August 1, 2024 • 42 mins
In this episode, Rev. Adrian Crum, associate pastor at Harvest OPC in Wyoming, MI sits down with two of his deacons, Lynne Hunter and Cameron Brown to talk about the why and how of Harvest's newly constructed Elderly Committee or HARPs Group (Harvest Association of Retired Presbyterians.)
Lynne says, "Part of it was that we had, or have, a number of elderly folk that have no family and we were getting called in to help these people navigate murky waters. They could no longer live by themselves, and we were getting asked well, 'how can we help them?' And that's when we started exploring what we are supposed to do and what is our responsibility as deacons? And that was kind of some of the catalyst when we found that folder and started perusing through that and saying, okay, here's some good ideas, but it still doesn't give us the total answer. Now, we still don't have a total answer, but we're working on it."
Referenced in this episode:
Survey of Talents (created by Cameron Brown)
The Reformed Deacon Real World Cases: Be Proactive
If I Should Die (booklet Cameron refers to given out by David Haney)
Barnabus Foundation (Financial Planning available to all OPC members)
Committee on Diaconal Ministries Summits
Contact Lynne Hunter
Contact Cameron Brown
Contact Rev. Adrian Crum
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cameron Brown (00:00):
So it's not specifically for the committee
or the deacons to come up with acare or the need, but we are
here to also, if we can't meetthe need, make the connection to
somebody else who can, and Ithink that's very powerful and
that's where we want to go as abody of Christ.
We're brothers and sisters.
We want to be able to have thatkind of community.
(00:23):
We want to be able to have thatkind of community.
David Nakhla (00:24):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon.
A casual conversation withtopics specifically designed to
help local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
Adrian Crum (00:49):
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
My name is Adrian Crum.
I'm a pastor at HarvestOrthodox Presbyterian Church in
the greater Grand Rapids,michigan area, and I'm so
grateful to serve on the OPC'sCommittee on Diaconal Ministries
and today we have the privilege, on the Reformed Deacon, of
welcoming Lynn Hunter andCameron Brown, two gentlemen
that I serve with.
They're deacons here at Harvestand we're going to be talking
today about our elderlycommittee here at Harvest.
(01:09):
It's a committee of our deaconsthat was established to help in
caring for those who aregrowing elderly in our community
, and Lynn, our deacon,referenced this committee on a
previous episode of the podcast.
If you are a listener to theReformed Deacon Podcast, that
episode was called Real WorldCases Be Proactive.
Be sure to go and take a listento that when you can, and
(01:29):
there's some excellent insightsin that episode.
I really recommend you listen.
So we thought it'd be reallyhelpful for us to explain more
about Harvest Elderly Committeeand talk a little bit about its
goals as well as work to serveour seasoned saints, deacons and
members alike, and weunderstand that the situations
that other OPC churches may bein, or any church that you're in
(01:50):
, may be a little different thanHarvest's situation, but we're
praying that some of theprinciples and some of the
things that we've learned wouldbe a benefit to you all.
So we see in Acts 6 that caringfor widows was actually the
very origin of the diaconaloffice.
And then Paul in 1 Timothy 5and James, chapter 127, places a
(02:11):
very, very high commitment oncaring for widows in a
congregation.
So I wanted to just hear alittle bit of the background
story and Lynn or Cam feel freeto take it away the background
story of why do we focus oncaring for the elderly at
Harvest and how are eldersinvolved for some of the deeper
spiritual aspects as well.
Cameron Brown (02:30):
So, as far as I'm concerned, in the past, I'm not
sure if there was a committeefocused on the elderly
specifically until, I believe,the middle of last year, which
was 2023.
It had come to our attentionthat we would need a specific
set of people to kind oforganize and figure out how we
(02:50):
can better shepherd the agingand elderly at church.
A few of the firstconversations that we had kind
of revolved around I don't knowif I want to say a holistic
approach, not necessarily forspiritual needs, but as far as
we were focused on end-of-lifecare, retirement, the many legal
(03:13):
things that aging and elderlypeople deal with, medicare,
social Security, how to navigatethose murky waters as they rely
on other benefits since they'renot receiving normal paycheck
from an employer that they mayhave used to work for.
So we had found back in the day, we had a folder that had a
(03:37):
bunch of resources in it and abunch of areas for somebody to
fill out.
Lynne Hunter (03:43):
It was Ken Vandermolen, and the folder
you're referencing was given tous by David Haney and it had to
do with willing and trust andmaking the OPC one of your
benefactors when you die Right.
Cameron Brown (04:01):
So we found that in church and realized we wanted
to revamp that and maybe comeup with our own way to kind of
rewrite it to be easier to workthrough with aging or elderly
folks.
That was a good starting point.
So more legalistic approach onwhere does an elderly person,
(04:21):
whether a widow or a couple, atharvest, where do they stand in
the real world?
How are they surviving and dothey need help checking the
boxes to make sure they're beingresponsible financially, caring
for their family?
Lynne Hunter (04:37):
Part of it was that we had, or have, a number
of elderly folk that have nofamily and we were getting
called in to help these peoplenavigate murky waters.
They could no longer live bythemselves.
And we were getting asked well,how can we help them?
(04:59):
And that's when we startedexploring what are we supposed
to, what is our responsibilityas deacons?
And that was kind of some ofthe catalyst when we found that
folder and started perusingthrough that and saying, okay,
here's some good ideas, but itstill doesn't give us the total
(05:19):
answer.
Now, we still don't have atotal answer, but we're working
on it.
Adrian Crum (05:24):
Good yeah, and I think it'll just be helpful for
our listeners to.
I think every church canprobably relate just about every
church can relate to this.
I'm new at Harvest in the lastthree years but our church is
about 30 years old and many ofour churches in the OPC are
getting to an older average age.
(05:44):
If you guys were to put a guesson a ratio, a percentage of the
congregation that is, let's say, over 65, what would you guess
is the 20% of our congregationof Communicate members of our
congregation.
Lynne Hunter (05:59):
let's classify it a little bit 20% of the
Communicate members of ourcongregation are over 65.
Adrian Crum (06:08):
So that's a pretty high number, one out of every
five, yeah.
Lynne Hunter (06:12):
If we used the congregation as a whole baptized
members and Communicatetogether, then it's 9%, but at
20% that means there is a fairnumber of our congregation that
is in that category and just soyou know, that number will
(06:35):
probably go up by another 3% to5% next year.
Adrian Crum (06:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So do you think of familymembers, let's say, who are not
members of Harvest?
As people, you would also,obviously, if someone is able to
depend on their familyscripturally speaking, we want
to have family members care forother family members, but if
there was a very hard situationof an elderly person, let's say,
(06:58):
who was related to a Harvestmember, how do you think about
that as deacons?
Lynne Hunter (07:03):
Let me understand your question Yep Harvest member
.
How do you think about that asdeacons?
Let me understand your question, Yep.
If I had a parent that was nota member of Harvest but I was
taking care of?
Them let's say I wasn't able totake care of them.
What would the deacons ofHarvest do?
Adrian Crum (07:22):
Is that kind of what your answer question is?
That's a great reformatting ofthe question.
I was thinking hypotheticallyany person who is connected
somehow to a person who's agingand they can't care for them.
How do deacons think aboutnon-members?
But your question is excellent,lynn.
Lynne Hunter (07:37):
I think we would.
In a certain sense, we think inthe same vein.
We take care of many peoplefrom outside our church, where
we help, and I think we wouldstep in and try to guide this
person or this family in thesame way.
(07:58):
And we have actually hadsimilar not quite the, but
similar situations where we'vehad people who have family
members that are not taking careof their elderly family members
and we have stepped in andtaken control of those
situations.
And that's part of where thiswhole committee, if you want to
(08:22):
call it, or basis of why did thedeacons at harvest look at it
comes from.
Because when you do this, it'sstepping into the whole thing
and you end up in some caseshaving to become a legal
guardian of that person, so itbecomes a tricky situation.
