32. Be a Model Not a Martyr with Calisa & Holly of Moms Matter Now

Episode Transcript
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Natalie (00:00):
On today's podcast, I chat with Holly and Khalisa of
Moms Matter.
Now, a platform for educatingand empowering moms in their
mental health We talked aboutsharing the load, what the deal
is with intrusive thoughts,setting yourself up for success,
ways to avoid maternalgatekeeping and more.
They've created a signatureonline course called Expected
Moms, empowered Moms, and youcan find them@momsmatternow.com

(00:23):
and on Instagram and Facebook atMoms Matter Now.
Welcome to the Resource Doulapodcast.
I'm Natalie, your host, and mygoal is to equip you with the
tools and information you needto make informed healthcare
decisions while having some funalong the way through engaging
interviews with experts,personal stories, and insightful
commentary.
I'll save you the time andeffort of.

(00:45):
Sifting through countlesssources on the internet,
consider me your personalresource dealer because if I
don't know the answer, I canconnect you with someone who
probably does.
So whether you're a seasoned tohelp guru or just starting your
journey, I hope this showinspires and encourages you
every step of the way.
I'm excited to introduce myguest for today.
First up is Holly.

(01:06):
Holly is a sibling to tripletsand a mother of twins.
Her greatest fear in life hasalways been losing herself in
the transition to motherhood.
Her journey includedinfertility, pregnancy loss, and
postpartum anxiety.
Holly is a retired Olympicathlete, and today is a
therapist whose passions includeteaching women self-advocacy
skills.

(01:26):
It's her mission to spread herpersonal mantra, which is taking
care of yourself, is taking careof your children.
Next up is Calisa.
Growing up, Khalisa played amotherly role to her three
significantly younger siblings.
When she became a mom herself tothree girls each born at home,
she expected it to comenaturally, so she was surprised

(01:47):
to experience postpartum anxietyfollowing baby number two.
Professionally, she serves asthe executive director of a
local nonprofit and is a smallbusiness owner.
Khalisa has recently masteredunique ways of fitting exercise
and self-care into her busyroutine, and looks forward to
teaching other moms to do so aswell.
Her personal mantra is, I can doanything, but I can't do

(02:10):
everything.
Holly and Khalisa, welcome tothe Resource Doula podcast.

Holly (02:27):
Thanks for having us.

Calisa (02:28):
Thanks for having us, Natalie.

Natalie (02:30):
Absolutely.
I thought it was so fitting thatit's may we're when we're
recording this and it's maternalmental health awareness month,
so perfect timing.
Um, I know a little bit abouteach of you, but I don't know
how you guys met each other anddecided to pursue this project,
so if you could talk a littlebit about that, it would be

(02:50):
great.

Calisa (02:51):
Sure.
Um, Holly and I actually met onthe phone, um, in a previous
life of, I was ski coaching ather alma mater Whitman College
in Walla Walla, Washington.
And she was, um, a high schoolin junior club coach here in
Anchorage, Alaska.
Um, so she would send somewonderful recruits my way and we
would talk on the phone.

(03:12):
So that was our, our firstmeeting.
I think in person we might havemet at a ski race, a national
championship or something, ayear or so later, maybe that
same year.
And then, um, a few years later,I can't remember dates, but 20,
let's see, 2011, I guess.
I was pregnant with my firstchild and my husband and I were
both finalists for a job here inAlaska, ski coaching.

(03:34):
And, um, I'll have to say I was,you know, as, as much as I love
ski coaching, I was, uh, pushingfor him to get the job because I
had never been a mom before and,um, didn't know what that was
gonna be like being on the roadall winter.
So, um,

Holly (03:49):
um,

Calisa (03:50):
He got the job in Anchorage and we moved to Alaska
and Holly was one of the mostwelcoming people, um, for us as
we came to this new, new placefar away from both of our homes.
Um, she was the first one tohave us over for dinner and
introduced us to, um, somefellow, you know what, who had

(04:10):
also become friends.
And, um, I guess, um, it's therest of the story.
Uh, we just, yeah, developed afriendship over the years and
has gotten deeper as our, our,um, we both became moms.

Natalie (04:23):
Awesome.
So did you guys have kids at thesame, like similar times,
similar age kids?

Calisa (04:28):
So I, um, was definitely, that was definitely
hard to come to Alaska, beingpregnant, not knowing very many
people.
And no one had, no one had kidsat the time.
So my oldest is 11.
Um, my youngest is six andHolly's twins are, um, five
months younger than my, myyoungest.
So those three are, are quitethe crew.
Mm-hmm.

Natalie (04:46):
Awesome.
do they all ski?
That's what I wanna know.

Calisa (04:51):
They do.
They're all little rippers.
Yeah.

Natalie (04:55):
Awesome.
Um, okay, so you guys, youdecided at some point like, moms
are not getting enough care,enough mental health support and
that kind of catapulted intocreating this mom's matter.
Now did you start with thecourse?
Did you start with the concept?
How did it all unfold?

Holly (05:16):
Well, to just back up a little bit, I think this is
something that Khalisa and Ihave both been thinking about
for a long time, just feelingthe impact personally, um, you
know, for ourselves, but thenalso just observing mothers and,
you know, birthing people aroundus.
Um, you know, I kind of share itin my, in my bio or my why on

(05:37):
our mom's matter now website.
Um, but I really observed my momlosing a lot of her passions
and, um, her profession really,um, when she had my triplet
siblings and I, you know, I'veshared for a long time, well

(05:58):
before having kids that one ofmy biggest fears in life was
losing myself to becoming amother.
So it's something that I've beenthinking about for a very long
time, and then became a motherafter a.
Long, um, infertility andpregnancy loss journey.
Um, so it was a, a prettyintense entrance into the

(06:18):
process.
Um, and then it's just reallybeen on the forefront of my mind
for a long time.
And, you know, it's somethingthat Kasa and I have like talked
about on and off, uh, for again,a lo a long time.
And then we were actually on ahike.
Um, a bunch of moms went toSeward for kind of a retreat and

(06:40):
Clea, I think it was your firstnight away from Siggy,

Calisa (06:43):
Mm-hmm.
From all three?
Yeah,

Holly (06:44):
from all three.

Calisa (06:46):
Mm-hmm.

Holly (06:46):
And we were on a, a hike with, uh, lots of, lots of other
moms.
And we, I don't know exactly howwe got into this conversation,
but you know, essentiallyKhalisa and I both, uh,
disclosed that we had, um, youknow, some postpartum anxiety,
um, and specifically.
Experienced some intrusivethoughts, and that I think was a

(07:08):
pretty connecting moment.

Natalie (07:10):
Hmm.

Holly (07:10):
Um, because it's a highly stigmatized issue.
No one really talks about it.
And then we started talkingabout it more and there's a lot
of power in being able to talkabout hard things to
destigmatize, hard things, tonormalize hard things.
Um, and then it's kind of gonefrom there.
So we talked about it for a longtime.

