July 1, 2024 • 33 mins
In this episode, Peter Haines, an elder at Concho Valley OPC in Concho, Arizona talks to two elders—Kris Lehner, an elder at Immanuel OPC in Medford, NJ and David Drake, an elder at Trinity OPC in Hatboro, PA. Each offer guidance to deacons, based on their expertise in the field of personal insurance in order to strengthen the understanding of "people-based insurance". Kris and David touch on risk management—a complicated topic for which diaconal resources are hard to come by.
Kris and David share their expertise on the importance of working within a budget to aid pastors, their families and others in choosing benefit packages with appropriate and sufficient amounts of disability insurance. Whether you are wealthy or struggle to make ends meet, everyone needs a plan and wisdom in knowing how to go about it. We hope that this episode will leave you with some important first steps toward that goal.
Referenced in this episode:
If you have questions you'd like to ask of Kris or David, please contact them:
Contact Kris Lehner: lehner@dlmnq.com
Contact Drake: drake@dlmnq.com
"The Exchange" (government website for insurance plans)
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Nakhla (00:00):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode, my name is Peter Haynes
(00:20):
.
Peter Haines (00:21):
I live in the mountains of northern Arizona, I
attend Concho Valley OrthodoxPresbyterian Church and, by
God's grace, I serve as an elderthere, as well as on the OPC
committee on diaphal ministries.
Today, on the Reformed Deacon,I'll be talking with two OPC
elders, chris Lehner and DavidDrake, about personal insurance.
Chris is an elder at EmanuelOPC in Medford, new Jersey.
(00:43):
Before that, he served as adeacon for four years.
Chris is co-owner of a benefitsconsulting firm.
David's an elder at Trinity OPCin Hatboro, pennsylvania, and
has served also as a deacon fortwo years.
David and Chris, along withanother Christian business
partner, own an insurance andbenefits practice that serves
(01:04):
both private and corporateclients.
Thank you, chris and David, fortaking the time to be here
today to lend your expertise.
Thanks for having us.
David Drake (01:11):
Yeah, thank you, peter, it's good to be with you.
Peter Haines (01:13):
When we think about finances and things like
insurance, we can look to versessuch as Psalm 24, 1, which says
the earth is the Lord's and thefullness thereof, the world and
those who dwell therein.
God created Adam to tend hisgarden.
We also need to practice thatkind of stewardship in our lives
.
And 1 Timothy 5, 8, which saysbut if anyone does not provide
(01:34):
for his relatives, andespecially for members of his
household, he has denied thefaith and is worse than an
unbeliever.
This command can beaccomplished by family members
and members of the church caringfor one another and by way of
the deacons, as they care withinas well as outside of the
church.
One of the ways deacons canhelp us is to guide us through
difficult decisions likeinsurance.
(01:56):
Insurance can be a multifacetedand confusing topic, made even
more complicated by trying tomanage it from a Christian
perspective.
We're going to try to breakthrough that confusion with
Chris and David's help, as wetry to aid deacons in their work
with their congregations.
Today, we'll focus on personalinsurance.
I was able to find six types ofpersonal insurance Homeowners,
(02:19):
renters, health, life, auto andshort and long-term disability.
Does that exhaust the list?
Yeah?
David Drake (02:27):
you might consider another couple, and Chris might
be able to think of a couple ofadditions.
Long-term care insurance wouldbe one to cover the costs of
long-term care, either in afacility or to obtain care at
home, and then perhaps annuitiesthat are income-oriented, that
(02:48):
people can't outlive an incomestream if they're concerned
about that.
Peter Haines (02:53):
So let's talk a little bit about homeowners
insurance.
David Drake (02:56):
So, believe it or not, I actually have a license,
but we don't really do insurancethat has to do with things.
We focus on insurance that hasto do with people.
However, I guess, justgenerally speaking, a lot of
these things are risk managementtopics, and so, yes,
homeowner's insurance, renter'sinsurance, things of that nature
are important.
(03:16):
Auto insurance and then the onethat I did see that was perhaps
worthy of mention, that wasn'tlisted necessarily be umbrella
coverage, which would extend thecoverage of some of these
products for additional coverage, including things like
protecting one legally againstcertain items and things of that
nature.
So, again, they're in thecategory of risk management
(03:39):
concerning the things that weown and things that are done,
and liabilities and things ofthat nature.
But, generally speaking, weprovide products that have to do
with human risk dying andbecoming disabled, becoming sick
, unable to work, things of thatnature.
Peter Haines (03:56):
Okay, you know your field really well.
You eat it, you breathe it, yousleep it.
Someone comes up to me and saysI don't know anything about
HVAC and I tell them a couplethings that I think are
rudimentary and nothing to me,and they go oh, that's wonderful
.
Thank you so much.
You know you've given me thisgreat tip because it's just,
(04:16):
it's not what we think about.
So having you guys to sharefrom your point of view, I think
is going to be very helpful toguys who listen.
And if you search for you knowwhat do I do as a deacon for
insurance?
There's nothing out there.
Kris Lehner (04:28):
There is what we know about insurance, and then
there's how does what we knowabout insurance help deacons and
I think any of us in the churchhas thought about these things
or experienced these things.
Usually the deacon is cominginto contact with something
after the fact.
Usually the deacon is cominginto contact with something
after the fact, meaning a needhas arisen which may or may not
have been mitigated againstthrough the use of insurance.
(04:50):
It's not always possible to dothat, but sometimes it is.
Peter Haines (04:54):
Yeah, can you talk a bit about the human risk and
how you can see it affecting thework of the deacons in the
church?
Kris Lehner (05:01):
So, if we think broadly about it, I guess the
first category that I wouldthink about again from the
diaconal and I'm also thinkingabout deacons that may be
involved in the budgetingprocess or might be involved as
treasurers as well you do see alot of deacons who act in that
capacity as well, and thatbegins to think about.
(05:22):
We have our pastors and we arethinking about benefits packages
for them, and no one became adeacon and no one became an
elder, I don't think becausethey thought they wanted to be
an HR representative.
That was not generally part ofthe job title.
But on this side of eternity,these are practical matters that
(05:45):
in caring for the physicalneeds of our people, our pastor
is a person that we should bethinking about.
So I think one of the thingsthat we want to make sure that
we're able to do and if mypastor ever listens to this, I
hope he thinks that we did agood job for him or at least got
as much as we could for him,thinks that we did a good job
for him or at least got as muchas we could for him is we want
(06:10):
to make sure that if he'sdisabled, that his income would
continue without the churchhaving to pay in addition to it,
meaning have an insurancecompany paying the pastor's
salary instead of the church nothaving a pastor because they're
disabled and still paying theirsalary.
So I think we want to make surethat our pastors have good
disability coverage so theyexperience a disability claim,
their incomes would continue.
And then, secondarily, I thinkvery simply, we want to make
(06:32):
sure that our pastors haveenough life insurance so that if
they pass away prior to the endof their working careers, their
families are not left in aposition where they now become a
diaconal matter.
Families are not left in aposition where they now become a
diaconal matter.
