July 25, 2023 • 47 mins
Want to secure your worth and never leave money on the table again? Buckle up for an episode packed with insights and practical advice on negotiating job offer compensation. Our special guests today are Salesforce professionals, Fred Cadena and Jason Zikawitz. Fred shares about his recent podcast relaunch, Banking on Disruption, focusing on digital transformation in finance. Meanwhile, Jason, the latest Revenue Cloud Consultant, walks us through his recent shift from a training to a configuration role. We explore how the Salesforce ecosystem has significantly contributed to their professional success.
Have you ever considered what accepting a lower salary can do to your work relationships and performance? Jason shares his riveting account of how negotiation and self-advocacy led to a 25% pay increase in his new role. Taking us through the risks and rewards of negotiation, we discuss how settling for less can lead to resentment, affecting your job satisfaction and performance. From discussing the value of asking questions, to understanding how to deal with the risks associated with negotiations, this episode offers a goldmine of insights.
Get your notepad ready as we share practical negotiation exercises that could make a significant difference in your next job offer. Hear how Fred interviewed a candidate who created an impactful interview presentation that resulted in a 20% pay increase. Vanessa and Jason also share their negotiation experiences and the importance of preparation and practice. Understanding the costs of negotiation can give you the upper hand, so don't miss out on this valuable discussion. Tune in, and empower yourself with the tools to ensure that your compensation matches your worth.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:02):
And now the number one audio program that helps you
to hire, get hired and soarhigher in the Salesforce
ecosystem.
It's the Salesforce career showwith Josh Matthews and Vanessa
Grant.
Josh Matthews (00:20):
All right, welcome everybody.
Thanks for the applause, barry,anthony.
Okay, everybody sit down.
Please have a seat.
So welcome to the show,everybody, and to the live show
and also to the podcast.
This is your host, joshMatthews.
Our co-host, vanessa Grant, isstuck in a little bit of traffic
on her way to Tahoe Dreaming.
(00:41):
We were hoping she'd be thereon the street able to interact
with some of the attendees, andwe may get that a little bit
later on in the show, but wealso may not.
But that's okay because we arewell prepared.
We have some fantastic peoplehere on the panel, a lot of our
usuals, including our friendsJason, fred and Anthony.
We've got one of my partners incrime, steven Greger, from
(01:05):
thesalesforrestrecruitercom.
That's the business that I runand if you want to check it out,
you can go to guess whatThesalesforrestrecruitercom and
check it out.
New website coming out in abouta month.
So what we're going to do todayinstead is we're going to have
just a little bit of a chit chat, see how everybody's doing, and
then we're going to dive intosome good questions that we've
received from our audiencemembers.
(01:26):
These are people who'velistened to the podcast but
maybe haven't been able toattend one of our live Twitter
Spaces shows like we're on rightnow, so we'll get to the bottom
of all good things.
So let me just check in withour panel here.
How's everybody doing today?
Fred Cadena (01:43):
Fantastic, it's a beautiful Wednesday.
Josh Matthews (01:45):
All right, and that's Fred Cadena.
Fred, give us a little introand tell us about your podcast,
too, while you're at it.
Fred Cadena (01:51):
Sure, thanks.
It's awesome to be here.
I've been a long time listenerand loved everything that you've
been doing with the show andthe podcast.
Fred Cadena, I've been in theSalesforce ecosystem for about
16 years, six years as acustomer, 10 years now in
consulting.
I also recently launched,relaunched a podcast.
(02:13):
I guess I should say I launchedit at the start of COVID, kind
of petered out for a little bit,relaunched it a few months ago.
It's called Banking onDisruption.
It is about digitaltransformation with an emphasis
on financial services, bankingsector topics, but certainly not
banking exclusively and very,very tied in with the Salesforce
(02:34):
ecosystem.
This last episode we had lastweek was all about AI.
So if you're just in AI, pleasego check that out and you can
find us atbankingondisruptioncom.
Josh Matthews (02:46):
Thank you, fred, and are you available on all the
major platforms, includingApple, spotify, etc.
Fred Cadena (02:54):
Apple, Spotify, the whole gamut.
So if you can find us, you'renot looking.
Josh Matthews (03:01):
Okay, terrific.
Now, as I mentioned, we havesome questions that were sent in
by the audience and we're goingto go ahead and address that.
In the meantime, we've gotVanessa has joined us.
Welcome, Vanessa.
Vanessa Grant (03:13):
Hi, sorry I'm driving.
I'm on my way to Tahoe Dream.
Josh Matthews (03:17):
Okay, all right, vanessa.
Vanessa, give us a quickrundown.
Who are you?
What are you all about?
Vanessa Grant (03:23):
I am Vanessa Grant.
I am on my way to TahoeDreaming, where I'm going to be
speaking about diagramming withJanine Markhart, and I am a
nine-time certified, been in theecosystem for 13 years, love
co-hosting here, even if I'm onthe side of a cliff, and I've
(03:44):
been helping people with theirSalesforce careers for probably
three years now.
Josh Matthews (03:49):
Yeah, you have been and you've done an
incredible job.
And, by the way, I know thatroad, I know that cliff.
It's quite steep, so drivecarefully.
Vanessa Grant (03:58):
It's just about a hero.
Then I just got to findinternet and I should be all
right, but sorry for running alittle late today.
Josh Matthews (04:03):
No, it's okay, Don't worry about it.
It's okay we can edit this downlike it never even happened,
but we probably won't because wejust don't have time.
So let's kick off the show witha quick convo with our friend,
jason Zikawitz.
Jason's a regular contributorhere on the podcast and on a
(04:23):
live show, but we want tocongratulate I kind of jumped
the gun a little bit earlier,two weeks ago or maybe last week
if you tuned into the podcastcongratulating Jason on
something, but no one knows,because I sort of caught myself
and then shut up.
But what I was actually wantingto congratulate him on was a
(04:44):
new position.
So, jason, give us the quick20-second rundown.
What are you doing?
What's your new gig, buddy?
Jason Zeikowitz (04:51):
Thank you, Thank you, yeah, yeah and you
know.
Thank you, Josh, you knew theinside scoop because you really
you were great in coaching me,helping me with that interview
process.
New gig is as a revenue cloudconsultant, so really excited,
going from the training side tothe configuring side.
I've just had a progressivejourney, being an end user super
(05:14):
user, trainer of users, and nowI am the producer, the builder.
So you know, working my way tothat back end really excited.
Josh Matthews (05:24):
So happy for you, my friend, really really happy
for you, and you know you'vebeen training for a long time
and you've you know you've putyour time in.
I know that you are you okay ifI speak frankly about some of
the things that we talked about?
Because I think that this is animportant learning opportunity
for anyone who is interested innegotiating on their own behalf.
(05:47):
And I don't mean negotiatingfor a better offer, because you
know you just want more money.
I mean because you're actuallyworth that money.
Like we always said when we'renegotiating our compensation,
whether it's with theorganization that we are in and
we want to raise, or if we areinterviewing with a new company
(06:08):
and we're trying to express ourvalue and be compensated
accordingly for it can be alittle bit difficult, and I
would say that the majority ofpeople struggle in this area.
In other words, they may want ajob so badly that they stop
thinking about the income.
I don't mean that they're notthinking about the income.
(06:30):
I'm just saying that they makeit less important.
Getting a yes, getting the offer, being able to say yes and get
out of whatever situationthey're in right now takes
priority, but we've got to crossthat finish line with
everything, including the rightamount of compensation, and if
we don't, six months later or ayear later, we may feel
(06:50):
undervalued and we may begin tobuild resentment, and that can
affect our relationships at workand our performance at work.
So it's not a great thing foryour career to be paid or, to
excuse me, to be underpaid orpaid the wrong amount.
So talk to us about whathappened in the negotiations for
you with this position and, bythe way, this is a job that
(07:11):
Jason found on his own, butwe're friends, so I gave him a
little bit of coaching on this.
But go ahead and walk usthrough that.
Jason Zeikowitz (07:17):
Well, actually I found it through my network,
which is the power of networking.
So, yeah, I kind of found itthrough my own, through
networking, and when I did getthe offer it was a surprise
because I've been in theSalesforce ecosystem as a
consultant for 2021.
So this initial offer was 25%less than what we're now and at
(07:43):
first I was just like you know,it was a bit of a shock, but I
was actually even thinking ofwilling to take it, just because
of the opportunity to be aconfigurator and then just be
able to work up from there,built from that experience.
So, but then, after you know,talking to Josh and other people
in my camp about justunderstanding the mathematics of
(08:06):
it that you know for takingthat type of cut, I could just
simply take a course to be ableto get that experience.
Josh Matthews (08:12):
Yeah, I'm just going to jump in here to kind of
describe what you mean.
So one of the things that Ishared with you is, if you're
going to take a $25,000 pay cutwhich is what was that's what
the original ask was, and youknow, this doesn't mean that the
organization that you knowhired you is trying to beat you
up on money or anything.
Maybe they just didn't know,right.
(08:32):
So, no harm, no foul.
But when we're trying to breakinto something and we have to
understand, there's a cost,there's a cost for education,
there's a cost for beingrelatively or moderately risky
or high risk for the new company, and so that's why, you know,
(08:54):
entry level positions pay lessthan senior level positions and
senior leadership positions.
Right, it's just how it works.
Okay so, but when you're lookingat a $25,000 delta and that
might not mean as much whenyou're already making 225.
Right, the 225 to 225 delta isnot, you know, as big a deal,
(09:17):
right, and let's just mute whilewe're not talking, please.
But the reality is is when youare working and it's, you know,
literally close to 25% of yourincome, now that's massive,
really, really massive, and youcan just keep the job you've got
.
It's been $25,000.
That gets you halfway throughyour MBA or whatever program
(09:39):
that you want to do.
It's not nothing, it's a lot ofmoney.
Okay, keep going, buddy.
Jason Zeikowitz (09:44):
Yeah, exactly, and so I think that's the
important part to consider, asyou mentioned, the resentment
that might come later withtaking that and also
understanding that it wasn't.
The original offer wasn't givenas a form of the seat or
anything, it was just like apart of like oh, for this
position, this is the, the payrank.