(07:31):
We talked about wanting to dosomething and then the pandemic
hit, right?
We all know 2020, and we werejust observing.
I kind of think is like a, acrisis, um, to feminism.
You know, it seemed like, um,moms or if, you know, a, a

(07:52):
female partner, um, you know, ifit was a heteronormative
relationship, they were the onesgiving up their jobs to stay
home,

Natalie (07:59):
Hmm.

Holly (07:59):
um, for online schooling.
And, you know, it was just areally hard time for, for
everyone.
And so, in a weird way, theCovid Pandemic was a catalyst
for starting moms matter now,

Natalie (08:14):
Wow.
Yeah.
2020.
It feels like it was yesterdayand like 10 years ago at the
same time.

Calisa (08:20):
Absolutely.

Holly (08:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Natalie (08:23):
So if you're comfortable sharing, um, I'm
kind of curious as to your ownjourney into motherhood and
your, your journey withinfertility and pregnancy loss.
How do you feel like you weresupported by, by the people
around you at that time, and howdo you want that to change for
people?
Going through that now?

Holly (08:45):
You know, it's a, it's a good question.
I think a lot of, um, thatsuffering happens in silence and
no one really talks about it.
And I think that there are somestudies that have essentially
concluded that infertility andpregnancy loss can be more

(09:05):
stressful than a cancerdiagnosis.

Natalie (09:09):
I believe it.

Holly (09:10):
And Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And so that's really hard, and Ithink that everyone has their
own process in terms of how theydeal with it.
There are internalizers in theworld and there are
externalizers in the world,right?
People who want to be veryprivate about their process and

(09:33):
people who.
Wanna make an Instagram storyabout it every day and
everything, and everything inbetween.
And so, you know, I would reallyhesitate to say, Hey, this is
one thing that we should do.
Um, but I, I do want to say thatit is really helpful to share
with people in your trustedinner circle.

(09:55):
And, you know, I will say that,um, probably after, after both
of my pregnancy losses, likeKhalisa was the one who was
there.
She was, you know, dropping offcare packages in my mailbox and
she was the one who just knewintuitively, like how hard that
was.
And that was, that was reallypowerful to, to have her

(10:18):
support.

Calisa (10:20):
And I, you know, I'll just say too, like, I, I didn't
have that experience, you know,I didn't have infertility, but
went through, went through what?
What goes through my mind when Ihear of it is just like I.
What you can imagine, you know,you, you can just imagine what
that person is feeling and sojust trying to think what would,
I don't know, you know, what Iwould need, but I can, again,

(10:41):
imagine what could be a littlebit helpful, just recognizing, I
might not have the word rightwords to say, but you know, I
think, I don't know, I think Isent like tea and BA salts and
chocolate or something.
Like, you just, you don't reallyknow, but you just want them to
know that you care.

Holly (10:55):
care and that was perfect.
And, and you know, and I've, Ifelt seen.
Right.
Even though she hadn't had thesame, the same experience, but I
felt seen and I felt reallyloved.

Natalie (11:10):
And that's important.
I feel like a lot of people justdon't talk about miscarriage or
pregnancy loss aid.
And so they, like you said, theysuffer in silence and then
people around them also don'tknow how to support if they
haven't heard them share aboutit.
So, um, yeah, if we could shiftthe social norms and constructs

(11:32):
around what it means to besupportive of, of moms and
birthing people, I think theworld might be a much better
place.
Um, I'm sure you guys agree.

Holly (11:42):
absolutely.

Natalie (11:43):
Yeah.
Um, okay.
Can we like pause and do alittle bit of a definition of
perinatal mood and anxietydisorders, postpartum
depression.
There's a lot of terms beingthrown around, especially this
month.
So if you could kind of givelike a rundown of what means
what and.
Maybe what what to look out for

Holly (12:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
That's a lot.
I'll try.

Natalie (12:08):
I know it's a long question.
You can break it down.

Holly (12:11):
Well, I mean, may is mental health awareness month in
general, but then it's alsomaternal Mental health awareness
month.
Right.
And I think at this point, mostpeople know what postpartum
depression is.
Right.
And people actually even justuse the term postpartum for
short, right.
As this, like all inclusiveterm.

(12:32):
Um, but p a s stands forPerinatal Mood and Anxiety
Disorders.
And the perinatal period iseverything from pregnancy to one
year post post-birth.
Right.
Um, however, a lot of theseissues can happen well outside
of that time window.
And so peds is this allinclusive term for all of the

(12:57):
mood and anxiety disorders thatcan be brought on by pregnancy.
And so this includes postpartumdepression, but it also includes
postpartum anxiety, O C D, um, PT S D, right?
Psychosis, um, birth trauma,right?
Like they're, it, it's much morethan postpartum depression.

(13:20):
And so, you know, I think a lotof people don't understand that
and they might think in theirmind, well, I'm not feeling
depressed, so it's, you know,or, or, um, I've never been a
mom before.
This is just, I guess, how itis.
Right.
And there's so much normalizingbecause you might not really

(13:42):
know.
And our society does a reallygood job of glamorizing
motherhood and doing all thesethings, um, such that if you're
not having that like pictureperfect IG experience, you're
hesitant to bring it up becausethere's a lot of shame involved.
And no one wants to be a bad momor a bad birthing person, right?

(14:08):
And so it, it gets reallycomplicated quickly, and it's
really important to know that,you know, a lot of these issues
can be spurred on duringpregnancy, during those hormonal
changes.
So it's not just in that, Afterbaby arrives that after that
postpartum period, um, uh, youknow, it can, it can happen, um,

(14:30):
at really any time in thisprocess.
And what people don't understandis that peds are the most common
complication of childbirth andpregnancy, right?
We, there are, there are so manyprecautions taken, um, you know,
for gestational diabetes or youknow, this or that, right?

(14:50):
There are so many tests andthings that we do, but really no
one is talking about theemotional and psychological
changes and clea.
And I like to say, when a babyis born, so is a mother, right?
And there's a term for that.
It's called trence.
No.
And most people that we run intohave never even heard of that
term.
And what it means is it's likeadolescence, right?

(15:14):
Everyone knows what adolescenceis, but it's characterized by a
changed in identity and a hugehormonal shift.

Natalie (15:19):
Hmm.

Holly (15:20):
And Tressen, it's the same thing.
It's a huge change in identityand a huge hormonal shift,

Natalie (15:27):
Makes so much sense.

Holly (15:28):
all of the focus is on the baby, and none of the focus
is on the mom or the birthingperson or the partner, right?
So that was one of the bigdriving forces for creating
mom's matter.
Now it's like, hey, moms mattertoo.
And you know, if the mom, um, isdoing well, chances are the baby

(15:49):
will benefit from that, youknow, in, in terms of having,
you know, developing a secureattachment and being cared for
in, you know, a positive way.
So, I don't know, did I answerall the questions or maybe
please has

Natalie (16:05):
think you did.

