The Salesforce Talent Ecosystem Report with Nick Hamm and Kristin Langlois

Episode Transcript
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Announcer (00:02):
And now the number one audio program that helps you
to hire, get hired and soarhigher in the Salesforce
ecosystem.
It's the Salesforce career showwith Josh Matthews and Vanessa
Grant.

Josh Matthews (00:20):
Well, welcome everybody.
We've got a fantastic showtoday.
We're coming off the heels ofDreamforce, where we everybody
wrapped up on Thursday night,and we've got some special
guests with us, including NickHam from 10 K.
He's the CEO.
Nick, go ahead and introduceyourself, if you can.

Nick Hamm (00:41):
Hey, josh, thanks, yeah, as you mentioned, nick Ham
, CEO of 10 K advisors.
We're a Salesforce partnerspecializing in on demand
Salesforce, talent, globalcommunity of about 700.
Salesforce experts around theworld.
And a good segue, because thatis all Kristen's doing and what
she is responsible for.

That's right and Kristen, this is this is your
second time on the show.
It was a terrific episode, oneof our best ever last time you
visited us.
Thank you to you and to Nickfor joining us.
Go ahead and give us an introfor you, please.

Kristin Langlois (01:17):
Awesome.
Well, it's great to be back.
I'm Kristen Langwa.
I'm the chief people officerwith 10 K advisors.
My main responsibilities are tofocus on growing our expert
community, as well as theoverall HR functions within 10 K
.

All right, and we're also joined by my
fantastic co host, vanessa Grant.
Welcome, vanessa.
What's going on?

Vanessa Grant (01:40):
Still recovering from Dreamforce and actually
just about to be in between jobs.
More information to come.

Okay, well, yeah, this is some pretty cool and
exciting information, so I'mlooking forward to getting into
that.
Let's talk about Dreamforce,guys.
Oh, and I should probablyintroduce myself if you've never
tuned into the show before.
My name is Josh Matthews.
I run the Salesforcerecruitercom.
We specialize in placingcontractors and direct hire and
we're approaching our five yearanniversary.
I'm trying to speak, guys.

(02:10):
Look, I had a red eye last nightand recovering from Dreamforce
Coviz, I think we've got acouple other people in the room
that are dealing with that rightnow and if you are thanks for
you know, pulling yourself up byyour bootstraps and joining us
here today.
Oh no, you got the dream flu.
I got the dream flu, yeah, andI'll tell you it wasn't.

(02:31):
It wasn't as bad as the firsttime I got it, so that's good,
but still not the nicest, mostfun way to depart San Francisco,
and I didn't find out tillSunday.
So sorry, everybody if Iinfected you deeply sorry, of
course.
I mean I've talked to at leastfive or six people that have hit
me up and said hey, josh, justgot it.
So I'm going to go ahead andtalk to you guys.
Sorry, everybody, if I infectedyou deeply.
Sorry, of course.
I mean I've talked to at leastfive or six people that have hit
me up and said hey, josh justgot it.

(02:53):
So I think that's going around.
But let's focus on somepositive things that happen at
Dreamforce.
Vanessa, you had no less thanfour sessions.
How did that go?

Oh, it went really really well.
I was really nervous for thefirst one that I did Thursday
morning but, gosh, by the thirdone I was cracking jokes and
everything, I think, ultimatelywent well.
It's, it's.
It's always the nerves,especially with the stage fright
that I get, you know, kind ofinitially going on stage, but

(03:22):
but yeah, once you it is reallylike having the people in the
audience.
That really helps.
And I got to say like in thefew days since I've come back
from Dreamforce, just likelooking back at photos and
trying to remember everythingthat that happens, since it's
all kind of a blur, gosh, I'mjust like filled with so much
gratitude and just so fortunateto be part of this community and

(03:45):
all the friends you know, somefriends you make along the way
on the journey.
But it really is true, it's,it's, it's quite the community.
I even got to hug Mike Martinat one point for like briefly I
saw him for like a hot second Ithink.

Well, mike's a huggable guy, so I'm glad that
you got that chance.
That's fantastic.
And Mike Martin, nick, tell uswho Mike Martin is, because I
don't want to mess up the title.

Nick Hamm (04:08):
Mike's our chief customer officer and he is
really responsible for makingsure that all of our customers
using our on demand talent arewildly successful.
He's also a Salesforcecelebrity.
He's been on the Salesforcewebsite.
I was actually one of myhighlights.
Dream force was getting tosupport a first of its kind
session that he did where folksgot the bill with Lego, which is

(04:32):
one of his other passions.
So that's awesome, that's areally cool experience.

That's really cool.
And, nick, you were there.
You and I didn't get a chanceto hang out, but you were there.
What was your overallexperience?
I imagine this is not the firstdream force you've been to, so
how is this one different thanothers?

Nick Hamm (04:48):
Sure, yeah, I think this was kind of this count,
especially with the COVID year,but I think this was 15 for me
and you know the you're no,slouch buddy, you're just not a
slouch I can tell.
Well, you know I really go firstand foremost for the community.
It really is the best time ofyear to see.
You know all the friends thatI've made along this journey and

(05:12):
so that's always the highlight.
Never enough time to seeeverybody, but always.
I think one of the best partsis just like the chance
encounters that you have withfolks on the street.
The last day, actually, we weregoing to have a little bit of a
team outing and one of our teammembers could make it and a
friend of mine was a guy who wasjust having a walk up on the

(05:32):
street and you're like, hey, man, you want to join us, and so he
got to join us for a little bitof a team outing.
And, by the way, there's areally cool like you all
probably walk by this place.
It's a virtual reality placeright on Market Street, right
there, and we've done that acouple times.
So for anybody listening, ifyou're in San Francisco looking

(05:53):
for, you know, just a fun littlehour to spend.
Very cool little VR place to gocheck out.
But you know, I would say thisreinforce overall it felt really
crowded.
Number one, I think, the waythat they sort of condensed it
to Moscone and didn't really usethe satellite hotels, the host

(06:16):
sessions along with you knowsort of.
The increased attendance madeit feel really crowded, which
you know, in some ways that's acool energy in some ways.
You know that's not funsometimes.

But yeah, it did feel a little crowd Like.
It didn't feel much differentthan when there were 250,000
people there.
Right, yeah, exactly.
And I'm sure that was onpurpose right.
Yeah, but I can tell you myfeet were more grateful because
I didn't have to watch for milesa day, so that was kind of cool
.

Nick Hamm (06:44):
Absolutely so.
You know definitely had a goodtime in the trailhead zone
Checking a lot of that out.
That's where I usually spendmost of my time when I'm there.
We actually co-sponsored withElements a space right off the
3rd Street where we that'sreally where I spent most of my
time meetings with partners,customers and our experts.

(07:07):
And then we co-sponsored ahappy hour with Ricardo one
evening and customer dinners andyou know all the good stuff.
But you know it was a goodenergy.
I was lucky, you know, not tocome back with the dream flute
this time, but, like you haveheard from many that did.

Nick, I just hug more people than you, buddy.

Peter Ganza (07:31):
That's all that I have.
I guess that's what I was.

I'm just a hugger .
I'm sure that's what happened.
That's what it was.
Yeah, I don't know if I can goback to not hugging, but we'll,
you know, might have to nextyear, we'll see.
Stay healthy, don't hug.

Yeah, and I'd like to just for any future
Dreamforce attendees, I wouldlike to make a public service
announcement that the MVP party,yeah, even if somebody invites
you to it, like, if you're notan MVP, don't go.
They're pretty strict aboutthat, as I found out firsthand
at the stream forums, so I wouldlike to dispel any rumors that

(08:07):
I crashed the MVP party.
I didn't mean to.
Somebody invited me and we'llleave it at that.

You're so funny, vanessa.
If anyone deserves to be an MVP, it's you, and so, for all
those listening here, you knowyou can nominate Vanessa to be
an MVP this year.
She definitely deserves it.
So let's all get on thatbandwagon.
It's one worth hanging on to, Ithink.

Well, you know, the important part was that I
managed to consume a littlemeatball appetizer and espresso
martini before I was escortedout, so I got a little something
out of my 10 minutes.

Yeah, whenever you hear that I hear the words
escorted out you know it ain'tgood, like something went down.

I thought it would be okay.
Somebody said hey, you shoulddefinitely come by.
Yeah, no, don't do it, they'revery, very strict.

Yeah, it's so future.

It's just an announcement for anybody.

I crashed a couple parties myself.
I crashed some parties, but Ididn't get kicked out of any of
them.
So that's it.
You just got to step up yourgame, Vanessa.
You got to get Morgan Cognito.

We'll figure it out for you next year.
If it's not a good time, it's agood story.

There you go.
I like that.
Well, we had a great time andby we I mean me like me and all
my friends and you know gettingto hang out with Vanessa,
current clients, future clientsI mean a lot of future clients
who've already been taking abunch of job orders today from
Ed, and maybe Steven canhighlight some of those roles a
little bit later on at thehalfway mark.
But we did host a littlecontent creators party over at

(09:35):
the Home for Marketers tent thatwas sponsored by Sir Conte and
some other sponsors, and then wealso ran a live podcast.
This was the first time you'veever done a live show like in
person.
So we had a live audience andwe were actually outside and
thanks to my sound editor,daniel, he did an amazing job of
getting rid of a massive,gigantic air conditioning unit

(09:57):
sound that was running the wholetime.
But we were joined by Sarah,christina and and Sineka from I
can't remember where Sinekaworks, I'm so sorry, very
embarrassing.
The other guys are from SirConte and you can listen to that
because I just published thatthis afternoon.
So just go on the platform andcheck out that live show.

