June 25, 2024 • 20 mins
In this episode, Part 2 of "Policies and Procedures", we'll dive into the case of Sam, a candidate with great potential but some rough edges, and discuss the importance of knowing candidates for officers in the church by walking side by side with them. The second scenario, the four deacons tackle the sensitive topic of allowing non-members, particularly same-sex couples, to use church facilities for weddings, and the importance of establishing clear policies aligned with doctrinal values. This episode is packed with practical advice and thoughtful insights on these two interesting scenarios.
Referenced in this episode:
Part 1 of "Policies and Procedures" can be found here: https://www.thereformeddeacon.org/1849391/15266887-real-world-cases-policies-and-procedures-part-1
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Doug Vos (00:00):
Every church should have a policy for weddings and
building use.
David Nakhla (00:05):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
My name is David Noggle and Iserve as the administrator for
(00:27):
the OPC Committee on DiaconalMinistries.
Thanks for coming back tolisten to part two of the Real
World Cases, policies andProcedures episode.
Our group of four-season deaconsBob Keyes, Doug Voss, Lynne
Hunter and John Voss continueconsidering two more scenarios.
Let's get right back into thelast two scenarios.
You're one of the two busydeacons in a smaller OPC.
(00:50):
Your church recently startedgrowing, has just begun to
consider candidates for churchoffice.
It's welcome news, since yourwork life has gotten busier.
One man being considered for thediaconate, though, has you a
bit concerned.
Sam's a nice guy, but you'dnotice he can sometimes be a
little rough around the edges,shall we say.
(01:12):
He doesn't seem to initiateconversations or approach
newcomers, and you'd notice hecan be somewhat abrupt with his
family, his wife and hischildren.
He's in church most Sundays.
You believe from conversationsyou've had with him that he
loves the Lord has a good graspof scripture, but wonder about
his people skills.
(01:32):
An older woman in the churchshared with you her
apprehensiveness about Sam,which only seemed to elevate
your concerns.
After he's been examined by thesession, you've learned that
Sam has been confirmed to be putbefore the congregation.
Should you express yourconcerns or trust the session
knows best.
John Voss (01:54):
Too late.
The session's confirmed himalready.
David Nakhla (01:58):
Well, he hasn't been elected yet.
John Voss (02:00):
He hasn't been elected yet.
I think the elders, while theyare the rulers of the church,
the elders should be seekinginput as well from the deacons.
That's my opinion and it ispractice at our church.
There is a practice before anomination is confirmed shall we
(02:22):
call it or whatever the deaconswill be consulted.
Now, then again, we also dothings a little different, where
we're like the model that wecame from, where the elders and
deacons meet once a monthtogether.
You have a council meeting, theelders meet one night, the
deacons meet the same night, butthey're separate, and then two
(02:42):
weeks later you discuss yourbusinesses with each other as
much as possible concerning theelders, but the deacons then
discuss their business with theelders at that meeting.
And that point, that's when wehave consultation.
We'll just say input.
I'll also say this we've neverrejected anybody, but I do think
(03:07):
it's important that there besome input, because these people
have to work together, and justthe more input you can get, I
think the better off you are.
David Nakhla (03:19):
Next John Others.
Bob Keys (03:22):
This is the most important topic we have.
This topic is about the Churchof Jesus Christ.
It represents the Church and tome, it's the most important
thing that we do.
We have had numbers of issuesin our church regarding men that
(03:45):
were not qualified because oftheir lives, what they did and
how they did it, and we suffered, and the world saw.
We suffered from making unwisedecisions.
We didn't know the men, thedeacons and the elders that we
put in office, and I'm not goingto go into stories, that isn't
(04:08):
the right time, but I can tellyou we must guard the office of
elder deacon.
These are offices of leadershipand I believe we need
discipleship, men's discipleshipgroups that disciple men before
we even start the process ofinterviewing them and going over
(04:29):
theology.
We need to know these menthoroughly, inside and out.
I mean going to their houses,bringing them to our house,
walking side by side with them,getting to know them deeply,
before we allow them even tothink about becoming elders and
deacons, because we have seenthe effects of not doing it.
