November 8, 2024 • 40 mins
Wallace Thornton Jr., a minister and independent scholar with deep expertise in the Holiness movement, shares his journey through over 30 years of ministry, which includes teaching church history across three colleges, pastoring, and writing extensively on the Holiness movement. Known for his works like Radical Righteousness and When the Fire Fell, he offers unique insights into the origins and spread of this movement, tracing its influence across denominations and even continents. Wallace explains key themes of the Holiness tradition, including the concept of a second work of grace, entire sanctification, and how it has impacted church communities globally.
Mr. Thornton also discusses the movement’s evolution, exploring "radical Holiness" and how the movement's flexibility allowed it to reach places like Russia, Japan, and Papua New Guinea. This conversation is a journey through history, touching on the theological roots of the Holiness movement, its global expansion, and its impact on Christian thought. Tune in to discover a fresh perspective on faith and the power of historical influence in shaping beliefs and practices.
Learn more about studying Biblical and Religious Studies at Sattler College.
Timestamps:
0:00 – Introduction and Background
1:03 – What is the Holiness Movement?
3:39 – Origins and Key Figures in the Movement
7:40 – Influence of Phoebe Palmer and the 19th Century Holiness Revival
12:30 – Key Distinctions of Holiness Beliefs
19:10 – Practical Takeaways from Holiness History
26:30 – Stewardship and Accountability in Christian Life
33:00 – Reflections on Spiritual Mentorship and Community
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zack Johnson (00:04):
it is october 15th , 2024 and I'm here with wallace
thornton jr.
Is that right?
All right, I just met your sonnamed will and it's named after
you, but you run by wallace yeswell, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna start by just readinga bio about you and then we'll
jump right in and you feel freeto correct me, or I.
(00:26):
I think this was written by your, by you, so it's it'll be hard
to go wrong.
So wallace thornton jr is aminister, an independent scholar
, who holds degrees from theuniversity of kentucky, god's
bible school and college andcincinnati bible seminary.
His ministry of over 30 yearshas included teaching church
history at three colleges,speaking at numerous conferences
(00:47):
and preaching in over a dozendenominations, including a
10-year pastorate and, when theFire Fell, articles in the
(01:08):
Wesleyan Theological Journal andWorld Christianity and the
Fourfold Gospel andcontributions to counterpoint
dialogue with jury on theholiness movement.
He's also served as associateeditor of the third edition of
the Historical Dictionary of theHoliness Movement.
So I feel like the word that'srepeated most in your bio is
holiness movement.
So I can't wait to get intothat with you and I just want to
(01:28):
say so.
I made connections with youthrough David Eicher, who
basically heard when you werecoming to Boston and said you
have to get him in here.
You've had a profound impact onhis life, so thank you so much
for joining me.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (01:39):
Well, it's a privilege to be here and
it was a privilege to have DavidEichler as a student several
years ago More years than I'dlike to think about but he was a
wonderful representation of theAnabaptist tradition in a
Holiness Movement setting and wedeveloped a great friendship.
Zack Johnson (02:00):
Glad to be here and we developed a great
friendship.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (02:02):
Glad to be here.
Zack Johnson (02:03):
Well, yeah, so I thought I would just ask you is
there anything that you think Ishould know about you that
didn't come out in your bio?
I know?
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (02:19):
we've been chatting or that might be
relevant to anybody who justheard your bio and might be
listening to what you're aboutto say.
Well, it might seem from thebio that I'm singularly focused
on studying the Holonessmovement and I'm very dedicated
to that.
But I do have wide interest andactually, as I mentioned before
the podcast, I began college asa chemistry major at Berea
College in Kentucky which,interestingly enough, I
(02:39):
discovered after I was a studentthere discovered after I was a
student there had rootsconnected with the Holiness
Movement through Charles Finneyin Oberlin, and John G Fee, who
started Berea, was actually astudent at Oberlin and actually
wrote a book on Christianperfection.
So it has amazed me how far theHoliness Movement has had
(03:06):
connections, especially throughmovements like abolition and
temperance.
Zack Johnson (03:14):
Well, why don't we just start with what the
Holiness Movement is as a verybasic way to start, and then we
can talk about what you'vewritten and what you're
passionate about?
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (03:30):
What is the Holiness Movement to
somebody who's never heard aboutit?
All right, well, it'sinteresting that you were asked,
because roughly 200 years agouh, several scholars would say
is when the holiness movementbegan with the publication of a
little book called the ChristianManual by Timothy Merritt.
Now, timothy Merritt was aMethodist minister.
I don't think he realized atthe time how revolutionary the
(03:56):
little booklet that he wasputting together would be, like
many works of God, like Lutherwith his 95 Theses, not
realizing how that would totallyrevolutionize Christianity in
Europe.
What Merritt did was he tookexcerpts from John Wesley, from
(04:17):
John Fletcher and from someother early Methodists, like
Joseph Sutcliffe, and put themtogether in a little guide to
help people achieve Christianperfection, viewed basically as
synonymous with entiresanctification, a second work of
grace.
And that really, I guess, ifyou have to get at the heart of
(04:39):
what the Holiness Movementrepresents, it is a desire for
perfect love, christianperfection, entire
sanctification, a second work ofgrace, distinct from conversion
, following conversion,following initial regeneration.