Calisa (16:05):
Well, I just had one follow up in that.
You know, Holly mentioned whenwe shared our intrusive thoughts
with each other.
I mean, that was years after ourkids were born and for me that
was, you know, I'd had themafter my second, but, Um, this
trip was after my third.
So, um, there's so much shameand during those thoughts and
feelings, like there's no way Iwas gonna tell, um, my midwife,

(16:29):
my partner, my best friend, myprimary care provider, because
you, your brain immediately goesto what will happen to me, what
will happen to my baby if Ishare.
Um, and so I think just like amessage to get across is like,
there's so much regret and notgetting help immediately, you
know, because then you live withthat for forever.

(16:50):
Um, and just think of what thatmotherhood experience would've
been had I gotten help rightaway, um, and realize that
that's normal and just on a pathto more joy, um, rather than it,
you know, I guess who knows why.
Like we happened to be in thatsame trip at that time and that
happened.
But just to think back to likehad, had I shared earlier, um,

(17:12):
it would've been a more positivejourney immediately after that
birth.

Natalie (17:17):
Yeah.

Holly (17:18):
we have a whole video on that

Calisa (17:20):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.

Holly (17:22):
cause we want people to know in advance.

Calisa (17:24):
Mm-hmm.

Natalie (17:25):
Yeah, I was just gonna say, awareness is probably the
best thing to do.
Like let people know that thatis maybe not normal, but very,
very common.
Um, during, during,

Holly (17:36):
would say it's normal.
I would say it's normal andcommon.

Natalie (17:39):
Okay.
Yeah.

Holly (17:40):
Not everyone's going, going to experience it, but, um,
but people need to know that itis normal and common.
So, like Khalisa said, they cansay something about it and, and
get the help that they need.

Natalie (17:53):
And it's not gonna be a scary consequence if they admit
to those thoughts.

Calisa (17:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Your brain goes to worst casescenario, like, I'm gonna be
taken away from my child.
Um, and that's not true.

Natalie (18:04):
Yeah.
So what is the approach tosomeone who's having those
intrusive thoughts?
Like what is the, I mean,treatment plan is probably not
the right term, but what is the,the approach to healing that or
feeling better or getting thehelp that you need?

Holly (18:20):
Well, I think it really involves talking and sharing
with the right person.
Um, because yeah, for sure ifyou, um, share some of those
thoughts with someone that hasno idea, um, maybe they, they
might actually be, um, worriedor upset and you never really
know what someone's gonna do.

(18:41):
So I think it's important to goto someone that you trust and
someone that has training andexperience, um, in, in this
field.
And so, I know, I think we weretalking about, um, Talking about
resources later.
But psi, which is PostpartumSupport International, they have
a helpline.
Um, there's also a maternalmental health, um, hotline.

(19:03):
Right.
But also if you go to thepostpartum.net, their website,
they also have a list ofproviders, um, that, uh, of
therapists that have, um, what'scalled a PM M H C.
It's a certificate in perinatalmental health, um, right there.
Um, and so, yeah.

(19:25):
Yeah, exactly.
And so, you know, maybe thatfirst disclosure is to someone
that has training in this area,right?
And they can help you navigatethat.
Um, because it can be reallyscary just going and talking to
anyone, um, because they mighthave no idea.
They might have no idea what,what to do.
So I would go to postpartum.netfind.

(19:47):
Um, You know, find someone thathas training in this space and
start there.

Natalie (19:52):
Perfect.
Perfect.
Um, and then what might thatlook like?
So if somebody is currentlypregnant, listening to this and
maybe starting to get worried,like, I'm, I might experience
that I need to have things inplace and people in place and I
need to know where to go.
Um, I always have people ask melike, how long until I'm better,

(20:13):
like, how many months will ittake for me to feel like myself
again?
Um, so I don't know if you guysget that question as well.
Um, but is there a timeline for,for anybody.

Calisa (20:27):
Hmm.

Holly (20:27):
every, every timeline is, is different.
Everyone's, everyone'sdifferent.
Everyone is an individual.
But that is also the reason whyKasa and I spent a year, um,
building our Moms Matter now,course called expectant moms.
Empowered Moms.
And it is really, um, Bringingtogether everything that we wish

(20:49):
we knew as an expectant mom or amom with young children.
Um, and combining that withevidence-based practices and
exercises.
Um, and that's, that's why wecreated that.
And in theory, um, Pregnantpeople would take this when
they, when they are pregnant.
And so I think of it as aproactive preventative measure,

(21:12):
right?
Because we know that earlyintervention for mental health
really matters.
And our society has a tendencyto be very reactive, right?
Like, we're not gonna doanything until things are dire,
right?
And it just shouldn't be thatway.
It shouldn't be that way.
People should have the supportfrom the beginning.

(21:32):
And so, you know, of coursewe're biased, but we would love,
you know, for, for people to beable to take this course and
know in advance, Hey, what arethe things, uh, it's called
coping ahead, right?
What are the things that I couldencounter and how can I feel
empowered to go get the supportthat I need?
So I would say if someone'sreally worried when they're

(21:54):
pregnant, get a therapist now.
Right.
Line up that mental healthsupport now.
Right.
And create that care team now.
Right.
Um, but postpartum, you know,after, after the baby comes,
there are huge hormonal changes.
Um, right after, you know, itprobably, you know, as well or

(22:17):
better than us.
Right.
Um, you know, big hormonalchanges around, you know, day 2,
3, 4, 5.
Right.
But then there is this timewindow where it's normal to have
what's called the baby blues.
Right.
And that can, you know, usuallylast for two or three weeks.
Right.
And then in theory, Maybe peopleshould be feeling a little bit

(22:41):
better, but if they're not, youknow, we, we always look at the
timeframe.
We look at severity, right?
We look at how it's impactingyour ability to be an active,
nurturer and caregiver, right?
And at some point it goes frombeing, Hey, this is someone
experiencing the baby blues to,hey, now we're getting into the

(23:02):
realm of a perinatal mood or anxanxiety and, and or anxiety
disorder.

Natalie (23:06):
Okay.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Thank you for clarifying thattoo.
Um, Can you guys talk about yourcourse?
Like what is, what is inside ofyour course?
Um, how long is it?
Is it video based?
Is it like reading based?
Um, yeah.
How much does it cost?
All of the things.

Calisa (23:25):
Do you want me to take that?
Um, so our course is 10 modulesor, um, yeah, nine modules, 10
hours of content,

Holly (23:33):
content.

Calisa (23:34):
uh, over 30 videos.
And we cover, um, we start withintroducing ourselves.
We want everyone to hear our ownstories.
Um, and then we talk about, um,per perinatal mood and anxiety
disorders, cognitivedistortions, mom guilt, mom
rage, body image.

(23:54):
Um, very, very thorough course.
Um, covering content that, to behonest, like.
Even going through this course,like as we were building it, I
didn't realize that a lot of myown experiences had even names
to them.
Right.
And definitions.
And so I think that's where alot of this course can really be
helpful in, um, normalizing,eliminating the shame and, um,

(24:18):
yeah, putting, puttingdefinitions and names to, to
experiences for expectant and,and new mothers and, and
birthing people.
Um, the course is$197 and it'stake it at your own time.
Um, really we try to eliminateany mom guilt wherever we can.
Um, so you have an a year totake it and, um, can also be

(24:40):
earbuds audio.
Um, Every module has, uh, toolsfor action.
So there's homework, um,homework and parenthesis, hub,
uh, um, and, uh, a lot ofresources.
So we try to, you know, rereadall the books so you don't have
to like, all the highlights fromall the, the books out there.

