July 12, 2023 • 43 mins
Ready for an episode that promises to transform your perspective? We've got a special one for you today, bridging military precision with cutting-edge technology. As your hosts, we are ecstatic to bring forth the voices of veterans Philip Anderson and Golden Hoodie, David Scott Nava, who successfully transitioned from their military careers into the Salesforce ecosystem. The episode covers their unique experiences, the skills they carried from the military to their new careers, and their invaluable tips on how to navigate this transition.
The heart of this episode lies in the stories our guests share. From Philip's journey fast roping from helicopters to a Deloitte consultant, to David's commitment in helping others make the same transition, we traverse a variety of experiences. They reveal the unique skills veterans can bring to the job market - problem-solving, quick learning, conflict management - and how to articulate these strengths in a way that resonates with civilian employers.
But it's not just about transitioning - it's about thriving. Philip and David emphasize the importance of networking and relationship-building, ideally two years before transitioning. They provide insights into how to stand out in a challenging economic environment and share resources such as the 'Hiring Our Heroes' program. This episode is not just a guide to transition from a military to a civilian career, it's a roadmap to success. So gear up for a conversation that combines resilience, adaptability, and tech-savviness, all in one.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:02):
And now the number one audio program that helps you
to hire, get hired and soarhigher in the Salesforce
ecosystem.
It's the Salesforce career showwith Josh Matthews and Vanessa
Grant.
Josh Matthews (00:21):
Welcome everybody Very excited about our
special military focusedepisode today.
Not only am I here, not a vet,and Vanessa also not a vet, but
we've got some amazing veteransup on stage.
They are very special guests.
We have Mr Philip Anderson andPhilip, why don't you go ahead
(00:42):
and just give us a quickintroduction of yourself?
Josh Mathews (00:45):
Hey, Phillip Anderson, here coming live from
Green Bay, Wisconsin.
I was on vacation Airforceveteran Deloitte consultant
within the government or GPS andspecializing in Salesforce.
Josh Matthews (01:02):
All right, thanks Phil, and we also have
David Scott Naba.
Yeah, thanks, josh.
Dave Nader (01:08):
Dave Nader , lead solution engineer at Salesforce,
also in global public sector orGPS, helping our DOD customers
discover the wonders ofSalesforce.
Super excited to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Josh Matthews (01:19):
Of course, david , you did forget to share that.
You're a golden hoodie.
I think most people who knowyou already know that, but
that's an extremely special andrare honor and we're honored to
have both of you guys on theshow today.
But we've got some otherveterans on the show too, like
Larry Lee.
Great to see you, larry.
We had a chance to meet atDreamforce.
(01:39):
We've got Jason up here.
Jason Zykerowitz is a regularon our program, as is Peter
Gonza, so welcome to you guys aswell and everybody else who's
listening here on the live show.
And if you're listening on thepodcast, we appreciate you
joining us today.
If you haven't subscribed tothe podcast, please be sure to
(01:59):
do so, and if you're listeningto this, you can probably figure
out how to do that.
So what we want to do today isreally understand from both
David and Phil really how didthey make their own personal
transitions into the ecosystem,from a career military
professional, into technologyand specifically into the
Salesforce ecosystem?
(02:20):
We're going to get down dirtywith them on this topic and then
also understand some of theirspecific advice, recommendations
and resources that they'llshare with us about how you, if
you are in the military, ifyou're active duty, or if you're
retired from active duty butstruggling to make a transition
(02:41):
and interested in potentiallyspeaking too.
So let's go ahead and startwith Dave.
Tell us a little bit about yourjourney.
Dave Nader (02:51):
Yeah, happy to do it Again.
Thanks for having me.
So I served for 20 years in themilitary and my whole family
was military, fromgreat-grandfather on down
relative, sister.
So that's really all I knew.
And I was planning mytransition about five years out
because I'm a planner and I wastrying to figure out what I
wanted to do.
(03:12):
Initially I thought, like a lotof military folks think, I'd get
into project management becausethat's similar to what we do on
the day-to-day.
And the more I dug into it, themore I realized it just wasn't a
good fit.
But I didn't know what was agood fit and so I spent some
time doing a deep dive in myself, read a few books and luckily
(03:33):
found Salesforce and I found itthrough LinkedIn, through a
mentor of mine who suggested itdiscovered Trailhead, trailhead
Military and immediately fell inlove and was sold.
It appealed to the projectmanagement side of my brain, but
it also appealed to the sidesof my brain I didn't know I had
the creative side, theproblem-solving side.
(03:54):
So I spent the next year or soAt that point it was about a
year until I retired Upskillingon the platform, volunteering
with nonprofits, participatingin an internship and ultimately
got hired the day I retired to aplatinum consulting firm in the
partner ecosystem as a juniorsolution architect building
(04:15):
Salesforce implementations forcustomers.
So that's in a nutshell, that'skind of my transition journey
and happy, over the course oftonight's episode, to kind of
break it down, answer somequestions and dig a bit deeper.
Josh Matthews (04:27):
Thanks for sharing that, dave.
Really appreciate it, and maybeyou can share a little bit too
about how you're contributingcurrently to active and retired
veterans.
Dave Nader (04:41):
Yeah, so I do a bunch of outreach.
I have a soft spot in my heartfor anyone that's trying to
enter the ecosystem, because Iknow that I struggled with it.
This was in 2018, it was a timebefore Trailhead Military
existed.
It was still in that force.
There were resources, but theyweren't as varied and as robust
(05:02):
as they are today, and a lot offolks that aren't military that
are just transitioning into theydon't have the same level of
resources, and so I wanted tohelp folks enter the ecosystem
and discover the passions that Ihave with solving customer
problems and building things,and so initially I was just kind
(05:23):
of ad hoc mentoring for a while, for a couple of years through
LinkedIn and then eventuallythrough Venerati, which is an
online mentoring platform.
It's free to sign up and then Idecided I wanted to kind of
scale it and reach more people.
And the number one problem thatyou know in talking to folks
about transitions whether you'remilitary or not military,
(05:44):
anyone enters the ecosystem.
I think one of the first thingsthey think is holy cow.
There's so many differentpositions, so many different
roles.
A lot of them sound the same.
I don't even know what to pick.
I need some kind of resource tofigure it out, and so I kind of
made it my mission to providethose resources.
And so I talked to Bill KeelerBill's one of the co-founders of
(06:07):
Resource here, which is anAppExchange partner, brilliant
guy and he was doing officehours every Friday and he still
does.
Friday is at noon, not Easternand he said you know.
I reached out and I said hey,listen, bill, you do technical
sessions.
I am technical, but not nearlyas technical as you are.
He's a developer.
I'd love to do a Wednesdaysession if I could just borrow
(06:28):
your brand a bit and talk aboutprofessional development.
So he said yes, he helped meget set up.
He's been a staunch supporterever since, and every week we
began diving into a differentcareer path.
So tonight we had Salesforcebent on and we were.
We diverged a bit from careerpath exploration.
We were talking about layoffsand market downturns and how to
survive those, and that was our99th episode.
(06:51):
And we have over 180 videos onYouTube devoted to exploring
different Salesforce careerpaths as well as skill sets
required to end the ecosystem,how to get in From all different
perspectives.
I invite different co-hostsevery week.
Sometimes it's multipleco-hosts, and so we've had over
180 different co-hosts sharetheir experiences across 4,000
(07:11):
different participants overthose 99 sessions.
So it's been really, reallygreat to get back to the
community and we're still goingstrong.
Josh Matthews (07:19):
Well that you are my friend, and today was
actually the first time I had achance to show up to the office
hours and I thought it wasfantastic.
It was a great platform.
I love that it's on video.
You know this is this is alsonice, doing a podcast, because I
didn't have to comb my hair orput on a clean shirt Don't worry
(07:39):
, my shirt's actually clean butI love the format, and that
you're able to reach out just onyour own and help support so
many careers, and especiallythose trying to enter into the
ecosystem, is truly remarkable.
We're going to get back to youhere in just a moment, dave.
I'm curious about Phil'stransition also.
(08:00):
Now, phil, if I understandcorrectly, you've been in the
ecosystem a little bit less thantwo years.
Is that accurate?
Yes, okay, and this is what Ilove about having the both of
you on is we have someone who'sbeen in it just a little bit
longer and and and then someonewho's a little bit newer and
(08:20):
that recent experience oftransitioning from military into
the ecosystem is is what we'regoing to lean on you for today,
phillip.
So talk to us about what didyou do before, what were you
doing in the Air Force, and then, how did this transition into
Salesforce occur for you?
Josh Mathews (08:38):
So, yeah, so you know, thanks for having me.
And so I kind of am the exactopposite of David.
I didn't have anyone in myfamily that was in the military
besides, like a cousin who wasin Army reserves.
After I graduated college, Ididn't know what I was going to
do.
I had bills to pay and I had nodirection.
So I asked my sister to pick upa recruiters card from the Navy
(09:06):
, because you know, everyonewants to be a Navy SEAL and
watching videos and realize I'mnot a good swimmer.
