April 7, 2025 • 34 mins
Are values just words on a wall? Or something you’re willing to stand by – even when it’s hard?
In this episode, Bob & Jeremy take on the uncomfortable question many businesses are now facing: What happens to your integrity when you quietly scale back your DEI programme?
We’re seeing it everywhere - big names like Google, Pepsi, and investment banks are stepping back from the DEI work they once shouted about. And here’s the thing: it’s not just a budget decision. It’s a values decision.
So, we ask:
- What do those cuts really say about what you stand for?
- Are we really ‘past the point’ of needing DEI – or just bowing to political pressure?
- And can values mean anything if they change with the wind?
With real-world examples, a dash of satire (don’t miss Bob & Jeremy’s sketch), and some heartfelt debate, this episode digs deep into the link between inclusion, integrity, and business leadership.
Whether you’re leading a team, shaping company culture, or just wondering where your business stands – this is the conversation you won’t want to miss.
For more info, free resources, useful content & our blog posts, please visit realitytraining.com.
Reality Training - Selling Certainty
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Morrell (00:02):
Hi and welcome to Business on the Radio and today
I'm joined by Mr Jeremy Black,who is the CEO of JT Gold, one
of the major investment banks inthe city.
He's joining us today to answerquestions about the scaling
(00:23):
back of his bank's worldwidediversity, equity and inclusion
program.
Welcome to the show, mr Black,good morning.
For the last few years, I readthat your organization has had
an extensive series of DEIprograms which, according to one
(00:45):
of the press releases I read onyour website, has greatly
improved the diversity of thepool of talent that you're
working with.
Why have you scaled back thisprogram?
In fact, in some places,cancelled it completely?
Jeremy Blake (00:58):
Well, that's interesting to say that it's
greatly improved.
I'm not quite sure where you'veread that, and this is really
one of the key challenges ofmeasuring if it has any impact
at all.
What's so important?
You've talked about recruitment.
What's so important is we havea rigorous recruitment policy
where the best people for thejob are recruited, and I would
(01:20):
like to point out straight awayand, if I may, regardless of
colour, race, gender or anything, we are open to anybody working
at the bank and we always havebeen, since it was founded.
Granted.
Bob Morrell (01:32):
So, in terms of cutting back this programme
which, as I say, has beenrunning for several years now,
was this a financial decision, acultural one, or something else
, one or something else Not atall and I say not at all against
my financial decision.
Jeremy Blake (01:50):
It's a decision based on a number of the key
stakeholders I've talked towhere there isn't really any
demonstrable difference.
We are ethical in our core aspeople at the bank and by
actually having a separatepolicy with various programs
that were running, there was nodirect link that could be made.
And we need to considershareholder value.
Of course we do, and at thesame time, I'm not getting
(02:12):
people banging on my door,beating a path to me saying we
don't have the right people here.
So I find this an interestingdebate.
Bob Morrell (02:21):
So there was no external pressure on you to
scale back these programs.
External pressure to scale back?
Well, I mean, we know for afact that Pepsi, GM, Google,
Disney, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citigroup have
all cancelled or scaled backtheir DEI programs.
So you're saying there's noexternal pressure on you?
Jeremy Blake (02:43):
to remove those programs.
Bob Morrell (02:44):
I think it's just interesting that there must be a
number of a sort of commoncurrency of ideas and thinking
around, this Nothing to do withthe fact that lots of these
organizations have contractswith the American government.
Jeremy Blake (02:54):
Well, I would say that it's a thing of our time,
or perhaps it was a thing ofthat time, Perhaps it was a.
You know, there have been manytrends.
Even in my short tenure here atthe bank, there's been many
trends and focuses and thingscome and go and I think it's
important to recognize thisdoesn't in any way change our
characters and the way we treatpeople.
Bob Morrell (03:16):
That has always been imperative, but that's a
really good point that you'vemade and I want to ask you about
that no-transcript there's anypolitical pressure in any way.
(03:55):
That's led to this choice.
Jeremy Blake (03:57):
Look, when you talk about political pressure,
we are in charge of individuals'money.
We're also in charge oforganizations' money.
We're also in charge of publicsector money.
We have such a vast amount ofpeople when you talk about
pressure.
Bob Morrell (04:10):
Our job is to return profit on the funds that
we are tasked to manage, so sothis is completely separate well
that what you're saying iscompletely separate to this
point, because you, for the lastfew years, as many of your uh
your colleagues in differentorganizations have done, have
been running successful DEIprograms which have broadened
(04:31):
the breadth and the empathytowards different types of
employee and all of a suddenthese have been taken away.
So if they're taken away, areyou replacing what you might
term traditional DEI effortswith a different approach to
fostering inclusion?
Jeremy Blake (04:50):
So it depends what area of the business you wish
to discuss.
So you've started withrecruitment.
We are incredibly careful overgetting the right person to fit
into the bank and we arecompletely open to any faith,
color, creed, gender persuasion,whatever.
That's never changed.
I don't need anyone to give mea policy to be human.
Bob Morrell (05:12):
Thank you, one of your company's values is a
commitment to integrity andfairness.
Yes, integrity and fairness.
How do you feel that removal ofDE programs, which are all
about, let's be honest, equity,fairness how do you feel that
that squares with your companyvalue?
Are you going to remove that asa value now?
Jeremy Blake (05:32):
you see you're, you're latching on to something
that you've clearly picked up onyour research, but I want to go
back to a point that you justraised.
A second, no, no, I want you toanswer that point?
Bob Morrell (05:41):
your value is integrity and fairness.
Are you saying now that youdon't need to be as fair because
that program is no longerrelevant, because politically
it's uncomfortable?
Jeremy Blake (06:04):
or been under question.
You're questioning it becauseof the removal of the programs.
You're trying to make aconnection between the removal
of a program which you say hasbeen massively successful I
don't know where you're gettingthat.
We know the success of our ownprograms and at the same time
you're trying to make thisconnection that we're now less
human, less fair and so on.
And it really doesn't.
Bob Morrell (06:22):
Well, actually, to be fair, Mr Black, we know that
these things are successfulbecause for the past 10 years,
every single major corporationhas run these things
successfully and then, literallywithin a few months of a new
government being sworn intoAmerica, they've all been cut or
hugely scaled back.
Now I want to move to one otherquestion your company values
(06:42):
about the way you deal with yourclients and the way you operate
with superb excellence, and allthese sorts of things.
Do you think it's possible tohumanize a corporation which,
after all, is many humans?
Do you think it's possible tocreate values which actually are
humanizing something whichisn't actually real?
Jeremy Blake (07:05):
values which actually are humanizing
something which isn't actuallyreal.
No, I don't.
And at the same time, I thinkwe could even argue that company
values was a trend for a periodof time.
Having said that, the foundersof our bank and the founders of
many corporations talked aboutvalues and the way to treat
people.
If you're in a better positionthan someone else, you should
look after people.
So I'm not suggesting it needsto be written or printed, but
(07:28):
now that we've got them, there'sno harm reinforcing them.