(04:51):
And I've talked to my pastorsrecently pleading with them to
be wise, think carefully andlet's do discipleship before we
even start classes to teach mentheology.
It's a lot more than theology.
You can see this man here hasissues with his wife and
(05:12):
children.
You can see the rough edges.
We have members that see it aswell.
If you put it up for a vote,they'll vote amen because they
don't know.
Our job as leaders is toprotect the office of elder and
deacon.
They're important offices,they're important offices,
they're high offices.
They got to be guarded and weare the ones to guard them.
You can decide different waysof doing it, but we've got to do
(05:34):
it better than we have.
David Nakhla (05:36):
Thank you, Bob.
Lynne Hunter (05:37):
So I'll jump in from my experience and I think
I'm not saying that we have it100% right, but I think we have
a system at Harvest that helpswith this.
All our men in leadershippositions have to go through
leadership training class led byone of our elders, and it
(05:58):
doesn't matter if you're elderor deacon, you still have to
take the exact same class.
So that's first point.
The second thing is isdepending on what office they
are going to go in, they end upin a internship program one year
before they're even brought tothe congregation.
(06:18):
So they get go to leadershiptraining, then they get, they
have interview with the session,then they end up in as an
intern either of the elders orthe deacons and the deacon
interns.
They come to the meetings justlike any other deacon.
They're allowed to speak at themeetings just like any other
(06:39):
deacon.
We will take them out forvisiting on certain cases.
So we see them perform for ayear and a couple of times they
weeded themselves out, realizedno, this is not for me.
Other times we've gone back tothe session and said this person
(07:01):
needs more training in this.
We have two interns right nowthat ask can we intern for
another year.
One had just gotten married andhas a child and he wants to see
how it's going to work with thefamily before he jumps into
this full-time all the time.
So even in a small church, oneor two deacons, I would suggest
(07:23):
that you come up with trainingand time for testing before we
go put a person to thecongregation.
David Nakhla (07:32):
Yeah, let a man be tested before he serves, isn't
that?
It sounds like a biblicalconcept.
John Voss (07:38):
Yep, john.
So when they're interning, howinvolved do they end up being
when you're considering a caseor cases?
Because they're not yetordained, but they're going to
be hearing information.
You know private personalinformation.
Are they allowed in on that?
Lynne Hunter (07:58):
Yep, they're allowed in on it.
We have a deacon's meetingtonight where there will be a
father at that deacon's meetingthat is going to be talking
about some personal things.
Those interns will be in thatmeeting but they are told, you
know, when they come on boardthey're told that this is the
rules that we abide by.
You know, they get the sametreatment as everybody else and
(08:20):
most of the times the youngerones, the ones that just started
out, kind of sit there and justlisten, don't say anything.
The younger ones, the ones thatjust started out, kind of sit
there and just listen, don't sayanything.
And then you can see as theymature in their internship they
get a little bit more bold tospeak.
John Voss (08:32):
Oh, okay, it's a good concept actually.
Bob Keys (08:34):
We do that.
We have an internship, we dosimilar things as you do, but
what my concern is is that ifyou aren't walking side by side
with a man, you don't know himRight, and I am really saying
you've got to know, really knowthese men before you allow them
(08:57):
to take the office, because wehave been burned and it's hurt,
it's hurt our congregation andhurt our witness.
I like what you're doing, but Ithink you can still get full.
You really have to know thesemen and we did not know some of
the other men that we've had upfor office before.
Really know them, and I thinkyou need a couple of deacons and
elders really listeningcarefully to their family and to
(09:19):
them and watching them Everystep.
You've got to know them.
I've learned this out of 40years.
You've got to know the men thatare going up for leadership.
If you don't know them, thechurch will be hurt.
Lynne Hunter (09:31):
Bob, this is pointed at you but anybody can
jump in.
Does your church practicechurch visitation, and do you do
it with an elder and a deaconor just the elders?
Bob Keys (09:42):
We haven't had as much visitation as we needed, but I
am starting this month, in twoweeks, to visit with my elder.