So then I went to the Air Force, because none of the jobs
really require that muchswimming, or so I thought.
Talk to.
The recruiter knew I wanted todo something more you know
running and gunning and shooting.
So joined the Air Force, spent13 years in special warfare and
(09:31):
special operations where I was aJTAC and my job was to you know
, in civilian terms was I was aconsultant in chaos.
I was the guy on the groundwith the commander telling them
the best way to utilize air toground munitions.
So I did that, like I said, forabout 13 years and then was
told about 11 and a half yearsthat I can't do it anymore
(09:55):
because I was pretty broke fromjumping out of planes and faster
up and out of helicopters, sodidn't have any.
You know, once again, what am Igoing to do.
I've been shooting my wholecareer field or my whole career.
So went and talked to atransition mentor and the whole
(10:16):
time she was talking aboutSalesforce and she was saying,
how you know, hey, the, you knowSalesforce.
We're seeing a lot of veteransgo from the military to
Salesforce.
And for 45 minutes she wassaying Salesforce and the whole
time I thought she was talkingabout Space Force.
So that's actually how I foundout about Salesforce was by a by
(10:38):
accident.
Josh Matthews (10:39):
Just a little less risky, just a little.
Josh Mathews (10:42):
Yeah, just yeah.
So it's, you know, it ended upworking out, so got into, you
know, found Salesforce, and thenI found out about, actually,
david's podcast and I went anddid an office hours, spoke to a
couple of the participants therethat actually were Merivis
(11:04):
graduates.
So I joined Merivis and they,you know, helped me become a
Salesforce admin and from thereit was really just networking,
networking, networking, findingout which companies, which firms
I wanted to work for, what Iwanted to do.
And yeah, that's basically mystory and it's a good one man.
Josh Matthews (11:29):
I'm kind of curious this is just a quick,
fun question for both you guyswhat would be the equivalent of
fast roping out of a helicopterin the Salesforce ecosystem?
In other words, what's sort ofa slightly dangerous thing that
you might have to do thatdoesn't last very long but is
critical to being successful inthe ecosystem?
(11:51):
I know it's a weird question,but let's see if you can answer
it.
I might have to think yeah, noone wants to go first.
Josh Mathews (11:58):
That's okay.
Yeah, I mean.
Yeah, there's really nothinglike it.
Yeah, there's nothing like it.
I mean, you're fast roping from30 feet and you're probably on
a rope for five seconds maybe.
Yeah, I don't have really havean answer to that.
Josh Matthews (12:18):
Okay, honestly, it was a stupid question.
Now, one thing I want to askabout there was a study done by
Syracuse University's Institutefor Veterans and Military
Families that found thatveterans are 70% more likely to
be employed in the fields oftechnology, engineering and math
(12:41):
or STEM positions in general,compared to non-veterans.
I'm kind of curious what do youguys think about when you think
about that little fact or thatlittle result from that study
and you think about the folksthat you were working between
elbow to elbow with in the fieldbefore your Salesforce days.
(13:02):
Does this make sense?
I mean, does it ring true inany way, shape or form?
Does it seem obvious, in thesame way, that a lot of
musicians who can read you know,read sheet music get into
coding and development?
I'm kind of curious.
If that's something that you'verecognized, go ahead, david.
Dave Nader (13:24):
Yeah, I think a direct answer is no, no caveat.
So coming out of the militaryand considering a career in tech
, this is not something I everconsidered entering.
I did not consider myself techsavvy.
I could use a computer, basicMicrosoft competencies, and that
(13:48):
was really about it.
I had technical experience butit was all military related and
didn't really transition at allto anything currently in the
tech world, unless I wanted tofly or work with DoD gear.
But from the inside now,looking back out, I'd say
(14:08):
absolutely, because what youhave to realize is tech is all
about problem solving.
If you like to solve problems,if you're methodical, if you
like to apply a structuredapproach to complex solutioning
which most folks in the military, whether they realize it or not
, probably do then yeah, itmakes perfect sense.
(14:30):
And once I was able to reframeit in that context, I realized
that it was a fantastic fit forme but it took some doing so.
I would offer that you don'talways know where you're going
to end up.
You don't always know what's agood fit until you explore it,
and so what I tell folksfrequently is if you don't know
what you want to do, that's fine, it's totally normal.
(14:52):
Most people don't.
You got to test drive your life.
You got to test drive differentcareer paths, and how do you do
that?
Well, you talk to people firstand foremost.
You have informationalinterviews.
You talk to people in differentroles, whether it's Salesforce
or something else, and youfigure out what it's like
through their eyes.
And if you're interested, thenmaybe you dabble a bit in
Salesforce world.
It's Trailhead.
It's creating your own Dev workand spinning it up and building
(15:14):
apps.
It's creating experience cloudsite and creating your own
digital portfolio and othervarious things.
So I would just encouragepeople to be curious and don't
don't think you know what youwant, because you may not.
You got to have an open mind.
Beginner's mindset is somethingwe use often.
(15:34):
I firmly believe in that andjust explored space.
Josh Matthews (15:40):
Very good thoughts on the subject.
David, thank you for sharingthat, and I'd like to ask you
guys about some commonmisconceptions that civilian
Organizations and companies mayhave about hiring veterans.
Now I've been in, you know,recruiting and staffing for I
Think it's 24 years now.
(16:00):
It's been a long time and haveplaced a number of veterans.
But I've, more importantly,have spoken to a lot of hiring
managers and I've heard themobject to hiring Not recently
and not lately, and certainly,you know, would never Be a
laydown for this kind ofpushback but have heard them say
(16:22):
, well, yeah, but we need peopleto think, you know, we need
people who aren't just ordertakers.
And I think that there might besome real common misconceptions
about Veterans joining thecivilian workforce.
I think that's one of them.
I'm kind of curious if you'verecognized similar
misconceptions, either you know,impacting your own career and
(16:45):
career advancement, or some ofthe folks that you work
alongside, or or just you knowBrothers and arms from the past,
if that misconception is onethat's common and if there are
other misconceptions that weshould take a moment to blow
right out of the water right now, once and for all.
Josh Mathews (17:05):
Yeah, I can kind of take this one.
I would say that maybe five toten years ago there might have
been a applause to hire veterans, because you're worried that
it's gonna be, you know, earlyemory.
From what's that?
What's the movie?
(17:25):
The Stanley Kubrick metaljacket, full metal jacket?
Yeah, you're thinking they'regonna be just these, these,
these guys that are going crazy,and these girls.
Josh Matthews (17:33):
This is my right .
Josh Mathews (17:35):
Well, that's yeah, yeah, exactly, you know we are
order takers, we, we we'redriven, we, you know, and I
would say for companies thatthat that are looking to hire
veterans.
You know I always say thatveterans and veteran spouses are
we're kind of like a, anUntapped rich oil field of
(17:56):
experience.
We have a lot of leadershipexperience, no matter what
branch you're in.
We are order takers and we ownwhat.
We own what were, what weregiven.
We're own, we own that job andyou know we don't like to fail,
we love to, we love to have asuccessful mission and and it's
(18:19):
it's that drive that I thinkthat is really important and and
you see, with it's reallyimportant to to Let veterans
know that their experiences Inthe military are important to
those companies.
And yeah, but I would say, likethe biggest problem I've noticed
(18:41):
for me with being a, you know,in the military is I have a as a
consultant Now and you knowcivilian world is I don't ask
why.
A lot, you know, you tell me todo something and I do it and I
don't have that, that thatexperience yet to ask, well, why
(19:02):
am I doing this?
And and I think, as aconsultant, that is important to
do so yeah, I mean, that's kindof how I would answer it is you
know, that's it.
Josh Matthews (19:16):
That makes a ton of sense.
I mean, vanessa talks aboutthis a lot, right?
Just she's in the world ofSolutioning, but you know she's
the queen of BA and and you pipeup any time, vanessa.
But that asking, like why Imean, we've got episodes and
episodes dedicated toSpecifically that like well, but
why do you want to do it thatway?
Why does this even make sense?
(19:37):
And like how do we even knowthat this makes sense?
So that's a critical point.
And just so you know you do nothave to raise your hand, dave,
he just jumped right in.
Dave Nader (19:49):
Yeah, I would.
I would piggyback on that tosay I think Phil, spot on.
It's not as prevalent today asit once was.
But then again, I'm not lookingat companies that don't have
Vibrant military communities.
I won't even consider them.
So all the companies that Ireached out to, I knew for a
fact before I even got startedthey were gonna be supportive
(20:09):
based upon their presence insocial media, their website,
folks that I've talked to thatwork there.
So I had already removed allthose companies that maybe have
doubts about the militarycommunity from my from my scan.
I Will say that these daysthere's probably a greater
reluctance then from theveterans.
(20:30):
Hiring is military spousehiring simply because Some mill
spouses don't want toself-identify, which is fine.