(10:05):
So there was just amisalignment of where I was and
what the position was and justsimply having a conversation,
being frank, saying, okay,listen, I, you know there was a
misunderstanding when I wasinterviewing.
I didn't think the pay rangewould be there.
This is where I'm currently atand that's my minimum request.
(10:28):
So, with that said, the hiringmanager said that he was going
to fight for me because hedidn't want.
You know, he thought that wasunderstandable, he thought I was
a good candidate, so he would.
He wouldn't be able to, hewould have to get that approval,
but he was willing to step upto that for that.
So I think that was reallygreat and just, you know, you
(10:49):
know stating my value and andyou know it was a little
nerve-wracking at first.
So I'm happy that I wasnegotiating from a position of
strength, that I wasn'tdesperate to take a position,
thinking that, okay, if theycan't, that this is simply their
budget for this position andthey can't go beyond it, okay
then I should walk away.
But if they have thatflexibility and this could be,
(11:14):
you know, even better situation,because it shows they have
flexibility and this also showsthat, that that now there's
there's expectations, it's, it'sthere's expectations for me to
do.
Well, look, man, you stood upfor yourself, as what happened,
jason.
Josh Matthews (11:30):
Okay, and that means that you're going to stand
up for the company on behalf ofthem when you're working with
challenging clients that aremaking demands that are
unreasonable.
That's what it demonstrates,right?
And and here's the thing, guys,I mean, at the end of the day,
asking for something is just aquestion.
It's just a question.
It's not going to kill you,right, it's not going to hurt
(11:51):
you.
Now, keep in mind, there arecompanies that and I've heard
stories about companies where,if you just don't accept the
thing that they offer, if youtry to negotiate, they're like
well, we don't even you know,like you're out, we're not even
going to deal with you.
And to those people I say good,right, like, don't work for
people who are like that youknow.
(12:12):
Like that's fricking insanitythat people would be.
Thank you, fred.
Like that's fricking insanity.
Like why would someone be bethat way?
Better to know early, butstanding up for yourself and
asking the question, jason, bythe way, jason was close to just
saying yes.
The good thing is is he has anetwork.
He reached out to me, reachedout to a couple of other people,
(12:34):
right, which, in thoseconversations, was able to
figure out.
Well, this is how I ask, andthis is why I'm asking.
And so now we can paint a storyin about 30 seconds or a minute
for the hiring manager, right?
And what do you say?
He said he's going to go fightfor you.
Now I mean, that's magical.
(12:54):
But people leave money on thetable, whether you're selling
your business, whether you'reselling your car, whether you're
selling your house or whetheryou're selling yourself into a
job.
Most people aren't particularlygood at asking for the thing
that they want.
They're not even good at askingfor the thing that they want in
relationships with people theylove.
So why would they be any betterat it when they're actually,
(13:17):
you know, talking to a strangerabout a job?
If anything, they're going tohave even more fear than then,
right?
So this is just a big call toaction for everybody who's
currently in the negotiatingprocess.
Expecting to be in the jobmarket, is actively in the job
market.
Look, the people who winnegotiations are the people who
(13:38):
are willing to walk away.
It's not more complex than that.
You guys still got to be nice,but it's not that much more
complicated.
I mean, there's a whole libraryof books on how to negotiate.
But if you start there, right,if you start from a position of
strength.
That's a good thing.
But even if he wasn't in aposition of strength, he could
have acted like he was in aposition of strength and no
(14:00):
one's the wiser.
That doesn't mean con someone,it just means ask the question.
That's just to psych yourselfup, to give yourself the
motivation, the energy and let'sface it the courage to ask what
you want, ask for what you want.
Anthony, you had your hand up,pipe up buddy.
Anthony Rodriguez (14:16):
Hey, first off, just a big shout out to
Jason.
Congrats, man, on your newposition.
I started with Booz Allen abouta month ago and I had my
network worth its weight in gold.
You got to take time to findthese people, connect with these
people and just learn from them.
And you know my mentor, JaneenMarquardt.
(14:38):
She's riding with Vanessa Grandright now.
Shout out to the legend myfavorite mermaid.
What's up Janeen.
She helped me so much.
And when I was getting startedI ran into Josh Matthews.
We had a conversation and hemade me realize that there was a
lot I wasn't seeing.
You know, there's a lot of myexpectations.
How it should be and how it iswas so different, you know, and
(15:01):
once I started I had some of thebest advice and he's like
listen, there's going to be alot, your brain's going to
overheat, but you can't takethat work home.
You got to be with the familywhen you're home.
You got to let the CPU unit onyour shoulders cool back down.
And then you go hard againtomorrow and eventually it
starts to catch up and you feel,you know, like you're less like
(15:24):
you're racing and more likeyou're jogging.
Josh Matthews (15:27):
There you go, buddy.
Yeah, and then he gave me andCasey a lift last time we were
at Florida Dreaming in the rain.
So thanks, anthony, it wasgreat to meet you then, and
you've been on the show eversince.
So appreciate you, buddy.
So, vanessa, what about you?
I'd like to hear from you, andI'd like to hear from Fred and
Stephen too, about thisexperience of you know.
(15:52):
Have you had an experiencewhere you've had to negotiate
your compensation for a newposition?
What happened?
Vanessa Grant (16:00):
I'll be honest, this is actually a huge weak
point in my game.
I'm actually listening intentlyand I was thinking about asking
how you get better at it andyou were mentioning you know
reading about it, but it ispartly like a confidence issue
and also, just, you know the artof negotiation.
I took a negotiation class whenI was getting my MBA and I
(16:20):
remember they had us do thisexercise where we had to
negotiate with somebody else andI thought I had a great deal at
the end of it and I got theworst deal in the class and it's
just something I generally notfelt good at.
So while I have had tonegotiate, you know my way of
negotiating so far is just don'taccept the first offer in
(16:42):
general, because I think it'susually expected that you don't.
But that's kind of as far asI've gotten.
Josh Matthews (16:49):
Yeah, and look, I mean, it's a normal experience
and let's face it, nice peopletend to be like that.
They tend to be nice.
They feel like, if they ask formore, that they're somehow
going to be putting someone offoffending them, or maybe that
person might characterize themas not a nice person because
they're asking for somethingright.
(17:10):
But nice people ask for thingsall the time.
You get to be both you know.
So, just so you know, Vanessa,my 18th birthday from my father,
my 18th birthday present thatis from my father was a two day
Keras negotiating seminar.
That's the family I'm from,guys, Right.
(17:32):
So, and I went to that and,unlike you and I'm going to brag
for just a moment because I wasjust a kid, I was 18 years old,
right, I showed up to thisconference in a Guatemalan shirt
, my long hippie hair,Birkenstocks, baggy, army
colored pants and there areabout 45, 50 of us in the two
(17:52):
day seminar and on day two wehad probably some sort of
similar negotiating exercise andI won out of everybody.
Everybody else was in a suit,there were buyers from major
corporations and then me, youknow, with my long curly hair
and, you know, toes sticking out.
(18:13):
So that was kind of funny, butyeah, a little bit of a
different experience.
Fred Cadena (18:18):
One of the key to your success, though, and you
know a little contrarianviewpoint here, but and not in a
flippant way, but there issomething to like not be I was
going to say not caring if youwould or not, but like being
willing to walk away.
Right, all the button up peoplein the suits were probably
taking it a little bit moreserious than you were.
(18:40):
You were able to be a littlebit freer, approaching it the
way that you did, and I'm notsaying that people shouldn't
take employment negotiationsseriously, but that would be my
number one tip is if you'redesperate to get the job, you're
not negotiating from a positionof strength.
So you know, know what you'reworth and be willing to walk
away if it's not the number thatyou need.
Josh Matthews (19:06):
Yeah, I think there's a real valid point there
, fred, I've given it somethought.
I thought, well, like nobodywants to beat up some 18 year
old kid in negotiations and makethem lose, right, it's like
playing chess.
It's like playing chess with asix year old.
Like you want them to play thegame again I mean, unless you're
you know, the Queens gambitgirl, gambit girl, like you know
(19:26):
with the tough janitor trainer.
Like maybe, maybe, fine, right,but I can tell you this, like
if I played chess with my kids alot when I was, when they were
little, and a lot of backgammon,and if I didn't let them, you
know, get some easy moves, likethey'd never want to come back
and play right, so, like I, Ihave given thought to that.
But if I really reflect on onwhy I won and this isn't the why
(19:50):
Josh won a competition 32 yearsago, show, right, it's not
right.
But.
But I've, I've thought about itbecause it was clearly, and you
know I have this memory I canremember sitting there with this
guy and wondering why he wasscrewing up so badly, like it
was over, like the cost oftrucking or whatever the thing
was the little game, and I justremember thinking this guy's
(20:13):
bonking so hard, like so hard.
Why is he bonking so hard?
He's got a tie on Like that,didn't?
I didn't understand only peoplethat I'd ever been around that
had ties with my dad and thepeople who worked for him.
And you know, I was walkingaround with my dad and watching
him negotiate like everything mywhole life, right, and so to me
(20:33):
it was second nature.
But the truth is, all I did istook the notes that they they
said if someone says this, dothis, and if they do this, then
you say that All I did is whatthey taught me.
Like literally, it's not like Iwas gifted, I just was like
wanting to learn.
So I took some notes and whenyou know, he said you know X?
(20:55):
I said, well, how can I do that?
And then he caved Like itwasn't a big deal, you know,
it's just so when you go tothese seminars Like for all of
those folks who might belistening right now on their way
to Tahoe Dreaming, like, takesome freaking notes and believe
the person on stage, like youshould probably start there,
start from a position of trustand believe, believe the expert
(21:17):
that this is how it works.
If you start second guessing itor thinking, nah, I'm not going
to do that.
Well then, you just missed thepoint, pal.
So shame on you.
Fred Cadena (21:27):
You, you if you want any of my other thoughts,
you tell me to not to share them, but the the other thing I was
going to say is like I amsurprised that it got down to
the offer and there was so muchmisalignment.
You know, I would suggest andJosh, you're the expert here but
there should not be a surprisewhen the offer comes down right,
(21:49):
like they should know what yourexpectations are, where you
need to be and if, if that's notwhere they are, then there's
probably no reason for you guysto waste each other's time.