And so he put together thislittle guide and it was amazing
(05:03):
what happened.
It really unleashed a floodtide of revival across North
America, spanning most of themajor denominations.
There were Congregationalists,like Thomas Upham, there were
Quakers, hannah Widdow Smith,there were Baptists like AD
(05:24):
Earle, but it was primarilycentered in Methodism and these
other people latched on to thisidea of a secondness, a second
experience, and I think it was1836.
Zack Johnson (05:38):
And when you say secondness, it's sort of like
the second baptism.
You mean, yeah, second baptism.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (05:44):
Baptism of the Spirit.
You have water baptism with thefirst work of grace, if you
would, and then you would havespirit baptism.
Became the language that wasused later to describe that.
Now there's a lot of debateamong scholars of the Holiness
movement.
Where did that originate, theHoloness Movement?
(06:05):
Where did that originate?
You could trace it back atleast to John Fletcher, who was
Wesley's heir apparent, hischoice selector replacement to
follow him when he died.
And fortunately for Fletcher orfor Wesley, Fletcher died first
, or for Wesley, fletcher diedfirst.
So his designated successorturned out to leave first.
(06:30):
But Fletcher taught thisequation of spirit baptism.
Many people later identifiedthat specifically with the event
that took place at Pentecost,so that's when the disciples
were entirely sanctified.
Now again, that's highlydebated.
But in 1836, a woman by thename of Phoebe Palmer read the
(06:54):
Christian manual.
Her sister also was influencedby the Christian manual.
I think she actuallyrecommended it to her sister.
So Sarah Langford, phoebePalmer, they were involved in
what was called the Tuesdaymeetings for the promotion of
holiness.
They were sanctified under theinfluence of Merritt's work.
(07:14):
So many people say that thisyear would be the 200th
anniversary of the HolinessRevival.
Going back to the production ofTimothy Merritt's manual.
Going back to the production ofTimothy Merritt's manual, and
under Phoebe Palmer's leadershipshe took over what came to be
(07:38):
known as the periodical calledGuide to Holiness, and under her
leadership it just accomplishedphenomenal things.
It became a best-sellingmagazine.
If you understand how smallAmerica was population-wise,
compared to what it is today, itwas a leading magazine of the
order of some of the leadingsecular ladies' magazines of the
(08:00):
day, and so that's really wherethe.
Holoness Movement kind oforiginated.
And what was the name of themagazine?
It was first, I think, calledthe Guide to Christian
Perfection and then they changedthe name.
Palmer changed the name toGuide to Holoness Christian
Perfection a little bit more ofa mouthful, I suppose.
And Holoness, you know.
(08:20):
From that moment on at least,it became known as the Holoness
Revival.
One of the go-to places to learnmore about it is Melvin
Dieter's book the HolinessRevival of the 19th Century.
Featured this in their studieswould be Timothy L Smith, donald
(08:45):
W Dayton.
David Budde and some of hiscolleagues recently came out
with a book through theUniversity of Pennsylvania no,
penn State University onholiness and Pentecostal
movements intertwined.
Vincent Sonnen did a lot ofstudy of the Holiness movement
as a precursor to Pentecostalism.
(09:07):
But the Holiness movement ismore than a precursor to
Pentecostalism.
It still exists.
Some of its best-knowninstitutional forms would be the
Church of the Nazarene, theWesleyan Church and the
Salvation Army Internationallythe Korean Evangelical Holiness
(09:29):
Church, other indigenous Koreanchurches, the Papua New Guinea
Bible Church.
These would all be expressionsof the Holiness Movement.
Now Dr David Bundy has done agreat job of tracing some of the
Holoness networks thatinfluence people as diverse as
Leo Tolstoy in Russia, andDostoevsky, I think perhaps as
(09:51):
well, and people throughout Asia.
Yuji Nakata in Japan, forinstance, who is known as the
Moody of Japan.
Zack Johnson (10:05):
It's a global, it's made its way everywhere,
right?
And what are some of thedistinctives of the holiness
movement that sort ofdifferentiate it from some of
the other churches, or if you'reable to answer that in a little
bit of a simple way, I don'tknow a ton about the holiness
movement other than some briefencounters with different people
(10:28):
who have had brushes with it.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (10:32):
Well, one of the things that, of course,
is the emphasis on the secondwork.
Now, to be honest, the holinessmovement in many ways is a
child of Methodism.
I think one of the things thatwould distinguish Holiness
people today from their earlierMethodist forebears and I'm not
talking about Methodists now,but earlier Methodist forebears
(10:53):
might have been more of thisemphasis on spirit baptism as
affecting the entiresanctification.
Some scholars would say that inearlier Methodism there was
more of a Christological focus,whereas now there may be more of
a Newman theological focus,more of an emphasis on earlier
Christ as the sanctifier andthen later more of the Holy
(11:17):
Spirit's role.
In that, as far asdistinguishing it from other
traditions in other ways, theHoliness Movement has, I would
say, its flexibility.
I mean it really shows up inplaces that people wouldn't
necessarily expect.
King Shai Kachek's wife, I think, was a devout reader of Lenny
(11:43):
Calvin's Streams in the Desert.
