October 19, 2023 • 33 mins
Today's episode is a deep dive into urban and housing development with Nicola Smith, an accomplished urban and regional planner and director of Niche Planning Studio. Expertly navigating the current rental crisis and mortgage stress, she unveils the key factors that have steered us to our current housing crisis. Nicola breaks down terms like green field and brown field, highlighting their significant role in housing development. Together we strategise on how to generate more housing in established areas, promoting affordability, and diversifying our housing types.
Steering the conversation towards government policies, Nicola and I scrutinise their town planning and housing development strategies. We dissect the implications of the policy that earmarks 70% of growth for the inner city and the remaining 30% for the green fields. How will this affect the citizens of established areas? We further delve into the complexities of rejuvenating inner city areas, the potential for overlooking amenity impacts, and the advantages of home-building in green field regions.
Nicola then shares her valuable insights on challenges surrounding housing affordability and service accessibility in Melbourne. We mull over the government's strategic planning efforts and the use of developer contributions in the face of a pressing need for affordable housing. We also explore the cost of apartment living, the possibility of converting offices into residences, and the often overlooked factor of embodied carbon in building construction.
Join us as we unravel the convolutions of Australia's housing market, the struggle for affordable housing, and the impact of 'NIMBYism' (Not in my backyard) on planning and development.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ludwina Dautovic (00:01):
Welcome to the Room Exchange podcast helping
you rent better.
In this podcast, we're havingconversations with industry
leaders in the rental market,along with everyday renters,
sharing fascinating stories,insights and tips to help you
rent better.
Hello and welcome to the RoomExchange podcast.
(00:23):
If you're listening for thefirst time, welcome to the show.
I'm Lidwena Dordovic, your host.
While you're here, please makesure that you subscribe to the
show on your favourite podcastdirectory so you never miss an
episode.
Today I have the pleasure ofhaving a chat with Nicola Smith.
Nicola is a qualified urban andregional planner and director
of niche studio and has over 20years experience in a wide range
(00:45):
of planning and developmentroles.
Nicola is also a strongadvocate for high quality
developments, clearly understoodplanning controls in a strong
and efficient planning system.
Her role as vice president onthe National Planning Institute
of Australia Board gives her theplatform to advocate for best
practice across Australia.
Nicola, thank you for joiningus.
(01:07):
Nice to be here.
That sounds impressive.
I know it does, doesn't it?
Isn't it great when you getyour people to write your bios
for you?
Now we've got a bit of a storyin how we met, and I think it's
quite funny.
Probably says more about methan anything else.
A couple of months back I wason a me break down near Apollo
(01:28):
Bay, went there for a latebrunch with my laptop and you
were sitting on the table nextto me with your laptop and I
think there was another womanwho'd met me at the place I was
staying at the night before.
She popped by and said helloand then all of a sudden I don't
know what it was she waspicking my brains on some of my
organisational skills, and thenyou chimed in and next thing you
(01:48):
know we're having a gas bag andhere we are.
Nicola Smith (01:52):
It was so random, wasn't it?
It was so good because I'd gonedown for a weekend away but
also have a look at somedevelopment sites.
And yeah, you were talkingabout, I think, not having too
many tabs open or somethingobscure.
And I was like, oh, what's thislady talking about?
So, yeah, it was just.
And then I swung my legs aroundand then we sat there and gas
bag for a while.
It was great.
Ludwina Dautovic (02:12):
Yeah, I love randomly meeting people like
that.
Always got to have a chat.
You never know who you're goingto meet, so thank you for
talking to us today.
We have tried a few times toconnect and we finally got here.
I'm really interested inpicking your brains on,
particularly with town planningand housing development.
Obviously, there's a lot ofconversation that's happening
right now with the housing andthe rental crisis, mortgage
(02:33):
stress.
We don't have enough houses orapartments to actually house
people.
There's massive amounts ofpeople that are turning up for
you know rental inspections toapply for a place.
It's an absolute mess and Ithink one of the things that we
need to talk about is how did weget here?
So why don't you firstly tellus a bit more about yourself and
(02:54):
then we'll go into some more ofthe details?
Nicola Smith (02:57):
Yeah, ok, not a problem.
So you said that I run abusiness called niche.
So I've been doing nicheplanning studio for 11 years I
think it was the other day andit's interesting because we
ditched the word planningrecently because we do so much
more than just statutoryplanning.
So because we do urban designand placemaking, strategic
thinking, as well as what peopleprobably normally come across
(03:19):
town planners in, which is thestatutory planning, you know,
getting approvals for homes inthe city or also out in the
suburbs, we decided to sort ofexpand our name a little bit to
reflect what we do and that kindof has reflected what I've done
in my career, which is a notmajor for a while.
So the provision of housing,like you were talking about, you
know, addressing the growththat we're having or due to have
(03:42):
post COVID and where people aregoing to live.
When I was working as adeveloper, you know we were
doing housing out in the greenfields, which is just a fancy
name for the outer suburbs, andtrying to think of what people
wanted, diversity of homes andensuring we were trying to
provide affordability as well as, you know, places where people
want to live really.
So I guess I'm a town plannerthat works in a consulting firm
(04:03):
and I work for councils andprivate to provide homes for
people.
That's pretty.
Ludwina Dautovic (04:10):
OK, so you mentioned the term green field.
Can you do me a favour andexplain what that is, and also
explain what brown fields are?
Nicola Smith (04:17):
Yeah, cool.
So I guess green field is, ifyou think about it.
I guess it's probably come fromthe expansion of our cities
into the farming areas.
So, as our cities have grown,places like Melbourne have
looked at the defined boundaryof the urban area and they've
gone.
You know what?
Let's expand a little bit outto the north or a bit to the
west or down the southeast, andthose areas that the boundaries
(04:41):
expanded has enabled newcommunities to grow, and where
those communities or suburbsgrow, that's generally called
the green fields.
So that would be things likeMelton, wyndham, sunbury, casey,
those kind of areas.
So that's the green fields, andthe opposite is infield, and
you talked about brown fields aswell.
So brown fields is usually, youknow, redevelopment of areas.
(05:03):
What infield is probably whatpeople talk about more these
days.
So that's usually, you know,creating more homes in
established areas.
So whether that's apartments inthe city centre, whether that's
people use this thing calledthe missing middle, which can
often mean housing in thosemiddle ring areas, so like
(05:25):
Monash or Sunshine or somewherearound there.
So yeah, infield is inestablished areas and greenfield
is out on the edge.
Ludwina Dautovic (05:33):
You know, when you get suburbs that have a
massive amount of subdivisionsthat go on.
So Newport is an area we stillhave a house there and we did a
subdivision there oh gosh, Idon't know 15 years ago or
something.
It was a big corner block.
How would you identify thoseareas?
I mean?
Nicola Smith (05:47):
realistically, if it's an existing area, like in
Newport, if it's an existinghouse and you're subdividing,
you know the back of theproperty and putting a house on
that, that's infield You'refilling in the bits that are
already developed.
Well, literally, you know, whenyou drive out to the edge of
suburbia and you sort of see, orwhen you're on a plane and
you're flying over and you sortof see the edge of suburbs and
(06:09):
then it looks like undevelopedland.
Often that's greenfields.
But I think the big thingthat's important is the state
government, particularly inMelbourne or in Victoria, has
defined a boundary that we'reallowed to go up to, and that's
probably one of the things thata lot of us are worried about.
We're pretty damn close to thatboundary right now.
So where does the new housingoccur?
Ludwina Dautovic (06:31):
Right, and so looking at that then and I often
see them when I'm drivingoutside of Melbourne, going, you
know, up to Aubrey, where Icome from you see, it's kind of
expanding even further andfurther out.
So typically those areas havegot houses with three, four
bedrooms, sometimes even moremassive amounts of living spaces
I'll call them McPanchons.