(10:17):
Talk about some interestingthings that are a little bit
different than we usually cover,but what I'm really excited
about today is talking aboutthis ecosystem report, this
talent ecosystem, salesforcetalent ecosystem report.
I've been reading this for thelast several years.
It's produced by by Nick andhis team over at 10 K advisors,

(10:38):
and this is a really specialepisode because if you don't
actually download it and read it, you're going to get some of
the core highlights here andthen hopefully, a better
understanding of how to beapproaching your career, moving
forward and some things that youcan expect so that you can plan
for certain trends.
So let's go ahead and diveright into it.
Who would like to start, nickor Kristen, with some of the

(11:00):
most compelling, surprisingfacts from this year's report?

Nick, I'll let you start, and then I'll chime
in as well.

Nick Hamm (11:10):
Yeah, I mean, as far as surprises, I don't know that
there were a ton of like, oh mygosh, I can't believe that.
I think, yeah, honestly, a lotof the storylines that we found
sort of supported, maybeanecdotally, what a lot of us
might be seeing out therealready.
But you know, I think one ofthe most stark findings that we
had was the significant decreasein demand for talent this year

(11:35):
over last year by about half.
Yeah 46% right I think it saidyeah, yeah.
So I mean that's that's, that'spretty significant.
But one sort of interestingaspect of that is, you know,
sort of we saw a lot largerdecline in what we call
established markets than in someof the emerging markets, which

(11:59):
is sort of signaling a littlebit of a trend that we see where
, you know, folks are buildingup delivery centers in South
America and India and Africa andother geographies to help
support.
There is still is a healthydemand for talent, right, but
we're still kind of coming downoff of the, the COVID-19.

So you know, I would say get some clarity for
from you real quick on this,before going further.
So when we say that there's a46% decrease in demand year over
year, how are you, how are you,acquiring that information?
What's the data that you'reusing to come up with that
number?

Nick Hamm (12:42):
Yeah, so we have a methodology that we repeated for
the past six years where we'relooking at specific job boards
and searching for job postingswith the six titles that we that
we look at now Salesforceadministrators, business
analysts, developers, solutionarchitects, technical architects
and consultants.
So that's an aggregate acrossall those.

(13:05):
Yeah.

You know, it's interesting that we all know
that there's been this decrease,right, but sometimes that's a
daunting number and people canbe like, oh my God, it's the end
of the world.
And it's not just like you said.
It's not the end of the world,right, but what's the one?

Nick Hamm (13:21):
still, it's not a demand out there for sure.

There's still a ton of demand, and we've got to
remember that we're coming offof one of the biggest hiring
years ever, right?
I mean, the demand spiked sohigh after COVID for about 18
months or so.
Maybe my numbers are off alittle bit here, but this was my
experience.
They spiked so hard and so bycomparison, of course, things

(13:43):
are going to look a little bitdifferent.
And then also we had the greatresignation, which is really the
great chair hopping right.
It's not like everybody justresigned and stopped working,
they just went to differentcompanies.
How much of this do you thinkis economic versus how much of
this is well?
There was so much hiring goingon before that now people are in
these jobs and they were hiredwell, and they're not going

(14:05):
anywhere.

Nick Hamm (14:05):
That's actually a really good question.
I think it's a little bit ofboth.
I would honestly say it'smostly economic.
We've seen not only a slowdownin hiring but lots of layoffs
that have been very public andthose sort of slowed down a
little bit but still even seeinga little bit of that.

(14:27):
But I think we're hopefully atthe bottom of that.
Even sales forces said thatthey were going to hire, I think
, 3,300 people and a lot ofboomerang employees coming back.
So I think a lot of it isdefinitely economic and probably
a factor of over hiring whendemand spikes so high, like you

(14:47):
said about 18 months ago.

Yeah, demand spiked like crazy.
They hired 27,000 people in theprior year, so I saw a lot of
buzz in the last two days.
About 3,300 people are going toget hired.
It's like, well, yeah, you'regoing to have to do that just to
keep pace with the people withregular attrition.
That's just to keep the numberssteady.
So I don't know.

(15:10):
I'm imagining that demand andwhere they're going to be
putting those people is going tobe a little bit more in data
cloud, omni Studio, einstein,gpt, things like this.
What's your take?
Where do you think?
I was going to say how did younot say?
AI first right, yeah, right.

Nick Hamm (15:30):
Did you like that?
It's got to be an AI.
So, yeah, I think this is sortof a chance for Salesforce I
guess we could use them as anexample but a lot of companies
to sort of retrench a little bit.
Everyone was dealing with allthe effects of COVID on business
, and not just on business, butthen worker expectations as well

(15:55):
, and that's where a lot of newjobs came available, but they
may not have been net new jobs,and so I think some part of this
decline is sort of like whatyou alluded to.
Right, the problem is sort ofthe chair hopping is not
happening as much anymore, right, but this is an opportunity for

(16:15):
companies to sort of rethinkhow they're building their
talent teams, and so we've seenthis before, right, this isn't
the first time that somethinglike this has happened in 2008.

It's not the last time either.
It's just part of a cycle.

Nick Hamm (16:32):
Yeah, right.
So you know, when this happens,again, businesses are really
quick to hire, they're reallyquick to fire.
But then, as things sort of thedust settles right, there's
this new normal, right, and Ithink that what we'll see next
year, if I had to make aprediction on demand, is that we

(16:53):
will see demand increase.
But what we'll start seeing andI've been saying this for a few
years is that we'll startseeing demand increase in more
of the specialized roles, right?
And so you know, this is sortof a signal to talent to say,
hey, this is my opportunity todifferentiate myself from sort
of the masses.

(17:13):
Because you know, the otherpiece that we haven't talked
about yet is that there still isa significant increase in
supply.
So supply didn't drop, right,supply continues to grow.
So when you contrast supplygrowing with demand dropping,

(17:38):
you know, really that's a signalto talent that, hey, I need to
find a way to stand out from themasses.
I need to find a way todifferentiate myself.
I need to find a way to haveskills that are going to set me
apart from everyone else if Iwant to compete in this job
market today.

Yeah, it's critical, vanessa, and I talk
about it a lot being the obviouschoice for the role.
And I'm assuming too, like Ilike your business model right,
which is it's more fractional.
You know fractional expertiseand I understand it can go.
You know they can go full timeand they can go a long time, but
it's you know, they can reallykind of pick and choose.

(18:17):
So you want to talk about yourbusiness model real quick.

Nick Hamm (18:21):
Sure, really, the genesis of this started when I
was at a large consultingcompany and we started losing
talent, even in a market wheretalent was super highly in
demand.
There was this question of well, this is really good talent,

(18:43):
they don't want to work for us,they don't want to work for
anybody else, they want to goout and do their own thing.
But how do we keep them in thefamily Because they're good and
we want to work with them?
That's a little bit of how 10Kcame together, thinking how can
we now support theseentrepreneurs and these folks
that don't want to work foranybody, but they're really good

(19:05):
talent?
How can we help partners andcustomers tap into this really
good talent while stillsupporting the entrepreneurial
efforts of these folks?
That gave us a really uniqueopportunity when it comes to how
we help customers to help themtap into this community.
What we found is a lot of thesefolks do have specialized

(19:27):
skills.
They have specializedexperience that sometimes
companies need that for a littlebit.
They need to rent that, theydon't need to buy it.
That gives us an opportunity tohelp those companies come to
where they are, at the same timesupporting Salesforce
entrepreneurs that want to goout and either.

(19:47):
Some of them want to work 80hours a week, some of them want
to go hang gliding in Mexico forthe summer.
Some of them want to work fivehours a day.

Yeah, I want to do that.
That sounds like a lot of fun.

That's operational.
I'll add a little bit of my ownpersonal perspective on here,
having been in the ecosystem forover a decade.
As Salesforce has increased incomplexity, we've seen roles in
this ecosystem change thestandard roles how you build a
team that would support aSalesforce org Initially we had

(20:23):
an admin could be anybody thatworked at your company that
cared about data.
Then it turned into an admin isalso a slash.
A developer.
We had these admin helpers thatexisted.
Then all of a sudden thoseturned into two separate roles.
We realized that all of asudden we had these five to
10-year-old orgs that are miredin technical debt because nobody
was doing any documentation orbusiness analysis.

(20:45):
Now all of a sudden we'veintroduced business analysts as
being a much more prominent rolehere.
Now we're talking about DevOps,experts and all these.
Totally to your point, nick,how we're just getting so much
more specialized, and not evennecessarily in roles, but even
in clouds.

(21:05):
Then the other thing I justwanted to add to that is, having
been in consulting now for anumber of years, there's a huge
resourcing problem where, whenyou do have just a pool of
consultants that you're workingwith, it's very challenging to
really mix and match theprojects to the expertise that
you have on staff.

(21:27):
I have seen where there's beena lot of contractors coming in
because they do have thatspecialized expertise.
Otherwise, you're forced tobasically take your full-time
consultants and maybe put themin boxes that they don't fit
necessarily perfectly in.
I know that while my title hasbeen consultant for a number of
years, I've been billed out as aUX designer.

(21:50):
I've been billed out as abusiness analyst or billed out
as a solution architect.
It really varies and it can bedifficult to specialize when
you're full-time consulting.

Nick Hamm (22:02):
Yeah, I agree, it's not just, even, like you
mentioned, not just roles, butthe breadth of the platform has
expanded so much.
I tell people a lot when Istarted doing Salesforce stuff
in 2006, in the first couple ofyears I felt pretty confident
that I could speak to almostanything that Salesforce did.
Right now I feel like I don'tknow anything about Salesforce.