Oswald Chambers was anotherbest-selling devotional writer
associated with the HolinessMovement, and so it's
interesting how different peoplecan latch on to things that are
gifts from the HolinessMovement, and a lot of times I
don't think people even realizewhere it's coming from.
I don't think people evenrealize where it's coming from
(12:05):
Some of the other things thatdistinguish some elements of the
holiness movement have been acommitment to carefulness in
lifestyle, particularly when itcomes to dress, to entertainment
, to observance of Sunday as theLord's Day, to carefulness in
life relationships that you knowsome circles in the homeless
(12:31):
movement have a very strongemphasis against divorce and
remarriage, for instance.
Zack Johnson (12:37):
So like yeah, that makes a lot of sense and then
within your scope of work, whathave you written about and what
have your writings explored, andwhat are some of your research
interests?
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (12:52):
Well, I will to give credit where
credit's due.
A lot of my work is built on,directly on, the work of William
Cosley.
He is the senior editor of theHistorical Dictionary of the
Holiness Movement that youmentioned earlier, which is
scheduled to be released nextmonth Congratulations.
The third edition, I should sayhe edited the first two
(13:15):
editions as well, and also I'vebeen strongly influenced by
David Bundy, whom I've mentioned, and a lot of what they looked
at and I have followed in theirwake is the radical holiness
networks.
So sometimes the holinessmovement can be viewed as a
(13:39):
couple of different constructs,one of them being more of the
methodist holiness movement, ifyou would, those that stayed
within the confines of MethodistEpiscopal or Methodist
Episcopal South, thosedenominations, those
affiliations and some that mayhave left Methodism but still
were very Methodist in theirecclesiology and their way of
(14:01):
doing things.
Still like the Free MethodistChurch, even the Westland
Methodist Connection to anextent, though it was
connectional they still werevery much Methodist.
But there were other peoplethat had different
ecclesiologies, that haddifferent agendas.
They believed in entiresanctification as a second
(14:22):
definite work of grace, but theywere not committed to having
bishops, committed to havingbishops.
So you would have groups likethe Church of God Anderson, the
Church of God Holiness, thatwould have different
ecclesiologies, more of acongregational focus, and then
you would have other people thatwould stay in, say, the Baptist
(14:42):
fellowship they were already apart of or others, but they
believed in entiresanctification, sometimes even
using different terminology likehigher life.
And so the radical holinessmovement refers to the
development of Wesleyan holinessideas in groups and contexts
that were other than Methodistduring the 19th and 20th
(15:03):
centuries, including someMethodist churches.
That are groups that would takesome ideas that were novel for
Methodists, for instancepremillennialism.
And the genius of radicalholiness is its ability to
nurture the doctrine of entiresanctification in non-Wesleyan
(15:24):
context.
And, as you mentioned earlier,it's become a global development
.
But there's also another use ofthe term radical holiness that I
have dealt with and thatappears in the mid-20th century
in a term called sweet radicalholiness, sweet radical, sweet
radical holiness.
(15:45):
Yeah, and part of that wasmid-20th century.
There were some Holonians,people that said we're changing,
we're adopting the largerculture, some of our distinctive
, we believe biblical societalnorms.
(16:05):
They're changing, lines arebeing blurred and compromise is
taking place and worldlinessbecame one of the words that
were used to describe thiscultural accommodation, and so
there were people in some of theolder Holiness denominations,
like Wesleyan Methodists, freeMethodists, church of the
(16:26):
Nazarenene, that dissented fromthis accommodation to popular
culture, and men like H RobFrench, he Schmuel, spencer
Johnson and some of theirfollowers adopted the moniker
Sweet Radical Holiness.
They helped establish newdenominations and other
organizations like the BibleMissionary Church, florida
(16:49):
Evangelistic Association, andeventually those groups
coalesced around a fellowship, aconvention called the
Interchurch Holiness Convention.
It was started by French andSmule, but over time,
interestingly enough, that labelwas basically laid aside for
(17:10):
the different label,conservative holiness movement.
Zack Johnson (17:12):
The sweet, the sweet.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (17:14):
Radical holiness became the conservative
holiness movement, althoughthere were some who protested
against that change against thatdevelopment and against what
they saw as compromises amongsome of the IHC people, people
like WL King, editor of theVoice of the Nazarene, who
maintained till his death thathe was a radical.
(17:36):
I think he said something likethis radical and everything,
neutral and nothing.
It's a little bit different, sothere's yeah, so there's
actually two uses of radicalholiness.
One is those earlier networks.
There's actually two uses ofradical holiness.
One is those earlier networksprior to the beginnings of
Pentecostalism and in some casesthat helped to fuel
Pentecostalism in some placesaround the world.
(17:58):
And then this more recent term,sweet radical holiness that
basically now most people woulduse the term conservative
holiness movement.
But I've studied both of thoseand the second one more in the
first book I did, which was anedited version of my master's
thesis, radical Righteousness.
(18:20):
The other one, more recently,in a study of the beginnings of
God's Bible school, which is oneof the older holiness
institutions identified with.
Concerned Holiness Movementbegan in 1900, and that one's
entitled when the Fire Fell.
But God's Bible School is verymuch a part of this.
It was one of the nodes, if youwould, in the radical holiness
(18:41):
networks.
Zack Johnson (18:45):
Got it.