I don't know necessarily thatevery deacon is going to be able
to weigh in on this, but it issomething, broadly speaking, for
us as a church to think about.
(06:53):
How do we do a good jobproviding for our pastors?
It's probably an awkwardconversation for a deacon to
have with other men in thechurch or single folks in the
church or heads of households,but making sure that there's
adequate, again, disability andlife insurance in our view will
(07:15):
be preventative of creating asignificant diaconal issue down
the road.
So if mom or dad passes away,the surviving family has
adequate resource to continuefinancially.
The one thing I do see comingup I confess I'm surprised by
this.
Sometimes it's not uncommon fora deacon to be working with
(07:37):
someone who is going or may havea pending medical issue where
they might need a medicalprocedure done and they might be
on the lower end of the incomescale.
They might be an hourly workerand it might not be obvious to
them or they might not knowabout some of the health
insurance plans that are offeredthrough the exchange that they
could get literally at little tono cost.
(07:59):
That would help cover thoseanticipated medical procedures
cover those anticipated medicalprocedures.
So I think I've noticed that acouple times that simply guiding
somebody to the exchange ishelpful in getting them the
medical insurance that they need.
I don't think that what we justcovered was exhaustive, but
does that begin to address yourquestion, peter?
Peter Haines (08:19):
Yeah, no, I think that's very helpful.
The care of ministers is one ofthe things that falls on the
elders and the deacon in thechurch.
If we ask the question, are youcovered, Do you have what you
need in place?
And you know, actually take thetime to ask the hard question,
because sometimes it'suncomfortable Are you thinking
about the future today?
Kris Lehner (08:39):
I think what David would agree with is over the
course of our careers, it isvery common for someone to say I
don't care if they're a pastoror not.
Do you have disabilityinsurance?
And the question is always yeah, I have it click, without
actually looking at how much doyou have?
Meaning would that actuallyprovide enough coverage to make
(09:00):
sure that your family could livethe way they're living today?
And with pastors in particular,we have significant portion of
their pay is expressed ashousing allowance and different
insurance companies anddifferent insurance contracts
will consider that differentlyMeaning.
Some will say let's make it verysimple.
Let's just say $25,000 issalary and $25,000 is housing
(09:24):
allowance.
There are carriers who, bycontract, will only insure the
base $25,000 salary, even thoughthat only represents 50% of the
pastor's income.
So those are the types ofthings where engaging an
insurance professional to go andlook at that and make sure that
that contract would actuallycover both and to make sure that
(09:46):
the full in my example the full50,000 is being covered,
because it's not uncommon thatsomeone has $500 a month of
disability and is not aware thatthat doesn't cover the entire
salary.
Peter Haines (09:58):
That makes sense.
Some of the people I've talkedto, as we're growing this idea
of checking with people are youcovered for disability?
Do you have health insurance?
A lot of people say, well, Itrust God he's going to provide,
and I mean the end of the day,the beginning of the day.
We all know trusting God isexactly what we need to do, but
he has given us the means totake a look and choose benefit
(10:23):
packages that will help us.
I know I work for myself, sofor me, I had to do a little
more homework because myemployer doesn't give me
insurances.
Are there things that we couldtalk about that maybe would be
beneficial for deacons to thinkabout in offering people
direction where they can look?
You mentioned the exchange forinsurance.
David Drake (10:46):
Well, I think you know again, in that kind of
situation, peter, you have tothink about a lot of different
things that an employer is notdoing for you because you have
to.
You know you're working foryourself and things like
retirement plans obviously, kindof you know, stand out and in
terms of other kinds ofinsurance, obviously life
(11:06):
insurance stands out as well asdisability insurance.
You know a lot of employersthese days will give an employee
a particular multiple of salarythree times income to a maximum
of a certain amount of coverage, five times income up to you
know, half a million dollars orsomething like that.
Five times income up to half amillion dollars or something
(11:27):
like that.
And if we're working forourselves, we have to kind of
think about that for our ownfamily and think about how much
is appropriate to own and whatkind is appropriate to own given
one's economic situation, networth, income level, those kinds
of things.
So yeah, those are all thingsthat really need to be
(11:48):
considered by people who areself-employed.
It is an awkward situation Ithink Chris mentioned it before
not just for deacons but forprofessionals in our business
within the context of the churchand I confess I let people
obviously know what I do, havealways done that, but have not
solicited business within thechurch.
(12:09):
However, invariably someonewill come occasionally and ask
for help, and so that's kind ofhow that happens.
So it's an interesting thing.
I'm sort of encouraged thatyou're thinking about this as
deacons in that respect, becauseif it's hard for a deacon, it's
even more difficult for someonein the occupation of insurance
agent to sort of raise theirhand, because you know you
(12:32):
really want to be seen as afriend and a brother in Christ
first and foremost.
I think I'm probably the oldestone on this podcast.
I remember the days when therewere all kinds of pyramid
schemes happening inside thechurches across America and
people finally becoming so fedup that they'd said things like
(12:52):
you know, are you my brother inChrist or are you my salesman?
You know what I mean, and soI've always we've always wanted
not to do that, but at the sametime, you know, you want to be
available to help people if theydo need help in these
categories.
Peter Haines (13:07):
So if a member came to a deacon, a member of
the church, and says I'm soconfused by my insurance
policies there's so much herewhat would you suggest would be
the first step in offering help?
What would you say?
It's very broad, very like Idon't even know what to do here.
Where do we start?
Kris Lehner (13:24):
If that question were posed to David or myself,
the first thing that David and Iwould try to figure out is are
we talking about casualtyinsurance Are we talking about?
And when I say the wordcasualty, I'm referring to
things, not people and then ifthis is something that pertains
to people, so if it pertains tocasualty, we would want to make
(13:45):
sure that we got a good casualtyagent that we can trust to
review it and to offer theircommentary on it, and David and
I would probably do the samething if it was not that.
So the question with insuranceand David feel free to jump in
when I say this, it's notgenerally is what I have bad.
(14:05):
The question is almost alwaysdo I have enough?
And I don't want that to soundoverzealous, but most people
don't.
They don't generally haveenough.
If you think about whatever aperson's income is, if you look
at your age and say, okay, if Ineed to replace that for my wife
(14:27):
and children, or for thehusband and for the kids, if I
need to replace that, how muchis appropriate?
And that's a simple financialcalculation that most
professional agents can perform.
A financial planner can performthat, and in our world we just
say it's probably some versionof the net present value of your
earnings is a number we wouldlook at for making sure that
(14:50):
person's insured properly.
But I guess, peter, the answeris seeking wise counsel and
seeking a professional.
Peter Haines (15:00):
Yeah, that's great .
So you mentioned the word netpresent value.
Can you define that for us laypeople?
Kris Lehner (15:07):
Yeah, sure.
So I used the $50,000 examplebefore of a sample pastor and if
that pastor is 40 years old andthey're going to work till
they're 65, it's not 50 times 25is the amount of money that
they would need in lifeinsurance.
