September 16, 2024 • 35 mins
In this episode, host John Stahl, deacon at Emmanuel OPC in Wilmington, DE, and member of the CDM, leads a discussion with three fellow deacons: Lynne Hunter from Harvest OPC in Wyoming, Michigan; Bob Keys from Grace OPC in Columbus, Ohio; and Jared Grigg from Acacia OPC in Manassas, Virginia. The group explores dilemmas with significant long-term implications. They first address a situation involving a member who, due to an accident, requires extensive assistance. They then consider the case of a couple expecting their fourth child who is struggling to make ends meet. These discussions represent the first part of a two-part series.
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lynne Hunter (00:01):
Hey, we had a man that was a teacher and a coach
and now he's doing nothing.
Hold it.
My job is to encourage him togo back and get him back into
life.
David Nakhla (00:16):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
John Stahl (00:35):
Hello, my name is John Stahl and I serve as a
deacon at Emanuel OPC inWilmington, delaware.
I also serve on the OPCCommittee on Diaconal Ministries
.
For this episode of theReformed Deacon, I'm going to
facilitate a discussion group wecall Real World Cases.
This episode will includescenarios that concern members
(00:59):
of a local church, the householdof faith.
I'll describe the cases to ourpanel of deacons and we'll
discuss possible responses toeach case.
These are fictitious situationsbut I think you'll find them
realistic and applicable to yourcongregation.
With me today are three fellowdeacons Bob Keyes from Grace OPC
(01:23):
in Columbus, ohio.
Lynn Hunter at Harvest OPC inWyoming, michigan.
And Jared Grigg at AcaciaReformed Church, a mission work
of the OPC in Manassas, virginia.
Welcome, brothers Howdy.
Jared Grigg (01:38):
Good to be here.
John Stahl (01:40):
Well, let's get started with the first scenario.
Tim has been a member of yourchurch for the past five years.
He has been in a wheelchair foralmost 10 years following a
skiing accident.
He receives disability paymentsfrom Social Security and is
living on that plus what is leftfrom the equity.
(02:00):
When he sold his house afterthe accident, he had been
working as a teacher andfootball coach but has been
unable to find employment sincethe accident.
Tim has no family living athome.
He cannot walk but can use hishands and arms and can generally
take care of himself, though heoften needs transportation to
(02:23):
get to church and to run errands.
He needs to have help cleaninghis apartment twice a month.
The church has a schedule tohelp with both recurring issues.
Although he has been trying,tim has not been able to find
another career.
He has become discouraged andreally doesn't look as actively
(02:43):
as he used to.
Discouraged and really doesn'tlook as actively as he used to.
He's running out of funds andwill soon need to live only on
the disability payments.
You don't know the details ofTim's condition.
He may or may not have futurecomplications as a result of his
injuries.
It seems likely that there willbe some medical issues down the
road due to his long-termconfinement to a wheelchair.
(03:06):
He tries, but it is difficultfor Tim to participate actively
in the church becausetransportation is a challenge.
He really doesn't feelcomfortable having people visit
him at home because he hasdifficulty cleaning his
apartment.
You don't know if he has healthinsurance.
He doesn't really like to talkabout his condition, either
(03:29):
physical or financial.
You assume that the situationmay be worse than he is
admitting.
Tim is requesting assistancewith his rent payments until he
can find employment.
How would you and yourdeaconate approach this request
and this member's related needs?
Jared Grigg (03:51):
Well, I guess I'll start off.
I think this is a complexsituation, but I think at the
top of it, what immediatelycaught my eye when I went
through this scenario was thefact that Tim's discouraged
right, and there's a host ofthings that are discouraging for
Tim right, and so we have atendency as men to come in
because we do have a heart forGod's people and God has called
(04:12):
us to mercy ministry, and wehave a tendency to maybe come in
and want to fix the problemright, or think that we have the
ability to fix the problem insome way.
But at the top of what Timneeds, tim needs to know that
he's loved by the covenantcommunity, and so that's going
to be at the top of my list,before we get into the
logistical things, is how do weas a diaconate locally come
(04:37):
together and pray together sothat we can be and use the
resources of the communityaround us in the congregation to
show Tim that he's loved?
Because Tim doesn't you knowpart of it was, you know he
didn't want people to come intohis house, which means that he
there's a burden of shame thatTim has, and I don't want Tim to
feel shame because ultimately,like we can't fix the problem
(04:59):
for Tim.
We can just come alongside himand, you know, unwrap those
grave clothes that he has on him.
And you know we can't fixpeople's problems, but what we
can do is we can love peoplethrough them.
So that was that's where I wouldstart with Tim.
Now there's a host of otherthings, but that would be my
intro is to pray for Tim andjust really let him know that
(05:21):
he's not alone, because a lot oftimes people in this situation
that have disability or they'reheavily discouraged, they feel
isolated, and so I think our jobas ministers of mercy in the
beginning is to come alongsidethese people and be cheerleaders
and say, hey, you're not alone.
Right, like Jesus wept, weunderstand the pain and the hurt
(05:43):
that you're going through, andthat kind of will motivate
people to get in the rightdirection.
It kind of gets their mindmoving if they know that they're
not alone in the situation.
So that's how I would attackinitially, this.
John Stahl (05:54):
Yeah, I like your answer there, so let's stick
with just that.
The first step really isencouraging this brother in the
Lord.
As a deacon, would you feellike it's the deacon's job to do
that, or is there another wayto incorporate maybe others in
the church?
Bob Keys (06:14):
I thought about one thing in particular Tim needs
God's people but, even moreimportantly, God's people need
Tim.
We need to help Tim.
Help us learn to care for thosewho have a hard time caring for
themselves, to teach usselflessness and true love, true
godly love.
I saw I've been getting readyto teach a course on Paul David
(06:39):
Tripp's book Instruments in theRedeemer's Hands, and there's
one quote in there that I sawjust a few days ago.
That just man, I wish I'm goingto memorize this.
This is diaconal ministry atthe very heart, and I think it's
good for all these scenarios,and this is a quote.
Diaconal ministry is not aboutalways knowing what to say.
(07:00):
It is not about fixingeverything in sight that is
broken.
Diaconal ministry is aboutconnecting people with Christ so
that they are able to think ashe would have them think, desire
what he says is best and dowhat he calls them to do, even
(07:20):
if the circumstances never getfixed.
Even if the circumstances neverget fixed, it involves exposing
hurt, lost and confused peopleto God's glory so that they give
up their pursuit of their ownglory and live for his.
I think that's what all of ourjobs are as deacons, and the
(07:41):
small deacon, in terms of allthe rest of the congregation and
this is the focus I think weneed to have, especially on
long-term diaconal needs is torealize that we are there and we
connect the church with thisneed.
But in the process we areencouraged and benefited as a
church because we learned whatthe love of Christ really looks
(08:04):
like.
John Stahl (08:04):
Benefited as a church because we learned what
the love of Christ really lookslike.
Good, Any other suggestions onthe practical side maybe?
Bob Keys (08:15):
I think he needs a van .
Why did it take 10 years forhim not to get a van?