But I don't believe they can behumanized.
But what we can do in ourrecruitment is look for people
with these skills, as I've saidbefore, without any need to hold
up a torch to make sure that weare being diverse with our
equity and inclusion.
We are.
We don't need to necessarilyrun these programs to carry on
(07:52):
this behavior.
Bob Morrell (07:55):
So actually what you're saying is that these
values are largely, to everyonewho reads them, meaningless.
Jeremy Blake (08:03):
No, I'm not saying that.
You've just said that.
What I'm saying is that webegan with them.
Bob Morrell (08:06):
You've just said that by scaling back these
things, you don't necessarilyneed them, which, when we talk
about things like integrity andfairness, if that's a value,
that's something that you liveby, that's something that you
stand for, you don't stand forit enough to be able to be
diverse to be fair to people andto include people in your
(08:29):
organization to the extent thatyou did before.
Jeremy Blake (08:30):
So these are your words.
You've tried to make aconnection throughout this
interview where you're sayingit's politically motivated.
You're now trying to make aconnection between dropping the
diversity and inclusion programswith a connection to our values
.
These are separate.
Our values are our values and ahuman's values.
We don't need people to tell ushow to do that, and I think
that's where this trend perhapshas come up against its problems
.
So isn't it interesting?
Bob Morrell (08:51):
that we're not the only one.
We have to leave it there, mrBlack, but I suppose it'll come
down to customers whether theydecide whether or not there's a
connection between these things.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
But anyway, thank you for your time.
Bob Morrell (09:01):
Thank you.
Jeremy Blake (09:33):
Well, you're listening to the Reality of
Business.
Thank you for selecting thisand making it something that you
get pleasure from listening.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blake,and there's your host, Bobby
Morrell.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blake,and there's your host, Bobby
Morrell.
So you've probably guessed fromthe sketch that this episode is
about diversity, equity,inclusion and a little bit more.
So, Bob, do you want to expandon what's led us to want to do
(09:54):
this?
Bob Morrell (09:58):
Well, there's been so much commentary recently
about what's happening.
So ever since the inaugurationand in fact even before the
inauguration, there's been hugecontroversy, and that's because
major corporations, like manythat were mentioned in the
interview so we're talking aboutPepsi, gm, google, disney, ge,
intel, we're also looking atmajor investment banks and other
(10:19):
major corporations are allscaling back their DEI programs
or initiatives or things thatthey did to make sure that they
had a diverse workforce, thatthey were fair to everyone and
they were inclusive when it cameto recruitment and integration
and collaboration.
And these DEI programs, as Isaid, in many cases have been
(10:44):
running for years and almostovernight they've been cancelled
or hugely scaled back.
Now in some cases they haven't.
Interestingly, appleshareholders voted against
banning the DEI initiatives, butinteresting that they were
asked that question Shall we banthese DEI initiatives?
So, even Apple and I think it'salso fair to say that not all
(11:05):
companies are abandoning DEIinitiatives, but many of the
biggest are, and some peoplehave said well, that's because
they have huge contracts withthe government and the US
government are putting thesemessages out there and then, in
fact, internally within thegovernment, they're scaling back
these things and they expecttheir suppliers or the people
(11:27):
who provide services to them todo the same, and a lot of
organizations, it seems, havefound it very easy to reach the
decision to cut these programs.
And we just thought it'd beworth having a debate about that
, because I've heard lots ofdebates on programs and looked
in various periodicals and alsoin other podcasts about where
(11:50):
this sudden trend which, let'sbe honest, is a political thing
where this trend has come fromand how quickly it's been
enacted, but also how this alsofeeds into this thing which
we've covered quite a few timeson the podcast company values.
If you have a company valueabout empathy or about caring or
(12:13):
about trust or aboutresponsibility or anything which
opens the metaphorical arms ofthe organization to everybody on
earth, how does that valuesquare with this sort of action,
which is clearly coming from avery particular political
(12:33):
perspective, and I think it'sworth?
Jeremy Blake (12:35):
debating.
One of the things I thoughtwhen and it was one of our
clients when we turned up and wewere there one day and there
was some of this diversity workgoing on what I sort of squared
in my head was this is morepowerful than words on a wall
saying what their values are,because they're actually doing
something about it and they weretalking about recruitment, they
(12:56):
were talking about gender.
This was at the time of thepronoun debate debate that you
know people choosing to statehow they wish to be addressed
and there were lots of peoplewho just didn't know anything
about this, and so it was a hugeleveling level of education
taking place in the minds of thepeople who are in that workshop
.
And then someone said, oh no,no, we have someone who does
(13:17):
this.
And I thought, well, so manypeople wouldn't know this.
So it's kind of forming into aquestion to ask you when you are
aligning the two, like thevalues.
In my mind, a DEI program wasthe definitive creation of
something real to try to educatepeople and improve a company's
(13:41):
balance, if you like.
Are you saying in your openingaddress where you're listing
these companies, are you sayingthat they no longer the vast
majority, no longer make thatconnection, which is why they've
cut it?
Bob Morrell (13:52):
they don't think that you have to have a tangible
program to run I think they domake that connection, but I
think they've realized that itis not in their interest to
explicitly say so by running aprogram, and so they've cut it
to be in step with the currentzeitgeist.
Jeremy Blake (14:12):
So I use yeah, and that's what's interesting
zeitgeist.
So when you talked, in thesketch you talked about
political alignment.
This is a closed question.
Do you believe that largecorporations believe that if
they continue them, thegovernment of their country, or
some of the countries theyoperate in, would look at them
(14:32):
less favorably?
Bob Morrell (14:34):
This is the question.
Now I've got a few stats here,because the four pillars of DEI
and you've already mentioned oneof them are education, empathy,
engagement and accountability.
So I suppose what you're sayingis that the world has changed
in the last 30, 40 years and asan organization, we need to
(14:55):
recognize that fact and makesure that we are Now.
That's another perspective.
You could just say that surelywe've moved on to the point
where we don't need to educatepeople and talk about empathy,
(15:15):
but maybe we do.
Jeremy Blake (15:17):
I immediately, from my perspective, say we do,
because I think so many peopledon't understand it.
No, not everyone lives in anivory tower, but people come
from different backgrounds thatare so diverse they often have
no idea of how another humanbeing lives.
Bob Morrell (15:31):
No.
Jeremy Blake (15:32):
Or what they've had to go through to arrive
somewhere, and so I've alwaysthought that the education
allows people who've perhaps leda very secular existence to go
gosh.
Okay, ah, I had no idea.
So I think that pillar ofeducation has immediately been
lost if we're not educating,because how many people have the
self-motivation to self-educatethemselves on this topic?
Bob Morrell (16:02):
Exactly the point I was going to make, which is so
akin to that, is that if it werethe case that we as a society
are so advanced and educated nowthat we no longer need these
programs, wouldn't that bewonderful?
But the reason they're beingcut is because of a political
and public backlash that thesecompanies are afraid of.