And to your point.
Josh Matthews (22:01):
yeah, I think it was a verbal offer.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, no, keep going, fred.
But yeah, you're right, likethat's.
That's a little late in theconversation.
If we're getting to the pointof verbal offer and it hasn't
been discussed yet, thensomething's off.
Someone missed.
Someone missed a step on theirtick like little checklist,
right.
Fred Cadena (22:21):
Or maybe I mean, I've had people come, you know,
to me in the past, you know, inin roles that I've been going
for, and saying, look, I knowyou said you need to be here,
this is really where we're at,you know what can you do?
And that's a differentconversation, right?
But to just, you know, sayhere's the offer and this is
what it is, and it's stilloutside of the salary
expectation, that just feelsreally off to me.
Josh Matthews (22:45):
It does, but I don't think that it was coming
straight from the hiring manager.
I think it was coming from aninternal.
Was it an internal recruiter,jason?
Jason Zeikowitz (22:53):
Yeah, exactly, internal recruiter.
And the weird part is that.
So I was already working withthe internal recruiter for a
different position where theygave me an offer above what I
requested.
So there was another positionthat at the first interview we
were talking salary, and so thatposition I did get a verbal
(23:17):
offer for.
They went up freezing thatposition so I didn't move
forward with that position, butit was actually that position
was higher than I even asked forand it was so.
Later that same internalrecruiter got back to me with
another position and that'swhere I was just so surprised,
because the first position washigher than I asked for and this
(23:37):
one was so much lower and therewas no talk at the beginning.
Josh Matthews (23:43):
There's a reason for that.
Let me tell you why.
Okay, I'm just going to cut tothe chase here real quick and
it's super straightforward.
The reality is is that externalrecruiters that's what I am,
that's what Steven Greger isright, that's what Jesse is on
our team we are external orthird party headhunters and
recruiters, so internalrecruiters have a different
(24:04):
function than us.
Their job is to help grease thewheels of bringing new
employees onto the team.
Sometimes they need to go outand find them themselves.
Sometimes they're just there tomanage some of the process.
I've got friends that haveworked at Tesla, google, amazon,
disney and Apple.
(24:25):
Okay, and you don't need to doa lot of recruiting in those
companies.
They have top professionalsfrom top schools, people with
deep experience.
Some people will spend 10 yearsbuilding up their career just
so they get a shot to go work atone of these companies.
So there's a standing line ofgood quality candidates.
(24:46):
What you're really doing issorting and sifting and then
doing some screening, versusreally hunting and searching.
Now, that's not all internalrecruiters, but having worked
with hundreds and hundreds ofcompanies from all across the
globe, I can tell you that thereare some absolutely amazing
internal recruiters out there.
Some of them are my goodfriends and people that I really
(25:09):
trust, and there are some thatI work one of my best clients.
Our relationship is with theinternal talent team, right, not
necessarily always directlywith the hiring manager.
That's a rarity for us becausewe're almost always exclusive to
the hiring manager.
But some of these people areabsolutely on top of their game,
but the majority aren't, and Idon't mind saying that in this
(25:31):
public forum because it's thetruth.
So there are a lot of peoplewho become internal recruiters
because maybe they had aninterest in HR and then they got
kind of shuffled to thisfunction Again.
Most people don't go to collegeto become recruiters, right, but
they just kind of foundthemselves in that de facto
position.
Sometimes they're an officemanager who all of a sudden
(25:53):
starts recruiting more andrecruiting more and more and
more.
So they don't necessarilyalways have the same kind of
training that someone might getat an agency.
A lot of internal recruiterstried it at an agency.
Maybe they made it three months, six months or a year and it
was too hot in the kitchen forumand they left and fair enough.
It's not necessarily the easiestlife.
It's like my kids are like hey,I'm going to go get a job at a
(26:14):
big box staffing firm.
Like what do you think I'd be?
Like?
I don't know, man, go for it.
I support them, but I let themknow that there are a lot of
other ways to have a career andmake money, because it
absolutely isn't for everybody.
And the point I'm trying to makeis that you get these people in
here.
They're often quite young intheir 20s right, not always, but
(26:35):
often and they think that thehiring managers have some sort
of kingly status or queen statuswithin the organization.
They're not to push back,they're not to question them,
they're just to execute whatthey've been told to do.
They're low on the totem pole,they're the pawn on the chess
(26:57):
board okay, not the chess player, and certainly not the king or
the queen.
So people just take whatthey're told to do and they do
it by route.
So things like this whathappened with this offer and I'm
just kind of speaking to Fred'spoint right, but what can
happen to this offer can happenall the time, right?
(27:17):
It's a common mistake wheninternal recruiters are just
doing what they're told to do.
So that's why you want to havea conversation with the actual
hiring manager, I think that'swhat I recommended to you, jason
, which was hey, I want to jumpon the phone with you for 10
minutes, and you did, and itworked out.
Is that accurate?
Jason Zeikowitz (27:32):
Yeah, exactly.
No, no, that's the key point.
To bring up about thatnegotiation was to say hey, so
you got the offer from theinternal recruiter.
What you want to do for thenegotiation, you want to talk to
the hiring manager.
Don't negotiate with therecruiter.
Don't let them be the middleperson, the messenger.
Find a way to get in contact,to reconnect with a hiring
(27:56):
manager.
Let the recruiter know.
So this way they're staying asthat coordinator, they're
sitting on the chessboard astheir piece.
Exactly.
But you want to negotiatedirectly.
Have that conversation.
Josh Matthews (28:09):
That's right now.
I've got to put a caveat inhere.
That's when you're dealing withan internal recruiter and a
hiring manager and you areworking with a third party
agency, like Salesforce,staffing Okay, or any of our
other organizations that servicewhat we service, the
negotiation should always flowthrough the actual recruiter,
(28:32):
because this is someone who'sgot more experience and they're
there to help buffer thesituation, help communicate the
information in the right way.
As long as they're there andunderstand they're looking out
for the client, they're alsolooking out for their own
paycheck.
There's a lot of differentfactors that are in play here,
(28:53):
but it's one thing when you'redealing with an internal
recruiter.
It's another thing when you'redealing with an external
recruiter.
Yeah, good, I've really enjoyedthis anatomy of a question,
anatomy of a salary negotiation.
Who else has had someexperience in this?
Jason Zeikowitz (29:13):
Also here real quick, just tie up that step of
that direct conversation.
I messaged that I had twoemails ready to go.
Message the internal recruitersaying, listen, thanks for the
verbal offer, I'd like to have aconversation with the hiring
(29:33):
manager.
Then message the hiring managersaying, hey, I'd like to have a
conversation.
He's seeing the internalrecruiter, so they knew as well.
What was great is that theinternal recruiter they became
that ally for me because thehiring manager he didn't notice
the email right away.
The internal recruiter saidyeah, no problem, let me know if
(29:55):
you need support helpcoordinating an interview or a
follow-up meeting.
Sure enough, I was like, yeah,I didn't see any response to
that email.
Can you read the message?
Josh Matthews (30:07):
That's great.
Jason Zeikowitz (30:09):
I got an ally right there.
Josh Matthews (30:10):
Yeah, and you got a new gig.
Congratulations, jason.
Thanks for being on the stagetoday.
We happen to have someone witha heck of a lot of hiring
experience on the stage rightnow.
That's Fred Cadena.
I'd like to get Fred'sperspective.
By the way, fred, just betweenyou, me and everybody else who's
listening to this right now, Iam enjoying a Arturo Fuente, don
(30:32):
Carlos Bellacosa.
I don't know if you've ever hadthem before, cameron Rapper,
but they're quite nice.
Fred Cadena (30:37):
That sounds phenomenal.
Josh Matthews (30:40):
I actually just wanted to just say that no more
claps.
Fred Cadena (30:43):
I actually just came back from a walk I had a
rocket Patel San Andreas sittingoutside enjoying the lovely
summer weather here Fantastic.
Josh Matthews (30:55):
Fantastic.
I think I had a Patel lastnight.
Wonderful, All right.
Well, so Fred's been a vicepresident.
He's been in a number of seniorroles.
He launched the financialservices division for Silverline
.
Fred, you've had to make a lotof hires and probably some easy
(31:15):
decisions and probably somedifficult decisions relating to
salary and salary negotiations.
Is there a do you have a memoryof a time that someone just did
a really exceptional jobnegotiating their initial
compensation, working for you atany of the companies you've
served?
Fred Cadena (31:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think what it really camedown to was somebody who and I
won't say the company, they'restill there and doing
fantastically well, but it wassomebody that I was excited to
bring on board.
Similar to me, they were notconsultants before.
They had worked on the industryside.
(31:53):
They got connected withSalesforce.
They saw that Salesforce wasreally a great way to build
their career and wanted to makea transition to consulting.
It was going to be their firsttime in consulting and, based on
they were pretty senior, comingover from where they were
coming over from, but based onthe fact that consulting is a
(32:17):
little bit of a different gigthan working inside an industry
space and being a product owneron that side, it was a little
bit apprehensive.
They put together just really avery dynamite presentation.
One of the last things I askedthem to do was basically to put
together a presentation of whatthey were going to accomplish in
(32:38):
the role.
They did such a good job ofshowing me how they thought
methodically about what the rolewas, what they could bring to
the table, ideas that I hadn'treally thought about.
They really went above andbeyond in that presentation.
I was blown away.
As a result, I moved that offer, probably a good 20% from what
(33:04):
I was originally contemplating,that's not nothing.
That's not nothing on the baseand also added more to the
upside.
I changed the upside number.
Now, it wasn't easy, it wasn'tlike a gimme, but based on what
he thought he could bring to thetable and where he saw the
business going, we put a lotmore in that upside column as
(33:27):
well.
Like I said, he knocked it outof the park.
I've always been a big fan andI don't know curious your
thoughts and others on the callwhether it's for more of a
technical role or in this casethis was more of a sales type
role, business development sideof the house.
I've always been a big fan ofthe practical exercise.
(33:50):
I know there's mixed feelingson that, but I think, especially
somebody moving from a rolewhere they haven't necessarily
done X before, at least not inthat same way, that practical
exercise has always done a lotto give me confidence in
basically who's coming in thedoor.
