Mastering Career and Salary Negotiations: Salesforce, AI Insights, and Strategies

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:02):
And now the number one audio program that helps you
to hire, get hired and soarhigher in the Salesforce
ecosystem.
It's the Salesforce career showwith Josh Matthews and Vanessa
Grant.

Josh Matthews (00:21):
All right, welcome everybody.
You've got a nice little crewhere today.
I love my panel, my panel, mypanel, my panel.
All right, my name is JoshMatthews.
I'm here with my amazingco-host, vanessa Grant.
Go ahead and give us a littleholler there, vanessa.

Vanessa Grant (00:36):
Hi, I'm Vanessa Grant.

All right, what an amazing intro.
We're keeping it short, like ifyou've never heard us before,
we'll, we'll, you'll figure itout.
Oh, okay, tell them what you do.
You've got a new gig.
What's your job?
What do you do, vanessa?

I do, I do, you know.
Actually, I don't think I'vetalked about the new gig very
much on the on the show yeteither.
I have accepted a role in thelast month as a product owner
for a fintech company calledMosaic.

Mosaic.
Yeah, that's a neat company bythe way.
And we've got some friends.
You and I both have somefriends that were already
working there.
So neat, neat company.

Oh my gosh, you know the.
It's that power of networking.
You know, I didn't realize that.
You know, speaking at TahoeDreaming for three years in a
row and then connecting withBill Greenhall, All of a sudden
we'd be on the same team threeyears later.
Tahoe Dreaming was my firstspeaking engagement in person.
That's right, and so just again, a testament to the power of

(01:39):
networking and really keeping upwith those connections over the
years.
You never know.

You never know.
Well, congrats on the new job.
You're worth every penny of itand I know you're going to do
amazing things.
And Mosaic, by the way, doessome pretty neat stuff with
technology and they're veryeco-friendly.
They help support green energy.
So they're a neat group andthey hire very, very smart
people.
We've got more people.

(02:06):
Yes, they do, yes, they do.
Let's also introduce FredKedena.
Fred, who are you?

Fred Cadena (02:13):
I am Fred Kedena, a man of mystery.
No, I have been in and aroundthe sales for a single system
for 16 years, as a customerfirst, and accidental admin and
consultant for 10 years.
Most of my experience has beenin financial services.
So if you want to talkfinancial services or you want

(02:33):
to talk Salesforce, I am alwayshappy to connect.

Well, it's always great to have you here on the
show, Fred, and if you haven'tchecked it out, do check out
Banking on Disruption.
I'm Fred's podcast.
I'm on Once in a while towardsthe back end and it's a super
fun show, very informative.
We also have with us our friend, Mr Peter Ganza.
Hey, Peter, let's hear theintro.

Peter Ganza (02:55):
I am the AppExchange Whisperer, the
artist formerly known as PeterGanza, a Salesforce alumni and
then the ecosystem, ever since Iworked at Salesforce in a
marketing product marketingcapacity and avid listener.
Speaker on the Vanessa and.

Josh show.
Yep, you are one smart tomatobuddy and we're glad that you're
here Again.
My name is Josh Matthews, I runthe Salesforce recruitercom and
host this fun show, andrecently both Fred and I had a
chance to connect and hang outat Florida Dreaming, which took
place in beautiful clear waterFlorida, at the Sheraton, right

(03:38):
on the water, and it wasbeautiful like truly those
sunsets, man, you cannot beatthem.
We even had a chance to go outon a boat or my old boat club,
and so we took off from clearwater all the way across Tampa
Bay and with Casey, and we sawsome amazing dolphins jumping
out of the water.
The weather couldn't have beenbetter, the company couldn't

(04:00):
have been better, it just couldhave been more people, more
awesome people that we love likethose here on the panel, you've
spent 80% of the time in theboat.
You don't.
Come on, fred, really live,you're going to go there.
You're going to go there, buddy.
Yeah, we hit some shallows.
I had to drag it across someseagrass.
Yeah, it's whatever.
Any location that happens, itwas awesome.

(04:21):
Not my boat, not my problem.
That's what I always say.
And we're also joined by StevenGregor.
Steven has been absolutelycrushing it.
I'm going to invite him tospeak.
Steven is the director ofrecruiting for the Salesforce
recruiter.
We have a number of openingsright now, so we'll just go
ahead and plug those veryquickly.
We have a business analyst,remote business analyst role,

(04:44):
ideally East Coast.
And are you raising your handor are you waving high?
I don't even know what thatsymbol is.
It looked like the letter L orsomething on sign language.
He's not a speaker yet, so wedon't know.
So we've got a BA role.
We've got an account executiverole for a nonprofit Salesforce
partner.
We have an advanced admin with,hopefully, some very good niche

(05:08):
experience in field service,and also a middle of the road
Salesforce administrator 80 to100K kind of person for an
opportunity too.
So if you are interested inthese roles, don't reach out to
me, just reach out to StevenGregor.
That's G-R-E-G-E-R.
As Steven has reminded memultiple times this week, so be

(05:31):
sure to connect with him onLinkedIn.
Let's go ahead and start theprogram first by talking about
Dreamforce and then just a quicklittle tease.
We're going to be talking aboutone of the very last slides of
the session that I presentedthere, which is around salary
negotiating.
How do you do it?
How do you get a leg up?
How do you succeed?
How do you know you did theright thing, like all that good
stuff?

(05:51):
So let's talk about FloridaDreaming Now.
Fred, you did a fan.
Oh, actually, you know.
I gotta say one other thingI've been a little bit late
getting the most recent podcastout, so I am very sorry Janet,
who's a wonderful guest, I thinktwo or three weeks ago and
that's going to be released inthe morning.
So if you're listening live,you can check that out.

(06:11):
All right, fred Kedena, tell usreal quick a little bit about
your Florida Dreaming sessionand how you felt overall the
event went.

Sure, I will certainly say the.
Overall, I think the event wasawesome.
I wish I had had the ability tostay longer.
I literally was the first slotright after the keynote.
So, like Jennifer Lee left thestage, they turned everything
into breakout rooms and then Iwas on, and after I left or

(06:43):
after I finished my presentation, I grabbed my sunglasses and
got in a car and went to theairport because I had to be in
San Diego for the rest of theweek.
So I'm very remiss to havemissed the rest of it, but I
have already registered forFlorida Dreaming next year.
I've already got my room andthe room blocks.
So if you haven't been, Ihighly encourage you to go.

Man, you're going to do her, but you just get it
done, don't you?
You're like I'm coming back.
This was awesome.

Where?
Do they want me or not?
Which it might be not, butthey're going to get me.

Well, I got to see you next year from Mike
Martin, so I think I'm goingback.
I think that's the plan.

I love it.
Well, the session was good.
We had a good turnout in theroom.
I had a good level ofengagement.
I was really pleased,especially that early in the
morning Not sure if the coffeekicked in but the session was
about AI and specifically how touse some of the AI tools that

(07:46):
are generally available, not somuch to make your users
experience better, but if youare an architect or an admin and
you're trying to build scalablebest practices, elegant
Salesforce solutions, how canyou use AI to help you with that
?
And I think it was a goodsession.
Of course, I'm the one thatdelivered it.
So, josh, you were in theaudience.

It was a success, fred.
I thought you did a fantasticjob.
Your slide deck skills areawesome, by the way and that you
even have enough time in yourlife to figure all of this stuff
out is beyond me, because Ilearned a ton.
By the way, guys, it's been ayear since GPT came out about

(08:27):
October, november last year, Ithink and in that year, I've
learned how to do some prompts,but I didn't know how it was
working.
I didn't know how it worked.
Why would I?
I'm your common user, and Fredbroke it down and he shared
massive insights on some verysimple things that you can do to
get massive results like reallygood results, better than most

(08:50):
results, better than most peopleresults by doing a few
different things with the AItechnology.
And I think one of the thingsthat I thought was really
fantastic because this is a guywho does his homework, he does
his research and one of thethings that I really liked was
breaking that you graded threedifferent ways of running AI.

(09:11):
Go ahead and share those threedifferent ways real quick if you
can, fred.

Yeah, absolutely so .
I wanted to keep it superaccessible so that really
anybody in the room, no matteryour level of admin skill or
technical skill, could take itand try it.

So he just thought of me, he geared it
towards me, he dumbed it down.
This is good.

No, it's not dumbing it down, but just made
it in excess.
So the first level wasbasically sign up for a
Chatspity account, do a littlebit of prompt engineering on the
front end and just ask youquestions.
Number two was to sign up for acommercially available chat bot
that has an AI engine anddownload a series of user guides

(09:57):
from Salesforce.
So the Salesforce still putsout believe it or not PDF user
guides for a lot of its productsin just those user guides into
that chat bot to train it andthen use that.
And then the third level, whichwas a little technical,
involved going to a repository,downloading a model directly

(10:22):
onto your computer, using thosesame PDF documents for training
and then inquiring on yourpersonal trained model on your
computer.
What kind of solutions youwould get.

Fred, you had me at repository.
That was probably the moment Ireally got hooked on the speech.

Well, you know, it sounds more complicated than it
really is.
So if anybody is interested,feel free reach out.
I'm happy to share the deck,happy to share the instructions.
There's instructions and all ofit.
But if you want to know how AImight help or at least adjust
and change your job as aSalesforce admin, as a

(11:05):
Salesforce developer architect,I encourage you to dig into AI,
whether you do it with mypresentation or if you do it on
your own, because it's coming.

Yeah, it's coming and it's here and it's going to
be a distinguishing advantage,or I guess I should say, if you
don't have it, it's going to bea severe disadvantage.
Right?
You remember when they made theinternet Suddenly?
There was a day when, if youdidn't know how to navigate on a
browser like you, weren't goingto get the job.
Well, that's not going to beany different here.

(11:36):
I mean, I can't see how itwould be any different.

Absolutely.
What's the cliche?
Ai is not going to take yourjob, but somebody that knows how
to use AI well is going to takeyour job.

Yeah, there you go.
Yeah, I like that.
That makes a lot of sense.
And we got to see Gil Martin,who's a live listener right now.
Great to see you, gil.
Got to meet some reallywonderful people.
I mean, I don't want to.
This is going to sound kind ofweird coming from me.
When I go to conferences, I'mactually, a fair amount of the
time, kind of shy, believe it ornot.

(12:06):
Right Like, I like to go make aquick round on the exhibition
floor and say hi to people.
I love catching up with thepeople that I know.
Do I make a massive effort togo shake hands with tons of
strangers?
I guess they're like an hourhere and an hour there.
Otherwise, I tend to keep tomyself and, gosh, if I'm doing a
speech, I'm usually justthinking about that or working

(12:28):
on that or trying to get somework done.
But this was a terrific event.
Probably about 500 people thereand I was introduced to some
really wonderful people and alot of listeners.
That's one of the things I loveabout this show.
I know some of you folks who areat Florida Dreaming or maybe
this might even be the firstpodcast that you're listening to
and you attended, possibly,fred's session.

(12:50):
Maybe you attended mine, and sowelcome if you're a first-time
listener.
We appreciate you coming here.
I'll also say you know, we justput these things on for free
because it's a lot of fun.
We want to help a lot of people, but you can help us too, and
the way that you can help us isby giving us a little bit of a
thumbs up or if the platformyou're on like Apple I think

(13:10):
allows you to provide a littlereview, so you can type a few
words in, let us know what youthink about the show, maybe what
you would change or what youwould add.
We'd love to hear from you andwe'd love to get those thumbs up
.
So make sure that you subscribe.
So what about overall?
What did you think about the?
I know that you had to leave alittle bit early, so I had about
another 24 hours in the programthan you did, but overall, how

(13:33):
did you feel about the event?

No, I think it was really great.
You know from, from even theday before the official kickoff,
a lot of people had alreadymade it down there.
You know, great networking,great opportunities to connect
with people in the community.
And then from the officialkickoff on Sunday, at the
opening reception, you know, allthe way through the time that I
was there I got to spend alittle bit of time on the floor,

(13:56):
some great sponsors and really,you know to.
You know the event is going tobe what you, what you make of it
.
So I definitely encourage, ifyou haven't been to one of the
community events you know, pickthe one that you can get to.
You know geographically, pickthe one you can get to based on
your calendar, their, theirphenomenal events.
And I'm the first one to admitI have been remiss in in the the

(14:22):
10 years Plus I've I've been inthe ecosystem that they've had
these events.
I've probably been to three orfour and but two of them were
this year and I'm I'm a convert,so you'll find me around next
year.

And I think you make a really good point here
too, which is, you know, attendthe event where people from your
region are going to go, and youcan go to others, but I would
prioritize the one that's nearyou, because you're going to
find that community right andmake friends.
I mean, gosh I don't see him onhere right now, but I got to

(14:57):
see a bunch of people fromFlorida and people who you know,
some some folks like who'vebeen on the boat, like Vanessa
you weren't able to come, butGabby was there and she came to
my my session, so it was greatto see her and a bunch of other
friends, people that you've seenin Tahoe or seen a dream force
and so on.
So pick a region that's closeto you and you'll make some
local friends, and I think it'sa really good idea.