That's the reason In terms ofintegrity.
That's what's so shameful aboutit that these brands, who have
(16:26):
these values that they purportto live by, but then, within a
month or two, think I thinkwe'll just cut the DEI because
it doesn't quite fit.
Well, hang on a minute.
What are you talking about?
Because where's the empathy?
Where's the engagement?
Because the reason you have DEIprograms presumably is because
we haven't got to that point insociety where we're educated.
(16:47):
We still do need that.
We still need people tounderstand and I've got a
definition here of what it gives.
It ensures that everyone in thediverse workforce feels
involved, valued, respected,treated fairly and integrated
into the company culture.
Who can argue with that as anobjective?
No, it's great Think about theother side of those words
(17:21):
Uninvolved, undervalueddisrespected, treated unfairly.
No, it's great.
Jeremy Blake (17:25):
And you posed it as a question, I think aligned
to education human beings, oftenthrough their parenting and
upbringing, many people can'thelp but form a bias.
It's not really genetic, it'smore like learnt behavior.
That you were told this so manytimes and if you think of a
topic like racism.
(17:46):
You and I used to talk aboutthe terre blanche documentary.
This who?
Yes, yes and he couldn't see itany other way.
He'd been born a racist, raiseda racism nick broomfield trying
to ask him very basic questionsand he just couldn't see beyond
it.
So therefore, unless youreplace a bias with some level
of education, the bias biasremains Absolutely right.
(18:09):
When we come into recruitment,for example, if somebody is
looking for a certain stereotypethat is more akin to them,
they're more likely to employthem because they look for it,
and once they found it, they'llrely on the rest of the
interview to try to reinforcethe existing bias and go.
Bob Morrell (18:24):
I think you'll fit in here, you know, but isn't
that awful that the newgovernment coming in have made
people think that theirperspective is that DEI has gone
too far and things are toodiverse and too inclusive and
too fair, even on the most basiclevel.
We're being far too fair towomen.
(18:44):
Now what?
This is the point about this?
This is purely a politicalperspective from a very, very,
I'm afraid, misogynistic, oldfashioned, racist perspective
and homophobic and everythingelse.
Ok, it's all coming in fromthat political side and it's
(19:05):
damaging something which wasworking really well, and it's
also done for financial reasons.
You're not just doing it fromthe good of your heart.
We'll come on to that in aminute.
But I've got another couple oftwo diverse stats that you'll
like, well, one you won't like.
So, according to a survey doneby personnel today on their
(19:26):
website, 20% of Britons supportthis policy of scaling back DEI.
So that's what we're dealingwith.
We're dealing with a fifthbroadly of people who think,
yeah, I didn't see the point ofdoing those things.
Jeremy Blake (19:38):
Are we now extending that into again a
political hot potato of Brexitand Brexiteer?
You could say that you couldsay that that isolationism,
island mentality Possibly.
That's still quite a high stat.
Bob Morrell (19:51):
I thought it's one in five people it's not, it is,
but the good news is and this isone thing that gave me a great
relief the reason this isn'tquite so acute in the uk is
because the uk already hasworld-leading legislation in the
form of the 2010 Equality Act,which actually puts in law lots
(20:15):
of the things that these DEIprograms talk about.
So we are, as a country,further ahead legally on these
things than many other countrieswho don't have anything like
that.
So that is good.
Now, I did read one articlewhich I thought was interesting
from the London Business School.
They were saying that perhapsthis move will lead to better
initiatives, not fewer.
(20:36):
So you think, well, we'rescaling back DEI because it's
just what we need to do for PRpoints of view.
Let's think of something betterwe can do, which we'll call it
something else, and it might bemore effective.
Now I'd like to think that'strue, but these are companies.
Jeremy, what does the DEIprogram cost?
Every year, it costs us 50,000.
Well, that's easy money.
(20:57):
We'll just cancel it.
Easy money, we'll just cancelit.
And I just think that there'ssomething we have to think about
the financial side.
Now I'm going to give you a bitof background on that, because
yesterday I went into LinkedInand I asked my thousands of
connections on there to give mea comment on this subject, to
(21:17):
see if we could, you know, seewhat's going on in the world out
there, and I had a veryinteresting perspective from a
chap who you will remember, alexCopley.
We won't say where he works.
He's someone we know.
We've worked with him a fewtimes and he's made a very good
point here.
He says all businessinitiatives, however far removed
(21:38):
they might seem, exist with onesole purpose to help return
money to the shareholders.
So a good DEI program attractsstronger talent, more cash to
shareholders, clearly definedcompany values, more efficient
collaborative organizations,more cash for shareholders, but
none of these things are doneout of the goodness of anybody's
heart.
Recently, it seems that anybodythat does business with the us
(22:02):
government is scaling back well,why it now impacts the money
they can return to theirshareholders.
It might seem cold, but it'sthe reality.
Hoping for a shout out on thepodcast well, thanks, alex,
you've got that that's really,really intriguing, isn't it?
Jeremy Blake (22:17):
and what's very positive about that is if you
got hold of a company that weredebating the cutting or scaling
back and you said now look,you've got to remember that this
initiative means that you do itto the very best level, which
means that you're more likely tohave the right teams who can
speak to customers andinternally collaborate, which
means you're going to sell moreand return shareholder value.
(22:38):
It's a very good point, love it.
Bob Morrell (22:39):
Yeah, so that's the other side of it.
But then, if that's true, ifeverything you do is to return
profits, essentially, when youlook at your values, these are
our values.
Why are you bothering with them?
Why do you need to say any ofthat?
Jeremy Blake (22:54):
Well, what we seem to have is, if we remove the
DEI program, we go back towriting on a wall.
You know values on a wall, andI say a wall without joking.
There are a number of customerswho have them on a wall, and
sometimes the wall is atreception, sometimes it's a
corridor.
But if there's no programlinked to those values where
(23:15):
people actually understand whatthat means and how to embody it
and what you know, that's a word.
What we do with that inrecruitment is means we do this,
embody it and what you know,that's a word.
What we do with that inrecruitment is means we do this,
this and this and let's teachyou about it.
No, no, and I think that'swhere it falls down hugely,
doesn't?
well how is someone meant toinfer the point I'd like to get
to, which is a bit political,but well, it is political, is I?
I was reading about reagan andsort of what he did in the 80s
(23:41):
and Maggie and these sorts oftwo tribes, if you like, this
concept of meritocracy that ifyou work hard in life, then you
might climb a ladder and getyour just rewards.
Yeah, so Reaganism was a lot ofthat.
Bob Morrell (23:59):
That's 40 or 50 years ago, where the vast
majority of the workforce weremen, just on the most simplistic
level.
So the world's completelyshifted now.
Jeremy Blake (24:08):
Well, and this is my point, if you think of you
know, imagine saying that tosomebody being displaced from
Yemen, palestine, africa, europe, poland, ukraine hey, do you
not know about meritocracy, mate?
Just work hard and you'llchange your situation.