Why is it typically that inthose greenfields houses like
(06:54):
that are being built?
And I'm asking this question?
This will lead into some otherquestions as well, because it's
making the assumption thatmajority of the new housing that
needs to be built are forfamilies or households with
multiple occupants, whereas ifyou look at the statistics
there's more and moresingle-person households or
couples or people not havingkids in smaller homes that we
(07:15):
don't seem to be developing,even in those outer areas.
What's going on there?
Nicola Smith (07:19):
Yeah, completely.
So.
I guess the interesting thingis when we are planning for the
future growth of towns, whereverit is, whether it's in regional
areas or whether it's in on theedge of Melbourne, and you
start to see those expansionareas where there's just
straight-up subdivision withyour big homes on big blocks of
land, usually it's because thereis some demand.
(07:42):
So a developer very rarely willgo oh, I just want to go and
sub-debate this land into 500homes and I haven't done my
market research, I'm just goingto hope that it sells.
Usually what they'll do is theywill look into, well, who is
buying within a 5 to 10kilometre radius of this bit of
land that they own?
Oh, okay, there's a particulardemographic group or there's a
(08:05):
particular cultural group?
Okay, so we're going toleverage off that.
What are those people currentlydesiring?
Oh, okay, there's a majority ofdemand for whatever 650 square
metre lot.
Okay, great, all of theexisting suburbs around it, all
of those 650 square metre lotshave been sold.
Okay, we better provide somemore.
So often that is what adeveloper will do and in fact
(08:28):
we've been working on.
Do you know the estate Aurora?
It's a housing estate that'skind of north of town and it's
been developed on the go,rolling through for quite some
time.
It was a government project andthen it's gone through to
Landlice and it's just.
It's a really interesting,beautiful housing estate Lots of
retained trees yeah, quitepretty.
And they're at the very lastbit and they had an approved
(08:52):
plan of subdivision, which is anapproved location of streets,
location of shops and schoolsand lots, lots of houses.
And they've been talking totheir sales agents in the
existing parts of Aurora andthey're like oh, all these
people are coming into the salesoffice and asking for 500
square metre blocks of land, butthe subdivision design had
(09:14):
created a whole bunch of 200,220, 250 square metre blocks of
land, so smaller for your singleparents or your professional
couples or whatever.
But those blocks haven't beenselling.
It's actually families comingand saying well, we want to put
a 3x2 or a 4x2 on a 500 squaremetre block of land.
(09:34):
They're actually buying up twoblocks of land in Aurora,
amalgamating the two together sothey can put their dream home
on these blocks of land.
So it is really interestingwhere different people choose to
live, why they choose to livein different areas, and I guess
as town planners we need to makesure that we're providing a
diversity of housing across theboard.
Ludwina Dautovic (09:57):
Alright, let's move on a bit now.
So tell me what is thegovernment's focus on town
planning and housing developmentin the next five years or so?
Nicola Smith (10:06):
You and I were kind of talking about this over
breakfast.
So here we were.
There was this policy that cameout like I don't know I
literally don't know 10 yearsago.
Let's say it was called PlanMelbourne.
So 7030 is a policy positionthat the state government
actually had around focusing 70%of growth into the inner city
(10:26):
and 30% onto the green fields.
That's essentially thedirection the government was
taking, I don't know, 10 yearsago or something, when Plan
Melbourne first came out, andthey never really enacted it.
And then this state governmenthas gone hold on a minute.
Maybe this is the key.
Maybe we really need to makesure that 70% happens in the
(10:47):
inner city and 30% in the greenfields, rather than what's
actually happening, which isalmost the other way around.
So yeah, the current stategovernment has been pretty
forceful and they've said thatthey're going to review any new
growth or green field areastructure plans and maybe put a
hold on it, which we're all abit worried about, because we're
a bit worried about housingprovision, and they're going to
(11:09):
focus all the development oninfill, because they're going to
put this 70% in the city centreor around the established areas
and look, to be honest, thepolicy and the principle of that
is great.
But the difficulty that you havewhen you put, say, an apartment
building and you propose it inan established area is, of
(11:29):
course, all these people alreadylive in that area and they get
worried about.
You know the amenity impacts oryou know more parking or
overlooking or whatever happensto be, and it often ends up
being more costly.
And doesn't often get up andcall me cynical, but on the day
that the minister announced itthere was something I think was
(11:49):
the Preston markets developmentwhich was supposed to be like an
infill development and Iunderstand it wasn't
particularly awesome from thecommunity point of view.
So therefore it sort of has gotput on hold.
But you go God, if theintention is to put all the
housing in this inner areas andredevelopment areas and that's
not getting approved, and wherein the world are we providing
these housing areas?
Ludwina Dautovic (12:10):
So in my mind, then why did they do some
research first and find out whatkind of objections they're
going to get from the residentsbefore they put all this work
into even starting to plan it?
And look, I know that gets doneto a degree, because when
anyone's going to do asubdivision now place, we always
get notified of the plans.
But I'm sure that the owner ofthat property Already has gone
(12:32):
down a road of putting somecosts in to get that done right.
So they must do that on alarger scale.
But if I was a resident in neara brownfield In an inner city
suburb, I wouldn't want somebodypeering over my backyard.
I live in out of west andsuburbs in Melbourne and the way
that these houses are built,because my bedroom window
(12:53):
overlooks the backyard of theneighbor and not the side.
We don't have a requirement tohave frosted windows, for
example, right, which isridiculous.
And then I can see into theneighbors backyard.
That's uncomfortable for her.
So we've had to frost thewindows ourselves just to give
her privacy and for us to haveprivacy, and we're in a huge
block here, right.
So there's more developmenthappening.
(13:15):
We're in Williams landing andyou already can't get a car park
at the local supermarket.
Yeah right, and that's in agreenfield area.
Nicola Smith (13:24):
Yeah, completely.
Look, the main thing thatthey're trying to do to get
around it is, I don't know, likeif you know these areas but say
everyone's watching the blockright now.
So say Hampton East, right, andso if you look at Hampton and
they decide that they want toput I don't know, 10 story
apartments up and down the mainshopping street, right, they
(13:45):
would then normally do astructure plan.
The council would normally do astructure plan and put that up
for advertising.
So that's the opportunity wherethey'll say look, this is what
we're thinking, we want to put10 story apartments here, or we
want to put three story on oneside and because of
overshadowing, and six on theother or whatever, and they
would put it out for advertisingand there'd be lots of
(14:06):
community consultation andthere'd be lots of conversation
around it and then that mightresult in an amendment to the
town planning scheme.
But I think what's beenhappening is some of those
examples where structure plansput out, people get to comment
at a high level.
Sometimes people don't engageas much as you want them to.
Sometimes you know, until it'sactually that building that's
(14:28):
being built on your backboundary, you don't really think
about it, and so it is hard.
Like you know, the communitymight not support that structure
plan with all that.
You know it in that example, 10story apartments down the main
street of Hampton or whatever.
So then they will sort of putin submissions to the government
and say, oh, we don't thinkthis scheme amendment should go
ahead and there's an independentreview and then the minister
(14:51):
decides one way or the other.
But it's a process that'sfollowed.
You would hope that thecommunity is getting a bit of a
say.
But if the state government issaying we need X amount of homes
and it has to be in this areawhere all these other people are
already living, it's just a bithard because you've got to
acknowledge all those peoplelike you with your frosted or
not frosted window.
You know you've got to thinkabout what's my impact.
(15:14):
How am I getting impacted bythat new development?
Whereas if you do it out in thegreen fields on the edge of
suburbia, you're creating abrand new community, so you
don't have all that existingcommunity around you.
So it's easier to plan blocksof homes and ensure that they're
hopefully not overlooking eachother, and usually it's easier.