(15:17):
And if you like sunshine andsand between your toes while
hanging out with a bunch ofSalesforce pros, then Florida
dreamer next year shoulddefinitely be on your bucket
list.
All right, let's go ahead anddive into the main topic.
So I'm the guest today, right,and what that means is I'm just
going to talk a little bit aboutnegotiating.
So the presentation that I gavewas called, or is called, was

(15:39):
called negotiating skills forSalesforce professionals, and I
got it.
I'll tell you this was.
This was easily the most funpresentation I've given.
I've been giving presentationsfor I don't even know how long
maybe 18 years, 19 years,something like that but this was
clearly the most fun, and Ithink part of why it was so fun

(16:01):
for me is because I'm sopassionate about it.
Right, I don't think.
I don't think that people areas open to learning about
negotiating as they should be.
There's a lot of.
There are numerous reasons whyyou want to get better at
negotiating.
One of them is just reducingfriction with the people that

(16:24):
you love and the people that youcare about, the people that you
work with, because good lookoftentimes and guys you know,
feel free to unmute and justpipe up here.
But I'm kind of curious, justfrom our little group here when
you think of negotiating or whenyou think of people that you
know that don't like negotiating, what do you think they think

(16:46):
about that topic?
I'm kind of curious what youguys think.

I mean, I hate negotiating but I always find it
interesting to hear how otherpeople tackle it.
But I think for me it's more ofa like yeah, that sounds great,
but the nerves is always goingto be kind of a blocker for.
And also, I think understandingmy own value has always been a

(17:14):
challenge.

Okay.

So that's a big thing.
So when you talk about nerves,are we talking about fear?

Yes.

And are we thinking fear of not getting
what we want or fear ofoffending someone?

Fear of offending somebody.
It's actually it's more aboutlike oh my God, I'm asking for
something like how dare me.

Right, right.
And so let me ask you this.
So when someone enters into anegotiating, a negotiation with
you, it could be about anything.
It could be like what movie areyou going to go watch that
night?
Right, and they are crystalclear and asked specifically for
the thing that they want Isthat offend you?

No, not at all, but I think it's also my
personality type is kind of apeople pleaser and so if they
tell me what they want, thenthat helps me understand how to
please them, whereas I feel likethe biggest kind of like hard
negotiation types like aretrying to win against me.

Yeah, yeah, and that it can definitely feel that
way, and a lot of times, peopleget real icky feelings when it
comes to negotiations, don'tthey?

Jonathan Fox (18:25):
It's so icky.

It's so icky.
So I'll just highlight a coupleof things.
I mean, these are things thatwere covered in the session, but
there are only 80 people here.
We usually get about 300 or 400listens on this show, right?
So you might as well share theknowledge, and I'm not going to
go into everything, but I beganthe session really talking about
some of the folks that we runinto that are trying to sell us

(18:48):
stuff, right?
So a telemarketer calls you atdinner time.
You're walking in the mallbecause you got to go buy a Lego
set for your nephew orsomething like that, and you get
accosted by someone who wantsto rub lotion all over your face
, and so you're a $200 quarterounce bottle, right.
Or you go into a car lot andlet's just say it's a used car
lot or it's a you know it's notBMW right, we're going to be

(19:13):
treated pretty smoothly.
But what are these like?
Guys who's walking up to you inthe plaid sport coat rubbing
their hands together.
So you know, if I share thoseimages with you, vanessa,
because you're a really greatcandidate for some of this
information what kind of feelingdoes that develop inside of you
?

I don't know.
I think everything just givesme fear.

So Okay, all right.
Well, what the audience sharedwith me was that it's you just
want to say no, you just want tobe like leave me alone, right,
go away.
Ooh, gap girl coming at me, Ijust want to.
You know like, I know what, Iknow what size my jeans are and
I don't buy my jeans a gap, butwhatever, I'm just a silly
example.
But you know, we all have thissort of feeling of and I don't

(20:00):
mean we all, but often and itdoes happen and once, once that
system, that defense system inour brains, is activated.
I mean, you know, changes ourchemistry, that changes our, you
know, our hormone level levelschange, the parts of our brain
that we're using, certain partsget activated, more primal

(20:21):
activations are occurring.
Our prefrontal cortex, which isour executive functioning, can
go offline when we're understress, we're under pressure,
we're under fear and we're justkind of in that no phase, right.
So I think the first thing thatwe really need to understand
about negotiating is that it'sour job to mitigate that fear,

(20:44):
mitigate those sensations in us,and the way to do it is to
reduce the fear in the otherperson.
What do you guys think aboutthat?
Does that make sense?
Hopefully, okay, because youknow I've been in sales since I
was 18 years old and I'm, youknow, more than double that now,
and I got to tell you it's like, you know, when you're doing

(21:06):
sales, you can still get thejitters.
Even if you've done it for 30years, you can still get the
jitters when you're selling itdoes happen.
It doesn't really happen thatmuch anymore, but like it can
still happen.
But for the people who areunfamiliar, the people who you
know, it's like oh God, I got tomake this sale or I can't pay
rent, like that kind of stuff.
You know you've got an or amanager, you're coming to a
manager, you're asking for a$20,000 raise, like all you're

(21:28):
saying is I want to take yousomething from you, and it's
going to hurt.
You're going to hurt If yougive me what I want.
Right, expect it to be a no, orat least the emotions that they
feel are going to be screamingat them, no, Right.
And so what we need to do is weneed to calm their fears down,

(21:49):
and that means we need to talkto them in a certain way, we
need to be listening in acertain way and, again, I'm not
going to go into all this detail, but I think that without this
kind of a baseline understandingof what we're missing out by
having a lack of understandingof negotiations, we are really
putting ourselves at adisadvantage, and more than that
, for those people pleasers inthe world, like the wonderful

(22:09):
Vanessa Grant.
You are not going tonecessarily please so many
people when you can't negotiateRight, because what happens when
we under negotiate is we areprime candidates for resentment.
So I'm looking at the audiencehere.
I'd love to see you knoweveryone throw up like a little
purple heart or something, ifyou feel like you have ever had

(22:32):
resentment towards a company ortowards a manager or a boss,
simply because you said yes tosomething that you didn't want
to say yes to.
But for whatever reason,whether you know internally, you
felt compelled to say yes oryou felt like it was in your
position to push back.
So I'm seeing yeah, heart,heart.
Okay, a few liars out there.

(22:52):
Okay, some real people?
Okay, all right.
So this is a.
Oh, we've got a big green heartfrom Ty.
Thanks, buddy, all right.
So what's it like when we resentsomeone?
How fun is that for them, howpleased are they, right?
And then you got to have thetalk.
Jordan Peterson talks aboutthis in I think it's his second

(23:14):
book or third book and it's Ithink the chapter is titled have
the Damn Fight.
You just got to have the damnfight, but you got to get it out
.
But you can prevent having tohave those fights by being
really clear about what yourintentions are, what your
motivations are, and makingsomeone feel like it's really
safe.
We talk about safe, feelingsafe in this world all the time.

(23:35):
Now, right In this fragile,fragile, you know world that
we've been in the last fiveyears and it's.
I mean, I don't know about youguys, but I think it sucks.
I don't like the fragility ofthe average person or the
average college student or theaverage you know Gen X or what
not Gen X or what is it?
Z?
What do they even call that?

(23:55):
Help me here.
No, no, no after them.

I think it's.

Gen Z?
Yeah, gen Z, there you go, isit Z?
Yeah?
So there's a lot of fragilityout there, and so do we want to
negotiate with fragile people?
No, not really.
But can we?
We can if we make them feelsafe.
Right?
I'm not calling all Gen Zersfragile, by the way, guys, so

(24:24):
don't get all weird.
But just having been on thisplanet for over half a century,
I could tell you that, you know,attitudes change.
It happens regionally, but ithappens, you know, in time as
well, and so we see a lot moreof it nowadays.
So this is all sort of this longbuildup.
We've been talking for 20minutes, not 25 minutes, about
this stuff.
It's like okay, josh, you didthis last time, can we just talk

(24:46):
about how to negotiate salary?
And I'll tell you right now weare, that's exactly what we're
talking about.
Right One, you must getexperience with negotiation.
So I'm going to just give you areal shortcut here, and that is
go get the book by Chris Vosscalled Never Split the
Difference, and there's a fewthings in my presentation that I
shared that are directly fromhim, because to date, given all

(25:09):
the books on sales andnegotiations that I've read, I
haven't read a more compelling,succinct book on the subject
with true modern knowledge thattruly debunks a lot of classical
tactics in negotiation, likegetting you got to get five

(25:30):
yeses.
You know, like you know, if Icould show you how to do this,
would you be interested in that?
Is that something you'd beinterested in?
What if I could do this?
What if I could do that?
You'd like that, wouldn't you?
Yes, you know, thinking thatthat's going to lead to a yes
through some sort of weird trick.
And he talks a lot about tryingto get to know.
You know, if you get to knownow, you know where the wall is
so you can pull it down, and I'ma big fan of that.

(25:50):
I think that makes sense.
So let's go ahead and dive inwith just some very basic,
simple things that you can do Ifyou want to renegotiate your
salary or if you are in anegotiation for a job offer.
Who wants to talk about whatfirst?
Let me see Vanessa, fred, peter.
What do you guys think?
What do you want to cover first?
Wow, it's like.

(26:13):
It's like everyone went to thebathroom or something.

Okay, okay, so no , no, no, sorry.

I mean, on one hand , I'm definitely with Vanessa in
that I don't like it.
It's, you know, I'm not good ateverything and that's something
that I've been able to sayrecently, right after many years
.
But when we talk about, youknow, negotiating salary, it
just brings anxiety because Ithink, you know, when I was in

(26:45):
high school and not learning anyof these things, you know not
any of the basics it basicallyset me up to fail for, you know,
the first decade, because Ijust expected, you know, more
money, whereas you know, when Iworked at Salesforce, we were
doing classes at my own actuallyit's my old elementary school
and did a course that was allabout financial planning.

(27:09):
I mean some of the basics,right, mortgages and guess what,
you know, a salary negotiation,and you know I kind of shed a
tear.
So, anyway it's, it's just aninteresting topic.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure where to start.

No, no, that's good, peter, and thanks for the
background.
I mean it is.
We all have a different feelingaround negotiations, and people
who've listened to this show orwent to the session, they
already know a little bit abouthow I came up.
I mean, my dad was abusinessman.
He was in sales.
I'd go around with him, Iwatched how he worked, right.
He sent me to a negotiatingseminar when I was 18.

(27:44):
That was my birthday present.
I learned a lot in those twodays and saved me literally
hundreds of thousands of dollarssince then, just from two days
down.
We don't have this time hereright now.
So we're just this is reallyjust about salary, but without
covering some of these realbasics, it's it's going to be a
loss.
So let's talk about tone.
Okay, so what's the generaltone that we think we should

(28:04):
have when we're in a negotiation?
And I'm just going to like uh,doggie or that for a second and
just say most people, when theythink of negotiations, think of
price haggling.
Who here thinks of hagglingwhen they think of negotiations?
You know, by a show of handsyou do.
Okay, yes, cause haggling islike well, I'll give you two
fifths.
Well, I want 125, you know, no,I'll give you 125.

(28:25):
I was like, well, I'll do 200.
I'll do 150.
It's like this is nonsense.
Okay, we're not talking aboutprice haggling.
We're trying to get someone tobe calm.
We're trying to get them to getto a place where they can
actually understand some of ourlogic but truly actually appeal
to their emotions.
You know, most people aremaking decisions based on wiring

(28:47):
, right?
They're wired to feel a certainway when certain things happen.
That's how we work, right, fred?
Earlier you were talking abouta little bit about um, ai and
machine learning, right?
How it can learn.
Well, that's what we do.
And what does it do, fred?
It picks up patterns.

Yeah, it's a pattern, a pattern matching
engine for sure.

It's a pattern matching engine.
So anybody here who has itturned on on their phone and you
start texting, right, and allof a sudden it's like you type
in T, o and it pops up the wordtomorrow, right, because that's
the you know statistically,that's the word that you're
going to click next.
Okay, so we're no different.
And so when we get intonegotiations, we we are
perceiving a certain pattern andwe need to kind of disrupt that

(29:29):
pattern and get people to calmdown and feel safe and feel feel
happy.
So we can start by doing thatone with our tone, right?
So, hey, vanessa, if you and Iare going to talk a little bit
today about, um, my compensationand, by the way, you've been a
fantastic boss we're going totalk about, uh, you know, thanks
for having this meeting with me, but my tone is going to be a
little bit like this.
It's going to be a little bitup, right, it's going to be

(29:51):
friendly, it's going to beplayful, it's not going to be.
Vanessa.
We're going to have a talktoday and I want to.
You know, I need to raise andthat's final right that
assertive communication style isso rare in effective
negotiations that you shouldn'teven think about it.
Okay, you should just nevereven think about this stuff,
right?
It's so rare once in a while,now and then we have to use a

(30:15):
different kind of voice.
You guys hear me do this voicesometimes on the show, but we
have to.
We have to kind of go from this, you know, up talk like, hey,
how are you guys doing what'sgoing on?
Welcome to the show.
But right, that's the tone.
It's going up.
It's called an up inflection,right, versus a downward
inflection, a downwardinflection, right.

(30:36):
So do you follow me like thisdownward talk, go ahead.

I definitely don't have the downward
inflection, but I feel likewhenever it comes to a salary
negotiation, usually it's thembringing it up first or you know
, either at like an annualmeeting or, if you know,
recently like negotiatingsalaries with a with an
interpreter, because I don't getthe serious like okay, we're

(31:02):
going to have a heavy talk aboutthis, but I I go into, oh, I
don't know, you know it's, itcould be, this is kind of what.
Where I'm at right now.
Oh God, I hate this stuff LikeI.
For some reason, mysubconscious just turns into
like stream of you know wordvomit of yeah, word vomit.