I think that that concept andhow he got in was often saying
(24:29):
do you want your neighbor beinglazy?
And all of these kind ofspeeches.
He did, but I think the conceptof a meritocracy now is hugely
changed and I think that thereare people who've never actually
had to work that hard and havehad things who still believe
that if somebody works hard, wecan reward them and we hold the
(24:50):
power to reward.
But I think it's become muchmore complicated to just come
out with a standard saying well,if you work hard, you'll
probably get that.
I think that's much harder inthe world we live in today today
.
Bob Morrell (25:02):
Well, the most common company values are things
like integrity, trustworthiness, respect, empathy,
responsibility and commitmentall those sorts of things.
Okay, now, in july 2024, whichis only less than a year ago,
forbes magazine published anarticle that said brands should
(25:23):
choose core values that supporttheir purpose, turn them into
catchy phrases that their staffcan remember, change them
constantly so that they'reinfluencing the culture and the
actions.
And for number four, theyshould stand by their core
values.
Now, if that's true and I don'tthink it is but if that's true,
(25:43):
if we went to any of thosebrands and took a random member
of staff and said, can you justremind us what the company
values are?
Most of them would have no idea.
Jeremy Blake (25:54):
Well, my follow up question would then be can you
tell me what you're doing tostand by them?
Absolutely right.
What are you doing?
What are you doing to that?
Have you heard Jane Fonda'sspeech?
No, that she did.
So she does a very politicalspeech at the SAG Awards I think
they're called SAG ScreenActors Guild.
Yeah, that's it.
It's very good.
You should watch it.
It's just been cut up into asection now where she says, by
(26:18):
the way, where she says by theway, being woke just means you
care about other people?
yeah, and she talks about actors.
Core role is to be empathetic,to play somebody evil, to at
least have the empathy for them,to display them and the actors
if they're taking the jobseriously, are teaching human
beings how to be empathetic.
I found that very interesting.
It's quite a rallying cry whichconnects to what your episode
(26:39):
is on here, that we have to dostuff about this.
You can't just cut stuff.
Yeah, just have a listen tothat.
I think you'll find thatintriguing any listener.
Just google and look up JaneFonda's recent speech.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
It's very, very powerful thank you for listening
to the reality of business AtReality Training.
We believe in training that'snot just informative but
transformative.
With over 20 years ofexperience, we've honed our
approach to deliver real,measurable change.
(27:13):
See what we can do for yourbusiness at realitytrainingcom
at realitytrainingcom.
Bob Morrell (27:27):
Well, my last thing on this is that let's imagine,
in four years, eight years' time, different government less
passionate about these things,are these programmes going to
suddenly re-emerge in thesecompanies because the zeitgeist
changes and you think, oh, webetter do something to show that
we are diverse, fair andinclusive.
(27:47):
How cynical is that that youwill simply move Press the
switch on again with politicalwind, yeah, and I think that
that also denigrates any idea ofwhat a value might be where
you're saying well, this is howwe work and how we live.
So that comes back to one ofthe questions I asked you at the
(28:08):
beginning in that interview doyou think it's possible to
humanize corporations?
Is that why they have values tosay?
If this corporation was aperson, these are the values
they would live by?
Do you think that's why they doit?
Do you think that's possible todo it?
Jeremy Blake (28:26):
I think and I'm going to answer it in a long way
If you go back to workers'rights and workers needing
better conditions of in afactory, if you like and things
start to evolve, you then havesome industrialists, stroke
entrepreneurs, who decide how weshould treat the worker.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
And.
Jeremy Blake (28:53):
I think that's where this starts.
So if you look at the idealismof perhaps an enlightened person
, so if you think of sped andlewis who creates john lewis, he
decides that, written into itsvery creed, the workers will not
be workers, they'll be partners.
There are laws about how muchmore money somebody can earn.
(29:15):
That is a an entrepreneur witha socialist set of values.
Bob Morrell (29:21):
Which goes completely against the current
times we're in.
Jeremy Blake (29:24):
It does, but that bizarrely that is a socialist
enterprise.
Bob Morrell (29:30):
Yes.
Jeremy Blake (29:31):
And continues to this day under great strain.
But I think that's where itstarts.
So I believe there was anidealism in those early pioneers
who decided to set in stone,quite literally, the values and
wished the workers, the partners, whoever they were, the factory
people, we will behavedifferently.
(29:52):
So I think it came out of atime of gross neglect and awful
conditions to a chance of youknow an increasing standards of
living started to improve socialhousing, water, you know all of
that stuff, and I think some ofthose early people did put them
in stone.
So coming back to your question, do you believe it's possible
to humanize?
(30:12):
I think if enough people areexcited to behave in a certain
way, then I believe at least youcan have the right level of
integrity across a workforce.
But I think all the otherthings become harder and harder.
Bob Morrell (30:30):
I also.
I'm thinking about somethingjust to finish.
One of our recent podcaststhat's been very popular is
talking about conferences andsales conferences.
Imagine doing a conference overthe next two or three years
where you go onto the stage infront of all your staff and you
say let's talk about our valuesand how we act as a company.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
How could a senior person say that with a straight
face.
Now, how could they say that?
Bob Morrell (30:57):
How could they say look, this is a really important
value for us and this is howmuch we value you.
Well, what about the personwho's sitting there thinking I'm
not sure you do value mebecause you took out something
that was a really important partof validating me as a human.
That's going to bite peopleover time and I think it's
really, really sad.
Anyway, we've had a good debateon this.
(31:19):
We will come back to this, yeahI'm thinking of.
Jeremy Blake (31:22):
Do you remember, in our kitchen, the other day we
all had the meeting.
We were talking about chocolateand we talked about bourneville
sure cabaret and you know theyeah, but bourneville, for
example, that's a value.
We will upgrade the conditionsof you so that you living in
much more comfortablesurroundings, so you're happier
to work, so these kind of thingsit's.
It's almost like a timeline ofprogression.
(31:42):
Now people have the housing,have the thing they want to be
treated, treated betterunderstood and um, yeah, it's
very complicated but veryintriguing.
Bob Morrell (31:53):
Well, we will return to the subject to company
values, because it'd be quiteinteresting if some of the
values change to the point ofit'd be quite interesting if
some of the values change to thepoint of you know they might
change some of those words youknow our values are work hard.
Our values are give useverything.
Our values are don't rock theboat, don't be unusual, don't be
(32:13):
different.
Our values are just do theright thing at the right time.
Our values are be well managed.
You know something reallycommand and control orientated.
Jeremy Blake (32:24):
That would be awful I think also the joke of
it is some people's values aredeny everything well absolutely
right I once met a chap who,when I challenged him and this
was something connected to mywife's employment he said if you
say anything, I'll deny it tillI'm blue in the face.
I will continue to deny and Iwill never admit it.
And he told me.
He said that's how I live mylife.
Bob Morrell (32:45):
You as the ceo earlier was very, very ably,
yeah, fighting this.
But the point is yeah, how canany of them honestly say that
this is anything other than apolitical choice?