And so, with all of yourresearch and the books that
you've written, what are some ofthe things that you're
passionate about sharing withI'll even say college-age
students, as they sort of aretrying to make big decisions
(19:05):
about their life.
I'll even say what church tobelong to, what vocation to take
.
Are there any lessons from yourresearch that you have found
that you have then becomepassionate enough to try to
share with other people or, be alittle persuasive, with?
I know that's a big question,but Well, one of the things.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (19:26):
As we look at history, I try to look
at what are some of thepractical takeaways and one of
the things I found in instudying the sweet radical
hollandist movement with which Iidentify is.
I think it is helpful to look atour Methodist forebears and to
(19:48):
take a long view, a telescopicview if you would, of history
and see how some of the thingsthat we may do that may look the
same may have differentmotivations than what they
originated with.
So, for example, in ourbehavioral standards, say dress,
(20:09):
or even entertainment, there'sa strong emphasis today, and I
think really since the modernistfundamentalist controversy,
there's been a strong emphasison separation from the world,
which of course is a biblicalconcept.
But as I looked back further,say back to the days of Phoebe,
Ponger, could you explain thatcontroversy in 30 seconds that
(20:32):
you?
just talked about.
I know that's hard.
Zack Johnson (20:35):
Wow.
In 30 seconds A lot of peoplewould be familiar with that.
Okay.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (20:39):
Well, things came to a head in the
1920s.
Many people look at the Scopestrial, as you know, over
evolution in the state ofTennessee.
It's kind of the nexus thatbrought this out to public
attention.
But for a long time amongevangelicals there had been
protest about the teachings thatwere often associated with
(21:04):
German higher education literarycriticism being applied to
scripture, and a lot of peoplethat protested identified
themselves as fundamentalists.
They said wait a minute.
There are fundamental beliefsthat you have to adhere to to be
a real Christian, and so someof those things would be belief
(21:29):
in the virgin birth of Christand belief in the authority of
God's work.
Often the term that would beused would be infallibility,
earlier and later inerrancy.
And then there were other ideasthat became very strongly
associated.
It may not have been one of theprimary fundamentals, but they
(21:52):
became closely associated withit, for example, the
pre-millennial return of Christ.
This had a strong influence ona lot of Holiness folk, both of
them being kind of populistmovements.
Zack Johnson (22:03):
Okay, sorry, I hijacked you, so that was the
controversy, but then you weretalking about separation you.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (22:09):
So that was the controversy.
But then you were talking aboutseparation.
One of the thingsfundamentalists emphasized was
you have to be separate fromthings that undermine the
fundamentals, and there weredifferent degrees of separation.
So some people would say, well,you can't be friends with a
modernist.
Other people would say, well,you can't be friends with a
friend of a modernist, and otherpeople would say you can't be
(22:31):
friends with a friend of afriend of a modernist.
So but the idea and I use theterm friend loosely yes, you can
be friends, but you couldn'tfellowship as a brother in
Christ if they denied the virginbirth, for instance.
But some people, if you don'tsee prophecy the way I do,
(22:51):
that's grounds to breakfellowship, and so there's
strong emphasis on separationand of course there's an element
of that in, say, the way Idress.
So some people would say theprimary thing I need to think
about as a Bible-believingChristian is I don't want to be
like the world.
Now, obviously there's somepitfalls apparent with that.
(23:17):
What if a biblical way ofexpressing, let's say, a
principle of modesty?
What if that becomes popular inthe modern culture?
Then I have to go against it.
So, looking back further to saythe days of Phoebe Palmer, I
found another emphasis thatseemed to be the primary
(23:39):
rationale, if you would, for acareful living.
Not that they didn't believe inseparation, but there was
something that seemed to besomewhat deep and that was
submission submission to god'swill.
So, in other words, it doesn'treally matter what the world's
doing, as long as I'm doing whatgod wants me to well, that
seems to me to be a strongermotivation, right.
(24:01):
But then if we go back evenfurther than palmer, to the days
of wes, I found, I think,perhaps an even deeper
motivation or rationale forbehavioral standards, and that
is stewardship, and Wesleystrongly emphasized whatever we
do, ultimately we're accountableto God.
Zack Johnson (24:26):
And again.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (24:27):
If I am a good steward, that means I will
be submissive to God's will,but I have this sense of
accountability in every decision.
Zack Johnson (24:36):
I make so.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (24:37):
Wesley goes to the door.
One day there was a poor maidthat had made a delivery, I
suppose, and he looked and sawshe had a very thin garment on
and he said is this all you have?
And yes, sir, it's all I have.
And he reached in his pocket togive her some money and
realized he had just spent it ona picture to decorate his
(24:59):
apartment.
And he said, oh, here is theblood of this poor creature is
on my hands.
I couldn't afford it.
I should have saved the moneyand given it to her.
And that was really his primarymotivation for the strict
standards that he enjoyed uponMethodist that moment in his
life was.
Well, I know that attitude, andso he said don't ever let this
(25:22):
word come out of your mouth Ican afford this or that.
Now he said your duty take careof your basic needs, your
family's basic needs, and then,beyond that, you're to bless
others, You're to be a stewardto others, you are to take the
things that God entrusts intoyour hands and to give those to
(25:43):
help others.