I don't know your thoughts onthat, but that really moved the
(34:13):
needle for that guy.
Josh Matthews (34:15):
Yeah, look, that's a great story, fred.
I think it just goes to showlook revenue, whether you're in
sales or income, if you're, infact, a candidate for a new job.
The most money is made inmoments.
These are generally momentsyou've prepared for this
(34:38):
individual, prepared apresentation.
They probably practiced it.
Even if they're really good,naturally good, doing some
practice always makes it better.
It just does.
You could be the most naturalgifted public speaker in the
world, but if you haven'torganized your thoughts and your
content and practiced itmultiple times before you get
(34:59):
out there, it might be good, butit probably won't be great.
Everybody make sure that you'repaying attention to these
moments and preparing for themas best you can.
To answer your question, fred, apractical exercise as an aspect
of hiring, I think, isabsolutely awesome.
(35:20):
It's something that Iabsolutely encourage too.
I encourage my clients to do it.
We do our best to do that herein our company as well.
There are some challenges withit and it just depends on the
market.
Give me one second.
I'll give you an example.
We don't do it so much now, butwe used to do something that I
(35:43):
called the higher talentsolution.
This is a 12-month guarantee.
It costs more than our typicalhiring fees, but it comes with a
12-month guarantee.
It includes psychometrictesting, backdoor references,
deep dive on social mediaplatforms to get more of an
(36:03):
assessment of the person thatyou're bringing on, and
generally somewhere around ahalf day to maybe even a full
day of doing some type ofexercise or work.
We see it in technology a lot,right, whether it's just like a
little whiteboard test or, inthe example you shared, doing a
presentation.
You're hiring a businessdevelopment person.
(36:25):
They're going to have to dopresentations for clients, but
let's see how those presentationskills are, because it doesn't
matter how much you like someone, if they can't do the job, they
can't do the job.
The challenge with thepractical experience is in a
really tight candidate marketnot a tight job market when
there are very few candidates,high demand for those candidates
(36:46):
.
When they're getting calledevery single day by a variety of
different recruiters orleadership folks hiring managers
from different companies, theirtime is generally tapped.
They're usually working, sothey've got a full-time job.
They usually have some sort offamily or other outside
interests too.
Then they've got this part-timejob of doing interviews right.
(37:10):
They can throw in a press shirtand jump in front of a Zoom
meeting and knock out a45-minute video interview.
But can they take three or fourhours that evening to deliver a
coding test or a coding example, right?
Or some architecture examples?
(37:31):
That takes time, it takesthought.
If they're interviewing withfive, six, seven, eight
different companies and they allask them to do that, they're
probably going to say no toalmost everybody or at least
explain their time crunchsituation and then people will
forgive them for it, right?
So if your interview processtimeline is time-intensive and
(37:56):
takes longer, you may lose thecandidate because of these
practical exercises.
But if you can do somethingthat maybe it takes an hour of
prep and an hour of presentationor something like that, fair
enough, like, that's fine.
I used to.
I worked with a company calledSharp Labs of America and I
worked with them for many yearsand was in fact an external
(38:19):
recruiter.
But we were finding some reallyinteresting candidates.
This is before theSalesforcerecruitercom.
These folks are so rare.
I found them in Kyrgyzstan, Ifound them in Sweden, found them
in China, like they were allover.
These were very difficult,tricky, machine learning people.
(38:43):
They're PhDs and they'reusually still in their 20s, so
fairly new, and they had to do apresentation because they'd be
out there speaking at theseconferences where they're
basically.
In these conferences they'rebasically determining all of the
requirements for what MPEGcompression is Like some tricky,
(39:03):
complex stuff and they need tobe able to speak in front of
hundreds of other PhDs.
So they wanted to test them andsome of these folks are
brilliant and super smart, butthey couldn't present.
That means that some of themost important aspects of the
job they couldn't fulfill andthey were able to vet them out
because of this process.
So it's an important process,unless you need help tomorrow
and everybody wants thatcandidate, in which case you
(39:25):
might have to just take theslightly riskier standpoint and
forego it and try to uncoverwhether or not they're a valid
candidate in other ways.
Does that make sense?
Hopefully, yeah, you can unmute, fred.
Okay.
Fred Cadena (39:39):
I wasn't sure.
No, I think that makes perfectsense.
Yeah, go for it.
Sorry, no, I think that's 100%spot on and I think that you
know to your point whatever isbeing asked of you, that open
line of communication back towhat you could actually deliver.
I've certainly had candidatesthat have pushed back and said
look, I've got, you know, theseclient deliverables, I've got
(40:01):
this travel schedule, I've gotthe family life and everything
else.
This is not tenable, likeeverything's negotiable right,
including in the interviewprocess.
So I've definitely adjusted myaffidavits of candidates and
I've definitely pushed backmyself when I've been in an
interview process as well.
Josh Matthews (40:20):
Yeah, I'll tell you the best thing that anybody
can do when they're interviewingsomeone.
Right, we talk a lot on thisshow about what to do as an
interviewee, but as aninterviewer, it's a little bit
different, and one of the bestthings that you can do is
challenge your own initialassumptions.
Right, most people here knowwhat confirmation bias is, if
(40:42):
not, go to YouTube and type itup and learn a little bit about
it.
Okay, but the short story on itis that we go in sort of primed
believing that we're going todiscover something and that's
the only thing that we discover,and our mind blocks out other
information so that we canconfirm our initial beliefs.
And it happens all the time,guys, it's like you go into a
(41:04):
movie and you think it's goingto be crappy and you're just
looking for all the things thatare wrong with it, versus like
knowing nothing about that filmand maybe being pleasantly
surprised.
So that's a stupid example, butthe reality is is this when
you're interviewing a candidateand candidates this is a good
thing to pay attention to.
When you're interviewing acandidate, you need to think
(41:24):
okay, all of a sudden, you'vegot these feelings like oh my
God, I really like her, she'sgreat.
She seems smart, she can talk,she could do this job.
I like her background.
The resume is polished.
There weren't any spellingmistakes, right, yeah, they're
great.
And oh, by the way, I have aweek to fill this position or
else this senior vice presidentis going to pull the requisition
(41:45):
and give it to another district.
Like, I need to fill this rightnow.
So I've got all this pressureto make this higher and so all
of a sudden you stop looking foranything bad and you're only
looking for the good, and you'remostly going from your gut and
you're mostly basing things onthe rapport that you have.
(42:07):
Now, if you're in my industryand you're talking with
recruiters, most recruiters arenice people.
They like to talk to otherpeople and they're curious about
others.
So it's generally pretty easyto develop rapport with a guy
like me or Stephen, right, sothat's not hard.
But if that's all you're doing,you're not going to uncover
where things can go wrong.
So if you really like someone,the best thing you can do is try
(42:30):
to dig deep and find out whatfind something about this person
that's going to go negative,and so you really need to press
them on.
Talk to me about how you handlestress right.
Give them situational andbehavioral questions that can
probe a little bit further andgo into their past and ask them.
You know nobody likes these,but tell me about a time when,
(42:53):
blank, right Now, and if it'sover prepared, ask another one
that's a little bit similar.
Give me another example.
See, if it's just a preparedanswer so you can push back.
But you need to find a reasonnot to like someone and it's
critical.
And I'll tell you a quick story.
I had a gal come in and, by theway I was just referring to
like this person comes in andyou've got rapport and it seems
(43:13):
like they can do the job andeverything's great.
So that was me.
I was hiring for a recruiter.
This is back when I was workingat Robert Haff technology and
the creative group and I washiring a recruiter and she came
in and she's we couldn't findanybody.
I mean, we'd been looking forweeks and weeks and weeks and
finally used to be a line outthe door, but in those days
(43:35):
nobody wanted to join.
So we'd been looking foreverand finally got a good candidate
.
She comes in.
What presents?
Well, very friendly, nice, youknow, ask good questions, gave
good background and I was justsort of like great start Monday.
I mean, I just like ate it, Ijust like bonked so hard.
(43:57):
I didn't take any of my ownadvice and I'll tell you, when
she showed up a couple of weekslater, it wasn't Monday, but it
was a Monday a couple of weekslater and she showed up.
I'm telling you, by nooneverybody and I don't know if
you remember this particularhire, stephen, but by noon me
and everybody else on the team,and probably her, knew it wasn't
(44:18):
going to work out and it didn't.
It was over within a month.
If I could have made it overthat day, I would have, but HR
wouldn't allow it.
You know it was going toreflect too poorly on us.
We had to give her a chance.
But it didn't work out.
And I knew right away.
And I knew whose fault it was.
And it was mine, 100% my fault.
I wanted so badly to fill thisposition I stopped paying
(44:42):
attention, I stopped caringenough to find out all the
reasons why she might actuallydamage the team.
Well, she did temporarily untilshe left.
Shame on me.
Lesson learned Clearly I'velearned my lesson, but that sort
of thing happens.
So you've got to be realcareful, and I was not the one
(45:03):
in power, I was not at the time,prepared to walk away from it,
speaking to our earlier pointsabout negotiation.
So, vanessa, are you still withus?
Maybe not.
So we're having some it's nottechnical difficulties.
No, I'm still here.
Vanessa Grant (45:20):
I'm still here, I just couldn't find the dang
button.
Yeah, I've been wanderingaround.
I finally made it to TahoeDream Inn and I've been asking
people if they know anythingabout negotiation and I would
say, pretty much surprisingly,across the board, everybody's
fairly bad at it.
I'm glad that we're talkingabout that.
Josh Matthews (45:39):
Well, a lot of people who are good at
negotiation don't get intotechnology unless it's in sales.
It's just one of those thingsPeople who aren't great at
technology tend not to becometechnical architects.
It's just kind of how it goes.
But I think that, because we dolike to take these little talk
shows that we do here on Twitter, spaces can run a little bit
(45:59):
long.
I think what we'll do is justkind of switch the format.
This has been a great episode sofar for the podcast and we'll
go ahead and produce this andwe'll release it so that
everybody can listen to it.