(25:02):
Um, you know, all in includedin, in the course.
So, um, it's, yeah, we arebiased, but it's wonderful in
really everything we wish wewould've had.
So creating this, you know,positive change for the next
generation of mothers.
And, you know, for our own kids,if they become parents, that
things can be different for themthan what we had.

Holly (25:23):
Mm-hmm.
I will just add that, you know,with the 30 plus videos, it's
really digestible and that it'skind of like, Hey, I wanna go
learn about this one thing.
Right?
And so some people take it fromstart to finish and take a notes
and all that kind of stuff,right?
Um, but other people are like,I, I just had a huge episode of

(25:46):
rage.
I wanna go see what like Hollyand Clea have to say about rage
and like what I can actionablydo about it today, right?
And how I can think about it.
So it is kind of ego pick andchoose.
Um, you know, Clea mentionedthat you can do like audio only,
and so you can have it ear, buttin, you know, while you're doing
the dishes or multitasking.

(26:06):
Um, yeah, yeah, we wanted tomake it comprehensive but
digestible at, at the same time.
And

Natalie (26:13):
Yeah.

Holly (26:13):
maybe this is, uh, a good opportunity.
To share that we actuallyreceived a grant from the Alaska
Mental Health Trust Authority,um, with help from Recover
Alaska.
And this is really, really,really exciting.
Um, because the grant allows usto share the course with 250

(26:35):
individuals.
Lusa sharing the low flyerthere.
Um,

Natalie (26:40):
I brought it out.

Holly (26:41):
oh, thank you.
Yeah.
Um, in an equitable fashionbecause, you know, we, we do
think that, um, if you purchasethe course, we do feel like you
are getting, um, an amazingdeal, but we also don't want
financial barriers to exist.
Right.

(27:01):
And so we are so thankful tohave these grant funds to give
it away for free.
And, um, two, two people, we dohave some qualifying criteria,
so it isn't like a, a free forall.
Um, But then we're also able to,um, give people gift cards for
taking the course, which ispretty awesome when you think

(27:24):
about it.
And so this is a proactive,preventative, maternal mental
health strategy or course.
And what we know is that if wecan prevent things from
happening or catch it early, youknow, there's less suffering,
but it's also a lot cheaper forour healthcare system,

Natalie (27:43):
Right.

Holly (27:43):
right?
And so, um, imagine that, and,you know, paying people to take
it, it that, that still worksout financially as well.
But you know, from a therapistperspective, there's something
called Maslow's Hierarchy ofNeeds, right?
And it's kind of like thistriangle and it's kind of like
you can't really afford to.
Engage in education if you don'thave your basic needs met,

(28:06):
right?
That, that's at the bottom ofthe triangle, right?
So at the bottom of the triangleis like food, shelter, safety,
you know, all, all of thesethings.
And so we recognize that noteveryone has like this extra
time to watch and listen tothese videos.
And so that's why we'reactually, um, with some of these

(28:26):
grant funds, paying people.
To ingest this information.
And then in theory, you know,the vision is maybe they're
buying diapers or formula orsomething that they need for
their family, um, with, with thefunds.
And so we're ecstatic about it.
And, um, you know, we're, we'rehoping that we can find ways to

(28:51):
further this process.
Um, I will say that, uh,criteria number one is you do
have to be Alaskan.
So it's only, this is, the grantis only available to Alaskans,
but the course is availableavailable for purchase
worldwide.

Natalie (29:06):
cool.
Cool.
What an incredible resource.
Oh my gosh, I'm so excited toknow about you guys.
I think I saw you on Instagramand um, and then it wasn't until
I met Holly in person at theBaby Fair last month.
I was like, oh my gosh, now Iknow who you are and what you do
and you know, I like todistribute resources, so I will

(29:26):
definitely be recommending allof, you know, all of

Holly (29:30):
Well, well, and we're so, we're so happy to know about you
and your services, right?
Because all of the emphasis ison the baby and, you know, your
whole, you know, program andapproach to, you know, pelvic
floor health and getting back tobeing physical.
That is, that's self-care for,for the mom.

(29:51):
So we're really happy to, youknow, support your work and know
about what you're doing as well.

Natalie (29:56):
I love it.
Love it.
Yeah.
And I think, I mean, you guyswould probably agree with me.
I'm just gonna assume here thatthis course would be an amazing
baby shower gift or a Yeah, oreven a postpartum gift, like
whatever it may be, rather thansome more, you know, cute
clothes from Target.

Calisa (30:13):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Natalie (30:15):
We have enough of those.
Right?

Holly (30:18):
Clothes.
Clothes, cute.
Baby clothes are not, not gonna,it might give you a little
dopamine hit, but that's, that,that's about it.
It's not, it's not, uh,sustainable for, for mental
health.

Natalie (30:29):
Yeah.
Um, one question I did have, doyou guys have in the course
strategies for improvement, likeyou're learning about all of the
different conditions, all of thedifferent diagnoses, um, and how
to deal with them in thatmoment, but do you also include
like tools that I can use forthe years to come to deal with
this, you know, postpartumanxiety or if, you know, if

(30:51):
somebody has another kid downthe road, um, and they've gone
through the year of your course,can they still, you know,
utilize those tools that they,they learned?

Holly (31:02):
Absolutely.
Um, you know, as Calisa sharedearlier, you know, we have like
P D F attachments to a lot ofthese, these modules.
Um, and you know, I think a lotof these skills are lifelong
skills, right?
So even just being aware thatthoughts are thoughts.
Right.
And that you don't have to, Idon't know that your thoughts

(31:23):
aren't like reality, right?
And so in one of the videos, forexample, we introduce like, what
is C B T, cognitive Behavioraltherapy, right?
It's this idea that, you know,our thoughts create our
feelings, which then create ouractions, right?
And, you know, we, we have likeentire exercises and worksheets

(31:44):
about like, writing down yourthoughts and then, you know,
creating kind of a thoughtrecord and then learning how to
like, reframe and rephrase yourthoughts, right?
And, you know, that is, that isa lifelong skill.
C B T is the gold standard withthe most, you know, the ev the
most evidence-based, um, Youknow, evidence, you know, for,

(32:10):
for lots of mental, mentalhealth issues.
But, you know, it, it's, it'sabsolutely a skill.
Um, and, you know, these are nottemporary lessons.
These, this is not temporaryinformation.
Um, again, we're biased, but Ido think it's potentially life
changing.
And, you know, we have had,people have, you know, people

(32:30):
who have had baby number one,have had a really hard
experience, then they engage inthe course, they have baby
number two, and they're like,wow, that was an entirely
different experience.
Right?
have also had moms that maybeare done with their child
bearing, but in fully engaged intheir child rearing, right?