Net present value very simplysays if I calculated how much
(15:30):
money I need to have for thatnext 25 years and I assumed a
particular interest rate, thenet present value meaning how
much money do I need todaythat's going to generate that
$50,000 for the next 25 years.
That's a net present.
So it's not going to be 50times 25.
It's going to be a smallernumber and it's a calculation
(15:51):
that someone's going to do on afinancial calculator or an Excel
spreadsheet.
And I say it's a smaller numberbecause most people get afraid
when they think, okay, 50 times25 is going to be this enormous
number.
It's really not when you factorin interest on the proceeds
when they come in in the form ofa death claim.
Peter Haines (16:09):
That's helpful, thank you.
Most of the time when I thinkabout insurance, I think, oh, I
should have done this 10 yearsago.
So we get into the diagonalsituations with elderly folks
and with widows in our church.
What are things that we can sayto them that would be helpful,
instead of saying, oops, toolate, but we could say, well,
you've made some choices thatwere good, but let's make some
(16:31):
better choices today, movingforward.
What kind of examples could yougive for that?
David Drake (16:35):
I think those are really important things to
address.
If we could take one step backbefore we get to those points,
it would perhaps be helpful aswell.
Just one note to tag onto theend of Chris's thought about the
calculation involved.
You had mentioned permanentinsurance and term insurance in
(16:57):
some of the notes that we'vetraded, and one of the notes
mentioned, you know, the youngeryou are and the healthier you
are is when it's best to acquirethese things, and that's really
true regardless of the type ofinsurance.
But I guess what I'm driving atas a precursor to answering
your question is these days thatreally are as long as you're in
decent health, as long as youto answering your question is,
(17:17):
these days that are really areas long as you're in decent
health, as long as you're inrelatively good health, it's
possible to obtain at least sometemporary amount of coverage
that would cover one while thechildren are growing up, or
perhaps until retirement time,in the form of term insurance.
One quick footnote on that.
That's extremely important whenyou know you talked about the
(17:39):
hypothetical person coming inwith their policies and saying I
don't know what I have or Idon't know what to do about this
.
One of the important thingsabout different kinds of term
insurance these days is thatmost policies 20 years ago would
offer the person the ability,just with a signature and an
extra check, to say you don'thave to go through an additional
(18:01):
medical exam or anything likethat.
You bought a 10-year termpolicy or 15 or 20-year term
policy and you could keep thatin the same health class for the
rest of your life.
If you just want to convert theterm insurance, these days the
majority of term plans don'toffer that, so it takes a lot
more homework to figure out.
(18:21):
What are the contractualprovisions in what used to be
this plain old term insurancepolicy.
They're very, very differentthese days than they used to be
in terms of what do I do when Iget to the end of them if I
still need a little bit ofcoverage for some period of time
in my life?
Also, there are folks atdifferent economic levels,
different economic places on thespectrum, and sometimes people
(18:48):
want to leave the insurance asan inheritance for their
children or their children'schildren, as the case may be,
and so that's available as wellif it's something that fits
within someone's budget.
And then there are folks amongus who have very high net worths
who utilize that to pay taxesso their family can keep the
rest of the assets that they puttogether.
But the point being thatthere's something for everyone
(19:10):
along the spectrum of lifeinsurance products, regardless,
really, of where they fall inthe economic spectrum, but it
does take a little bit ofhomework to find what's best
suited for them in terms of theamount and the type that's
available for them.
Kris Lehner (19:24):
One of the things that the diaconate deals with
with extreme frequency aregenerally forget, insurance for
a second, generally speaking,financial matters.
It's you know, I think mostpeople serve as deacons because
they want to help.
You know, god hardwired them tocome to the aid and assistance
(19:48):
of other folks or, statedanother way, they may even be on
the lookout for their brothersand sisters to see where a need
is where they can jump in.
However, what I think I'veprobably noticed, maybe in the
last 15 to 20 years, thatfinancial matters seem to bubble
up to the top in the terms ofthe needs quite frequently, and
(20:10):
that requires significantdiscernment on the part of the
deacon as they're trying to sortthrough things, and usually
these things present themselvesas an emergency.
It's usually when it comes tothe deacon, it's a full-on
emergency and someone needs toact in a very short period of
time, and there certainly is atime and a place for that.
But I do think the other,insofar as it's possible and
(20:34):
it's not always possible fordeacons to prospectively or
proactively begin to look at thepeople over whose charge they
have and begin to make inroadsinto their circumstances,
generally speaking, so they havea sense of where folks are
prior to things coming up.
Peter Haines (20:53):
Yeah, that kind of touches on one of the questions
I have written down is you knowthe church.
We're members of the same body.
We want to assist each other,but the church isn't a bank.
The church is not an insurancepolicy and the deacons they want
to do the ministry, the mercyof Christ to others, and yet
(21:15):
they want to try to figure outhow to be proactive, like you're
saying, to look ahead and seeoh, maybe this is something we
can think about.
So I would say, if you've got ayoung couple you know they're
having a baby, take 10 minutes,sit down with them and say, hey,
your family's growing.
Have you guys thought aboutinsurances that you may be able
(21:38):
to get in place?
Get some term life?
Your kids are going to be inyour house for 18, 20 years.
You've got college coming.
You've got other things coming.
Are these things that you cantake a little time now, invest a
small seed amount and watch itgrow?
That's kind of point of alittle bit what we're looking at
(21:59):
, what we're talking about.
Kris Lehner (22:01):
James in the first chapter of verse 27, says Pure
and undefiled religion in thesight of our God and Father is
this to visit orphans and widowsin their distress.
And we have orphans and widowsin distress for a variety of
reasons, not simply financial,but they're in distress because
they don't have the resourcesthat they need.
(22:21):
From a diaconal standpoint atleast my experience, you can
spend all your diaconal timewith widows and orphans.
I mean, the issues just arenever ending and it's not their
fault.
James puts this verse there.
Real religion is this widowsand orphans.
Prominently, we've had friendswho were well off, who died
(22:46):
without enough life insuranceand left well-off families
destitute.
So the outside world would lookat that situation in the house
and the fancy European cars andsay, oh, they're fine and
because somebody didn't doplanning that they could have
done.
You had a family that wentthrough extreme suffering.
(23:07):
We would say unnecessary,because God had provided the
mechanism of insurance.
They just didn't use it.
In fact, they actually said noand we've seen that time and
again.
We're not in this life going toget rid of all the diaconal
issues, but it'd be nice to seeone less widow and orphan
(23:28):
suffering like this.
So one of the things thatattracted David and I to our
work is because we do enjoyhelping people and that might
sound like an odd statement asit relates to insurance, but
it's just how the Lord createdus and it is what we do.
But it is one of those thingswhere, when you are purchasing
(23:49):
insurance, specifically life anddisability insurance you're not
doing something for yourself,you're doing something for
someone other than yourself,particularly with life insurance
.
You're not doing something foryourself, you're doing something
for someone other than yourself, particularly with life
insurance.
You're paying money forsomething that you yourself are
not going to see the benefit ofin this life, but those you
leave behind will, and thediaconate, the church, the
(24:14):
widows and the orphans would begreatly helped out if folks were
able to cover themselves at anadequate level and not everybody
can, so this is not law.