Probably next Wednesday, nextThursday, probably next
Wednesday, we'll release it soyou can check it out on your
favorite platform.
But let's go ahead and startanew for the second half, which
(46:22):
will be released in two weeks,so that everybody's got some
content coming from theSalesforce career show every
single week.
All we're going to do is wrapit up here with you guys.
Fred Cadena, great to have you.
Jason, thank you for theinteresting and personal story
and the win, and congratulationsagain on the job.
Anthony, thank you for thefeedback, the background and all
(46:46):
of the applause in there too.
No one go away, because we'regoing to come right back and
we're going to be talking aboutanswering some of these
questions that we've receivedfrom our listeners over the last
week or so.
Here we go, and thanks again,everybody, for joining us on
this podcast.
And now the number one audio program that helps you
to hire, get hired and soarhigher in the Salesforce
ecosystem.
It's the Salesforce career showwith Josh Matthews and Vanessa
Grant.
Josh Matthews (00:20):
All right, welcome everybody.
Thanks for the applause, barry,anthony.
Okay, everybody sit down.
Please have a seat.
So welcome to the show,everybody, and to the live show
and also to the podcast.
This is your host, joshMatthews.
Our co-host, vanessa Grant, isstuck in a little bit of traffic
on her way to Tahoe Dreaming.
(00:41):
We were hoping she'd be thereon the street able to interact
with some of the attendees, andwe may get that a little bit
later on in the show, but wealso may not.
But that's okay because we arewell prepared.
We have some fantastic peoplehere on the panel, a lot of our
usuals, including our friendsJason, fred and Anthony.
We've got one of my partners incrime, steven Greger, from
(01:05):
thesalesforrestrecruitercom.
That's the business that I runand if you want to check it out,
you can go to guess whatThesalesforrestrecruitercom and
check it out.
New website coming out in abouta month.
So what we're going to do todayinstead is we're going to have
just a little bit of a chit chat, see how everybody's doing, and
then we're going to dive intosome good questions that we've
received from our audiencemembers.
(01:26):
These are people who'velistened to the podcast but
maybe haven't been able toattend one of our live Twitter
Spaces shows like we're on rightnow, so we'll get to the bottom
of all good things.
So let me just check in withour panel here.
How's everybody doing today?
Fred Cadena (01:43):
Fantastic, it's a beautiful Wednesday.
Josh Matthews (01:45):
All right, and that's Fred Cadena.
Fred, give us a little introand tell us about your podcast,
too, while you're at it.
Fred Cadena (01:51):
Sure, thanks.
It's awesome to be here.
I've been a long time listenerand loved everything that you've
been doing with the show andthe podcast.
Fred Cadena, I've been in theSalesforce ecosystem for about
16 years, six years as acustomer, 10 years now in
consulting.
I also recently launched,relaunched a podcast.
(02:13):
I guess I should say I launchedit at the start of COVID, kind
of petered out for a little bit,relaunched it a few months ago.
It's called Banking onDisruption.
It is about digitaltransformation with an emphasis
on financial services, bankingsector topics, but certainly not
banking exclusively and very,very tied in with the Salesforce
(02:34):
ecosystem.
This last episode we had lastweek was all about AI.
So if you're just in AI, pleasego check that out and you can
find us atbankingondisruptioncom.
Josh Matthews (02:46):
Thank you, fred, and are you available on all the
major platforms, includingApple, spotify, etc.
Fred Cadena (02:54):
Apple, Spotify, the whole gamut.
So if you can find us, you'renot looking.
Josh Matthews (03:01):
Okay, terrific.
Now, as I mentioned, we havesome questions that were sent in
by the audience and we're goingto go ahead and address that.
In the meantime, we've gotVanessa has joined us.
Welcome, Vanessa.
Vanessa Grant (03:13):
Hi, sorry I'm driving.
I'm on my way to Tahoe Dream.
Josh Matthews (03:17):
Okay, all right, vanessa.
Vanessa, give us a quickrundown.
Who are you?
What are you all about?
Vanessa Grant (03:23):
I am Vanessa Grant.
I am on my way to TahoeDreaming, where I'm going to be
speaking about diagramming withJanine Markhart, and I am a
nine-time certified, been in theecosystem for 13 years, love
co-hosting here, even if I'm onthe side of a cliff, and I've
(03:44):
been helping people with theirSalesforce careers for probably
three years now.
Josh Matthews (03:49):
Yeah, you have been and you've done an
incredible job.
And, by the way, I know thatroad, I know that cliff.
It's quite steep, so drivecarefully.
Vanessa Grant (03:58):
It's just about a hero.
Then I just got to findinternet and I should be all
right, but sorry for running alittle late today.
Josh Matthews (04:03):
No, it's okay, Don't worry about it.
It's okay we can edit this downlike it never even happened,
but we probably won't because wejust don't have time.
So let's kick off the show witha quick convo with our friend,
jason Zikawitz.
Jason's a regular contributorhere on the podcast and on a
(04:23):
live show, but we want tocongratulate I kind of jumped
the gun a little bit earlier,two weeks ago or maybe last week
if you tuned into the podcastcongratulating Jason on
something, but no one knows,because I sort of caught myself
and then shut up.
But what I was actually wantingto congratulate him on was a
(04:44):
new position.
So, jason, give us the quick20-second rundown.
What are you doing?
What's your new gig, buddy?
Jason Zeikowitz (04:51):
Thank you, Thank you, yeah, yeah and you
know.
Thank you, Josh, you knew theinside scoop because you really
you were great in coaching me,helping me with that interview
process.
New gig is as a revenue cloudconsultant, so really excited,
going from the training side tothe configuring side.
I've just had a progressivejourney, being an end user super
(05:14):
user, trainer of users, and nowI am the producer, the builder.
So you know, working my way tothat back end really excited.
Josh Matthews (05:24):
So happy for you, my friend, really really happy
for you, and you know you'vebeen training for a long time
and you've you know you've putyour time in.
I know that you are you okay ifI speak frankly about some of
the things that we talked about?
Because I think that this is animportant learning opportunity
for anyone who is interested innegotiating on their own behalf.
(05:47):
And I don't mean negotiatingfor a better offer, because you
know you just want more money.
I mean because you're actuallyworth that money.
Like we always said when we'renegotiating our compensation,
whether it's with theorganization that we are in and
we want to raise, or if we areinterviewing with a new company
(06:08):
and we're trying to express ourvalue and be compensated
accordingly for it can be alittle bit difficult, and I
would say that the majority ofpeople struggle in this area.
In other words, they may want ajob so badly that they stop
thinking about the income.
I don't mean that they're notthinking about the income.
(06:30):
I'm just saying that they makeit less important.
Getting a yes, getting the offer, being able to say yes and get
out of whatever situationthey're in right now takes
priority, but we've got to crossthat finish line with
everything, including the rightamount of compensation, and if
we don't, six months later or ayear later, we may feel
(06:50):
undervalued and we may begin tobuild resentment, and that can
affect our relationships at workand our performance at work.
So it's not a great thing foryour career to be paid or, to
excuse me, to be underpaid orpaid the wrong amount.
So talk to us about whathappened in the negotiations for
you with this position and, bythe way, this is a job that
(07:11):
Jason found on his own, butwe're friends, so I gave him a
little bit of coaching on this.
But go ahead and walk usthrough that.
Jason Zeikowitz (07:17):
Well, actually I found it through my network,
which is the power of networking.
So, yeah, I kind of found itthrough my own, through
networking, and when I did getthe offer it was a surprise
because I've been in theSalesforce ecosystem as a
consultant for 2021.
So this initial offer was 25%less than what we're now and at
(07:43):
first I was just like you know,it was a bit of a shock, but I
was actually even thinking ofwilling to take it, just because
of the opportunity to be aconfigurator and then just be
able to work up from there,built from that experience.
So, but then, after you know,talking to Josh and other people
in my camp about justunderstanding the mathematics of
(08:06):
it that you know for takingthat type of cut, I could just
simply take a course to be ableto get that experience.
Josh Matthews (08:12):
Yeah, I'm just going to jump in here to kind of
describe what you mean.
So one of the things that Ishared with you is, if you're
going to take a $25,000 pay cutwhich is what was that's what
the original ask was, and youknow, this doesn't mean that the
organization that you knowhired you is trying to beat you
up on money or anything.
Maybe they just didn't know,right.
(08:32):
So, no harm, no foul.
But when we're trying to breakinto something and we have to
understand, there's a cost,there's a cost for education,
there's a cost for beingrelatively or moderately risky
or high risk for the new company, and so that's why, you know,
(08:54):
entry level positions pay lessthan senior level positions and
senior leadership positions.
Right, it's just how it works.
Okay so, but when you're lookingat a $25,000 delta and that
might not mean as much whenyou're already making 225.
Right, the 225 to 225 delta isnot, you know, as big a deal,
(09:17):
right, and let's just mute whilewe're not talking, please.
But the reality is is when youare working and it's, you know,
literally close to 25% of yourincome, now that's massive,
really, really massive, and youcan just keep the job you've got
.
It's been $25,000.
That gets you halfway throughyour MBA or whatever program
(09:39):
that you want to do.
It's not nothing, it's a lot ofmoney.
Okay, keep going, buddy.
Jason Zeikowitz (09:44):
Yeah, exactly, and so I think that's the
important part to consider, asyou mentioned, the resentment
that might come later withtaking that and also
understanding that it wasn't.
The original offer wasn't givenas a form of the seat or
anything, it was just like apart of like oh, for this
position, this is the, the payrank.
(10:05):
So there was just amisalignment of where I was and
what the position was and justsimply having a conversation,
being frank, saying, okay,listen, I, you know there was a
misunderstanding when I wasinterviewing.
I didn't think the pay rangewould be there.
This is where I'm currently atand that's my minimum request.
(10:28):
So, with that said, the hiringmanager said that he was going
to fight for me because hedidn't want.
You know, he thought that wasunderstandable, he thought I was
a good candidate, so he would.
He wouldn't be able to, hewould have to get that approval,
but he was willing to step upto that for that.
So I think that was reallygreat and just, you know, you
(10:49):
know stating my value and andyou know it was a little
nerve-wracking at first.