(22:25):
It's so broad, with all thecapabilities that they built,
the acquisitions that they'vemade, it's created lots of
niches and lots of opportunitiesfor folks to specialize in
certain skills or in certainclouds or in certain areas, not
only across one role, but evenmultiple roles potentially.
That's where maybe you have acompany who has a lot of

(22:53):
experience in that they mightnot need somebody on staff
full-time to manage that.
They might just need somebodyto come in and help architect
the program that then their teamcan take over.
We definitely see a lot of thattype of work.
Sometimes you also have justburst capacity needs.
You have a big project, youacquire a company or you want to

(23:16):
migrate and sunset a system.
You just need some people for alittle bit more time than your
team can handle.
I think for NASA, to your point, what customer needs are now
compared to what they were 10years ago, when you had a lot of
people that were migrating fromthe Siebels and Oracles and the

(23:37):
SQL databases and all thatstuff on to Salesforce, versus
now where you have these olderorgs that have lots of
capabilities built into them.
Frankly, that are mostly shouldbe retired or rebuilt or are
technical debt.
The nature of how customers areworking with Salesforce and
what they need has changed quitea bit over the last few years.

Yeah, it definitely has.
I'm curious to hear yourthoughts on this, yours or Chris
.
Clearly there's been anincrease in partners globally.
I don't have that stat right infront of me, maybe you do.
I was reading your report andit talked about what the growth
was for partners.

(24:21):
Do you think that the increasein overall partners is just
keeping demand with the need fordoing implementations,
migrations, configurations fornew firms, things like this?
Or do you feel like maybethere's less full-time hiring
going on because there's moremanaged services being provided
by some of these partners?

Nick Hamm (24:44):
I think in any downturn again I'll go back to
2008,.
You see the need for consultingpartners go up because
companies are more risk aversein hiring talent full-time, but
they still need to get work done.
I've seen this a couple timesover the last 17 years or so,

(25:08):
the cycles where when you dohave these economic blips, if
you will, that customers stillneed to get work done.
They're still paying for theirSalesforce licenses most of them
anyway and they still have workto get done.
Typically they're turning topartners to get that work done
for accounting reasons and otherreasons.

I've seen it too, I mean for 25 years.
It's normal Back in Robert inthe Robert Half days when
Stephen and I were there, it waswhen it's a great market perm,
perm, perm or direct placementheadhunting Then when it's a
down market, that always tanks.
Sometimes we'd wind up withouta team.
The demand was so low in 0809.

(25:53):
It just went away.
No one was paying fees.
Then everything was contractors.
Then eventually it's a contractto hire and then eventually
direct hire came back on thescene.

Nick Hamm (26:05):
Yeah, I think again, just the nature of how
Salesforce is evolving atcompanies is going to change
that sum.
I think you're going to havevery few companies who are not
going to want to have anyfull-time talent.
We actually don't recommendthat.
We prefer companies have someconcentration of talent there

(26:26):
that are really close to thebusiness and really close to the
problems.
Let us help with the hardtechnical stuff while they can
really be close to the solutions.
I think that right now we'reseeing more partners come in for
a few reasons.
One is the expandedcapabilities.

(26:46):
You have lots of companies who,for example, might have been
marketing consulting firms thatare coming in to now do the
technical side of this.
With Marketing Cloud they'regoing to become a partner or
commerce consulting companieswho consult across a number of
commerce platforms who are now aSalesforce commerce cloud
partner, as well as, just again,what we see and Kristin can

(27:08):
really speak to this more is thegrowing number of entrepreneurs
who are going out on their ownand starting their own
consulting companies foradditional earning opportunities
or flexibilities or quality oflife or whatever it might be.

Yeah, why don't you speak to that, kristin, for
a moment?

I'm definitely happy to do so.
We've definitely seen thedemand increase or supply
increase for those that aregoing out on their own, want
more flexibility, want morefreedom to choose the projects
they work on, when and how, howmany hours they work.
That is definitely somethingthat we're seeing.
We're also seeing with thiseconomic downturn, or changes,

(27:49):
that people again want to turnto take their own career in
their own hands and have, like Isaid, more control over it.
I think that is a big drivingforce for those to want to
pursue being their own businessowner.

Yeah, it's almost like people who got started
five years ago and they've gotsome chops and they've been
mentored and they've maybe beenexposed to 12 or a dozen, 20
different customers.
They can develop a differentsense, a spidey sense, of how to
navigate multiple challengeswith doing implementations and

(28:30):
integrations, which is generalwork.
Also, the more time people havein the seat, the more they're
going to want to go out on theirown.
If we look back five years, thegrowth's been incredible.
What did the report say againon?
Has it doubled since 19 or 20?
I can't remember the stat.

Nick Hamm (28:52):
As far as the number of partners, it was 20% this
past year.
It's 19%.
The growth rate in 2020 was thehighest one we've seen, and that
was 29%, but this was thehighest we've seen since 2020.

(29:13):
Not only were we seeing theincrease in the number of
partners, but the large firmsare growing like crazy.
This is not a new trend.
This is not just this year.
This has been happening foryears, where there's this
massive hazem opening up whereyou have really the top 30
partners, I think, have about62% of the talent.

(29:35):
We're talking about 2,500partners.
It's not like there's 100partners.
The top 30 partners have morethan half of the consulting
talent, which is crazy to thinkabout when you think about the
high hundreds of thousands ofconsultants in this ecosystem
and how locked up those folksare in those few firms and how
few customers they can work with.

(29:58):
You think about the totalcustomer base of Salesforce.
The rest of the customer baseis left with 20,470 partners to
fit through to figure out whothe right partner is for them.
That's where we've become not abroker, if you will, but a
clearinghouse or a way for notonly other partners to be seen,

(30:22):
but for customers to find thosepartners.
A lot of those smaller partners, especially, have great talent.
Those are the folks that wetalked about, that you just
talked about that have beendoing this 5, 10, 15, sometimes
20-plus years now that have goneout on their own for quality of
life.
If you're a customer whodoesn't know John or Jane at

(30:43):
this small little niche partner,you're never going to find them
through the app exchange.
Even if you do, how are yougoing to know that they're
really?

good.
I always joke about that.
Peter talks about it all thetime.
Peter Gons is on the show heretoo right now.
He's also known as the appwhisperer.
He talks about how everyone'sgot four and a half or five
stars on the app exchange.
How do you tell?
It's almost impossible.

Nick Hamm (31:10):
You have to be an educated buyer too.
To be honest, most Salesforcecustomers I won't say this, I
won't say it that way Some aremore informed than others.
There you go, there you go.
It's hard.
I just admitted I don't knowthat much about Salesforce
anymore.
It's hard for customers to knowwhat they need to look for.
There's a lot of confusinginformation out there around.

(31:31):
What should you expect from anadmin?
What's reasonable?
What do I need based on whatproducts I have or what my team
looks like?
You got to talk to an expertlike yourself to really figure
that out.
It's just hard for customers toknow it's really.

yeah, it's difficult.
Peter Gons go ahead.

Peter Ganza (31:52):
I just wanted to point out not every partner.
You don't have to be on the appexchange to be a partner.
We don't necessarily know whatthat number is Salesforce
doesn't disclose it but you canbe a partner and not be on the
app exchange.

Okay, yeah, but it's the number that we can look
at.
That's the barometer.
It might be a little cooler, alittle bit warmer, the pressure
might be a little bit heavier.
Lighter barometer, but that'sthe measuring stick that we're
using.

Nick Hamm (32:25):
Also, that's true.
You don't have to have an appexchange listing.
You're given one if you sign upas a partner.
Really, I think the mostimportant point to that is
there's lots of people who arenot actual partners of
Salesforce that still doSalesforce work.
We know that that 2,500 numberis unique business entities that
are doing Salesforce workbecause many of them don't even

(32:47):
sign up to be a partner.
If you sign up to be aregistered partner, I think
they've actually started waivingthat fee since COVID.
Really, the benefit you get istwo free Salesforce licenses.
It does pay for itself, butthere's really not much other
support that you get fromSalesforce.
Frankly, If you're a one-personshop, they're not just like I'm

(33:12):
so glad that you signed up as apartner, here's 50 leads and
here's a bunch of customers.
It's definitely not like that.

I would actually love to ask a question, since
we've got Nick and Kristen here,something that I've seen, I
think, especially withpost-pandemic, and there are
those career acceleratorprograms that have come from
more of a financial independenceretire early background, a lot

(33:38):
of folks looking to transitiontheir careers into
entrepreneurship, but maybedon't have any Salesforce
experience.
Approximately how muchexperience do you think that you
need before you actually go outon your own?
How much experience do you needbefore you can sign up with the
10K and dictate your own termson things?

Sure, I'll take that one.
I would say on average, thosethat come into our community
have about five to seven yearsof experience.
A majority of that would bewithin the Salesforce ecosystem.
There are some outliers forthose that maybe have really
just gone deep really quicklyand specifically, maybe in a

(34:26):
niche, cloud or industry.
From that perspective theybuilt out an expertise that they
stand out and where we wouldsay, yes, you are considered and
you are looked at as an expertin this area in Salesforce.
For those that I think are theaverage, that come into average

(34:49):
years of experience or exposureto Salesforce, they've had a
significant amount of time ofworking with a variety of
clients so they built thatconsultant acumen.
They've experienced a widebreadth of challenges within
clients, different communicationstyles.

(35:10):
They've known how to navigatedifferent scenarios where that's
what you run into by being anindependent consultant.
And they themselves have builtthat deep technical expertise
within Salesforce as well asconsulting Acumen to be able to
now say I'm going to bring thisto the market.
And then that's where we alsocan come in and really say, hey,

(35:32):
how can we support you in yourjourney as being an independent
consultant?
And that's also what ourclients expect from 10K and our
independent consultants that wepartner with.