If they can, it would be greatto do that.
David Drake (24:31):
Yeah, and I think, peter, earlier you mentioned you
know the thought of well, youknow we're going to depend on
the Lord instead.
And I remember years and yearsago going through, I think,
brohl's Holiness of God seriesprobably a hundred sermons on
that and in the middle of itsaying someone had said that to
him, if I'm remembering itcorrectly, and he said to the
person who had said that, well,he's going to have to if you
(24:54):
don't.
It's something like that, right, and I think that kind of falls
into the Timothy Five thoughtof it.
And I would caveat it with whatChris said, because not
everyone can do this.
So it's not judging someonewho's unable, but if anyone is
able and chooses not to providefor relatives, and especially
(25:15):
members of their own household,you know that's an issue Because
, again, if they're able to, youdon't just buy it with money,
buy it with good health, bypassing an exam, typically.
You know it's a good thing todo that and then to circle
around back to your otherquestion.
You know, rather than justsaying to the widow or to the
elderly, you know, in anexasperated kind of a frustrated
(25:36):
fashion, together with them gee, it's too late, I think in this
situation where a man dies onthe younger side and a wife has
to work, continue to support herfamily, to be able to counsel
her in the way that Chris saidearlier and just get in front of
a life insurance professionalto have a calculation done about
how much you need and to makesure also that associated legal
(26:00):
documents are in place for trustfor those minor children and
that good arrangements are madefor that and the disposition of
whatever assets may be there andto take care of the money on
behalf of children, that thosekinds of choices are made as
well for widows and that shewould be assisted in that way.
For the elderly, an awful lot ofthe training I call it training
(26:24):
it's actually more mandatorythan that that Chris and I have
had to undergo in the lastdecade has been around sales of
products to seniors, becausethey do so very often get taken
advantage of, and so that's areally important category for
deacons to be alert to.
People who prey on the elderlyare trying to use really good
(26:46):
motivations to harm them in manyways.
I would say probably an exampleof that would be people who
think that they want to makesure that they have a quote
unquote last expense policy orburial policy that's going to
alleviate the expense from theirfamily of having to take care
of a funeral, the price of whichhas gone up just so much in the
(27:10):
last number of years, you knowinstead being sold something
that only pays often for anaccident, an accidental death,
something like that.
So to be in a position to reviewa potential purchase, even if
it's a deacon offering to, couldI, you know, I'm happy to read
through that for you to see if Isee anything that you don't see
in that regard.
(27:31):
The other types of policiesthat actually do pay off for the
elderly if they buy them,sometimes don't ask very many
medical questions but have verylimited coverage if someone dies
right away.
Also, they can be extremelyexpensive.
So you know it may be someoneasked me to quote this recently
(27:52):
and for $25,000 or $40,000policy, the premium might be
$4,000 or $5,000 a year and youjust look at that and go okay,
how is your health really?
Because you could pay more inpremiums than the death benefit
pretty quickly on that.
So let's put our heads togetherabout that and see is it really
worth it?
So those would be a fewcategories.
I think that would be helpfulto be paying attention to be a
(28:14):
few categories.
Kris Lehner (28:15):
I think that would be helpful to be able to choose.
I think there are going to becertain deacons who are
predisposed, who are beingcomfortable with this
conversation, and others who arenot, and that's just how we're
all built.
Some of us feel verycomfortable in this space and
others don't.
I think, again, going back toperspective, david and I would
almost call it fact-finding youknow you're looking for what is
(28:37):
a need or what could become apotential need in the church, or
maybe how do we help avoid itor how do we address it prior to
becoming an emergency.
In my experience, some of thesethings are formal and some of
these things are not.
It's always nice to find anopportunity to be in someone's
natural surrounding with them.
You know, if you're helpingthem rake leaves on a Saturday,
(29:03):
you're actually going to findout more about what's going on
in their lives than if you meetthem necessarily for coffee in
the church hall after the sermon.
So there, I would encouragedeacons as much as possible to
spend as much time with theirfolks as possible in what I
would call natural settings,maybe their home again helping
with a project.
And that's a good way, becausethings come up in conversation
(29:24):
that you would not necessarilyexpect, which are going to lead
us to establishing a potentialneed for something,
acknowledging again what yousaid is the church is not a bank
and the church is not aninsurance company but those, I
think, are really good settingsto figure out something that's
happening before it happens.
Peter Haines (29:45):
Good advice.
I sure appreciate it.
Anything else to consider?
That's also a very goodquestion.
But you talked about somedisability insurances and life
insurances.
On the personal side, Is thereany type of church insurance
that would cover the people ofthe church?
There's not, is there Nothing?
It all boils down to individualpolicies for individual
(30:07):
liability.
Kris Lehner (30:08):
For most folks.
If a person works for a largeremployer, it's not uncommon that
their employer will offercoverage or already covers
people for certain things likedisability, short-term
disability, perhaps evenlong-term care.
That's common.
It's also common that if youwork for and again this depends
on the company, generally thesize of the company you'll
(30:28):
actually be able to have theoption of buying up a little bit
, and those are generally prettygood options, particularly
since you don't have to provegood health to get those People
that are self-employed three ofus, you know we're in a
different circumstance.
We have to make sure that we goout and get this stuff for
ourselves.
We need to be intentional aboutit.
So our self-employed people,however, our pastors, are almost
(30:52):
exactly in the same situation.
Each church in the OPC almostand I know this not legally and
not technically, but at leastfrom a benefits perspective it's
going to look very much like asmall business.
So those are factors andmatters that really should be
addressed in full, to the extentthat it's possible.
(31:12):
To the extent that it'spossible and David and I fully
appreciate that it's not alwayspossible in every church to
approach that perfectly and theway we'd all like to see it done
but to the extent that it canbe it should be.
I know the OPC Committee onMinisterial Care has provided
some avenues for the ministersto buy particular forms of
(31:33):
insurance which should hopefullymake some of these decisions
easier for them or at leastbring costs down and move, not
require certain evidence ofinsurability.
Peter Haines (31:47):
And I also know that they have really good
interaction with developing aplan and they offer to many of
our ministers, when they reach acertain age, consultation and
financial advising, which isreally great.
Not many denominations can saythey do that and that's a thing
where our Committee onMinisterial Care cares for our
ministers, which is really good.
Kris Lehner (32:08):
In its larger context.
Insurance is one of thosethings, peter, that, at least
insofar as it concerns theindividual, or if it's an
individual business owner oreven our pastor, the type and
the amount of insurance thatthey have really is part of
their financial plan.
So it's not this thing there byitself, it's part of the whole,
and it should be considered aspart of the whole if a person
(32:31):
has the ability to do that.
Peter Haines (32:33):
All right.
Well, in conclusion, I think wecan say there are many options
to consider.
We can't say if there's a rightor an absolute, proper way to
protect ourselves and the churchfrom liability, but there are
prudent choices that we can makethat may ease our burden.