Ludwina Dautovic (15:34):
So, nicola, here's a thought what if,
instead of over developing theinner city areas and removing
more of the limited free space Iguess it's there what if they
actually just built betterinfrastructure in the
Greenfields area so they made iteasier for us to live out here
and easier to get in and out oftown?
We're lucky in Williams LandingWe've got a train station
(15:56):
walking distance, but when wewere living in Point Cook before
, we'd have to drive 20 minutesto get to Hoppers Crossing,
which is ridiculous.
They're very ridiculous.
Nicola Smith (16:03):
Yeah, I totally agree.
So I actually wrote a LinkedInpost every day.
I was so nervous about puttingit up because it was my personal
opinion and I thought, oh God,are people going to like this or
not?
I was relatively well acceptedas a photo of me when I'm about
five, standing on a sandpit outthe front of my parents' house
in the Greenfields in WA, and Iwrote about how, when I was a
(16:24):
kid, I didn't realise that mumhad to catch three buses to get
to the local shops and you know,like that it was all difficult
from an infrastructure point ofview Because, from my
perspective, I played with allthe kids on the road and it was,
like you know, low scale and Ihad a great upbringing.
So I think that's fine.
I've got, you know, rose tintedglasses, how I grew up, but a
(16:47):
lot of the Greenfields thesedays.
The biggest problem is planningis fine.
Like all of the town planners,we all seem to be doing a
relatively decent job at, youknow, designing the future
suburbs and making sure they'vegot all the right facilities
grand.
The thing about planners iswell, he don't implement these
things.
We put them on a plan but wedon't build them, and so that's
(17:10):
the job of either the stategovernment funding the referral
authorities.
So, like your Melbourne watersor your public transport
authorities or your big roads oryou know like, those kind of
authorities are doing their ownforward planning.
And they might look at an arealike where you were and go, oh,
we need to put a train out there, but we don't have enough
(17:31):
people out there for the demandright now.
We're going to hold off andinstead we'll put the money down
in the southeast because that'swhere the demand is, or
whatever.
So they've got their ownstrategic planning based on you
know where they think the demandis.
And the problem is that a lotof that strategic planning done
by some of the big authoritiesjust hasn't been keeping up with
(17:52):
the amount of forward planningthat we're doing for the future
people of Victoria, and sothat's one of the main reasons
that the state government hassaid we need to stop planning
new areas because we need towait for those authorities to
catch up, and that kind of makessense.
But, as you said, it would belovely if, when we planned a
(18:13):
community, that those facilitieswere provided there and then,
because then it would make it somuch easier for the people in
these Greenfield areas.
I do have one quick answer aboutthat answer my own question.
But developers, when theydevelop a new estate, they have
to pay contributions like moneyto the state government and one
of the really interestingconversations in the media has
(18:34):
been around how much the moneythat the developers have been
providing into theseinfrastructure funds, how much
they've been used by thegovernment to actually provide
what they should have beenproviding at those localities.
Because actually there's adiscussion about whether the
money is instead been repurposedfor things like the level
(18:55):
crossing removal and the trainline around the east, you know,
like things that aren'tnecessarily.
You take the money from thedevelopers doing the Greenfields
, which should be providingmaybe, a train out to those
areas, but instead they use themoney to do level crossing
removal authority work in, youknow, the southeast down near
Stonnington or whatever.
There's just been a bit ofdisparity and I think it's not
(19:18):
an end of the world that thestate government's taking stock
and having a rethink.
But, you know, do they reallyhave the luxury of time?
Because we've got more peopleneeding more homes and it needs
to be affordable and where arethey going to live?
Ludwina Dautovic (19:30):
Great, segue, nicola, you read my mind, so I
wanted to shift the conversationover to affordable housing and
before we actually talk about it, I just realized that I'd love
to know what the governmentdefinition is of affordable
housing.
Nicola Smith (19:48):
Oh, don't.
Even.
So, if you were asking, know mein my office, should we give
you this exact, perfect answer?
And I cannot give it to youbecause I always get caught up.
But there's social housing andaffordable housing and there's
housing affordability.
There's like different slighttweaks on a variation.
So I think the biggest thing iswe need to provide housing for
(20:09):
people that are in need.
So there's an actualterminology that says if your
income is under Blartibla, thenyou need to be getting, there
needs to be some support and weneed to be providing housing for
those people.
So there's that group.
There's also key workers thatyou might have a percentage that
you're required to provide forin developments.
But there's the other space,which is ensuring that housing
(20:33):
more broadly is affordable, andso, almost as planned as we need
to think of all three spaces,because we need to ensure that
we're looking after people thatneed housing and maybe can't
afford it, but we also need tobe making sure that housing for
the general public, that we'rethinking about affordability as
a general concern, I guess.
Ludwina Dautovic (20:52):
How do you do that when the building materials
are so expensive and jobsaren't even getting completed?
Nicola Smith (20:58):
Oh, I totally agree.
So there's this really coolLinkedIn article that I'm trying
to remember what the guy's nameis, perkins Perko, wrote on
LinkedIn recently and somethinglike cost of a single bed
apartment.
I'm going to make this up likefour times the cost of a single
house and I was just like what?
(21:18):
Sorry, like the cost ofapartment living, like, if we're
saying that too bad, so sad.
We need to all live inapartments.
We need to live more centrallybecause the broader cost to the
state is less, because we canuse existing infrastructure, we
can be closer to jobs,congestion prices, blah, blah,
blah.
Ok, that makes sense, but if wedon't end up homes that fit
(21:40):
that bill in the inner city andthey have to be built, but the
cost of construction is so high,then I don't know what the
actual answer is.
Ludwina Dautovic (21:48):
I mean, good point, but what about the
conversion of offices that aresitting empty now?
Nicola Smith (21:54):
Yeah, yeah.
So there's a thing.
I went to a talk last nightabout embodied carbon which I
thought was really cool andwhich is all about when we have
buildings with circular economystuff.
So when we're building abuilding, we should do our best
to think about its long termlife or its life cycle.
So we might be building itright now as an office building,
(22:15):
but has it got the ability tobe converted into a residential
building moving forward?
The reason that you do that isso that, just like you said, if
you've got an office buildingand it's got maybe the bottom
three levels as parking andyou've decided to achieve the
minimum height of a car park,which is lower than a bedroom,
(22:36):
then in the future, if you everwant to convert it into a
residential space, you're nevergoing to be able to because
that's always going to be usedas a car park.
So if we can instead thinkabout it at the start when we're
building a building, thatbuilding can stay in situ and
its use can change.
That's the general premise andthat's good for the broader
environment, which is this wholeembodied carbon thing that I've
(22:58):
been learning about.
So we use carbon to construct abuilding, so you extract the raw
materials out of the ground.
You build the building andtherefore there's a certain
amount of carbon that was usedto build that brick, for example
, or put in that column, andthat can be calculated.
And if you keep that buildingas is and you can adapt it and
turn it into homes, for example,from office say, and all you've
(23:21):
had to do is maybe move someinternal walls or change a bit
of a facade, it's actually got abetter environmental output
result, whatever.
Then it would be knocking itover and building a brand new
suite of apartments.
So yeah, there's environmentalbenefits as well in doing that
adaptability.
It's just whether the buildingsright now can be adapted, and
I'm not sure all of them can be.
Ludwina Dautovic (23:42):
Well, I'd imagine that an office space is
obviously going to havebathrooms and kitchens in there.
So wouldn't it be just a matterof you know, like changing
internal walls?
I remember speaking to adeveloper designer a couple of
years back.
It's more of a futurist interms of housing design and
looking at.
You know, if we were to stay inthe one place with the duration
of our life, for example, howcould you build so that you can
(24:02):
just internally easily changethe structure of the room?
So he was talking about wallsthat can be moved.
Or, you know, sections of thehouse that can be divided off.
If you needed a granny flatsort of area down the road, you
know, once your kids grow andleft home, etc.