Adrian Crum (08:42):
Yeah, yeah, that would be very, very complicated.
So another question I had wasare all the people on this
committee caring for the elderlyharvest deacons, or do you have
non-deacons who are members atharvest serve in some way to
care for the elderly harvest?
Cameron Brown (09:00):
So this committee alone, obviously with the
amount of members we have andelderly, would not be able to be
sustainable in taking care ofthem solely for their needs.
So, where the committee wascreated, to give direction, to
find resources and to make theconnections within the church, I
(09:21):
think is a few of our maingoals.
We can go beyond that,obviously, with calling but,
like we just discussed,understanding the need in
Scripture tells us all of us,right away, I mean to seek help
from family first.
We're living in faith.
We are called to take care ofour mother and father right as
(09:45):
children, and so that's thefirst step is understanding
where they are in life and ifthey are a true widow.
I say true widow meaning theydon't have any family around
children or parents, obviously,for that matter.
If the church is their family,we are called to take them under
our care, which is difficult inwaters.
(10:07):
We need to figure out how towalk together.
But as far as who takes care ofthem, one thing I put together
recently, which Adrian and Lynnare aware of, is a quick survey
of talents throughout the church.
Survey of talents throughoutthe church.
(10:27):
This was a widespread surveyjust to collect interest and
talents from all the members atHarvest.
Upon receiving feedback, we hada good response and one of the
gifts, if you were, was caringfor the elderly.
So that gave me ability to seethe gifts within the church on a
broader scale, so not just inthe deacons or elder groups.
(10:50):
So if we are approached with aneed from an elderly in a
specific way, whether it's alittle bit of home care, we see
that right now with one of ourgreat members, one of our great
members.
But that was a way to give someoutreach and get some more
support from the congregationbecause obviously deacons were
(11:11):
all men, elders they're all menin the church.
If we are approached with a needfrom a female, if it's an
in-home care, we are asked totake care of some needs.
Obviously we would want afemale to be able to make that
connection.
We've seen that just worksbetter in this world to make it
more comfortable for everyone.
(11:32):
That just allowed us to thentake that group of people who
said their gift was caring forthe elderly.
I can shoot an email in theirdirection and say, hey, we were
approached with this need fromthis member, or it could be
somebody from the outside, as wediscussed as well, and would
you be willing, if you are socalled, to take care of that
person for a time being in anysort of way?
(11:55):
So it's not specifically for thecommittee or the deacons to
come up with a care or the need,but we are here to also, if we
can't meet the need, make theconnection to somebody else who
can, and I think that's verypowerful and that's where we
want to go as a body of Christ.
We're brothers and sisters.
We want to be able to have thatkind of community throughout
(12:20):
the whole church.
We don't want to isolate it tojust specific groups to do this,
and I think that's just goingto build God's kingdom even more
and help us to love each other.
But so, yeah, hopefully thatanswers the question a little
bit.
Adrian Crum (12:36):
Excellent.
Yeah, so 1 Timothy 5 has someof the principles that you
referenced.
I'm just going to read 1Timothy 5, 16.
It says if any believing womanhas relatives who are widows,
let her care for them.
Let the church not be burdened,so that it may care for those
who are truly widows.
I love the fact that the NewTestament assumes that there's
going to be multi-generations.
(12:56):
In the Bible we are not savedas individuals, but God saves us
and our grandparents and ourparents and our children.
So is this committee proactive?
Do you check in with those whoare over a certain age on a
rotation, or you just wait forthings to come to you when you
sense the needs arise?
Or is there some sort ofcombination of both?
Cameron Brown (13:18):
I feel like we're reactive, I would agree, and I
don't mean that in a bad way.
But if I said we were Mostly, Iwould say most of our elderly
congregation are a part of thatgroup which they go through
(13:51):
fellowship, bible study andprayer opportunities outside of
the church, so they're very wellconnected with brothers and
sisters in Christ.
What that means is a lot ofthose needs, loneliness,
questions they have couldpossibly be answered by who
they're surrounding themselveswith in that group, and that
(14:14):
does take the burden off thechurch right there and the
deacons, because maybe there'sthings that are being met and
prayers being answered withinthat group.
But I think, with the committeestarting, we wanted to try and
be more proactive.
We wanted to understand thecongregation and their needs and
how we could better equipourselves to handle those needs.
(14:38):
And those are things we'restill working through.
We're not going to be able toperfect this 100%.
I would say if we can even getto a passing rate of 70 or
something would be great, butevery need is different.
Something would be great, butevery need is different and with
each need we, under carefulconsideration, we pray that we
have the wisdom to be able toanswer to a call.
(15:01):
So the little things likechecking the boxes can help,
like getting a little brochuretogether to hand off to an
elderly who's got questionsabout Medicare.
That's great.
We can serve in those ways aswell.
That gets us partial of the waythere.
The committee was created tokind of weed through resources,
(15:23):
if I start going down that road.
We did a lot of research onlocal areas around West Michigan
that focuses on helping theaging population and we narrowed
that all the way down to onegroup Area Agencies on Aging
(15:44):
which is a West Michigan group,and they have all the resources
and I have introduced one of theI can't remember his name off
the top of my head, but Ibelieve he was a director there.
He came into one of the HARPSmeetings and I joined him and he
gave a brief presentation onwhat the agency does and then
(16:05):
after the meeting I wasapproached by some of the folks
there that, yeah, they call meevery week making sure I know
when to sign up for Medicare orSocial Security.
I'm not familiar with any ofthat right now.
I pray that I might make itthere.
But yeah, the stuff is known butit also might not be for some
(16:26):
of those out there who are justapproaching that age.
So those are some of the thingswe want to do to be proactive.
So those are some of the thingswe want to do to be proactive,
having the resources at hand sowe can readily give them out
when the questions are asked andthen continually, maybe bring
that resource in once a year todo the little 20 minute spiel on
(16:48):
what the agency does and howthey can help support, and I
think that stuff's important forthe church and I think it's,
yeah, as our community.
That's our duty and that's whatwe're trying to focus on.
Adrian Crum (17:02):
Thank you so much.
So let's say I'm kind ofputting myself in the shoes of a
listener.
They're thinking to themselveswow, harvest sounds very
organized and there's lots andlots of things happening because
it's a very large church.
How could you apply some of theprinciples of what you guys are
talking about to a congregation, let's imagine, of 40 people in
a rural area.
They have one deacon, maybe two, and they're thinking how do I
(17:31):
care for the four or fiveelderly people in our
congregation?
Do some of the things you'respeaking about apply to a
smaller congregation?
How could you help a deacon inthat context?
Cameron Brown (17:37):
Yeah, so I can imagine a smaller congregation
with, I'm just going to say, onedeacon.
So that's a lot of people.
Let's say half of them areelderly, that's 20 people coming
to one person to fulfill a lotof questions and needs.
That would be very overwhelming, at least to me.
(17:59):
Let's say that one deacon hasfour kids running around at home
under five.
Talk about stressful.
But I would encourage thatcongregation to do kind of what
I did as far as reaching out tothe congregation to figure out
kind of the gifts and talents wego back to that on how they can
(18:21):
help support each other.
That would give that deacon anopportunity to focus on a
specific group outreach to them.
Okay, you're good at caring forthe elderly.
I have this need.
How can you come alongside meand help me?
We talked about the scripturenot just being pinpointing
(18:41):
towards deacons or elders, butto all of followers of Christ.
That would be very hard, thatthat deacon would have to be a
little bit more outspoken,probably if it's just one of
them, otherwise it's going to bevery difficult for him to
navigate and communicate withall the people within their
(19:02):
church.
So outreach is important.
The pastor, elder if there's anelder, a couple elders could
walk alongside him to kind ofhelp navigate and make those
connections.
To kind of help navigate andmake those connections, our
deacons within our church.
(19:22):
I have my name and I have anumber of members underneath me
whether it's split upalphabetically, but we kind of
have an even amount of memberswithin the church that are
assigned to a deacon.