By God's grace, to his glory, Iwant to give thanks to Chris
and David for being here today.
Kris Lehner (32:53):
Great to meet you.
Thank you very much.
Peter Haines (32:58):
We appreciate you sharing your experience in the
area of your insurance Deacons.
We hope that this episode washelpful to you as you serve your
congregation.
We'd love to hear feedback onthis episode.
On other episodes, feel free totext us using the what Did you
Think Text Us link just abovethe program notes on your
podcast player.
David Nakhla (33:26):
text us link just above the program notes on your
podcast player.
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode, my name is Peter Haynes
(00:20):
.
Peter Haines (00:21):
I live in the mountains of northern Arizona, I
attend Concho Valley OrthodoxPresbyterian Church and, by
God's grace, I serve as an elderthere, as well as on the OPC
committee on diaphal ministries.
Today, on the Reformed Deacon,I'll be talking with two OPC
elders, chris Lehner and DavidDrake, about personal insurance.
Chris is an elder at EmanuelOPC in Medford, new Jersey.
(00:43):
Before that, he served as adeacon for four years.
Chris is co-owner of a benefitsconsulting firm.
David's an elder at Trinity OPCin Hatboro, pennsylvania, and
has served also as a deacon fortwo years.
David and Chris, along withanother Christian business
partner, own an insurance andbenefits practice that serves
(01:04):
both private and corporateclients.
Thank you, chris and David, fortaking the time to be here
today to lend your expertise.
Thanks for having us.
David Drake (01:11):
Yeah, thank you, peter, it's good to be with you.
Peter Haines (01:13):
When we think about finances and things like
insurance, we can look to versessuch as Psalm 24, 1, which says
the earth is the Lord's and thefullness thereof, the world and
those who dwell therein.
God created Adam to tend hisgarden.
We also need to practice thatkind of stewardship in our lives
.
And 1 Timothy 5, 8, which saysbut if anyone does not provide
(01:34):
for his relatives, andespecially for members of his
household, he has denied thefaith and is worse than an
unbeliever.
This command can beaccomplished by family members
and members of the church caringfor one another and by way of
the deacons, as they care withinas well as outside of the
church.
One of the ways deacons canhelp us is to guide us through
difficult decisions likeinsurance.
(01:56):
Insurance can be a multifacetedand confusing topic, made even
more complicated by trying tomanage it from a Christian
perspective.
We're going to try to breakthrough that confusion with
Chris and David's help, as wetry to aid deacons in their work
with their congregations.
Today, we'll focus on personalinsurance.
I was able to find six types ofpersonal insurance Homeowners,
(02:19):
renters, health, life, auto andshort and long-term disability.
Does that exhaust the list?
Yeah?
David Drake (02:27):
you might consider another couple, and Chris might
be able to think of a couple ofadditions.
Long-term care insurance wouldbe one to cover the costs of
long-term care, either in afacility or to obtain care at
home, and then perhaps annuitiesthat are income-oriented, that
(02:48):
people can't outlive an incomestream if they're concerned
about that.
Peter Haines (02:53):
So let's talk a little bit about homeowners
insurance.
David Drake (02:56):
So, believe it or not, I actually have a license,
but we don't really do insurancethat has to do with things.
We focus on insurance that hasto do with people.
However, I guess, justgenerally speaking, a lot of
these things are risk managementtopics, and so, yes,
homeowner's insurance, renter'sinsurance, things of that nature
are important.
(03:16):
Auto insurance and then the onethat I did see that was perhaps
worthy of mention, that wasn'tlisted necessarily be umbrella
coverage, which would extend thecoverage of some of these
products for additional coverage, including things like
protecting one legally againstcertain items and things of that
nature.
So, again, they're in thecategory of risk management
(03:39):
concerning the things that weown and things that are done,
and liabilities and things ofthat nature.
But, generally speaking, weprovide products that have to do
with human risk dying andbecoming disabled, becoming sick
, unable to work, things of thatnature.
Peter Haines (03:56):
Okay, you know your field really well.
You eat it, you breathe it, yousleep it.
Someone comes up to me and saysI don't know anything about
HVAC and I tell them a couplethings that I think are
rudimentary and nothing to me,and they go oh, that's wonderful
.
Thank you so much.
You know you've given me thisgreat tip because it's just,
(04:16):
it's not what we think about.
So having you guys to sharefrom your point of view, I think
is going to be very helpful toguys who listen.
And if you search for you knowwhat do I do as a deacon for
insurance?
There's nothing out there.
Kris Lehner (04:28):
There is what we know about insurance, and then
there's how does what we knowabout insurance help deacons and
I think any of us in the churchhas thought about these things
or experienced these things.
Usually the deacon is cominginto contact with something
after the fact.
Usually the deacon is cominginto contact with something
after the fact, meaning a needhas arisen which may or may not
have been mitigated againstthrough the use of insurance.
(04:50):
It's not always possible to dothat, but sometimes it is.
Peter Haines (04:54):
Yeah, can you talk a bit about the human risk and
how you can see it affecting thework of the deacons in the
church?
Kris Lehner (05:01):
So, if we think broadly about it, I guess the
first category that I wouldthink about again from the
diaconal and I'm also thinkingabout deacons that may be
involved in the budgetingprocess or might be involved as
treasurers as well you do see alot of deacons who act in that
capacity as well, and thatbegins to think about.
(05:22):
We have our pastors and we arethinking about benefits packages
for them, and no one became adeacon and no one became an
elder, I don't think becausethey thought they wanted to be
an HR representative.
That was not generally part ofthe job title.
But on this side of eternity,these are practical matters that
(05:45):
in caring for the physicalneeds of our people, our pastor
is a person that we should bethinking about.
So I think one of the thingsthat we want to make sure that
we're able to do and if mypastor ever listens to this, I
hope he thinks that we did agood job for him or at least got
as much as we could for him,thinks that we did a good job
for him or at least got as muchas we could for him is we want
(06:10):
to make sure that if he'sdisabled, that his income would
continue without the churchhaving to pay in addition to it,
meaning have an insurancecompany paying the pastor's
salary instead of the church nothaving a pastor because they're
disabled and still paying theirsalary.
So I think we want to make surethat our pastors have good
disability coverage so theyexperience a disability claim,
their incomes would continue.
And then, secondarily, I thinkvery simply, we want to make
(06:32):
sure that our pastors haveenough life insurance so that if
they pass away prior to the endof their working careers, their
families are not left in aposition where they now become a
diaconal matter.
Families are not left in aposition where they now become a
diaconal matter.
I don't know necessarily thatevery deacon is going to be able
to weigh in on this, but it issomething, broadly speaking, for
us as a church to think about.
(06:53):
How do we do a good jobproviding for our pastors?
It's probably an awkwardconversation for a deacon to
have with other men in thechurch or single folks in the
church or heads of households,but making sure that there's
adequate, again, disability andlife insurance in our view will
(07:15):
be preventative of creating asignificant diaconal issue down
the road.
So if mom or dad passes away,the surviving family has
adequate resource to continuefinancially.