So I'm happy that I wasnegotiating from a position of
strength, that I wasn'tdesperate to take a position,
thinking that, okay, if theycan't, that this is simply their
budget for this position andthey can't go beyond it, okay
then I should walk away.
But if they have thatflexibility and this could be,
(11:14):
you know, even better situation,because it shows they have
flexibility and this also showsthat, that that now there's
there's expectations, it's, it'sthere's expectations for me to
do.
Well, look, man, you stood upfor yourself, as what happened,
jason.
Josh Matthews (11:30):
Okay, and that means that you're going to stand
up for the company on behalf ofthem when you're working with
challenging clients that aremaking demands that are
unreasonable.
That's what it demonstrates,right?
And and here's the thing, guys,I mean, at the end of the day,
asking for something is just aquestion.
It's just a question.
It's not going to kill you,right, it's not going to hurt
(11:51):
you.
Now, keep in mind, there arecompanies that and I've heard
stories about companies where,if you just don't accept the
thing that they offer, if youtry to negotiate, they're like
well, we don't even you know,like you're out, we're not even
going to deal with you.
And to those people I say good,right, like, don't work for
people who are like that youknow.
(12:12):
Like that's fricking insanitythat people would be.
Thank you, fred.
Like that's fricking insanity.
Like why would someone be bethat way?
Better to know early, butstanding up for yourself and
asking the question, jason, bythe way, jason was close to just
saying yes.
The good thing is is he has anetwork.
He reached out to me, reachedout to a couple of other people,
(12:34):
right, which, in thoseconversations, was able to
figure out.
Well, this is how I ask, andthis is why I'm asking.
And so now we can paint a storyin about 30 seconds or a minute
for the hiring manager, right?
And what do you say?
He said he's going to go fightfor you.
Now I mean, that's magical.
(12:54):
But people leave money on thetable, whether you're selling
your business, whether you'reselling your car, whether you're
selling your house or whetheryou're selling yourself into a
job.
Most people aren't particularlygood at asking for the thing
that they want.
They're not even good at askingfor the thing that they want in
relationships with people theylove.
So why would they be any betterat it when they're actually,
(13:17):
you know, talking to a strangerabout a job?
If anything, they're going tohave even more fear than then,
right?
So this is just a big call toaction for everybody who's
currently in the negotiatingprocess.
Expecting to be in the jobmarket, is actively in the job
market.
Look, the people who winnegotiations are the people who
(13:38):
are willing to walk away.
It's not more complex than that.
You guys still got to be nice,but it's not that much more
complicated.
I mean, there's a whole libraryof books on how to negotiate.
But if you start there, right,if you start from a position of
strength.
That's a good thing.
But even if he wasn't in aposition of strength, he could
have acted like he was in aposition of strength and no
(14:00):
one's the wiser.
That doesn't mean con someone,it just means ask the question.
That's just to psych yourselfup, to give yourself the
motivation, the energy and let'sface it the courage to ask what
you want, ask for what you want.
Anthony, you had your hand up,pipe up buddy.
Anthony Rodriguez (14:16):
Hey, first off, just a big shout out to
Jason.
Congrats, man, on your newposition.
I started with Booz Allen abouta month ago and I had my
network worth its weight in gold.
You got to take time to findthese people, connect with these
people and just learn from them.
And you know my mentor, JaneenMarquardt.
(14:38):
She's riding with Vanessa Grandright now.
Shout out to the legend myfavorite mermaid.
What's up Janeen.
She helped me so much.
And when I was getting startedI ran into Josh Matthews.
We had a conversation and hemade me realize that there was a
lot I wasn't seeing.
You know, there's a lot of myexpectations.
How it should be and how it iswas so different, you know, and
(15:01):
once I started I had some of thebest advice and he's like
listen, there's going to be alot, your brain's going to
overheat, but you can't takethat work home.
You got to be with the familywhen you're home.
You got to let the CPU unit onyour shoulders cool back down.
And then you go hard againtomorrow and eventually it
starts to catch up and you feel,you know, like you're less like
(15:24):
you're racing and more likeyou're jogging.
Josh Matthews (15:27):
There you go, buddy.
Yeah, and then he gave me andCasey a lift last time we were
at Florida Dreaming in the rain.
So thanks, anthony, it wasgreat to meet you then, and
you've been on the show eversince.
So appreciate you, buddy.
So, vanessa, what about you?
I'd like to hear from you, andI'd like to hear from Fred and
Stephen too, about thisexperience of you know.
(15:52):
Have you had an experiencewhere you've had to negotiate
your compensation for a newposition?
What happened?
Vanessa Grant (16:00):
I'll be honest, this is actually a huge weak
point in my game.
I'm actually listening intentlyand I was thinking about asking
how you get better at it andyou were mentioning you know
reading about it, but it ispartly like a confidence issue
and also, just, you know the artof negotiation.
I took a negotiation class whenI was getting my MBA and I
(16:20):
remember they had us do thisexercise where we had to
negotiate with somebody else andI thought I had a great deal at
the end of it and I got theworst deal in the class and it's
just something I generally notfelt good at.
So while I have had tonegotiate, you know my way of
negotiating so far is just don'taccept the first offer in
(16:42):
general, because I think it'susually expected that you don't.
But that's kind of as far asI've gotten.
Josh Matthews (16:49):
Yeah, and look, I mean, it's a normal experience
and let's face it, nice peopletend to be like that.
They tend to be nice.
They feel like, if they ask formore, that they're somehow
going to be putting someone offoffending them, or maybe that
person might characterize themas not a nice person because
they're asking for somethingright.
(17:10):
But nice people ask for thingsall the time.
You get to be both you know.
So, just so you know, Vanessa,my 18th birthday from my father,
my 18th birthday present thatis from my father was a two day
Keras negotiating seminar.
That's the family I'm from,guys, Right.
(17:32):
So, and I went to that and,unlike you and I'm going to brag
for just a moment because I wasjust a kid, I was 18 years old,
right, I showed up to thisconference in a Guatemalan shirt
, my long hippie hair,Birkenstocks, baggy, army
colored pants and there areabout 45, 50 of us in the two
(17:52):
day seminar and on day two wehad probably some sort of
similar negotiating exercise andI won out of everybody.
Everybody else was in a suit,there were buyers from major
corporations and then me, youknow, with my long curly hair
and, you know, toes sticking out.
(18:13):
So that was kind of funny, butyeah, a little bit of a
different experience.
Fred Cadena (18:18):
One of the key to your success, though, and you
know a little contrarianviewpoint here, but and not in a
flippant way, but there issomething to like not be I was
going to say not caring if youwould or not, but like being
willing to walk away.
Right, all the button up peoplein the suits were probably
taking it a little bit moreserious than you were.
(18:40):
You were able to be a littlebit freer, approaching it the
way that you did, and I'm notsaying that people shouldn't
take employment negotiationsseriously, but that would be my
number one tip is if you'redesperate to get the job, you're
not negotiating from a positionof strength.
So you know, know what you'reworth and be willing to walk
away if it's not the number thatyou need.
Josh Matthews (19:06):
Yeah, I think there's a real valid point there
, fred, I've given it somethought.
I thought, well, like nobodywants to beat up some 18 year
old kid in negotiations and makethem lose, right, it's like
playing chess.
It's like playing chess with asix year old.
Like you want them to play thegame again I mean, unless you're
you know, the Queens gambitgirl, gambit girl, like you know
(19:26):
with the tough janitor trainer.
Like maybe, maybe, fine, right,but I can tell you this, like
if I played chess with my kids alot when I was, when they were
little, and a lot of backgammon,and if I didn't let them, you
know, get some easy moves, likethey'd never want to come back
and play right, so, like I, Ihave given thought to that.
But if I really reflect on onwhy I won and this isn't the why
(19:50):
Josh won a competition 32 yearsago, show, right, it's not
right.
But.
But I've, I've thought about itbecause it was clearly, and you
know I have this memory I canremember sitting there with this
guy and wondering why he wasscrewing up so badly, like it
was over, like the cost oftrucking or whatever the thing
was the little game, and I justremember thinking this guy's
(20:13):
bonking so hard, like so hard.
Why is he bonking so hard?
He's got a tie on Like that,didn't?
I didn't understand only peoplethat I'd ever been around that
had ties with my dad and thepeople who worked for him.
And you know, I was walkingaround with my dad and watching
him negotiate like everything mywhole life, right, and so to me
(20:33):
it was second nature.
But the truth is, all I did istook the notes that they they
said if someone says this, dothis, and if they do this, then
you say that All I did is whatthey taught me.
Like literally, it's not like Iwas gifted, I just was like
wanting to learn.
So I took some notes and whenyou know, he said you know X?
(20:55):
I said, well, how can I do that?
And then he caved Like itwasn't a big deal, you know,
it's just so when you go tothese seminars Like for all of
those folks who might belistening right now on their way
to Tahoe Dreaming, like, takesome freaking notes and believe
the person on stage, like youshould probably start there,
start from a position of trustand believe, believe the expert
(21:17):
that this is how it works.
If you start second guessing itor thinking, nah, I'm not going
to do that.
Well then, you just missed thepoint, pal.
So shame on you.
Fred Cadena (21:27):
You, you if you want any of my other thoughts,
you tell me to not to share them, but the the other thing I was
going to say is like I amsurprised that it got down to
the offer and there was so muchmisalignment.
You know, I would suggest andJosh, you're the expert here but
there should not be a surprisewhen the offer comes down right,
(21:49):
like they should know what yourexpectations are, where you
need to be and if, if that's notwhere they are, then there's
probably no reason for you guysto waste each other's time.
And to your point.
Josh Matthews (22:01):
yeah, I think it was a verbal offer.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, no, keep going, fred.
But yeah, you're right, likethat's.
That's a little late in theconversation.
If we're getting to the pointof verbal offer and it hasn't
been discussed yet, thensomething's off.
Someone missed.
Someone missed a step on theirtick like little checklist,
right.
Fred Cadena (22:21):
Or maybe I mean, I've had people come, you know,
to me in the past, you know, inin roles that I've been going
for, and saying, look, I knowyou said you need to be here,
this is really where we're at,you know what can you do?
And that's a differentconversation, right?