I could imagine a smallerchurch being okay.
I have split up into, let's say, a couple groups of five or so
and then you just mix match somemembers who might be
(19:42):
accountable for checking in withthat family and the deacon can
come alongside them, make surethey're making the connection,
ask that group have you reachedout to so-and-so?
I think it has to be a veryclose-knit family community.
I would assume it is with asmaller church, but yeah, with a
larger church like Harvest, wedo have to be a little bit more
(20:06):
structured, I feel likeOtherwise things could get a
little bit hairy.
Adrian Crum (20:10):
Excellent.
No, I think that's a reallyreally helpful answer.
Thank you, cam.
Do you have something else,lynn, you want to say?
Lynne Hunter (20:26):
Yeah, I would also suggest that this rural
congregation, the deacon, lookout further than his
congregation.
We're Presbyterian churchgovernment.
We start with the session whohas deacons serving with them in
a local congregation.
But that local congregationisn't an island sitting by
itself.
It is a member of a largercommunity called the Presbytery,
(20:50):
and in the OPC each Presbyteryhas a presbytery diaconate.
Some of them are structured alittle bit different but they're
all kind of heading toward thesame way.
The michigan ontario presbyteryworks where there's members of
(21:11):
different churches that servethe presbytery diaconate and
that deacon could in theory, orshould, look to that broader
church and then the broaderchurch, the presbytery diaconate
, and also look out further andgo to the denomination, the
Committee on Diaconal Ministries, and ask for more help or more
(21:35):
advice.
And so a single deacon shouldnever say, man, I don't know
what to do.
There should always be anotherchurch that he could look to.
So every church in Michiganshould be able to look out and
say, hey, who can I look to tohelp?
Our brothers in Canada can lookat all the churches the five or
(22:00):
six Canadian churches that wehave, and say how can we
navigate the system there?
The Canadian system is a littlebit different than the US
system, but don't feel likeyou're on an island by yourself
and have to conquer the problemby yourself.
Adrian Crum (22:17):
Very good.
No, that's excellent and a goodplug, lynn, for the work of our
committee, because one of thethings that we do is connect
deacons.
We train Presbyterialcommittees of deacons all around
the country.
We actually have a summit whatis that?
Every two or three years, wherewe will gather the committees
of presidenciaries and speakabout some of these issues.
(22:38):
How do we support localchurches that may not have a
large diaconate?
We just have to do it.
Yeah, that's exactly what I wasthinking.
I was thinking of a situationwhere someone and again, there's
a lot of good work ethic herein West Michigan at least, but I
think sometimes we can be veryproud to try to ask for any help
and so being willing to pressthrough and demonstrate that we
(23:01):
actually care enough to ask someof those hard questions and
then help people out in hardsituations.
So, cam and Lynn let's saysomeone has been listening to
this.
They're really, reallyappreciating some of the
practical advice that you'reoffering and they're thinking
man, I want to launch my ownelderly committee.
What would be three takeawaysfrom today's conversation?
How would you say these are thethree things that you need to
(23:23):
start doing to get an elderlysupport committee started?
Cameron Brown (23:29):
One.
I would start withunderstanding what we are called
to do in Scripture, and I wantto point to a passage that is
very relevant and well-known.
So, philippians 2, 3 through 8.
I think this could be even amodel for this type of committee
in your foundation.
(23:49):
So, philippians 2, 3 through 8,nothing from selfish ambition or
conceit, but in humility, countothers more significant than
yourselves.
So let each of you look notonly to his own interests but
also to the interests of others.
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus
, who, though he was in the formof God, did not count equality
(24:11):
with God a thing to be grasped,but emptied himself by taking
the form of a servant, which weare now called of being born in
likeness of men and being foundin human form.
He humbled himself by becomingobedient to the point of death,
even death on a cross, andunderstanding what we're being
(24:31):
called to do there, and it's allover throughout scripture, not
just there.
Talk about honoring your fatherand your mother, john 19, when
(24:54):
Jesus was on the cross, lookingdown at John, and just meditate
on to understand what they'recalled to do and how they are to
move forward in shepherding thecongregation in that way.
So that would be step onecreating a good foundation on
why you are doing what you'redoing.
Step two find people.
(25:15):
Lynn, do you have anything elsefor step one?
Maybe I like your step one.
Lynne Hunter (25:22):
Your step two find people.
But I would go to your otherdocument that you created, your
survey.
Find your congregation, who isyour congregation, what gifts
does your congregation have andhow can they help?
And then from that, find ifwe're a small congregation or
(25:47):
even a large congregation asours.
Find two or three people thatcan join or are willing to join
and help.
Don't take all the burden ofthe work on your diaconate.
Cameron Brown (26:03):
Yeah, I think, along with step two, not just
knowing the number and the ageof your congregation but getting
to know your congregation.
So that survey really helped inunderstanding what people were
called and are willing to do tohelp walk alongside that deacon
as this next resource and theresources that we had done
(26:27):
research on that could be thesecond part of step two.
But understanding yourcommunity outside of your church
, either, finding Christianresources, even non-Christian
resources, that help with agingand elderly folks, so within
your local community.
I think a little bit of workcan be done there to figure out
where you can send people to toanswer those basic questions,
(26:50):
which I wouldn't know anythingabout Social Security or
Medicare.
But there are professionals outthere who volunteer to do this
and that was the guy who came inand talked to our HARPS group.
He has dedicated his life tocommunicating with elderly
people to help them navigate allof those different options that
(27:11):
they have, and that deacon orthat church needs to figure out
what those resources are to beable to hand those reaching out
to the elderly, asking thequestions maybe not asking them
(27:34):
in a prodding way like theSocial Security phone would
assume for a really, really longtime and they are
well-developed Christians.
They know scripture, they knowwhere they're going at the end
of their life, Praise the Lord.
(27:56):
I'm not saying that's 100%always the case, but they are
very wise people.
So we just need to lightly askthe questions if they understand
, or just getting to know them.
We don't need to even ask themquestions about those things,
but kind of understanding.
I guess the first thing is howlong they've been a member at
(28:19):
the church.
Do they have family around?
What brought them to yourchurch?
What do you like about thechurch?
Those are just basic questionsthat can get you a communication
rolling in some sort ofrelationship where they might
look to you and reach back outto you if they do have a
question about something morepersonal.
(28:39):
So I think it needs to startthere, building the relationship
in step three with everybody inthe church.
Adrian Crum (28:45):
Let's say there is total familial breakdown in the
family.
Let's say the kids are notspeaking to their parents
anymore, but they're both in thesame church.
How would you help someone inthat situation?
Certainly, elders may need tobe involved in that, but if
there's relational breakdownbetween children and their
parents, does that somehowrelease the obligation to care
(29:08):
for parents?
Or how would you approach thatas deacons?
If someone says I don't eventalk to my parents anymore, but
they're in a really hardfinancial situation?
Cameron Brown (29:16):
We're talking to a very small fraction and that's
where it gets very hard and youget the families that are
disconnected or dysfunctionaland children that don't think
it's their responsibility, theirparents.
They probably say they shouldhave been able to figure this
out from the start and it's sadthat that happens.
But the church is then calledto step in, I would believe, to
(29:39):
take that burden off theparent's shoulders.
We know that it is from theblind man.
It is not because the parenthas sinned that the man was born
blind, but it was the will ofGod right so that he might come
to faith and see.
(30:00):
I think that's where we wouldstand is not to put any guilt on
the parents or the children,but there's a physical and
spiritual need that the churchneeds to fill and has been
called to fill.
So I don't think we would taskif the parents come to us and
say, yes, my child.
(30:21):
I'm assuming they're lostwithout faith at that point.
If they're Christians, maybethey need a little bit of
guiding and teaching.
That was more my question.
Adrian Crum (30:31):
Two members of your church.
They're both professing to beChristians, but through some
relational breakdown they arenot talking to each other
anymore.