The one thing I do see comingup I confess I'm surprised by
this.
Sometimes it's not uncommon fora deacon to be working with
(07:37):
someone who is going or may havea pending medical issue where
they might need a medicalprocedure done and they might be
on the lower end of the incomescale.
They might be an hourly workerand it might not be obvious to
them or they might not knowabout some of the health
insurance plans that are offeredthrough the exchange that they
could get literally at little tono cost.
(07:59):
That would help cover thoseanticipated medical procedures
cover those anticipated medicalprocedures.
So I think I've noticed that acouple times that simply guiding
somebody to the exchange ishelpful in getting them the
medical insurance that they need.
I don't think that what we justcovered was exhaustive, but
does that begin to address yourquestion, peter?
Peter Haines (08:19):
Yeah, no, I think that's very helpful.
The care of ministers is one ofthe things that falls on the
elders and the deacon in thechurch.
If we ask the question, are youcovered, Do you have what you
need in place?
And you know, actually take thetime to ask the hard question,
because sometimes it'suncomfortable Are you thinking
about the future today?
Kris Lehner (08:39):
I think what David would agree with is over the
course of our careers, it isvery common for someone to say I
don't care if they're a pastoror not.
Do you have disabilityinsurance?
And the question is always yeah, I have it click, without
actually looking at how much doyou have?
Meaning would that actuallyprovide enough coverage to make
(09:00):
sure that your family could livethe way they're living today?
And with pastors in particular,we have significant portion of
their pay is expressed ashousing allowance and different
insurance companies anddifferent insurance contracts
will consider that differentlyMeaning.
Some will say let's make it verysimple.
Let's just say $25,000 issalary and $25,000 is housing
(09:24):
allowance.
There are carriers who, bycontract, will only insure the
base $25,000 salary, even thoughthat only represents 50% of the
pastor's income.
So those are the types ofthings where engaging an
insurance professional to go andlook at that and make sure that
that contract would actuallycover both and to make sure that
(09:46):
the full in my example the full50,000 is being covered,
because it's not uncommon thatsomeone has $500 a month of
disability and is not aware thatthat doesn't cover the entire
salary.
Peter Haines (09:58):
That makes sense.
Some of the people I've talkedto, as we're growing this idea
of checking with people are youcovered for disability?
Do you have health insurance?
A lot of people say, well, Itrust God he's going to provide,
and I mean the end of the day,the beginning of the day.
We all know trusting God isexactly what we need to do, but
he has given us the means totake a look and choose benefit
(10:23):
packages that will help us.
I know I work for myself, sofor me, I had to do a little
more homework because myemployer doesn't give me
insurances.
Are there things that we couldtalk about that maybe would be
beneficial for deacons to thinkabout in offering people
direction where they can look?
You mentioned the exchange forinsurance.
David Drake (10:46):
Well, I think you know again, in that kind of
situation, peter, you have tothink about a lot of different
things that an employer is notdoing for you because you have
to.
You know you're working foryourself and things like
retirement plans obviously, kindof you know, stand out and in
terms of other kinds ofinsurance, obviously life
(11:06):
insurance stands out as well asdisability insurance.
You know a lot of employersthese days will give an employee
a particular multiple of salarythree times income to a maximum
of a certain amount of coverage, five times income up to you
know, half a million dollars orsomething like that.
Five times income up to half amillion dollars or something
(11:27):
like that.
And if we're working forourselves, we have to kind of
think about that for our ownfamily and think about how much
is appropriate to own and whatkind is appropriate to own given
one's economic situation, networth, income level, those kinds
of things.
So yeah, those are all thingsthat really need to be
(11:48):
considered by people who areself-employed.
It is an awkward situation Ithink Chris mentioned it before
not just for deacons but forprofessionals in our business
within the context of the churchand I confess I let people
obviously know what I do, havealways done that, but have not
solicited business within thechurch.
(12:09):
However, invariably someonewill come occasionally and ask
for help, and so that's kind ofhow that happens.
So it's an interesting thing.
I'm sort of encouraged thatyou're thinking about this as
deacons in that respect, becauseif it's hard for a deacon, it's
even more difficult for someonein the occupation of insurance
agent to sort of raise theirhand, because you know you
(12:32):
really want to be seen as afriend and a brother in Christ
first and foremost.
I think I'm probably the oldestone on this podcast.
I remember the days when therewere all kinds of pyramid
schemes happening inside thechurches across America and
people finally becoming so fedup that they'd said things like
(12:52):
you know, are you my brother inChrist or are you my salesman?
You know what I mean, and soI've always we've always wanted
not to do that, but at the sametime, you know, you want to be
available to help people if theydo need help in these
categories.
Peter Haines (13:07):
So if a member came to a deacon, a member of
the church, and says I'm soconfused by my insurance
policies there's so much herewhat would you suggest would be
the first step in offering help?
What would you say?
It's very broad, very like Idon't even know what to do here.
Where do we start?
Kris Lehner (13:24):
If that question were posed to David or myself,
the first thing that David and Iwould try to figure out is are
we talking about casualtyinsurance Are we talking about?
And when I say the wordcasualty, I'm referring to
things, not people and then ifthis is something that pertains
to people, so if it pertains tocasualty, we would want to make
(13:45):
sure that we got a good casualtyagent that we can trust to
review it and to offer theircommentary on it, and David and
I would probably do the samething if it was not that.
So the question with insuranceand David feel free to jump in
when I say this, it's notgenerally is what I have bad.
(14:05):
The question is almost alwaysdo I have enough?
And I don't want that to soundoverzealous, but most people
don't.
They don't generally haveenough.
If you think about whatever aperson's income is, if you look
at your age and say, okay, if Ineed to replace that for my wife
(14:27):
and children, or for thehusband and for the kids, if I
need to replace that, how muchis appropriate?
And that's a simple financialcalculation that most
professional agents can perform.
A financial planner can performthat, and in our world we just
say it's probably some versionof the net present value of your
earnings is a number we wouldlook at for making sure that
(14:50):
person's insured properly.
But I guess, peter, the answeris seeking wise counsel and
seeking a professional.
Peter Haines (15:00):
Yeah, that's great .
So you mentioned the word netpresent value.
Can you define that for us laypeople?
Kris Lehner (15:07):
Yeah, sure.
So I used the $50,000 examplebefore of a sample pastor and if
that pastor is 40 years old andthey're going to work till
they're 65, it's not 50 times 25is the amount of money that
they would need in lifeinsurance.
Net present value very simplysays if I calculated how much
(15:30):
money I need to have for thatnext 25 years and I assumed a
particular interest rate, thenet present value meaning how
much money do I need todaythat's going to generate that
$50,000 for the next 25 years.
That's a net present.
So it's not going to be 50times 25.
It's going to be a smallernumber and it's a calculation
(15:51):
that someone's going to do on afinancial calculator or an Excel
spreadsheet.
And I say it's a smaller numberbecause most people get afraid
when they think, okay, 50 times25 is going to be this enormous
number.
It's really not when you factorin interest on the proceeds
when they come in in the form ofa death claim.