But to just, you know, sayhere's the offer and this is
what it is, and it's stilloutside of the salary
expectation, that just feelsreally off to me.
Josh Matthews (22:45):
It does, but I don't think that it was coming
straight from the hiring manager.
I think it was coming from aninternal.
Was it an internal recruiter,jason?
Jason Zeikowitz (22:53):
Yeah, exactly, internal recruiter.
And the weird part is that.
So I was already working withthe internal recruiter for a
different position where theygave me an offer above what I
requested.
So there was another positionthat at the first interview we
were talking salary, and so thatposition I did get a verbal
(23:17):
offer for.
They went up freezing thatposition so I didn't move
forward with that position, butit was actually that position
was higher than I even asked forand it was so.
Later that same internalrecruiter got back to me with
another position and that'swhere I was just so surprised,
because the first position washigher than I asked for and this
(23:37):
one was so much lower and therewas no talk at the beginning.
Josh Matthews (23:43):
There's a reason for that.
Let me tell you why.
Okay, I'm just going to cut tothe chase here real quick and
it's super straightforward.
The reality is is that externalrecruiters that's what I am,
that's what Steven Greger isright, that's what Jesse is on
our team we are external orthird party headhunters and
recruiters, so internalrecruiters have a different
(24:04):
function than us.
Their job is to help grease thewheels of bringing new
employees onto the team.
Sometimes they need to go outand find them themselves.
Sometimes they're just there tomanage some of the process.
I've got friends that haveworked at Tesla, google, amazon,
disney and Apple.
(24:25):
Okay, and you don't need to doa lot of recruiting in those
companies.
They have top professionalsfrom top schools, people with
deep experience.
Some people will spend 10 yearsbuilding up their career just
so they get a shot to go work atone of these companies.
So there's a standing line ofgood quality candidates.
(24:46):
What you're really doing issorting and sifting and then
doing some screening, versusreally hunting and searching.
Now, that's not all internalrecruiters, but having worked
with hundreds and hundreds ofcompanies from all across the
globe, I can tell you that thereare some absolutely amazing
internal recruiters out there.
Some of them are my goodfriends and people that I really
(25:09):
trust, and there are some thatI work one of my best clients.
Our relationship is with theinternal talent team, right, not
necessarily always directlywith the hiring manager.
That's a rarity for us becausewe're almost always exclusive to
the hiring manager.
But some of these people areabsolutely on top of their game,
but the majority aren't, and Idon't mind saying that in this
(25:31):
public forum because it's thetruth.
So there are a lot of peoplewho become internal recruiters
because maybe they had aninterest in HR and then they got
kind of shuffled to thisfunction Again.
Most people don't go to collegeto become recruiters, right, but
they just kind of foundthemselves in that de facto
position.
Sometimes they're an officemanager who all of a sudden
(25:53):
starts recruiting more andrecruiting more and more and
more.
So they don't necessarilyalways have the same kind of
training that someone might getat an agency.
A lot of internal recruiterstried it at an agency.
Maybe they made it three months, six months or a year and it
was too hot in the kitchen forumand they left and fair enough.
It's not necessarily the easiestlife.
It's like my kids are like hey,I'm going to go get a job at a
(26:14):
big box staffing firm.
Like what do you think I'd be?
Like?
I don't know, man, go for it.
I support them, but I let themknow that there are a lot of
other ways to have a career andmake money, because it
absolutely isn't for everybody.
And the point I'm trying to makeis that you get these people in
here.
They're often quite young intheir 20s right, not always, but
(26:35):
often and they think that thehiring managers have some sort
of kingly status or queen statuswithin the organization.
They're not to push back,they're not to question them,
they're just to execute whatthey've been told to do.
They're low on the totem pole,they're the pawn on the chess
(26:57):
board okay, not the chess player, and certainly not the king or
the queen.
So people just take whatthey're told to do and they do
it by route.
So things like this whathappened with this offer and I'm
just kind of speaking to Fred'spoint right, but what can
happen to this offer can happenall the time, right?
(27:17):
It's a common mistake wheninternal recruiters are just
doing what they're told to do.
So that's why you want to havea conversation with the actual
hiring manager, I think that'swhat I recommended to you, jason
, which was hey, I want to jumpon the phone with you for 10
minutes, and you did, and itworked out.
Is that accurate?
Jason Zeikowitz (27:32):
Yeah, exactly.
No, no, that's the key point.
To bring up about thatnegotiation was to say hey, so
you got the offer from theinternal recruiter.
What you want to do for thenegotiation, you want to talk to
the hiring manager.
Don't negotiate with therecruiter.
Don't let them be the middleperson, the messenger.
Find a way to get in contact,to reconnect with a hiring
(27:56):
manager.
Let the recruiter know.
So this way they're staying asthat coordinator, they're
sitting on the chessboard astheir piece.
Exactly.
But you want to negotiatedirectly.
Have that conversation.
Josh Matthews (28:09):
That's right now.
I've got to put a caveat inhere.
That's when you're dealing withan internal recruiter and a
hiring manager and you areworking with a third party
agency, like Salesforce,staffing Okay, or any of our
other organizations that servicewhat we service, the
negotiation should always flowthrough the actual recruiter,
(28:32):
because this is someone who'sgot more experience and they're
there to help buffer thesituation, help communicate the
information in the right way.
As long as they're there andunderstand they're looking out
for the client, they're alsolooking out for their own
paycheck.
There's a lot of differentfactors that are in play here,
(28:53):
but it's one thing when you'redealing with an internal
recruiter.
It's another thing when you'redealing with an external
recruiter.
Yeah, good, I've really enjoyedthis anatomy of a question,
anatomy of a salary negotiation.
Who else has had someexperience in this?
Jason Zeikowitz (29:13):
Also here real quick, just tie up that step of
that direct conversation.
I messaged that I had twoemails ready to go.
Message the internal recruitersaying, listen, thanks for the
verbal offer, I'd like to have aconversation with the hiring
(29:33):
manager.
Then message the hiring managersaying, hey, I'd like to have a
conversation.
He's seeing the internalrecruiter, so they knew as well.
What was great is that theinternal recruiter they became
that ally for me because thehiring manager he didn't notice
the email right away.
The internal recruiter saidyeah, no problem, let me know if
(29:55):
you need support helpcoordinating an interview or a
follow-up meeting.
Sure enough, I was like, yeah,I didn't see any response to
that email.
Can you read the message?
Josh Matthews (30:07):
That's great.
Jason Zeikowitz (30:09):
I got an ally right there.
Josh Matthews (30:10):
Yeah, and you got a new gig.
Congratulations, jason.
Thanks for being on the stagetoday.
We happen to have someone witha heck of a lot of hiring
experience on the stage rightnow.
That's Fred Cadena.
I'd like to get Fred'sperspective.
By the way, fred, just betweenyou, me and everybody else who's
listening to this right now, Iam enjoying a Arturo Fuente, don
(30:32):
Carlos Bellacosa.
I don't know if you've ever hadthem before, cameron Rapper,
but they're quite nice.
Fred Cadena (30:37):
That sounds phenomenal.
Josh Matthews (30:40):
I actually just wanted to just say that no more
claps.
Fred Cadena (30:43):
I actually just came back from a walk I had a
rocket Patel San Andreas sittingoutside enjoying the lovely
summer weather here Fantastic.
Josh Matthews (30:55):
Fantastic.
I think I had a Patel lastnight.
Wonderful, All right.
Well, so Fred's been a vicepresident.
He's been in a number of seniorroles.
He launched the financialservices division for Silverline
.
Fred, you've had to make a lotof hires and probably some easy
(31:15):
decisions and probably somedifficult decisions relating to
salary and salary negotiations.
Is there a do you have a memoryof a time that someone just did
a really exceptional jobnegotiating their initial
compensation, working for you atany of the companies you've
served?
Fred Cadena (31:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think what it really camedown to was somebody who and I
won't say the company, they'restill there and doing
fantastically well, but it wassomebody that I was excited to
bring on board.
Similar to me, they were notconsultants before.
They had worked on the industryside.
(31:53):
They got connected withSalesforce.
They saw that Salesforce wasreally a great way to build
their career and wanted to makea transition to consulting.
It was going to be their firsttime in consulting and, based on
they were pretty senior, comingover from where they were
coming over from, but based onthe fact that consulting is a
(32:17):
little bit of a different gigthan working inside an industry
space and being a product owneron that side, it was a little
bit apprehensive.
They put together just really avery dynamite presentation.
One of the last things I askedthem to do was basically to put
together a presentation of whatthey were going to accomplish in
(32:38):
the role.
They did such a good job ofshowing me how they thought
methodically about what the rolewas, what they could bring to
the table, ideas that I hadn'treally thought about.
They really went above andbeyond in that presentation.
I was blown away.
As a result, I moved that offer, probably a good 20% from what
(33:04):
I was originally contemplating,that's not nothing.
That's not nothing on the baseand also added more to the
upside.
I changed the upside number.
Now, it wasn't easy, it wasn'tlike a gimme, but based on what
he thought he could bring to thetable and where he saw the
business going, we put a lotmore in that upside column as
(33:27):
well.
Like I said, he knocked it outof the park.
I've always been a big fan andI don't know curious your
thoughts and others on the callwhether it's for more of a
technical role or in this casethis was more of a sales type
role, business development sideof the house.
I've always been a big fan ofthe practical exercise.
(33:50):
I know there's mixed feelingson that, but I think, especially
somebody moving from a rolewhere they haven't necessarily
done X before, at least not inthat same way, that practical
exercise has always done a lotto give me confidence in
basically who's coming in thedoor.
I don't know your thoughts onthat, but that really moved the
(34:13):
needle for that guy.
Josh Matthews (34:15):
Yeah, look, that's a great story, fred.
I think it just goes to showlook revenue, whether you're in
sales or income, if you're, infact, a candidate for a new job.
The most money is made inmoments.
These are generally momentsyou've prepared for this
(34:38):
individual, prepared apresentation.
They probably practiced it.
Even if they're really good,naturally good, doing some
practice always makes it better.
It just does.
You could be the most naturalgifted public speaker in the
world, but if you haven'torganized your thoughts and your
content and practiced itmultiple times before you get
(34:59):
out there, it might be good, butit probably won't be great.