That's fantastic.
Yeah, I have heard people thatare just like thinking that
they're going to go through acareer accelerator program and
then just be an independentconsultant.
And certainly I mean I don'thave the.
I've been doing this 13 yearsand I think I'm too scared to do
it.
So it impresses me, I think,when certain people think that

(36:08):
they can, but I don't see howthat's possible.
So I love your perspective andthank you for sharing that.

Of course I think it's.
I mean, if you look at theecosystem report too and
specifically I'll go, you know,speak to the.
The increase of administrativesupply However there is, you
know, the administrator jobpostings only made up 7% of

(36:36):
Salesforce job postings thisyear.
So that to me, you know, justshows that those that are
breaking into Salesforce,getting their admins or
certificates going through thesecareer accelerators, it may be
a little bit harder for them atthis point in time to break in.

There's no may about it.
It's definitely harder, and ithas been, and it's been
increasingly harderprogressively every year over
the last five years, you knowit's just gotten more and more
difficult, and you know we coverthis at other shows.
I woke up well, what do you do?
How do you get experience, like, how do you stand out?
All of those things, becausethere are ways to do it, but

(37:20):
it's definitely not the.
I mean, it used to be just likeshow up, take a test, get a gig
.
Year later, double your salaryfrom whatever you were doing
before, right, and it's notreally the case right now.
And to your point, you knowthere's this massive reduction
in admin posts.

(37:40):
But I think a lot of that it'snot just that there's less
demand.
Look, the hidden job market is80% of the job market.
So when we look at thesenumbers, you know maybe not like
in the heyday of you know,everyone needed a technical
architect and there were likefour of them in the whole
country because that happened.
Basically I'm being a littlebit satirical here, but like

(38:02):
it's serious stuff but there's ahidden job market and now, as
more and more junior admins gainenough knowledge about how to
navigate LinkedIn, develop theirnetwork and make themselves
known, companies, I believe, arenot wasting dollars on

(38:23):
advertising job posts for admins.
They can find them without itright, or they can do a
Craigslist ad for 30 bucks, andwe're not tracking Craigslist,
are we Right?
So you know, there's definitelythere's some nuance to this
report of the things that arehappening in the background.
The numbers are the numbers andthey're not to be denied, but
there's these hidden numbers andthese hidden things that are

(38:45):
happening, like the hidden jobmarket, right?
For instance, I think you guystalked about this big reduction
in demand for architects ingeneral and specifically
technical architects by.
I want to say it was over 50%,50, 55%, and have to look at it
more carefully.
I've got 22 pages spread out infront of me and my eyesight is
not that good, so I don't knowlike it's in here, right, but so

(39:08):
talk about that.
Do you think that people are?
And here's the other thing.
So I'm going to throw a secondpart in here.
So there's this hidden jobmarket where people just are
finding ways to connect with oneanother without needing to post
an advertisement.
So there's that.
Then, when the economy gets acough, recruiters get pneumonia.
This is normal, right, weexpect it.

(39:29):
And so staffing firms go out ofbusiness fortunately not ours,
fortunately not yours, but somecompanies go out of business or
they sell and they consolidate.
We see this with partners alsoright.
I noticed that over the lastfive years there's been a 986%
increase in companies that arein that partners, that are in

(39:51):
the 100 to 500, you knowcertification headcount I think
it was certified experts okaywhich is massive.
It's more than twice any othergroup.
We've got 300% growth over fiveyears for the 500 to 1,000,
220% for 1,000 and over and theone to five 77% right In the

(40:13):
last five years.
So it's a massive delta herebetween these 100 to 500.
And I've got a theory about it.
I think it's consolidation.
I think that these are the thisis the size of company that's
buying the one to five personteams or the one to 20 headcount
teams and integrating them.
What do you think about that?

(40:33):
Do you think that's part ofwhat's happening here?

Nick Hamm (40:36):
Yeah, I mean sort of two separate pieces, but yeah,
absolutely I mean there's.
We've seen this as long as I'vebeen around I've seen it where
any sort of smaller partner whogets to 50, 100 people and
starts to get some traction andis ready to sell could easily be
bought because that next tieris trying to move from

(40:59):
mid-market to enterprise andneeds people right and there's
been this gap and sort of thelower and mid-market customer
consulting base for largerconsulting companies, because
anybody who services that marketand gains any traction is going
to get sucked up.
And then you know they're thenext traction on demand or
acumen or whatever, and they'reworking on the big clients now.

(41:20):
So that's definitely happenedquite a bit and I think the data
shows that.
From an architect perspective,you know customers just struggle
to hire them.
Number one.
Number one I think mostcustomers don't even know that
they need one.
They think that developers cansolve the problem.

(41:41):
Informed customers know, but Ithink you have a lot of
customers who just don't evenknow, like that they need an
architect or what they would usean architect for.
So that's problem number one.

Yeah, I had a conversation like that today
with the tiniest little partnerand I'm excited about working
with this group.
But it's the same thing.
And when they're new to theecosystem and or maybe they're
doing Azure and AWS and now theywant to do Salesforce and it's
a different market, right, it'sreally hard to understand, but
yeah, it's a huge thing.
So many times this is thetypical order.

(42:15):
I hear I need a Salesforcedeveloper, so okay, and then by
the end of the day, after twomonths later, when everything's
kind of washed out, planned outand someone's hired on board,
what they've got is a temporaryarchitect to help them kick
things off and then to be in thewings for the duration of the
project or for the next sixmonths or a year.

(42:35):
What have you right?
A little bit of development andpredominantly what most
companies, these partners, needour consultants.
Talk about the consult demandfor consultants and how you
define a consultant, becauseI've seen, you know, I've looked
at hundreds, if not thousandsof job postings and sometimes
they say they'll title someone aconsultant, but really their

(42:58):
developer.
Or they'll title title someonea consultant, but they're really
a BA, right, it's sort of thisall inclusive thing, saying that
you're going to do your job,whatever that job happens to be,
but you're not going to do itfor us, you're going to do it
for our clients.
That make air go yourconsultant right?
What do you think about that?
Like, how many people areactually like true, real
consultants versus you know, Imean, how many BA's at Accenture

(43:23):
are actually just full timeworking for another company
through Accenture?
You know what I mean.

Nick Hamm (43:30):
Yeah, no, it's a good point and I think when we
started this six years ago, thestratification of roles was less
than what it is now.
Right, you know it pretty muchused to be like you were a admin
, developer, consultant orarchitect, right, those are kind
of the four things that you didin Salesforce.
You know now there's a lot morespecialization as part of the

(43:56):
complexity of the install basehas grown and you brought in
some more of the kind oftraditional IT type roles like
solution architect and businessanalyst and technical architect
and enterprise architect.
So DevOps, yeah, yeah, part ofit's a titling thing, right, and
, to be honest, we might seethat, like over the next hour,
many years, consultant role kindof gets phased out and all that

(44:18):
kind of moves into businessanalysts or admin.
Right, it's sort of the catchall roles or maybe something
completely new that we haven'teven thought about yet.
So you know, I think I thinkit's very subjective and I think
every company just like how youdefine an admin, could have a
different definition of whatthey expect there.

(44:39):
But that was sort of the catchall.
Like you can be a businessanalyst, but you can also
configure the system right, verymuch like an admin but you work
for a partner, right, and so Ithink that's right.
You know, it's sort of an adminwho has worked for a lot of
different companies and seen alot of different situations,
right.
That's how I think about aconsultant is not only do you
have the technical acumen, notonly do you have sort of the

(45:00):
business acumen, but you've seena lot of scenarios that have
helped you kind of hone how yourecommend solutions and, like I
told a lot of people over thenumber of years I've been doing
this in the hundreds andhundreds of orbs, that scene
that's sort of got my MBA thatway right, by just seeing all
these different scenarios howthese companies work, how they

(45:21):
work well, how they'redysfunctional, how they've done
things really good withSalesforce, how they've done
things really bad withSalesforce and those are the
things that really move you fromsort of starting out as an
admin into consultant andeventually solution architect.
And if you want to pursue atechnical arc yeah most
definitely, vanessa.

you've got your hand up.
I don't know why, becauseyou're in charge of people with
hands up.
That's weird.

Of course I have it.
Yeah, no, I agree with thatWith the consultancy.
That is something that Inoticed in the job report
because, like I said, I do kindof think of consultant just from
my experience lately it's beenmore of a title rather than what
I was build out, as I don'tknow that there are too many
folks that are necessarily buildout as like generic consultant,

(46:12):
because it's hard to pick outwhat are the things that a
generic consultant does.
But I like the way that Nickexplained it on how it is a way
of are you actually qualified toadvise on something?
So talk through options, talkthrough risks and present things
and do client management inthat way.
But I almost kind of wonder ifconsultant is almost going to be

(46:33):
like a skill set rather than anactual role, Like are you a BA
that can also consult?
Are you a developer that canalso do some consulting?
And I think in general thisalso kind of I kind of want to
direct the conversation a littlebit to the changing roles in

(46:57):
the ecosystem.
One of the great things aboutDreamforce is being able to have
conversations with people thatare working at Salesforce and
hearing some of the challengesthat they have.
And while I won't name names, Idid speak to somebody fairly
prominent in the Salesforcecommunity on the changing role

(47:20):
of the admin, and there is thatadmin skills kit, which is great
to.
If you go on to Trailhead, youcan see the admin skills kit so
you could see the different hatsthat a solo admin would wear.
But then we're also throwing AIand prompt manager on top of it
and at a certain point I dofeel like we're going to end up

(47:45):
splitting that up.
Maybe instead of just therebeing generic admin, maybe it's
junior admin, maybe it's goingto be your AI admin Just how
that role might actually change,because it's definitely too
much even now for a solo personcoming in as far as I'm
concerned.