But regardless, when you lookat a mill spouse.
Josh Matthews (20:43):
What do you mean by that?
You mean they don't want to saythat they're a military spouse.
Dave Nader (20:48):
Yes, there's two trains of thought with that One,
if you identify as a millspouse, some folks feel that
you'll automatically be excludedand some folks feel that well,
I should, because I'm proud ofit and it's not something that I
I feel like.
They feel like it bringsstrength and unique perspective
to the application process and Iwould agree wholeheartedly,
(21:14):
really, with both.
Right, folks do discriminatebased upon mill spouse
candidates and it doescommunicate a wealth of
experience.
The issue is that someemployers will look at a mill
spouse's resume, linked inprofile, and they'll see they've
worked in a variety ofdifferent employers.
Sometimes it's frequently, asevery other year, and without
(21:37):
digging deeper, without trulyseeking to understand, they just
see someone that can't holddown a job or someone that maybe
is flighty and can't make uptheir mind.
Which could be further from thetruth.
Mill spouses have to move quitea bit and sometimes they're
taking care of families andextended families and maybe they
also have gaps in employment.
But what you have to take intoconsideration is they've done a
(22:00):
wide variety of different jobs.
They are masters of flexibility, of change management, of
problem solving, of firefighting, you name it.
They bring a wide variety ofskills to the mix across a
number of different meta areas,and those are the folks you want
to hire.
They're the people that getstuff done.
(22:20):
Yeah, military service membersand veterans yes, I mean, we get
stuff done.
But who's holding down the fortwhen we're off doing the
military thing and handling allthe issues that come up?
It's Mill Spouses.
So I would like to seeemployers be more open to
(22:40):
viewing their resumes, theirLinkedIn profiles, their
credentials with an open mind.
Instead of seeing someone thathas changed jobs a lot, see
someone that brings a welcomeexperience.
Guest (22:54):
So today, david, I know you touched on some of those
transferable skills, but whenyou're mentoring folks that are
transitioning from the military,what are the most prevalent
transferable skills that peopledevelop that they should be
bringing up during theirinterviews, when they're talking
to people?
Dave Nader (23:12):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Skills translation is reallytough.
Take, for example, me.
I was an able flight officerfor EA 6Bs, so my job, day in,
day out, was jamming enemy radarand communications and there's
just no one in the civilianworld that wants you to do that.
It's illegal.
So I had to take those skillsand convert them into skills
(23:33):
that employers found valuable.
And when you don't have a techbackground, when you don't have
tech skills like I didn't, youdon't have a tech network, you
kind of have to extrapolate andmove from a tactical kind of
looking at your immediate skillsto more of the strategic.
And that's where I get intometa skills, those skills that
(23:53):
help you develop other skills,those skills that help you do a
wide variety of things.
So, to directly answer yourquestion, that's things like
problem solving.
We're really good at problemsolving because every two, three
years we move to a differentduty station and we don't get on
the job training.
We just have to figure it outand do it, and then you move
again, you figure it out and youdo it again, and so that breeds
(24:15):
the ability to approachsituation, assess it, size it up
, figure out what the issue is,root cause analysis, solve the
problem, triage and manage it.
So that's one thing.
The ability to learn, which alot of people take for granted,
but it's a skill.
How do you rapidly take ininformation and make use of it
(24:38):
is absolutely a skill.
And so we have to not justmilitary service members but
spouses as well have to rapidlylearn new things very quickly
and put them into play.
So that's another skill that webring.
You know, conflict management,going off to war or fighting
fires at home, necessarily isvery stressful, very difficult,
(24:58):
and you have to be able to do itwith a cool head.
So there's that, and I can keepgoing on and on and on.
But there are thesefoundational skills that a lot
of people have but no one reallyhas to the same degree, the
same quantity that the militarycommunity does, that we bring to
the job space, and that youcan't, you just simply can't
(25:18):
train them.
It would take years and years,and years.
You can't train someone to be aproblem solver, train someone
to recognize and put out fires.
So you know, you hire for thatand you train the technical
skills later.
Josh Matthews (25:33):
Exactly.
You know, I love that we'retalking about this right now,
and those are terrific points,david.
I like to think of them less asskills and more as behaviors.
Right, you have a behavior oflike I'm going to get this done.
I'm going to get this done, nomatter what.
I understand that there's going, there are going to be
(25:54):
obstacles in the way.
That's why I've got the job isto figure out how to overcome
these obstacles and to not stopuntil I've overcome it.
Right, but that's a.
That's a, that's an attitude.
It's a behavior that thatequates specifically to results,
regardless of the obstacle infront.
Right.
(26:15):
And so, for those listening,whether it's live or on the
podcast, when you areconsidering making a transition
or trying to figure out, like,how do I?
I mean, how do I transition, orhow do I specifically describe?
You know, like Phil, forexample, like you know, I'm on
(26:37):
the ground, targetingspecifically where, where the
Air Force needs to dropordinance, right, like.
But what were the behaviors,attitudes that I had to use, an
approach, what was the tempo ofmy thinking?
What was I competent, what weremy competencies under extreme
stress?
Right, and being able toarticulate those behaviors,
(26:59):
articulate those attitudes, Ithink is a really great way to
at least begin figuring outthose skill sets.
You know that those key words,buzzwords that people are
looking for, ai scanning on yourresume that you can really
articulate when you're sittingdown face to face, either in
person or maybe on a Google Meetor a Zoom meeting for your
(27:23):
first interview.
And when you, when you'vedeveloped the ability to
articulate those behaviors orthose meta skills, you're going
to be a lot more confident goinginto this, into the session,
into the meeting, and trulystand out.
So really great points, let'slet's ask Phil for a second how
did you translate what you didto getting to the point where
(27:47):
you were able to obtain a wholenew career as a consultant?
So what I would do is I would.
Josh Mathews (27:56):
I looked at like my EPRs and I really kind of got
down to what exactly I wasdoing, like, case in point,
being a JTAC, you know, callingin airstrikes, doing all that
stuff Like what was I actuallydoing to?
To do that I was doing, talkingto the ground commander,
(28:19):
talking to the on scenecommander and saying, hey, sir,
you know, ma'am, this is what isgoing on, this is what I
recommend, that is, consultingYou're, you're finding a
solution to a problem, you'regiving the client a what your
recommendation is and they caneither buy it or they can you
(28:40):
know, hey, I don't, you knowdisagree with it.
So that was how I kind offigured out being a JTAC was
being a consultant.
You know, I was also abattalion air liaison officer.
Like I was, I was in charge offive or six individuals and so I
had to think about it Okay, soI'm a.
(29:01):
You know we called ourselvesBaylows.
So I'm a Baylow, I'm a.
You know, I'm in charge ofthese people.
What am I doing?
I'm managing these people.
So I was a manager.
And then, once you kind offigure out that, like Rosetta
Stone of military to civiliancomparison, it became really
(29:23):
easy.
That being said, it wasn't easyfiguring it out.
It was always that challenge.
So that was you know what Iwould, what I did, and I would
also reach out to veterans thatwere working at firms and
companies and ask them for theirresumes and hey, can I see your
(29:45):
resumes, can I see what verbageyou use?
And figure out what they did.
And that helped me a lot, justgetting out there and talking to
veterans, because you knowwe're 1% of the of the
population and we're all, we'recommunity and we're always going
to want to help each other out.
Like you know David, you knowhe's probably helped out
(30:07):
thousands upon thousands ofveterans and and spouses, and
you know that's that's.
One thing is you're not, you'renot going to go through this
journey alone.
You need to, but you have to bewilling to ask for that help.
So that's kind of how I did it.
(30:28):
I figured out what I did and,if I didn't have a good answer,
just reached out to people forhelp.
Josh Matthews (30:36):
Well, that's a smart move, man, right?
Because it's not the how, it'sthe who.
Half the time, right?
And and I think a lot of timespeople are like how do I do this
, how do I do this, how do I dothis?
And really it's like who knowsthis?
That's the shortcut.
Who knows this shit already?
Let me go talk to them andfigure out what they've done.
And you guys know this stuff,which is why you're on the show,
(30:57):
so I'm glad that you're able tobe here and share this right
now.
Yeah, I'm kind of curious.
Guest (31:03):
I was actually just going to throw in just to add on to
the the point about reaching outto people.
So from my experience I know atmy company we are part of the
hiring our heroes program andseveral times at this point as
so I'm sure David and Phil canprobably explain the hiring our
(31:27):
heroes program better than Icould I can certainly talk
through my experience of workingwith folks once they've already
joined.
But part of what it is is thatthere's a few different programs
that are offered.
They get to work over thecourse, I think, of 10 to 12
weeks at a company and then atthe end the company decides that
(31:48):
they're gonna move forward andhire that person.
But what I thought was greatwas when folks reached out to me
, like they just found me onLinkedIn, noticed I had worked
at one of the organizations thatwas part of the program and
asked me about my experience atthe company, just so that they
could get an idea of what thesalaries were like, what the
promotion path was like, whatthe program was like if they
(32:10):
chose my company to join.