He could not handle ahandicapped van.
Why?
I mean the church should havegotten a handicapped van for him
some way, somehow with thePresbytery or the CDM, somehow
some way, and the church hasdone this, the Presbytery has
done this, but he needs a van.
I can't believe it's taken 10years not to get a van.
He's not getting around, he'snot able to get outside, he
(08:36):
requires dependency and he needsmore independence.
That's just a clear one for me.
It should have been done 10years ago.
And I know they're expensive,but it's expensive not to have
one for this dear man that hasmany gifts and needs to be using
them in life.
Jared Grigg (08:55):
And that's why it's important to have more than one
deaconess, because other menhave ideas that you didn't even
think about.
I didn't even think about a van, and it's like a blaring, like
well, yeah, he should get a van.
John Stahl (09:08):
A van might even help, not just help him out with
his personal needs as far aswe've already been delineated in
the scenario, but even if hewanted to get some kind of
part-time job that he would beable to do from a wheelchair job
that he would be able to dofrom a wheelchair and, even more
(09:29):
importantly, he couldadminister help to those in the
church by taking them placesrather than them taking him
places.
Bob Keys (09:33):
I mean, get him involved in ministry himself.
He's a coach, he's a teacher.
What in the world?
He's got great gifts ofteaching, encouraging and
blessing other people.
Lynne Hunter (09:45):
He's a gifted man.
I was thinking the same thing,bob.
I look at this and I see, hey,we had a man that was a teacher
and a coach, and now he's doingnothing.
Hold it.
My job is to encourage him togo back and get him back into
life, and so if it starts with avan, that's a great place to
(10:10):
start, but it's also we asbrothers have to encourage him
to realize life didn't stopbecause of an accident.
God put you here for a reason.
There was an accident for areason.
You still need to glorify God.
How do you use your earthlytalents?
We're gifted and we're made towork.
Bob Keys (10:34):
Disability doesn't matter but he can use his hands
and if he uses his hands and hismouth, there's a million, 300
million jobs he can do.
Well, maybe 200 million, butyou know there's so many things
this Tim can do.
He really needs to move aheadwith life, finding the right job
that'll give him a sense of joyand worthwhileness.
(10:57):
Tim needs to somehow move aheadwith what he loves to do and
helping him find that is whatthe deacon should be doing Right
beside him.
Move ahead and find a job thatyou can really minister to other
people with your heart and yoursoul.
John Stahl (11:17):
And it is possible.
I didn't even think about this.
He's a teacher and a coach.
You can teach I would thinkthat you can teach from a
wheelchair, so he could have ajob as a teacher.
He doesn't have to even changehis career.
Necessarily.
It wouldn't be focused on thesports, the physical, Absolutely
(11:38):
indeed, he can still coach.
Lynne Hunter (11:44):
Sure he can, can maybe better as a referee.
I know more than one wheelchaircoach, both on the football
field and on basketball court.
John Stahl (11:51):
These guys coach really well sitting in a
wheelchair and this is why wehave multiple deacons, because
my approach would have been well, let's set him up with a
government job training if hewants to go on a different
career, but he doesn't have to,so why even bother going through
that more difficult and maybeless fulfilling avenue?
Bob Keys (12:16):
I would take him towards a motivational coach.
If he's taught and he's been acoach, I think he could really
be an effective motivationalcoach in life.
I think he could do all kindsof wonderful things to encourage
people, bless people.
You know they're going to lookat him and go.
If he can do it, then I can too.
And I just think that you knowthis is the way to encourage
(12:37):
this man is put him in a placewhere he but 10 years without a
job.
I mean talk about dependency.
They've bred dependency in thisman because they haven't walked
beside him and encouraged himand blessed him.
And I don't think it'd takethat many people in the church
to do this.
A handful could really blessand encourage this Tim through
(13:02):
this time and get him to helpand minister in the church
himself.
Lynne Hunter (13:05):
So you think about what we've just been talking
about how do we get him from thepoint where he's at to back
into his career?
Well, the way I look at it iswe need to get him reinstated
into church life, coming toWednesday night programs, and if
it means that for a year Lynnor Bob or John has to go pick
(13:29):
him up, that's what we do,because while we do that, now
we're fellowshipping.
Now we're getting him to think,hey, I can do this.
We get him to start teachingSunday school, maybe co-teaching
, so that he can realize, oh, Istill have my brain, I still can
teach children or adults.
(13:50):
And we get him so that he getsrid of his depression, gets out
of his apartment and people youknow.
He realizes, hey, this is whatI can do.
And at the same time thedeacons start working on some of
those other bigger problems.
And by the church people seeinghim coming to church, they're
(14:12):
more than willing to help on thevan side, donation or, however,
things like that.
Progress, however, things likethat progress.
John Stahl (14:21):
Now we can give him a van, we can encourage him to
be involved in body life and all, but he still has the rent
payments that he apparently isnot able to make on disability.
So it would seem to me thatthere might be more immediate
(14:43):
suggestions.
Lynne Hunter (14:44):
Immediate need.
I need rent payment, I needfood, I need to help this man
get re-involved in church lifeRent payment and food.
You can set up a timeline andsay okay, hey, for this many
months, while we start doingthese other steps, this is what
we're going to do and you set atime period three months, six
(15:05):
months, nine months, 12 monthsand there's evaluation.
John Stahl (15:10):
Yeah, payments out of the Deacons fund for that.
Lynne Hunter (15:14):
Yeah, yeah, and there's evaluation through these
months.
The reason I have no problempaying for it is because every
time I give him a rent payment,guess what he has to talk to me
Gives me that opportunity totalk to him about.
Hey, how are things going?
(15:35):
How's your walk with Christ?
What are we going to do to moveyou forward?
John Stahl (15:43):
Good point.
Bob Keys (15:44):
As soon as he gets a van.
I think that we need to get himover to our houses and again
get him in the house somewhat,have two guys lift a wheelchair
and get him in Fellowship.
Being in other people's housesas well, I think, is so
important and talking to him andencouraging him, I think again,
the body of Christ can have agreat ministry here and get him
(16:06):
through it so he really believeshe can teach and he can do the
things that we've talked about.
What a blessing.
Jared Grigg (16:12):
Yeah, I think you know, with Tim's situation, you
know, I think you guys aredescribing diaconal mechanics
and you're describing, you know,leading by example, and I think
we have to address the elephantin the room.
It's, in some cases, right,like we may do all these things
for Tim and encourage him, andthen everybody, like we can do
everything right and at the endof the day Tim doesn't progress
(16:33):
forward.
Right, like providing theassistance for the rent, the
electrical, the things, theemergency things that come up.
Right, like we can stop thebleeding.
But ultimately we have tounderstand and be conscious that
Tim has to make that decisionto do better for himself.
Right, we can encourage and wecan push forward.
And I think some deacons, I know, in the beginning, like that
discouraged me because I feltlike I did these things and I
(16:55):
and I spent so long talking toother deacons and trying to work
through this process to helpthis person.
But some of these folks, evenin the public community, it was
almost like they didn't want tohelp themselves and I had to
learn a very hard lesson earlyon that I'm not here to, even
subconsciously, I'm not here tosave people, I'm here to point
(17:15):
them to Christ.