Nick Hamm (48:07):
Sorry, Kristen, go ahead.

I was just going to comment on that.
Even if you go to the toolkitand you look at it today, it
would be daunting to me to thinkthat, okay, this is the role
I'm taking on, and especially incompanies.
Even if you look at the jobpostings, I think they add to
what their expectations are oftheir postings for admins.

(48:31):
What, wait, what I know?
How could that be you?

mean they're asking for more than they can
get.

I know who would do that?

Yeah, you've never heard of that.

You've got to be an internal consultant and code
fluent and all sorts of stuff.
It's wild how, what theexpectations that are put on
admins these days.

I agree, and so I 100% agree with you that I
think we're going to definitelysee again.
I don't know if it's title orjust specializations, but I
think we will see that in theadmin role and other roles
within the Salesforce ecosystem.

Nick Hamm (49:09):
Yeah, if you look at that skills kit, there's some
things on there that especiallywhen you talk about folks that
are trying to enter into theecosystem, that maybe don't come
from an IT background, for earswitchers and there's just no
way Product management, projectmanagement I barely even know

(49:30):
how to differentiate betweenthose two and those are two
different skills that we'resaying that every admin should
have.
It's not wrong.
Those are skills that theperfect admin that I would love
to hire would have, along withall the other ones, but most do
not have all of those skills.
We actually have talked toprobably some of the same people
that you're talking about,vanessa, about this and they're

(49:53):
listening.
I mean, they understand, Ithink, what they're challenged
with a fast-evolving ecosystemas well.
A lot of folks coming into theadmin role.
They are super keen onsupporting admins and making
sure that they have all thetraining and are equipped with
all the stuff that they need.
But the other side of that isalso helping companies

(50:18):
understand and set properexpectations with companies on
what's reasonable for you to askof an admin that you're going
to pay $50,000 a year, versus anadmin you're going to pay
$120,000 a year.
What types of things shouldthey be able to do, because
those are two different people.
Not everybody is going to beone of the other of those.
How do you know?

(50:40):
I think that's part of what'sbeen challenging with folks
trying to break into theecosystem as well and finding
the right fit, the right job.
Fit is that the companyexpectations have sort of been
set that, like, hey, adminsshould have all of this stuff.
In reality, a lot of them donot and don't need to, frankly,
especially if you're going to bepart of a larger team.

(51:02):
So I think that we'll see overthe next I don't know how long,
but sometime in the future alittle bit more fragmentation
and potential white levels wherewe maybe split this admin role,
which is really unique to theSalesforce ecosystem, by the way
.
I think this is a problem thatis hard to solve because it

(51:23):
hasn't really been solved sometraditional IT problem like
business analyst, which spanslots of different technologies.
The admin role for Salesforceis very, very different than
almost any other technology thatI've seen.
So it's a really hard problemto solve.
But I think what we'll start tosee is, as the functionality of
Salesforce has expanded, adminshave grown in their careers,

(51:47):
expanded their capabilities andskills as well.
It's hard to see if that's everpatient, ever title or whatever
will be, but I'm glad to hearthat you had that conversation
too, vanessa, because I thinkit's really important not only
for the talent in this ecosystembut for the companies trying to
hire the talent too.

Exactly.
I was just thinking, as youwere talking, that it's almost
like we're putting theresponsibility on the people
that are looking for the jobs tohave all these skills, rather
than educating the people whoare responsible for their
Salesforce orgs to ensure thattheir teams have all these
skills across, however manypeople.
But do we have somebody who'sin charge of project management?

(52:27):
Do we have somebody that'sgoing to be wearing that BA hat?
Do we have somebody that'sconsidering user experience
design?
That's where I think maybewe're just putting too much on
the folks that are looking tobreak in, as opposed to
companies teaching them how tomaintain their orgs in a healthy

(52:48):
way, so that they don't have toburn the thing to the ground
every five years and rebuild.

That's tricky.
That's really, really, trust me.
I mean I talked to morecompanies than Salesforce
partners than anyone else I know.
Salesforce partners generally,fortunately, tend to get it, but
Salesforce customers, I mean,they can't even figure out
compensation.
They don't know what to do,they have no idea.

(53:15):
They go to salarycom and theygo to the Mason Frank guide and
those numbers aren't alwaysreally super accurate, they're
just not.
Some years I've seen it bebetter than others, but it's
just a little bit inaccurate.
When we're taking intoconsideration US citizens and
green cards, people who are herein the States, they command a

(53:38):
higher compensation wage thanpeople who are here operating
through a third-party vendorwho's holding their passport for
them, who's holding their H1Bvisa.
Do you guys agree?
I mean, this is what I see.
It's like there's twoecosystems there's the direct
higher ecosystem, or the citizenecosystem, and then there's the

(54:02):
H1B or visa ecosystem, which ishuge.
It's enormous, but I think itcan skew numbers.
What do you guys think?

Nick Hamm (54:13):
Yeah, I think it can, and Kristen probably based on
her past experience.
We could speak to this andshould.
But I would say, in addition tothat, it's really mostly around
just how were theirexpectations set, around what
they should pay and what theyshould be looking for.
How were they informed on that?

(54:33):
Was it salarycom?
Was it through a recruiter likeyou, josh, or was it through a
friend at another company?
Or there's no de facto standardfor this.
Like he said, most partnersknow this because it's their
business, but most customersthis is not their business.
This is just another role thatthey have at their company and

(54:54):
they don't really have greatresources to figure out what to
ask for and what to pay.

Yeah, and that's why they should really be
working with experiencedrecruiters, even if it's just a
free session and we offer that,by the way, I'm sure you guys do
as well it's like, well, whatdo you need?
Like, what's your challenge?
And, like I said, I had aconversation today it's like, oh
, we need a developer.
It's like, I don't know, maybeyou need an architect and a
consultant, like, maybe that'sthe way to go forward.

(55:21):
And when we look at to yourpoint, vanessa, these folks who
are sort of adding on to theirtoolkit, these Swiss Army Knives
of you know, the Swiss ArmyKnives individuals, they can do
a lot of different things, right?
The question is, which of themcan they do really well?
If I'm going out backpacking, ifI'm going to go do some solo

(55:42):
backpacking right, I don't wanta Swiss Army Knives.
Swiss Army Knives is for theglove box.
As far as I'm concerned, if I'mgoing out, I want my Becker
BK99 inch, you know, logsplitting knife.
Like that's what I want.
That's my preferred knife whenI go camping, because I don't
need to bring an axe and I canchop up wood and have a nice
campfire Maybe not here inFlorida, but in the Pacific

(56:06):
Northwest, where I did most ofmy camping Right.
So how do you find that thatnine inch knife that's designed
just for you know X, y, z,versus thinking that you need to
go get a Swiss Army Knife whenyou don't Right Now everyone's
just wasted a hundred bucks, soyou got to be careful with that
stuff.
This would be a really goodfuture episode, I think, just an

(56:30):
educational episodespecifically for customers,
about how to identify what theiractual needs are and then how
to set reasonable expectationsabout what kind of value they're
going to get from a consultantor from a direct hire in those
compensation ranges.
So that's what they can expect.
What do you guys think?

No, I think so , josh.
I was going to say, you know,in my previous life working for
another consultancy but alsohiring for people internally to
work across the enterprisesystem org, a lot of times when
we are pulling comp it was moregeneral roles versus truly

(57:12):
looking at, you know, specificskill sets within, like the
Salesforce ecosystem.
You know we would work withMercer and understanding their
comp data, but it was so wide ofranges it just did not align to
what our town acquisition teamwas seeing in the market but
that's what the budgets were setat.

(57:34):
So then the budgets are setthere and then you as the town
acquisition team go to recruitand there's just such a huge
misalignment.
So I agree with you of beingable to educate customers on
what to look for in the roles,what those roles are, as well as

(57:54):
you know, compensationalignment, especially for
different regions, and I thinkif you
look at the report.
That's why you're also seeing,you know, there was an increase
or the demand for developers was, even though it slowed right,
it slowed the least.
But I think in that instancesome of that was because people

(58:17):
were firms were potentiallylooking outside of North America
for that talent, and that's not, and trying to, I guess, a
square peg into a circle orwhatever it's called, because
maybe it is a little bit lessexpensive.

So just a quick thing I could just want to
remember.
At one point I threw out onTwitter that I wish that
whenever somebody bought aSalesforce license for the first
time, that it would kind of belike Petco when you buy the
hamster for the first time andPetco hands you that like little
how to care for your hamster.
That I wish that there was likea nice booklet, you know, with
lots of pictures on how to youknow the care and feeding of

(59:04):
your healthy Salesforce org.
And I thought I remembered 10Kactually putting out something
like that.

Nick Hamm (59:11):
Yeah, I was gonna.
Not exactly.
You know I would aspire tosomething that good because I'd
agree with you, customers needthat.
It's gotten better.
But especially in the earlydays they were not informed on
what they really needed to makesuccess happen with Salesforce.
But a few years ago we put outour Salesforce operational

(59:32):
excellence handbook and you know, josh, to your point.
What we were trying to helpcustomers understand is what are
the factors that you need tothink about in building a
Salesforce team?
Right, not necessarily how manypeople you need or what are the
specifics of.
You know, if you have thisproduct, you need this.
Right.
But you know what are the sortof pillars that you need to

(59:56):
build a center of excellence,right, that is so important to
think about rather than justthinking about I need a
developer or I need an admin?
Right, because it has to be inthe context of so many other
things.
Right, what's yourorganizational structure?
Is it under the business or isit under IT?
What other resources do youhave to support Salesforce, if
any, you know?