All these different things thatyou can do internally, I don't
think there'd be that much thatyou would.
Nicola Smith (24:21):
No, I mean like I'm not a builder.
So once you get a planningpermit and then you go to the
building department for abuilding permit, there are
different classifications underthe building code of Australia.
So I imagine from memory fromworking in a council many years
ago, there's particularrequirements if it's an office
building and there's differentrequirements if it's somewhere
that you're going to reside, soit's probably around openable
(24:42):
windows or safety, things likethat.
Ludwina Dautovic (24:44):
Oh, absolutely would be.
Yeah, yeah, I don't imaginethat.
Nicola Smith (24:48):
But you could probably convert that, like you
could probably switch window outor you could probably cause.
I don't know if it's going to bethat hard, but I love that idea
.
There was this really cooldeveloper when I first moved to
Melbourne.
I remember when I met himsomewhere in Essendon, from
memory, and he had got thisapproval for three story
townhouses and they were sort ofbanked up a hill, so maybe say,
(25:10):
maybe, say three rows of them,and then looked out on a water
body and he got it approved as,yeah, these three story
townhouses, but he only builtthem as two story, but he put in
the opportunity for those twostories to be converted into
three stories.
And I always thought that wasso cool because it meant when
the people moved into the areaor they bought that townhouse,
(25:32):
they knew that all those othertownhouses in front of them and
behind them had been approved,perhaps these stories, and they
were just building it at the,buying it at the cost of two
stories, but they had theability to go up and know that
there wasn't going to be likeobjections and blah, blah, blah
and it was all approved plans.
I thought that was cool back inthe day.
I still think that's gotrelevance really.
Ludwina Dautovic (25:55):
So I have one final question before we wrap up
In terms of housingaccessibility and affordability
in areas that get developedwhether it's greenfields,
infields, brownfields is there arequirement to have a certain
level of how ever it is that youidentify affordable housing
within those developments?
(26:15):
Because if you're just buildinghouses or apartments or
whatever, they have a certaincost value to them, and then you
don't have any way for somebodythat's got a lesser budget.
So think back in the day I talkabout this a lot Remember the
block of flats that are now, bythe way, getting renovated and
sold for millions.
But you know, I remember theone two-bedroom walk-ups, the
(26:35):
flats, and I know people say ohyeah, but their apartments say
they're not really.
Apartments are actually quitedifferent to these block of
flats, right?
Totally and you could guaranteethere'd be somewhere in the
suburb A block of flats.
If not, you know two, three,four of them.
They just don't seem to beconsidered these days in any
developments that get built.
So where are people on a lowerbudget, or my kids, for example,
(26:59):
with 30 and 28?
Thankfully they've looked home,but the rents are ridiculous.
Yeah, totally, you know.
If they want to live in theinner city, what are they
supposed to do?
Nicola Smith (27:07):
Yeah, I completely agree.
So I think there is justtalking about this.
With a friend of mine there wasactually looking in Adelaide at
different properties and wewere talking about really
expensive areas, you know, andwhether you could put apartments
in there and would people moveinto the apartments?
And I think there's somethingto be said about people wanting
to live in place.
You know there's a talk aboutaging in place, which means when
(27:30):
you the duana, when you get tobe an old, old lady and you live
in your big McMansion and youdon't want to move out of your
McMansion right, because youlike living in that area,
because you know we friendsaround, hands around, exactly,
and so you know there's a bigpush right now for aging in
place, which is ensuring thatwe've got Smaller housing
options in areas where peoplehave been living in these big
(27:52):
McMansions and then potentially,if they're not character based,
moving those houses into, youknow, developing flats or
apartments or townhouses oroptions.
It's happened a lot in PortMelbourne's.
A lot of young people now livein Port Melbourne because you
know They've kept the characterareas but they've also
redeveloped other areas as well.
But yeah, that question aboutthe affordability stuff, it
(28:14):
could be an angle that the stategovernment could push a little
bit.
Now that I sort of think aboutit, because we talked about in
about five years ago and therewas a lot of discussion about
build to rent.
So that's when like one personowns the whole building.
So like a developer mightdevelop a whole apartment and
essentially rent out all thosedifferent Apartments in that
apartment building.
The idea was that was supposedto be more affordable.
(28:37):
Like I think they've got goodfinance outcomes from the
government for, you know,lending in those areas, but it's
just not really worked.
Some local councils haverequirements for five percent or
one percent provision ofAffordable housing.
When you're doing GreenfieldEstates and if you do it you
know there's maybe a fast-trackprocess or maybe you can provide
(28:58):
greater density.
Or you know like there's a bitof a trade-off, like if you give
us affordable housing, we willenable you to put more houses
into that area or whatever.
So they have all been triallingdifferent ways to do it.
I remember like if you had itat a state government level in
Planning policy and it requiredit, then I think there would be
more teeth and more ways for thegovernment to enforce it.
(29:20):
But right now it's just a highlevel good to do kind of
position, rather thannecessarily something that's
being enforced.
Ludwina Dautovic (29:28):
I think it's something that needs
requirements around it, becauseotherwise it's cool.
It's just a mess, like thewhole housing Situation in
Australia is a mess.
Nicola Smith (29:38):
Well, I mean, I look at one of the girls in my
office who lives in an apartmentin the inner city and you know
she that's a big, massive sortof skyscraper number and she's
came to move into anotherapartment, doesn't want to live
out in the greenfields, reallyhappy with apartment living, but
even for her to rent, like Iremember, and she's like sending
a good pay, she's, you know,had a professional job for five
(30:01):
years, you know like tick, tick,tick, been in a relationship,
all that stuff, and she couldnot get a rental.
And that just blows my mind.
So I think, you know, I guessthis is where the state
government's coming from they'retrying to ensure that there are
more Opportunities forapartments in the inner city.
I don't think that's a badthing, but I think they need to
think more broadly becauseotherwise people are just gonna
(30:24):
say I don't want that.
You know that whole NIMBY notin my backyard.
So, okay, cool, put apartmentsinto enable people to have
cheaper housing, but pleasedon't put it here in my street
in South Melbourne, you know,whatever.
So I think they're gonna have tothink about Strategic areas to
put in.
Is it around the new trainstations or the new train lines
that they've underground.
Probably you know where arethese key areas that people
(30:46):
would go.
Okay, we understand that that'sa good spot, for it enables
people access to transport,doesn't increase the amount of
parking, enables, you know youto get to your employment easier
, all that sort of stuff.
So I think they're on the righttrack.
They just haven't quite landedit and I don't think they've got
the benefit of time.
I think they need to really gettheir skates on.
Yeah and yeah, you know,greenfield is not a bad word.
(31:08):
Greenfield's housing is lovelyas well, so we just need to make
sure we're providing thefacilities out there too.
Ludwina Dautovic (31:14):
Yeah, absolutely, and, for anyone
who's listening, if you arelooking for affordable and
accessible housing, the roomexchange has a number of
homeowners on our platform inspare rooms that are looking for
people to rent them, so that isone alternative.
Now, nicola, before we go, whydon't you tell the listers how
they can find out more about you?
Nicola Smith (31:32):
So sweet.
Well, we are on all the socials, so it's niche planning studio
is the website, sowwwnicheplanningstudiocomau.
We're really active on Instaand really active on LinkedIn.
So, yeah, just look us up andyou can follow me and my team of
.
Well, I know, I reckon they'reprobably average age of about 27
or give or take.
So it's young word, fresh ideas, pretty innovative and great to
(31:55):
work with.
Ludwina Dautovic (31:56):
so reach out Any planning, and we'll have all
those links on our show notespage as well.
So, nicola, I'm so glad that webumped into each other down in
Polo Bay and I'm looking forwardto catching up with dinner soon
.
Nicola Smith (32:08):
Yeah, I'm not sitting in a car like, I'm
literally sitting in a fun melty.