Well, along that line, when youmove to the radical holiness
networks, Along that line, whenyou move to the radical holiness
networks exemplified by MartinWelsnapp, who started the school
in Cincinnati called God'sBible School, he emphasized a
radical stewardship as well, Tothe point that when he started
(26:04):
his school, he deeded theproperty to God.
Now, the court in Ohio had ahard time dealing with that
after he died.
How?
Zack Johnson (26:13):
can God own property?
It's a hard question.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (26:15):
At least in Ohio that was a challenge,
but the idea is that God is theproprietor over everything.
I'm only a steward and to methat's something that I want to
take personally and I like toshare with young people.
Zack Johnson (26:29):
It's the value of stewardship.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (26:30):
The stewardship and that being a
guiding principle in my life.
Now, the uncanny thing for alot of people is good
stewardship for one person maywork out very differently than
good stewardship for someoneelse and in a world where we
like to have everything cut anddried and you can do this and
(26:52):
you can't do that, sometimesgood stewardship will dictate
that one person makes aninvestment that another person
cannot make, or that they dosomething that another person
cannot do and that actually hasa certain appeal to rugged
American individualism, and sowe have to be careful because,
(27:16):
on the other hand, it can becomea slippery slope where we can
say, well, my conscience isn'ttroubled about that.
But if we live with this carefulawareness that Wesley enjoined
of remembering, we areaccountable to the judge, I
think it's a very deepmotivation for careful biblical
living.
Wesley enjoined of remembering,we are accountable to the judge
.
Zack Johnson (27:36):
I think it's a very deep motivation for careful
biblical living, I mean.
And then how do you recommendpeople develop the stewardship
that we see in Wesley?
I pass around a list ofquestions that Wesley sort of
asks himself on a regular basis,and I think I find that helpful
to look at someone like Wesleyand see, hey, what are they
(27:59):
asking themselves and holdingthemselves against regularly?
Are there any other ways thatyou've found to?
I'll even use the word disciple, disciple to disciple people
towards stewardship, includingyourself.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (28:11):
Well, I think one of the ways that we
can encourage this kind ofstewardship mentality is is by
developing some relationships,friendships similar to what
Wesley developed and encouragedin the class meetings and band
meetings, where some of thosequestions are not just dealt
(28:33):
with privately but some of thosequestions are brought up.
You know, there may be a blindspot in my life that I'm not
being a good steward and don'teven realize it, my life, that
I'm not being a good steward anddon't even realize it, and
someone else a faithful brotheror sister can say what about
this?
Now I think we have to becareful in those contexts that
(28:58):
we don't try to impose ourconscience on someone else.
Right, our conscience onsomeone else.
But I think even having thequestions voiced at times can
help us.
Maybe there's something that'snot a convenient question to
deal with and our brother saysyeah, but you need to think
about it.
Zack Johnson (29:21):
Yeah, one of the practices the church I attend
used to put into place a littlebit more regularly was asking
the question what mars the imageof Christ in me?
Having somebody else answerthat question towards you?
It's actually a practice that alot of people feel comfortable
taking on, and it was madefamous by the Moravians Right.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (29:37):
This idea of and, of course, wesley was
deeply indebted to the Moravians.
Right Wesley was deeplyindebted to the Moravians.
One of the questions thatstrikes me is, especially in our
age of social media andimpression management and
basically every person becomestheir own advertiser is do I try
(29:59):
to make myself appear betterthan I really am?
Zack Johnson (30:04):
That question is on the list of questions Right
right.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (30:08):
And I think sometimes if there's
someone who has an intimateacquaintance with us, they may
be more readily answer thatquestion than we may.
I remember both of thesegentlemen are back in Holland's
history.
Both of them are deceased and Idon't think there's any way
(30:31):
that anyone would identify thembecause of that fact.
But I was interviewing onegentleman about another historic
figure whom he had known and Iasked him about his leadership,
his stewardship, whatever, orhis perspective on this person
(30:55):
and he said well, he said thisgentleman had a higher opinion
of his spirituality than anyoneelse did Right, of his
spirituality than anyone elsedid Right, and that man seemed
like the kind of person thatcould have benefited from
someone asking or dealing withthis question.
Am I putting out a perceptionor, in his case, has he deluded
(31:18):
himself until he feels like thathe is much better a person than
other people perceive him to beRight?
Zack Johnson (31:28):
Yeah, I actually think that frequent questioning
of our own lives with people wetrust is one of the heartbeats
of how to stay strong in thefaith.
Yes, and I think that's kind ofwhat the church is designed for
.
And we, we we think a lot aboutthat at our college on how do
(31:51):
we get our students to develop ahabit on a at least a weekly
basis to have somebody checkingin on you and then, over time,
developing a framework for howto actually structure that time,
because if not, you canunintentionally drift away.
But speaking about stewardship,I know you're actually giving a
talk here at Sadler in about 15minutes and so I know whoever's
(32:16):
listening can watch that talkas well.
Are there any other thingsyou'd like to share in more of a
casual environment, about someof your passions, your burdens,
the resources you love toconsume, anything along those
lines?
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (32:32):
Well, I do love to read, I'm sure it
doesn't surprise me.
And so one of my hobbies isvisiting bookstores and
especially looking for holinessbooks.
