.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Really.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Number three Madrid in Spain.
Number two Porto in Portugal.
That's very popular for digitalnomads, and the number one in
2024 is Budapest in Hungary.
Yeah, great place, so that mustbe very low cost to live there.
I would imagine so veryappealing.
The top five cities thatnomadic women like the most
(41:08):
Vienna, berlin, munich, chiangMai.
In Thailand and you won'tbelieve this Medellin in
Colombia, really yes, what dothey like about Medellin?
I couldn't possibly say.
Maybe they've got a secondaryjob as a drugs mule.
I mean, who knows?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
To our Colombian listeners not everyone from
Colombia.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
No, no, but these are nomads going there.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
It's funny.
I started doing I mean, I doyoga and I've tried a bit of
Pilates.
And the woman who I foundonline says I looked at her
website, I'm originally, she'sfrom Europe.
Now she says but now I'm I baseand I run my work from Thailand
, so she is teaching and filmingand recording and uploading
from Thailand.
She can live anywhere to teachPilates.
You know, yeah, that'sfascinating, isn't it?
(41:56):
So what about relating this toyou?
If?
Do you have a nomadic visionfor you?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
oh, I really do.
I mean, I really do.
I think this is very appealingfor somebody like me who I've
reached a certain age.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
My boys have reached the point where they are, you
know, becoming more independent,and so the necessity for me to
be in the uk is lower the otherfact is that you and I both were
crestfallen with the Brexitresult, of course, but then it's
a way of you accessing Europe,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Oh, very, very much so, and I think that's a great
point.
However, there are pros andcons, so the pros are fairly
obvious.
So the ability to travel whenand where you want, you have a
great work-life balance, youexperience new cultures and you
meet new people.
I mean, that is the massiveappeal of being a digital nomad,
and 78% feel optimistic aboutthe future of their careers by
(42:48):
taking this as their job.
So that's, I think there's noquestion that for the individual
, it's incredibly positive.
There are some disadvantages andchallenges.
The challenges are certaincountries.
You might feel less personallysafe.
You're going to places whichare less well-developed.
Being away from family andfriends that would be your
biggest thing.
You would struggle with thathugely.
(43:08):
I think Working across timezones is a challenge.
We've talked about that.
You're going to have to be upat certain times.
Loneliness 26% report a levelof loneliness because you might
be in a co-working place full ofpeople who are not like you at
all and that might be slightlydifficult.
Travel logistics can be a pain,and also managing work and
travel together could bedifficult too.
(43:29):
So those are some of the theclear challenges.
However, the future isabsolutely immense.
The predictions on growth arejust exponential.
And so if you think we'reapproaching 40 million now, in
2024, in another six years' timeit's going to be we're getting
up towards 100 million, andthat's massive.
And that's 100 million peopleon good money traveling the
(43:53):
world to work rather thanstaying in a single place, and
that's a huge shift.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I'm wondering if at one point they will.
Then well, with some way off atipping point, whether they say
we don't want this money goingout the country.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
It's interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Imagine you're a small country and you suddenly
suffer a brain drain.
But it isn't a real brain drainbecause the company's head
office is technically based inthat country where you live.
But you're now working inanother country and the salary
is going out.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Well, no, there is a gray area around where you pay
your tax.
So if you're still being paidyour salary in the UK, if you
pay tax at source, thatcontinues and you're just
spending it elsewhere.
So the country doesn't get thatbit of the money.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah yeah, there we are, but still if you're
spending all your earnings inanother country and a lot of
people were doing it from thatcountry- yeah then the gdp of
the nation would go down becausethe and the amount of money
being spent.
You know, that's interesting,really intriguing some of those.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
It is I did some research into rents in certain
countries and you know the rentsin the UK are off the charts at
the moment, very, very high.
You go to somewhere like Spainresidential not necessarily with
a sea view and a appealingholiday apartment block, but a
residential apartment in Spain,Italy, Greece, Turkey, somewhere
(45:15):
that's going to be warmer heredefinitely than the UK for a few
months.
You're looking at a few hundredeuros per month, I believe it,
sometimes as low as 350, 300euros a month, or you could
probably get a one bed probablya one bed would be even less,
almost certainly.
And then it becomes very, veryaffordable because again, your
(45:35):
cost of living plummets and youalso get the benefit of the
climate.
So I think, looking at this, itis right now very appealing.
I think there will be not onlychallenges in terms of the
cultural impact on locals, butalso certain countries will
think well, hang on a minute, weneed to think about this
because we're now lessattractive for investment.
(45:58):
It's a great indicator, isn'tit?
How many digital home ads doyou have?
Hardly any.
Well, maybe we should go wherethey're going.
So that's interesting.
I think it also opens up thisidea of using the fact that
there are low-cost flights,low-rent apartments All these
things become available.
(46:18):
Why don't companies takeadvantage of these things in
order to have a more interestingworking life, which I think is
appealing?
And in fact, I remember beingoffered an off-site as a target.
If we beat a target for anAmerican company I was working
for, we would then get taken tobarcelona for an offsite.
We had to hit the target to doit.
(46:39):
Yeah, now they would do it as amatter of course every three
months.
I would imagine they just gowell, let's all go.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Let's all just don't go and do it because the cost is
so much lower yeah, now it'sinteresting I can see other side
businesses, as you say, growingup, you know you've got airbnb,
you could have nomad airbnb andjust you know a house that as
you walk in it's set up for itwith a standing desk and a
brilliant this, and that youcould kind of create the space,
couldn't you?
Speaker 2 (47:03):
oh, it would be fantastic.
But also I think if you aresingle, yeah, then it is
appealing because you are goingto meet lots of new people, and
if you can work effectively fromanywhere, then actually why
wouldn't you?
Why would you sit somewherewhere the weather's perpetually
miserable, freezing?
Speaker 1 (47:21):
cold.
I mean you've always struggledwith our weather.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
I have I have, if you think about it, december,
january, february, to do that inthe sun somewhere.
I can't see any issue with that.
I think it would be delightfulto be 15 degrees warmer on
average, to be 15 degrees warmeron average.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
I think that would be pretty good.
Come and be a digital nomad inthe UK and enjoy warm fires in
the pub and mulled wine.
I give it to me as a marketingchallenge.
I'll sell it back the other way.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
I think that's hilarious.
I think that would be a really,really good deal A free welly
boot loan in every house.
We've got your welly bootslined up for you.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
We'll have a wax jacket sorted.
There'll be the waterproofs.
We've got it fully worked outfor you People who live in such
hot countries, you're desperateto come and have cooler weather.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Then the Spanish guys would do another ad showing
some people running through therain in London going where could
we have gone for this?
Let's go to Spain.
I think it just has thatThey've always got the sun
Anyway.
I think it just has thatThey've always got the sum
Anyway.
That's an interesting topic.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
It's good fun.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I think it's one we'll be returning to in due
course.
Nice stuff, good stuff.
If you like our podcast, pleaseshare it with your friends and
colleagues.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
And we look forward to entertaining you with another
one very soon indeed, jeremy,lovely to see you.
Yeah, you too.
Lovely stuff, bobby Cheers.
Okay, all the best, thank you.
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