(32:51):
And, you know, going through thecourse, it actually gives them
skills that they can use for therest of their lifetime.
And, you know, um, movingforward, but also, You know, one
of the definitions of trauma ortrauma therapy is creating
meaning from your experience.
And so sometimes, like havingthese concepts explained to you,

(33:16):
all of a sudden your brain has away to organize your experience
in a way that it's never donebefore.
And that can be really healingand really impactful.
So, I know I got a little cut upwith your question, but
Absolutely.
These are lifelong skills, um,that will help you for, for the

(33:37):
rest of your life.

Natalie (33:37):
Amazing.
Yeah, I just kind of wanted totalk more about that.
I know, um, with online coursessometimes there's hesitancy, um,
to purchase something if it'snot going to benefit for the
long run.
I mean, you guys, it's anamazing deal, the 1 97 that's
like incredible.
So, um, yeah.
Thanks for sharing more aboutthat.

(33:58):
Um, So I got to see a littlevideo of Khalisa in a shirt that
said, be a model, not a martyr.
And you guys talk about this alot.
So can you explain the meaningbehind that phrase and, and, um,
what you're tr the messageyou're trying to get across with
that?

Calisa (34:16):
sure.
Yeah, I'll start.
I'm sure Holly will have thingsto add.
Um, it definitely was hermantra, um, to begin with.
And I guess maybe subconsciouslyone that I've tried to live
without not having the, theofficial name, but, um, it's so
easy to fall into this trap ofwhen you become a mother to.
Just care about those aroundyou, your kids.

(34:39):
And, you know, we forget aboutwho we were before we had
children.
You know, were we an athlete, anartist, a, you know, whatever
our interests were, um, why didthey go away?
You know?
And so we really try to live by,you know, we're still a person.
We still matter and we stillhave interests outside of being
a mother.

(34:59):
And what are ways that we can,we can keep those?
And also modeling that for ourchildren so that they don't see,
wow, I wouldn't wanna become amom if this is what motherhood
is about.
Like, I want to remain, youknow, interesting and have, um,
passions too.
And so we, we really try to, um,instill that, you know, in our

(35:22):
own lives.
But yeah, model that for ourchildren, that their life
doesn't have to stop once theybecome a mom.

Natalie (35:29):
Awesome.
So you're basically sayingyou're a cool mom.
That's what I'm hearing.

Calisa (35:34):
Oh.

Holly (35:37):
I, you know, I mean, we, we try, but it's this idea, and
I, I see this all around, um,that, like Clea said, mothers
are just giving up theirinterests.
They're giving up theirpassions, right?
And we know that, um, being amother is time intensive, right?
We know that sometimes, like youhave to put your own.

(35:58):
Interests and passions, um, tosleep for a little bit.
But how can you touch on themand, you know, experience them
every now and then so that youdon't become this ultimate
martyr?
Because I will tell you, I mean,just observing clients here in
the therapy room, or eventeenage clients, I'm hearing

(36:20):
about, you know, what their momsare, are saying, and you know,
they're full of resentment.
They're full of resentment forgiving everything to their
children.
And just because Khalisa and Iare focusing on being models,
not murders, doesn't mean thatwe don't love our children less.

Calisa (36:35):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Holly (36:37):
Right?
And, you know, I think it's okayto love our children.
And also I want my daughter tosee me going out for a run
because, you know, it'simportant for my mental health.
It makes me a better mom.
And if she chooses to have kids,I want her to do that too.

Natalie (36:56):
Right, right.
And one could argue that you'reloving your children more by
taking care of yourself andmaking sure you're not, not
losing who you are.

Holly (37:06):
So one of the, uh, videos that we have in our course is
towards the end, you know, wewant everyone to create a
motherhood mantra,

Natalie (37:15):
Ooh.

Holly (37:15):
and, you know, it has to be aligned with your values.
And, you know, we have a wholevideo on cre, you know, like
becoming clear on what yourvalues are and creating some
like individual values, but thenalso family values.
And then we walk people throughthe process of creating their
own mantra for motherhood.
And CLEs and I both, both shareours, but mine is taking care of

(37:37):
yourself, is taking care of yourchildren.
Right.
And I cannot tell you how manythousands of times I have told
myself that, right?
Because, and it's almost athought correction in a way,
because that mom guilt starts toseep in because maybe my kids
want them, want me to read thema story or something like that.
And I'm trying to get out thedoor for a run.

(37:59):
And that guilt is just gawing atme, right?
And I have to say, Hey, nope.
Taking care of myself is takingcare of my kids.
Right?
And that is, you know, thatthought, that phrase right?
It allows me to get out the doorso that I can be more present
with them so that they see medoing the things that are
important to me.
And that, so I don't, I don'tlose that.

(38:21):
And I'll tell you that, youknow, physical exercise, you
know, being a, um, you know, aformer professional athlete and
you know, it's, um, living inAlaska, like, this is what I
live for, right?
And if I like, didn't do all ofthat stuff, not only would I be
a shell of my, my former self,right?
But it's really important to meto be strong and to be competent

(38:46):
because guess what?
Kids grow fast and I don't wannabe left, left behind, right.
I wanna be able to hike up themountain with them, and I don't
wanna be sitting in camp becauseI can't do it, so I have to take
care of myself.
Right.
Pelvic floor included.
Right.
Um, and it's, it's so importantbecause, so taking care of

(39:09):
ourselves also allows us to havemore years with our kids.

Natalie (39:14):
Yeah, I say motherhood is the ultimate strength
workout, and I truly believethat

Holly (39:20):
Yes, yes,

Natalie (39:21):
like a Spartan race a little bit more while you're
carrying a toddler, but Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I love that.
I kalisa.
I wanna hear more about yourmantra.

Calisa (39:32):
Oh yeah.
Mine is, I can do anything.
I can't do everything.
And I think I just realized overthe years, like I, I'm very
handy.
I, um, I do a lot of things.
Um, I've got that from my ownmother.
You know, if the dishwasherneeds being fixed, she was the
one to fix it.
If a woodshed needed to bebuilt, she was one to build it,
cooking nice meals, like it, itdefinitely came from her and

(39:55):
that instilled in me.
But just because I can doanything doesn't mean I have to
do everything.
And so, um, you know, findingways to delegate, um, or divide
out, you know, tasks that I knowthat my partner can do.
And now as my kids are gettingolder that they can do, um, and
just reminding myself that Idon't have to take it all on and
do everything.

Natalie (40:16):
Yeah.
Awesome.
I think I need to create one formyself.
I'm so inspired.

Holly (40:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Calisa (40:24):
Mm-hmm.

Natalie (40:25):
um, okay.
Also, something we've talkedabout before recording is
maternal gatekeeping.
Can you guys expound on that,what it means and what we can do
about it?