Everybody make sure that you'repaying attention to these
moments and preparing for themas best you can.
To answer your question, fred, apractical exercise as an aspect
of hiring, I think, isabsolutely awesome.
(35:20):
It's something that Iabsolutely encourage too.
I encourage my clients to do it.
We do our best to do that herein our company as well.
There are some challenges withit and it just depends on the
market.
Give me one second.
I'll give you an example.
We don't do it so much now, butwe used to do something that I
(35:43):
called the higher talentsolution.
This is a 12-month guarantee.
It costs more than our typicalhiring fees, but it comes with a
12-month guarantee.
It includes psychometrictesting, backdoor references,
deep dive on social mediaplatforms to get more of an
(36:03):
assessment of the person thatyou're bringing on, and
generally somewhere around ahalf day to maybe even a full
day of doing some type ofexercise or work.
We see it in technology a lot,right, whether it's just like a
little whiteboard test or, inthe example you shared, doing a
presentation.
You're hiring a businessdevelopment person.
(36:25):
They're going to have to dopresentations for clients, but
let's see how those presentationskills are, because it doesn't
matter how much you like someone, if they can't do the job, they
can't do the job.
The challenge with thepractical experience is in a
really tight candidate marketnot a tight job market when
there are very few candidates,high demand for those candidates
(36:46):
.
When they're getting calledevery single day by a variety of
different recruiters orleadership folks hiring managers
from different companies, theirtime is generally tapped.
They're usually working, sothey've got a full-time job.
They usually have some sort offamily or other outside
interests too.
Then they've got this part-timejob of doing interviews right.
(37:10):
They can throw in a press shirtand jump in front of a Zoom
meeting and knock out a45-minute video interview.
But can they take three or fourhours that evening to deliver a
coding test or a coding example, right?
Or some architecture examples?
(37:31):
That takes time, it takesthought.
If they're interviewing withfive, six, seven, eight
different companies and they allask them to do that, they're
probably going to say no toalmost everybody or at least
explain their time crunchsituation and then people will
forgive them for it, right?
So if your interview processtimeline is time-intensive and
(37:56):
takes longer, you may lose thecandidate because of these
practical exercises.
But if you can do somethingthat maybe it takes an hour of
prep and an hour of presentationor something like that, fair
enough, like, that's fine.
I used to.
I worked with a company calledSharp Labs of America and I
worked with them for many yearsand was in fact an external
(38:19):
recruiter.
But we were finding some reallyinteresting candidates.
This is before theSalesforcerecruitercom.
These folks are so rare.
I found them in Kyrgyzstan, Ifound them in Sweden, found them
in China, like they were allover.
These were very difficult,tricky, machine learning people.
(38:43):
They're PhDs and they'reusually still in their 20s, so
fairly new, and they had to do apresentation because they'd be
out there speaking at theseconferences where they're
basically.
In these conferences they'rebasically determining all of the
requirements for what MPEGcompression is Like some tricky,
(39:03):
complex stuff and they need tobe able to speak in front of
hundreds of other PhDs.
So they wanted to test them andsome of these folks are
brilliant and super smart, butthey couldn't present.
That means that some of themost important aspects of the
job they couldn't fulfill andthey were able to vet them out
because of this process.
So it's an important process,unless you need help tomorrow
and everybody wants thatcandidate, in which case you
(39:25):
might have to just take theslightly riskier standpoint and
forego it and try to uncoverwhether or not they're a valid
candidate in other ways.
Does that make sense?
Hopefully, yeah, you can unmute, fred.
Okay.
Fred Cadena (39:39):
I wasn't sure.
No, I think that makes perfectsense.
Yeah, go for it.
Sorry, no, I think that's 100%spot on and I think that you
know to your point whatever isbeing asked of you, that open
line of communication back towhat you could actually deliver.
I've certainly had candidatesthat have pushed back and said
look, I've got, you know, theseclient deliverables, I've got
(40:01):
this travel schedule, I've gotthe family life and everything
else.
This is not tenable, likeeverything's negotiable right,
including in the interviewprocess.
So I've definitely adjusted myaffidavits of candidates and
I've definitely pushed backmyself when I've been in an
interview process as well.
Josh Matthews (40:20):
Yeah, I'll tell you the best thing that anybody
can do when they're interviewingsomeone.
Right, we talk a lot on thisshow about what to do as an
interviewee, but as aninterviewer, it's a little bit
different, and one of the bestthings that you can do is
challenge your own initialassumptions.
Right, most people here knowwhat confirmation bias is, if
(40:42):
not, go to YouTube and type itup and learn a little bit about
it.
Okay, but the short story on itis that we go in sort of primed
believing that we're going todiscover something and that's
the only thing that we discover,and our mind blocks out other
information so that we canconfirm our initial beliefs.
And it happens all the time,guys, it's like you go into a
(41:04):
movie and you think it's goingto be crappy and you're just
looking for all the things thatare wrong with it, versus like
knowing nothing about that filmand maybe being pleasantly
surprised.
So that's a stupid example, butthe reality is is this when
you're interviewing a candidateand candidates this is a good
thing to pay attention to.
When you're interviewing acandidate, you need to think
(41:24):
okay, all of a sudden, you'vegot these feelings like oh my
God, I really like her, she'sgreat.
She seems smart, she can talk,she could do this job.
I like her background.
The resume is polished.
There weren't any spellingmistakes, right, yeah, they're
great.
And oh, by the way, I have aweek to fill this position or
else this senior vice presidentis going to pull the requisition
(41:45):
and give it to another district.
Like, I need to fill this rightnow.
So I've got all this pressureto make this higher and so all
of a sudden you stop looking foranything bad and you're only
looking for the good, and you'remostly going from your gut and
you're mostly basing things onthe rapport that you have.
(42:07):
Now, if you're in my industryand you're talking with
recruiters, most recruiters arenice people.
They like to talk to otherpeople and they're curious about
others.
So it's generally pretty easyto develop rapport with a guy
like me or Stephen, right, sothat's not hard.
But if that's all you're doing,you're not going to uncover
where things can go wrong.
So if you really like someone,the best thing you can do is try
(42:30):
to dig deep and find out whatfind something about this person
that's going to go negative,and so you really need to press
them on.
Talk to me about how you handlestress right.
Give them situational andbehavioral questions that can
probe a little bit further andgo into their past and ask them.
You know nobody likes these,but tell me about a time when,
(42:53):
blank, right Now, and if it'sover prepared, ask another one
that's a little bit similar.
Give me another example.
See, if it's just a preparedanswer so you can push back.
But you need to find a reasonnot to like someone and it's
critical.
And I'll tell you a quick story.
I had a gal come in and, by theway I was just referring to
like this person comes in andyou've got rapport and it seems
(43:13):
like they can do the job andeverything's great.
So that was me.
I was hiring for a recruiter.
This is back when I was workingat Robert Haff technology and
the creative group and I washiring a recruiter and she came
in and she's we couldn't findanybody.
I mean, we'd been looking forweeks and weeks and weeks and
finally used to be a line outthe door, but in those days
(43:35):
nobody wanted to join.
So we'd been looking foreverand finally got a good candidate
.
She comes in.
What presents?
Well, very friendly, nice, youknow, ask good questions, gave
good background and I was justsort of like great start Monday.
I mean, I just like ate it, Ijust like bonked so hard.
(43:57):
I didn't take any of my ownadvice and I'll tell you, when
she showed up a couple of weekslater, it wasn't Monday, but it
was a Monday a couple of weekslater and she showed up.
I'm telling you, by nooneverybody and I don't know if
you remember this particularhire, stephen, but by noon me
and everybody else on the team,and probably her, knew it wasn't
(44:18):
going to work out and it didn't.
It was over within a month.
If I could have made it overthat day, I would have, but HR
wouldn't allow it.
You know it was going toreflect too poorly on us.
We had to give her a chance.
But it didn't work out.
And I knew right away.
And I knew whose fault it was.
And it was mine, 100% my fault.
I wanted so badly to fill thisposition I stopped paying
(44:42):
attention, I stopped caringenough to find out all the
reasons why she might actuallydamage the team.
Well, she did temporarily untilshe left.
Shame on me.
Lesson learned Clearly I'velearned my lesson, but that sort
of thing happens.
So you've got to be realcareful, and I was not the one
(45:03):
in power, I was not at the time,prepared to walk away from it,
speaking to our earlier pointsabout negotiation.
So, vanessa, are you still withus?
Maybe not.
So we're having some it's nottechnical difficulties.
No, I'm still here.
Vanessa Grant (45:20):
I'm still here, I just couldn't find the dang
button.
Yeah, I've been wanderingaround.
I finally made it to TahoeDream Inn and I've been asking
people if they know anythingabout negotiation and I would
say, pretty much surprisingly,across the board, everybody's
fairly bad at it.
I'm glad that we're talkingabout that.
Josh Matthews (45:39):
Well, a lot of people who are good at
negotiation don't get intotechnology unless it's in sales.
It's just one of those thingsPeople who aren't great at
technology tend not to becometechnical architects.
It's just kind of how it goes.
But I think that, because we dolike to take these little talk
shows that we do here on Twitter, spaces can run a little bit
(45:59):
long.
I think what we'll do is justkind of switch the format.
This has been a great episode sofar for the podcast and we'll
go ahead and produce this andwe'll release it so that
everybody can listen to it.
Probably next Wednesday, nextThursday, probably next
Wednesday, we'll release it soyou can check it out on your
favorite platform.
But let's go ahead and startanew for the second half, which
(46:22):
will be released in two weeks,so that everybody's got some
content coming from theSalesforce career show every
single week.
All we're going to do is wrapit up here with you guys.
Fred Cadena, great to have you.
Jason, thank you for theinteresting and personal story
and the win, and congratulationsagain on the job.
Anthony, thank you for thefeedback, the background and all
(46:46):
of the applause in there too.
No one go away, because we'regoing to come right back and
we're going to be talking aboutanswering some of these
questions that we've receivedfrom our listeners over the last
week or so.
Here we go, and thanks again,everybody, for joining us on
this podcast.
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