Ludwina Dautovic (32:14):
Well, look, hey, if anyone's listening, you
got to do a podcast interview.
The car actually provides somereally good sound quality, so
how funny will you adapt?
Thank you so much, nicola.
Thanks for listening.
Bye for now.
Bye, thanks for listening.
If you're looking for your nextrental, head over to the room
exchange, australia's firstverified house sharing platform.
Our profiles make it easy tomatch you based on personality,
(32:37):
values and lifestyle, and youcan choose to rent or offset
your rent, saving you time andmoney.
To find out more, go to theroom exchange Com.
You can connect with us acrossour social media platforms at
the room exchange or email Adminat the room exchange comm.
Welcome to the Room Exchange podcast helping
you rent better.
In this podcast, we're havingconversations with industry
leaders in the rental market,along with everyday renters,
sharing fascinating stories,insights and tips to help you
rent better.
Hello and welcome to the RoomExchange podcast.
(00:23):
If you're listening for thefirst time, welcome to the show.
I'm Lidwena Dordovic, your host.
While you're here, please makesure that you subscribe to the
show on your favourite podcastdirectory so you never miss an
episode.
Today I have the pleasure ofhaving a chat with Nicola Smith.
Nicola is a qualified urban andregional planner and director
of niche studio and has over 20years experience in a wide range
(00:45):
of planning and developmentroles.
Nicola is also a strongadvocate for high quality
developments, clearly understoodplanning controls in a strong
and efficient planning system.
Her role as vice president onthe National Planning Institute
of Australia Board gives her theplatform to advocate for best
practice across Australia.
Nicola, thank you for joiningus.
(01:07):
Nice to be here.
That sounds impressive.
I know it does, doesn't it?
Isn't it great when you getyour people to write your bios
for you?
Now we've got a bit of a storyin how we met, and I think it's
quite funny.
Probably says more about methan anything else.
A couple of months back I wason a me break down near Apollo
(01:28):
Bay, went there for a latebrunch with my laptop and you
were sitting on the table nextto me with your laptop and I
think there was another womanwho'd met me at the place I was
staying at the night before.
She popped by and said helloand then all of a sudden I don't
know what it was she waspicking my brains on some of my
organisational skills, and thenyou chimed in and next thing you
(01:48):
know we're having a gas bag andhere we are.
Nicola Smith (01:52):
It was so random, wasn't it?
It was so good because I'd gonedown for a weekend away but
also have a look at somedevelopment sites.
And yeah, you were talkingabout, I think, not having too
many tabs open or somethingobscure.
And I was like, oh, what's thislady talking about?
So, yeah, it was just.
And then I swung my legs aroundand then we sat there and gas
bag for a while.
It was great.
Ludwina Dautovic (02:12):
Yeah, I love randomly meeting people like
that.
Always got to have a chat.
You never know who you're goingto meet, so thank you for
talking to us today.
We have tried a few times toconnect and we finally got here.
I'm really interested inpicking your brains on,
particularly with town planningand housing development.
Obviously, there's a lot ofconversation that's happening
right now with the housing andthe rental crisis, mortgage
(02:33):
stress.
We don't have enough houses orapartments to actually house
people.
There's massive amounts ofpeople that are turning up for
you know rental inspections toapply for a place.
It's an absolute mess and Ithink one of the things that we
need to talk about is how did weget here?
So why don't you firstly tellus a bit more about yourself and
(02:54):
then we'll go into some more ofthe details?
Nicola Smith (02:57):
Yeah, ok, not a problem.
So you said that I run abusiness called niche.
So I've been doing nicheplanning studio for 11 years I
think it was the other day andit's interesting because we
ditched the word planningrecently because we do so much
more than just statutoryplanning.
So because we do urban designand placemaking, strategic
thinking, as well as what peopleprobably normally come across
(03:19):
town planners in, which is thestatutory planning, you know,
getting approvals for homes inthe city or also out in the
suburbs, we decided to sort ofexpand our name a little bit to
reflect what we do and that kindof has reflected what I've done
in my career, which is a notmajor for a while.
So the provision of housing,like you were talking about, you
know, addressing the growththat we're having or due to have
(03:42):
post COVID and where people aregoing to live.
When I was working as adeveloper, you know we were
doing housing out in the greenfields, which is just a fancy
name for the outer suburbs, andtrying to think of what people
wanted, diversity of homes andensuring we were trying to
provide affordability as well as, you know, places where people
want to live really.
So I guess I'm a town plannerthat works in a consulting firm
(04:03):
and I work for councils andprivate to provide homes for
people.
That's pretty.
Ludwina Dautovic (04:10):
OK, so you mentioned the term green field.
Can you do me a favour andexplain what that is, and also
explain what brown fields are?
Nicola Smith (04:17):
Yeah, cool.
So I guess green field is, ifyou think about it.
I guess it's probably come fromthe expansion of our cities
into the farming areas.
So, as our cities have grown,places like Melbourne have
looked at the defined boundaryof the urban area and they've
gone.
You know what?
Let's expand a little bit outto the north or a bit to the
west or down the southeast, andthose areas that the boundaries
(04:41):
expanded has enabled newcommunities to grow, and where
those communities or suburbsgrow, that's generally called
the green fields.
So that would be things likeMelton, wyndham, sunbury, casey,
those kind of areas.
So that's the green fields, andthe opposite is infield, and
you talked about brown fields aswell.
So brown fields is usually, youknow, redevelopment of areas.
(05:03):
What infield is probably whatpeople talk about more these
days.
So that's usually, you know,creating more homes in
established areas.
So whether that's apartments inthe city centre, whether that's
people use this thing calledthe missing middle, which can
often mean housing in thosemiddle ring areas, so like
(05:25):
Monash or Sunshine or somewherearound there.
So yeah, infield is inestablished areas and greenfield
is out on the edge.
Ludwina Dautovic (05:33):
You know, when you get suburbs that have a
massive amount of subdivisionsthat go on.
So Newport is an area we stillhave a house there and we did a
subdivision there oh gosh, Idon't know 15 years ago or
something.
It was a big corner block.
How would you identify thoseareas?
I mean?
Nicola Smith (05:47):
realistically, if it's an existing area, like in
Newport, if it's an existinghouse and you're subdividing,
you know the back of theproperty and putting a house on
that, that's infield You'refilling in the bits that are
already developed.
Well, literally, you know, whenyou drive out to the edge of
suburbia and you sort of see, orwhen you're on a plane and
you're flying over and you sortof see the edge of suburbs and
(06:09):
then it looks like undevelopedland.
Often that's greenfields.
But I think the big thingthat's important is the state
government, particularly inMelbourne or in Victoria, has
defined a boundary that we'reallowed to go up to, and that's
probably one of the things thata lot of us are worried about.
We're pretty damn close to thatboundary right now.
So where does the new housingoccur?
Ludwina Dautovic (06:31):
Right, and so looking at that then and I often
see them when I'm drivingoutside of Melbourne, going, you
know, up to Aubrey, where Icome from you see, it's kind of
expanding even further andfurther out.
So typically those areas havegot houses with three, four
bedrooms, sometimes even moremassive amounts of living spaces
I'll call them McPanchons.
Why is it typically that inthose greenfields houses like
(06:54):
that are being built?
And I'm asking this question?
This will lead into some otherquestions as well, because it's
making the assumption thatmajority of the new housing that
needs to be built are forfamilies or households with
multiple occupants, whereas ifyou look at the statistics
there's more and moresingle-person households or
couples or people not havingkids in smaller homes that we
(07:15):
don't seem to be developing,even in those outer areas.
What's going on there?
Nicola Smith (07:19):
Yeah, completely.
So.
I guess the interesting thingis when we are planning for the
future growth of towns, whereverit is, whether it's in regional
areas or whether it's in on theedge of Melbourne, and you
start to see those expansionareas where there's just
straight-up subdivision withyour big homes on big blocks of
land, usually it's because thereis some demand.