What's interesting is a lot ofthose are little pamphlets,
little booklets, and some ofthem are jewels.
(32:53):
I'll give an example of onethat I particularly am fond of
collecting.
He was and is consideredeccentric.
His name was WB Godbey was andis considered eccentric.
His name was WB Godby, and oneof my particular interests is
he's from Pulaski County,kentucky, where I guess that's
as close to home place as I have.
That's where my parents live.
Zack Johnson (33:13):
In Kentucky.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (33:15):
Yes in Kentucky South Central Kentucky
and Godby was a prolific writer.
He wrote a set of commentarieson the New Testament, did a
translation of the New Testamentwhich may seem a little
counterintuitive to those thatare familiar with elements of
(33:37):
the conservative Arlenistmovement that would emphasize
use of the King James Bible.
Well, he used the Greek, fromTischendorf, as he would say,
and he thought it waschronologically significant that
Tischendorf discovered what hewould call the Sinaitic
Manuscript the year that heexperienced the entire
(33:59):
sanctification education uh, butuh, a bit of eccentric, as I
said, he he was known to uh haveuh unique habits.
Uh, he basically would put hiswardrobe on when he would start
out on a trip and uh, one of hisperegrinations, as he would
(34:20):
call it, he, he traveled aroundand basically when the outer
layer got sold he would justremove that and move on.
But he was very talentedlinguistically, somewhat
creative, and created his ownwords when he didn't know a good
(34:40):
English word that would sufficeand was very instrumental in
keeping large swaths of theHoliness movement from embracing
Pentecostalism.
So I love to look for Godlythings Is there a particular
pamphlet.
Well, he wrote over 200.
So for the audience, if they'regoing to Google one, Well, if
(35:02):
you can find it actually, I sawone not too long ago available
for about $20, which I wasreally surprised.
But his very first one was onbaptism Okay, mode and design.
So if somebody If it's stillavailable, they could find a
little treasure there.
But he wrote a lot aboutprophecy and he had some unique
views, but basically he was apremillennialist, got it,
(35:33):
prophecy, and he had some uniqueviews, but basically he was a
premillennialist, got it and uh,so, uh, if you're wanting
something really creative thoughinfantile justification, okay,
uh is another one that he did.
But uh, they said when he died,uh, in cincinnati, ohio, the
room where he died, which was acollege dormitory room, that it
was about two weeks after theyremoved his body before people
could enter the room.
It was so saturated with thepresence of God.
Zack Johnson (35:55):
Really.
Yeah, I didn't know if it wasgoing to be disorganized in the
presence of God, I mean he'sreally an amazing figure.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (36:01):
their presence of God, I mean.
He's really an amazing figure.
He was at a train stop once inmid-Missouri and some people met
him.
There had no idea who he was atfirst.
They described how disheveledhe looked and he had a bunch of
booklets bundled together withtwine hanging over his shoulder
(36:22):
and they said something likethis when they found out who it
was, they said one wonders ifJesus returned to the earth, if
anyone would recognize him.
Zack Johnson (36:32):
Well, yeah, thanks , sir, I'll actually look him up
there.
And then in the last fiveminutes you actually were able
to share at the Sadler Tea Timetoday.
We share pearls, right, and Ialways like to ask this in a
podcast Are there any pearls ofwisdom that you really like to
have reflected on and like toleave with people?
(36:54):
I don't know if you'll resharethe one that you shared this
morning or have any other onesup your sleeve.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (37:01):
Well, I think I could briefly share at
least one of them, and what Iwas talking about was evaluating
language and symbolism that'sbeen used in history, but also
how that relates to study ofGod's word, studying the Bible,
(37:25):
and the danger that I mentionedas my first pearl.
I guess you could say they werecautionary notes, but sometimes
wisdom does come out as anegative, as a caution, and that
was the danger of eisegesis.
And I heard a story I believethe figure was Eudora Welty, a
(37:49):
famous American writer thatthere was a conference of
literary criticism of her workand there was a brilliant young
scholar who waxed his eloquenceand was showing his erudition
and focused on a single lightbulb in a stark room as a
(38:12):
symbolism of the loneliness ofmodernity, of modern life.
And all of a sudden, as he madethis brilliant point, a little
elderly woman jumped up in theback of the room and said that's
brilliant, I never thought ofthat and it would have been
(38:35):
great praise, except it was theauthor, it was Eudora Welty, and
he read into her work what shenever intended.
And yeah, she said I neverthought of that.
And I'm afraid sometimes thatpeople read scripture or read
(38:56):
history and they find thingsthat the author never intended.
And so I want to be careful asa historian, as a Christian, to
be faithful to authorial intent.
Mine as a historian, as myfriend Bill would say, is not
(39:17):
necessarily to agree with thesources, but it's to understand
them Right and then hopefullyfaithfully share that
understanding with others.
Zack Johnson (39:27):
Right, yeah, that's really good.
I preached a few sermons overthe last few years and somebody
came up to me and said your jobis to put a microphone to the
scripture and try to tune outall the noise, but it's very.
That's actually a dauntingchallenge to read the scriptures
and then to speak about themwithout adding on something
(39:50):
beyond the intent.