But ultimately that decision toget better.
Whatever their issues are, theyhave to make the decision to do
it.
I can only encourage them, butI can't make the decision for
them to get better, andsometimes they don't.
Bob Keys (17:28):
That's the discouragements of being a
deacon, and any deacon that'sserved for any length of time
goes through those difficultiesof seeing people not respond to
counsel, to wisdom, direction,and there's multiple reasons of
(17:48):
why they don't.
But ours isn't, again, to fix.
Ours is to encourage, to bless,to show mercy without creating
more dependency, and I think allthat we've talked about, I
think, is exactly what we asdeacons do.
But if you haven't had afailure in terms of getting
(18:09):
someone to do what's right andbest, then you haven't been a
deacon very long.
It's hard, deacon work isdifficult, and what was the
verse that talks about the tears, the veil of tears, but we will
reap with a harvest.
It's a Psalm and it's wonderful.
It tells us even in the battlesof life, God will give joy.
John Stahl (18:31):
All right, good.
Any other thoughts on thatparticular scenario?
Okay, good discussion.
Let's continue with the nextcase.
Years Jerry works a full-timebut low-wage job and recently
(19:06):
started a part-time night shiftat a local factory.
Molly indicated she isn't ableto buy the food that she needs
during pregnancy.
They're on a high deductibleinsurance plan and are concerned
they won't be able to pay thebills for the birth.
The wife's family lives locallybut doesn't attend church.
They've started to accrue somecredit card debt also.
(19:27):
What are your thoughts onhandling this younger family's
needs?
Lynne Hunter (19:33):
I can say from harvest experience.
We have partnered with a couplelocal food pantries where we
give special permission for ourpeople to join that food pantry,
even if they're out of region.
And that's where we would startis we would help this because
(19:55):
it looks like that's their mainneed at the moment.
So by them going to a localfood pantry they can probably
get their food budget to spreadout a little bit.
And I think that's where we'dstart the electric bill and
mortgage.
Again.
We're going to sit down withthem and then we're going to
start encouraging them and lookat their budget and I know the
(20:17):
first thing that will be said iswell, how can you budget when
there's not enough money comingin?
Well, you have to know how muchmoney is going out before you
can realize what to do with howmuch money is coming in.
Jared Grigg (20:32):
Well, just to add to that just kind of whatn was
saying, I mean it's importantthat you know people.
People need to figure out howto get to the bottom line, right
like what's.
Once you figure out where youare, then a lot of times people
I've noticed you know, dealingwith budgets and things like
that, it's the fear that peoplehave of the unknown because they
get, they get into life andthey're doing this thing and
(20:54):
this thing and the money'scoming in and out and they don't
really know exactly financiallywhere they're at.
A deacon, in this case I wouldwant to slow the pace down,
because a lot of times when Iwork with people, it's always
people that call in and myrent's due tomorrow, type
situations.
But even in people in thechurch they got to that
(21:14):
situation somehow, and so it'salmost like they're in panic
mode when they get here and thisseems like a very stressful
situation both for cherry andmolly that I could really relate
to in some ways, and so thefirst thing that I want to get
them to do is slow down, take adeep breath.
Can we help you work throughsome of the financial things?
(21:34):
You know, we've done that insome situations where we've
helped people and like we we'relike, hey, can, can we look at
your finances with you?
You know, like we're notjudging you, we just want to see
like how we can help you fixthis.
Maybe you're there's somethingthat you have you're not seeing,
like you're spending too muchmoney over here which kind of
gets in for me.
Me when it says that she isn'table to buy the food that she
(21:57):
needs during pregnancy.
What does that mean?
Are you not able to buy fromWhole Foods?
Maybe there's anotherdiscussion that has to happen.
That maybe is not a diagonaldiscussion there, but what does
that mean?
Is there a way that we can helpyou balance your budget a
little bit more?
Yeah, it's a tight situation,but it's just the season, you
know, and it seems to me thatJerry, you know he's not afraid
(22:20):
to work right.
It's not a lack of Jerry notputting in the time.
It seems like he's doing whathe needs to do.
So that's kind of my thoughtson the intro and what you guys
think about that.
Bob Keys (22:36):
I like your talk, what you're saying, but I see a much
deeper need and what I see is awife that will have four
children in five years, and Isee a wife that is desperate.
This is hard.
Four children in five years istough.
I don't care who you are,superwoman or whatever, this is
tough.
She needs other women besideher to help her through this, a
(23:00):
godly, older lady that canencourage her and bless her.
Then she has a husband that'sworking by the time he travels
14, 15 hours a day.
You have two people that areexhausted.
You have two people that are.
This is hard and I'm not sayinglife is not hard, because I
know it is but you've got twopeople that are running at the
(23:24):
ragged edge.
I believe that Jerry needs abetter paying job.
I mean, I'm not saying hedoesn't need to cut expenses,
I'm not saying that but to worka job and a half with a family
of four children is difficultand they need better benefits if
they can get them as well.
So I'm not sure how to.
(23:44):
I would counsel him on what hisgifts are and trying to find a
better paying job as well, notonly cutting the budget I'm with
you guys, but he needs a betterpaying job where he can be home
with his wife helping with thefamily and encouraging her,
because she is going to getburnout and if they have more
children, it's even going to bea deeper and a harder situation
(24:07):
for her.
My family's gone through that interms of my daughter and it's
not easy.
It's hard.
Her family and his family needto help as much as they're able
to as well, and the church.
It's hard and I don't have allthe answers here.
But, man, these two, jerry andMolly, need wisdom and need
direction in their lives, notonly financially but in many,
(24:27):
many other ways.
Jared Grigg (24:28):
That's fantastic points, one of the things that
kind of brought to my mind thatwe do at Acacia.
I've been so encouraged bythese women in our church that
take care of each other and loveeach other.
It's really cool tight-knitcommunity to see that as a man
and it's for my wife.
We struggled with fertility for10 years and so I know some of
that in a way in a differentangle.
But man, just the love that thewomen in our church have shown
(24:53):
my wife and then they do like atour church they have like a
ladies movie night and they doit.
They watch old movies orwhatever and they do it like
they're pretty spot on.
Once or twice a month they onFriday nights, right, and then
we plan that as men andsometimes we get together, we
have fireside chats and so youknow that coming alongside.
I know it was encouraging formy wife to be in that room with
(25:16):
those ladies and she needs that.
That's part of her beinginvolved in the local church is
that she's plugged in with thosewomen that can understand her
and love her as sisters in theLord.
I totally, this is excellent.
Yeah, I want to point her tothose kind of things too things
(25:37):
too.
John Stahl (25:37):
It would be beneficial for him as, going
back to your other thought, Bobto make it possible for them to
have a job that is better payingand has better benefits.
So encourage him to thinkfurther on job training.
He doesn't have to necessarilygo to school.
He could choose a trade, to bean apprentice or whatever.
Bob Keys (25:57):
There's lots of opportunities for better jobs.