So I was going to cut you off.
Keep going.

No, no, no, that's that, that's it.
I almost have the oppositeproblem of like, where I can
sound confident in my interviews, but as soon as you talk money
like, I sound like a, like alamb like a lamb, okay.

So look, this is just a matter of one not having
done enough thinking about it.
I think this is about research,right?
Truly, research, I mean stepone, with all negotiations, and
I know this is a really looseformat that we're talking right
now, but we have to begin withresearch, right?
What do we want?

(31:55):
Why do we want it?
Why do we want it now?
You know it sounds like a chantat some protest what do we want
Raises, you know, like nobodyresponds well to that.
So you've got to do yourresearch.
So let's say, I know you've gotthis brand new job, okay.
But let's say you stayed withyour old job and your boss came
to you and you maybe, maybe youknew that they were going to

(32:16):
come and talk to you aboutcompensation.
And, by the way, if they do,they say, hey, I'd like to have
a meeting with you and starttalking about compensation Right
Now.
They, they sit you down andthey say we're going to talk
about that right now.
You know, and say, well, that'sgreat, you know, I'm happy to
have a conversation with you.
And then what you want to do isget them to talk as much as
possible so you can see whatthey're thinking, what they're

(32:39):
coming up with, right, get themto solve the problem for you,
right, so you can really pushthat off.
So let's you want to role playVanessa, you want to just give
it a go.

See what that might sound like.
That's it.
My lizard brain is going tocome out, but sure, let's do it.

Well, here's the deal.
I'm going to make it easy,because you're going to be the
boss.

Okay.

Okay, guys, we haven't planned this, so we
don't know what the hell's goingto happen.

I'm also bad at this too.
I'm you know.
I'm like, oh sweet, you wantmore of the company's money.
That's not a problem, that'snot great.

Maybe we should have Fred do this.
Fred, you want to do it?
Sure, I'd be happy to do it.
Okay, fred.
So you're coming to me.
Let's say I'm making 120.
I'm a Salesforce consultant.
Okay, I've been there for twoyears, I haven't had a raise.
And you want to make me anoffer, and it's going to be an
okay offer, but it's not goingto be a great offer.

(33:29):
Okay, so let's go ahead and dothat.
So go ahead and talk.

Hey, Josh, just that annual review time.
I wanted to make sure we said alittle bit of time to sign up
to have the conversation, Reallyappreciate the contributions
you've made to the team.
I think you've grown at thelevel that we've expected you to
for the year and just reallythink that moving you from 120
to 125 is a great move for you.

(33:55):
So you'll see that in a coupleof weeks and if you have any
questions, let me know.

Okay, well, fred, thank you for bringing this up.
I mean, I never say no to moremoney, right?
Absolutely.
Why would you?
Why would anybody?
Yeah, and I really appreciateyou bringing this.
It sounds like this issomething you've been thinking
about for a little while.

Absolutely.
I mean, I think that I reallyenjoyed having you as part of
the team for the last year.
You've become, in the last fewmonths, great contributor,
stepping in making contributions, and I just want to make sure
you feel valued as part of theteam.

Well, let me just say thank you so much.
I like it's very gracious ofyou because I know I didn't come
to you asking for a raise butyou brought it up and that
really tells me that you careabout my career.
I know you've been tracking itand I can't thank you enough for
making this an important topicfor you.
I'm sure you'd understand, likemost important topics, they

(35:02):
probably require a little bit ofthought from the other person,
because this is kind of news tome, right?

Well, I am absolutely.
Did you have?
Have you put some thought intoit as well?

You know what, Now that you mention it, I have.
I mean, who doesn't right?

Jason Zeikowitz (35:22):
Mm-hmm, yeah, so it's that time of year.

It's that time of year.
Look, when we get to Christmas,we're all trying to figure out
how we're going to pay for allthose presents, right?
So again, thank you for theoffer, right?
Just out of curiosity, how didI think it sounds about a three
and a half four percent raise?
How did you come up with thatnumber?

Yeah, absolutely, you know, I was definitely
looking at some information onthe levels of contribution
across the team.
You know, obviously we have abudget, you know, for the entire
department and I just wanted togive you a number that I
thought was reflective of thecontributions you've been making

(36:05):
over the course of the year.

Okay, well, again , thanks, fred.
You know some of thoseaccomplishments.
I'm kind of curious which onesdo you feel were most impactful
in this past year?

Sure, absolutely.
I think you know you definitely.
You know, being on the team fora year, I think you showed a
lot of eagerness in your firstfew months and asking out of
good questions, speaking intowhat decisions we made on the
platform and why we, you know,made certain architectural and

(36:39):
design decisions that we did Inthe latter half of the year.
And I'll say I specificallyremember all the effort you put
in during the last release cycleto go through the release notes
and bring out three or fourdifferent things that could
really help us reduce ourtechnical debt.
So you know, just seeing thatinitiative, that eagerness, were

(37:01):
big parts of what I had in mymind when I put that number
together.

Gosh, you're going to have to write my resume
for me because you're sayingsome really awesome stuff.
Now, guys, I'm just going to doa mini timeout and talk about
what's happening here.
Who wants to share what theythink is happening?
I'm kind of curious, peter.
What do you think is happeningin this conversation right now?

It's funny you asked me that you both did a
great job.

We're still going by the way.

Yeah, you know, just take a break.
It feels like it's like, in away, kind of bouncing all around
.
I mean, I know it's just kindof made up or whatever, right,
but you're both sort of peelingback the layers and from my side
it feels like it's getting moreuncomfortable.

I am so uncomfortable in this
conversation Are you.

Okay, then you know what I agree with Vanessa.
Then it's a conversation weshould be having.

Yeah, yeah, just from both sides, because it's
almost like it sounds like I canhear Fred trying to explain his
rationale and I hear you.
I can almost feel like thesubtext on both sides, which is
just like take the damn raiseand be happy about it.
Then the other side I don'twant to take the damn raise and

(38:20):
be happy about it.
I'm just so uncomfortable.

I am definitely trying to send that subtext
message.
I didn't ask Josh how much of ahard ass he wanted me to be in
the roleplay, but he'sdefinitely doing a great job.
Obviously, I offered a raise.
I offered it in the context ofcontributions.
Now he's trying to nail me downto say what those contributions

(38:45):
are, so he can come back aroundand say well, if you really
value those things, then 3percent isn't really reflective
of what I've done.
Yeah, that's right.
Exactly what Josh is doing.
It's phenomenal.

Yeah, but, fred, am I making you uncomfortable?

No, You're not making me uncomfortable.
I mean, I think and again thisgoes back, I think a lot of
times people anticipate thesetypes of conversations, at least
on the management side, andkeep a little back.
That's part of my managing thesituation.

(39:26):
I offer it up, I know there'sgoing to be a back and forth,
and so I have something inreserve to come back around and
say well, actually, let's makeit 130 or whatever that number
ends up being.

Yeah, Exactly Now .
Thank you, Fred.
I think you're doing a greatjob, by the way, because I think
you're hitting really the rightlevel.
This happens all the time.
Guys, we're going to offer youthis.
You're doing amazing, so we'regoing to give you five grand.
I'm thinking F you.
Thanks for the 3.5 percent.
9 percent interest.
Cost of living has gone up 8percent this year.

Yeah, are you seeing milk?

Yeah.

I can't even buy milk on that.

Yeah, you can't even buy milk.
I mean, god, do you know howmuch Bugatti's are going for?
Now?
This five grand is not going tohelp, right?
So Fred is trying to make thisshort.
It's a bullying tactic One.
What did he do?
He caught me by surprise.
So now I'm unprepared.
That's what we were talkingabout with you, vanessa, right?
So if someone catches you offguard, great.

(40:24):
Now you're not prepared.
You haven't done your research.
This is why you got to do yourresearch and know your value all
the time.
The other thing that I've doneis I've just said thank you and
been gracious with every time hesays something nice about me.
Right, I haven't tried tobutter him up.
I haven't said you're the mostamazing boss.
I didn't kiss his ass.
I'm holding my ground here.

(40:45):
Right, it's not going both ways.
The next thing that's happeningis I'm asking him how or what
questions, and how or whatquestions are open-ended?
They don't.
Sometimes I'll say somethingand I'll say blah, blah, blah,
blah, right, and I'll go yeah,okay, so that's a closed-ended
question.
That leads.
Now you're controlling theconversation, kind of whipping
him around, but when I'm askinghow or what he's going to answer

(41:08):
and I don't know what's in hishead, right, yeah, I mean he
could have said anything he said.
He could have said I'd give you30 grand if I could, but the
CEO is being a hard ass.
Like he could have saidanything, right, and I don't.
But I don't know what it is, soI don't know what I'm dealing
with.
This is like a hidden enemy.
Now, when you're in anegotiation, it's not an enemy.

(41:29):
Sometimes it is actually,truthfully, it is sometimes an
enemy.
But in a work situation, look,it's just two people that are
trying to come to terms on anagreement, right, both have a
slightly different perspectiveand they want to come to an
agreement where they're bothhappy.
Now, I don't really care ifboth people are happy, I just
want you guys to be happy, Right, like, that's how it works.

(41:51):
You have to get paid the rightamount.
If he says, yeah, I'm going togive you a raise to $200,000.
And I'm looking at the marketand seeing the market start to
tank a little bit, like, I feellike, are you sure you want to
pay me that much?
Because I don't want to be theone who's going to get axed
first.
I was at a boat show thisweekend and sitting down with a
guy who's been with Salesforcefor over 10 years and he's in

(42:12):
enterprise sales, and I mean hewas talking about the cuts that
were made from December throughthe spring at Salesforce and a
lot of it was like you live inthis region, you're getting paid
this much, you're gone Right.
So I want to be careful of that.
Getting paid the right amountis what's important.
Now I happen to believe in thisconversation 125 is not the
right amount, right.

(42:33):
But I'm not trying to benegative, I'm not trying to push
back, I'm just trying to gethim to keep talking and sharing
more and more and more.
So now I know he's brought uphow I did this cool architect
thing, how I'm really eager.
What else did he say?
I don't even remember.
Apparently, I'm a pretty darngood consultant, though.

You're a pretty good, darn good.

Thanks.
Very good consultant.
Thanks Fred.

I just want to like riff, honestly.
You said for a second you don'tknow what's in my head.
That's true, but you shouldcome in with some little work's
documentation of what should bein my head, right?
Yeah, if you knew that.
You know, last quarter youcompletely blew a deployment and
overwrote a bunch of data andcause you know, 20 hours of

(43:15):
outage.
You know, know that that's inthere too, right?
Or you should have your.
Here's the stuff that I did,that I that I can lean back on
If I don't bring up and it's notat this point in the
conversation, but if I don'tbring up that cool thing you did
with the release notes.
You should have that ready.
Yes, all the time.

All the time that slide 17 on my presentation.

It's taking the bullets out of the gun, guys you
know who, dr Searad, sorry, Iwas just going to say you know
who does this phenomenally well,oddly enough, salesforce.
So we all heard or know aboutyou know this V2 mom.
Right, it's kind of it's stillthere but it's not being talked

(43:59):
about as much.
I was on the fan of it when itwas introduced to me.
I was like, oh, whatever, youknow kind of have to plan for I
mean, I'm working marketing andproduct marketing.
So it's what are?
You know what are my metricsgoing to be?
Anyway, fast forward to, youknow, my first review, and you
know you work on it throughoutthe year you have, you know you
spend time with your manager Iforget it was like a month on a

(44:22):
monthly basis, not that muchtime, and it's, you know, not
really an awkward meeting.
It's going to just checking upand updating metrics and what.
Anyway, the first review wasquite simple because it was all
there, right, and nobody couldargue.
All the data was there.
It just came down tonegotiating.

(44:43):
Essentially, I mean very littleroom to negotiate because I'm
going to crush it and I got mybonus.
But the V2 mom or a foundationwould address exactly what Fred
was just talking about.
Yeah, and they right, that'strue.

Yeah, so you know , you guys both bring up a
really good point.
This is the reason why we haveto do research.
Well, what does Fred reallywant?
Right, like I know that Fred isgutting for a promotion.
Maybe I know that.
Right, maybe I know that of theyou know seven people under him
, he lost three people this year.
Right, like I could know thatthat might be something that he

(45:23):
has high turnover in hisdivision.
Why is that?
Right, because these things canbe used as leverage.
It's called getting leverageRight.
You can move a lot of weight ifyou've got a long enough stick,
right, and so this is justgetting a longer stick by doing
our research.
Let's jump right back into it.
Okay, Fred, and I just want torecap again how and what I'm

(45:44):
getting Fred to talk, right,okay, so now I'm going to give a
little bit of a pushback.
Okay, you guys ready?

You ready.

Fred, you okay, we're good, okay, alright.
And I don't even really remember.
You know what I said, you knowhow'd you come up with that, or,
like, you know what were thethings that stood out, or
whatever it's like okay.
So I don't really rememberwhere we picked that, where we
dropped off, but I'll just say,fred, I have to tell you again,
thank you for offering me well,thanks for offering me a raise.