(07:42):
So a developer very rarely willgo oh, I just want to go and
sub-debate this land into 500homes and I haven't done my
market research, I'm just goingto hope that it sells.
Usually what they'll do is theywill look into, well, who is
buying within a 5 to 10kilometre radius of this bit of
land that they own?
Oh, okay, there's a particulardemographic group or there's a
(08:05):
particular cultural group?
Okay, so we're going toleverage off that.
What are those people currentlydesiring?
Oh, okay, there's a majority ofdemand for whatever 650 square
metre lot.
Okay, great, all of theexisting suburbs around it, all
of those 650 square metre lotshave been sold.
Okay, we better provide somemore.
So often that is what adeveloper will do and in fact
(08:28):
we've been working on.
Do you know the estate Aurora?
It's a housing estate that'skind of north of town and it's
been developed on the go,rolling through for quite some
time.
It was a government project andthen it's gone through to
Landlice and it's just.
It's a really interesting,beautiful housing estate Lots of
retained trees yeah, quitepretty.
And they're at the very lastbit and they had an approved
(08:52):
plan of subdivision, which is anapproved location of streets,
location of shops and schoolsand lots, lots of houses.
And they've been talking totheir sales agents in the
existing parts of Aurora andthey're like oh, all these
people are coming into the salesoffice and asking for 500
square metre blocks of land, butthe subdivision design had
(09:14):
created a whole bunch of 200,220, 250 square metre blocks of
land, so smaller for your singleparents or your professional
couples or whatever.
But those blocks haven't beenselling.
It's actually families comingand saying well, we want to put
a 3x2 or a 4x2 on a 500 squaremetre block of land.
(09:34):
They're actually buying up twoblocks of land in Aurora,
amalgamating the two together sothey can put their dream home
on these blocks of land.
So it is really interestingwhere different people choose to
live, why they choose to livein different areas, and I guess
as town planners we need to makesure that we're providing a
diversity of housing across theboard.
Ludwina Dautovic (09:57):
Alright, let's move on a bit now.
So tell me what is thegovernment's focus on town
planning and housing developmentin the next five years or so?
Nicola Smith (10:06):
You and I were kind of talking about this over
breakfast.
So here we were.
There was this policy that cameout like I don't know I
literally don't know 10 yearsago.
Let's say it was called PlanMelbourne.
So 7030 is a policy positionthat the state government
actually had around focusing 70%of growth into the inner city
(10:26):
and 30% onto the green fields.
That's essentially thedirection the government was
taking, I don't know, 10 yearsago or something, when Plan
Melbourne first came out, andthey never really enacted it.
And then this state governmenthas gone hold on a minute.
Maybe this is the key.
Maybe we really need to makesure that 70% happens in the
(10:47):
inner city and 30% in the greenfields, rather than what's
actually happening, which isalmost the other way around.
So yeah, the current stategovernment has been pretty
forceful and they've said thatthey're going to review any new
growth or green field areastructure plans and maybe put a
hold on it, which we're all abit worried about, because we're
a bit worried about housingprovision, and they're going to
(11:09):
focus all the development oninfill, because they're going to
put this 70% in the city centreor around the established areas
and look, to be honest, thepolicy and the principle of that
is great.
But the difficulty that you havewhen you put, say, an apartment
building and you propose it inan established area is, of
(11:29):
course, all these people alreadylive in that area and they get
worried about.
You know the amenity impacts oryou know more parking or
overlooking or whatever happensto be, and it often ends up
being more costly.
And doesn't often get up andcall me cynical, but on the day
that the minister announced itthere was something I think was
(11:49):
the Preston markets developmentwhich was supposed to be like an
infill development and Iunderstand it wasn't
particularly awesome from thecommunity point of view.
So therefore it sort of has gotput on hold.
But you go God, if theintention is to put all the
housing in this inner areas andredevelopment areas and that's
not getting approved, and wherein the world are we providing
these housing areas?
Ludwina Dautovic (12:10):
So in my mind, then why did they do some
research first and find out whatkind of objections they're
going to get from the residentsbefore they put all this work
into even starting to plan it?
And look, I know that gets doneto a degree, because when
anyone's going to do asubdivision now place, we always
get notified of the plans.
But I'm sure that the owner ofthat property Already has gone
(12:32):
down a road of putting somecosts in to get that done right.
So they must do that on alarger scale.
But if I was a resident in neara brownfield In an inner city
suburb, I wouldn't want somebodypeering over my backyard.
I live in out of west andsuburbs in Melbourne and the way
that these houses are built,because my bedroom window
(12:53):
overlooks the backyard of theneighbor and not the side.
We don't have a requirement tohave frosted windows, for
example, right, which isridiculous.
And then I can see into theneighbors backyard.
That's uncomfortable for her.
So we've had to frost thewindows ourselves just to give
her privacy and for us to haveprivacy, and we're in a huge
block here, right.
So there's more developmenthappening.
(13:15):
We're in Williams landing andyou already can't get a car park
at the local supermarket.
Yeah right, and that's in agreenfield area.
Nicola Smith (13:24):
Yeah, completely.
Look, the main thing thatthey're trying to do to get
around it is, I don't know, likeif you know these areas but say
everyone's watching the blockright now.
So say Hampton East, right, andso if you look at Hampton and
they decide that they want toput I don't know, 10 story
apartments up and down the mainshopping street, right, they
(13:45):
would then normally do astructure plan.
The council would normally do astructure plan and put that up
for advertising.
So that's the opportunity wherethey'll say look, this is what
we're thinking, we want to put10 story apartments here, or we
want to put three story on oneside and because of
overshadowing, and six on theother or whatever, and they
would put it out for advertisingand there'd be lots of
(14:06):
community consultation andthere'd be lots of conversation
around it and then that mightresult in an amendment to the
town planning scheme.
But I think what's beenhappening is some of those
examples where structure plansput out, people get to comment
at a high level.
Sometimes people don't engageas much as you want them to.
Sometimes you know, until it'sactually that building that's
(14:28):
being built on your backboundary, you don't really think
about it, and so it is hard.
Like you know, the communitymight not support that structure
plan with all that.
You know it in that example, 10story apartments down the main
street of Hampton or whatever.
So then they will sort of putin submissions to the government
and say, oh, we don't thinkthis scheme amendment should go
ahead and there's an independentreview and then the minister
(14:51):
decides one way or the other.
But it's a process that'sfollowed.
You would hope that thecommunity is getting a bit of a
say.
But if the state government issaying we need X amount of homes
and it has to be in this areawhere all these other people are
already living, it's just a bithard because you've got to
acknowledge all those peoplelike you with your frosted or
not frosted window.
You know you've got to thinkabout what's my impact.
(15:14):
How am I getting impacted bythat new development?
Whereas if you do it out in thegreen fields on the edge of
suburbia, you're creating abrand new community, so you
don't have all that existingcommunity around you.
So it's easier to plan blocksof homes and ensure that they're
hopefully not overlooking eachother, and usually it's easier.
Ludwina Dautovic (15:34):
So, nicola, here's a thought what if,
instead of over developing theinner city areas and removing
more of the limited free space Iguess it's there what if they
actually just built betterinfrastructure in the
Greenfields area so they made iteasier for us to live out here
and easier to get in and out oftown?
We're lucky in Williams LandingWe've got a train station
(15:56):
walking distance, but when wewere living in Point Cook before
, we'd have to drive 20 minutesto get to Hoppers Crossing,
which is ridiculous.
They're very ridiculous.
Nicola Smith (16:03):
Yeah, I totally agree.
So I actually wrote a LinkedInpost every day.
I was so nervous about puttingit up because it was my personal
opinion and I thought, oh God,are people going to like this or
not?