But for sure, reaching out topeople just want to echo how
important that is.
Josh Matthews (32:18):
Yeah, it's the difference between job and no
job.
Often times, right I can't tellyou how many times people reach
out to me every single day Iprobably get around like 20, 30,
40 invites a day on LinkedIn,and not all of them, but enough
of them.
Maybe 25 to 30, 40 percent havea question, right, like how do
(32:42):
I do this or how do I get intothat, or how do I do this and
that?
The other thing, which, ofcourse, the whole reason why we
started this show a few yearsago was to give people that
platform.
Now you've got a platform,david, for military folks.
But I'm curious, do you have arecommendation for the people
listening here right now who maybe active duty?
(33:04):
Or maybe they just, you know,they just got off base and
they're exploring a new careerin the civilian world, whether
it's Salesforce or another techcompany or just neither but a
professional career in thecivilian world.
You know there's there's achallenge, I think, for veterans
coming out of that very I don'teven want to say insular
(33:26):
because it's so big, but makingthat transition from military to
civilian, which is the networkright, when you go from your
network or the majority of yournetwork or other military
professionals versus civilianprofessionals?
Would you, for instance,recommend that even if someone's
active duty and they're goingto be, they've got a couple more
(33:49):
years to go before theytransition?
For instance, would yourecommend that they get a
LinkedIn profile now and startexploring as early as a couple
years before a transitionhappens and start just kind of
getting used to the technicalspeak and the way civilian
communication in business isdifferent because it is than in
(34:12):
the military?
Or do you have some otheradvice of what can people be
doing now before they even exit?
Dave Nader (34:19):
Yeah.
So short answer 100%,absolutely.
The one thing you can't do isrush relationships.
You can't build relationshipsin a vacuum.
You can't build them veryrapidly and, you know, create
them in an emergency.
You have to have them alreadybuilt in order to access them
and derive value from them.
So I always tell people starttwo years out, even if you don't
(34:39):
know what you want to do.
It takes a long, in some casesa long time to figure that out.
Start two years out.
Create a LinkedIn profile.
You know dress for the rolethat you want.
So you probably shouldn't haveyour military photo in there if
you're going to be transitioningand getting out.
If you're farther out than that, sure have your military photo
in there, but change it later onand start putting your
(35:00):
experience in there, translatingit as best you can, because
it's a skill that it takes timeand practice to master,
translating those skills andbeginning connecting with people
.
But have a purpose right.
Have an idea of where you want,you know.
Have an idea of the end, of theend of mind and where you want
to go.
So don't just like what I did,as I was.
So I'm like, okay, I have tohave a LinkedIn profile, so I
(35:21):
created one.
A couple years out, I beganconnecting with everybody across
all industries.
Essentially, that becomesuseless, right, because your
feed is going to be filled withnoise.
You need to figure out at leastan industry.
If not, if not an industry,then go even narrower and figure
out exactly where in thatindustry maybe even a company
that you want to work at, orseveral companies and begin
(35:43):
connecting with everyone in thatindustry, at those specific
targeted companies immediatelyand start creating content,
start interacting with theircontent, ask for informational
interviews, build thoserelationships, put the time and
effort into it and it'll do acouple of things.
And you're going to gradually,after having conversations
within your desired industry,learn the industry language and
(36:05):
be able to translate your skillsmuch more easily, because it is
a different language than oneyou're not well equipped to
speak if you've been talkingmilitary speak your whole life.
And two, you're going to havethose relationships that you
could then leverage when it'stime to actually transition and
you're looking for work.
So I would absolutely startearly, start a couple of years
out, build the network and everyday, what I would do is I would
(36:29):
get up in the morning early andI would connect with 15
different people every singleday.
I'd send them a targetedLinkedIn message to say, hey,
dave Nava, transitioning suchand such date prospective
Salesforce professional wouldlove to connect with you and add
you to my network.
And I had a little template thatI had and I would copy and post
it into the message and thenadd their first name and maybe
(36:50):
add a couple more personalizeddetails, because you got to be
able to do it quickly it's 15after all, not like two, but
that's how I generated by thetime I was getting ready to
retire thousands of connectionsand I began having conversations
with people and informationalinterviews and creating those
relationships.
So I'll pause after this.
But I think a mistake that alot of people make whether or
(37:11):
not you're military or not,applies across the board is they
wait too long, like, okay, well, I'm six months out, now I'll
start thinking about creating anetwork and not it's too late.
I mean you can still do it and,by all means, if you're six
months out and you're like Idon't have one, start now, but
you really should start as earlyas you possibly can because it
takes time.
Josh Matthews (37:34):
Yeah, it really does.
Everything takes time, right.
I think a great way to approachit is to be thinking about
whether you and this applies, bythe way, for everybody, it
doesn't matter if you'relistening to this and you're not
military and you're wonderingif all of this advice,
recommendations and insightsbeing shared apply to you.
I'm telling you it does.
(37:55):
Of course it does 100%, andDave just threw up 100%.
So, yes, 100%, it does Right.
One of my sons, my youngest son,is looking at colleges.
Right, he's going to be asenior this year.
I've got one at U of O in thebusiness program already.
But when you start thinkingabout colleges and this is
difficult for 14-year-olds is tostart thinking about college
(38:19):
when you're 14.
That's impossible.
You're trying to figure out howto maybe it's how to not get
beat up in the hallway or how toeven do homework or have some
level of success or define yoursocial group and figure out how
to communicate with your parentsdifferently, even though you're
sort of this half adult Likethere's a lot of stuff to figure
(38:41):
out at that age.
But if you're not thinkingabout college when you're 14,
it's unlikely you're going tohave a top 20 school offered to
you, much less a scholarship, ifyou're not thinking about it
that early, because every yearof grades counts, right, and
it's no different in thecivilian world.
(39:03):
I was speaking with someoneearlier today just to kind of
tie it into the civilian worldfor a moment.
I spoke with someone who worksat a Salesforce partner maybe
about 1,000, 1,500 personpartner and they're in the
account executive field and hewas curious about the market and
we'll be talking about themarket here in just a few
(39:24):
minutes.
But he was talking about themarket and what should he do?
Because he's not making themoney that he once was.
He worked at a very large,well-known software sales
organization doing enterprisesales and in his best year he
made $800,000, just absolutelyan incredible salary plus
commission to earn.
For anybody Like it's anenormous amount of money.
(39:46):
And so he was feeling a littlebit frustrated and the advice I
gave to him is like, look,wherever you are, you've already
got the runway of a year and ahalf of this company right.
So if you're not getting sales,maybe it's the market, but
maybe it's you, maybe there'ssomething that you haven't
figured out yet.
If you'd go and try and go geta new career at a different
(40:07):
company right now and you don'thave the stats to support that.
You're a badass for the lasttwo years in a slightly wonky
market.
Why are they going to take therisk on you and why is there an
expectation that you're going tostart actually making more
money there than you would inthe role that you've already got
a year and a half, two yearsunder your belt width?
Right, you have to startthinking about that now.
(40:27):
So, in short, cut this short.
My advice was figure it out andget some really awesome sales
under your belt over the nextthree to six months and then you
can really start looking,because if you don't have those
successes, if you can'tarticulate your successes, then
it's just a.
It's not a compelling story.
Right For someone to take arisk on you, and anytime someone
(40:50):
hires anybody, they're taking arisk.
You're taking a risk too, allright, it's a shared risk and
everyone's trying to figure outhow to de-risk it the most.
That's why we have interviews,that's why we do reference
checks and that's why everysingle step of the process to
landing a job whether it's goingfrom lead solution engineer,
(41:11):
you know, in one organization todirector of delivery in another
organization or whatever thatjump is going to be.
You have to have some proof andsome successes to capitalize
and be able to articulate andthe time to start thinking about
getting the next job.
If that next job is six months,12 months, a year, two years
out, well then you better havesome bad ass references.
(41:34):
So what can you do in yourcurrent role right now to create
some massive, massivelypowerful examples and stories
around how you are a successfulperson, no matter where you are.
So, all right, that's my little, that's my little diatribe.
We're coming up on 45 minutes,so we're going to wrap up this
(41:56):
section of our live show andwe'll also kind of bring a close
to this podcast.
But if you're listening to thelive show, don't go anywhere,
because we are going to belaunching part two.
We're doing things a little bitdifferent.
Because these shows tend to runlong and because people's
appetite for podcasts tends tobe a little bit shorter than the
(42:18):
length of these shows, we'redividing it into two.
So stay tuned.
We're going to be back in just amoment with David Nava and Phil
Anderson and Vanessa and, bythe way, we'll get a chance to
introduce ourselves to Vanessa,because either of us introduced
ourselves on this show, butlet's do a quick little wrap up
(42:39):
here and then we're going tocome back and start tackling
some questions like what theheck is going on in Salesforce
economy and the tech economy ingeneral, or the general economy
in general.