Holly (40:38):
So this is one of my favorite, favorite, favorite
topics.
And of course we have a video onit.
And, um, I think it happenssubconsciously to most of us
without understanding it.
Um, and essentially maternalgatekeeping is a mother or
birthings birthing person'srefusal to let someone else,

(41:00):
even their partner, um, perform,uh, tasks such as feeding,
changing.
Clothing, putting kids to bed.
So it's this idea that I'm theonly one that can do it.
I'm the only one that's allowedto do it.
And I mean, it makes sense,right?

(41:21):
Because we're the ones who arecarrying the child, right?
And often the partner issometimes in denial that a child
is going to appear until itactually appears, right?
When we've been like feeling thekicks in our bellies the whole
time, or you know, whatever,half the pregnancy.
Um, but what happens is all of asudden we become the expert on,

(41:45):
on the child, and then thepartner, um, gets, you know,
just becomes disengaged, right?
They lack confidence because themom or the birthing person
doesn't allow them to do it.
And then all of a sudden, thenwe become the only one that can
do it.
Then the partner, you know,loses confidence and just then,

(42:08):
then those, those habits justhappen time, after time, after
time.
And then the kid will only go tobed with one person, or only be
fed by one person, and thenguess what?
That person's trapped.
That person's stuck.
That person has no, you know, nocapacity or room to engage in

(42:28):
their passions.
Right?
And then that other person issitting there and they're saying
like, Hey, well darn, like I'mnot good at this.
Okay, I'm just gonna go dosomething else.
Then person A, the mom getssuper resentful and mad at the
at person B for not helping, butthey've engaged in gatekeeping
and they've locked the otherperson out, right?

(42:50):
And so there's so muchdiscussion about the mental
load, the emotional labor, thedomestic duties, right?
And what we know is that.
You know, there is a bigdisparity, right?
But it's not just the partnerthat's to blame.
It's sometimes the mom and thebirthing person has created that
environment.
And so we want people to knowabout this concept in theory

(43:14):
ahead of time, right?
And it's so hard, but guesswhat?
Like the birthing person needsto leave and they need to leave
the partner with the babybecause it's not fair for that
partner to learn how to become aparent.
With the mom peering over themand micromanaging and all of

(43:36):
that.
It's not, it's not fair, right?
And so I know that maybe this isa controversial thing, but like,
Hey, when the baby's two weeksold, mom needs to leave the
house.
Maybe it's only 20 minutes, butguess what?
Like that partner needs to havetime alone, and they need to
learn how to be a parent too,without an audience and without

(43:56):
someone telling them thatthey're doing it wrong.
We, we have to learn it too.
But that is how you create anequal partner, and that's how
you, you know, stay away fromwhat we call the volcano of
resentment.

Natalie (44:11):
I wanna hear more about that.

Holly (44:13):
Well, I mean, it is just, it's just like that.
It's like, you know, the moms,they're the only ones that can
do all this stuff.
So then you get stuck doing allthis stuff.
Then you don't get to do thethings you care about.
Then you're mad at your partner.
Right.
Then you're doing all thethings, then you become the
ultimate martyr.
Right.
Without, without meaning to

Natalie (44:32):
And you explode at some

Holly (44:34):
And then you explode.
That's where some of the momrage comes from.
Right.
That's where, you know, some of,uh, the divorce comes from or,
you know, the, the wanting to,you know, wanting to get a
divorce comes from.
Right.
And so we can get ahead of thatby being aware.

(44:56):
Of maternal gatekeeping and justbeing like, Hey, am I, am I, am
I gatekeeping right now?
Like, and what do I, what do Ineed to do?
And of course, like moms andbirthing people, we are the ones
that breastfeed if you choose todo that.
Right.
But that doesn't, that, that'snot the only thing that that
needs to be done.

Natalie (45:17):
Right.
Right.

Holly (45:18):
Right.
And so, you know, what is thedivision of labor?
Can you figure out some ways toempower your partner, um, so
that they're engaged and so thatthey're an active part of
becoming, becoming parents?

Natalie (45:32):
I love it.
I love empowering other people,and I think that's, that's huge.
Um, can you, I'm gonna ask you ahard question.
What about single moms?

Holly (45:44):
Well, I mean, I think a lot of these skills can be used,
um, you know, for, for singlemoms as well.
And we always, we have entirevideos about partners, but we
always say a partner if you haveone.
Right?
So we want to normalize singlemoms.
We want to normalize familiesthat have two homes where we,

(46:05):
you know, there are lots of waysto create a family, right?
And so a lot of these, um, maybethe partner module won't be as
applicable to that person, butthe module about body image,
about cognitive distortions,about p mads, about creating a
motherhood mantra about values,about all of these things, like,

(46:25):
so much of it is applicable,

Natalie (46:27):
Yeah.

Holly (46:28):
And you know, sometimes if you're a single mom, like
maybe you have other people whoaren't.
Blood related, but you haveother people who are involved
in, in your child's life.
And so maternal gatekeepingdoesn't just happen with, you
know, the, the sperm donor orthe dad.
Right.
You know, I know single moms whoare raising their children with

(46:50):
grandparents.
Right.
And maternal gatekeeping caneasily happen with a grandparent
too.

Natalie (46:54):
Yeah.

Holly (46:55):
So it is absolutely applicable.

Natalie (46:57):
Cool.

Calisa (46:57):
I think just being okay to ask for help.
You know, maybe you have afriend, you could do some
childcare trades or just gettingcreative with like what Holly
said, what family is or whatyour community or village is,
and, and be being creative, um,because single mom needs
childcare and so do you know,uh, families of, you know,
couples that are together.

(47:18):
And so just finding ways toYeah.
Create that village.

Holly (47:22):
you know, and I'll just say, um, Khalisa, and I love the
concept of aloe parenting

Natalie (47:27):
Oh, yes.

Holly (47:28):
and it is just this idea that, uh, you know, it seems
like everyone is just, Parentingin their own bubble.
Everyone is just, Nope, this ishow we do it in our family.
Don't enter our bubble.
No one else can do it.
Right.
And my family, or our family andSSA's family, we spent a lot of
time together.
Um, my kids had their firstsleepover at SSA's house when

(47:50):
they were two years old.
were too, you know, and I'm notsaying that everyone else needs
to do that right.
To, to each their own.
However, you know, we have spentenough time together where my
kids are comfortable with her.
They see her as like theirsecond mom, you know, and vice
versa.
Right.

(48:10):
And so this aloe parenting isthis idea that like, hey, if a
kid falls down and skins theirknee, like that kid is
comfortable with lots ofdifferent adults.
Maybe not lots, but at least asmall handful.
Right.
And I'll just riff on this for asecond.
Um, You know, ACEs, which isAdverse Childhood Experiences.

(48:31):
Um, I think maybe some peopleare familiar with that, but I
wanna talk about positivechildhood experiences, and that
is like, how do we createchildren who have secure
attachments and you know, whoare resilient and who can deal
with hardship.
And at the top of the list forpositive childhood experiences,
it's having adults that areoutside of their family that

(48:52):
they trust and that they knowlove

Natalie (48:54):
Hmm.
Wow.