(01:00:16):
Do you have governance?
Do you have a support process?
Do you have other centers ofexcellence within your company?
Are you looking for somebody tojust manage the org and use
consultants, or are you lookingto have the majority of the
talent in-house?
How many clouds did you buy?
How many users do you have?
There's just so many differentfactors to that, but I think

(01:00:38):
specific to the admin role.
You know we've talked about thestratification of how many
different skills you're expectedto have.
Well, if you're part of a hugeteam that has technical
architects and tech leads anddevelopers and solution
architects, you probably andproject managers and product
managers and business analysts,like you can go with an admin
who doesn't have all those right, because you really might need

(01:01:00):
that person to do a veryspecific set of tasks so that
they don't require them to haveall that.
But if you're hiring a soloadmin, you're gonna need more of
those different types of skills, right?
So the environment that they'recoming into and how that
company is planning to supportSalesforce and that investment
that they're making into it it'sstill critical to figure out

(01:01:20):
really what they need, but mostcompanies don't think about that
, right, they're thinking aboutthat one.
Well, I need somebody, right,because I bought this and maybe
do some stuff right Exactly.

Josh Matthews (01:01:32):
Unfortunately, it's harder than that.
It's much harder than that.
You know, I had an interestingexperience on Thursday, just
before we did the podcast.
I thought, okay, I'm gonna godo some.
Billy on the street, I went overto Yerba Buena Park where
everybody was having lunch and Iwalked around with my little
PodTrak P4, zoom PodTrak P4microphone and I just went up to
strangers and asked him if Icould ask him some questions.

(01:01:54):
I'd say, like you know, half ofthem said no, they didn't wanna
be on the microphone.
But the ones that I did talk to, I talked to several folks who
were hiring managers and I usedto ask this magic question right
, like if you could push abutton and maybe I asked it once
or twice, I don't know but like, hey, if you could push a

(01:02:15):
button and have someone in yourcompany right now, what would
that role be?
That's how I used to ask it.
And last week I switched it upand I was asking folks okay, if
you could push a button and havesomeone show up, what would you
be having them do?
Right, like what needs to beaccomplished in your
organization?

(01:02:35):
That's a way better questionthan asking a customer
specifically a customer thatmight not know too much about
the ecosystem, what job titlethey want, right, because
they'll say developer and theymean consultant, they'll say
technical architect and theymean BA, like they just don't
always have it down right.

(01:02:56):
So, whether whoever's listeningto this show, if you're also in
the ecosystem and you're arecruiter, it's not a bad little
bit of advice to take, which isto stop asking what the job
title is that you want to filland start asking what are the
responsibilities or what they'retrying to accomplish on their
team, and then you can help them, then you can coach them, yeah.

Nick Hamm (01:03:18):
At least half the people that approach us are
initially asking for developers,like I need a developer or I
need a couple of developers, butthen that's an immediate signal
to ask okay, what are youreally trying to accomplish?
And the majority of the timewe'll help with the developer,
but that developer is supported,just like you mentioned earlier

(01:03:38):
, by an architect, by a techlead by QA, by BA, right, by a
more well-rounded team, becauseyou can't really expect a
developer to be able to do allthose things, just like you
can't expect the BA to be ableto do all those things.
Right, but all those things arerequired for success and most
companies just don't know that,yeah, they don't.

It's like, yeah, what kind of car do you want?
Well, I want a sports carthat's really good in the snow
and can clear a 12-inch curb.
Like that doesn't exist, right,like it's just not the same car
.
You can't get it, you gottapick one.
But more likely it's better tohave a garage full of sort of

(01:04:20):
fractional cars that you get touse, depending on the conditions
.
And it's no different when itcomes to, particularly, a
customer that doesn'tnecessarily need full-time
people, but they're trying tobuild something out, or they
just.
Maybe it's a partner and theyjust landed some big new account
and they know that they'regonna have to have an extra five
resources for the next sixmonths, but maybe they won't

(01:04:41):
need them six months down theline, right, and it's way better
to build a team and have peoplebasically sharing those hours
and applying their expertise forthe hours that they are
involved, then hiring fivepeople and losing your shirt
because you're spending too muchmoney, right, or hiring one
person who just doesn't put ittogether the right way.

Nick Hamm (01:05:05):
Or what happens a lot of times and this goes back to
the point about architects andthe drop in demand for them they
go somewhere else becausethey're bored or you're not
utilizing them in the right way,right, that happens all the
time, totally, totally.

I hear it all the time.
People are like yeah, I wannahire an architect and then after
three months they're mostlygonna do development and it's
like after three months they'regonna leave, they don't wanna do
development, they're anarchitect.

Nick Hamm (01:05:32):
And the same goes for admins, too, right?
I just use architect as anexample.
But same goes for admins, right?
Even though there's less demand, there's still lots of mobility
.
So you're not only wasting sortof the money on potential roles
that you don't need, but thatcost of hiring someone and then

(01:05:55):
then leaving and then having tofind somebody else to fill that
role, right?
I'm sure you've seen it a tonof times, your point about doing
an episode on just that.
It might be a series.

Yeah, it could be a series.

Nick Hamm (01:06:06):
It's a great idea?

Yeah, definitely, and maybe we'll have you back
for that, because it's importantand it's gotta happen.
Educating the customer so thatthey're knowledgeable, it's
critical.
Look guys, the reality isattrition in the United States
it's 47%, right?
That means that the averageemployee 47 out of 100 employees

(01:06:28):
aren't in that role a yearlater.
Now, that's a bad number.
It's a pretty normal number,okay, and that number has not
changed that much over the last15 years.
It's still the case.
I think it's a little bitbetter in tech because we're
including all non-farm jobs inthat sort of a number.

(01:06:49):
But tech attrition is 30% ayear, and so often it's just
because, well, either A don'tknow how to attract the right
people.
B don't know how to manage themonce they're on board.
C they thought they needed A,but what they really needed was
B, so they just hired the wrongskill set for the role too Like.

(01:07:12):
There's so many reasons whythese things don't go well, and
usually it's because you've gotthe giddy person who can't wait
to land a job, so they're allgung-ho on everything.
Oh yeah, I could do that, I'llfigure it out right.
And then you've got the clientsthat don't know how to ask the
questions to differentiatebetween poor, average and highly
successful.

(01:07:32):
And so, and there you go.
Now you have high attrition.
I was having dinner with one ofmy favorite people in the world,
my uncle Dennis, who lives inthe Bay Area.
So we went out to a waterfrontrestaurant where they were
having the manufacturing clouddinner or something like that,

(01:07:53):
and he quoted someone who was incharge.
I think this person was incharge of I don't know.
It was a very, very seniorperson, a president level at
Wells Fargo where he'd worked,and he had told Dennis years ago
he'd said look, for everyperson that you hire, you're
gonna have to hire two.
Right, you gotta hire twopeople to get one person.
Now, it doesn't have to be likethat, but that is the majority

(01:08:18):
of companies experience thatthey have to go through two
people to finally get to theright one.
So it's smart to work with agood recruiter, it's worth it to
work and sorry if this soundslike a plug, it is a plug, but
honest to God.
I also feel like it's a moralobligation that we've got to
protect people from blowingtheir money from hiring the

(01:08:38):
wrong people, because you can Isaw this the other day.
It's like you can either infector affect a team.
Right, I know what it was.
I was watching Coach Prime withmy buddy the other day and Deion
Sanders was saying that you'reeither gonna infect the team or
you're gonna affect the team.
And it's just as easy to hiresomeone who infects the team and

(01:09:01):
poisons the team poisons thefamily, so to speak as it is to
hire the right person.
But if you don't know how to dothat, get the help.
At least watch some videos,something like that.
I'd like to, if we can.
I'm sorry, go ahead, go ahead.

Nick Hamm (01:09:15):
No, josh, I was gonna say one thing to that, because
I think one of the sort of mostunderrated aspects of using a
recruiter and we see this in ourbusiness too is having a
mediator when things don't goright.
Right, so things might be greatduring the interview process.
You get in there and all of asudden there was a
mis-expectation or something.

(01:09:38):
There's a hiccup, whatever itis.
That doesn't mean it has to bethe end right.
But a lot of times when it'sjust employee and company or
consultant and company, it'sreally easy for them to just end
it right there, right.
But a lot of times, having sortof that third party that's been
up a part of the journey, comein and help make that decision,
maybe the decision should beyeah, that's right, get out of

(01:09:59):
there, right.
But maybe it's like hey, let'sall get on the same page here.
That can help save a lot oftime and headaches as well.
So I know that's probably not aservice that you preach about,
but that's something that likeat 10K, we're not a marketplace.
It's not like you just come tous and say, hey, I need some
talent, and we introduce you tosomebody and then you're off on

(01:10:21):
your way, right.
We wanna make sure everyonethere is successful.
Of course You've got someonesuccessful, the expert
successful, because there willbe other opportunities with both
at some point in the future.
So it's in everyone's bestinterest for that relationship
to be successful and a lot oftimes when companies are just
going direct higher, they'remissing out on that opportunity
and that service.