What are some of the things thatyou can do to stand out from
the crowd to actually land a jobin a difficult slightly
difficult economic situation,which we actually are in right
(43:03):
now?
Hiring has slowed and we needto adapt, so we're going to do
that.
So, dave, thank you so much forbeing on the show, phil, thank
you so much for being on theshow, and everybody else.
Don't go away and if you'relistening to this on the podcast
, make sure you hang out,because in less than a week, the
second part of this show isgoing to be on and you're going
(43:23):
to want to stick around becausewe've started to some very
important and interestingsubjects.
Okay, all right, everybody,thank you so much, thank you.
And now the number one audio program that helps you
to hire, get hired and soarhigher in the Salesforce
ecosystem.
It's the Salesforce career showwith Josh Matthews and Vanessa
Grant.
Josh Matthews (00:21):
Welcome everybody Very excited about our
special military focusedepisode today.
Not only am I here, not a vet,and Vanessa also not a vet, but
we've got some amazing veteransup on stage.
They are very special guests.
We have Mr Philip Anderson andPhilip, why don't you go ahead
(00:42):
and just give us a quickintroduction of yourself?
Josh Mathews (00:45):
Hey, Phillip Anderson, here coming live from
Green Bay, Wisconsin.
I was on vacation Airforceveteran Deloitte consultant
within the government or GPS andspecializing in Salesforce.
Josh Matthews (01:02):
All right, thanks Phil, and we also have
David Scott Naba.
Yeah, thanks, josh.
Dave Nader (01:08):
Dave Nader , lead solution engineer at Salesforce,
also in global public sector orGPS, helping our DOD customers
discover the wonders ofSalesforce.
Super excited to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Josh Matthews (01:19):
Of course, david , you did forget to share that.
You're a golden hoodie.
I think most people who knowyou already know that, but
that's an extremely special andrare honor and we're honored to
have both of you guys on theshow today.
But we've got some otherveterans on the show too, like
Larry Lee.
Great to see you, larry.
We had a chance to meet atDreamforce.
(01:39):
We've got Jason up here.
Jason Zykerowitz is a regularon our program, as is Peter
Gonza, so welcome to you guys aswell and everybody else who's
listening here on the live show.
And if you're listening on thepodcast, we appreciate you
joining us today.
If you haven't subscribed tothe podcast, please be sure to
(01:59):
do so, and if you're listeningto this, you can probably figure
out how to do that.
So what we want to do today isreally understand from both
David and Phil really how didthey make their own personal
transitions into the ecosystem,from a career military
professional, into technologyand specifically into the
Salesforce ecosystem?
(02:20):
We're going to get down dirtywith them on this topic and then
also understand some of theirspecific advice, recommendations
and resources that they'llshare with us about how you, if
you are in the military, ifyou're active duty, or if you're
retired from active duty butstruggling to make a transition
(02:41):
and interested in potentiallyspeaking too.
So let's go ahead and startwith Dave.
Tell us a little bit about yourjourney.
Dave Nader (02:51):
Yeah, happy to do it Again.
Thanks for having me.
So I served for 20 years in themilitary and my whole family
was military, fromgreat-grandfather on down
relative, sister.
So that's really all I knew.
And I was planning mytransition about five years out
because I'm a planner and I wastrying to figure out what I
wanted to do.
(03:12):
Initially I thought, like a lotof military folks think, I'd get
into project management becausethat's similar to what we do on
the day-to-day.
And the more I dug into it, themore I realized it just wasn't a
good fit.
But I didn't know what was agood fit and so I spent some
time doing a deep dive in myself, read a few books and luckily
(03:33):
found Salesforce and I found itthrough LinkedIn, through a
mentor of mine who suggested itdiscovered Trailhead, trailhead
Military and immediately fell inlove and was sold.
It appealed to the projectmanagement side of my brain, but
it also appealed to the sidesof my brain I didn't know I had
the creative side, theproblem-solving side.
(03:54):
So I spent the next year or soAt that point it was about a
year until I retired Upskillingon the platform, volunteering
with nonprofits, participatingin an internship and ultimately
got hired the day I retired to aplatinum consulting firm in the
partner ecosystem as a juniorsolution architect building
(04:15):
Salesforce implementations forcustomers.
So that's in a nutshell, that'skind of my transition journey
and happy, over the course oftonight's episode, to kind of
break it down, answer somequestions and dig a bit deeper.
Josh Matthews (04:27):
Thanks for sharing that, dave.
Really appreciate it, and maybeyou can share a little bit too
about how you're contributingcurrently to active and retired
veterans.
Dave Nader (04:41):
Yeah, so I do a bunch of outreach.
I have a soft spot in my heartfor anyone that's trying to
enter the ecosystem, because Iknow that I struggled with it.
This was in 2018, it was a timebefore Trailhead Military
existed.
It was still in that force.
There were resources, but theyweren't as varied and as robust
(05:02):
as they are today, and a lot offolks that aren't military that
are just transitioning into theydon't have the same level of
resources, and so I wanted tohelp folks enter the ecosystem
and discover the passions that Ihave with solving customer
problems and building things,and so initially I was just kind
(05:23):
of ad hoc mentoring for a while, for a couple of years through
LinkedIn and then eventuallythrough Venerati, which is an
online mentoring platform.
It's free to sign up and then Idecided I wanted to kind of
scale it and reach more people.
And the number one problem thatyou know in talking to folks
about transitions whether you'remilitary or not military,
(05:44):
anyone enters the ecosystem.
I think one of the first thingsthey think is holy cow.
There's so many differentpositions, so many different
roles.
A lot of them sound the same.
I don't even know what to pick.
I need some kind of resource tofigure it out, and so I kind of
made it my mission to providethose resources.
And so I talked to Bill KeelerBill's one of the co-founders of
(06:07):
Resource here, which is anAppExchange partner, brilliant
guy and he was doing officehours every Friday and he still
does.
Friday is at noon, not Easternand he said you know.
I reached out and I said hey,listen, bill, you do technical
sessions.
I am technical, but not nearlyas technical as you are.
He's a developer.
I'd love to do a Wednesdaysession if I could just borrow
(06:28):
your brand a bit and talk aboutprofessional development.
So he said yes, he helped meget set up.
He's been a staunch supporterever since, and every week we
began diving into a differentcareer path.
So tonight we had Salesforcebent on and we were.
We diverged a bit from careerpath exploration.
We were talking about layoffsand market downturns and how to
survive those, and that was our99th episode.
(06:51):
And we have over 180 videos onYouTube devoted to exploring
different Salesforce careerpaths as well as skill sets
required to end the ecosystem,how to get in From all different
perspectives.
I invite different co-hostsevery week.
Sometimes it's multipleco-hosts, and so we've had over
180 different co-hosts sharetheir experiences across 4,000
(07:11):
different participants overthose 99 sessions.
So it's been really, reallygreat to get back to the
community and we're still goingstrong.
Josh Matthews (07:19):
Well that you are my friend, and today was
actually the first time I had achance to show up to the office
hours and I thought it wasfantastic.
It was a great platform.
I love that it's on video.
You know this is this is alsonice, doing a podcast, because I
didn't have to comb my hair orput on a clean shirt Don't worry
(07:39):
, my shirt's actually clean butI love the format, and that
you're able to reach out just onyour own and help support so
many careers, and especiallythose trying to enter into the
ecosystem, is truly remarkable.
We're going to get back to youhere in just a moment, dave.
I'm curious about Phil'stransition also.
(08:00):
Now, phil, if I understandcorrectly, you've been in the
ecosystem a little bit less thantwo years.
Is that accurate?
Yes, okay, and this is what Ilove about having the both of
you on is we have someone who'sbeen in it just a little bit
longer and and and then someonewho's a little bit newer and
(08:20):
that recent experience oftransitioning from military into
the ecosystem is is what we'regoing to lean on you for today,
phillip.
So talk to us about what didyou do before, what were you
doing in the Air Force, and then, how did this transition into
Salesforce occur for you?
Josh Mathews (08:38):
So, yeah, so you know, thanks for having me.
And so I kind of am the exactopposite of David.
I didn't have anyone in myfamily that was in the military
besides, like a cousin who wasin Army reserves.
After I graduated college, Ididn't know what I was going to
do.
I had bills to pay and I had nodirection.
So I asked my sister to pick upa recruiters card from the Navy
(09:06):
, because you know, everyonewants to be a Navy SEAL and
watching videos and realize I'mnot a good swimmer.
So then I went to the Air Force, because none of the jobs
really require that muchswimming, or so I thought.
Talk to.
The recruiter knew I wanted todo something more you know
running and gunning and shooting.
So joined the Air Force, spent13 years in special warfare and
(09:31):
special operations where I was aJTAC and my job was to you know
, in civilian terms was I was aconsultant in chaos.
I was the guy on the groundwith the commander telling them
the best way to utilize air toground munitions.