Yeah, just work with someonethat's wise in your church to
decide what gifts you have andhow you can use those gifts
better to make more money, andGod will bless those things.
I know he does and it may takesome time and they may need some
, as we said, budgeting andassistance, but again, in the
(26:20):
long haul I would hope he couldfind a better job with better
benefits and provide for hisfamily in a much, much better
way.
John Stahl (26:28):
Another aspect might be some government programs
that would be available, notjust Food bank, but there's
other nutritional aid throughthe government that's available
to needy families.
Bob Keys (26:40):
Yeah, I looked this up and Medicaid and food stamps
and other federal local programswith employment less than
depends on the state between 50and 65,000, you can qualify for
child Medicaid and food stampsand other SNAP-type programs.
So again, I'm assuming he'searning less than $65, but
that's an assumption.
(27:00):
If he's earning $65, I thinkagain it's going to be difficult
but I still think he canprovide for his family at $65.
So if he's earning less thanthat, then there's government
programs that he's paid intowith a social security that he
is able to benefit from.
So I would certainly be lookingat that as a diaconate to help
him into that as well.
(27:21):
So again, those numbers arepretty high.
For a family of six it's thatkind of number.
John Stahl (27:28):
It's interesting we haven't yet discussed the one
point and maybe you've alreadythought about it and just
haven't had the opportunity tobring it out, but it's
specifically.
We've been talking about howthe church can evolve, how the
deacons can be involved in theirlives, but can we, or should we
, incorporate the Weiss familywho's in town?
(27:48):
How can they help in?
Bob Keys (27:50):
this.
Well, one clear thing I think Ikind of hinted at was the
family needs to be in both.
Families need to be involved.
If they're anywhere's local,even if they have to drive, they
need to be involved in theirgrandchildren's lives.
This is important in thegrandchildren's lives as well.
One mother can't do everythingfor these four children, and
(28:11):
especially these young children,so having grandparents involved
it should be good for them andit should certainly be good for
this family, and having evenfinancial assistance from them
now is so critical in terms ofdon't wait to give them money.
They need money now to helpthem and encourage them through
(28:33):
this time and always the firstchannel of help should be from
family.
Absolutely, this would be anencouragement as well.
If at all possible, theirfamily should be involved in
this financial and thismentoring and encouraging of the
grandchildren and their kidsthrough this hard time.
John Stahl (28:55):
And it might be that the deacons, the church,
becoming more actively involvedin the family's life.
That would be an encouragement,a stimulus to the wife's family
, because it could be that theymight have some negative
reactions to Jerry for somereason and if they know that
their church is on board withtheir situation, then that's an
(29:18):
encouragement to the family whoshould be more involved.
Any other thoughts on thisparticular scenario?
Jared Grigg (29:27):
The only last thought that I had, which at the
end, where it says they havestarted to accrue some credit
card debt for me, just from alogistical standpoint, I'm going
to want to attack that firstwith them, like, let's nip this
in the bud because of the.
This is going to be a violentcycle.
Credit card companies don'tlike you, they're not your
friends.
They're there to take advantageof people if they can, and so
(29:51):
like.
For me, there's going to be alot of education on like okay,
let's get out of that.
Like this is the emergency isto get out of that.
So we're not paying minimumpayments and then we're never
getting out of debt.
So and that's where I thinkDave Ramsey, her family, needs
to come in and they need to be aline of defense for them as
well.
That's a biblical concept and Ithink it's.
(30:21):
Oftentimes it is complicatedbecause, you know, living in a
fallen world is complex andsometimes people you know when
you get married, you marry thatfamily too, whether you like it
or not, and sometimes they don'tlike you, and so that could
like it or not, and sometimesthey don't like you, and so that
could be the situation forJerry is that they don't like
him and they're like see, wetold you, and so maybe there's
some resentment and bitterness,and where they're not, they're
(30:43):
not going to get involved.
And I think at that step that'sa different scenario than them
just being like well, I don'twant to go to my mom because I'm
embarrassed, I'm embarrassed.
So I think you kind of got toread between the lines there and
use wisdom and trust the spiritabout how to approach that from
a diaconal standpoint too.
Bob Keys (31:00):
There's one last big point here as well.
She's having a baby and thereis hospital bills coming and
again I don't know, but I wouldcertainly, as a deacon, try to
look into all the options.
They have to have this paid forby the hospital and by other
means with their income.
(31:21):
As it is, I think that'ssomething that again, I don't
know whether it will work, butyou need to do everything you
can to get those bills paid forand keep the bills as low as we
can for them by looking at allthe different programs that are
there for low-wage families withfive people in their family.
So again, that goes along withwhat I'd said before You've got
(31:44):
to be there to help them,because they probably aren't
aware of what kind of help thereis for their situation.
So walk beside them, help themto understand and do everything
you can to reduce those bills toas low as they have and then,
if you need to help, and if thehospital bills aren't
overwhelming for both church andfamily.
John Stahl (32:05):
My understanding is hospitals are willing to work
out a payment plan or even noteven pay at all.
Yeah, eliminate some of theyeah, or even not even pay at
all.
Bob Keys (32:15):
Yeah eliminate some of the yeah yeah, we had a member
of our church and they had alarge bill and the insurance
company and the hospital forgave, I think, $20,000.
So again, there are ways thatthis can all get worked out
normally.
And just look at what optionsyou have and pray that God would
provide for this family in waysthat sometimes we don't even
(32:38):
understand.
But God can do.
John Stahl (32:40):
But just telling Molly, telling Jerry and Molly,
that that's an option, that's apossibility to work out with the
hospital would probably relievea lot of Molly's stress at this
point.
Jared Grigg (32:52):
Yeah, and that's the other thing too, like with
the hospital bills.
I mean, one of the one of thebeautiful things about being in
the OPC is that we havedifferent levels diagonally,
which you guys already noticed.
But just for our listeners, ifthe local deacon is not able to
meet that fund, then they can goto the next level, which is
regional level, and then theycan go to the next level, the
national level.
And so while I've had thisactually happen to me, in 2014,
(33:16):
I had a lung collapse which iskind of funny because I'm a
short guy and stout guy, so itnormally doesn't happen to guys
like me but like that happenedto me and I cured hospital bills
that were $20,000, $30,000.
And this is very personal to meand you know I didn't have
insurance at the time and I wasnewly married and trying to
figure life out.
My local diaconate couldn't takethat weight, and so they went
(33:40):
to the presbytery level and thenother churches helped pay for
my bills and they helped us workout Even with the hospital.
They had made some calls.
I had some guys in here thatknew what they were doing and
knew how to talk, and deaconsdid that work.
They said we're going to slashthis bill.
My wife did a lot of that too.
She's pretty good at it as well, and they helped.
I paid a good amount, but theypaid for my medical bills, and
(34:04):
so, particularly if they're inan opc church, it's not just
your church in long range landway out there, there's a
presbytery under here, it's abeautiful, you know, being a
biblical church like that.
Right, we're following what Pauldid next, so we have the larger
community with us.
John Stahl (34:22):
Amen, that's great.
We're going to stop there withthis episode, since it's running
a bit long, but hang tight.