I was relatively well acceptedas a photo of me when I'm about
five, standing on a sandpit outthe front of my parents' house
in the Greenfields in WA, and Iwrote about how, when I was a
(16:24):
kid, I didn't realise that mumhad to catch three buses to get
to the local shops and you know,like that it was all difficult
from an infrastructure point ofview Because, from my
perspective, I played with allthe kids on the road and it was,
like you know, low scale and Ihad a great upbringing.
So I think that's fine.
I've got, you know, rose tintedglasses, how I grew up, but a
(16:47):
lot of the Greenfields thesedays.
The biggest problem is planningis fine.
Like all of the town planners,we all seem to be doing a
relatively decent job at, youknow, designing the future
suburbs and making sure they'vegot all the right facilities
grand.
The thing about planners iswell, he don't implement these
things.
We put them on a plan but wedon't build them, and so that's
(17:10):
the job of either the stategovernment funding the referral
authorities.
So, like your Melbourne watersor your public transport
authorities or your big roads oryou know like, those kind of
authorities are doing their ownforward planning.
And they might look at an arealike where you were and go, oh,
we need to put a train out there, but we don't have enough
(17:31):
people out there for the demandright now.
We're going to hold off andinstead we'll put the money down
in the southeast because that'swhere the demand is, or
whatever.
So they've got their ownstrategic planning based on you
know where they think the demandis.
And the problem is that a lotof that strategic planning done
by some of the big authoritiesjust hasn't been keeping up with
(17:52):
the amount of forward planningthat we're doing for the future
people of Victoria, and sothat's one of the main reasons
that the state government hassaid we need to stop planning
new areas because we need towait for those authorities to
catch up, and that kind of makessense.
But, as you said, it would belovely if, when we planned a
(18:13):
community, that those facilitieswere provided there and then,
because then it would make it somuch easier for the people in
these Greenfield areas.
I do have one quick answer aboutthat answer my own question.
But developers, when theydevelop a new estate, they have
to pay contributions like moneyto the state government and one
of the really interestingconversations in the media has
(18:34):
been around how much the moneythat the developers have been
providing into theseinfrastructure funds, how much
they've been used by thegovernment to actually provide
what they should have beenproviding at those localities.
Because actually there's adiscussion about whether the
money is instead been repurposedfor things like the level
(18:55):
crossing removal and the trainline around the east, you know,
like things that aren'tnecessarily.
You take the money from thedevelopers doing the Greenfields
, which should be providingmaybe, a train out to those
areas, but instead they use themoney to do level crossing
removal authority work in, youknow, the southeast down near
Stonnington or whatever.
There's just been a bit ofdisparity and I think it's not
(19:18):
an end of the world that thestate government's taking stock
and having a rethink.
But, you know, do they reallyhave the luxury of time?
Because we've got more peopleneeding more homes and it needs
to be affordable and where arethey going to live?
Ludwina Dautovic (19:30):
Great, segue, nicola, you read my mind, so I
wanted to shift the conversationover to affordable housing and
before we actually talk about it, I just realized that I'd love
to know what the governmentdefinition is of affordable
housing.
Nicola Smith (19:48):
Oh, don't.
Even.
So, if you were asking, know mein my office, should we give
you this exact, perfect answer?
And I cannot give it to youbecause I always get caught up.
But there's social housing andaffordable housing and there's
housing affordability.
There's like different slighttweaks on a variation.
So I think the biggest thing iswe need to provide housing for
(20:09):
people that are in need.
So there's an actualterminology that says if your
income is under Blartibla, thenyou need to be getting, there
needs to be some support and weneed to be providing housing for
those people.
So there's that group.
There's also key workers thatyou might have a percentage that
you're required to provide forin developments.
But there's the other space,which is ensuring that housing
(20:33):
more broadly is affordable, andso, almost as planned as we need
to think of all three spaces,because we need to ensure that
we're looking after people thatneed housing and maybe can't
afford it, but we also need tobe making sure that housing for
the general public, that we'rethinking about affordability as
a general concern, I guess.
Ludwina Dautovic (20:52):
How do you do that when the building materials
are so expensive and jobsaren't even getting completed?
Nicola Smith (20:58):
Oh, I totally agree.
So there's this really coolLinkedIn article that I'm trying
to remember what the guy's nameis, perkins Perko, wrote on
LinkedIn recently and somethinglike cost of a single bed
apartment.
I'm going to make this up likefour times the cost of a single
house and I was just like what?
(21:18):
Sorry, like the cost ofapartment living, like, if we're
saying that too bad, so sad.
We need to all live inapartments.
We need to live more centrallybecause the broader cost to the
state is less, because we canuse existing infrastructure, we
can be closer to jobs,congestion prices, blah, blah,
blah.
Ok, that makes sense, but if wedon't end up homes that fit
(21:40):
that bill in the inner city andthey have to be built, but the
cost of construction is so high,then I don't know what the
actual answer is.
Ludwina Dautovic (21:48):
I mean, good point, but what about the
conversion of offices that aresitting empty now?
Nicola Smith (21:54):
Yeah, yeah.
So there's a thing.
I went to a talk last nightabout embodied carbon which I
thought was really cool andwhich is all about when we have
buildings with circular economystuff.
So when we're building abuilding, we should do our best
to think about its long termlife or its life cycle.
So we might be building itright now as an office building,
(22:15):
but has it got the ability tobe converted into a residential
building moving forward?
The reason that you do that isso that, just like you said, if
you've got an office buildingand it's got maybe the bottom
three levels as parking andyou've decided to achieve the
minimum height of a car park,which is lower than a bedroom,
(22:36):
then in the future, if you everwant to convert it into a
residential space, you're nevergoing to be able to because
that's always going to be usedas a car park.
So if we can instead thinkabout it at the start when we're
building a building, thatbuilding can stay in situ and
its use can change.
That's the general premise andthat's good for the broader
environment, which is this wholeembodied carbon thing that I've
(22:58):
been learning about.
So we use carbon to construct abuilding, so you extract the raw
materials out of the ground.
You build the building andtherefore there's a certain
amount of carbon that was usedto build that brick, for example
, or put in that column, andthat can be calculated.
And if you keep that buildingas is and you can adapt it and
turn it into homes, for example,from office say, and all you've
(23:21):
had to do is maybe move someinternal walls or change a bit
of a facade, it's actually got abetter environmental output
result, whatever.
Then it would be knocking itover and building a brand new
suite of apartments.
So yeah, there's environmentalbenefits as well in doing that
adaptability.
It's just whether the buildingsright now can be adapted, and
I'm not sure all of them can be.
Ludwina Dautovic (23:42):
Well, I'd imagine that an office space is
obviously going to havebathrooms and kitchens in there.
So wouldn't it be just a matterof you know, like changing
internal walls?
I remember speaking to adeveloper designer a couple of
years back.
It's more of a futurist interms of housing design and
looking at.
You know, if we were to stay inthe one place with the duration
of our life, for example, howcould you build so that you can
(24:02):
just internally easily changethe structure of the room?
So he was talking about wallsthat can be moved.
Or, you know, sections of thehouse that can be divided off.
If you needed a granny flatsort of area down the road, you
know, once your kids grow andleft home, etc.
All these different things thatyou can do internally, I don't
think there'd be that much thatyou would.
Nicola Smith (24:21):
No, I mean like I'm not a builder.
So once you get a planningpermit and then you go to the
building department for abuilding permit, there are
different classifications underthe building code of Australia.
So I imagine from memory fromworking in a council many years
ago, there's particularrequirements if it's an office
building and there's differentrequirements if it's somewhere
that you're going to reside, soit's probably around openable
(24:42):
windows or safety, things likethat.
Ludwina Dautovic (24:44):
Oh, absolutely would be.
Yeah, yeah, I don't imaginethat.
Nicola Smith (24:48):
But you could probably convert that, like you
could probably switch window outor you could probably cause.