Holly (48:56):
And so in order to do that, we also have to give up
control.
Hey, guess what?
Like, Calissa might not knowexactly how I put my kids to
bed, but she can do it.
can do it.
And, and it creates somecognitive like flexibility for,
for everyone.

(49:17):
There's more than one way to doit.
And, and you know, that createsresilience, which is a lifelong
skill.

Natalie (49:24):
Yeah, it's really interesting to kind of reflect
on that.
And also, I don't know, are youguys on TikTok?

Calisa (49:31):
No.

Holly (49:32):
Not for mom's matter now, but we, in theory, we would be,
but

Natalie (49:37):
I don't post very much on TikTok, um, working on that,
but I consume a lot of TikTokjust to kind of figure out
what's going on.
And I ended up in, um, teenpregnancy TikTok, uh, single mom
TikTok somehow.
Like I just watch all thepregnant videos and, you know,
they get fed to me.
Um, and it's so very interestingand also like the, the

(49:58):
stay-at-home mom TikTok, becausethat's who's making tos on what
they do all day with theirbabies, right?
And so there's kind of like awhole culture of you have to be
able to do all of these thingsif you're staying home.
Um, Which is a, I mean, it's adangerous road to go down.

(50:20):
Um, but like you were saying,the Instagram lifestyle, like if
your life and your motherhooddoesn't look perfect like this,
then maybe it's wrong, maybeit's bad.
And we get all in our head aboutthat.
Um, but then I've also beenseen, which is very encouraging.
People are responding to thosevideos and saying, Hey, I stayed
in bed all day today with mychild and I still have like,

(50:43):
spit up on my clothes and Ididn't go to the store and have
a perfect laundry day and have aperfect meal prep day.
And everything isn't white in myhouse.
There's so much of that, likeall of the kitchens are
perfectly white.
Um, which makes me laugh, butit's an interesting time of our
culture when we're all, like youhave said, parenting in our

(51:05):
bubble and posting like, this iswhat my bubble looks like and
other people are posting, thisis what my bubble looks like.
And people are relentless in thecomments.
And so I wonder.
What impact that's gonna have in10 years.
Like if people don't have theirvillages in person, but they're
relying on, you know, what otherpeople are doing online.

(51:26):
I don't know.
This is a whole

Calisa (51:27):
And I think

Natalie (51:28):
train.

Calisa (51:28):
so many, yeah.
I think so many people forgetthat majority of social media
is, it's people's highlightreels.
Right?
How often are we posting thetantrums or Yeah, the messy
houses.
Um, all of our algorithms arethose perfect houses and yeah,
the, you know, hundred Pinterestactivities that a stay-at-home
mom got through in a day withtheir kid, and it's just not

(51:50):
real.
And um, I think, you know, mymessage is unfollow those
people, like, get that out ofyour algorithm because it's not
healthy for us to be followingthat.
And um, you know, it's hard forus to, for it, for us to believe
that it's not real and that'sreally how these people are
living.
But, um, it's just, yeah, it'snot true.

(52:10):
And so I do appreciate thatpeople are commenting, um, With
the realness, and I think thatmore of that is popping up.
Um, I know one of my favoritesthat I follow is mom life
comics, and I just love how realher stuff is.
And I, I find that, I sharethat, um, mostly with my friends

(52:31):
and even on our mom's, men arenow Paige.
Just yeah.
The realness of, of motherhood.
It's, it's really important.

Natalie (52:37):
Yeah.

Holly (52:38):
I will say we have entire videos about, um, comparison and
what we call what's calledperformative motherhood, right?
When you post that perfect mealor kitchen or whatever, right?
So even just putting names tosome of that, um, can create a
lot of meaning and a lot of, alot of power

Natalie (52:58):
Yeah.
I hadn't heard that term before,so.

Holly (53:00):
perfor, performative motherhood.
And, you know, we also have anentire video about ambivalence
in motherhood, right?
I mean, this is going off on alittle bit of a tangent, but
just this idea that likeeverything isn't always perfect.
We don't always actually.
Like being a mom all the time.
Right.
Or I mean, in theory, like, Ilike it, but there are times

(53:21):
where like I am like, wow, if Ididn't have kids, I'd be doing
this right now.
Right.
So we have an entire videoabout, you know, ambivalence in
motherhood, right?
Just normalizing that we have tonormalize the real stuff, and
that is really one of our, ourbiggest goals with moms matter
now.

Natalie (53:37):
Cool.
Okay.
Speaking of uh, social mediaaccounts and other resources
that you are sharing and givingpeople, what are some of your
favorites?
You already mentioned postpartumsupport, international, um, and
mom life comic.
Is that what it was?
Um, what are some other, likebooks or websites, articles,
blogs, whatever you wanna sharethat you would like to, to give

(54:00):
out.

Calisa (54:02):
You

Holly (54:02):
Well, I thought I'd share two of my, yeah, two of my
favorite books.
And, you know, we did, um, asCalisa said earlier, you know,
we've read a lot of these andactually integrated a lot of,
um, the court concepts in, intoour course.
Um, but one of'em is Fair playby Eve Rodsky, and so a game
changing solution, um, for whenyou have too much to do.

(54:24):
And so, um, this is, there'sactually a documentary version

Natalie (54:29):
Ooh.

Holly (54:29):
as well.
Um, it's, it's like an hour and,you know, I've had lots of
clients, um, watch it andactually even encouraged, um,
male partners of clients towatch it because it's all about,
um, the documentary is about howsome families kind of
reevaluate, um, how they.

(54:52):
Operate as a, as a family.
And they've really gone throughthis process of making their
partner a true partner.
Um, you'll see a little bit of atheme here, but, um, this is, I
love, love, love this book byKate Mangino.
It's called Equal Partners,improving Gender Equality at
Home.
Um, it's no secret that, um,I'll speak for myself, but I

(55:15):
know Kasa too.
We are, we are feminists, right?
And, um, we want to raise strongdaughters who can be models, um,
and not martyrs.
And, and you know, we're, we'rethat, that's a, that's a good
theme for, for us.

Natalie (55:31):
Yeah.
Cool.
I'll have to add those, thosebooks to my list.

Holly (55:35):
they're fabulous.
And you know, they both, um,fair Play has a great Instagram
account.
Um, they also have a secondaryInstagram account called Unicorn
Space.
And I don't know, say you wannatalk about Unicorn Space or you
want me to.

Calisa (55:50):
I haven't, I, I guess I haven't looked in that too.
As much as you have.
You probably know more

Holly (55:54):
well, I mean, unicorn space is just this idea that,
um, and, you know, and there waseven like a New York Times
article about this, like a weekago, and it was talking about
how men have more leisure timethan, than women, right?
Just due to the sole fact thatwomen are doing more of the
domestic duties, right?
If I'm doing dishes and laundryand feeding the kids all the

(56:16):
time, I don't have time to read,I don't have time to engage with
my friends.
I don't have time to pursueentrepreneurial, um, tasks and,
and whatnot.
So unicorn space is, it's, it'ssynonymous with leisure time and
the ability to be a real, a realperson.
And so, following the Fair Playaccount, following the Unicorn

(56:37):
Space account, which is, you canfind it via the Fair play, um,
Instagram account, uh, arethings that I highly recommend.