Well, out of just a caution toget you to your next affair here
, I just want to say thank youso much for joining me and if
anybody listening is interestedin sort of a rigorous academic
experience with discipleship inBoston, one of the most historic
cities in the US, I might add,Sadler College is a great place
(40:13):
to consider Anything else youwant to add.
I thank you for the privilege.
Yeah, absolutely, it's been anhonor and we'll get you to your
talk and thank you for joiningme.
Thank you.
it is october 15th , 2024 and I'm here with wallace
thornton jr.
Is that right?
All right, I just met your sonnamed will and it's named after
you, but you run by wallace yeswell, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna start by just readinga bio about you and then we'll
jump right in and you feel freeto correct me, or I.
(00:26):
I think this was written by your, by you, so it's it'll be hard
to go wrong.
So wallace thornton jr is aminister, an independent scholar
, who holds degrees from theuniversity of kentucky, god's
bible school and college andcincinnati bible seminary.
His ministry of over 30 yearshas included teaching church
history at three colleges,speaking at numerous conferences
(00:47):
and preaching in over a dozendenominations, including a
10-year pastorate and, when theFire Fell, articles in the
(01:08):
Wesleyan Theological Journal andWorld Christianity and the
Fourfold Gospel andcontributions to counterpoint
dialogue with jury on theholiness movement.
He's also served as associateeditor of the third edition of
the Historical Dictionary of theHoliness Movement.
So I feel like the word that'srepeated most in your bio is
holiness movement.
So I can't wait to get intothat with you and I just want to
(01:28):
say so.
I made connections with youthrough David Eicher, who
basically heard when you werecoming to Boston and said you
have to get him in here.
You've had a profound impact onhis life, so thank you so much
for joining me.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (01:39):
Well, it's a privilege to be here and
it was a privilege to have DavidEichler as a student several
years ago More years than I'dlike to think about but he was a
wonderful representation of theAnabaptist tradition in a
Holiness Movement setting and wedeveloped a great friendship.
Zack Johnson (02:00):
Glad to be here and we developed a great
friendship.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (02:02):
Glad to be here.
Zack Johnson (02:03):
Well, yeah, so I thought I would just ask you is
there anything that you think Ishould know about you that
didn't come out in your bio?
I know?
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (02:19):
we've been chatting or that might be
relevant to anybody who justheard your bio and might be
listening to what you're aboutto say.
Well, it might seem from thebio that I'm singularly focused
on studying the Holonessmovement and I'm very dedicated
to that.
But I do have wide interest andactually, as I mentioned before
the podcast, I began college asa chemistry major at Berea
College in Kentucky which,interestingly enough, I
(02:39):
discovered after I was a studentthere discovered after I was a
student there had rootsconnected with the Holiness
Movement through Charles Finneyin Oberlin, and John G Fee, who
started Berea, was actually astudent at Oberlin and actually
wrote a book on Christianperfection.
So it has amazed me how far theHoliness Movement has had
(03:06):
connections, especially throughmovements like abolition and
temperance.
Zack Johnson (03:14):
Well, why don't we just start with what the
Holiness Movement is as a verybasic way to start, and then we
can talk about what you'vewritten and what you're
passionate about?
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (03:30):
What is the Holiness Movement to
somebody who's never heard aboutit?
All right, well, it'sinteresting that you were asked,
because roughly 200 years agouh, several scholars would say
is when the holiness movementbegan with the publication of a
little book called the ChristianManual by Timothy Merritt.
Now, timothy Merritt was aMethodist minister.
I don't think he realized atthe time how revolutionary the
(03:56):
little booklet that he wasputting together would be, like
many works of God, like Lutherwith his 95 Theses, not
realizing how that would totallyrevolutionize Christianity in
Europe.
What Merritt did was he tookexcerpts from John Wesley, from
(04:17):
John Fletcher and from someother early Methodists, like
Joseph Sutcliffe, and put themtogether in a little guide to
help people achieve Christianperfection, viewed basically as
synonymous with entiresanctification, a second work of
grace.
And that really, I guess, ifyou have to get at the heart of
(04:39):
what the Holiness Movementrepresents, it is a desire for
perfect love, christianperfection, entire
sanctification, a second work ofgrace, distinct from conversion
, following conversion,following initial regeneration.
And so he put together thislittle guide and it was amazing
(05:03):
what happened.
It really unleashed a floodtide of revival across North
America, spanning most of themajor denominations.
There were Congregationalists,like Thomas Upham, there were
Quakers, hannah Widdow Smith,there were Baptists like AD
(05:24):
Earle, but it was primarilycentered in Methodism and these
other people latched on to thisidea of a secondness, a second
experience, and I think it was1836.
Zack Johnson (05:38):
And when you say secondness, it's sort of like
the second baptism.
You mean, yeah, second baptism.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (05:44):
Baptism of the Spirit.
You have water baptism with thefirst work of grace, if you
would, and then you would havespirit baptism.
Became the language that wasused later to describe that.
Now there's a lot of debateamong scholars of the Holiness
movement.
Where did that originate, theHoloness Movement?
(06:05):
Where did that originate?
You could trace it back atleast to John Fletcher, who was
Wesley's heir apparent, hischoice selector replacement to
follow him when he died.
And fortunately for Fletcher orfor Wesley, Fletcher died first
, or for Wesley, fletcher diedfirst.
So his designated successorturned out to leave first.