Next week we plan to releasethe other two scenarios this
group contemplated, one havingto do with a year-long intern
with car trouble and the otherabout empty nesters who are
struggling to pay their bills.
Be sure to come back for those.
David Nakhla (34:45):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our websitethereformedeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
(35:06):
again next month for anotherepisode of the Reformed Deacon
Podcast.
Hey, we had a man that was a teacher and a coach
and now he's doing nothing.
Hold it.
My job is to encourage him togo back and get him back into
life.
David Nakhla (00:16):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
John Stahl (00:35):
Hello, my name is John Stahl and I serve as a
deacon at Emanuel OPC inWilmington, delaware.
I also serve on the OPCCommittee on Diaconal Ministries
.
For this episode of theReformed Deacon, I'm going to
facilitate a discussion group wecall Real World Cases.
This episode will includescenarios that concern members
(00:59):
of a local church, the householdof faith.
I'll describe the cases to ourpanel of deacons and we'll
discuss possible responses toeach case.
These are fictitious situationsbut I think you'll find them
realistic and applicable to yourcongregation.
With me today are three fellowdeacons Bob Keyes from Grace OPC
(01:23):
in Columbus, ohio.
Lynn Hunter at Harvest OPC inWyoming, michigan.
And Jared Grigg at AcaciaReformed Church, a mission work
of the OPC in Manassas, virginia.
Welcome, brothers Howdy.
Jared Grigg (01:38):
Good to be here.
John Stahl (01:40):
Well, let's get started with the first scenario.
Tim has been a member of yourchurch for the past five years.
He has been in a wheelchair foralmost 10 years following a
skiing accident.
He receives disability paymentsfrom Social Security and is
living on that plus what is leftfrom the equity.
(02:00):
When he sold his house afterthe accident, he had been
working as a teacher andfootball coach but has been
unable to find employment sincethe accident.
Tim has no family living athome.
He cannot walk but can use hishands and arms and can generally
take care of himself, though heoften needs transportation to
(02:23):
get to church and to run errands.
He needs to have help cleaninghis apartment twice a month.
The church has a schedule tohelp with both recurring issues.
Although he has been trying,tim has not been able to find
another career.
He has become discouraged andreally doesn't look as actively
(02:43):
as he used to.
Discouraged and really doesn'tlook as actively as he used to.
He's running out of funds andwill soon need to live only on
the disability payments.
You don't know the details ofTim's condition.
He may or may not have futurecomplications as a result of his
injuries.
It seems likely that there willbe some medical issues down the
road due to his long-termconfinement to a wheelchair.
(03:06):
He tries, but it is difficultfor Tim to participate actively
in the church becausetransportation is a challenge.
He really doesn't feelcomfortable having people visit
him at home because he hasdifficulty cleaning his
apartment.
You don't know if he has healthinsurance.
He doesn't really like to talkabout his condition, either
(03:29):
physical or financial.
You assume that the situationmay be worse than he is
admitting.
Tim is requesting assistancewith his rent payments until he
can find employment.
How would you and yourdeaconate approach this request
and this member's related needs?
Jared Grigg (03:51):
Well, I guess I'll start off.
I think this is a complexsituation, but I think at the
top of it, what immediatelycaught my eye when I went
through this scenario was thefact that Tim's discouraged
right, and there's a host ofthings that are discouraging for
Tim right, and so we have atendency as men to come in
because we do have a heart forGod's people and God has called
(04:12):
us to mercy ministry, and wehave a tendency to maybe come in
and want to fix the problemright, or think that we have the
ability to fix the problem insome way.
But at the top of what Timneeds, tim needs to know that
he's loved by the covenantcommunity, and so that's going
to be at the top of my list,before we get into the
logistical things, is how do weas a diaconate locally come
(04:37):
together and pray together sothat we can be and use the
resources of the communityaround us in the congregation to
show Tim that he's loved?
Because Tim doesn't you knowpart of it was, you know he
didn't want people to come intohis house, which means that he
there's a burden of shame thatTim has, and I don't want Tim to
feel shame because ultimately,like we can't fix the problem
(04:59):
for Tim.
We can just come alongside himand, you know, unwrap those
grave clothes that he has on him.
And you know we can't fixpeople's problems, but what we
can do is we can love peoplethrough them.
So that was that's where I wouldstart with Tim.
Now there's a host of otherthings, but that would be my
intro is to pray for Tim andjust really let him know that
(05:21):
he's not alone, because a lot oftimes people in this situation
that have disability or they'reheavily discouraged, they feel
isolated, and so I think our jobas ministers of mercy in the
beginning is to come alongsidethese people and be cheerleaders
and say, hey, you're not alone.
Right, like Jesus wept, weunderstand the pain and the hurt
(05:43):
that you're going through, andthat kind of will motivate
people to get in the rightdirection.
It kind of gets their mindmoving if they know that they're
not alone in the situation.
So that's how I would attackinitially, this.
John Stahl (05:54):
Yeah, I like your answer there, so let's stick
with just that.
The first step really isencouraging this brother in the
Lord.
As a deacon, would you feellike it's the deacon's job to do
that, or is there another wayto incorporate maybe others in
the church?
Bob Keys (06:14):
I thought about one thing in particular Tim needs
God's people but, even moreimportantly, God's people need
Tim.
We need to help Tim.
Help us learn to care for thosewho have a hard time caring for
themselves, to teach usselflessness and true love, true
godly love.
I saw I've been getting readyto teach a course on Paul David
(06:39):
Tripp's book Instruments in theRedeemer's Hands, and there's
one quote in there that I sawjust a few days ago.
That just man, I wish I'm goingto memorize this.
This is diaconal ministry atthe very heart, and I think it's
good for all these scenarios,and this is a quote.
Diaconal ministry is not aboutalways knowing what to say.
(07:00):
It is not about fixingeverything in sight that is
broken.
Diaconal ministry is aboutconnecting people with Christ so
that they are able to think ashe would have them think, desire
what he says is best and dowhat he calls them to do, even
(07:20):
if the circumstances never getfixed.
Even if the circumstances neverget fixed, it involves exposing
hurt, lost and confused peopleto God's glory so that they give
up their pursuit of their ownglory and live for his.
I think that's what all of ourjobs are as deacons, and the
(07:41):
small deacon, in terms of allthe rest of the congregation and
this is the focus I think weneed to have, especially on
long-term diaconal needs is torealize that we are there and we
connect the church with thisneed.
But in the process we areencouraged and benefited as a
church because we learned whatthe love of Christ really looks
(08:04):
like.
John Stahl (08:04):
Benefited as a church because we learned what
the love of Christ really lookslike.
Good, Any other suggestions onthe practical side maybe?
Bob Keys (08:15):
I think he needs a van .
Why did it take 10 years forhim not to get a van?
He could not handle ahandicapped van.
Why?
I mean the church should havegotten a handicapped van for him
some way, somehow with thePresbytery or the CDM, somehow
some way, and the church hasdone this, the Presbytery has
done this, but he needs a van.
I can't believe it's taken 10years not to get a van.
He's not getting around, he'snot able to get outside, he
(08:36):
requires dependency and he needsmore independence.