So I did that, like I said, forabout 13 years and then was
told about 11 and a half yearsthat I can't do it anymore
(09:55):
because I was pretty broke fromjumping out of planes and faster
up and out of helicopters, sodidn't have any.
You know, once again, what am Igoing to do.
I've been shooting my wholecareer field or my whole career.
So went and talked to atransition mentor and the whole
(10:16):
time she was talking aboutSalesforce and she was saying,
how you know, hey, the, you knowSalesforce.
We're seeing a lot of veteransgo from the military to
Salesforce.
And for 45 minutes she wassaying Salesforce and the whole
time I thought she was talkingabout Space Force.
So that's actually how I foundout about Salesforce was by a by
(10:38):
accident.
Josh Matthews (10:39):
Just a little less risky, just a little.
Josh Mathews (10:42):
Yeah, just yeah.
So it's, you know, it ended upworking out, so got into, you
know, found Salesforce, and thenI found out about, actually,
david's podcast and I went anddid an office hours, spoke to a
couple of the participants therethat actually were Merivis
(11:04):
graduates.
So I joined Merivis and they,you know, helped me become a
Salesforce admin and from thereit was really just networking,
networking, networking, findingout which companies, which firms
I wanted to work for, what Iwanted to do.
And yeah, that's basically mystory and it's a good one man.
Josh Matthews (11:29):
I'm kind of curious this is just a quick,
fun question for both you guyswhat would be the equivalent of
fast roping out of a helicopterin the Salesforce ecosystem?
In other words, what's sort ofa slightly dangerous thing that
you might have to do thatdoesn't last very long but is
critical to being successful inthe ecosystem?
(11:51):
I know it's a weird question,but let's see if you can answer
it.
I might have to think yeah, noone wants to go first.
Josh Mathews (11:58):
That's okay.
Yeah, I mean.
Yeah, there's really nothinglike it.
Yeah, there's nothing like it.
I mean, you're fast roping from30 feet and you're probably on
a rope for five seconds maybe.
Yeah, I don't have really havean answer to that.
Josh Matthews (12:18):
Okay, honestly, it was a stupid question.
Now, one thing I want to askabout there was a study done by
Syracuse University's Institutefor Veterans and Military
Families that found thatveterans are 70% more likely to
be employed in the fields oftechnology, engineering and math
(12:41):
or STEM positions in general,compared to non-veterans.
I'm kind of curious what do youguys think about when you think
about that little fact or thatlittle result from that study
and you think about the folksthat you were working between
elbow to elbow with in the fieldbefore your Salesforce days.
(13:02):
Does this make sense?
I mean, does it ring true inany way, shape or form?
Does it seem obvious, in thesame way, that a lot of
musicians who can read you know,read sheet music get into
coding and development?
I'm kind of curious.
If that's something that you'verecognized, go ahead, david.
Dave Nader (13:24):
Yeah, I think a direct answer is no, no caveat.
So coming out of the militaryand considering a career in tech
, this is not something I everconsidered entering.
I did not consider myself techsavvy.
I could use a computer, basicMicrosoft competencies, and that
(13:48):
was really about it.
I had technical experience butit was all military related and
didn't really transition at allto anything currently in the
tech world, unless I wanted tofly or work with DoD gear.
But from the inside now,looking back out, I'd say
(14:08):
absolutely, because what youhave to realize is tech is all
about problem solving.
If you like to solve problems,if you're methodical, if you
like to apply a structuredapproach to complex solutioning
which most folks in the military, whether they realize it or not
, probably do then yeah, itmakes perfect sense.
(14:30):
And once I was able to reframeit in that context, I realized
that it was a fantastic fit forme but it took some doing so.
I would offer that you don'talways know where you're going
to end up.
You don't always know what's agood fit until you explore it,
and so what I tell folksfrequently is if you don't know
what you want to do, that's fine, it's totally normal.
(14:52):
Most people don't.
You got to test drive your life.
You got to test drive differentcareer paths, and how do you do
that?
Well, you talk to people firstand foremost.
You have informationalinterviews.
You talk to people in differentroles, whether it's Salesforce
or something else, and youfigure out what it's like
through their eyes.
And if you're interested, thenmaybe you dabble a bit in
Salesforce world.
It's Trailhead.
It's creating your own Dev workand spinning it up and building
(15:14):
apps.
It's creating experience cloudsite and creating your own
digital portfolio and othervarious things.
So I would just encouragepeople to be curious and don't
don't think you know what youwant, because you may not.
You got to have an open mind.
Beginner's mindset is somethingwe use often.
(15:34):
I firmly believe in that andjust explored space.
Josh Matthews (15:40):
Very good thoughts on the subject.
David, thank you for sharingthat, and I'd like to ask you
guys about some commonmisconceptions that civilian
Organizations and companies mayhave about hiring veterans.
Now I've been in, you know,recruiting and staffing for I
Think it's 24 years now.
(16:00):
It's been a long time and haveplaced a number of veterans.
But I've, more importantly,have spoken to a lot of hiring
managers and I've heard themobject to hiring Not recently
and not lately, and certainly,you know, would never Be a
laydown for this kind ofpushback but have heard them say
(16:22):
, well, yeah, but we need peopleto think, you know, we need
people who aren't just ordertakers.
And I think that there might besome real common misconceptions
about Veterans joining thecivilian workforce.
I think that's one of them.
I'm kind of curious if you'verecognized similar
misconceptions, either you know,impacting your own career and
(16:45):
career advancement, or some ofthe folks that you work
alongside, or or just you knowBrothers and arms from the past,
if that misconception is onethat's common and if there are
other misconceptions that weshould take a moment to blow
right out of the water right now, once and for all.
Josh Mathews (17:05):
Yeah, I can kind of take this one.
I would say that maybe five toten years ago there might have
been a applause to hire veterans, because you're worried that
it's gonna be, you know, earlyemory.
From what's that?
What's the movie?
(17:25):
The Stanley Kubrick metaljacket, full metal jacket?
Yeah, you're thinking they'regonna be just these, these,
these guys that are going crazy,and these girls.
Josh Matthews (17:33):
This is my right .
Josh Mathews (17:35):
Well, that's yeah, yeah, exactly, you know we are
order takers, we, we we'redriven, we, you know, and I
would say for companies thatthat that are looking to hire
veterans.
You know I always say thatveterans and veteran spouses are
we're kind of like a, anUntapped rich oil field of
(17:56):
experience.
We have a lot of leadershipexperience, no matter what
branch you're in.
We are order takers and we ownwhat.
We own what were, what weregiven.
We're own, we own that job andyou know we don't like to fail,
we love to, we love to have asuccessful mission and and it's
(18:19):
it's that drive that I thinkthat is really important and and
you see, with it's reallyimportant to to Let veterans
know that their experiences Inthe military are important to
those companies.
And yeah, but I would say, likethe biggest problem I've noticed
(18:41):
for me with being a, you know,in the military is I have a as a
consultant Now and you knowcivilian world is I don't ask
why.
A lot, you know, you tell me todo something and I do it and I
don't have that, that thatexperience yet to ask, well, why
(19:02):
am I doing this?
And and I think, as aconsultant, that is important to
do so yeah, I mean, that's kindof how I would answer it is you
know, that's it.
Josh Matthews (19:16):
That makes a ton of sense.
I mean, vanessa talks aboutthis a lot, right?
Just she's in the world ofSolutioning, but you know she's
the queen of BA and and you pipeup any time, vanessa.
But that asking, like why Imean, we've got episodes and
episodes dedicated toSpecifically that like well, but
why do you want to do it thatway?
Why does this even make sense?
(19:37):
And like how do we even knowthat this makes sense?
So that's a critical point.
And just so you know you do nothave to raise your hand, dave,
he just jumped right in.
Dave Nader (19:49):
Yeah, I would.
I would piggyback on that tosay I think Phil, spot on.
It's not as prevalent today asit once was.
But then again, I'm not lookingat companies that don't have
Vibrant military communities.
I won't even consider them.
So all the companies that Ireached out to, I knew for a
fact before I even got startedthey were gonna be supportive
(20:09):
based upon their presence insocial media, their website,
folks that I've talked to thatwork there.
So I had already removed allthose companies that maybe have
doubts about the militarycommunity from my from my scan.
I Will say that these daysthere's probably a greater
reluctance then from theveterans.
(20:30):
Hiring is military spousehiring simply because Some mill
spouses don't want toself-identify, which is fine.
But regardless, when you lookat a mill spouse.
Josh Matthews (20:43):
What do you mean by that?
You mean they don't want to saythat they're a military spouse.
Dave Nader (20:48):
Yes, there's two trains of thought with that One,
if you identify as a millspouse, some folks feel that
you'll automatically be excludedand some folks feel that well,
I should, because I'm proud ofit and it's not something that I
I feel like.
They feel like it bringsstrength and unique perspective
to the application process and Iwould agree wholeheartedly,
(21:14):
really, with both.
Right, folks do discriminatebased upon mill spouse
candidates and it doescommunicate a wealth of
experience.