I have a new elder.
He's been a deacon for 10 yearsNow.
He's a he's an elder and we'regoing to do a visitation on a
regular basis to all the peoplein our care, our shepherding
group, and I can't wait, I can'twait.
This is going to give me anopportunity to to encourage our
(10:06):
congregants, to use their gifts,to encourage them the gifts I
know and begin to know what kindof situations we have in terms
of men that would be gooddeacons and elders in our church
as well.
So working together with anelder, I think, is critical and
so important in the shepherdingand care in a congregation.
David Nakhla (10:29):
Other thoughts.
Anybody else got any thoughtson this.
Do you guys think that youshould speak to Sam about these
concerns?
Do you think that would befruitful?
Doug Vos (10:39):
I think you should have a private conversation with
Sam and talk to him about hispeople skills understanding.
He has a good grasp ofscripture.
I would appeal to him withscripture, come armed and ready
with a number of scripturepassages that talk about the
fruit of the spirit, talk aboutcorrecting and gentleness.
(11:01):
Try and work it through withthem.
I mean, you might even findthat you are serving with
another deacon that sometimeshas a short fuse right and he's
already in the diaconate.
That happens from time to time.
You'll find that you're in achurch Not all the deacons and
elders are always going to seeeye to eye about everything, so
(11:22):
it's how to have healthydiscussions together without
getting angry at each other,right.
So it may work out for Sam, butI mean, if he's not ready, like
I'm so glad to hear about thechurches that have internships
we talked about that a bit inour congregation with the next
group of deacons that we'rebringing in is have the
(11:44):
classroom instruction, gothrough all the theology, talk
through some case studies, watchsome old videos from deacon
summits, listen to some reformeddeacon podcasts and then do an
internship, and the whole timeworking through, does this
deacon exhibit the fruit of theSpirit If they don't.
One of the notes here is justtalking about do they have
people skills?
(12:05):
It looks like they don't havepeople skills.
Work through that with people,brother, we know you know
scripture, but let's work onsome gentleness and kindness and
love.
And how do we exhibit that toour families and to our people?
It's something to keep workingon for everybody, I think.
David Nakhla (12:25):
More could be said , but let's keep rolling to our
last scenario.
You're about to lock up thebuilding, Sunday afternoon.
You're the only one around.
Which of you does that describethe last guy around?
That's us, that's my family.
We're usually the last onesaround.
Just as you're about to head out, two women walk through the
(12:45):
door.
They greet you in a friendly,normal manner.
After a quick greeting and alittle bit of an awkward pause,
one of the girls say that wehave a question for you.
We love your building.
We want to host a wedding here.
Do you allow outsiders to havetheir wedding here?
In a friendly manner, you sayyeah, at times we have allowed
non-members to host a weddinghere.
It's not something we do allthe time, but sure we'd consider
(13:08):
it.
Do you know when you'rethinking?
She says the dates are flexibleand would like to do it next
summer, which is almost a yearaway, but that date will be
chosen based on the availabilityof the building.
You say great, we have a coupleof deacons that handle this.
She gets a huge smile on herface, turns to the other girl
and says honey, we found ourwedding place.
You're now worried that if yousay no, there will be a lawsuit.
(13:32):
All right, brothers, what doyou do?
Are there policies your churchought to have or has in place to
aid you?
Maybe you could describe whatthose are.
John Voss (13:42):
We have a policy, and I think every church,
especially in this day and age,needs to have specific policy
about this.
Obviously, if you're a memberof the church member in good
standing then of course theanswer would be yes, except in
this case because of the twowomen.
We have upon occasion allowednon-covenant OPC members or
(14:08):
people to be married in ourchurch, but only from other
Reformed denominations that theOPC has relations with.
So we've had a PCA couple.
We've had members of other OPCcongregations that have been.
You know, you're more thanwelcome, but If you don't have
(14:32):
that policy, you're walking.
This is a walking invitation toconfront the other side of the
world but also find out what canhappen when you aren't prepared
properly.
And the deacons need to take astep up in this too, as well as
(14:53):
the elders, of course.