Cameron Brown (30:42):
I said it was thorny From those two members in
the church are no longertalking.
That's right they don't.
They don't get the afternooncoffee invitation for grandma
anymore but the grandma and thein the son is at church together
yep, same church.
Adrian Crum (30:58):
I am sure some of you have seen this.
Lynne Hunter (31:00):
I've seen this thorny situation.
The church is still called tohelp both sides and there's two
aspects to the help.
And guess what?
The deacons do not get to throwthe spiritual aspect side over
the wall 100% to the elders.
The elders have to know aboutit.
(31:24):
The elders will probably beassisting, but the deacons will
still have to come in and helpon the physical side and the
spiritual side.
So Harvest conducts regularfamily visitation.
This one might have more thanregular family visitation.
This one might have monthly oreven weekly visitation, and so
(31:50):
it gets a little bit more tricky.
But on both sides, both eldersand deacons.
But if it's deacon-led, you'retrying to lead the two parties
back together because the callof the gospel doesn't allow us
to split the family.
The call of the gospel says hey, we love Jesus Christ, and if
(32:11):
we love Jesus Christ we have tolove our neighbor.
And if we love our neighborthen I have to love my father
and mother.
Cameron Brown (32:21):
You can't have one without the other.
Lynne Hunter (32:23):
Yeah, you can't divorce the two If you're going
to have a with jesus christ, andwe love jesus, praise then, we
have to help bring that gap back.
Yep, excellent, very good it'snot a easy situation.
Adrian Crum (32:40):
Good, yeah, I was trying to hide the fact that
deacons are not just the holdersof the checkbook right, just
sending off money to people.
It's a lot of very complicatedcircumstances like this where
you're needing to hold people'shands and pray for them.
Lynne Hunter (32:55):
Yeah, deacons, and I would say Harvest is a good
example.
We are not buildings and bugs,not buildings and bugs.
We are ministers of mercy andit has nothing to do with
buildings and bugs.
It has to do with the spirituallife of people that are in need
(33:17):
.
And yeah, we have.
We do work with money, we dowork with legal documents and
that kind of stuff, but it's allin regards to the helping of
people.
Hey, the building might have tofall down around us because
that's not our job.
(33:37):
Our job goes back to what youread in Act 6 to help those that
are in need, and that's both onthe spiritual and the physical
side.
Adrian Crum (33:50):
Very good.
Yeah, I got another specifichard question for you guys.
I'm going to have ahypothetical guy named Luke who
asked to visit your committee.
He comes to sit down with youand he says I got a really hard
situation.
My parents are in their 80s,mid 80s.
They're not safe on the stairs,up and down the stairs.
We have sat down with them.
(34:11):
My extended family sat downwith my parents and told them
they need to move into assistedliving and they said absolutely
not, we're staying in our home.
I certainly understand thedesire to stay in a comfortable
place, but if you've encounteredthis before as deacons, what
counsel and how would you help afamily, an extended family,
through an issue like that,where they're trying to care for
their parents but their parentsare not maybe noticing some of
(34:33):
the dangers of staying in theirhome?
Cameron Brown (34:37):
How would you respond?
Honor your father and yourmother and their wishes?
Possibly it's a tricky one, butis their child making these
decisions selfishly, as in whenI say selfishly, do they not
want to provide you care fortheir parents if they were to
have an emergency at home, falldown the stairs.
(35:00):
There are things that you cando within the home to make it
more, uh, accessible, uh, toeither handicapped or elderly
people.
So, making everything on onelevel, putting everything below
cabinet level on countertops inhigh-vis areas, getting rid of
(35:20):
some delicate furniture, thoseare all ways that that son or
daughter could potentially helpin honoring their father and
their mother's wishes.
I don't think it's right orreasonable to force a parent out
of somewhere that they'recomfortable living, unless there
(35:42):
is a very urgent medical need.
If we're talking about, like adementia issue, something that's
making them physicallyhandicapped, where they can't
provide a basic need forthemselves a shower or going to
the bathroom, that's where you'dstart to really encourage, and
the church might step in toshepherd the elderly and try to
(36:06):
spiritually walk them throughwhether they're making the
decision selfishly to staywithin the home.
It'll go back and forth,probably.
But yeah, I think yeah if it'sjust an easy case of they don't
want to move out of their housejust because they can't get up
some stairs.
I think the first thing wouldbe to look at whether in-home
(36:27):
care how that fits in.
A nurse comes to the house onceor a couple times a week.
That's all possible.
That's done all over the place,and we would look at what is
the child doing for theirparents.
Are they visiting regularly?
If the child of an elderly hasa true, deep-rooted faith in
(36:48):
Christ and caring for others, ifthey're deeply rooted in faith
and honoring Christ, they willdo what's necessary to keep
their parents in a home thatthey so love.
I'd put myself in that kid'sshoes.
My parents are 80 plus.
I want to be the person thatwants to spend as much time as I
(37:09):
can with them in their lastyears.
I would be very disappointed inmyself if I didn't have the
ambition to do that.
There would be somethinglacking in my heart if that were
the case and I hope I'm awareof that when the time comes.
I pray that I have a generousheart towards them when it gets
to be that time.
But yeah, I think that's atough one.
(37:32):
Somewhere in there there's someselfish decisions happening and
we just would have to figureout the root of it.
Adrian Crum (37:39):
Excellent.
Yeah, lynn, this question isfor you.
Let's say, a person in their60s or 70s has a surprise
medical procedure.
They suddenly get just a floodof bills in the mail and it's
very, very difficult for them tounderstand even their own
insurance and how those thingswill be covered.
How would you help someonenavigate some of those questions
(38:00):
?
They're very fearful.
They don't know if they'regoing to be able to make ends
meet.
How would you encourage amember when they're struggling
to understand some of thebilling issues with their
doctor's appointments?
Lynne Hunter (38:09):
Well, that's the one thing I think Harvest has an
advantage being big.
We have resources in our owncongregation that work in the
hospitals.
No, they cannot, because ofHIPAA laws they cannot look at
the various situations.
But we can create examples orwe can even talk to them, with
(38:34):
permission from that person,about the bill and we can come
up with creative ways tounderstand what can this person
do to help pay this bill.
We can look at it holisticallyand say you know, you're going
to be walking alongside thisperson.
(38:55):
Hopefully, if the deaconate isworking right, they already know
who this person is even beforethey have the surgery and things
overwhelm them and so that theyare familiar with you and are
willing to share and so youunderstand their finances.
And then you just you step upby them and maybe even it's take
(39:19):
time from your daily activityor evening and you help them
with the telephone calls to thedoctor's office, to the hospital
, to the billing departments,and you just give them that
reassurance and help themthrough.
What questions do I ask?
How do I set up payment plans?
(39:41):
And then, with harvestdeaconate, you would become the
intermediator and go back to theharvest deaconate and say, hey,
okay, so we've worked throughall the options.
They can pay this much of thebill.
There's going to be this muchleft.
Is the harvest deacon willingto pay this out of the nab?
(40:05):
And we ask the deacons as awhole to contribute.
And that is just the biggestthing here, I think, is knowing
who is in your congregation andknowing who to approach to ask
questions about finance, andthen knowing how to take that
(40:28):
knowledge and help that personunderstand that it's not
something that's going to.
It feels overwhelming, butthere's others to bear that
burden with them.
So what you really have to dois people have to realize yes,
we're individuals, but we belongto a great big family and
sometimes those family secretsthat we don't want to share with
others has to be shared.
Adrian Crum (40:49):
Good.
Any questions or other commentsyou guys would want to add
before we wrap up?
Lynne Hunter (40:55):
I would suggest that the CDM, in one of their
next summits where we've invitedall the deacons to just like a
general assembly, I wouldsuggest that in one of those
summits that would be upcomingis that we put a section in on
this topic.
It's a good idea Because we arean aging church on both ends.
(41:19):
We have a lot of young families, but there's a lot of older
families in the OPC.