(46:18):
I mean, I think that's terrific.
You were right too.
It is something that I havebeen thinking about, and not
just a little bit, fred.
I've been thinking about it alot, Right, we both know I've
been here two years, and I was,wasn't I green?
Right, when I came on, you were,you definitely were, yeah, and
so there's, there's this I havethis sense of loyalty to you, to

(46:41):
the company, to my peers, tothe ones that are still here.
Anyway, you know, I have a lotof loyalty to all of these folks
, and because you gave me abreak and I've learned, I've
learned a ton.
There's something else I know,though, too, which is that when,
when you come in and you'resort of green, like I was,
sometimes it's hard for peopleto look at you like, you know,

(47:04):
in the same way that people atother companies might look at me
.
Right, they might look at meand say, oh, you had five years
as a BA at this one company andtwo years as a consultant here,
and then the value for them.
I mean, if I'm I'll speakcandidly, fred I've done some
research and people with mylevel of experience,
certifications, skill set andeven with some of the blunders

(47:28):
that I made early on in mycareer that hopefully I've
rectified and you feel, I thinkthat you probably feel they've
been rectified, or you probablywouldn't be offering me a raise
today, but the research that I,that I found, shows that I
should.
You know, someone in my positionnow I'm not saying I should get
right, I'm not saying thatsomeone in my role, you know, on
the open market, is in that 140to 150 range and you know,

(47:52):
while I appreciate a 5k, youknow, addition to my salary,
that's barely keeping up withcost of living, right?
So it doesn't really feel likea raise and I, you know I say
that like with as muchgraciousness as I can, but

(48:12):
you've brought up a prettyimportant topic and you've kind
of sprung it on me and I know,you know, that you did right,
fred, right.

Well, I know, I guess at the time of year we all
know when annual reviews comearound, but we didn't schedule
it in advance, for sure.

Right.
So this is kind of new to me,and so I definitely don't want
to ever sound like I'm notgrateful for the role, for the
job, or question my commitmentand my loyalty to you and to the
company.
But what I want to do is youknow, you just said how you
described that I was eager andman I am.
So let me ask you this whatwould it take?

(48:50):
You know what sort of thingsare, you know, describe what I
would need to have done to haveearned a raise beyond cost of
living increase.

You know that's a that's a fantastic question and
I think that, first, Iappreciate the research that you
did.
I'd love to look at some ofthat and just kind of see where
the where the benchmarks arearound experience, because I'm
totally open to looking at thattype of information.

(49:23):
I think there's a couple ofthings to come to mind for me
that we could potentially put ona plan to get you to where you
want to be.
One is, as you know, we'verecently signed an agreement
with Salesforce to bring on somenew service cloud voice
features.
Voice features yeah Right, soyou know there's going to be

(49:48):
some specific training aroundthat.
If you wanted to step up forcertification and get some of
those service cloud voicecertifications, that would be
one thing.
Another thing that I want to goback and look a little bit at
your throughput.
But you're not exactly on theleader chart on the number of

(50:10):
story points.
You get done sprint over sprintand so, just looking at
productivity output, I love theeagerness, I love how you're
attacking some problems, but youknow, just from a story points
delivery perspective, I'd liketo see you consistently towards
the top.

Okay, and so how much close, like?
So where do I stand there?
And how much closer to the topare you talking about?

You know, I think you're kind of right, usually in
the middle.
You had a couple of sprintswhere you were definitely, you
know, on the lagging side.
I mean I think if you were, youknow top 25% consistently and
could help out with the newproducts.
I think you know somethingcloser to that 140 number would
definitely be in line.

Well, thank you, that's great.
That's great to hear.
I'm kind of so.
I'm looking at the same numbersthat you are.
I just pulled them up on myphone here and I'm kind of
curious when you looked at thatsort of where I fall, was that
over the last two years, overthe last 12 months or over the
last six months?
Because you know I'm lookinghere and it shows that I'm in
the top 25% for my work for thelast six months.

(51:20):
Are you seeing those samenumbers?

Oh yeah, I will refresh what I'm looking at.
I definitely looked.
Since this is an annual review,I looked over the course of the
entire year.
But you know, we can definitelylook and see where that trend
line is and I will reexamine.
And if you've been consistentlyacross the 25% threshold for

(51:47):
the last six months, we couldprobably do something in the
shorter timeframe.

Fred, you're my hero, buddy.
Thank you so much For real.
No, I appreciate it because Iwant you to know like when I say
I'm loyal to you, you know Iget calls all the time, right,
who doesn't?
Everyone who's good in thisecosystem is getting tons of
calls.
Some dude named Josh Matthewsgave me a buzz.
I don't know if you know thatkind of, but I told him to piss
off.

You want to say it when you come back, guys?
I don't know.
I don't know I don't know, Idon't know, I don't know.
That's a little sus.

All right, that was awesome, fred.
So, guys, look this.
What I loved about this littleexchange here is Fred was
pulling out numbers I didn'thave access to, right.
So what did I?
So you've got to be prepared.
You better know your numbers,man.
And if you're going to go andask for a raise, you better know
your numbers.
You better know what bulletsthey're going to fire at you.
I talk about take the bulletsout of the gun, and what I'm

(52:37):
referring to is take the bulletsout of their gun so they don't
shoot you with it first.
Right, the appropriate thing.
Had I known this information,if it wasn't a spur of the
moment role play, I could havecome to Fred and said Fred, I
know we're going to talk aboutcompensation and I just want to
get it out on the table rightnow that, frankly, I wanted to

(52:58):
apologize because I was realaverage the first six months of
this year.
No excuses, I mean, you knowwhat was going on in my life,
but no excuses.
But I want you to know that Imade a concerted effort to
increase those and if we look atthose numbers, I think that
you're going to see a realhockey stick improvement in

(53:19):
those numbers right Now, if Isay that, fred, can you use that
against me?

Not really.
You've kind of taken the windout of my sails.

Yeah.
So here goes his silver bullet.
Right, he doesn't just get tobe like well, your performance
number.
So here's your measly three anda half grand, five grand,
whatever it is.
So this was kind of fun.
What else did what else?
I'm kind of curious.
In the audience, anybody whowants to be a speaker?
I see Jonathan here.
Great to see you, buddy.
I love it when we get a badassgolden hoodie on our show.
Jonathan Fox, Jonathan Fox,everybody, jonathan Fox.

(53:50):
All right, I'll invite you tospeak if you'd like to
contribute here today.
So what else happened here?
I never said no, did I?

You did not.

No, it sounded like a no.
You didn't.
You never said no, Never saidno.
I never sounded like.
You know like, too, put back onmy heels a little bit like well
, how'd you come up with that?
You know like, just curious,genuinely curious.
By the way, guys, I would haverehearsed this if I thought Fred
was going to, you know, begiving me an offer to do it.

Dude, I'm so glad it was Fred and not me.
My management style and Fred'sare very different.

Fred's got a great management style right,
like I'll tell you.
I think that you know Fred andI sitting across a real
negotiation I don't know howwell I do this guy is very
successful, so I'm not sure howwell I do but I'm really glad he
got to be here on stage today.
Thanks, fred, for that.
I'm kind of curious if there'sanything that you saw that you
think gosh, josh could have saidthis better or this would have

(54:57):
moved me more.
This was a tactic I was usingon him.
Can you break it down at all alittle bit more?

Yeah, no, I think you called out a lot of the
stuff.
It's one of those things thatwith all made up facts, it's
hard to point to.
Oh well, I would have gone here, I would have gone there,
because whatever it is wouldjust kind of be made up.
But I really loved the tactthat you took, you know keeping
me going, you know anchoring meupfront to talking about the

(55:28):
positive things I saw on youpushing.
I love the reference back toresearch.
I might have and again, it'sall made up stuff I might have
done more of a specificreference.
Like you know, I looked at theXYZ benchmark report, I looked

(55:48):
at the whatever you know, justto kind of disarm me from saying
, well, I've got my research,because I've definitely had
conversations like that over mycareer.
But you know, I think it wasgood, I think the tact was
phenomenal.
I will say this and I negotiatea lot.

(56:09):
Nothing I like better thannegotiating with somebody that
also negotiates a lot.
It makes it, you know, it makesthe conversation a lot more
interesting, a lot cleaner.
You can kind of get to whereyou want to get a lot faster.
That's true.
So, the one thing I was going toask is I think you use the

(56:32):
example early on with Vanessalike, oh, you know you want to
negotiate what move you're goingto go to, the stakes are low,
right, you know what are you at.
You know 16 bucks for a ticketand a buck at a popcorn.
Yeah, I think a lot of peoplewhere they get hung up is the
stakes are higher, you know,especially if you're in a

(56:52):
situation where there's a jobyou really want, you're excited
for it, you're miserable whereyou are.
You kind of come from thisspace of scarcity and I think it
puts a lot of people atdisadvantage to really like go
for what they think they want.
And the other thing I'd love tohear your thoughts on is just

(57:13):
like you've got to start anegotiation, which conversation?
Number one, because the companyis, you know, the first time
the recruiter reaches out to youor the first time you reach out
to them, they're alreadykeeping notes, kind of anchoring
you to a range that they wantto get you to.
Just two things I'll throw outthere.

No, those are great points and you're right.
So I'm just going to talk aboutthe last part first, which is,
yeah, like a surprise annualreview.
By the way, steven Gregor,amazing director of recruiting
for Salesforce staff in LLC, hadhis annual review today.
Boy, was this guy prepared,like really prepared, okay, like

(57:54):
super prepared, smart guy.
And so you know, annual review,all that stuff like timely,
like we just had thisconversation, what was it,
steven?
Three hours ago, I think, fourhours, four hours ago, something
like that.
So people should know whentheir annual review is.
And if you don't know when itis, you should ask them or
when's your six month review?
You just go up and be like, hey, when's my six month review?
Oh, we don't do six monthreviews.

(58:16):
And then you just go what, howdo you know how I'm doing?
You can laugh about it.
Let's get Jonathan Fox up here.
Hey, jonathan.

Jonathan Fox (58:29):
Hey, I mean thank you first of all for inviting me
to come on to the microphone.
I've been loving theconversation so far.
One thing that I think wasreally cool in your role play
was that and it's from bothsides as well, you know because
there are times where you'regoing to be the one on the other
side of the fence offering the,you know, the pay rise or,

(58:52):
unfortunately, having to deliverthe bad news.
But what both of both you didreally well was remained
respectful, and I think that'sreally important, because as
soon as you lose that respect inthe conversation, you lose the
battle, you lose theconversation straight away,
absolutely.
But another point as well isrespect can still be maintained

(59:15):
whilst showing emotion, becauseultimately, this is your life,
this is your pay packet that youtake home and it affects your
life, you know, going forward,this is how you pay for your
living.
So there's nothing wrong withshowing emotion and having
emotion as well.
Both you know showing thatyou're disappointed or showing
that you're actually reallyhappy with what you've been

(59:36):
offered, and you can showemotion but still remain
respectful as well.
I think that's quite animportant thing to bear in mind.

Oh, it's critical , jonathan, thanks for making
that important point.
Absolutely, you still get to beyourself.
You get to be disappointed.
Right Now, remaining relativelystoic is important.
You use emotion that's in yourcontrol to move the conversation
and move the feelings of theother person in a certain way.

(01:00:05):
Like, how hard would it be in anegotiation for me to make
Vanessa feel like shit, right,like pretty easy, pretty easy
because she wants to make peoplehappy.
And you're making this, vanessa, I hope I have never, ever made
you feel that way.
She just did a sad face, likeit would be easy, right, it

(01:00:27):
would be easy, right.
But that feeling like now thatonly you can really only get
hurt by people that way whenthey're really close to you,
right, it's got to be aboutbusiness.
This is business.
I'm not saying fake tears,don't do that.
I'm definitely.
How do I put this?
I think that you're right,jonathan.

(01:00:50):
People need to show emotion andit's okay and it's important to
remain respectful.
You'll notice, fred neverinterrupted me once.
I never interrupted Fred once.
Right, both of us want to giveenough room and space for the
other person to talk If we getupset, if we get frantic, if we

(01:01:10):
get all up in our head if westart to like lose our cool.
There's a little trick, okay,it's called breathing, and you
just need to take a real slow,long, deep breath through your
nose, and it's okay to hold itright.
It's okay to take deep breathsin front of someone.
There's nothing embarrassingabout it.
You just go wow, thank you, orwow, that number is surprising.

Vanessa Grant (01:01:45):
You can say that that's a very though like a huge
deep breath, and then you gowith that number, like, is that
key map?

Fred Cadena (01:01:59):
It was a little James Earl Jones-ish, okay, okay
.

Josh Matthews (01:02:02):
Fair enough, right, it wouldn't be like that.
But I mean, again, 80% of yourconversations should be in this
tone right now.
This one, right, fred and I.
Fred's tone kind of was likeserious, so what?
My tone wasn't all bubbly, wasit?
Because that's going toconflict, right, but it wasn't
low.
I was like, hey, thank you.
Oh, that's so gracious, right,I was still.
Just, I was trying to be justslightly more upbeat than Fred

(01:02:27):
in the conversation.
If I'm too upbeat, I can't pullhim up with me, right, and by
the end, look, everything that Iwanted to happen at the end
happened, which is, I wanted tonot say yes and not say no and
get him to try and talk himselfinto as much as possible going

(01:02:47):
back and reviewing these numbersagain.
Right, he knew it was thissucks, I might say yes, but this
sucks, I'm not going to andmaybe I won't be here forever.
Is that the feeling you got,fred?