Peter Haines (16:09):
That's helpful, thank you.
Most of the time when I thinkabout insurance, I think, oh, I
should have done this 10 yearsago.
So we get into the diagonalsituations with elderly folks
and with widows in our church.
What are things that we can sayto them that would be helpful,
instead of saying, oops, toolate, but we could say, well,
you've made some choices thatwere good, but let's make some
(16:31):
better choices today, movingforward.
What kind of examples could yougive for that?
David Drake (16:35):
I think those are really important things to
address.
If we could take one step backbefore we get to those points,
it would perhaps be helpful aswell.
Just one note to tag onto theend of Chris's thought about the
calculation involved.
You had mentioned permanentinsurance and term insurance in
(16:57):
some of the notes that we'vetraded, and one of the notes
mentioned, you know, the youngeryou are and the healthier you
are is when it's best to acquirethese things, and that's really
true regardless of the type ofinsurance.
But I guess what I'm driving atas a precursor to answering
your question is these days thatreally are as long as you're in
decent health, as long as youto answering your question is,
(17:17):
these days that are really areas long as you're in decent
health, as long as you're inrelatively good health, it's
possible to obtain at least sometemporary amount of coverage
that would cover one while thechildren are growing up, or
perhaps until retirement time,in the form of term insurance.
One quick footnote on that.
That's extremely important whenyou know you talked about the
(17:39):
hypothetical person coming inwith their policies and saying I
don't know what I have or Idon't know what to do about this
.
One of the important thingsabout different kinds of term
insurance these days is thatmost policies 20 years ago would
offer the person the ability,just with a signature and an
extra check, to say you don'thave to go through an additional
(18:01):
medical exam or anything likethat.
You bought a 10-year termpolicy or 15 or 20-year term
policy and you could keep thatin the same health class for the
rest of your life.
If you just want to convert theterm insurance, these days the
majority of term plans don'toffer that, so it takes a lot
more homework to figure out.
(18:21):
What are the contractualprovisions in what used to be
this plain old term insurancepolicy.
They're very, very differentthese days than they used to be
in terms of what do I do when Iget to the end of them if I
still need a little bit ofcoverage for some period of time
in my life?
Also, there are folks atdifferent economic levels,
different economic places on thespectrum, and sometimes people
(18:48):
want to leave the insurance asan inheritance for their
children or their children'schildren, as the case may be,
and so that's available as wellif it's something that fits
within someone's budget.
And then there are folks amongus who have very high net worths
who utilize that to pay taxesso their family can keep the
rest of the assets that they puttogether.
But the point being thatthere's something for everyone
(19:10):
along the spectrum of lifeinsurance products, regardless,
really, of where they fall inthe economic spectrum, but it
does take a little bit ofhomework to find what's best
suited for them in terms of theamount and the type that's
available for them.
Kris Lehner (19:24):
One of the things that the diaconate deals with
with extreme frequency aregenerally forget, insurance for
a second, generally speaking,financial matters.
It's you know, I think mostpeople serve as deacons because
they want to help.
You know, god hardwired them tocome to the aid and assistance
(19:48):
of other folks or, statedanother way, they may even be on
the lookout for their brothersand sisters to see where a need
is where they can jump in.
However, what I think I'veprobably noticed, maybe in the
last 15 to 20 years, thatfinancial matters seem to bubble
up to the top in the terms ofthe needs quite frequently, and
(20:10):
that requires significantdiscernment on the part of the
deacon as they're trying to sortthrough things, and usually
these things present themselvesas an emergency.
It's usually when it comes tothe deacon, it's a full-on
emergency and someone needs toact in a very short period of
time, and there certainly is atime and a place for that.
But I do think the other,insofar as it's possible and
(20:34):
it's not always possible fordeacons to prospectively or
proactively begin to look at thepeople over whose charge they
have and begin to make inroadsinto their circumstances,
generally speaking, so they havea sense of where folks are
prior to things coming up.
Peter Haines (20:53):
Yeah, that kind of touches on one of the questions
I have written down is you knowthe church.
We're members of the same body.
We want to assist each other,but the church isn't a bank.
The church is not an insurancepolicy and the deacons they want
to do the ministry, the mercyof Christ to others, and yet
(21:15):
they want to try to figure outhow to be proactive, like you're
saying, to look ahead and seeoh, maybe this is something we
can think about.
So I would say, if you've got ayoung couple you know they're
having a baby, take 10 minutes,sit down with them and say, hey,
your family's growing.
Have you guys thought aboutinsurances that you may be able
(21:38):
to get in place?
Get some term life?
Your kids are going to be inyour house for 18, 20 years.
You've got college coming.
You've got other things coming.
Are these things that you cantake a little time now, invest a
small seed amount and watch itgrow?
That's kind of point of alittle bit what we're looking at
(21:59):
, what we're talking about.
Kris Lehner (22:01):
James in the first chapter of verse 27, says Pure
and undefiled religion in thesight of our God and Father is
this to visit orphans and widowsin their distress.
And we have orphans and widowsin distress for a variety of
reasons, not simply financial,but they're in distress because
they don't have the resourcesthat they need.
(22:21):
From a diaconal standpoint atleast my experience, you can
spend all your diaconal timewith widows and orphans.
I mean, the issues just arenever ending and it's not their
fault.
James puts this verse there.
Real religion is this widowsand orphans.
Prominently, we've had friendswho were well off, who died
(22:46):
without enough life insuranceand left well-off families
destitute.
So the outside world would lookat that situation in the house
and the fancy European cars andsay, oh, they're fine and
because somebody didn't doplanning that they could have
done.
You had a family that wentthrough extreme suffering.
(23:07):
We would say unnecessary,because God had provided the
mechanism of insurance.
They just didn't use it.
In fact, they actually said noand we've seen that time and
again.
We're not in this life going toget rid of all the diaconal
issues, but it'd be nice to seeone less widow and orphan
(23:28):
suffering like this.
So one of the things thatattracted David and I to our
work is because we do enjoyhelping people and that might
sound like an odd statement asit relates to insurance, but
it's just how the Lord createdus and it is what we do.
But it is one of those thingswhere, when you are purchasing
(23:49):
insurance, specifically life anddisability insurance you're not
doing something for yourself,you're doing something for
someone other than yourself,particularly with life insurance
.
You're not doing something foryourself, you're doing something
for someone other than yourself, particularly with life
insurance.
You're paying money forsomething that you yourself are
not going to see the benefit ofin this life, but those you
leave behind will, and thediaconate, the church, the
(24:14):
widows and the orphans would begreatly helped out if folks were
able to cover themselves at anadequate level and not everybody
can, so this is not law.
If they can, it would be greatto do that.
David Drake (24:31):
Yeah, and I think, peter, earlier you mentioned you
know the thought of well, youknow we're going to depend on
the Lord instead.
And I remember years and yearsago going through, I think,
brohl's Holiness of God seriesprobably a hundred sermons on
that and in the middle of itsaying someone had said that to
him, if I'm remembering itcorrectly, and he said to the
person who had said that, well,he's going to have to if you
(24:54):
don't.