Adrian Crum (41:26):
Very true, yeah, yeah, well, thank you, cameron
Brown and Lynn Hunter, deaconsat Harvest Church.
It's been an honor to have youon the Reformed Deacon podcast
and it is just an honor to servewith you, brothers, at our
church together.
I always appreciate ourmeetings together, our times of
prayer.
I see your heart and your lovefor our congregation together,
(41:48):
our times of prayer.
I see your heart and your lovefor our congregation and, as a
pastor, I'm so encouraged and Isee the way that you love the
people here with true mercy andthe gospel.
David Nakhla (41:54):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformdeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReformed Deacon Podcast.
So it's not specifically for the committee
or the deacons to come up with acare or the need, but we are
here to also, if we can't meetthe need, make the connection to
somebody else who can, and Ithink that's very powerful and
that's where we want to go as abody of Christ.
We're brothers and sisters.
We want to be able to have thatkind of community.
(00:23):
We want to be able to have thatkind of community.
David Nakhla (00:24):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon.
A casual conversation withtopics specifically designed to
help local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
Adrian Crum (00:49):
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
My name is Adrian Crum.
I'm a pastor at HarvestOrthodox Presbyterian Church in
the greater Grand Rapids,michigan area, and I'm so
grateful to serve on the OPC'sCommittee on Diaconal Ministries
and today we have the privilege, on the Reformed Deacon, of
welcoming Lynn Hunter andCameron Brown, two gentlemen
that I serve with.
They're deacons here at Harvestand we're going to be talking
today about our elderlycommittee here at Harvest.
(01:09):
It's a committee of our deaconsthat was established to help in
caring for those who aregrowing elderly in our community
, and Lynn, our deacon,referenced this committee on a
previous episode of the podcast.
If you are a listener to theReformed Deacon Podcast, that
episode was called Real WorldCases Be Proactive.
Be sure to go and take a listento that when you can, and
(01:29):
there's some excellent insightsin that episode.
I really recommend you listen.
So we thought it'd be reallyhelpful for us to explain more
about Harvest Elderly Committeeand talk a little bit about its
goals as well as work to serveour seasoned saints, deacons and
members alike, and weunderstand that the situations
that other OPC churches may bein, or any church that you're in
(01:50):
, may be a little different thanHarvest's situation, but we're
praying that some of theprinciples and some of the
things that we've learned wouldbe a benefit to you all.
So we see in Acts 6 that caringfor widows was actually the
very origin of the diaconaloffice.
And then Paul in 1 Timothy 5and James, chapter 127, places a
(02:11):
very, very high commitment oncaring for widows in a
congregation.
So I wanted to just hear alittle bit of the background
story and Lynn or Cam feel freeto take it away the background
story of why do we focus oncaring for the elderly at
Harvest and how are eldersinvolved for some of the deeper
spiritual aspects as well.
Cameron Brown (02:30):
So, as far as I'm concerned, in the past, I'm not
sure if there was a committeefocused on the elderly
specifically until, I believe,the middle of last year, which
was 2023.
It had come to our attentionthat we would need a specific
set of people to kind oforganize and figure out how we
(02:50):
can better shepherd the agingand elderly at church.
A few of the firstconversations that we had kind
of revolved around I don't knowif I want to say a holistic
approach, not necessarily forspiritual needs, but as far as
we were focused on end-of-lifecare, retirement, the many legal
(03:13):
things that aging and elderlypeople deal with, medicare,
social Security, how to navigatethose murky waters as they rely
on other benefits since they'renot receiving normal paycheck
from an employer that they mayhave used to work for.
So we had found back in the day, we had a folder that had a
(03:37):
bunch of resources in it and abunch of areas for somebody to
fill out.
Lynne Hunter (03:43):
It was Ken Vandermolen, and the folder
you're referencing was given tous by David Haney and it had to
do with willing and trust andmaking the OPC one of your
benefactors when you die Right.
Cameron Brown (04:01):
So we found that in church and realized we wanted
to revamp that and maybe comeup with our own way to kind of
rewrite it to be easier to workthrough with aging or elderly
folks.
That was a good starting point.
So more legalistic approach onwhere does an elderly person,
(04:21):
whether a widow or a couple, atharvest, where do they stand in
the real world?
How are they surviving and dothey need help checking the
boxes to make sure they're beingresponsible financially, caring
for their family?
Lynne Hunter (04:37):
Part of it was that we had, or have, a number
of elderly folk that have nofamily and we were getting
called in to help these peoplenavigate murky waters.
They could no longer live bythemselves.
And we were getting asked well,how can we help them?
(04:59):
And that's when we startedexploring what are we supposed
to, what is our responsibilityas deacons?
And that was kind of some ofthe catalyst when we found that
folder and started perusingthrough that and saying, okay,
here's some good ideas, but itstill doesn't give us the total
(05:19):
answer.
Now, we still don't have atotal answer, but we're working
on it.
Adrian Crum (05:24):
Good yeah, and I think it'll just be helpful for
our listeners to.
I think every church canprobably relate just about every
church can relate to this.
I'm new at Harvest in the lastthree years but our church is
about 30 years old and many ofour churches in the OPC are
getting to an older average age.
(05:44):
If you guys were to put a guesson a ratio, a percentage of the
congregation that is, let's say, over 65, what would you guess
is the 20% of our congregationof Communicate members of our
congregation.
Lynne Hunter (05:59):
let's classify it a little bit 20% of the
Communicate members of ourcongregation are over 65.
Adrian Crum (06:08):
So that's a pretty high number, one out of every
five, yeah.
Lynne Hunter (06:12):
If we used the congregation as a whole baptized
members and Communicatetogether, then it's 9%, but at
20% that means there is a fairnumber of our congregation that
is in that category and just soyou know, that number will
(06:35):
probably go up by another 3% to5% next year.
Adrian Crum (06:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So do you think of familymembers, let's say, who are not
members of Harvest?
As people, you would also,obviously, if someone is able to
depend on their familyscripturally speaking, we want
to have family members care forother family members, but if
there was a very hard situationof an elderly person, let's say,
(06:58):
who was related to a Harvestmember, how do you think about
that as deacons?
Lynne Hunter (07:03):
Let me understand your question Yep Harvest member
.
How do you think about that asdeacons?
Let me understand your question, Yep.
If I had a parent that was nota member of Harvest but I was
taking care of?
Them let's say I wasn't able totake care of them.
What would the deacons ofHarvest do?
Adrian Crum (07:22):
Is that kind of what your answer question is?
That's a great reformatting ofthe question.
I was thinking hypotheticallyany person who is connected
somehow to a person who's agingand they can't care for them.
How do deacons think aboutnon-members?
But your question is excellent,lynn.
Lynne Hunter (07:37):
I think we would.
In a certain sense, we think inthe same vein.
We take care of many peoplefrom outside our church, where
we help, and I think we wouldstep in and try to guide this
person or this family in thesame way.
(07:58):
And we have actually hadsimilar not quite the, but
similar situations where we'vehad people who have family
members that are not taking careof their elderly family members
and we have stepped in andtaken control of those
situations.
And that's part of where thiswhole committee, if you want to
(08:22):
call it, or basis of why did thedeacons at harvest look at it
comes from.
Because when you do this, it'sstepping into the whole thing
and you end up in some caseshaving to become a legal
guardian of that person, so itbecomes a tricky situation.
Adrian Crum (08:42):
Yeah, yeah, that would be very, very complicated.
So another question I had wasare all the people on this
committee caring for the elderlyharvest deacons, or do you have
non-deacons who are members atharvest serve in some way to
care for the elderly harvest?
Cameron Brown (09:00):
So this committee alone, obviously with the
amount of members we have andelderly, would not be able to be
sustainable in taking care ofthem solely for their needs.
So, where the committee wascreated, to give direction, to
find resources and to make theconnections within the church, I
(09:21):
think is a few of our maingoals.