Yeah, it's definitely you kind of put me
soft on notice that you'reattentive to your career, that
you're paying attention towhat's going out there and that
you know, if I don't make youfeel like you're getting
rewarded in every waychallenging work as well as
compensation you know I may haveanother backfield to look for.

There you go, exactly so, mission accomplished
.
Right Was an agreement made.

No, no, no.
I mean, you know, I put somethings out there that maybe we
could hit this, maybe we couldhit that, but no, no hard
agreement.

No, no hard agreement.
But Fred committed to doingsomething.
I committed to doing nothing.
I didn't commit to anything,did I?
I didn't even commit to workinghard.
You did not.
I didn't commit to any of thatstuff.
Right Now, maybe I should havethis was a longer show or a
longer program, then maybe Iwould have said Fred, I'll tell

(01:04:00):
you what.
Thank you.
If you review that, if thenumbers look like the numbers I
just talked about, right, and ifyou're believing my tone and
voice and you're believing thethings that I'm telling you
right now, I'm telling you, myfriend, you know, you may I
think you made a great hire andI know I was green man, I was
right, like a little leprechaun.

(01:04:20):
But I'm telling you, man, I'mgoing to bust my ass for you.
If you can help me out withthis, if you can help me get a
raise that feels appropriate tothe level of work and expertise
that I have right now, I promiseyou you'll, like, I'm going to
be your best guy and I won't letyou down.
Okay, and that's reallyimportant to do that, by the way
, guys, and here's the thing,and again it's all.

The scenario wasn't well defined up front.
We don't know if I had actualdecision making authority or if
I'm just kind of, you know,taking up a budget number that I
was given and doing what I'mdoing with it and I have to take
it up the chain.
But I might have.
If I were in Josh's positionwhen I had said, hey, you know,

(01:05:02):
there's the certification, youknow there's this, you know
productivity question about youknow what's your throughput.
I might have said, well, hey,if you look at those numbers and
it's, and it is 25% for thelast six months and if I commit
to getting that service cloudcertification in the next, you
know month, three months,whatever that reasonable number
is, you know, will you agree tomake this?

(01:05:24):
You know 45 and go for theclose.
I'm, I maybe old school, butI'm you know A, always B, b, c.
Closing.

Yeah, and so I like that.
But what I don't like aboutthat is that that might cost me
three to six months of pay raiseand that's going to cost me
$20,000 or $15,000.
Like, you just got like and nowI've got to wait six months.
Six months later am I going toget a raise?
Nope, so now I have a question.
I have a question 18 months.

Peter Ganza (01:05:52):
Sorry to interrupt, josh.
I actually have a question forVanessa.
You're probably like me whereyou're thinking gosh, I wish you
could talk like that.

Totally.

It's easy for you, josh.
It's easy for you, fred.
Right, and that's one of thethings I was going to bring up
along the way, there's apersonality aspect.
No, peter, stop.

Okay, no, it's.
This is.
This is bullshit.
Okay, no offense, and I mean it.
No offense, but it's bullshit.
Yes, there are certainpersonalities that are more
assertive and assertive peoplewill have an easier time when
negotiating with assertivepeople, and people pleasers who
are negotiating with otherpeople pleasers will have a

(01:06:36):
better time and a better outcomewhen they're negotiating with
other people pleasers.
That's a fact.
Okay, that's a fact.
Not all leaders lead withassertiveness, but there are
some diff.
There are definitely someadvantages to to assertiveness
overall.
But saying it's easy for me oreasy for Fred, I can tell you
like it's easy now.

(01:06:57):
He's 46.
I'm 51.
Been doing this a long time.
It's my career.
Right, it's not easy anymorethan like well, yeah, but you're
an app whisperer dealing withapp exchange stuff.
That's easy.
That's like that's easy for you, peter.

Like you what do?

you say but Josh, I've been doing this for 10
years, right?
Wouldn't you say that?

Yeah, and that you nailed it when you when, on that
last part, you were saying it'seasy, now Right, one of the
things I was thinking aboutthroughout this conversation is
my first job.
When I was at Symantec or cantech support, we were measured
on calls per day.
You need to take 30 calls everyday.
Well, yeah, everyone did.
You know you might have alonger call, whatever I would,

(01:07:37):
if I could control it, do 31each day.
And then guess what, a yearafter, I didn't even see this
coming Going to my manager'soffice and he said, oh, you're
getting a promotion.
And I, uh, uh, uh, what?
I had no idea.
I had no idea it was my firstjob, right, but now, right,
we've been through those motions.
So, yeah, I totally agree withyou.

And Peter, I love your story.
That is so like I love that youjust said what you said,
because the best way to have araise is be better than other
people.
Literally.

It, it, it's really , it works.

No, it, it.
It definitely helps, right, Imean, we're in.
You know those sales.
If I was on a team and I'vebeen on teams it's like I was on
a team there were a thousand ofus doing the same job, right,
stephen was there as a thousandof us doing the same job, you
know, at a big corporation, andyou wanted to know where you
stood.
You just pulled up the sheets.
There were a thousand namesranked and every week that that

(01:08:33):
sheet came out, I couldn't waitto see it, couldn't wait.
You know, it was like sevenpages of people and it's like I
remember going from page fiveand then jumping to page three
and then jumping to page two andhanging out there awhile, then
jumping to the top of page twoand then finally getting on a
page one as a big celebrationand then getting up to the top
20 and then getting to the top10.
And then for awhile it wasnumber one man that's climbing

(01:08:56):
and I worked my ass off for it.
You know I didn't see my kidsas much as I wanted to during
those times, during those monthsand years, right?
So, yeah, you got to.
You want to raise.
The first thing you should dois not just.
You know, do the same job thatyou did the year before, you'll
get your 3%, you'll get your 4%if you did the same thing.
But if you exceed expectationsright, if you go above and

(01:09:17):
beyond, then then you've got areason to ask for more money.

Can I throw a suggestion out?
Totally enjoy, you, feel freeto just shoot it down.
But so and I've taken this tactwith a lot of skills that I
wanted to learn over the years Iwill give myself an assignment
to do it at every opportunity.
So yeah, negotiation, I don'twant to say is like easy, but it

(01:09:43):
is practice.
I've done it a lot.
I do it a lot and years ago,when I hadn't done it a lot, one
of the things I did is I gavemyself an assignment for a
couple of weeks to say everyopportunity I have I'm going to
negotiate.
I've done the same thing aboutsaying no.
Sometimes saying no could behard for people, and so you know

(01:10:06):
, and I didn't want to be, youknow sound, you know
obstructiveness or oratory, butsomebody would come up to me and
say, hey, I need you to, I needthis report.
You know, can you get it to meby noon?
And I say, well, I've got thisand I've got this.
So about 230, you know, and itdoesn't have like everything
doesn't have to be a high stakesnegotiation, but the more you

(01:10:28):
practice negotiating and if youdon't think you have, I mean you
probably have 1000 times a daythat you could negotiate.
But you give yourself anassignment and do it more and
you'll.
You'll see people's reactions.
You'll see your reactions.
You'll notice the way that youfeel inside like, oh, you know
that person's really like, lookat their eyes, they really need

(01:10:49):
it by noon and I can give it tothem by noon, but I'm not going
to give it to them by noon.
I'm going to give it to them at130 because that's what I want.
And you know, you just kind oflike, like, get comfortable
because again, I'm not like youknow, I don't want to give
anything away that I might benegotiating with, but like I'm
bought in a lot of the time,like I want to win, I want them
to win, but I want to get what Iwant to get.

(01:11:09):
And you know, you have to becomfortable in those emotions or
you're not going to get there.
And to me, the only way to doit is with practice.
So, that's kind of my little,you know, suggestion.

It's not even a little suggestion, fred.
It's a huge suggestion fromwhere I'm sitting right, because
what you've just shared withthe folks in this audience who
are listening either at home orin the car or live on the show
or later on the podcast and thisis a real thing, right?
So real thing is that you canpractice this stuff and you can
make it concerted effort on itevery day.
You can just say, okay, I'vegot to do it three times, you

(01:11:47):
know whatever, three times a day, whatever, I'm going to do it
for 21 days.
And it could be on anything, onanything, right, like you know
the time that your dentist wantsyou to come in like, hmm, yeah,
that's going to be difficult.
What about this?
Oh, he's a little tight, right,okay, I understand, but can you
make it work?
Yeah, okay, we can fit you in.

(01:12:09):
It's totally like it's just,it's just friendly pushback.
So, please, everyone, check outChris Voss's book, never Split
the Difference.
And, by the way, he was theFBI's lead hostage negotiator
for 20 years.
All right, so that's, that'swhere he's coming from.

(01:12:29):
And, fred, excellent point.
I had a.
I had a client I was coaching.
I actually used to work forthis guy.
He was a client of mine.
I placed him in a job and thenI wound up working for him and
then later on he became a.
I was doing life coaching alongthe sales coaching and things
like that back in the day and hewas struggling to smile with

(01:12:51):
his new daughter.
You know, I don't know what thedeal was.
He might have been just alittle bit on the spectrum or
something like that.
I think he had shared that withme.
He's a lovely man, really niceguy, and he just didn't feel
connected with his otherchildren as much and he had this
new baby and he didn't knowwhat to do and I had him go to
an airport this is probablybefore, I don't know if it was

(01:13:15):
an airport or mall or somethinglike that but I said you got to
go to this thing and you need to.
You can't leave till you get 20smiles.
He's like well, how do I dothat?
I said well, you smile atpeople.
He's like I don't like my teeth.
I'm like we'll get over it.
Smile anyway, man.

I love that Right.
It's so cool.

And he called me up.
He's like Josh, I'm leaving, I.
It was amazing.
He's like I.
I only smiled at like 25 peopleand I got 20 smiles at it.
A couple of people kind oflooked at me a little bit funny,
but almost everybody smiledright back.
He's like that was an insane.
And then he called me two yearslater and he's like Josh.
I just want to say thank you,because I have such an amazing

(01:13:51):
relationship with my youngdaughter and I.
I'm ashamed that I never hadthat experience before with my
other children.
I'm trying real hard to mendthat Right, but I realized I
wasn't giving them, you knowwhat they needed, right?
People want to feel relaxed andhappy, so smile.
Well, this is no different.
So you can go out and you can.

(01:14:13):
Okay, you want to learn how tonegotiate everybody by a plane
ticket to Turkey and go to theGrand Pizarre and buy yourself a
Mirsch and pipe and a rug andsee how that goes.
Okay, so you could go do that.

That might be more in the handling column.

Yeah, it's a little bit more that, that
that's a little bit morehaggling.
But yes, you can practice this.
It's just about gettingcomfortable through and, like I
like to think well, what wouldDavid Goggins do?
Right, so you've got to getcomfortable feeling
uncomfortable people Like, ifyou think things are going to
change by staying in yourcomfort zone.
Good luck with that.

That's been.
I have a question.
Hold on Sorry.

I'm just going to ask you to raise your hand,
peter, that's okay, no problem,thank you.
So, like you've got to getcomfortable with with being
uncomfortable and it doesn'thave to be extreme, I'm no one
saying go run a hundred milesand and jump in a nice store,
you know, jump in a nice.
You know you don't have to dothat, but you can.
You can ask for a differenttime, right, you can ask for a

(01:15:09):
different.
And this is a really good onefor you.
Sales force folks out there,right, like Fred.
Fred just shared a small thingabout oh, I need this by 12.
Well, I can get it to you byone 30.
Well, that worked for you.
Right, like that kind of thing.
But what you can really do islike, when something hands you a
load of stuff, I mean, vanessa,how many weeks did you have 60,
70, 80 hour weeks in some ofyour jobs?
Right, like a lot.

Oh yeah, a ton Consulting.
That was like every week.

And so how do you even say no, like, how do you
say no?
Well, you don't say no, youdon't say no, I can't do that,
because you're usually like, ohshit, okay, it's going to be a
long weekend, right.
But instead you can say, well,how am I supposed to do that?
And they go what?
How am I supposed to do that?
I already have 50 hours ofplaying time with these two

(01:15:54):
clients.
Who's which client do you wantme to call and tell them that
their work won't be done thisweek, right?

It's like a little passive, aggressive
though.

It's not, no, it's just aggressive, is what it
is.
It's not passive, aggressive atall.
It's are you stupid?
Right?
But it's still friendly, right?
So you can say it a nice wayhey man, I'd love to.
But how am I, how am I going todo that?
It's all in how you ask how amI going to do that?
Well, what do you mean?
How you're going to do it?
You're going to do it, you getit done.
That's your job, right?

(01:16:25):
Okay, but there's only so manyhours in the week I'm gonna have
to not do something, right?
You know that, because I work50 hours a week already and
you're giving me 30 more hoursto do, and it's Wednesday
afternoon.
So I'm literally asking howcould I do that?
And they'll stop and they'llthink I'll be like yeah, okay,

(01:16:50):
well, you know, and they'll bethinking about it.
Well, can you get?
And to help you out?
Or let me talk to Anna, let mecall the client.
It's like can't you just callthe client and tell him it's
unrealistic?
Like you're not gonna say thatthat's not part of the
negotiation, but you're tryingto get them to think gosh, this
is unrealistic.
Maybe I should just call theclient and push them back a day
or two days.