It's something like that, right, and I think that kind of falls
into the Timothy Five thoughtof it.
And I would caveat it with whatChris said, because not
everyone can do this.
So it's not judging someonewho's unable, but if anyone is
able and chooses not to providefor relatives, and especially
(25:15):
members of their own household,you know that's an issue Because
, again, if they're able to, youdon't just buy it with money,
buy it with good health, bypassing an exam, typically.
You know it's a good thing todo that and then to circle
around back to your otherquestion.
You know, rather than justsaying to the widow or to the
elderly, you know, in anexasperated kind of a frustrated
(25:36):
fashion, together with them gee, it's too late, I think in this
situation where a man dies onthe younger side and a wife has
to work, continue to support herfamily, to be able to counsel
her in the way that Chris saidearlier and just get in front of
a life insurance professionalto have a calculation done about
how much you need and to makesure also that associated legal
(26:00):
documents are in place for trustfor those minor children and
that good arrangements are madefor that and the disposition of
whatever assets may be there andto take care of the money on
behalf of children, that thosekinds of choices are made as
well for widows and that shewould be assisted in that way.
For the elderly, an awful lot ofthe training I call it training
(26:24):
it's actually more mandatorythan that that Chris and I have
had to undergo in the lastdecade has been around sales of
products to seniors, becausethey do so very often get taken
advantage of, and so that's areally important category for
deacons to be alert to.
People who prey on the elderlyare trying to use really good
(26:46):
motivations to harm them in manyways.
I would say probably an exampleof that would be people who
think that they want to makesure that they have a quote
unquote last expense policy orburial policy that's going to
alleviate the expense from theirfamily of having to take care
of a funeral, the price of whichhas gone up just so much in the
(27:10):
last number of years, you knowinstead being sold something
that only pays often for anaccident, an accidental death,
something like that.
So to be in a position to reviewa potential purchase, even if
it's a deacon offering to, couldI, you know, I'm happy to read
through that for you to see if Isee anything that you don't see
in that regard.
(27:31):
The other types of policiesthat actually do pay off for the
elderly if they buy them,sometimes don't ask very many
medical questions but have verylimited coverage if someone dies
right away.
Also, they can be extremelyexpensive.
So you know it may be someoneasked me to quote this recently
(27:52):
and for $25,000 or $40,000policy, the premium might be
$4,000 or $5,000 a year and youjust look at that and go okay,
how is your health really?
Because you could pay more inpremiums than the death benefit
pretty quickly on that.
So let's put our heads togetherabout that and see is it really
worth it?
So those would be a fewcategories.
I think that would be helpfulto be paying attention to be a
(28:14):
few categories.
Kris Lehner (28:15):
I think that would be helpful to be able to choose.
I think there are going to becertain deacons who are
predisposed, who are beingcomfortable with this
conversation, and others who arenot, and that's just how we're
all built.
Some of us feel verycomfortable in this space and
others don't.
I think, again, going back toperspective, david and I would
almost call it fact-finding youknow you're looking for what is
(28:37):
a need or what could become apotential need in the church, or
maybe how do we help avoid itor how do we address it prior to
becoming an emergency.
In my experience, some of thesethings are formal and some of
these things are not.
It's always nice to find anopportunity to be in someone's
natural surrounding with them.
You know, if you're helpingthem rake leaves on a Saturday,
(29:03):
you're actually going to findout more about what's going on
in their lives than if you meetthem necessarily for coffee in
the church hall after the sermon.
So there, I would encouragedeacons as much as possible to
spend as much time with theirfolks as possible in what I
would call natural settings,maybe their home again helping
with a project.
And that's a good way, becausethings come up in conversation
(29:24):
that you would not necessarilyexpect, which are going to lead
us to establishing a potentialneed for something,
acknowledging again what yousaid is the church is not a bank
and the church is not aninsurance company but those, I
think, are really good settingsto figure out something that's
happening before it happens.
Peter Haines (29:45):
Good advice.
I sure appreciate it.
Anything else to consider?
That's also a very goodquestion.
But you talked about somedisability insurances and life
insurances.
On the personal side, Is thereany type of church insurance
that would cover the people ofthe church?
There's not, is there Nothing?
It all boils down to individualpolicies for individual
(30:07):
liability.
Kris Lehner (30:08):
For most folks.
If a person works for a largeremployer, it's not uncommon that
their employer will offercoverage or already covers
people for certain things likedisability, short-term
disability, perhaps evenlong-term care.
That's common.
It's also common that if youwork for and again this depends
on the company, generally thesize of the company you'll
(30:28):
actually be able to have theoption of buying up a little bit
, and those are generally prettygood options, particularly
since you don't have to provegood health to get those People
that are self-employed three ofus, you know we're in a
different circumstance.
We have to make sure that we goout and get this stuff for
ourselves.
We need to be intentional aboutit.
So our self-employed people,however, our pastors, are almost
(30:52):
exactly in the same situation.
Each church in the OPC almostand I know this not legally and
not technically, but at leastfrom a benefits perspective it's
going to look very much like asmall business.
So those are factors andmatters that really should be
addressed in full, to the extentthat it's possible.
(31:12):
To the extent that it'spossible and David and I fully
appreciate that it's not alwayspossible in every church to
approach that perfectly and theway we'd all like to see it done
but to the extent that it canbe it should be.
I know the OPC Committee onMinisterial Care has provided
some avenues for the ministersto buy particular forms of
(31:33):
insurance which should hopefullymake some of these decisions
easier for them or at leastbring costs down and move, not
require certain evidence ofinsurability.
Peter Haines (31:47):
And I also know that they have really good
interaction with developing aplan and they offer to many of
our ministers, when they reach acertain age, consultation and
financial advising, which isreally great.
Not many denominations can saythey do that and that's a thing
where our Committee onMinisterial Care cares for our
ministers, which is really good.
Kris Lehner (32:08):
In its larger context.
Insurance is one of thosethings, peter, that, at least
insofar as it concerns theindividual, or if it's an
individual business owner oreven our pastor, the type and
the amount of insurance thatthey have really is part of
their financial plan.
So it's not this thing there byitself, it's part of the whole,
and it should be considered aspart of the whole if a person
(32:31):
has the ability to do that.
Peter Haines (32:33):
All right.
Well, in conclusion, I think wecan say there are many options
to consider.
We can't say if there's a rightor an absolute, proper way to
protect ourselves and the churchfrom liability, but there are
prudent choices that we can makethat may ease our burden.
By God's grace, to his glory, Iwant to give thanks to Chris
and David for being here today.
Kris Lehner (32:53):
Great to meet you.
Thank you very much.
Peter Haines (32:58):
We appreciate you sharing your experience in the
area of your insurance Deacons.
We hope that this episode washelpful to you as you serve your
congregation.
We'd love to hear feedback onthis episode.
On other episodes, feel free totext us using the what Did you
Think Text Us link just abovethe program notes on your
podcast player.
David Nakhla (33:26):
text us link just above the program notes on your
podcast player.
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