But the deacons need to be someof these guys that need to be
involved in this too, as well asthe elders, of course.
But the deacons need to be someof these guys that need to be
involved in this.
This is in our church anyways.
It was a deacon matter ofsetting up these policies as far
as use of the building, becausein our church, the deacons are
not just benevolence but also infinances, and we'll call it the
(15:18):
capital of the church, of thecongregation.
And so, yeah, we've got.
We set policies up like thisjust in anticipation of this
kind of stuff.
Maybe you wouldn't have donethis 40, 50 years ago, but today
you've got to be prepared forit.
And as far as getting out ofthis, once they said that he
(15:40):
would say, well, we still haveto get this approved by the
elders of the church and then atthat point now you can take
them down a notch, prepare themfor a possible rejection.
Doug Vos (15:57):
Others.
Yeah, I would just reiterate,really, what John said is every
church should have a policy forweddings and building use, so
hosting all kinds of thingsdinners, dances, weddings.
People are going to ask ifyou've got a nice fellowship
hall that's got a lot of spaceand people want to use it for a
(16:17):
family reunion, whatever.
It should all go through areview and one person shouldn't
commit, just like in some of theother scenarios we talked about
today.
It's not a good idea to for oneperson to promise anything you
know, say, okay, let's check onthat for you.
maybe there's an online form forthem to fill out, like a Google
form or something, to fill outtheir name, address, phone
(16:39):
number, why they want to use it.
Of course, this girl, kind oflike snuck up on them, surprised
them with this, so that's avery difficult situation, but
that's why you need a policy inplace in the first place.
David Nakhla (16:55):
You need to have a policy in place and your
deacons need to know about thepolicy.
John Voss (17:00):
Yeah, the deacon or deacons need to be prepared to
give that answer.
That's right, almostautomatically.
That's right we can consider.
Bob Keys (17:10):
Bob, I think wording is always so important in our
policies.
We need a lot of wisdom onexactly how to do it so that we
have flexibility but that weeliminate the possible things
for our protection.
Planning a policy forprotection is what I PPP.
Planning a policy forprotection that doesn't mean we
(17:33):
have to stick with everything.
Protection, that doesn't meanwe have to stick with everything
.
I like the idea of being ableto move out in certain cases,
but it's got to be worded sothat we restrict and protect our
churches from lawsuits and theworld pointing their finger at
the church.
And so wording is important andI encourage us to think about
(17:54):
how we word it so that we do itright is important, and I
encourage us to think about howwe word it so that we do it
right.
David Nakhla (18:00):
We heard what John's church's policy is.
If you know what your church's,policy is.
Bob Keys (18:05):
Would you guys mind sharing?
It, I think ours is we onlyhave members for weddings.
And again I think we have roomto maneuver that a little bit.
But we make it clear we don'twant to have any issues and we
make it very clear members ingood standing and so again, but
we we can move around it, but ingeneral we just don't want any
problems.
And so we have clear, clearwording that we can show anyone
(18:29):
that wants to see it.
This is our normal policy, thatwe normally use, and this is
how we, how we run.
David Nakhla (18:36):
Yep.
Thank you, L ynne.
Lynne Hunter (18:38):
We have a policy we do allow our building to be
used by outside people.
In this situation, myself, orthe other two or three people
that would be the last ones inthe building, would know that
our response would be you willhave to call the secretary on
(18:59):
Tuesday morning to get the formsthat will have to be filled out
, and the building committeewill review it at the
appropriate time.
Yep.
David Nakhla (19:11):
Good.
Well, thank you, brothers, forbeing here today.
This has been super helpful,lots of good insight.
Thank you for your service tothe church over your years and
even in this way, and we justhope that our fellow deacons
will find this discussionhelpful and encouraging as they
labor for their congregations inChrist's name and for the
(19:37):
deacons listening today.
Is there a diaconal situationyou'd like to have discussed on
the Reformed deacon?
Maybe you're struggling with aparticular circumstance at your
church that you might like a fewseasoned deacons to help with.
We hope to record an episodesoon where we take audience
questions, after removing namesand identifiable details, of
course.