That's just a clear one for me.
It should have been done 10years ago.
And I know they're expensive,but it's expensive not to have
one for this dear man that hasmany gifts and needs to be using
them in life.
Jared Grigg (08:55):
And that's why it's important to have more than one
deaconess, because other menhave ideas that you didn't even
think about.
I didn't even think about a van, and it's like a blaring, like
well, yeah, he should get a van.
John Stahl (09:08):
A van might even help, not just help him out with
his personal needs as far aswe've already been delineated in
the scenario, but even if hewanted to get some kind of
part-time job that he would beable to do from a wheelchair job
that he would be able to dofrom a wheelchair and, even more
(09:29):
importantly, he couldadminister help to those in the
church by taking them placesrather than them taking him
places.
Bob Keys (09:33):
I mean, get him involved in ministry himself.
He's a coach, he's a teacher.
What in the world?
He's got great gifts ofteaching, encouraging and
blessing other people.
Lynne Hunter (09:45):
He's a gifted man.
I was thinking the same thing,bob.
I look at this and I see, hey,we had a man that was a teacher
and a coach, and now he's doingnothing.
Hold it.
My job is to encourage him togo back and get him back into
life, and so if it starts with avan, that's a great place to
(10:10):
start, but it's also we asbrothers have to encourage him
to realize life didn't stopbecause of an accident.
God put you here for a reason.
There was an accident for areason.
You still need to glorify God.
How do you use your earthlytalents?
We're gifted and we're made towork.
Bob Keys (10:34):
Disability doesn't matter but he can use his hands
and if he uses his hands and hismouth, there's a million, 300
million jobs he can do.
Well, maybe 200 million, butyou know there's so many things
this Tim can do.
He really needs to move aheadwith life, finding the right job
that'll give him a sense of joyand worthwhileness.
(10:57):
Tim needs to somehow move aheadwith what he loves to do and
helping him find that is whatthe deacon should be doing Right
beside him.
Move ahead and find a job thatyou can really minister to other
people with your heart and yoursoul.
John Stahl (11:17):
And it is possible.
I didn't even think about this.
He's a teacher and a coach.
You can teach I would thinkthat you can teach from a
wheelchair, so he could have ajob as a teacher.
He doesn't have to even changehis career.
Necessarily.
It wouldn't be focused on thesports, the physical, Absolutely
(11:38):
indeed, he can still coach.
Lynne Hunter (11:44):
Sure he can, can maybe better as a referee.
I know more than one wheelchaircoach, both on the football
field and on basketball court.
John Stahl (11:51):
These guys coach really well sitting in a
wheelchair and this is why wehave multiple deacons, because
my approach would have been well, let's set him up with a
government job training if hewants to go on a different
career, but he doesn't have to,so why even bother going through
that more difficult and maybeless fulfilling avenue?
Bob Keys (12:16):
I would take him towards a motivational coach.
If he's taught and he's been acoach, I think he could really
be an effective motivationalcoach in life.
I think he could do all kindsof wonderful things to encourage
people, bless people.
You know they're going to lookat him and go.
If he can do it, then I can too.
And I just think that you knowthis is the way to encourage
(12:37):
this man is put him in a placewhere he but 10 years without a
job.
I mean talk about dependency.
They've bred dependency in thisman because they haven't walked
beside him and encouraged himand blessed him.
And I don't think it'd takethat many people in the church
to do this.
A handful could really blessand encourage this Tim through
(13:02):
this time and get him to helpand minister in the church
himself.
Lynne Hunter (13:05):
So you think about what we've just been talking
about how do we get him from thepoint where he's at to back
into his career?
Well, the way I look at it iswe need to get him reinstated
into church life, coming toWednesday night programs, and if
it means that for a year Lynnor Bob or John has to go pick
(13:29):
him up, that's what we do,because while we do that, now
we're fellowshipping.
Now we're getting him to think,hey, I can do this.
We get him to start teachingSunday school, maybe co-teaching
, so that he can realize, oh, Istill have my brain, I still can
teach children or adults.
(13:50):
And we get him so that he getsrid of his depression, gets out
of his apartment and people youknow.
He realizes, hey, this is whatI can do.
And at the same time thedeacons start working on some of
those other bigger problems.
And by the church people seeinghim coming to church, they're
(14:12):
more than willing to help on thevan side, donation or, however,
things like that.
Progress, however, things likethat progress.
John Stahl (14:21):
Now we can give him a van, we can encourage him to
be involved in body life and all, but he still has the rent
payments that he apparently isnot able to make on disability.
So it would seem to me thatthere might be more immediate
(14:43):
suggestions.
Lynne Hunter (14:44):
Immediate need.
I need rent payment, I needfood, I need to help this man
get re-involved in church lifeRent payment and food.
You can set up a timeline andsay okay, hey, for this many
months, while we start doingthese other steps, this is what
we're going to do and you set atime period three months, six
(15:05):
months, nine months, 12 monthsand there's evaluation.
John Stahl (15:10):
Yeah, payments out of the Deacons fund for that.
Lynne Hunter (15:14):
Yeah, yeah, and there's evaluation through these
months.
The reason I have no problempaying for it is because every
time I give him a rent payment,guess what he has to talk to me
Gives me that opportunity totalk to him about.
Hey, how are things going?
(15:35):
How's your walk with Christ?
What are we going to do to moveyou forward?
John Stahl (15:43):
Good point.
Bob Keys (15:44):
As soon as he gets a van.
I think that we need to get himover to our houses and again
get him in the house somewhat,have two guys lift a wheelchair
and get him in Fellowship.
Being in other people's housesas well, I think, is so
important and talking to him andencouraging him, I think again,
the body of Christ can have agreat ministry here and get him
(16:06):
through it so he really believeshe can teach and he can do the
things that we've talked about.
What a blessing.
Jared Grigg (16:12):
Yeah, I think you know, with Tim's situation, you
know, I think you guys aredescribing diaconal mechanics
and you're describing, you know,leading by example, and I think
we have to address the elephantin the room.
It's, in some cases, right,like we may do all these things
for Tim and encourage him, andthen everybody, like we can do
everything right and at the endof the day Tim doesn't progress
(16:33):
forward.
Right, like providing theassistance for the rent, the
electrical, the things, theemergency things that come up.
Right, like we can stop thebleeding.
But ultimately we have tounderstand and be conscious that
Tim has to make that decisionto do better for himself.
Right, we can encourage and wecan push forward.
And I think some deacons, I know, in the beginning, like that
discouraged me because I feltlike I did these things and I
(16:55):
and I spent so long talking toother deacons and trying to work
through this process to helpthis person.
But some of these folks, evenin the public community, it was
almost like they didn't want tohelp themselves and I had to
learn a very hard lesson earlyon that I'm not here to, even
subconsciously, I'm not here tosave people, I'm here to point
(17:15):
them to Christ.
But ultimately that decision toget better.
Whatever their issues are, theyhave to make the decision to do
it.
I can only encourage them, butI can't make the decision for
them to get better, andsometimes they don't.