Yeah, absolutely.
I remember, looking at somescary numbers it was something
like the average tech staffingfirm for contract this isn't for
direct higher for contract thatthere were issues in 30 to 35%
of all placements within thefirst 30 to 60 days.
I mean that's bad, that's bad,it's expensive and fortunately,

(01:11:06):
yeah, if you're working with areputable company and a smart
recruiter, you can sort offigure it out and navigate it
and hopefully save it 50 to 75%of the time.
Sometimes it just was a badplacement.
So the reality is is likeyou've gotta get this stuff
right and you gotta get it rightfrom the get go.
And you're gonna see more ofthat, nick, I think in

(01:11:29):
fractional placement and incontract placement than direct
higher, which is, of course, amuch more exhaustive process
because it's a much greater feeand it's a little bit.
It's paid up front.
It's not necessarily paid overa year or two years or what have
you.
So we're gonna see that morewith contract.
I certainly saw it more when Iwas working in a firm where the

(01:11:50):
majority of our work wascontract.
But yeah, figuring that out whenit goes sideways, what do you
do?
Where's the miscommunication?
And, by God, did you documentstuff?
I mean we document everything.
I type pretty much as fast as Italk, so everything that's
being said is being typed.
Of course, you don't need to dothat anymore.
You can just have AI recordedfor you.
Now we're coming to about.

(01:12:10):
It's been about an hour and Iwanna make sure that we cover
the a little bit about theecosystem trends, and I wanna
say it was on your second tolast page of the report where
you talk about AI for a littlebit.
So I know some people arenervous about how AI is going to
affect their role.
Some people think that it'sgoing to enhance it, other

(01:12:30):
people think it may put them outof a job.
But you have a nice take on it.
That I really appreciated.
Maybe you could just summarizethat for us here.

Nick Hamm (01:12:40):
Sorry.
I'm trying to get off mute there.
Yeah, I mean, hey, pandora'sbox is open, right?
You can't put that genie backin the bottle.
And so, number one, my adviceis, afraid or not, you have to
embrace it and don't just standon the sidelines and wait to see

(01:13:01):
what happens.
Be part of making what you wantto happen happen, and you'll be
in a good spot.
So there's lots of learningopportunities out there.
Nobody really knows what'sgoing to happen, but I think we
do know that, at a minimum, aiis going to be a tool in the

(01:13:24):
toolkit, just like an IDE is.

Vanessa Grant (01:13:27):
For a developer.
You know what I'm gonna throw itout there, because I think this
also applies to this report,where it says that the role that
had the highest level of Ibelieve was it supply growth and
demand growth was businessanalysts.

(01:13:47):
And if we're talking about AI,exactly what you said, nick and
this is actually part of mypresentation at Dreamforce is
the idea that we don't knowwhat's coming in the future.
But we do know what we can donow to prepare for the future,
and I think business analystsare kind of at the forefront of
that.
You know, how are we doing ourdocumentation and our orgs?

(01:14:08):
How are we documenting ourbusiness processes?
How are we moving forward oncleaning up our technical debt
so that we can get thingsprepared for whatever AI comes
in the future?
How are we updating ourdescriptions so that AI can read
them properly?
I think business analysis isgoing to be huge and I don't

(01:14:31):
know how much of that number isbased on the AI future that's
coming, but I don't know that Isee that number decreasing
anytime soon with AI coming.

Well, I'm a little confused here, because I
thought business analysts wasone of the lowest increases in
demand year over year, in factshowing a 51% decrease overall.
Did I get this wrong?

I see business analysts saw the highest global
supply growth 34% year over yearand highest demand growth 55%
year over year, suggesting thatadministrators are leveling up
to more specialized roles.

Kristin Langlois (01:15:09):
Was that that might be last year's report?

Oh no.

That sounds like last year's report.
This year it's not so good forthe BAs, Vanessa.

Oh no, tell me the bad news I was reading last
year's there.

We did see a big increase last year, but this
year the supply growth forbusiness analysts was the lowest
.
What Among all?

roles at 18%.

I'm horrified.

Yeah, it's tricky number there to work with.

So one of the things that we were I guess our
hypothesis was just looking atwhat, the certification coming
out last year and the I wouldsay that the marketing behind it
, behind Salesforce, that's whywe saw such an increase.
But this year it kind of took adownturn again.

I think it's a luxury role for a lot of
companies.
I would agree with that, liketechnical architect luxury role,
business analyst luxury role,and whether they, even though
they need it we all know thatand, by the way, I'm pretty
certain, vanessa, that demandlast year that it grew so much,
partially because of you.
That's what I think, just soyou know.

So you're saying I'm 30% less effective than I
was last year?
No, that's disappointing, nothat's disappointing.

Look, it's a luxury role, right?
So it's the first one to getcut.
That's just how it goes.

Yeah, I mean I do see where, like admins, again
it's the let's putresponsibility on admins to be
everything where BAs can turninto a hat, whereas admins I
think it's very difficult toturn them into a hat that
somebody else wears.
That's in another full-timerole.
But gosh, with the complexityincreasing, especially with AI,

(01:17:06):
I just that shocks me a bit thatBAs aren't becoming more
prominent.
Very disappointing.

Nick Hamm (01:17:16):
But Well, what I think you'll see to Vanessa's
this data is basically from kindof last August to this August
or last July, this July, right.
So it was really, I think, whatthe beginning of this year, end
of last year, when we startedseeing a lot of the noise around
generally AI start.

(01:17:38):
So it'll be interesting to seenext year, once you sort of had
a full cycle, how that affects alot of these roles.
But I think what both PatrickStokes at Salesforce and what we
think is there's a couple ofroles that really stand to
benefit from these tools todayquite a bit, and that those are

(01:18:03):
admins and developers and Iwould include BAs in that as
well, sort of in that admin camp, just because of the efficiency
gains that those roles and notonly efficiency but productivity
gains that those roles canexperience.
I mean, we've seen it in ourown business, right, how we can

(01:18:25):
do things more efficiently withthese tools and make our
consultants more efficient withthese tools and more effective
with these tools at really noadded cost to our customers and
no additional expense of theseexperts.
And so those are the thingsthat companies are going to be
looking for with AI.
Number one how can I do thingsthat I couldn't do before.

(01:18:48):
But really, more importantly,especially in the economic
environment that we're in, howcan I do things more efficiently
?
So if you're, for example, adeveloper who's like like I,
like writing code and AI isgoing to take my job and I'm
just going to put my feet downand I'm not going to do it
because I love developing,that's the sort of developer

(01:19:09):
that is going to get left behind.
The developer that is going tobe prepared for the future is a
developer who says look, this isa tool that can make me way
more effective, help me writeway better code I can have the
productivity of.
I can have better productivitythan anybody else on my team.
Companies love those people.
It's a business, right.
They are there to do things ascheaply as possible, right, and

(01:19:32):
make the most money that theycan out of it.
That's how business works.
So if you look at it from thatperspective, then the folks who
can really harness these toolsto drive more productivity and
better quality work at a highervolume, which these things can
do it very well those are thefolks that, in the short term

(01:19:54):
especially, are going to bepoised for success.
But then this is all just thefoundation for what's going to
happen over the next decade,right, and it's moving so fast
that if you just kind of sit onthe sidelines and wait to watch
it happen, the advances aregoing to happen so fast that
it's going to be harder to breakin the longer you wait.
So really, my advice there isdon't wait.

(01:20:19):
Just even if you're readingstuff or taking a class or
playing with it, just exposeyourself to it if you can and
don't just kind of say, hey,like I'm scared of this, I'm not
going to touch it.

Yeah, don't be a Luddite in the Salesforce
ecosystem, right, come on.

Yeah, and one of the things that we touched on
last week and our presentationwas also don't get overwhelmed
by looking at everything in yourorg and going, okay, how do I
make AI read it properly.
We talked about kind ofbuilding an AI backlog where you
have it by business process, sogetting educated on AI and then

(01:20:58):
so that way you understand thevocabulary, understand the
capabilities, and then lookingat your business processes and
starting from that top businessprocess, so what's the business
process that could benefit themost based on your organization
that would be able to benefitfrom AI?
And then seeing where thatbusiness process touches your
org so what are the fields, whatare the automations, and

(01:21:20):
working on those first.
So you're not just startingfrom like, okay, let me look at
every field in my org, from A toZ, and start updating the
descriptions and deprecatingthings and cleaning up that data
, like you'll barely get past Abefore you're frustrated,
whereas if you prioritize a bit,it'll be a little less daunting
.

Yeah, I think prioritizing things is a really
good idea, and you're right.
I mean, it's like how do youeat an elephant?
One bite at a time, but you gotto take those steps.
That's the critical thing here.
Man, this has been a fun show.
We've covered a lot of stuff.
I want to be sensitive to timeand also find out do we have any
folks who have some questionsthat Nick and Kristen can answer

(01:22:00):
, or for our normal panel?
Or Mike even, or me, or Vanessa?
Vanessa, do you want to sharewith people how they can ask a
question on the show real quick?

Sure, if anybody wants to send me a DM on Twitter
, I'm RLVanessa Grant feelV-A-N-E-S-S-A-G-R-A-N-T.
Feel free to send me anyquestions, if you have them, and
either we'll cover them now orwe'll cover them on the next
show.

All right, and I'm kind of curious, kristen, if
there's something based on thisreport, I'm kind of looking or
interested in you sharing, ifyou can, two bits of advice.
One would be for a newcomer,right, sure, and then the other
one would be for someone who's alittle more established, say
three or more years.

(01:22:48):
What do you think they canexpect and what might they do to
adapt to the current state ofaffairs in the economy and the
ecosystem?

Definitely so.
For somebody that's new, Iwould say.
It's not just all aboutcertifications, right, it's
where obviously certificationsare crucial and it's really
important to your training andlearning.
But I would spend more of yourtime.
I would get one or twocertifications.
Then I would spend your timereally looking at how can you

(01:23:21):
get access to a potential org tobe able to have real hands-on
experience.
I always talk to people aboutare there nonprofits you can
volunteer at?
And I know I'm sure lots of.
I think people are starting tohear that over and over again
and like, what else can I do?
But that's crucial is gettingthat hands-on experience in

(01:23:43):
alignment with training and howyou do that.
You do it through networking,right.
You put yourself out there.
You put yourself out there likecrazy.
It's not an easy thing to do,but once you kind of get into
that routine of promotingyourself, you'll you'll become
more comfortable with it andnobody's gonna promote yourself
like For you, right, you have todo it.