Send your questions to mailM-A-I-L at thereformedeacon.
(19:59):
org.
Mail at thereformedeacon.
org.
Thank you, brothers.
Bob Keys (20:06):
Thank you.
David Nakhla (20:08):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformeddeacon.
org.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes, and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again next month for anotherepisode of the Reformed Deacon
Podcast.
Every church should have a policy for weddings and
building use.
David Nakhla (00:05):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
My name is David Noggle and Iserve as the administrator for
(00:27):
the OPC Committee on DiaconalMinistries.
Thanks for coming back tolisten to part two of the Real
World Cases, policies andProcedures episode.
Our group of four-season deaconsBob Keyes, Doug Voss, Lynne
Hunter and John Voss continueconsidering two more scenarios.
Let's get right back into thelast two scenarios.
You're one of the two busydeacons in a smaller OPC.
(00:50):
Your church recently startedgrowing, has just begun to
consider candidates for churchoffice.
It's welcome news, since yourwork life has gotten busier.
One man being considered for thediaconate, though, has you a
bit concerned.
Sam's a nice guy, but you'dnotice he can sometimes be a
little rough around the edges,shall we say.
(01:12):
He doesn't seem to initiateconversations or approach
newcomers, and you'd notice hecan be somewhat abrupt with his
family, his wife and hischildren.
He's in church most Sundays.
You believe from conversationsyou've had with him that he
loves the Lord has a good graspof scripture, but wonder about
his people skills.
(01:32):
An older woman in the churchshared with you her
apprehensiveness about Sam,which only seemed to elevate
your concerns.
After he's been examined by thesession, you've learned that
Sam has been confirmed to be putbefore the congregation.
Should you express yourconcerns or trust the session
knows best.
John Voss (01:54):
Too late.
The session's confirmed himalready.
David Nakhla (01:58):
Well, he hasn't been elected yet.
John Voss (02:00):
He hasn't been elected yet.
I think the elders, while theyare the rulers of the church,
the elders should be seekinginput as well from the deacons.
That's my opinion and it ispractice at our church.
There is a practice before anomination is confirmed shall we
(02:22):
call it or whatever the deaconswill be consulted.
Now, then again, we also dothings a little different, where
we're like the model that wecame from, where the elders and
deacons meet once a monthtogether.
You have a council meeting, theelders meet one night, the
deacons meet the same night, butthey're separate, and then two
(02:42):
weeks later you discuss yourbusinesses with each other as
much as possible concerning theelders, but the deacons then
discuss their business with theelders at that meeting.
And that point, that's when wehave consultation.
We'll just say input.
I'll also say this we've neverrejected anybody, but I do think
(03:07):
it's important that there besome input, because these people
have to work together, and justthe more input you can get, I
think the better off you are.
David Nakhla (03:19):
Next John Others.
Bob Keys (03:22):
This is the most important topic we have.
This topic is about the Churchof Jesus Christ.
It represents the Church and tome, it's the most important
thing that we do.
We have had numbers of issuesin our church regarding men that
(03:45):
were not qualified because oftheir lives, what they did and
how they did it, and we suffered, and the world saw.
We suffered from making unwisedecisions.
We didn't know the men, thedeacons and the elders that we
put in office, and I'm not goingto go into stories, that isn't
(04:08):
the right time, but I can tellyou we must guard the office of
elder deacon.
These are offices of leadershipand I believe we need
discipleship, men's discipleshipgroups that disciple men before
we even start the process ofinterviewing them and going over
(04:29):
theology.
We need to know these menthoroughly, inside and out.
I mean going to their houses,bringing them to our house,
walking side by side with them,getting to know them deeply,
before we allow them even tothink about becoming elders and
deacons, because we have seenthe effects of not doing it.
(04:51):
And I've talked to my pastorsrecently pleading with them to
be wise, think carefully andlet's do discipleship before we
even start classes to teach mentheology.
It's a lot more than theology.
You can see this man here hasissues with his wife and
(05:12):
children.
You can see the rough edges.
We have members that see it aswell.