Yes, that that is the con.
Those are conversations I'veabsolutely had there you go.
So those I feel a little morecomfortable negotiating at work.
Where it's the, I'll take thison.
But what?
What needs to?
What can I push off or or cansomebody else support me on this
?
Or these are the risks, that ofthe things that might drop if I

(01:17:31):
, if I, take this on.
But that's good, you knowthat's part of the consulting
part.
Maybe it's a matter ofapproaching Consulting
engagement like well, these arethe risks that you run by not
paying me what I'm working.

Right, yeah, I again don't be a dick, right,
and so I don't.
Guys, I didn't sleep much.
It's been a really long daygoofy car stuff.
Today I'm honestly so.
I'm probably not like in in myprime here.
So if I'm coming off as passiveaggressive, then that's my
mistake and I do apologize,because that's not at all what
I'm trying to convey, right?
It's it's not like well, how amI supposed to do that?

(01:18:04):
You know it's it's like okay,how could I do that?

Jason Zeikowitz (01:18:09):
Right.

And just like be nice to that, so you just get to
be yourself.
Okay, we're gonna go to Peterand then to Fred.
Go ahead, peter.

I Thanks, josh.
I just had a quick question forFred With that.
You know, when you talked aboutthe practice and and you know
sort of that's sort of, but youknow, doing that Religiously,
I'll say, was that innate?
That you know you always hadthat or did.
No, you have some experiencesthat, yeah, I'd love to know
more.
But what?

(01:18:37):
What led you to get to thispoint?

Sure.
So I the the technique ingeneral, the assignment, like
give myself an assignmenttechnique.
I got from an executive coachthat I used, you know, probably
15 years ago, and then I appliedit across a lot of things.
I mean, I'd like to think I was, you know, a decent negotiator,
but there were definitely a lotof times that I Would just sit

(01:19:01):
back and take things that Ididn't want to take, and one of
them you know there's two, twoof the things and I wanted to
work on one was having astronger know that I can stand
behind, and the second was, youknow, being better at
negotiating.
And and so, yeah, I, you knownot it wasn't directly something
I talked about with this coach,but I said, oh, you know what,

(01:19:23):
I've got this technique in mybag about giving myself an
assignment.
And so I started out with, youknow, for the next two weeks,
every opportunity that I canidentify, that I can negotiate,
I'm gonna negotiate and I'mgonna, you know, go for what I
want.
And it sometimes worked out,sometimes it didn't, but it gave
me practice and I still do itsometimes, and sometimes I'll

(01:19:45):
still just do it.
You know, again, I don't wantto give anything away to anybody
.
That's Like you business withme.
But sometimes I'm just like youknow what I'm just gonna do.
I can, I do it, sure, but Ijust want to.
I just want to negotiate this.
Yeah, I wanted to.
I want to push back on it.
So it definitely wasn't aneight, and that's that's why I
decided to work on itintentionally.

(01:20:07):
The thing I wanted to share, whyI'm talking, is I don't think
there's anything wrong withsometimes being passive,
aggressive, and I've been inconsulting for a while and and
there there's some consultingleaders out there that will work
you 120 hours in a week.
If, if you let them, you know,and and there's some people,

(01:20:29):
josh to to your technique of youknow, how am I supposed to do
that?
The answer is gonna be I don'tcare, do it.
And so you just have to have alot of tools in your bag.
You know, sometimes it's thatpassive, aggressive, you know.
Hey, tell me which one of thesethings you want to drop.
Sometimes it's a hard, no,sometimes it's a negotiation,
like the right tool is notalways the same tool.

(01:20:51):
You have to have a lot oftechniques to go to the yeah In.
You know, salary negotiation alittle bit less so, but if
you're negotiating things likedeadlines or work or hey, I need
you to be in Toledo tomorrow totake a meeting.
Sometimes you need to pull adifferent tool out of the bag.
Negotiations not always theright tool.

Yeah, it does it.
Thanks for great question,peter, and Really good response
there too, and I'll just saywe'll get to you just one sec
here.
Jason, thanks for raising yourhand.
Look, you do need a number oftools, but, but you just need a
few to make everything kind ofgo better.
Right again, it's like toneresearch, it's tone of voice,

(01:21:33):
it's understanding how to appeal.
This is something that wehaven't even mentioned on this
show yet how to appeal tosomeone's status.
Right, we talked a lot abouthow people can be afraid and
things like that.
But, like the this Personalitythat you're talking about, this,
I don't care, get it done,right.
Okay, frankly, that's me understress.

(01:21:54):
You just described me understress, steven.
Seen it right.
So, like that's.
That is sometimes how peopleare.
That's not how they areGenerally all day long at home
with their families, with thepeople that they love, when
they're feeling calm, right?
So that person who's like Idon't care how you do it, just
get it done.

(01:22:14):
It's like.
It's like hey, hey, you know.
Like hey, it's gonna be okay,but I do need to discuss this
with you.
All right, we're gonna find asolution, right, and I
understand how important this itsounds like this is really
important to you.
Yeah, it's really important.
It's like, okay, you know,sounds like, if this doesn't get

(01:22:35):
done, wait Whatever you know,say whatever, but name their
emotion.
Sounds like you're you know.
It sounds to me like Some shitcould hit the fan if this isn't
done on time.
Yeah, that's exactly what's up.
Okay, yeah, that's not acomfortable position to be in.
No, it's not right.
When you're naming the person'semotion, you can bring that

(01:22:58):
person down, that person who'slike I don't care, just get it
done.
It's like like, okay, you soundreally frustrated and a little
bit nervous that it's not.
You just say that.
What are they gonna say?
You're right, okay, so thosepeople are not lost.
You can take those people.
There's this guy on YouTube.

(01:23:18):
I love watching this guy.
He's like a dog whisper orsomething.
I forget what they call.
Him is this young, he lookslike a little hip-hop fashion
dude and he takes these nasty,big, mean dogs, big angry
malamutes and things like thatthat want to bite the face off
of strangers, and he gets themby the leash and within about
you know, 30 seconds or a minuteor two minutes, they're calm

(01:23:40):
and healing and obeying hiscommands.
I love watching this guy Right.
If you check them out, googlethat stuff it's absolutely
incredible he's taking.
Now these dogs are aggressive.
Is it because they're angry dogs?
Anyone who thinks the dogs areangry, throw a purple heart.
If you think the dogs are angry, throw up a Everyone raise your

(01:24:03):
hand.
If you think it's becausethey're scared, there we go, we
get more hands on the skin,you're right.
So that purse is.
Sorry, jason, you came close.
Buddy, you know one or two.
You had a one and one two shothere.
So those managers who are like Idon't care, get it done.
Do you think that they're angry?
They might be, but what arethey really?
They're frightened, they'reterrified, they're scared.

(01:24:26):
And that's when we start usingour announcer voice.
Hey, fred, it's gonna be okay,all right.
I.
I assure you, we'll find a waythrough this.
It's really gonna be okay, allright.
Okay, I call it that that sortof, you know, soothing Mother

(01:24:49):
voice, or Chris Voss calls itthe FM DJ.
You know, friday night DJ, youknow.
And now, welcome to thisSalesforce career show.
Right, you, just, you can suethem with your voice.
There's this thing that we havein our brains.
They're called mimic neurons.
Who's heard of mimic neurons?
No one.
Okay, so mimic neurons Jasonhas.

(01:25:10):
Okay, so mimic neurons arethese neurons in your brain and
we start communicating the wayother people are communicating
with us.
So if I got in front of a crowd, I was like, hey, everybody has
a go in, right, and I starttalking like that.
I'm like, ah, blah, blah.
You think about it?
Comedians do it all the time,don't they?
They get revved up and like, ohman, we're gonna have fun.
Oh, my god, san Francisco.

(01:25:31):
Blah, blah, blah.
Can you believe this place?
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Right, and everybody kind oflike this starts feeling a
little bit more energy.
Maybe you're even feeling justa little bit more energy right
now.
Okay, thanks, thank you for theclaps there.
So like that's a real thing,okay and then example.
Yeah, there's a good example.
And then you can get let's just, right now, just slow it down.

(01:25:53):
Okay, we're just gonna slow itdown a little bit.
Nothing scary here, justchanging my voice, my tempo and
my inflection.
It's kind of going down.
Yeah right, that's.
What's happening is theseneurons are Happening, they're
getting fired in your brain andif you start communicating with
me, you're gonna startcommunicating the way I do.

(01:26:13):
I mean, everybody here's talkedto a southerner and started you
know they're standing next totheir friend, they're friends
like why are you talking to thesouthern draw?
You know, I didn't even know.

I was doing it right.
Why am I talking to fog cornlayhorn?

Yeah, so you can take that scary boss and you can
scare, you can calm them down.
People aren't angry.
People shouldn't be scary.
Scary people are almost alwaysafraid Okay, almost always
afraid.
Or sad, okay, not angry.
Maybe they're angry too.
You can calm if they're angry,they're angry, you'll know it.
Anger is just a.

(01:26:46):
It's just the stage of emotionyou get to right before you
sadness, right.
So I just want to make sureeverybody understands that even
the scariest, just like thescary dogs, right, someone can
find in two minutes how to calmthem down.
You actually have that power ifyou practice.
I promise you you do, and itwon't work a hundred percent of

(01:27:10):
the time, but it will work withthe majority of the time and
it'll work better and better themore you get used to it.
Who thinks?
Who thinks that's true?
I'm kind of curious.
Let's see some hearts or handsin the audience.
Okay, got a thumbs up.
We've got a hundred percent,not a hundred percent.
Some hearts, okay, anotherheart?
Great, this is good, all right.

(01:27:30):
So, um, let's green heart.
I like these green hearts.
That's cool, All right.
Well, go ahead.
Jason, you had your hand upbefore.
I want to make sure you get achance to pipe up here.

Um, yeah, great , great, uh, lecture soapbox
scrubbing that out.
That was.
That was great.
And I'm curious, josh, did you?
I was talking about chris boss.
Did you hear the recentinterview he gave on the andrick
huberman podcast?

I haven't watched that one, no, but I, but I
really am a huge fan of huberman.
I mean I, you know, I like allthings neurological and behavior
also.
That's I'm doing, what I'mdoing, yeah.

Yeah I had a feeling that you're already new
by Huberman, so for those whodon't already know, he's a
Stanford professor ofneuroscience and he has a
podcast and YouTube channel aswell.
For whatever medium you canconsume that content, it's the
same thing whether it's onYouTube or podcast.

Yeah, and I heard he's actually going to be
leaving being a professor.
I heard he's going to go fullon on his own.
Yeah, and I think he's aprofessor of neurology.
Yeah, neuroscience, yeah.
So what happened on thatprogram?

Well, the stuff that you were calling out about
the tone of the voice and aboutmirroring and about labeling,
he breaks it down.
So they're talking about hisChristophosis tactics that you
just drew out, and he breaksdown the science behind it about
how your lower tone of voicegets the person to lower their
tone in their head.
And labeling actually allowsthe person to hear themselves,

(01:29:05):
because we're better able tohear others than ourselves.
So when you label or restate amirror, in a way, just restate a
couple of the things they justsaid.
It allows the person to hearwhat they just said.
They can clarify.
They know that you heard it.

(01:29:26):
So all great tactics they are?
Yeah, they are.
Thanks for sharing, yeah, andalso the power of practice as
well, because I know when yousaid how can I do that?
That's exactly a quote fromChris Boss and it does sound
like I don't know when he saysit like he's a pro.

(01:29:48):
He's said it so many times inhostage negotiation situations.
I guess it's all about in themoment, finding the right term
and just being able to connect,to say a phrase in the moment
and that they don't understandwhat you just said.
You're conversating, you'reexplaining yourself.
So that's where to Vanessa'sstatement about ooh sounds

(01:30:09):
passive, aggressive.
I mean, it's something out ofcontext.
But if you're connecting,having a conversation, you say
something and if the person'sand if you notice a reaction
that's not what you wereexpecting, you could then be
able to pivot.
But the direction is how youare getting the cards on the
table.
These are how many hours Icurrently have, based off of my

(01:30:31):
current workload.
So how can we make this?

work.
Yeah, exactly yeah, there's somany.
Thank you for sharing, Jason,and you're absolutely right,
there are a lot of differentways that you can say it.
Maybe I could use your.
I want nothing more than tomake the client happy.
I think you know that, but I'mkind of.
This is my situation right nowthese two other bosses God gave

(01:30:57):
me this.
This is this does do Thursday,this stuff's do Friday.
What would you do if someonehanded you 30 more hours of
things to do?
Right, oh, yeah.
Okay, yeah, got it.
Okay, that does sound a littleunreasonable, because they can
actually hear how stupid it is,right, you know, and then they

(01:31:20):
can solve the problem for you.
And that's what's key Gettingthe person to talk and get them
to feel calm, get them to feelcomfortable.
I'll tell you this, I knew this.
I knew this gal from a fewyears ago three, four years ago
and she was like really smart,like really bright, okay, had a

(01:31:44):
lot of good things to say andtotally had imposter syndrome.
Right, being on being on talk,you know, being being on
programs, being on podcasts,being on stage, totally had had
imposter syndrome.
And to this day she still getsstage fright.
And yet I don't know almostanyone else in the ecosystem who

(01:32:04):
is more well regarded asfriendly, has amazing followers,
and yet she still continues tobe like an amazing contributor,
right and and.
And she wasn't sure she could dothat stuff, she wasn't sure she
could be a presenter, shewasn't sure she could do public
speaking, she wasn't sure shecould be a co-host on this show.