Bob Keys (17:28):
That's the discouragements of being a
deacon, and any deacon that'sserved for any length of time
goes through those difficultiesof seeing people not respond to
counsel, to wisdom, direction,and there's multiple reasons of
(17:48):
why they don't.
But ours isn't, again, to fix.
Ours is to encourage, to bless,to show mercy without creating
more dependency, and I think allthat we've talked about, I
think, is exactly what we asdeacons do.
But if you haven't had afailure in terms of getting
(18:09):
someone to do what's right andbest, then you haven't been a
deacon very long.
It's hard, deacon work isdifficult, and what was the
verse that talks about the tears, the veil of tears, but we will
reap with a harvest.
It's a Psalm and it's wonderful.
It tells us even in the battlesof life, God will give joy.
John Stahl (18:31):
All right, good.
Any other thoughts on thatparticular scenario?
Okay, good discussion.
Let's continue with the nextcase.
Years Jerry works a full-timebut low-wage job and recently
(19:06):
started a part-time night shiftat a local factory.
Molly indicated she isn't ableto buy the food that she needs
during pregnancy.
They're on a high deductibleinsurance plan and are concerned
they won't be able to pay thebills for the birth.
The wife's family lives locallybut doesn't attend church.
They've started to accrue somecredit card debt also.
(19:27):
What are your thoughts onhandling this younger family's
needs?
Lynne Hunter (19:33):
I can say from harvest experience.
We have partnered with a couplelocal food pantries where we
give special permission for ourpeople to join that food pantry,
even if they're out of region.
And that's where we would startis we would help this because
(19:55):
it looks like that's their mainneed at the moment.
So by them going to a localfood pantry they can probably
get their food budget to spreadout a little bit.
And I think that's where we'dstart the electric bill and
mortgage.
Again.
We're going to sit down withthem and then we're going to
start encouraging them and lookat their budget and I know the
(20:17):
first thing that will be said iswell, how can you budget when
there's not enough money comingin?
Well, you have to know how muchmoney is going out before you
can realize what to do with howmuch money is coming in.
Jared Grigg (20:32):
Well, just to add to that just kind of whatn was
saying, I mean it's importantthat you know people.
People need to figure out howto get to the bottom line, right
like what's.
Once you figure out where youare, then a lot of times people
I've noticed you know, dealingwith budgets and things like
that, it's the fear that peoplehave of the unknown because they
get, they get into life andthey're doing this thing and
(20:54):
this thing and the money'scoming in and out and they don't
really know exactly financiallywhere they're at.
A deacon, in this case I wouldwant to slow the pace down,
because a lot of times when Iwork with people, it's always
people that call in and myrent's due tomorrow, type
situations.
But even in people in thechurch they got to that
(21:14):
situation somehow, and so it'salmost like they're in panic
mode when they get here and thisseems like a very stressful
situation both for cherry andmolly that I could really relate
to in some ways, and so thefirst thing that I want to get
them to do is slow down, take adeep breath.
Can we help you work throughsome of the financial things?
(21:34):
You know, we've done that insome situations where we've
helped people and like we we'relike, hey, can, can we look at
your finances with you?
You know, like we're notjudging you, we just want to see
like how we can help you fixthis.
Maybe you're there's somethingthat you have you're not seeing,
like you're spending too muchmoney over here which kind of
gets in for me.
Me when it says that she isn'table to buy the food that she
(21:57):
needs during pregnancy.
What does that mean?
Are you not able to buy fromWhole Foods?
Maybe there's anotherdiscussion that has to happen.
That maybe is not a diagonaldiscussion there, but what does
that mean?
Is there a way that we can helpyou balance your budget a
little bit more?
Yeah, it's a tight situation,but it's just the season, you
know, and it seems to me thatJerry, you know he's not afraid
(22:20):
to work right.
It's not a lack of Jerry notputting in the time.
It seems like he's doing whathe needs to do.
So that's kind of my thoughtson the intro and what you guys
think about that.
Bob Keys (22:36):
I like your talk, what you're saying, but I see a much
deeper need and what I see is awife that will have four
children in five years, and Isee a wife that is desperate.
This is hard.
Four children in five years istough.
I don't care who you are,superwoman or whatever, this is
tough.
She needs other women besideher to help her through this, a
(23:00):
godly, older lady that canencourage her and bless her.
Then she has a husband that'sworking by the time he travels
14, 15 hours a day.
You have two people that areexhausted.
You have two people that are.
This is hard and I'm not sayinglife is not hard, because I
know it is but you've got twopeople that are running at the
(23:24):
ragged edge.
I believe that Jerry needs abetter paying job.
I mean, I'm not saying hedoesn't need to cut expenses,
I'm not saying that but to worka job and a half with a family
of four children is difficultand they need better benefits if
they can get them as well.
So I'm not sure how to.
(23:44):
I would counsel him on what hisgifts are and trying to find a
better paying job as well, notonly cutting the budget I'm with
you guys, but he needs a betterpaying job where he can be home
with his wife helping with thefamily and encouraging her,
because she is going to getburnout and if they have more
children, it's even going to bea deeper and a harder situation
(24:07):
for her.
My family's gone through that interms of my daughter and it's
not easy.
It's hard.
Her family and his family needto help as much as they're able
to as well, and the church.
It's hard and I don't have allthe answers here.
But, man, these two, jerry andMolly, need wisdom and need
direction in their lives, notonly financially but in many,
(24:27):
many other ways.
Jared Grigg (24:28):
That's fantastic points, one of the things that
kind of brought to my mind thatwe do at Acacia.
I've been so encouraged bythese women in our church that
take care of each other and loveeach other.
It's really cool tight-knitcommunity to see that as a man
and it's for my wife.
We struggled with fertility for10 years and so I know some of
that in a way in a differentangle.
But man, just the love that thewomen in our church have shown
(24:53):
my wife and then they do like atour church they have like a
ladies movie night and they doit.
They watch old movies orwhatever and they do it like
they're pretty spot on.
Once or twice a month they onFriday nights, right, and then
we plan that as men andsometimes we get together, we
have fireside chats and so youknow that coming alongside.
I know it was encouraging formy wife to be in that room with
(25:16):
those ladies and she needs that.
That's part of her beinginvolved in the local church is
that she's plugged in with thosewomen that can understand her
and love her as sisters in theLord.
I totally, this is excellent.
Yeah, I want to point her tothose kind of things too things
(25:37):
too.
John Stahl (25:37):
It would be beneficial for him as, going
back to your other thought, Bobto make it possible for them to
have a job that is better payingand has better benefits.
So encourage him to thinkfurther on job training.
He doesn't have to necessarilygo to school.
He could choose a trade, to bean apprentice or whatever.
Bob Keys (25:57):
There's lots of opportunities for better jobs.
Yeah, just work with someonethat's wise in your church to
decide what gifts you have andhow you can use those gifts
better to make more money, andGod will bless those things.
I know he does and it may takesome time and they may need some
, as we said, budgeting andassistance, but again, in the
(26:20):
long haul I would hope he couldfind a better job with better
benefits and provide for hisfamily in a much, much better
way.