If you put it up for a vote,they'll vote amen because they
don't know.
Our job as leaders is toprotect the office of elder and
deacon.
They're important offices,they're important offices,
they're high offices.
They got to be guarded and weare the ones to guard them.
You can decide different waysof doing it, but we've got to do
(05:34):
it better than we have.
David Nakhla (05:36):
Thank you, Bob.
Lynne Hunter (05:37):
So I'll jump in from my experience and I think
I'm not saying that we have it100% right, but I think we have
a system at Harvest that helpswith this.
All our men in leadershippositions have to go through
leadership training class led byone of our elders, and it
(05:58):
doesn't matter if you're elderor deacon, you still have to
take the exact same class.
So that's first point.
The second thing is isdepending on what office they
are going to go in, they end upin a internship program one year
before they're even brought tothe congregation.
(06:18):
So they get go to leadershiptraining, then they get, they
have interview with the session,then they end up in as an
intern either of the elders orthe deacons and the deacon
interns.
They come to the meetings justlike any other deacon.
They're allowed to speak at themeetings just like any other
(06:39):
deacon.
We will take them out forvisiting on certain cases.
So we see them perform for ayear and a couple of times they
weeded themselves out, realizedno, this is not for me.
Other times we've gone back tothe session and said this person
(07:01):
needs more training in this.
We have two interns right nowthat ask can we intern for
another year.
One had just gotten married andhas a child and he wants to see
how it's going to work with thefamily before he jumps into
this full-time all the time.
So even in a small church, oneor two deacons, I would suggest
(07:23):
that you come up with trainingand time for testing before we
go put a person to thecongregation.
David Nakhla (07:32):
Yeah, let a man be tested before he serves, isn't
that?
It sounds like a biblicalconcept.
John Voss (07:38):
Yep, john.
So when they're interning, howinvolved do they end up being
when you're considering a caseor cases?
Because they're not yetordained, but they're going to
be hearing information.
You know private personalinformation.
Are they allowed in on that?
Lynne Hunter (07:58):
Yep, they're allowed in on it.
We have a deacon's meetingtonight where there will be a
father at that deacon's meetingthat is going to be talking
about some personal things.
Those interns will be in thatmeeting but they are told, you
know, when they come on boardthey're told that this is the
rules that we abide by.
You know, they get the sametreatment as everybody else and
(08:20):
most of the times the youngerones, the ones that just started
out, kind of sit there and justlisten, don't say anything.
The younger ones, the ones thatjust started out, kind of sit
there and just listen, don't sayanything.
And then you can see as theymature in their internship they
get a little bit more bold tospeak.
John Voss (08:32):
Oh, okay, it's a good concept actually.
Bob Keys (08:34):
We do that.
We have an internship, we dosimilar things as you do, but
what my concern is is that ifyou aren't walking side by side
with a man, you don't know himRight, and I am really saying
you've got to know, really knowthese men before you allow them
(08:57):
to take the office, because wehave been burned and it's hurt,
it's hurt our congregation andhurt our witness.
I like what you're doing, but Ithink you can still get full.
You really have to know thesemen and we did not know some of
the other men that we've had upfor office before.
Really know them, and I thinkyou need a couple of deacons and
elders really listeningcarefully to their family and to
(09:19):
them and watching them Everystep.
You've got to know them.
I've learned this out of 40years.
You've got to know the men thatare going up for leadership.
If you don't know them, thechurch will be hurt.
Lynne Hunter (09:31):
Bob, this is pointed at you but anybody can
jump in.
Does your church practicechurch visitation, and do you do
it with an elder and a deaconor just the elders?
Bob Keys (09:42):
We haven't had as much visitation as we needed, but I
am starting this month, in twoweeks, to visit with my elder.
I have a new elder.
He's been a deacon for 10 yearsNow.
He's a he's an elder and we'regoing to do a visitation on a
regular basis to all the peoplein our care, our shepherding
group, and I can't wait, I can'twait.
This is going to give me anopportunity to to encourage our
(10:06):
congregants, to use their gifts,to encourage them the gifts I
know and begin to know what kindof situations we have in terms
of men that would be gooddeacons and elders in our church
as well.