Jeremy Blake (32:56):
it just is well, it's political and zeitgeist so
there's there's obviously abelief that enough people won't
mind, whether they're yourcustomers or your employees.
But again, who's making thedecision?
Bob Morrell (33:12):
You know that's the point A good debate.
We will return to this atanother point soon.
Jeremy Blake (33:16):
Thank you for listening and we'll see you on
another reality of business verysoon and don't forget, you can
always work on your values,listener, that's what you're
fully in control of.
For an optimistic end, notecheers for tuning in.
Thank you.
Hi and welcome to Business on the Radio and today
I'm joined by Mr Jeremy Black,who is the CEO of JT Gold, one
of the major investment banks inthe city.
He's joining us today to answerquestions about the scaling
(00:23):
back of his bank's worldwidediversity, equity and inclusion
program.
Welcome to the show, mr Black,good morning.
For the last few years, I readthat your organization has had
an extensive series of DEIprograms which, according to one
(00:45):
of the press releases I read onyour website, has greatly
improved the diversity of thepool of talent that you're
working with.
Why have you scaled back thisprogram?
In fact, in some places,cancelled it completely?
Jeremy Blake (00:58):
Well, that's interesting to say that it's
greatly improved.
I'm not quite sure where you'veread that, and this is really
one of the key challenges ofmeasuring if it has any impact
at all.
What's so important?
You've talked about recruitment.
What's so important is we havea rigorous recruitment policy
where the best people for thejob are recruited, and I would
(01:20):
like to point out straight awayand, if I may, regardless of
colour, race, gender or anything, we are open to anybody working
at the bank and we always havebeen, since it was founded.
Granted.
Bob Morrell (01:32):
So, in terms of cutting back this programme
which, as I say, has beenrunning for several years now,
was this a financial decision, acultural one, or something else
, one or something else Not atall and I say not at all against
my financial decision.
Jeremy Blake (01:50):
It's a decision based on a number of the key
stakeholders I've talked towhere there isn't really any
demonstrable difference.
We are ethical in our core aspeople at the bank and by
actually having a separatepolicy with various programs
that were running, there was nodirect link that could be made.
And we need to considershareholder value.
Of course we do, and at thesame time, I'm not getting
(02:12):
people banging on my door,beating a path to me saying we
don't have the right people here.
So I find this an interestingdebate.
Bob Morrell (02:21):
So there was no external pressure on you to
scale back these programs.
External pressure to scale back?
Well, I mean, we know for afact that Pepsi, GM, Google,
Disney, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citigroup have
all cancelled or scaled backtheir DEI programs.
So you're saying there's noexternal pressure on you?
Jeremy Blake (02:43):
to remove those programs.
Bob Morrell (02:44):
I think it's just interesting that there must be a
number of a sort of commoncurrency of ideas and thinking
around, this Nothing to do withthe fact that lots of these
organizations have contractswith the American government.
Jeremy Blake (02:54):
Well, I would say that it's a thing of our time,
or perhaps it was a thing ofthat time, Perhaps it was a.
You know, there have been manytrends.
Even in my short tenure here atthe bank, there's been many
trends and focuses and thingscome and go and I think it's
important to recognize thisdoesn't in any way change our
characters and the way we treatpeople.
Bob Morrell (03:16):
That has always been imperative, but that's a
really good point that you'vemade and I want to ask you about
that no-transcript there's anypolitical pressure in any way.
(03:55):
That's led to this choice.
Jeremy Blake (03:57):
Look, when you talk about political pressure,
we are in charge of individuals'money.
We're also in charge oforganizations' money.
We're also in charge of publicsector money.
We have such a vast amount ofpeople when you talk about
pressure.
Bob Morrell (04:10):
Our job is to return profit on the funds that
we are tasked to manage, so sothis is completely separate well
that what you're saying iscompletely separate to this
point, because you, for the lastfew years, as many of your uh
your colleagues in differentorganizations have done, have
been running successful DEIprograms which have broadened
(04:31):
the breadth and the empathytowards different types of
employee and all of a suddenthese have been taken away.
So if they're taken away, areyou replacing what you might
term traditional DEI effortswith a different approach to
fostering inclusion?
Jeremy Blake (04:50):
So it depends what area of the business you wish
to discuss.
So you've started withrecruitment.
We are incredibly careful overgetting the right person to fit
into the bank and we arecompletely open to any faith,
color, creed, gender persuasion,whatever.
That's never changed.
I don't need anyone to give mea policy to be human.
Bob Morrell (05:12):
Thank you, one of your company's values is a
commitment to integrity andfairness.
Yes, integrity and fairness.
How do you feel that removal ofDE programs, which are all
about, let's be honest, equity,fairness how do you feel that
that squares with your companyvalue?
Are you going to remove that asa value now?
Jeremy Blake (05:32):
you see you're, you're latching on to something
that you've clearly picked up onyour research, but I want to go
back to a point that you justraised.
A second, no, no, I want you toanswer that point?
Bob Morrell (05:41):
your value is integrity and fairness.
Are you saying now that youdon't need to be as fair because
that program is no longerrelevant, because politically
it's uncomfortable?
Jeremy Blake (06:04):
or been under question.
You're questioning it becauseof the removal of the programs.
You're trying to make aconnection between the removal
of a program which you say hasbeen massively successful I
don't know where you're gettingthat.
We know the success of our ownprograms and at the same time
you're trying to make thisconnection that we're now less
human, less fair and so on.
And it really doesn't.
Bob Morrell (06:22):
Well, actually, to be fair, Mr Black, we know that
these things are successfulbecause for the past 10 years,
every single major corporationhas run these things
successfully and then, literallywithin a few months of a new
government being sworn intoAmerica, they've all been cut or
hugely scaled back.
Now I want to move to one otherquestion your company values
(06:42):
about the way you deal with yourclients and the way you operate
with superb excellence, and allthese sorts of things.
Do you think it's possible tohumanize a corporation which,
after all, is many humans?
Do you think it's possible tocreate values which actually are
humanizing something whichisn't actually real?
Jeremy Blake (07:05):
values which actually are humanizing
something which isn't actuallyreal.
No, I don't.
And at the same time, I thinkwe could even argue that company
values was a trend for a periodof time.
Having said that, the foundersof our bank and the founders of
many corporations talked aboutvalues and the way to treat
people.
If you're in a better positionthan someone else, you should
look after people.
So I'm not suggesting it needsto be written or printed, but
(07:28):
now that we've got them, there'sno harm reinforcing them.
But I don't believe they can behumanized.
But what we can do in ourrecruitment is look for people
with these skills, as I've saidbefore, without any need to hold
up a torch to make sure that weare being diverse with our
equity and inclusion.
We are.
We don't need to necessarilyrun these programs to carry on
(07:52):
this behavior.
Bob Morrell (07:55):
So actually what you're saying is that these
values are largely, to everyonewho reads them, meaningless.
Jeremy Blake (08:03):
No, I'm not saying that.
You've just said that.