We can go beyond that,obviously, with calling but,
like we just discussed,understanding the need in
Scripture tells us all of us,right away, I mean to seek help
from family first.
We're living in faith.
We are called to take care ofour mother and father right as
(09:45):
children, and so that's thefirst step is understanding
where they are in life and ifthey are a true widow.
I say true widow meaning theydon't have any family around
children or parents, obviously,for that matter.
If the church is their family,we are called to take them under
our care, which is difficult inwaters.
(10:07):
We need to figure out how towalk together.
But as far as who takes care ofthem, one thing I put together
recently, which Adrian and Lynnare aware of, is a quick survey
of talents throughout the church.
Survey of talents throughoutthe church.
(10:27):
This was a widespread surveyjust to collect interest and
talents from all the members atHarvest.
Upon receiving feedback, we hada good response and one of the
gifts, if you were, was caringfor the elderly.
So that gave me ability to seethe gifts within the church on a
broader scale, so not just inthe deacons or elder groups.
(10:50):
So if we are approached with aneed from an elderly in a
specific way, whether it's alittle bit of home care, we see
that right now with one of ourgreat members, one of our great
members.
But that was a way to give someoutreach and get some more
support from the congregationbecause obviously deacons were
(11:11):
all men, elders they're all menin the church.
If we are approached with a needfrom a female, if it's an
in-home care, we are asked totake care of some needs.
Obviously we would want afemale to be able to make that
connection.
We've seen that just worksbetter in this world to make it
more comfortable for everyone.
(11:32):
That just allowed us to thentake that group of people who
said their gift was caring forthe elderly.
I can shoot an email in theirdirection and say, hey, we were
approached with this need fromthis member, or it could be
somebody from the outside, as wediscussed as well, and would
you be willing, if you are socalled, to take care of that
person for a time being in anysort of way?
(11:55):
So it's not specifically for thecommittee or the deacons to
come up with a care or the need,but we are here to also, if we
can't meet the need, make theconnection to somebody else who
can, and I think that's verypowerful and that's where we
want to go as a body of Christ.
We're brothers and sisters.
We want to be able to have thatkind of community throughout
(12:20):
the whole church.
We don't want to isolate it tojust specific groups to do this,
and I think that's just goingto build God's kingdom even more
and help us to love each other.
But so, yeah, hopefully thatanswers the question a little
bit.
Adrian Crum (12:36):
Excellent.
Yeah, so 1 Timothy 5 has someof the principles that you
referenced.
I'm just going to read 1Timothy 5, 16.
It says if any believing womanhas relatives who are widows,
let her care for them.
Let the church not be burdened,so that it may care for those
who are truly widows.
I love the fact that the NewTestament assumes that there's
going to be multi-generations.
(12:56):
In the Bible we are not savedas individuals, but God saves us
and our grandparents and ourparents and our children.
So is this committee proactive?
Do you check in with those whoare over a certain age on a
rotation, or you just wait forthings to come to you when you
sense the needs arise?
Or is there some sort ofcombination of both?
Cameron Brown (13:18):
I feel like we're reactive, I would agree, and I
don't mean that in a bad way.
But if I said we were Mostly, Iwould say most of our elderly
congregation are a part of thatgroup which they go through
(13:51):
fellowship, bible study andprayer opportunities outside of
the church, so they're very wellconnected with brothers and
sisters in Christ.
What that means is a lot ofthose needs, loneliness,
questions they have couldpossibly be answered by who
they're surrounding themselveswith in that group, and that
(14:14):
does take the burden off thechurch right there and the
deacons, because maybe there'sthings that are being met and
prayers being answered withinthat group.
But I think, with the committeestarting, we wanted to try and
be more proactive.
We wanted to understand thecongregation and their needs and
how we could better equipourselves to handle those needs.
(14:38):
And those are things we'restill working through.
We're not going to be able toperfect this 100%.
I would say if we can even getto a passing rate of 70 or
something would be great, butevery need is different.
Something would be great, butevery need is different and with
each need we, under carefulconsideration, we pray that we
have the wisdom to be able toanswer to a call.
(15:01):
So the little things likechecking the boxes can help,
like getting a little brochuretogether to hand off to an
elderly who's got questionsabout Medicare.
That's great.
We can serve in those ways aswell.
That gets us partial of the waythere.
The committee was created tokind of weed through resources,
(15:23):
if I start going down that road.
We did a lot of research onlocal areas around West Michigan
that focuses on helping theaging population and we narrowed
that all the way down to onegroup Area Agencies on Aging
(15:44):
which is a West Michigan group,and they have all the resources
and I have introduced one of theI can't remember his name off
the top of my head, but Ibelieve he was a director there.
He came into one of the HARPSmeetings and I joined him and he
gave a brief presentation onwhat the agency does and then
(16:05):
after the meeting I wasapproached by some of the folks
there that, yeah, they call meevery week making sure I know
when to sign up for Medicare orSocial Security.
I'm not familiar with any ofthat right now.
I pray that I might make itthere.
But yeah, the stuff is known butit also might not be for some
(16:26):
of those out there who are justapproaching that age.
So those are some of the thingswe want to do to be proactive.
So those are some of the thingswe want to do to be proactive,
having the resources at hand sowe can readily give them out
when the questions are asked andthen continually, maybe bring
that resource in once a year todo the little 20 minute spiel on
(16:48):
what the agency does and howthey can help support, and I
think that stuff's important forthe church and I think it's,
yeah, as our community.
That's our duty and that's whatwe're trying to focus on.
Adrian Crum (17:02):
Thank you so much.
So let's say I'm kind ofputting myself in the shoes of a
listener.
They're thinking to themselveswow, harvest sounds very
organized and there's lots andlots of things happening because
it's a very large church.
How could you apply some of theprinciples of what you guys are
talking about to a congregation, let's imagine, of 40 people in
a rural area.
They have one deacon, maybe two, and they're thinking how do I
(17:31):
care for the four or fiveelderly people in our
congregation?
Do some of the things you'respeaking about apply to a
smaller congregation?
How could you help a deacon inthat context?
Cameron Brown (17:37):
Yeah, so I can imagine a smaller congregation
with, I'm just going to say, onedeacon.
So that's a lot of people.
Let's say half of them areelderly, that's 20 people coming
to one person to fulfill a lotof questions and needs.
That would be very overwhelming, at least to me.
(17:59):
Let's say that one deacon hasfour kids running around at home
under five.
Talk about stressful.
But I would encourage thatcongregation to do kind of what
I did as far as reaching out tothe congregation to figure out
kind of the gifts and talents wego back to that on how they can
(18:21):
help support each other.
That would give that deacon anopportunity to focus on a
specific group outreach to them.
Okay, you're good at caring forthe elderly.
I have this need.
How can you come alongside meand help me?
We talked about the scripturenot just being pinpointing
(18:41):
towards deacons or elders, butto all of followers of Christ.
That would be very hard, thatthat deacon would have to be a
little bit more outspoken,probably if it's just one of
them, otherwise it's going to bevery difficult for him to
navigate and communicate withall the people within their
(19:02):
church.
So outreach is important.
The pastor, elder if there's anelder, a couple elders could
walk alongside him to kind ofhelp navigate and make those
connections.
To kind of help navigate andmake those connections, our
deacons within our church.
(19:22):
I have my name and I have anumber of members underneath me
whether it's split upalphabetically, but we kind of
have an even amount of memberswithin the church that are
assigned to a deacon.
I could imagine a smallerchurch being okay.
I have split up into, let's say, a couple groups of five or so
and then you just mix match somemembers who might be
(19:42):
accountable for checking in withthat family and the deacon can
come alongside them, make surethey're making the connection,
ask that group have you reachedout to so-and-so?
I think it has to be a veryclose-knit family community.
I would assume it is with asmaller church, but yeah, with a
larger church like Harvest, wedo have to be a little bit more
(20:06):
structured, I feel likeOtherwise things could get a
little bit hairy.
Adrian Crum (20:10):
Excellent.
No, I think that's a reallyreally helpful answer.