Calisa (56:45):
I think one book that was really pivotal for me, um,
in finding ways to ad advocatefor myself as a female was, is,
um, Glennon Doyle's bookUntamed.
And she also has a podcastcalled, um, we Can Do Hard
Things.
And she has always has amazingguests.
And I just, that mantra of hersand even her podcast title, we
Can Do Hard Things, hasdefinitely is on repeat in my

(57:08):
brain, in my work life, in mymom life, in my athletic
pursuits.
So, um, I highly re recommendthat one as well.
Podcast and, and the book.

Natalie (57:17):
Cool.

Holly (57:17):
Mm-hmm.

Natalie (57:18):
Awesome.
I also wanna know, well, I haveto always ask your number one
piece of advice for thelisteners.
What do you want everyone toknow?
a hard question.
I know.

Holly (57:33):
If I had one piece of advice for listeners, it's this
idea that like, you don't haveto marty yourself in motherhood.
That's my, that's my one pieceof advice.
There's another way.

Natalie (57:42):
Perfect.

Calisa (57:44):
And I think mine is just, you know, motherhood is
hard and we alluded to itearlier, we discussed that, you
know, social media is in ourfaces and highlight reels are
all around us, but you arestrong and capable.
Earn exactly the mother thatyour kids need.

Natalie (58:01):
I love that.
Okay, so you guys went on aweekend trip to the mountains
and you wanted to share?

Calisa (58:09):
I've just been seeing lately more in families, um, a,
I guess a lack of energy to, youknow, plan and do something.
And it doesn't even have to besomething expensive, something
simple like taking your kidssledding or going for a hike.
But we both understand it is somuch work, it's so much work to

(58:31):
prepare the food, to pack thegear.
Um, but once we are to thatdestination or on, on that
adventure, it is truly avacation for us as mothers and
enjoyment for the kids.
I find that when my kids are outin nature and I've got
everything with us that, that weneed, that, um, they're, they're

(58:53):
not arguing.
Um, and you know, for somewherelike we're camping, we're able
to sit in that camp chair.
Um, oftentimes the food issomewhat prepared, so we're not
having to, to do muchpreparation and it just, it's,
it's really a win-win of usgetting to where we wanna be.
And in this situation, and wecan explain more where we were

(59:15):
and what we were doing, but theparents got to do some physical
activity.
The kids were, it was kind of a,a natural babysitter in this,
you know, environment.
And, um, we know it's a lot ofeffort to get there, but once
you're there, it is so worth it.
And just a tip for families to,if you can find that energy
ahead of time to, to plan andprepare that, um, the payoff is

(59:38):
just, it's so grand.

Holly (59:40):
Mm-hmm.
And just a little background, wewere, um, we were doing some
spring skiing, so, you know, andthis is a privileged thing to
do, but we snow machine to theback of a valley and we were
spring camping, um, which wasreally fun.
And it, but it doesn't have tobe, it doesn't have to be
something like that.
It can be, you know, the effortthat it takes to get to out to
the playground or, or somethinglike that.

(01:00:02):
Um, like Calisa said, it doesn'thave to be expensive.
Just get into the mountains.
And it was so cool.
Our kids were climbing trees andswinging back and forth, right?
It was a natural teeter totter.
They were seals sliding, theywere sliding on their bellies,
you know, down the frozen snowin the morning.
It was awesome.
And then we had, you know, onelittle instance where, In the

(01:00:24):
afternoon or one day, you know,I booted, I hiked up with my
skis to the top of Mount amountain and skied down and it
was really fun.
And the next day, um, Lesa'soldest daughter, um, hiked up,
uh, with a friend and someparents and skied a bigger line
than I did.

(01:00:45):
she comes down to me and says,Holly, how does it feel to be
outs skied by an 11 year old?
And you

Natalie (01:00:54):
that.

Calisa (01:00:55):
The appropriate sass.
That was good.
Yeah.

Holly (01:00:57):
the appropriate sas.
And she was, she was expecting,you know, me to, I don't know,
say whatever.
But my response to her was, I amso proud of you.
That is exactly the

Natalie (01:01:09):
Hmm.

Calisa (01:01:10):
Hmm.

Holly (01:01:11):
she just was silent.

Calisa (01:01:12):
Mm-hmm.

Natalie (01:01:13):
Yeah.

Holly (01:01:13):
I think she realized like, oh, okay.
That was, that was cool.

Calisa (01:01:17):
Yeah.
But also too, like if we're, youknow, we've discussed this
already, but if we're not takingcare of ourselves, like our kids
are gonna come down and saylike, how does it feel to be
beat?
You know, if we're just not ableor capable to do anything near
what you know, what they'redoing.
And so it just reiterates liketaking care of ourselves.

(01:01:38):
You know, we're able to do theseadventures and.
Yeah, it's really hard to keepup with, especially my 11 year
old already.
But that's something to be proudof, right?
You want your kids to be doingbigger lines than you ever have
been able to, and, and modelingthat for them, and you know, and
they're not getting to thatbigger line on their own.

(01:01:58):
Um, you have to take them thereto get them there.
Um, and so, yeah, it's, it's avery like prideful moment of
that this is happening and that,you know, our mantra is working.

Natalie (01:02:11):
I love it.
You guys are amazing.
I so appreciate the time andenergy you spent with me today.
I feel like we could continueour conversation.
We may have to do a part two andpart three.
I have more questions for youalready, but we will, we will
end here.
Um, can you tell our listenerswhere they can find you online,
um, will link all of your socialmedia accounts and websites as

(01:02:33):
well.
Um, and then how would someoneget in touch with you?

Holly (01:02:38):
It's pretty simple.
It's just moms matter now.com.
Um, for our website, we're atMoms matter now on Facebook and
Instagram.
Our dms are always open, um, andif you're in Alaska or
Anchorage, you can find us inthe mountains or at a trailhead.

Natalie (01:02:56):
Awesome.
Thank you guys so much for beinghere today.

Calisa (01:03:00):
Thanks for

Holly (01:03:00):
so much for giving us the platform to talk about

Natalie (01:03:03):
Absolutely.
I so enjoyed learning more aboutmaternal mental health issues
and how moms matter now can helpyou prepare for what's normal
while giving you strategies andtools to overcome those common
motherhood, mental healthstruggles.
I love how committed both Hollyand Khalisa are to educating
others so they don't have to gothrough those issues without

(01:03:24):
support.
Please remember that what youhear on this podcast is not
medical advice, but remember toalways be an active participant
in your care and talk to yourhealthcare team before making
important decisions.
If you found this podcasthelpful, please consider writing
a five star review in yourfavorite podcast app.
Thanks so much for listening.
I'll catch you next time.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}32. Be a Model Not a Martyr with Calisa & Holly of Moms Matter Now

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32. Be a Model Not a Martyr with Calisa & Holly of Moms Matter Now

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