So working together with anelder, I think, is critical and
so important in the shepherdingand care in a congregation.
David Nakhla (10:29):
Other thoughts.
Anybody else got any thoughtson this.
Do you guys think that youshould speak to Sam about these
concerns?
Do you think that would befruitful?
Doug Vos (10:39):
I think you should have a private conversation with
Sam and talk to him about hispeople skills understanding.
He has a good grasp ofscripture.
I would appeal to him withscripture, come armed and ready
with a number of scripturepassages that talk about the
fruit of the spirit, talk aboutcorrecting and gentleness.
(11:01):
Try and work it through withthem.
I mean, you might even findthat you are serving with
another deacon that sometimeshas a short fuse right and he's
already in the diaconate.
That happens from time to time.
You'll find that you're in achurch Not all the deacons and
elders are always going to seeeye to eye about everything, so
(11:22):
it's how to have healthydiscussions together without
getting angry at each other,right.
So it may work out for Sam, butI mean, if he's not ready, like
I'm so glad to hear about thechurches that have internships
we talked about that a bit inour congregation with the next
group of deacons that we'rebringing in is have the
(11:44):
classroom instruction, gothrough all the theology, talk
through some case studies, watchsome old videos from deacon
summits, listen to some reformeddeacon podcasts and then do an
internship, and the whole timeworking through, does this
deacon exhibit the fruit of theSpirit If they don't.
One of the notes here is justtalking about do they have
people skills?
(12:05):
It looks like they don't havepeople skills.
Work through that with people,brother, we know you know
scripture, but let's work onsome gentleness and kindness and
love.
And how do we exhibit that toour families and to our people?
It's something to keep workingon for everybody, I think.
David Nakhla (12:25):
More could be said , but let's keep rolling to our
last scenario.
You're about to lock up thebuilding, Sunday afternoon.
You're the only one around.
Which of you does that describethe last guy around?
That's us, that's my family.
We're usually the last onesaround.
Just as you're about to head out, two women walk through the
(12:45):
door.
They greet you in a friendly,normal manner.
After a quick greeting and alittle bit of an awkward pause,
one of the girls say that wehave a question for you.
We love your building.
We want to host a wedding here.
Do you allow outsiders to havetheir wedding here?
In a friendly manner, you sayyeah, at times we have allowed
non-members to host a weddinghere.
It's not something we do allthe time, but sure we'd consider
(13:08):
it.
Do you know when you'rethinking?
She says the dates are flexibleand would like to do it next
summer, which is almost a yearaway, but that date will be
chosen based on the availabilityof the building.
You say great, we have a coupleof deacons that handle this.
She gets a huge smile on herface, turns to the other girl
and says honey, we found ourwedding place.
You're now worried that if yousay no, there will be a lawsuit.
(13:32):
All right, brothers, what doyou do?
Are there policies your churchought to have or has in place to
aid you?
Maybe you could describe whatthose are.
John Voss (13:42):
We have a policy, and I think every church,
especially in this day and age,needs to have specific policy
about this.
Obviously, if you're a memberof the church member in good
standing then of course theanswer would be yes, except in
this case because of the twowomen.
We have upon occasion allowednon-covenant OPC members or
(14:08):
people to be married in ourchurch, but only from other
Reformed denominations that theOPC has relations with.
So we've had a PCA couple.
We've had members of other OPCcongregations that have been.
You know, you're more thanwelcome, but If you don't have
(14:32):
that policy, you're walking.
This is a walking invitation toconfront the other side of the
world but also find out what canhappen when you aren't prepared
properly.
And the deacons need to take astep up in this too, as well as
(14:53):
the elders, of course.
But the deacons need to be someof these guys that need to be
involved in this too, as well asthe elders, of course.
But the deacons need to be someof these guys that need to be
involved in this.
This is in our church anyways.
It was a deacon matter ofsetting up these policies as far
as use of the building, becausein our church, the deacons are
not just benevolence but also infinances, and we'll call it the
(15:18):
capital of the church, of thecongregation.