What I'm saying is that webegan with them.
Bob Morrell (08:06):
You've just said that by scaling back these
things, you don't necessarilyneed them, which, when we talk
about things like integrity andfairness, if that's a value,
that's something that you liveby, that's something that you
stand for, you don't stand forit enough to be able to be
diverse to be fair to people andto include people in your
(08:29):
organization to the extent thatyou did before.
Jeremy Blake (08:30):
So these are your words.
You've tried to make aconnection throughout this
interview where you're sayingit's politically motivated.
You're now trying to make aconnection between dropping the
diversity and inclusion programswith a connection to our values
.
These are separate.
Our values are our values and ahuman's values.
We don't need people to tell ushow to do that, and I think
that's where this trend perhapshas come up against its problems
.
So isn't it interesting?
Bob Morrell (08:51):
that we're not the only one.
We have to leave it there, mrBlack, but I suppose it'll come
down to customers whether theydecide whether or not there's a
connection between these things.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
But anyway, thank you for your time.
Bob Morrell (09:01):
Thank you.
Jeremy Blake (09:33):
Well, you're listening to the Reality of
Business.
Thank you for selecting thisand making it something that you
get pleasure from listening.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blake,and there's your host, Bobby
Morrell.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blake,and there's your host, Bobby
Morrell.
So you've probably guessed fromthe sketch that this episode is
about diversity, equity,inclusion and a little bit more.
So, Bob, do you want to expandon what's led us to want to do
(09:54):
this?
Bob Morrell (09:58):
Well, there's been so much commentary recently
about what's happening.
So ever since the inaugurationand in fact even before the
inauguration, there's been hugecontroversy, and that's because
major corporations, like manythat were mentioned in the
interview so we're talking aboutPepsi, gm, google, disney, ge,
intel, we're also looking atmajor investment banks and other
(10:19):
major corporations are allscaling back their DEI programs
or initiatives or things thatthey did to make sure that they
had a diverse workforce, thatthey were fair to everyone and
they were inclusive when it cameto recruitment and integration
and collaboration.
And these DEI programs, as Isaid, in many cases have been
(10:44):
running for years and almostovernight they've been cancelled
or hugely scaled back.
Now in some cases they haven't.
Interestingly, appleshareholders voted against
banning the DEI initiatives, butinteresting that they were
asked that question Shall we banthese DEI initiatives?
So, even Apple and I think it'salso fair to say that not all
(11:05):
companies are abandoning DEIinitiatives, but many of the
biggest are, and some peoplehave said well, that's because
they have huge contracts withthe government and the US
government are putting thesemessages out there and then, in
fact, internally within thegovernment, they're scaling back
these things and they expecttheir suppliers or the people
(11:27):
who provide services to them todo the same, and a lot of
organizations, it seems, havefound it very easy to reach the
decision to cut these programs.
And we just thought it'd beworth having a debate about that
, because I've heard lots ofdebates on programs and looked
in various periodicals and alsoin other podcasts about where
(11:50):
this sudden trend which, let'sbe honest, is a political thing
where this trend has come fromand how quickly it's been
enacted, but also how this alsofeeds into this thing which
we've covered quite a few timeson the podcast company values.
If you have a company valueabout empathy or about caring or
(12:13):
about trust or aboutresponsibility or anything which
opens the metaphorical arms ofthe organization to everybody on
earth, how does that valuesquare with this sort of action,
which is clearly coming from avery particular political
(12:33):
perspective, and I think it'sworth?
Jeremy Blake (12:35):
debating.
One of the things I thoughtwhen and it was one of our
clients when we turned up and wewere there one day and there
was some of this diversity workgoing on what I sort of squared
in my head was this is morepowerful than words on a wall
saying what their values are,because they're actually doing
something about it and they weretalking about recruitment, they
(12:56):
were talking about gender.
This was at the time of thepronoun debate debate that you
know people choosing to statehow they wish to be addressed
and there were lots of peoplewho just didn't know anything
about this, and so it was a hugeleveling level of education
taking place in the minds of thepeople who are in that workshop
.
And then someone said, oh no,no, we have someone who does
(13:17):
this.
And I thought, well, so manypeople wouldn't know this.
So it's kind of forming into aquestion to ask you when you are
aligning the two, like thevalues.
In my mind, a DEI program wasthe definitive creation of
something real to try to educatepeople and improve a company's
(13:41):
balance, if you like.
Are you saying in your openingaddress where you're listing
these companies, are you sayingthat they no longer the vast
majority, no longer make thatconnection, which is why they've
cut it?
Bob Morrell (13:52):
they don't think that you have to have a tangible
program to run I think they domake that connection, but I
think they've realized that itis not in their interest to
explicitly say so by running aprogram, and so they've cut it
to be in step with the currentzeitgeist.
Jeremy Blake (14:12):
So I use yeah, and that's what's interesting
zeitgeist.
So when you talked, in thesketch you talked about
political alignment.
This is a closed question.
Do you believe that largecorporations believe that if
they continue them, thegovernment of their country, or
some of the countries theyoperate in, would look at them
(14:32):
less favorably?
Bob Morrell (14:34):
This is the question.
Now I've got a few stats here,because the four pillars of DEI
and you've already mentioned oneof them are education, empathy,
engagement and accountability.
So I suppose what you're sayingis that the world has changed
in the last 30, 40 years and asan organization, we need to
(14:55):
recognize that fact and makesure that we are Now.
That's another perspective.
You could just say that surelywe've moved on to the point
where we don't need to educatepeople and talk about empathy,
(15:15):
but maybe we do.
Jeremy Blake (15:17):
I immediately, from my perspective, say we do,
because I think so many peopledon't understand it.
No, not everyone lives in anivory tower, but people come
from different backgrounds thatare so diverse they often have
no idea of how another humanbeing lives.
Bob Morrell (15:31):
No.
Jeremy Blake (15:32):
Or what they've had to go through to arrive
somewhere, and so I've alwaysthought that the education
allows people who've perhaps leda very secular existence to go
gosh.
Okay, ah, I had no idea.
So I think that pillar ofeducation has immediately been
lost if we're not educating,because how many people have the
self-motivation to self-educatethemselves on this topic?
Bob Morrell (16:02):
Exactly the point I was going to make, which is so
akin to that, is that if it werethe case that we as a society
are so advanced and educated nowthat we no longer need these
programs, wouldn't that bewonderful?
But the reason they're beingcut is because of a political
and public backlash that thesecompanies are afraid of.
That's the reason In terms ofintegrity.
That's what's so shameful aboutit that these brands, who have
(16:26):
these values that they purportto live by, but then, within a
month or two, think I thinkwe'll just cut the DEI because
it doesn't quite fit.
Well, hang on a minute.
What are you talking about?
Because where's the empathy?
Where's the engagement?
Because the reason you have DEIprograms presumably is because
we haven't got to that point insociety where we're educated.
(16:47):
We still do need that.
We still need people tounderstand and I've got a
definition here of what it gives.