The issue is that someemployers will look at a mill
spouse's resume, linked inprofile, and they'll see they've
worked in a variety ofdifferent employers.
Sometimes it's frequently, asevery other year, and without
(21:37):
digging deeper, without trulyseeking to understand, they just
see someone that can't holddown a job or someone that maybe
is flighty and can't make uptheir mind.
Which could be further from thetruth.
Mill spouses have to move quitea bit and sometimes they're
taking care of families andextended families and maybe they
also have gaps in employment.
But what you have to take intoconsideration is they've done a
(22:00):
wide variety of different jobs.
They are masters of flexibility, of change management, of
problem solving, of firefighting, you name it.
They bring a wide variety ofskills to the mix across a
number of different meta areas,and those are the folks you want
to hire.
They're the people that getstuff done.
(22:20):
Yeah, military service membersand veterans yes, I mean, we get
stuff done.
But who's holding down the fortwhen we're off doing the
military thing and handling allthe issues that come up?
It's Mill Spouses.
So I would like to seeemployers be more open to
(22:40):
viewing their resumes, theirLinkedIn profiles, their
credentials with an open mind.
Instead of seeing someone thathas changed jobs a lot, see
someone that brings a welcomeexperience.
Guest (22:54):
So today, david, I know you touched on some of those
transferable skills, but whenyou're mentoring folks that are
transitioning from the military,what are the most prevalent
transferable skills that peopledevelop that they should be
bringing up during theirinterviews, when they're talking
to people?
Dave Nader (23:12):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Skills translation is reallytough.
Take, for example, me.
I was an able flight officerfor EA 6Bs, so my job, day in,
day out, was jamming enemy radarand communications and there's
just no one in the civilianworld that wants you to do that.
It's illegal.
So I had to take those skillsand convert them into skills
(23:33):
that employers found valuable.
And when you don't have a techbackground, when you don't have
tech skills like I didn't, youdon't have a tech network, you
kind of have to extrapolate andmove from a tactical kind of
looking at your immediate skillsto more of the strategic.
And that's where I get intometa skills, those skills that
(23:53):
help you develop other skills,those skills that help you do a
wide variety of things.
So, to directly answer yourquestion, that's things like
problem solving.
We're really good at problemsolving because every two, three
years we move to a differentduty station and we don't get on
the job training.
We just have to figure it outand do it, and then you move
again, you figure it out and youdo it again, and so that breeds
(24:15):
the ability to approachsituation, assess it, size it up
, figure out what the issue is,root cause analysis, solve the
problem, triage and manage it.
So that's one thing.
The ability to learn, which alot of people take for granted,
but it's a skill.
How do you rapidly take ininformation and make use of it
(24:38):
is absolutely a skill.
And so we have to not justmilitary service members but
spouses as well have to rapidlylearn new things very quickly
and put them into play.
So that's another skill that webring.
You know, conflict management,going off to war or fighting
fires at home, necessarily isvery stressful, very difficult,
(24:58):
and you have to be able to do itwith a cool head.
So there's that, and I can keepgoing on and on and on.
But there are thesefoundational skills that a lot
of people have but no one reallyhas to the same degree, the
same quantity that the militarycommunity does, that we bring to
the job space, and that youcan't, you just simply can't
(25:18):
train them.
It would take years and years,and years.
You can't train someone to be aproblem solver, train someone
to recognize and put out fires.
So you know, you hire for thatand you train the technical
skills later.
Josh Matthews (25:33):
Exactly.
You know, I love that we'retalking about this right now,
and those are terrific points,david.
I like to think of them less asskills and more as behaviors.
Right, you have a behavior oflike I'm going to get this done.
I'm going to get this done, nomatter what.
I understand that there's going, there are going to be
(25:54):
obstacles in the way.
That's why I've got the job isto figure out how to overcome
these obstacles and to not stopuntil I've overcome it.
Right, but that's a.
That's a, that's an attitude.
It's a behavior that thatequates specifically to results,
regardless of the obstacle infront.
Right.
(26:15):
And so, for those listening,whether it's live or on the
podcast, when you areconsidering making a transition
or trying to figure out, like,how do I?
I mean, how do I transition, orhow do I specifically describe?
You know, like Phil, forexample, like you know, I'm on
(26:37):
the ground, targetingspecifically where, where the
Air Force needs to dropordinance, right, like.
But what were the behaviors,attitudes that I had to use, an
approach, what was the tempo ofmy thinking?
What was I competent, what weremy competencies under extreme
stress?
Right, and being able toarticulate those behaviors,
(26:59):
articulate those attitudes, Ithink is a really great way to
at least begin figuring outthose skill sets.
You know that those key words,buzzwords that people are
looking for, ai scanning on yourresume that you can really
articulate when you're sittingdown face to face, either in
person or maybe on a Google Meetor a Zoom meeting for your
(27:23):
first interview.
And when you, when you'vedeveloped the ability to
articulate those behaviors orthose meta skills, you're going
to be a lot more confident goinginto this, into the session,
into the meeting, and trulystand out.
So really great points, let'slet's ask Phil for a second how
did you translate what you didto getting to the point where
(27:47):
you were able to obtain a wholenew career as a consultant?
So what I would do is I would.
Josh Mathews (27:56):
I looked at like my EPRs and I really kind of got
down to what exactly I wasdoing, like, case in point,
being a JTAC, you know, callingin airstrikes, doing all that
stuff Like what was I actuallydoing to?
To do that I was doing, talkingto the ground commander,
(28:19):
talking to the on scenecommander and saying, hey, sir,
you know, ma'am, this is what isgoing on, this is what I
recommend, that is, consultingYou're, you're finding a
solution to a problem, you'regiving the client a what your
recommendation is and they caneither buy it or they can you
(28:40):
know, hey, I don't, you knowdisagree with it.
So that was how I kind offigured out being a JTAC was
being a consultant.
You know, I was also abattalion air liaison officer.
Like I was, I was in charge offive or six individuals and so I
had to think about it Okay, soI'm a.
(29:01):
You know we called ourselvesBaylows.
So I'm a Baylow, I'm a.
You know, I'm in charge ofthese people.
What am I doing?
I'm managing these people.
So I was a manager.
And then, once you kind offigure out that, like Rosetta
Stone of military to civiliancomparison, it became really
(29:23):
easy.
That being said, it wasn't easyfiguring it out.
It was always that challenge.
So that was you know what Iwould, what I did, and I would
also reach out to veterans thatwere working at firms and
companies and ask them for theirresumes and hey, can I see your
(29:45):
resumes, can I see what verbageyou use?
And figure out what they did.
And that helped me a lot, justgetting out there and talking to
veterans, because you knowwe're 1% of the of the
population and we're all, we'recommunity and we're always going
to want to help each other out.
Like you know David, you knowhe's probably helped out
(30:07):
thousands upon thousands ofveterans and and spouses, and
you know that's that's.
One thing is you're not, you'renot going to go through this
journey alone.
You need to, but you have to bewilling to ask for that help.
So that's kind of how I did it.
(30:28):
I figured out what I did and,if I didn't have a good answer,
just reached out to people forhelp.
Josh Matthews (30:36):
Well, that's a smart move, man, right?
Because it's not the how, it'sthe who.
Half the time, right?
And and I think a lot of timespeople are like how do I do this
, how do I do this, how do I dothis?
And really it's like who knowsthis?
That's the shortcut.
Who knows this shit already?
Let me go talk to them andfigure out what they've done.
And you guys know this stuff,which is why you're on the show,
(30:57):
so I'm glad that you're able tobe here and share this right
now.
Yeah, I'm kind of curious.
Guest (31:03):
I was actually just going to throw in just to add on to
the the point about reaching outto people.
So from my experience I know atmy company we are part of the
hiring our heroes program andseveral times at this point as
so I'm sure David and Phil canprobably explain the hiring our
(31:27):
heroes program better than Icould I can certainly talk
through my experience of workingwith folks once they've already
joined.
But part of what it is is thatthere's a few different programs
that are offered.
They get to work over thecourse, I think, of 10 to 12
weeks at a company and then atthe end the company decides that
(31:48):
they're gonna move forward andhire that person.
But what I thought was greatwas when folks reached out to me
, like they just found me onLinkedIn, noticed I had worked
at one of the organizations thatwas part of the program and
asked me about my experience atthe company, just so that they
could get an idea of what thesalaries were like, what the
promotion path was like, whatthe program was like if they
(32:10):
chose my company to join.
But for sure, reaching out topeople just want to echo how
important that is.
Josh Matthews (32:18):
Yeah, it's the difference between job and no
job.
Often times, right I can't tellyou how many times people reach
out to me every single day Iprobably get around like 20, 30,
40 invites a day on LinkedIn,and not all of them, but enough
of them.
Maybe 25 to 30, 40 percent havea question, right, like how do
(32:42):
I do this or how do I get intothat, or how do I do this and
that?
The other thing, which, ofcourse, the whole reason why we
started this show a few yearsago was to give people that
platform.