(01:24:03):
So that's, I Would say morethan a green thing.
That's what I would.
I would suggest and you know,just put your else.
You know, reach out to peoplewithin the ecosystem and say,
hey, I'm really impressed withhow you've gotten to where you
are in your career.
Well, you might just talk to meabout how you've done it.
You start to get people thatare advocates for you and that

(01:24:28):
will turn into an opportunity.
But you do have to be, I wouldsay, just really tenacious and
want it Can.

I just I was just gonna ask if the same advice
would apply.
I noticed on the lease thereport that I saw.
Apologies, I didn't have the2023, but if you're still
covering International, is itthe same advice that you'd given
more of the emerging markets?

I Think that advice can go across completely.
There's probably it, there'sprobably more opportunity In
emerging markets at this point.
As you're seeing, there is moredemand happening at a, I'd say,
at like a higher pace Foremerging markets.
So I would say there's probablymore opportunity for those in

(01:25:21):
those emerging markets.
But you should still dowhatever it can do, whatever you
can, to stand out.
So I I think that just goesacross all markets.

Right on.
And then what about advice forpeople who are more mid career
or minimum three plus years?

Yeah, I mean, I think, as we've talked about
on the podcast, we've seen, andyou know, just talk about how
you know Just how big Salesforcehas gotten in all the different
areas the clouds, the verticals, the industries.
So I think really,specialization is going to be,

(01:26:01):
you know, big area to focus andespecially continue to keep
yourself, you know, up to speedon AI.
I think doing those two thingswill will definitely help you
stand out when it comes to theSalesforce ecosystem.

Thank you, kristen.
Nick, what about you?
Final parting words of advicefor a couple different groups of
our listeners.

Nick Hamm (01:26:24):
Yeah, I mean I would echo everything Kristen said,
but I think your level ofexperience, find something that
you love to do.
Right, you could chase the mostin-demand thing, but if you get
plenty of work and you hate it,you're not gonna have fun.
So find something.
Explore your trailhead orCommunity groups or whatever it

(01:26:47):
is fine.
Find something that you'rereally passionate about that you
can really sink your teeth intoand go deep on, because that is
what customers Are reallylooking for in a niche, not just
somebody who knows lots ofniches, somebody who's really
deep on one or two right thatare related.

(01:27:07):
And again, I think the mostimportant thing is you know you
got to be passionate about it.
Customers want to want to seeyour passion, they want to feel
your passion and if they don'tand Just because you're really
smart doesn't mean you knowyou're gonna get the role or
that you're gonna be selectedthey want to know that you know
this is something that you arereally into and that when you

(01:27:28):
run into that roadblock thatyou're gonna hit eventually
You're gonna figure it out,because you really want to
figure it out, because you'repassionate about figuring it out
.
So you know that's just myadvice in general is there's
especially a lot of peoplecoming in this ecosystem, maybe
because They've heard thatthere's a lot of opportunity,
job changers, and I'd love that.
But also make sure it'ssomething that you are

(01:27:50):
passionate about and you're notjust doing it because you think
you can make more money.

Exactly.

Nick Hamm (01:27:54):
That's gonna show customers are gonna recognize
that.

Yeah, and so will your family, because you won't
be super happy.
In fact, we cover this in youknow, to a fair amount of you
know in a fair amount of detailon the last show which, again,
it got launched today, so youcan just go to type in
Salesforce career or Salesforcecareer show on your favorite
podcast platform.

(01:28:18):
If you're listening live rightnow, if you're listening when
this is actually released on theactual podcast, well then you
already know where to find us.
But if you just track back oneweek's, you know one week ago,
from when this gets releasednext Tuesday or Wednesday,
listen to that, because it isit's absolutely important and
you got to try different things.
Just try it out.
You know, try it on for size.

(01:28:39):
You know, I don't know how, how.
You know how successful peoplehave been.
You know order.
You know ordering a shirt or asuit online and then being
surprised when it doesn't fit ithelps.
You go to the store, try it on.
You know One of my sons, he's17.
He's a senior and he said youknow, dad, he just said this

(01:28:59):
week and he said you know how Ithought I was kind of interested
in maybe going into finance.
I said, yeah, he's like well,forget it, man, I'm taking a
class.
I'm not into it at all.
It's like, oh good, now youknow, and sounds like you're a
lot like me Because I'm not intofinance either.
So you know, figure out what,figure out what you want to do,
and You'll hear it in the lastepisode.

(01:29:21):
I recommend, if you're reallybrand new, take a personality
test Now.
You can't hurt, you know, andit can be very practical and
helpful.
You can take these differentcareer tests.
Just take a good one.
If it costs a little bit ofmoney, spend the.
Spend the 20 bucks or the 50bucks or whatever it costs, just
to help kind of affirm what youmight be challenged.
Articulating, saying aboutyourself and you can use that as

(01:29:45):
a guide to a to a degreedoesn't mean cut off all other
opportunities Just because youknow you're now fitting in this
little tiny bot personality boxto.
You know she shared that she'dfound the technical person
inside of her right.
Remember that.
Yeah, so, yeah, so like youknow, you can emerge.
You can grow.

(01:30:05):
It doesn't have to be, it canbe a little bit like you know a
song on an album back whenpeople used to listen to entire
albums and I don't know ifthey're doing it so much these
days is playlist.
But back in the day you know,you'd get your album and it was
a tape and you just like put iton, you listen to the whole damn
thing.
And I remember I remember beingit at Tower Records in London I

(01:30:27):
was 14 years old and I was like, oh my god, what is that song?
Well, it was kiss me, kiss me,kiss me by the cure.
Now, I'd never listened to thecure before, but that song it
grabbed me.
Oh, sorry, no, it wasn't kissme, kiss me, kiss me.
That was the album.
It was just like heaven, whichis a really great pop song, okay
, and I loved it and I boughtthe CD and I listened, or bought
the tape and I listened to thetape like Till till it was, you

(01:30:50):
know, basically shreds anddestroyed.
That was not my favorite song onthe album.
There were others that I likedmore, but I was kind of
uncomfortable with some of thatmusic because I grew up on like
pop music and disco, basicallyright.
And so listening to some ofthis heavier stuff that they
produce on the album is a littlebit new to me, sort of like me,
listening to Jane's addictionfor the first time is like well,

(01:31:11):
what's?
This is a little heavy for me,you know.
But eventually you getcomfortable with it.
And then your favorite song onthe album isn't the one that
caught your ear, it's not thecatchiest one, that's the one
that's most likely to burn outFastest, right, it's the least
complex, it's the most pop,right, and so careers can be
like that too.
So try them on, for size,whether it's, and.
And then make sure that you'regiving that album more than one

(01:31:33):
listen, because just because youdon't like it the first time,
chances are you don't like itbecause you don't really
understand it yet, andunderstand it Shouldn't be your
barrier.
Yeah, and that's where having agreat manager that'll, that'll
let you.

Try out different things and and really kind of
nudge you in differentdirections and be supportive.
If you're not, amazing, day oneis is a huge help.
I mean, I I know we don't talkabout Finding good managers, but
man, are they they important incareers?
Yeah, they're critical.
That's another episode.
How do I get to?

that.
Yeah, they're critical.
That's another episode.
How do I identify this person'sgoing to be a you know, a good
manager, Like that's these.
I'm glad we're coming up withthese good ideas.
One thing I mean you.

But one thing I did want to ask before we close
out the show is uh, where can wefind this salesforce talent
ecosystem report, the mostcurrent one, please?

Nick Hamm (01:32:30):
Yeah, for sure.
If you go to 10kviewcom Ibelieve it's on the home page
you could also click on thethought leadership Uh link at
the top to find this report, aswell as Everything else that we
referenced last year's report,if you want to read that one or
any going back to 2018, as wellas the operational excellence
handbook.

All right.
Well, thank you, nick, thankyou christin.
This has been a great episode.
I've really enjoyed learningmore about the the salesforce
talent ecosystem report.
I enjoyed reading it, but I Ienjoyed even more getting more
insight, um from the two of you.
Thank you for all of theclarification, all of the
insight and all of therecommendations to our listeners
as well.
We will be back in two weekswith our live show.

(01:33:12):
This show will air probablynext wednesday morning, is my
guess, and I'm hoping to puttogether For a just a small,
maybe a little 20 minute littleum podcast the following week,
which will be thoseconversations that I had out at
yerba buena park where I metvenessa for the very first time,

(01:33:33):
even though she'd been on theshow.
And we have a nice old videofrom df19 Up on the salesforce
recruitercom so you can checkout that old one.
It's the first time we met.
And then, if you go on tolinkedin, you can see me and
venessa hanging out at thismichael force cigar shindig and
some other photos of us at dreamforce last year.
And if you're curious what weall look like when we were doing

(01:33:54):
a purely live show, like liveaudience show, you can check out
that picture.
It's the most recent post I'vegot on twitter right now and
you'll see me and our friendsfrom circante Um right there.
Okay, everybody, thank you for awonderful episode again.
Christin, nick, you guys arefantastic.
I love all of yourcontributions to the ecosystem
and also to our programs thesecond time we've had you guys

(01:34:17):
on, so thank you so much forspending your valuable time with
us and helping to enhance thelives of people who are trying
to Boost their careers here inthe ecosystem.
Everybody have a wonderful weekand if you need to get in touch
with Christian or nick or youwant to download the report,
remember it's 10k view one zerok wcom.
All right, everybody, have agreat week and we'll talk to you

(01:34:40):
soon.
Bye for now.

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