John Stahl (26:28):
Another aspect might be some government programs
that would be available, notjust Food bank, but there's
other nutritional aid throughthe government that's available
to needy families.
Bob Keys (26:40):
Yeah, I looked this up and Medicaid and food stamps
and other federal local programswith employment less than
depends on the state between 50and 65,000, you can qualify for
child Medicaid and food stampsand other SNAP-type programs.
So again, I'm assuming he'searning less than $65, but
that's an assumption.
(27:00):
If he's earning $65, I thinkagain it's going to be difficult
but I still think he canprovide for his family at $65.
So if he's earning less thanthat, then there's government
programs that he's paid intowith a social security that he
is able to benefit from.
So I would certainly be lookingat that as a diaconate to help
him into that as well.
(27:21):
So again, those numbers arepretty high.
For a family of six it's thatkind of number.
John Stahl (27:28):
It's interesting we haven't yet discussed the one
point and maybe you've alreadythought about it and just
haven't had the opportunity tobring it out, but it's
specifically.
We've been talking about howthe church can evolve, how the
deacons can be involved in theirlives, but can we, or should we
, incorporate the Weiss familywho's in town?
(27:48):
How can they help in?
Bob Keys (27:50):
this.
Well, one clear thing I think Ikind of hinted at was the
family needs to be in both.
Families need to be involved.
If they're anywhere's local,even if they have to drive, they
need to be involved in theirgrandchildren's lives.
This is important in thegrandchildren's lives as well.
One mother can't do everythingfor these four children, and
(28:11):
especially these young children,so having grandparents involved
it should be good for them andit should certainly be good for
this family, and having evenfinancial assistance from them
now is so critical in terms ofdon't wait to give them money.
They need money now to helpthem and encourage them through
(28:33):
this time and always the firstchannel of help should be from
family.
Absolutely, this would be anencouragement as well.
If at all possible, theirfamily should be involved in
this financial and thismentoring and encouraging of the
grandchildren and their kidsthrough this hard time.
John Stahl (28:55):
And it might be that the deacons, the church,
becoming more actively involvedin the family's life.
That would be an encouragement,a stimulus to the wife's family
, because it could be that theymight have some negative
reactions to Jerry for somereason and if they know that
their church is on board withtheir situation, then that's an
(29:18):
encouragement to the family whoshould be more involved.
Any other thoughts on thisparticular scenario?
Jared Grigg (29:27):
The only last thought that I had, which at the
end, where it says they havestarted to accrue some credit
card debt for me, just from alogistical standpoint, I'm going
to want to attack that firstwith them, like, let's nip this
in the bud because of the.
This is going to be a violentcycle.
Credit card companies don'tlike you, they're not your
friends.
They're there to take advantageof people if they can, and so
(29:51):
like.
For me, there's going to be alot of education on like okay,
let's get out of that.
Like this is the emergency isto get out of that.
So we're not paying minimumpayments and then we're never
getting out of debt.
So and that's where I thinkDave Ramsey, her family, needs
to come in and they need to be aline of defense for them as
well.
That's a biblical concept and Ithink it's.
(30:21):
Oftentimes it is complicatedbecause, you know, living in a
fallen world is complex andsometimes people you know when
you get married, you marry thatfamily too, whether you like it
or not, and sometimes they don'tlike you, and so that could
like it or not, and sometimesthey don't like you, and so that
could be the situation forJerry is that they don't like
him and they're like see, wetold you, and so maybe there's
some resentment and bitterness,and where they're not, they're
(30:43):
not going to get involved.
And I think at that step that'sa different scenario than them
just being like well, I don'twant to go to my mom because I'm
embarrassed, I'm embarrassed.
So I think you kind of got toread between the lines there and
use wisdom and trust the spiritabout how to approach that from
a diaconal standpoint too.
Bob Keys (31:00):
There's one last big point here as well.
She's having a baby and thereis hospital bills coming and
again I don't know, but I wouldcertainly, as a deacon, try to
look into all the options.
They have to have this paid forby the hospital and by other
means with their income.
(31:21):
As it is, I think that'ssomething that again, I don't
know whether it will work, butyou need to do everything you
can to get those bills paid forand keep the bills as low as we
can for them by looking at allthe different programs that are
there for low-wage families withfive people in their family.
So again, that goes along withwhat I'd said before You've got
(31:44):
to be there to help them,because they probably aren't
aware of what kind of help thereis for their situation.
So walk beside them, help themto understand and do everything
you can to reduce those bills toas low as they have and then,
if you need to help, and if thehospital bills aren't
overwhelming for both church andfamily.
John Stahl (32:05):
My understanding is hospitals are willing to work
out a payment plan or even noteven pay at all.
Yeah, eliminate some of theyeah, or even not even pay at
all.
Bob Keys (32:15):
Yeah eliminate some of the yeah yeah, we had a member
of our church and they had alarge bill and the insurance
company and the hospital forgave, I think, $20,000.
So again, there are ways thatthis can all get worked out
normally.
And just look at what optionsyou have and pray that God would
provide for this family in waysthat sometimes we don't even
(32:38):
understand.
But God can do.
John Stahl (32:40):
But just telling Molly, telling Jerry and Molly,
that that's an option, that's apossibility to work out with the
hospital would probably relievea lot of Molly's stress at this
point.
Jared Grigg (32:52):
Yeah, and that's the other thing too, like with
the hospital bills.
I mean, one of the one of thebeautiful things about being in
the OPC is that we havedifferent levels diagonally,
which you guys already noticed.
But just for our listeners, ifthe local deacon is not able to
meet that fund, then they can goto the next level, which is
regional level, and then theycan go to the next level, the
national level.
And so while I've had thisactually happen to me, in 2014,
(33:16):
I had a lung collapse which iskind of funny because I'm a
short guy and stout guy, so itnormally doesn't happen to guys
like me but like that happenedto me and I cured hospital bills
that were $20,000, $30,000.
And this is very personal to meand you know I didn't have
insurance at the time and I wasnewly married and trying to
figure life out.
My local diaconate couldn't takethat weight, and so they went
(33:40):
to the presbytery level and thenother churches helped pay for
my bills and they helped us workout Even with the hospital.
They had made some calls.
I had some guys in here thatknew what they were doing and
knew how to talk, and deaconsdid that work.
They said we're going to slashthis bill.
My wife did a lot of that too.
She's pretty good at it as well, and they helped.
I paid a good amount, but theypaid for my medical bills, and
(34:04):
so, particularly if they're inan opc church, it's not just
your church in long range landway out there, there's a
presbytery under here, it's abeautiful, you know, being a
biblical church like that.
Right, we're following what Pauldid next, so we have the larger
community with us.
John Stahl (34:22):
Amen, that's great.
We're going to stop there withthis episode, since it's running
a bit long, but hang tight.
Next week we plan to releasethe other two scenarios this
group contemplated, one havingto do with a year-long intern
with car trouble and the otherabout empty nesters who are
struggling to pay their bills.
Be sure to come back for those.
David Nakhla (34:45):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our websitethereformedeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
(35:06):
again next month for anotherepisode of the Reformed Deacon
Podcast.
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