I don't know if it's going to bethat hard, but I love that idea
.
There was this really cooldeveloper when I first moved to
Melbourne.
I remember when I met himsomewhere in Essendon, from
memory, and he had got thisapproval for three story
townhouses and they were sort ofbanked up a hill, so maybe say,
(25:10):
maybe, say three rows of them,and then looked out on a water
body and he got it approved as,yeah, these three story
townhouses, but he only builtthem as two story, but he put in
the opportunity for those twostories to be converted into
three stories.
And I always thought that wasso cool because it meant when
the people moved into the areaor they bought that townhouse,
(25:32):
they knew that all those othertownhouses in front of them and
behind them had been approved,perhaps these stories, and they
were just building it at the,buying it at the cost of two
stories, but they had theability to go up and know that
there wasn't going to be likeobjections and blah, blah, blah
and it was all approved plans.
I thought that was cool back inthe day.
I still think that's gotrelevance really.
Ludwina Dautovic (25:55):
So I have one final question before we wrap up
In terms of housingaccessibility and affordability
in areas that get developedwhether it's greenfields,
infields, brownfields is there arequirement to have a certain
level of how ever it is that youidentify affordable housing
within those developments?
(26:15):
Because if you're just buildinghouses or apartments or
whatever, they have a certaincost value to them, and then you
don't have any way for somebodythat's got a lesser budget.
So think back in the day I talkabout this a lot Remember the
block of flats that are now, bythe way, getting renovated and
sold for millions.
But you know, I remember theone two-bedroom walk-ups, the
(26:35):
flats, and I know people say ohyeah, but their apartments say
they're not really.
Apartments are actually quitedifferent to these block of
flats, right?
Totally and you could guaranteethere'd be somewhere in the
suburb A block of flats.
If not, you know two, three,four of them.
They just don't seem to beconsidered these days in any
developments that get built.
So where are people on a lowerbudget, or my kids, for example,
(26:59):
with 30 and 28?
Thankfully they've looked home,but the rents are ridiculous.
Yeah, totally, you know.
If they want to live in theinner city, what are they
supposed to do?
Nicola Smith (27:07):
Yeah, I completely agree.
So I think there is justtalking about this.
With a friend of mine there wasactually looking in Adelaide at
different properties and wewere talking about really
expensive areas, you know, andwhether you could put apartments
in there and would people moveinto the apartments?
And I think there's somethingto be said about people wanting
to live in place.
You know there's a talk aboutaging in place, which means when
(27:30):
you the duana, when you get tobe an old, old lady and you live
in your big McMansion and youdon't want to move out of your
McMansion right, because youlike living in that area,
because you know we friendsaround, hands around, exactly,
and so you know there's a bigpush right now for aging in
place, which is ensuring thatwe've got Smaller housing
options in areas where peoplehave been living in these big
(27:52):
McMansions and then potentially,if they're not character based,
moving those houses into, youknow, developing flats or
apartments or townhouses oroptions.
It's happened a lot in PortMelbourne's.
A lot of young people now livein Port Melbourne because you
know They've kept the characterareas but they've also
redeveloped other areas as well.
But yeah, that question aboutthe affordability stuff, it
(28:14):
could be an angle that the stategovernment could push a little
bit.
Now that I sort of think aboutit, because we talked about in
about five years ago and therewas a lot of discussion about
build to rent.
So that's when like one personowns the whole building.
So like a developer mightdevelop a whole apartment and
essentially rent out all thosedifferent Apartments in that
apartment building.
The idea was that was supposedto be more affordable.
(28:37):
Like I think they've got goodfinance outcomes from the
government for, you know,lending in those areas, but it's
just not really worked.
Some local councils haverequirements for five percent or
one percent provision ofAffordable housing.
When you're doing GreenfieldEstates and if you do it you
know there's maybe a fast-trackprocess or maybe you can provide
(28:58):
greater density.
Or you know like there's a bitof a trade-off, like if you give
us affordable housing, we willenable you to put more houses
into that area or whatever.
So they have all been triallingdifferent ways to do it.
I remember like if you had itat a state government level in
Planning policy and it requiredit, then I think there would be
more teeth and more ways for thegovernment to enforce it.
(29:20):
But right now it's just a highlevel good to do kind of
position, rather thannecessarily something that's
being enforced.
Ludwina Dautovic (29:28):
I think it's something that needs
requirements around it, becauseotherwise it's cool.
It's just a mess, like thewhole housing Situation in
Australia is a mess.
Nicola Smith (29:38):
Well, I mean, I look at one of the girls in my
office who lives in an apartmentin the inner city and you know
she that's a big, massive sortof skyscraper number and she's
came to move into anotherapartment, doesn't want to live
out in the greenfields, reallyhappy with apartment living, but
even for her to rent, like Iremember, and she's like sending
a good pay, she's, you know,had a professional job for five
(30:01):
years, you know like tick, tick,tick, been in a relationship,
all that stuff, and she couldnot get a rental.
And that just blows my mind.
So I think, you know, I guessthis is where the state
government's coming from they'retrying to ensure that there are
more Opportunities forapartments in the inner city.
I don't think that's a badthing, but I think they need to
think more broadly becauseotherwise people are just gonna
(30:24):
say I don't want that.
You know that whole NIMBY notin my backyard.
So, okay, cool, put apartmentsinto enable people to have
cheaper housing, but pleasedon't put it here in my street
in South Melbourne, you know,whatever.
So I think they're gonna have tothink about Strategic areas to
put in.
Is it around the new trainstations or the new train lines
that they've underground.
Probably you know where arethese key areas that people
(30:46):
would go.
Okay, we understand that that'sa good spot, for it enables
people access to transport,doesn't increase the amount of
parking, enables, you know youto get to your employment easier
, all that sort of stuff.
So I think they're on the righttrack.
They just haven't quite landedit and I don't think they've got
the benefit of time.
I think they need to really gettheir skates on.
Yeah and yeah, you know,greenfield is not a bad word.
(31:08):
Greenfield's housing is lovelyas well, so we just need to make
sure we're providing thefacilities out there too.
Ludwina Dautovic (31:14):
Yeah, absolutely, and, for anyone
who's listening, if you arelooking for affordable and
accessible housing, the roomexchange has a number of
homeowners on our platform inspare rooms that are looking for
people to rent them, so that isone alternative.
Now, nicola, before we go, whydon't you tell the listers how
they can find out more about you?
Nicola Smith (31:32):
So sweet.
Well, we are on all the socials, so it's niche planning studio
is the website, sowwwnicheplanningstudiocomau.
We're really active on Instaand really active on LinkedIn.
So, yeah, just look us up andyou can follow me and my team of
.
Well, I know, I reckon they'reprobably average age of about 27
or give or take.
So it's young word, fresh ideas, pretty innovative and great to
(31:55):
work with.
Ludwina Dautovic (31:56):
so reach out Any planning, and we'll have all
those links on our show notespage as well.
So, nicola, I'm so glad that webumped into each other down in
Polo Bay and I'm looking forwardto catching up with dinner soon
.
Nicola Smith (32:08):
Yeah, I'm not sitting in a car like, I'm
literally sitting in a fun melty.
Ludwina Dautovic (32:14):
Well, look, hey, if anyone's listening, you
got to do a podcast interview.
The car actually provides somereally good sound quality, so
how funny will you adapt?
Thank you so much, nicola.
Thanks for listening.
Bye for now.
Bye, thanks for listening.
If you're looking for your nextrental, head over to the room
exchange, australia's firstverified house sharing platform.
Our profiles make it easy tomatch you based on personality,
(32:37):
values and lifestyle, and youcan choose to rent or offset
your rent, saving you time andmoney.
To find out more, go to theroom exchange Com.
You can connect with us acrossour social media platforms at
the room exchange or email Adminat the room exchange comm.
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