(01:32:27):
So you know, when we thinkthese things about ourselves,
like, can I do this?
Yeah, you can, duh, justpractice and go for it, just do
it just like Fred said you justdo it bit by bit by bit and
you're going to wake up.
But wouldn't it be better towake up in two years knowing

(01:32:50):
that you're 50% a betternegotiator than if you did
nothing about it?
And, guys, I wish everybody onthis show is listening right now
, could have come to thispresentation and I do hope to
get the whole thing out on a, ona video for you or even on
audio recording, because theamount of money that's left on
the table just by not gettingthat extra 10 or 12 grand when

(01:33:14):
you take your new job, notgetting that little bump or by
accepting a 4% raise instead ofa 6% raise every year for 20
years, is in the millions ofdollars.
It's in the millions of dollars.
The example I used was $120,000person.
Now the person negotiates$132,000.
Okay, the person who gets the$132,000 in a 4% rate or a 5%

(01:33:38):
raise every year, guess whatthey're going to get?
They're going to make 600 grandmore over over 20 years.
The person who negotiates a 6%raise every year and started at
132K is going to come over with$2 million more when they retire
20 years later.
All right, go ahead, vanessa.

One lovely words, and I also wanted to to say you
know, this is along the linesof what we had talked about.
I think it was either the lastepisode or two as far as not
having not being asleep to thoseself-limiting beliefs stepping
into fear, because you mightactually end up finding
something that you're actuallyquite good at if you practice.

(01:34:16):
This always happens to be oneof my weak spots.
But another thing that I thinkI would also encourage folks
that are kind of more in.
You know, maybe in my position,I always leverage the things
that I'm good at to be better atthe things that I'm not good at
.
So when I talk about that, Imean in terms of asking for help

(01:34:39):
.
So if, for example, I had arecent salary negotiation I'm
not going to get into thedetails, you know on the show,
but I knew I could reach out toyou if I needed to.
I know that there are goodnegotiators in my life, Just
like when I was speaking, youknow, and I could reach to Janet
Elliott, you know, when I waslooking for guidance.

(01:35:00):
That's right.
Speak, yeah, I think it's thefolks that are good at the
things that you don't feelconfident in and getting that
help.
It's always okay to ask forhelp and it's okay to admit that
you're not good at something oryou don't feel strong at it
today.
It's always that you know,throw the yet in it.
It's not that I'm not good atit, I'm not good at it yet.

I love that, vanessa.
Yeah, reach out.
You know Jason called me aroundsalary negotiation.
You can go back a coupleepisodes.
We talked a lot about it andthat was for a job offer
negotiation and he said theright things and he got what he
was actually worth.
You know, I'm proud of him forthat, because that does take
guts.
It does take your riskingsomething, and we talked a few

(01:35:47):
weeks ago two, three weeks agoabout how you have to be maybe
it was even a month ago.
Right, he must be willing towalk, walk away, right.
It's when you're not willing towalk away that you are really
held over a barrel and that'snot a comfortable position.
If you've ever seen someoneheld over a barrel, what comes

(01:36:08):
next ain't fun, okay.
So like, don't do that.
You know we have options in ourlife guys.
You want to go negotiate for apay raise?
Well, it's perfectly okay tojust talk to your boss and say I
haven't really given this muchthought, but I've been here a
little while and you know I loveit here and I started thinking

(01:36:31):
about, you know, my value to thecompany and I certainly feel
like I'm more valuable now thanI was 12 months ago or 18 months
ago.
I'll be honest, I don't evenknow how to talk about salary.
You know, I don't even knowwhat to ask for, like I really
don't know.
But I definitely want to feellike you know, I'm valued.
You know, can we talk aboutthat?

(01:36:53):
And it'll be like, yeah, we cantalk about it.
Of course they're going to sayyes.
If they say no, you need to gofind a new job because this
person's a jerk, right, so youcan just just be yourself and
just just say it Like gosh, Idon't even that's it.
You get to do this Like gosh,you know.
Thanks for the offer, fred.

(01:37:14):
I mean five grand, like that's.
You know, thank you, like Idon't know what to say.
I, you know, I think I have agood sense of my value, but if
I'm being honest, I kind of wantto ask for more.
I don't really know how to doit, you know, can you help me
out here?

Yeah, that's more my personality style.
But you know, I have to say,even though negotiation isn't
something that I feel supercomfortable doing, I have felt
the impacts of not doing it.
I mean, I, you know, I used tobe a VP at a mid-sized company
and I make like double.
You know what now, what I, whatI made back then, just because

(01:37:54):
I was happy to take those 3%raises and I'd been at that
company for 17 years.
And you know, I, it makes me,if you think about it in terms
of like, what you are going tolose.
You know, if you think aboutthe, the president, future value
of money, not having that moneytoday is really impactful for

(01:38:14):
your future.
That's your retirement, that'sthe, that's.
It's so important.
And so it really took me toolong, I think, to learn that
lesson and and even though it'snot something I'm particularly
comfortable with now, I couldn'timagine not at least trying to
get what I think I'm worth andspeaking to people about how to,

(01:38:34):
how to get that, and listeningto shows like this Because it is
so important just for your Imean long term, for your life.

Yeah, it matters, it absolutely matters.
And again, going back, like youcan practice small.
My son, charlie's 20 years old,he goes to University of Oregon
and I got a call late lastnight, halloween night.
What happened?
Someone smashed his Subaru andPreza rear window and stole his

(01:39:04):
subwoofer.
It was a badass subwoofer too,bummer man Like that thing was
like I don't know three 400bucks in the window, I don't
know what that is like 800,000bucks to fix it.
And so, you know, you got it alltaped up and he called me, or I
called him around one or twoo'clock my time, it's about 11
o'clock this time and I was likewhat's going on?

(01:39:25):
He's like, oh, you know, I, youknow, I don't know what to do.
I'm going to call mom and dothis, blah, blah, blah.
But I was like, just call andget some quotes, just call and
get some quotes.
And so he did.
He got two quotes.
One was for like 8, 850.
And the other one was for like600 bucks.
Right, and he said.
He said to the person he's likeOkay, well, 600 bucks, you know

(01:39:47):
, I don't know, I think I'm justgoing to call insurance.
And then what's the guy do?
Insurance always tries to beatthem up.
He's like.
He's like, he's like, I'll tellyou what, I'll just do it for
500 bucks.
That's your deductible, right?
He's like, yeah, he's like,okay, I'll do it for 500.
All he had to do was say onelittle thing not 100 bucks off,
right, like, it's all it took it.
When you start getting theselittle micro wins I saved 10

(01:40:10):
bucks there.
I saved 50 bucks there.
I saved $5,000.
I saved $100,000.
I saved $300,000.
Right, and, by the way, that'sreal.
This happens all the time,every day, all over the world.
Some people are saving money,some people are winning and some
people are, they're satisfiedand unknowingly losing their

(01:40:32):
shirt, right?
So just practice small, allsorts of different things and
have fun and read that book.
Read that darn book for real.
And if books are not, you thinkyou can get the audio book.
I like the audio book because Ithink I does.
Does he do the reading?
Do you remember?

Jason Is Chris Vost in the reading he does
Within his wonderful FM latenight DJ voice.

He's got a like this guy's got a.
This guy's got a terrific voiceand an enviable voice for sure,
absolutely.
And you can watch YouTubevideos.
Just, you know, become like alittle bit of a junkie on this
stuff.
I watch tons of videos on boatsOkay, like that's what I do all
the time.
He's like a watch boat porn.
But every once in a while I gotto be like, okay, I better

(01:41:16):
watch some like more Alex Ramosyor some more Peterson or some
more you know, voss, or somemore Robbins or like whatever
you know and just got my feel Goahead.
Go ahead, jason.
And then we're going to kind ofwrap this up and take some
questions and maybe answer someother questions around salary.
We didn't cover everythingtoday, right, so we'll try to
answer any questions.
If there are any, go go for it,my friend.

Jason.
Yeah, two other recommendationsto look into as well, addition
to Chris Vost's book and hisinterviews man that that guy has
so many interviews out therenot only in Andrew Huberman's,
which I think was the best ofhis, but he's done a lot of
interviews out there justbecause he's a great promoter.
So if you check your podcastsearch for him, you can see a
lot of his interviews out there.
Yeah, in addition to his book.

(01:41:57):
Another book and concept isnonviolent communication
throughout a hard, if you'veheard of that nonviolent
communication.

You've got to Vanessa and Fred do Okay, cool.

It's essentially, you know, it's how
that the dog whisperer was ableto whisper to those dogs,
understanding that they're notafraid, they're I'm sorry,
they're not angry, they'reafraid.
And it's great for emotionalintelligence, for yourself and
for others.
Separating, labeling, labelingemotion and just being aware of

(01:42:30):
emotion, for instance, evenbefore public speaking.
Oh, I'm okay, my heart isracing, my palms are sweaty.
Okay, I'm anxious, I'm excited,I could label it that way, I
could relabel it.
So you're just identifying ohhey, it looks like you're
getting a little red, looks likeyou're talking fast, looks
seems like you're angry.
So so you're labeling, becauseyou're identifying emotions and

(01:42:50):
you're set and you're separatingthe emotion from the incident.
So that's what nonviolentcommunication does.
It has.
It focuses on emotions.
Incidents need, okay.
So why are you feeling that?
How did this stimulus causethat reaction?
What?
What was the direction you wereheading?
To that this then change yourcourse, and what's the request?

(01:43:12):
What do we do about it?
So those four thingsobservation observation, feeling
, need and request.

Jason, thank you for sharing that.
I'm definitely going to checkit out.
And you said something reallyimportant, which is the why.
Right, and this is again Icovered in the presentation, but
we did not talk about it today.
So when someone says I'm goingto offer you a $5,000 raise,
like Fred offered to me today,or you didn't offer it, he said
that's what I was getting, right, I never, I never talked about

(01:43:46):
with the audience here todayabout thinking about well, why
is he offering that?
Like he and I both know that isa standard of living raise, not
a you've done a good job raise,Like we both know that, right.
So then I need to be askingmyself, well, why?
Okay?
Well, he brought up the budget.
It's like, yeah, everyone's gota budget, but he might have an

(01:44:07):
extra $400,000 in there tospread around if he wants.
Maybe he's trying to appeal toyou, know, the CEO.
Look how much money I saved bynot spending it on these
employees.
Yeah, exactly, right.
So just because he said thebudget doesn't mean that it's a
small budget, right?
What happened in everyone'sbrain when they heard Fred say

(01:44:28):
that he has a budget?
What did you think?
Oh, budget bad, not enoughmoney, right, right, but that's
not necessarily the case.
So why is he offering this?
Why was it low?
Okay, maybe there are issueswith my performance and that
would have been in a whole otherangle.
Fred, thank you for offering mean increase.
It really sounds like a cost ofliving increase.

(01:44:50):
You know how has my performanceaffected?
You know.
You know this sum that you'reoffering.
You know what I mean it's like.
Why is he even offering me thislousy five grand?
And I know five grand could bea lot of money for some people,
but for somebody who's making120, 125 and takes a year, year

(01:45:10):
and a half, to get, that's notthat much money.
Right, it's 250 bucks to takehome a month, maybe, if you're
no, not even, not even somethinglike that.
I don't know.
Okay, so why?
So when someone says, you knowwe want to offer you 130K, right
, or or better yet, a betterexample would be like hey, I

(01:45:33):
need you to work 20 extra extrahours in the next two days, you
got to ask yourself, well, I'mgoing to negotiate that part,
but why do they need that done?
Well, they're under pressure,okay, who are they under
pressure from?
Oh, it's the client.
Oh, yeah, I know that client.
They're tough, they threaten toleave, so they use hardball

(01:45:53):
tactics to put fear into thisSalesforce partner that I worked
for.
Oh yeah, things have been tightin the last year, so they don't
want to lose any clients, sothey're bending over backwards
and they're being held over abarrel.
So maybe now that I know the whyand then I can just say sounds
to me like you're being I meanthis, you could be really direct
Sounds to me like the client'sreally holding you over a barrel

(01:46:13):
.
That can't feel good.
Dude, you nailed it.
You're right.
We are being held over a barrel.
I don't even know what to do.
Well, I want to help.
Let's, let's figure it outtogether.
Do you see how that works, guys, a little bit, yeah, good.
Yeah, a bunch of hundreds there, so cool.
Do we have questions before wewrap up this, this fun little

(01:46:38):
show that we've been having?
So if you have a question, youcan raise a hand.

Go ahead.
The other thing I want, lastthing I wanted to reference,
also for some fun for classes,for arguments.

Jason, jason, jason, I'm just going to ask you
to hit pause for a second,because we're asking for
questions right now.
Okay, is it all right?
Yeah, all right.
I just want to check that andthen we'll go to you once you
raise your hand.
Okay, we're going to get someorder in this room today, I
promise.
Thank you, okay.
So, vanessa, did we have anyquestions come in this week that
we want to reach out to?
To?

respond to I have not received any questions, but
I do have one question frommore myself.

Okay, let's, let's have that.
Jason, I promise you'll get achance to share this stuff, but
if you could because we do wantto wrap it up if it's not
related specifically to salarynegotiations or what or the
topic, just stick it in a tweetand everybody can hit it.
Okay, Go ahead, Vanessa.