Thank you, cam.
Do you have something else,lynn, you want to say?
Lynne Hunter (20:26):
Yeah, I would also suggest that this rural
congregation, the deacon, lookout further than his
congregation.
We're Presbyterian churchgovernment.
We start with the session whohas deacons serving with them in
a local congregation.
But that local congregationisn't an island sitting by
itself.
It is a member of a largercommunity called the Presbytery,
(20:50):
and in the OPC each Presbyteryhas a presbytery diaconate.
Some of them are structured alittle bit different but they're
all kind of heading toward thesame way.
The michigan ontario presbyteryworks where there's members of
(21:11):
different churches that servethe presbytery diaconate and
that deacon could in theory, orshould, look to that broader
church and then the broaderchurch, the presbytery diaconate
, and also look out further andgo to the denomination, the
Committee on Diaconal Ministries, and ask for more help or more
(21:35):
advice.
And so a single deacon shouldnever say, man, I don't know
what to do.
There should always be anotherchurch that he could look to.
So every church in Michiganshould be able to look out and
say, hey, who can I look to tohelp?
Our brothers in Canada can lookat all the churches the five or
(22:00):
six Canadian churches that wehave, and say how can we
navigate the system there?
The Canadian system is a littlebit different than the US
system, but don't feel likeyou're on an island by yourself
and have to conquer the problemby yourself.
Adrian Crum (22:17):
Very good.
No, that's excellent and a goodplug, lynn, for the work of our
committee, because one of thethings that we do is connect
deacons.
We train Presbyterialcommittees of deacons all around
the country.
We actually have a summit whatis that?
Every two or three years, wherewe will gather the committees
of presidenciaries and speakabout some of these issues.
(22:38):
How do we support localchurches that may not have a
large diaconate?
We just have to do it.
Yeah, that's exactly what I wasthinking.
I was thinking of a situationwhere someone and again, there's
a lot of good work ethic herein West Michigan at least, but I
think sometimes we can be veryproud to try to ask for any help
and so being willing to pressthrough and demonstrate that we
(23:01):
actually care enough to ask someof those hard questions and
then help people out in hardsituations.
So, cam and Lynn let's saysomeone has been listening to
this.
They're really, reallyappreciating some of the
practical advice that you'reoffering and they're thinking
man, I want to launch my ownelderly committee.
What would be three takeawaysfrom today's conversation?
How would you say these are thethree things that you need to
(23:23):
start doing to get an elderlysupport committee started?
Cameron Brown (23:29):
One.
I would start withunderstanding what we are called
to do in Scripture, and I wantto point to a passage that is
very relevant and well-known.
So, philippians 2, 3 through 8.
I think this could be even amodel for this type of committee
in your foundation.
(23:49):
So, philippians 2, 3 through 8,nothing from selfish ambition or
conceit, but in humility, countothers more significant than
yourselves.
So let each of you look notonly to his own interests but
also to the interests of others.
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus
, who, though he was in the formof God, did not count equality
(24:11):
with God a thing to be grasped,but emptied himself by taking
the form of a servant, which weare now called of being born in
likeness of men and being foundin human form.
He humbled himself by becomingobedient to the point of death,
even death on a cross, andunderstanding what we're being
(24:31):
called to do there, and it's allover throughout scripture, not
just there.
Talk about honoring your fatherand your mother, john 19, when
(24:54):
Jesus was on the cross, lookingdown at John, and just meditate
on to understand what they'recalled to do and how they are to
move forward in shepherding thecongregation in that way.
So that would be step onecreating a good foundation on
why you are doing what you'redoing.
Step two find people.
(25:15):
Lynn, do you have anything elsefor step one?
Maybe I like your step one.
Lynne Hunter (25:22):
Your step two find people.
But I would go to your otherdocument that you created, your
survey.
Find your congregation, who isyour congregation, what gifts
does your congregation have andhow can they help?
And then from that, find ifwe're a small congregation or
(25:47):
even a large congregation asours.
Find two or three people thatcan join or are willing to join
and help.
Don't take all the burden ofthe work on your diaconate.
Cameron Brown (26:03):
Yeah, I think, along with step two, not just
knowing the number and the ageof your congregation but getting
to know your congregation.
So that survey really helped inunderstanding what people were
called and are willing to do tohelp walk alongside that deacon
as this next resource and theresources that we had done
(26:27):
research on that could be thesecond part of step two.
But understanding yourcommunity outside of your church
, either, finding Christianresources, even non-Christian
resources, that help with agingand elderly folks, so within
your local community.
I think a little bit of workcan be done there to figure out
where you can send people to toanswer those basic questions,
(26:50):
which I wouldn't know anythingabout Social Security or
Medicare.
But there are professionals outthere who volunteer to do this
and that was the guy who came inand talked to our HARPS group.
He has dedicated his life tocommunicating with elderly
people to help them navigate allof those different options that
(27:11):
they have, and that deacon orthat church needs to figure out
what those resources are to beable to hand those reaching out
to the elderly, asking thequestions maybe not asking them
(27:34):
in a prodding way like theSocial Security phone would
assume for a really, really longtime and they are
well-developed Christians.
They know scripture, they knowwhere they're going at the end
of their life, Praise the Lord.
(27:56):
I'm not saying that's 100%always the case, but they are
very wise people.
So we just need to lightly askthe questions if they understand
, or just getting to know them.
We don't need to even ask themquestions about those things,
but kind of understanding.
I guess the first thing is howlong they've been a member at
(28:19):
the church.
Do they have family around?
What brought them to yourchurch?
What do you like about thechurch?
Those are just basic questionsthat can get you a communication
rolling in some sort ofrelationship where they might
look to you and reach back outto you if they do have a
question about something morepersonal.
(28:39):
So I think it needs to startthere, building the relationship
in step three with everybody inthe church.
Adrian Crum (28:45):
Let's say there is total familial breakdown in the
family.
Let's say the kids are notspeaking to their parents
anymore, but they're both in thesame church.
How would you help someone inthat situation?
Certainly, elders may need tobe involved in that, but if
there's relational breakdownbetween children and their
parents, does that somehowrelease the obligation to care
(29:08):
for parents?
Or how would you approach thatas deacons?
If someone says I don't eventalk to my parents anymore, but
they're in a really hardfinancial situation?
Cameron Brown (29:16):
We're talking to a very small fraction and that's
where it gets very hard and youget the families that are
disconnected or dysfunctionaland children that don't think
it's their responsibility, theirparents.
They probably say they shouldhave been able to figure this
out from the start and it's sadthat that happens.
But the church is then calledto step in, I would believe, to
(29:39):
take that burden off theparent's shoulders.
We know that it is from theblind man.
It is not because the parenthas sinned that the man was born
blind, but it was the will ofGod right so that he might come
to faith and see.
(30:00):
I think that's where we wouldstand is not to put any guilt on
the parents or the children,but there's a physical and
spiritual need that the churchneeds to fill and has been
called to fill.
So I don't think we would taskif the parents come to us and
say, yes, my child.
(30:21):
I'm assuming they're lostwithout faith at that point.
If they're Christians, maybethey need a little bit of
guiding and teaching.
That was more my question.
Adrian Crum (30:31):
Two members of your church.
They're both professing to beChristians, but through some
relational breakdown they arenot talking to each other
anymore.
Cameron Brown (30:42):
I said it was thorny From those two members in
the church are no longertalking.
That's right they don't.
They don't get the afternooncoffee invitation for grandma
anymore but the grandma and thein the son is at church together
yep, same church.
Adrian Crum (30:58):
I am sure some of you have seen this.
Lynne Hunter (31:00):
I've seen this thorny situation.
The church is still called tohelp both sides and there's two
aspects to the help.
And guess what?
The deacons do not get to throwthe spiritual aspect side over
the wall 100% to the elders.
The elders have to know aboutit.
(31:24):
The elders will probably beassisting, but the deacons will
still have to come in and helpon the physical side and the
spiritual side.