And so, yeah, we've got.
We set policies up like thisjust in anticipation of this
kind of stuff.
Maybe you wouldn't have donethis 40, 50 years ago, but today
you've got to be prepared forit.
And as far as getting out ofthis, once they said that he
(15:40):
would say, well, we still haveto get this approved by the
elders of the church and then atthat point now you can take
them down a notch, prepare themfor a possible rejection.
Doug Vos (15:57):
Others.
Yeah, I would just reiterate,really, what John said is every
church should have a policy forweddings and building use, so
hosting all kinds of thingsdinners, dances, weddings.
People are going to ask ifyou've got a nice fellowship
hall that's got a lot of spaceand people want to use it for a
(16:17):
family reunion, whatever.
It should all go through areview and one person shouldn't
commit, just like in some of theother scenarios we talked about
today.
It's not a good idea to for oneperson to promise anything you
know, say, okay, let's check onthat for you.
maybe there's an online form forthem to fill out, like a Google
form or something, to fill outtheir name, address, phone
(16:39):
number, why they want to use it.
Of course, this girl, kind oflike snuck up on them, surprised
them with this, so that's avery difficult situation, but
that's why you need a policy inplace in the first place.
David Nakhla (16:55):
You need to have a policy in place and your
deacons need to know about thepolicy.
John Voss (17:00):
Yeah, the deacon or deacons need to be prepared to
give that answer.
That's right, almostautomatically.
That's right we can consider.
Bob Keys (17:10):
Bob, I think wording is always so important in our
policies.
We need a lot of wisdom onexactly how to do it so that we
have flexibility but that weeliminate the possible things
for our protection.
Planning a policy forprotection is what I PPP.
Planning a policy forprotection that doesn't mean we
(17:33):
have to stick with everything.
Protection, that doesn't meanwe have to stick with everything
.
I like the idea of being ableto move out in certain cases,
but it's got to be worded sothat we restrict and protect our
churches from lawsuits and theworld pointing their finger at
the church.
And so wording is important andI encourage us to think about
(17:54):
how we word it so that we do itright is important, and I
encourage us to think about howwe word it so that we do it
right.
David Nakhla (18:00):
We heard what John's church's policy is.
If you know what your church's,policy is.
Bob Keys (18:05):
Would you guys mind sharing?
It, I think ours is we onlyhave members for weddings.
And again I think we have roomto maneuver that a little bit.
But we make it clear we don'twant to have any issues and we
make it very clear members ingood standing and so again, but
we we can move around it, but ingeneral we just don't want any
problems.
And so we have clear, clearwording that we can show anyone
(18:29):
that wants to see it.
This is our normal policy, thatwe normally use, and this is
how we, how we run.
David Nakhla (18:36):
Yep.
Thank you, L ynne.
Lynne Hunter (18:38):
We have a policy we do allow our building to be
used by outside people.
In this situation, myself, orthe other two or three people
that would be the last ones inthe building, would know that
our response would be you willhave to call the secretary on
(18:59):
Tuesday morning to get the formsthat will have to be filled out
, and the building committeewill review it at the
appropriate time.
Yep.
David Nakhla (19:11):
Good.
Well, thank you, brothers, forbeing here today.
This has been super helpful,lots of good insight.
Thank you for your service tothe church over your years and
even in this way, and we justhope that our fellow deacons
will find this discussionhelpful and encouraging as they
labor for their congregations inChrist's name and for the
(19:37):
deacons listening today.
Is there a diaconal situationyou'd like to have discussed on
the Reformed deacon?
Maybe you're struggling with aparticular circumstance at your
church that you might like a fewseasoned deacons to help with.
We hope to record an episodesoon where we take audience
questions, after removing namesand identifiable details, of
course.
Send your questions to mailM-A-I-L at thereformedeacon.
(19:59):
org.
Mail at thereformedeacon.
org.
Thank you, brothers.
Bob Keys (20:06):
Thank you.
David Nakhla (20:08):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformeddeacon.
org.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes, and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again next month for anotherepisode of the Reformed Deacon
Podcast.
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