So, in regards to negotiations, should you still
negotiate if, let's say, there'sa range and they offer you the
top of the range, is that stilla spot?
If you, if you said in thebeginning that, yes, that range
is okay, and then they offer youthe top, my gut just says, oh
great, I don't have to negotiatethen.
But I'm curious to hear whatyou would have to say about that

(01:47:52):
.

Yeah, that's an awesome question, by the way.
I want to make sure everybodywalks, walks away and hopefully
you've listened to this wholeshow and I want to make sure
that everybody, if they aregoing to offer something to
someone, that you give a rangeand Fred and I were talking,
you'll know I didn't ask for a130 to 150, but I gave a range,
right, what I want is 130.

(01:48:13):
So the number that I actuallywant is the low end of the range
, because they're only going tohear the low number.
I mean, hopefully that makessense.
If I say I'm looking for 150 to170K, the hiring manager is
going to hear 150 and I might bethinking 170, and when they
offer 150, I'm going to feellike a little bit, you know, but
hurt, because they didn't, theydidn't hit me higher in the

(01:48:34):
range.
Well, that's not your job.
Your job is to hit them withthe low number.
Needs to be the, the numberthat you actually want, right?
So okay, so back to yourquestion.
So there's, there's a couple ofthings that you can do here
right Now.
If it's a small company andthey have some sort of range,

(01:48:54):
you have every right to find outwhy the range is the range
right.
Big companies like if you'reworking, say like Cognizant
principal architect is going tomake X to X, you know, let's say
it's, they're going to make,you know, 190 to 210.
And if you've been there fortwo years you'll get 20%, and if
you've been there for you knowonly one year you'll get 10% or

(01:49:15):
whatever.
If you're doing leadershipactivities, you'll get more
bonus and if not, you're goingto get this.
That stuff's pretty much, likeyou know, written in stone.
Okay, what's not written instone is your job title.
I noticed that I'm at the.
You know you've.
Thank you for offering me thetop of the range for BA level
two, right, I'd like to ask youwhat the range is for BA level

(01:49:38):
three and what the expectationsare for any candidate that comes
in.
Like what?
Did I miss?
Some requirements for that forthat level of the role?

Yeah, no, that's interesting, but again, it's the
why being the business analystand you're in negotiations, I
like it.

Yeah, so, but but just know, like, yeah, that's
the top of the range for thatjob title, can you?
But you can negotiate adifferent job title, right?
Well, I don't want to be aconsultant, I want to be a
principal consultant, right?
Because principal consultants,the range starts 10 grand higher
and moves up further.
So if you start me at the hey,how about this?
Hey, thank you for offering thetop of the range.

(01:50:17):
I'm going to assume that thatmeans you know, like, is it
right for me to assume that if Ido a really good job in a year
but I'm not promoted, that Iwon't receive a raise because
that's the top of the range?
You know what, if I came in onthe low end of you know, ba
level three, so that there'smore upward mobility for me for

(01:50:38):
the next couple of years, Right,did that answer it?
Hopefully that answered it.
It looks like Fred's got apoint of view.
Go ahead, fred.

Yeah, I just say, and I agree 100%, especially on
the moving, the moving, the, the, the job title up.
Let's say another thing isright now, especially, some
jurisdictions are requiring thepublishing of a range, and I
know for a fact that some placesare are are publishing a range

(01:51:10):
that is under what they'rewilling to offer, in order to
not introduce thoseconversations to everybody else
that already has a G Yep, Justto rebob, you got that right.
I think it's always fair game Ifyou, if you can like the same
thing we talked about before, ifyou can point to.
This is why I think I'm worththis.
It's always worth theconversation, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, you're always allowed to push
back and there's always an angle.
There's always an angle right.
And you know, guys, this iswhat I used to preach back in my
old Robert half days, which wasto both sides, and I still do
this, right, cause it some ofthis advice I'm giving.
If you're a client of mine andyou're listening, it's like well
, josh, are you screwing us overby giving us these ranges?
Do you really only always wantthe low range?

(01:51:53):
And the flat out answer is no,not at all.
Like the truth is, we'restraight up.
This is what it's going to taketo bring this person on, and if
you bring them on for this,they're going to be happy.
That's the right amount, right?
If you want to give them more,you're welcome to.
If you give them less than,you're going to risk resentment
or them going somewhere else.
So it's totally up to you ifyou want to take that risk,
right?
So just understand that.
I don't even remember what elseI was going to say.

(01:52:15):
But look, ranges are great andeverything's up for negotiation.
Just, you want to?
Oh, I remember the right amount.
Okay, if someone pays you toomuch, too much, you're going to
wind up like all thoseSalesforce people that had been
at the company for 16 years andwere making $300,000, but lived
in the wrong region and gotfired because they made too much

(01:52:39):
.
They'd made $299,.
They would still have their job, right.
So it was the wrong amount forthem.
It was an expensive amount forthem, right?
And if you pay someone toolittle, they're going to resent
you and they won't stay.
And if you want to talk aboutexpensive, lose a good employee.
That's way more expensive thanall the boats I would love to

(01:53:02):
own someday.
Okay, way more expensive.
And people like, yeah, yeah,yeah, you're going to say that
you're a recruiter, I am arecruiter and I'm saying it
because it's the fucking truthfor real.
It's so expensive to findsomeone train them.

I was going to say I don't want to put you, I don't
want to put you on the spot,but like.
That's something that maybecould help some of the people
that are feeling apprehensiveabout salary negotiation.
What does it cost if you wantto throw out just like a general
number If you're replacing ahundred and twenty hundred and
fifty thousand employee?

what's the cost of the company's Look, if that
person leaves and they suck attheir job, it costs them nothing
, because no one, no, no companyshould keep bad employees,
right.
So there's that.
But if you have someone who'swho's really good like Stephen
is on my team, right.
If you've got someone who'sreally good like, the cost to
losing Stephen would probablycost me, I don't know, four or

(01:53:58):
five hundred thousand dollars,the long term.

Yeah, so keep that in your pocket, right?

Yeah, you're asking for your raise, right,
like you don't have to say itbut yeah, stephen, I don't want
to hear about this shit tomorroweither, man, so don't bring
this up, okay?
But yeah, no, it's expensive,like you know we're.
You know it's like you'retalking about.
You know, stephen's been withme here for two years and he
worked, we worked at Robert Halftogether for three and a half
years.
So we've got five and a half,almost six, years together and I

(01:54:29):
can't replace that.
That's expensive.
There's, there's, there's maybeone other employee I've ever
had in my life and I've haddozens of employees, maybe one
other employee that everexhibited the same level of you
got it, boss, and he'd get itdone.
That's what Stephen does.
You think I can go find that byhaving a few interviews?

(01:54:52):
Forget it.
There's no way.
There's no way Now.
And I might even be able tofind it, but it might still take
me two years to actually getthe same results.
You see what I mean.
So it really depends.
If someone's got a hundred,let's say, a hundred thousand
dollar admin, right, but they'vebeen with the company for a
while.
And the client you know theinternal clients really like

(01:55:15):
that person.
They're great for culture,they're reliable.
You, they, you can count onthem.
You can give them projects.
The projects get done, they'reout of your hair, they don't
cause you many headaches, youdon't have to have corner off,
like you don't have to worryabout them.
Don't find that other person?
Well then you're going to haveto pay me and that's probably
kind of cost you about $25,000.

(01:55:35):
And if you do go through me,you know you'll have about a 6%
chance of attrition and if youdo it on your own, you've got
somewhere between a 30 and a 50%chance of attrition.
That means you're going to haveto hire two admins to get the
one that you want and God forbid, you use a recruiter who's not
very good.
Now you're paying 40 or $50,000and wasting a year.

(01:55:58):
Do the math on that.
It's expensive.
I mean, I was talking to afriend.
He's got a small SI guy andhe's been in the ecosystem for
well over a decade and he's gota bunch of folks over in India
who do a lot of work for himvery affordably.

(01:56:19):
And when we were chatting aboutthis stuff we were talking
about like yeah, you got to hiretwo.
Like if the average managergoes out to hire someone, they
got to hire two people to getone.
And guess what?
Yours truly has f'd up and donethat before.
I hired Steven and anotherperson at the exact same time
and four months later onlySteven was left standing.

(01:56:41):
So like I'm susceptible to it,especially internally.
But outwardly with clients is avery different thing.
It's forced for the trees kindof stuff.
But this person said overseasthey had to go through 10 people
to get one.
So they've curated thiswonderful team of eight or 10
people offshore and they'reamazing.
But he's gone through dozens ofpeople to get that Right.

(01:57:02):
It's harder to vet whensomeone's offshore.
You know hard to know culturaldifferences so it's harder to
read someone Right.
So you hire twice to get one.
In the US you hire 10 timesoffshore to get one.
Those are the numbers.
Unless you're working with areally good recruiter and it
doesn't have to be me.
But if you're working withsomeone who's really really very
good they're a lie detectorthen can get people to open up.

(01:57:25):
They can really uncover what'sgoing on and not just protect
you from the bad ones but getyou to open your mind when
you're saying notice someonebecause of your weird
confirmation bias that you'vegot going on.
Whatever, you didn't like thecolor of their shirt or they
smiled funny or you didn't liketheir LinkedIn picture right, or
their resume had typos right,or they didn't have enough

(01:57:47):
certifications.
I mean, I can't tell you howmany people over the last 20
years managers have hired fromme.
I'm like you're overlookingthis person and I'm sorry but
I'm sticking my neck out.
If you don't hire this person,I don't know that I'm much value
to you because you're notbelieving me.
When they go ahead and hirethem and six months later
they're like the best candidateever, thank you, because there's

(01:58:09):
risk of not hiring the rightperson, just as there's risk of
hiring the wrong person.
But we fear loss more than wecrave gain and consequently,
what happens is we would rathersay no to candidates without
really digging in and see ifthey're going to be a good fit,
right.
We just look for these certainsigns and then go with our gut,

(01:58:29):
and you know what Everyone's gutis only right about half the
time when it comes to hiring.
So it's real expensive and, yes,you can use that to leverage a
wage increase.
You can use that as leveragefor a wage increase, a promotion

(01:58:50):
, more time off, moreresponsibility, special projects
, you name it.
You can negotiate anything.
Stephen's going to be a partowner of this company.
By the way, come January hedidn't even bring that up.
That's just offered to him.
It's not a lot, but it'ssomething, because he earned it.
Wouldn't it be amazing ifeverybody that you hired who

(01:59:10):
wanted them to own a piece ofyour company, like you wanted
them to, because you neverwanted them to leave, because
they were that good?
And I'm telling you, you can dofar more with five amazing
people than 15 B or C gradepeople.
You get five A players.
Man, you're running full steam,right.

(01:59:32):
So if you're good, the firstthing you got to do is, if you
want to raise again, the firstthing you got to do is be really
good, okay, so be smart, writeyour time, write your time,
stick it out.
Stay more than a year, right,attention, you're going to do
fine.
And, by the way, guys, ifyou're listening to this show,
I'm just going to put thislittle offer out here for you.

(01:59:53):
If you're listening to this showand you're currently in the
next week, 10 days, and you'refacing a negotiation situation
and you're not sure what to do,you're not sure what to say.
You've picked up the books,you've listened to this podcast
and you're still not sure whatto do.
It's okay, just give me a buzz.
Hit me up on LinkedIn.
Don't hit me up on Twitter, Idon't look at it that much.
Hit me up on LinkedIn Right.

(02:00:13):
Go to thesalesforcerecruitercom, send mea
message and you can just ask me.
I'm happy to spend a fewminutes with you.
It's probably not going to bean hour, okay, but I'm happy to
spend a few minutes with you andhelp get you pointed in the
right direction.
I want everybody to succeed.
I want everybody to get paidthe right amount.
I want everybody to work foramazing bosses and everybody to
feel like they can stand up forthemselves.
That's really important to me.

(02:00:35):
So you know we're here for youguys.
Okay, it's been a really funepisode.
Thank you everybody.
I love this panel, I love thisgroup, this group of folks.
You guys are absolutelyfantastic.
Thank you, vanessa, thank youFred, thank you Peter.
Jason.
You've got one minute on thefloor.
Go for it.
I know you got some finalthings to say.
Go for it, buddy.

Well, I already tweeted.
I'm good, oh, you did.

Okay, jason's Iguetz, everybody, stephen,
greger, casey, melissa, robertwe got everybody here.
Thank you so much, reed Morgan.
So good to see you guys.
Thank you for being on the show.
New podcast coming out tomorrow.
If you want to learn a littlebit about style and how adopting
a slightly different style orpaying a little bit more

(02:01:18):
attention to how you dress andhow you appear to help you level
up your career.
That's going to be releasedtomorrow morning, so check it
out and we'll be back in.
Well gosh, what is it?
Two weeks.
Vanessa, you're running thenext show, so do you have a
guest or a topic for that?

Well, peter's going to be my special guest for
the show, but we're going to.
We need to iron out some morespecifics on topics, I think.

Fantastic.
I will be out on the next show,but back in one month from
today or four weeks from today,and thank you, peter and Vanessa
, for continuing on the podcast,and I know you guys are going
to do a fantastic job.

Can't wait to listen and a little thing, just
I want to wish everybody a happyGlobal Business Analysis Day.
Yes, global Business AnalysisDay.

Happy Global Business Analysis Day.
Well, you're my favorite BA andalways have been, always will
be.

Thanks, Josh.

All right, folks.
You have a wonderful evening.
Thanks for tuning in today.
Bye for now.

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