So Harvest conducts regularfamily visitation.
This one might have more thanregular family visitation.
This one might have monthly oreven weekly visitation, and so
(31:50):
it gets a little bit more tricky.
But on both sides, both eldersand deacons.
But if it's deacon-led, you'retrying to lead the two parties
back together because the callof the gospel doesn't allow us
to split the family.
The call of the gospel says hey, we love Jesus Christ, and if
(32:11):
we love Jesus Christ we have tolove our neighbor.
And if we love our neighborthen I have to love my father
and mother.
Cameron Brown (32:21):
You can't have one without the other.
Lynne Hunter (32:23):
Yeah, you can't divorce the two If you're going
to have a with jesus christ, andwe love jesus, praise then, we
have to help bring that gap back.
Yep, excellent, very good it'snot a easy situation.
Adrian Crum (32:40):
Good, yeah, I was trying to hide the fact that
deacons are not just the holdersof the checkbook right, just
sending off money to people.
It's a lot of very complicatedcircumstances like this where
you're needing to hold people'shands and pray for them.
Lynne Hunter (32:55):
Yeah, deacons, and I would say Harvest is a good
example.
We are not buildings and bugs,not buildings and bugs.
We are ministers of mercy andit has nothing to do with
buildings and bugs.
It has to do with the spirituallife of people that are in need
(33:17):
.
And yeah, we have.
We do work with money, we dowork with legal documents and
that kind of stuff, but it's allin regards to the helping of
people.
Hey, the building might have tofall down around us because
that's not our job.
(33:37):
Our job goes back to what youread in Act 6 to help those that
are in need, and that's both onthe spiritual and the physical
side.
Adrian Crum (33:50):
Very good.
Yeah, I got another specifichard question for you guys.
I'm going to have ahypothetical guy named Luke who
asked to visit your committee.
He comes to sit down with youand he says I got a really hard
situation.
My parents are in their 80s,mid 80s.
They're not safe on the stairs,up and down the stairs.
We have sat down with them.
(34:11):
My extended family sat downwith my parents and told them
they need to move into assistedliving and they said absolutely
not, we're staying in our home.
I certainly understand thedesire to stay in a comfortable
place, but if you've encounteredthis before as deacons, what
counsel and how would you help afamily, an extended family,
through an issue like that,where they're trying to care for
their parents but their parentsare not maybe noticing some of
(34:33):
the dangers of staying in theirhome?
Cameron Brown (34:37):
How would you respond?
Honor your father and yourmother and their wishes?
Possibly it's a tricky one, butis their child making these
decisions selfishly, as in whenI say selfishly, do they not
want to provide you care fortheir parents if they were to
have an emergency at home, falldown the stairs.
(35:00):
There are things that you cando within the home to make it
more, uh, accessible, uh, toeither handicapped or elderly
people.
So, making everything on onelevel, putting everything below
cabinet level on countertops inhigh-vis areas, getting rid of
(35:20):
some delicate furniture, thoseare all ways that that son or
daughter could potentially helpin honoring their father and
their mother's wishes.
I don't think it's right orreasonable to force a parent out
of somewhere that they'recomfortable living, unless there
(35:42):
is a very urgent medical need.
If we're talking about, like adementia issue, something that's
making them physicallyhandicapped, where they can't
provide a basic need forthemselves a shower or going to
the bathroom, that's where you'dstart to really encourage, and
the church might step in toshepherd the elderly and try to
(36:06):
spiritually walk them throughwhether they're making the
decision selfishly to staywithin the home.
It'll go back and forth,probably.
But yeah, I think yeah if it'sjust an easy case of they don't
want to move out of their housejust because they can't get up
some stairs.
I think the first thing wouldbe to look at whether in-home
(36:27):
care how that fits in.
A nurse comes to the house onceor a couple times a week.
That's all possible.
That's done all over the place,and we would look at what is
the child doing for theirparents.
Are they visiting regularly?
If the child of an elderly hasa true, deep-rooted faith in
(36:48):
Christ and caring for others, ifthey're deeply rooted in faith
and honoring Christ, they willdo what's necessary to keep
their parents in a home thatthey so love.
I'd put myself in that kid'sshoes.
My parents are 80 plus.
I want to be the person thatwants to spend as much time as I
(37:09):
can with them in their lastyears.
I would be very disappointed inmyself if I didn't have the
ambition to do that.
There would be somethinglacking in my heart if that were
the case and I hope I'm awareof that when the time comes.
I pray that I have a generousheart towards them when it gets
to be that time.
But yeah, I think that's atough one.
(37:32):
Somewhere in there there's someselfish decisions happening and
we just would have to figureout the root of it.
Adrian Crum (37:39):
Excellent.
Yeah, lynn, this question isfor you.
Let's say, a person in their60s or 70s has a surprise
medical procedure.
They suddenly get just a floodof bills in the mail and it's
very, very difficult for them tounderstand even their own
insurance and how those thingswill be covered.
How would you help someonenavigate some of those questions
(38:00):
?
They're very fearful.
They don't know if they'regoing to be able to make ends
meet.
How would you encourage amember when they're struggling
to understand some of thebilling issues with their
doctor's appointments?
Lynne Hunter (38:09):
Well, that's the one thing I think Harvest has an
advantage being big.
We have resources in our owncongregation that work in the
hospitals.
No, they cannot, because ofHIPAA laws they cannot look at
the various situations.
But we can create examples orwe can even talk to them, with
(38:34):
permission from that person,about the bill and we can come
up with creative ways tounderstand what can this person
do to help pay this bill.
We can look at it holisticallyand say you know, you're going
to be walking alongside thisperson.
(38:55):
Hopefully, if the deaconate isworking right, they already know
who this person is even beforethey have the surgery and things
overwhelm them and so that theyare familiar with you and are
willing to share and so youunderstand their finances.
And then you just you step upby them and maybe even it's take
(39:19):
time from your daily activityor evening and you help them
with the telephone calls to thedoctor's office, to the hospital
, to the billing departments,and you just give them that
reassurance and help themthrough.
What questions do I ask?
How do I set up payment plans?
(39:41):
And then, with harvestdeaconate, you would become the
intermediator and go back to theharvest deaconate and say, hey,
okay, so we've worked throughall the options.
They can pay this much of thebill.
There's going to be this muchleft.
Is the harvest deacon willingto pay this out of the nab?
(40:05):
And we ask the deacons as awhole to contribute.
And that is just the biggestthing here, I think, is knowing
who is in your congregation andknowing who to approach to ask
questions about finance, andthen knowing how to take that
(40:28):
knowledge and help that personunderstand that it's not
something that's going to.
It feels overwhelming, butthere's others to bear that
burden with them.
So what you really have to dois people have to realize yes,
we're individuals, but we belongto a great big family and
sometimes those family secretsthat we don't want to share with
others has to be shared.
Adrian Crum (40:49):
Good.
Any questions or other commentsyou guys would want to add
before we wrap up?
Lynne Hunter (40:55):
I would suggest that the CDM, in one of their
next summits where we've invitedall the deacons to just like a
general assembly, I wouldsuggest that in one of those
summits that would be upcomingis that we put a section in on
this topic.
It's a good idea Because we arean aging church on both ends.
(41:19):
We have a lot of young families, but there's a lot of older
families in the OPC.
Adrian Crum (41:26):
Very true, yeah, yeah, well, thank you, cameron
Brown and Lynn Hunter, deaconsat Harvest Church.
It's been an honor to have youon the Reformed Deacon podcast
and it is just an honor to servewith you, brothers, at our
church together.
I always appreciate ourmeetings together, our times of
prayer.
I see your heart and your lovefor our congregation together,
(41:48):
our times of prayer.
I see your heart and your lovefor our congregation and, as a
pastor, I'm so encouraged and Isee the way that you love the
people here with true mercy andthe gospel.
David Nakhla (41:54):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformdeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again for another episode of theReformed Deacon Podcast.
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