It ensures that everyone in thediverse workforce feels
involved, valued, respected,treated fairly and integrated
into the company culture.
Who can argue with that as anobjective?
No, it's great Think about theother side of those words
(17:21):
Uninvolved, undervalueddisrespected, treated unfairly.
No, it's great.
Jeremy Blake (17:25):
And you posed it as a question, I think aligned
to education human beings, oftenthrough their parenting and
upbringing, many people can'thelp but form a bias.
It's not really genetic, it'smore like learnt behavior.
That you were told this so manytimes and if you think of a
topic like racism.
(17:46):
You and I used to talk aboutthe terre blanche documentary.
This who?
Yes, yes and he couldn't see itany other way.
He'd been born a racist, raiseda racism nick broomfield trying
to ask him very basic questionsand he just couldn't see beyond
it.
So therefore, unless youreplace a bias with some level
of education, the bias biasremains Absolutely right.
(18:09):
When we come into recruitment,for example, if somebody is
looking for a certain stereotypethat is more akin to them,
they're more likely to employthem because they look for it,
and once they found it, they'llrely on the rest of the
interview to try to reinforcethe existing bias and go.
Bob Morrell (18:24):
I think you'll fit in here, you know, but isn't
that awful that the newgovernment coming in have made
people think that theirperspective is that DEI has gone
too far and things are toodiverse and too inclusive and
too fair, even on the most basiclevel.
We're being far too fair towomen.
(18:44):
Now what?
This is the point about this?
This is purely a politicalperspective from a very, very,
I'm afraid, misogynistic, oldfashioned, racist perspective
and homophobic and everythingelse.
Ok, it's all coming in fromthat political side and it's
(19:05):
damaging something which wasworking really well, and it's
also done for financial reasons.
You're not just doing it fromthe good of your heart.
We'll come on to that in aminute.
But I've got another couple oftwo diverse stats that you'll
like, well, one you won't like.
So, according to a survey doneby personnel today on their
(19:26):
website, 20% of Britons supportthis policy of scaling back DEI.
So that's what we're dealingwith.
We're dealing with a fifthbroadly of people who think,
yeah, I didn't see the point ofdoing those things.
Jeremy Blake (19:38):
Are we now extending that into again a
political hot potato of Brexitand Brexiteer?
You could say that you couldsay that that isolationism,
island mentality Possibly.
That's still quite a high stat.
Bob Morrell (19:51):
I thought it's one in five people it's not, it is,
but the good news is and this isone thing that gave me a great
relief the reason this isn'tquite so acute in the uk is
because the uk already hasworld-leading legislation in the
form of the 2010 Equality Act,which actually puts in law lots
(20:15):
of the things that these DEIprograms talk about.
So we are, as a country,further ahead legally on these
things than many other countrieswho don't have anything like
that.
So that is good.
Now, I did read one articlewhich I thought was interesting
from the London Business School.
They were saying that perhapsthis move will lead to better
initiatives, not fewer.
(20:36):
So you think, well, we'rescaling back DEI because it's
just what we need to do for PRpoints of view.
Let's think of something betterwe can do, which we'll call it
something else, and it might bemore effective.
Now I'd like to think that'strue, but these are companies.
Jeremy, what does the DEIprogram cost?
Every year, it costs us 50,000.
Well, that's easy money.
(20:57):
We'll just cancel it.
Easy money, we'll just cancelit.
And I just think that there'ssomething we have to think about
the financial side.
Now I'm going to give you a bitof background on that, because
yesterday I went into LinkedInand I asked my thousands of
connections on there to give mea comment on this subject, to
(21:17):
see if we could, you know, seewhat's going on in the world out
there, and I had a veryinteresting perspective from a
chap who you will remember, alexCopley.
We won't say where he works.
He's someone we know.
We've worked with him a fewtimes and he's made a very good
point here.
He says all businessinitiatives, however far removed
(21:38):
they might seem, exist with onesole purpose to help return
money to the shareholders.
So a good DEI program attractsstronger talent, more cash to
shareholders, clearly definedcompany values, more efficient
collaborative organizations,more cash for shareholders, but
none of these things are doneout of the goodness of anybody's
heart.
Recently, it seems that anybodythat does business with the us
(22:02):
government is scaling back well,why it now impacts the money
they can return to theirshareholders.
It might seem cold, but it'sthe reality.
Hoping for a shout out on thepodcast well, thanks, alex,
you've got that that's really,really intriguing, isn't it?
Jeremy Blake (22:17):
and what's very positive about that is if you
got hold of a company that weredebating the cutting or scaling
back and you said now look,you've got to remember that this
initiative means that you do itto the very best level, which
means that you're more likely tohave the right teams who can
speak to customers andinternally collaborate, which
means you're going to sell moreand return shareholder value.
(22:38):
It's a very good point, love it.
Bob Morrell (22:39):
Yeah, so that's the other side of it.
But then, if that's true, ifeverything you do is to return
profits, essentially, when youlook at your values, these are
our values.
Why are you bothering with them?
Why do you need to say any ofthat?
Jeremy Blake (22:54):
Well, what we seem to have is, if we remove the
DEI program, we go back towriting on a wall.
You know values on a wall, andI say a wall without joking.
There are a number of customerswho have them on a wall, and
sometimes the wall is atreception, sometimes it's a
corridor.
But if there's no programlinked to those values where
(23:15):
people actually understand whatthat means and how to embody it
and what you know, that's a word.
What we do with that inrecruitment is means we do this,
embody it and what you know,that's a word.
What we do with that inrecruitment is means we do this,
this and this and let's teachyou about it.
No, no, and I think that'swhere it falls down hugely,
doesn't?
well how is someone meant toinfer the point I'd like to get
to, which is a bit political,but well, it is political, is I?
I was reading about reagan andsort of what he did in the 80s
(23:41):
and Maggie and these sorts oftwo tribes, if you like, this
concept of meritocracy that ifyou work hard in life, then you
might climb a ladder and getyour just rewards.
Yeah, so Reaganism was a lot ofthat.
Bob Morrell (23:59):
That's 40 or 50 years ago, where the vast
majority of the workforce weremen, just on the most simplistic
level.
So the world's completelyshifted now.
Jeremy Blake (24:08):
Well, and this is my point, if you think of you
know, imagine saying that tosomebody being displaced from
Yemen, palestine, africa, europe, poland, ukraine hey, do you
not know about meritocracy, mate?
Just work hard and you'llchange your situation.
I think that that concept andhow he got in was often saying
(24:29):
do you want your neighbor beinglazy?
And all of these kind ofspeeches.
He did, but I think the conceptof a meritocracy now is hugely
changed and I think that thereare people who've never actually
had to work that hard and havehad things who still believe
that if somebody works hard, wecan reward them and we hold the
(24:50):
power to reward.
But I think it's become muchmore complicated to just come
out with a standard saying well,if you work hard, you'll
probably get that.
I think that's much harder inthe world we live in today today
.