Now you've got a platform,david, for military folks.
But I'm curious, do you have arecommendation for the people
listening here right now who maybe active duty?
(33:04):
Or maybe they just, you know,they just got off base and
they're exploring a new careerin the civilian world, whether
it's Salesforce or another techcompany or just neither but a
professional career in thecivilian world.
You know there's there's achallenge, I think, for veterans
coming out of that very I don'teven want to say insular
(33:26):
because it's so big, but makingthat transition from military to
civilian, which is the networkright, when you go from your
network or the majority of yournetwork or other military
professionals versus civilianprofessionals?
Would you, for instance,recommend that even if someone's
active duty and they're goingto be, they've got a couple more
(33:49):
years to go before theytransition?
For instance, would yourecommend that they get a
LinkedIn profile now and startexploring as early as a couple
years before a transitionhappens and start just kind of
getting used to the technicalspeak and the way civilian
communication in business isdifferent because it is than in
(34:12):
the military?
Or do you have some otheradvice of what can people be
doing now before they even exit?
Dave Nader (34:19):
Yeah.
So short answer 100%,absolutely.
The one thing you can't do isrush relationships.
You can't build relationshipsin a vacuum.
You can't build them veryrapidly and, you know, create
them in an emergency.
You have to have them alreadybuilt in order to access them
and derive value from them.
So I always tell people starttwo years out, even if you don't
(34:39):
know what you want to do.
It takes a long, in some casesa long time to figure that out.
Start two years out.
Create a LinkedIn profile.
You know dress for the rolethat you want.
So you probably shouldn't haveyour military photo in there if
you're going to be transitioningand getting out.
If you're farther out than that, sure have your military photo
in there, but change it later onand start putting your
(35:00):
experience in there, translatingit as best you can, because
it's a skill that it takes timeand practice to master,
translating those skills andbeginning connecting with people
.
But have a purpose right.
Have an idea of where you want,you know.
Have an idea of the end, of theend of mind and where you want
to go.
So don't just like what I did,as I was.
So I'm like, okay, I have tohave a LinkedIn profile, so I
(35:21):
created one.
A couple years out, I beganconnecting with everybody across
all industries.
Essentially, that becomesuseless, right, because your
feed is going to be filled withnoise.
You need to figure out at leastan industry.
If not, if not an industry,then go even narrower and figure
out exactly where in thatindustry maybe even a company
that you want to work at, orseveral companies and begin
(35:43):
connecting with everyone in thatindustry, at those specific
targeted companies immediatelyand start creating content,
start interacting with theircontent, ask for informational
interviews, build thoserelationships, put the time and
effort into it and it'll do acouple of things.
And you're going to gradually,after having conversations
within your desired industry,learn the industry language and
(36:05):
be able to translate your skillsmuch more easily, because it is
a different language than oneyou're not well equipped to
speak if you've been talkingmilitary speak your whole life.
And two, you're going to havethose relationships that you
could then leverage when it'stime to actually transition and
you're looking for work.
So I would absolutely startearly, start a couple of years
out, build the network and everyday, what I would do is I would
(36:29):
get up in the morning early andI would connect with 15
different people every singleday.
I'd send them a targetedLinkedIn message to say, hey,
dave Nava, transitioning suchand such date prospective
Salesforce professional wouldlove to connect with you and add
you to my network.
And I had a little template thatI had and I would copy and post
it into the message and thenadd their first name and maybe
(36:50):
add a couple more personalizeddetails, because you got to be
able to do it quickly it's 15after all, not like two, but
that's how I generated by thetime I was getting ready to
retire thousands of connectionsand I began having conversations
with people and informationalinterviews and creating those
relationships.
So I'll pause after this.
But I think a mistake that alot of people make whether or
(37:11):
not you're military or not,applies across the board is they
wait too long, like, okay, well, I'm six months out, now I'll
start thinking about creating anetwork and not it's too late.
I mean you can still do it and,by all means, if you're six
months out and you're like Idon't have one, start now, but
you really should start as earlyas you possibly can because it
takes time.
Josh Matthews (37:34):
Yeah, it really does.
Everything takes time, right.
I think a great way to approachit is to be thinking about
whether you and this applies, bythe way, for everybody, it
doesn't matter if you'relistening to this and you're not
military and you're wonderingif all of this advice,
recommendations and insightsbeing shared apply to you.
I'm telling you it does.
(37:55):
Of course it does 100%, andDave just threw up 100%.
So, yes, 100%, it does Right.
One of my sons, my youngest son,is looking at colleges.
Right, he's going to be asenior this year.
I've got one at U of O in thebusiness program already.
But when you start thinkingabout colleges and this is
difficult for 14-year-olds is tostart thinking about college
(38:19):
when you're 14.
That's impossible.
You're trying to figure out howto maybe it's how to not get
beat up in the hallway or how toeven do homework or have some
level of success or define yoursocial group and figure out how
to communicate with your parentsdifferently, even though you're
sort of this half adult Likethere's a lot of stuff to figure
(38:41):
out at that age.
But if you're not thinkingabout college when you're 14,
it's unlikely you're going tohave a top 20 school offered to
you, much less a scholarship, ifyou're not thinking about it
that early, because every yearof grades counts, right, and
it's no different in thecivilian world.
(39:03):
I was speaking with someoneearlier today just to kind of
tie it into the civilian worldfor a moment.
I spoke with someone who worksat a Salesforce partner maybe
about 1,000, 1,500 personpartner and they're in the
account executive field and hewas curious about the market and
we'll be talking about themarket here in just a few
(39:24):
minutes.
But he was talking about themarket and what should he do?
Because he's not making themoney that he once was.
He worked at a very large,well-known software sales
organization doing enterprisesales and in his best year he
made $800,000, just absolutelyan incredible salary plus
commission to earn.
For anybody Like it's anenormous amount of money.
(39:46):
And so he was feeling a littlebit frustrated and the advice I
gave to him is like, look,wherever you are, you've already
got the runway of a year and ahalf of this company right.
So if you're not getting sales,maybe it's the market, but
maybe it's you, maybe there'ssomething that you haven't
figured out yet.
If you'd go and try and go geta new career at a different
(40:07):
company right now and you don'thave the stats to support that.
You're a badass for the lasttwo years in a slightly wonky
market.
Why are they going to take therisk on you and why is there an
expectation that you're going tostart actually making more
money there than you would inthe role that you've already got
a year and a half, two yearsunder your belt width?
Right, you have to startthinking about that now.
(40:27):
So, in short, cut this short.
My advice was figure it out andget some really awesome sales
under your belt over the nextthree to six months and then you
can really start looking,because if you don't have those
successes, if you can'tarticulate your successes, then
it's just a.
It's not a compelling story.
Right For someone to take arisk on you, and anytime someone
(40:50):
hires anybody, they're taking arisk.
You're taking a risk too, allright, it's a shared risk and
everyone's trying to figure outhow to de-risk it the most.
That's why we have interviews,that's why we do reference
checks and that's why everysingle step of the process to
landing a job whether it's goingfrom lead solution engineer,
(41:11):
you know, in one organization todirector of delivery in another
organization or whatever thatjump is going to be.
You have to have some proof andsome successes to capitalize
and be able to articulate andthe time to start thinking about
getting the next job.
If that next job is six months,12 months, a year, two years
out, well then you better havesome bad ass references.
(41:34):
So what can you do in yourcurrent role right now to create
some massive, massivelypowerful examples and stories
around how you are a successfulperson, no matter where you are.
So, all right, that's my little, that's my little diatribe.
We're coming up on 45 minutes,so we're going to wrap up this
(41:56):
section of our live show andwe'll also kind of bring a close
to this podcast.
But if you're listening to thelive show, don't go anywhere,
because we are going to belaunching part two.
We're doing things a little bitdifferent.
Because these shows tend to runlong and because people's
appetite for podcasts tends tobe a little bit shorter than the
(42:18):
length of these shows, we'redividing it into two.
So stay tuned.
We're going to be back in just amoment with David Nava and Phil
Anderson and Vanessa and, bythe way, we'll get a chance to
introduce ourselves to Vanessa,because either of us introduced
ourselves on this show, butlet's do a quick little wrap up
(42:39):
here and then we're going tocome back and start tackling
some questions like what theheck is going on in Salesforce
economy and the tech economy ingeneral, or the general economy
in general.
What are some of the things thatyou can do to stand out from
the crowd to actually land a jobin a difficult slightly
difficult economic situation,which we actually are in right
(43:03):
now?
Hiring has slowed and we needto adapt, so we're going to do
that.
So, dave, thank you so much forbeing on the show, phil, thank
you so much for being on theshow, and everybody else.
Don't go away and if you'relistening to this on the podcast
, make sure you hang out,because in less than a week, the
second part of this show isgoing to be on and you're going
(43:23):
to want to stick around becausewe've started to some very
important and interestingsubjects.
Okay, all right, everybody,thank you so much, thank you.
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