Bob Morrell (25:02):
Well, the most common company values are things
like integrity, trustworthiness, respect, empathy,
responsibility and commitmentall those sorts of things.
Okay, now, in july 2024, whichis only less than a year ago,
forbes magazine published anarticle that said brands should
(25:23):
choose core values that supporttheir purpose, turn them into
catchy phrases that their staffcan remember, change them
constantly so that they'reinfluencing the culture and the
actions.
And for number four, theyshould stand by their core
values.
Now, if that's true and I don'tthink it is but if that's true,
(25:43):
if we went to any of thosebrands and took a random member
of staff and said, can you justremind us what the company
values are?
Most of them would have no idea.
Jeremy Blake (25:54):
Well, my follow up question would then be can you
tell me what you're doing tostand by them?
Absolutely right.
What are you doing?
What are you doing to that?
Have you heard Jane Fonda'sspeech?
No, that she did.
So she does a very politicalspeech at the SAG Awards I think
they're called SAG ScreenActors Guild.
Yeah, that's it.
It's very good.
You should watch it.
It's just been cut up into asection now where she says, by
(26:18):
the way, where she says by theway, being woke just means you
care about other people?
yeah, and she talks about actors.
Core role is to be empathetic,to play somebody evil, to at
least have the empathy for them,to display them and the actors
if they're taking the jobseriously, are teaching human
beings how to be empathetic.
I found that very interesting.
It's quite a rallying cry whichconnects to what your episode
(26:39):
is on here, that we have to dostuff about this.
You can't just cut stuff.
Yeah, just have a listen tothat.
I think you'll find thatintriguing any listener.
Just google and look up JaneFonda's recent speech.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
It's very, very powerful thank you for listening
to the reality of business AtReality Training.
We believe in training that'snot just informative but
transformative.
With over 20 years ofexperience, we've honed our
approach to deliver real,measurable change.
(27:13):
See what we can do for yourbusiness at realitytrainingcom
at realitytrainingcom.
Bob Morrell (27:27):
Well, my last thing on this is that let's imagine,
in four years, eight years' time, different government less
passionate about these things,are these programmes going to
suddenly re-emerge in thesecompanies because the zeitgeist
changes and you think, oh, webetter do something to show that
we are diverse, fair andinclusive.
(27:47):
How cynical is that that youwill simply move Press the
switch on again with politicalwind, yeah, and I think that
that also denigrates any idea ofwhat a value might be where
you're saying well, this is howwe work and how we live.
So that comes back to one ofthe questions I asked you at the
(28:08):
beginning in that interview doyou think it's possible to
humanize corporations?
Is that why they have values tosay?
If this corporation was aperson, these are the values
they would live by?
Do you think that's why they doit?
Do you think that's possible todo it?
Jeremy Blake (28:26):
I think and I'm going to answer it in a long way
If you go back to workers'rights and workers needing
better conditions of in afactory, if you like and things
start to evolve, you then havesome industrialists, stroke
entrepreneurs, who decide how weshould treat the worker.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
And.
Jeremy Blake (28:53):
I think that's where this starts.
So if you look at the idealismof perhaps an enlightened person
, so if you think of sped andlewis who creates john lewis, he
decides that, written into itsvery creed, the workers will not
be workers, they'll be partners.
There are laws about how muchmore money somebody can earn.
(29:15):
That is a an entrepreneur witha socialist set of values.
Bob Morrell (29:21):
Which goes completely against the current
times we're in.
Jeremy Blake (29:24):
It does, but that bizarrely that is a socialist
enterprise.
Bob Morrell (29:30):
Yes.
Jeremy Blake (29:31):
And continues to this day under great strain.
But I think that's where itstarts.
So I believe there was anidealism in those early pioneers
who decided to set in stone,quite literally, the values and
wished the workers, the partners, whoever they were, the factory
people, we will behavedifferently.
(29:52):
So I think it came out of atime of gross neglect and awful
conditions to a chance of youknow an increasing standards of
living started to improve socialhousing, water, you know all of
that stuff, and I think some ofthose early people did put them
in stone.
So coming back to your question, do you believe it's possible
to humanize?
(30:12):
I think if enough people areexcited to behave in a certain
way, then I believe at least youcan have the right level of
integrity across a workforce.
But I think all the otherthings become harder and harder.
Bob Morrell (30:30):
I also.
I'm thinking about somethingjust to finish.
One of our recent podcaststhat's been very popular is
talking about conferences andsales conferences.
Imagine doing a conference overthe next two or three years
where you go onto the stage infront of all your staff and you
say let's talk about our valuesand how we act as a company.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
How could a senior person say that with a straight
face.
Now, how could they say that?
Bob Morrell (30:57):
How could they say look, this is a really important
value for us and this is howmuch we value you.
Well, what about the personwho's sitting there thinking I'm
not sure you do value mebecause you took out something
that was a really important partof validating me as a human.
That's going to bite peopleover time and I think it's
really, really sad.
Anyway, we've had a good debateon this.
(31:19):
We will come back to this, yeahI'm thinking of.
Jeremy Blake (31:22):
Do you remember, in our kitchen, the other day we
all had the meeting.
We were talking about chocolateand we talked about bourneville
sure cabaret and you know theyeah, but bourneville, for
example, that's a value.
We will upgrade the conditionsof you so that you living in
much more comfortablesurroundings, so you're happier
to work, so these kind of thingsit's.
It's almost like a timeline ofprogression.
(31:42):
Now people have the housing,have the thing they want to be
treated, treated betterunderstood and um, yeah, it's
very complicated but veryintriguing.
Bob Morrell (31:53):
Well, we will return to the subject to company
values, because it'd be quiteinteresting if some of the
values change to the point ofit'd be quite interesting if
some of the values change to thepoint of you know they might
change some of those words youknow our values are work hard.
Our values are give useverything.
Our values are don't rock theboat, don't be unusual, don't be
(32:13):
different.
Our values are just do theright thing at the right time.
Our values are be well managed.
You know something reallycommand and control orientated.
Jeremy Blake (32:24):
That would be awful I think also the joke of
it is some people's values aredeny everything well absolutely
right I once met a chap who,when I challenged him and this
was something connected to mywife's employment he said if you
say anything, I'll deny it tillI'm blue in the face.
I will continue to deny and Iwill never admit it.
And he told me.
He said that's how I live mylife.
Bob Morrell (32:45):
You as the ceo earlier was very, very ably,
yeah, fighting this.
But the point is yeah, how canany of them honestly say that
this is anything other than apolitical choice?
Jeremy Blake (32:56):
it just is well, it's political and zeitgeist so
there's there's obviously abelief that enough people won't
mind, whether they're yourcustomers or your employees.
But again, who's making thedecision?
Bob Morrell (33:12):
You know that's the point A good debate.
We will return to this atanother point soon.
Jeremy Blake (33:16):
Thank you for listening and we'll see you on
another reality of business verysoon and don't forget, you can
always work on your values,listener, that's what you're
fully in control of.
For an optimistic end, notecheers for tuning in.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!