(06:30):
But Fletcher taught thisequation of spirit baptism.
Many people later identifiedthat specifically with the event
that took place at Pentecost,so that's when the disciples
were entirely sanctified.
Now again, that's highlydebated.
But in 1836, a woman by thename of Phoebe Palmer read the
(06:54):
Christian manual.
Her sister also was influencedby the Christian manual.
I think she actuallyrecommended it to her sister.
So Sarah Langford, phoebePalmer, they were involved in
what was called the Tuesdaymeetings for the promotion of
holiness.
They were sanctified under theinfluence of Merritt's work.
(07:14):
So many people say that thisyear would be the 200th
anniversary of the HolinessRevival.
Going back to the production ofTimothy Merritt's manual.
Going back to the production ofTimothy Merritt's manual, and
under Phoebe Palmer's leadershipshe took over what came to be
(07:38):
known as the periodical calledGuide to Holiness, and under her
leadership it just accomplishedphenomenal things.
It became a best-sellingmagazine.
If you understand how smallAmerica was population-wise,
compared to what it is today, itwas a leading magazine of the
order of some of the leadingsecular ladies' magazines of the
(08:00):
day, and so that's really wherethe.
Holoness Movement kind oforiginated.
And what was the name of themagazine?
It was first, I think, calledthe Guide to Christian
Perfection and then they changedthe name.
Palmer changed the name toGuide to Holoness Christian
Perfection a little bit more ofa mouthful, I suppose.
And Holoness, you know.
(08:20):
From that moment on at least,it became known as the Holoness
Revival.
One of the go-to places to learnmore about it is Melvin
Dieter's book the HolinessRevival of the 19th Century.
Featured this in their studieswould be Timothy L Smith, donald
(08:45):
W Dayton.
David Budde and some of hiscolleagues recently came out
with a book through theUniversity of Pennsylvania no,
penn State University onholiness and Pentecostal
movements intertwined.
Vincent Sonnen did a lot ofstudy of the Holiness movement
as a precursor to Pentecostalism.
(09:07):
But the Holiness movement ismore than a precursor to
Pentecostalism.
It still exists.
Some of its best-knowninstitutional forms would be the
Church of the Nazarene, theWesleyan Church and the
Salvation Army Internationallythe Korean Evangelical Holiness
(09:29):
Church, other indigenous Koreanchurches, the Papua New Guinea
Bible Church.
These would all be expressionsof the Holiness Movement.
Now Dr David Bundy has done agreat job of tracing some of the
Holoness networks thatinfluence people as diverse as
Leo Tolstoy in Russia, andDostoevsky, I think perhaps as
(09:51):
well, and people throughout Asia.
Yuji Nakata in Japan, forinstance, who is known as the
Moody of Japan.
Zack Johnson (10:05):
It's a global, it's made its way everywhere,
right?
And what are some of thedistinctives of the holiness
movement that sort ofdifferentiate it from some of
the other churches, or if you'reable to answer that in a little
bit of a simple way, I don'tknow a ton about the holiness
movement other than some briefencounters with different people
(10:28):
who have had brushes with it.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (10:32):
Well, one of the things that, of course,
is the emphasis on the secondwork.
Now, to be honest, the holinessmovement in many ways is a
child of Methodism.
I think one of the things thatwould distinguish Holiness
people today from their earlierMethodist forebears and I'm not
talking about Methodists now,but earlier Methodist forebears
(10:53):
might have been more of thisemphasis on spirit baptism as
affecting the entiresanctification.
Some scholars would say that inearlier Methodism there was
more of a Christological focus,whereas now there may be more of
a Newman theological focus,more of an emphasis on earlier
Christ as the sanctifier andthen later more of the Holy
(11:17):
Spirit's role.
In that, as far asdistinguishing it from other
traditions in other ways, theHoliness Movement has, I would
say, its flexibility.
I mean it really shows up inplaces that people wouldn't
necessarily expect.
King Shai Kachek's wife, I think, was a devout reader of Lenny
(11:43):
Calvin's Streams in the Desert.
Oswald Chambers was anotherbest-selling devotional writer
associated with the HolinessMovement, and so it's
interesting how different peoplecan latch on to things that are
gifts from the HolinessMovement, and a lot of times I
don't think people even realizewhere it's coming from.
I don't think people evenrealize where it's coming from
(12:05):
Some of the other things thatdistinguish some elements of the
holiness movement have been acommitment to carefulness in
lifestyle, particularly when itcomes to dress, to entertainment
, to observance of Sunday as theLord's Day, to carefulness in
life relationships that you knowsome circles in the homeless
(12:31):
movement have a very strongemphasis against divorce and
remarriage, for instance.
Zack Johnson (12:37):
So like yeah, that makes a lot of sense and then
within your scope of work, whathave you written about and what
have your writings explored, andwhat are some of your research
interests?
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (12:52):
Well, I will to give credit where
credit's due.
A lot of my work is built on,directly on, the work of William
Cosley.
He is the senior editor of theHistorical Dictionary of the
Holiness Movement that youmentioned earlier, which is
scheduled to be released nextmonth Congratulations.
The third edition, I should sayhe edited the first two
(13:15):
editions as well, and also I'vebeen strongly influenced by
David Bundy, whom I've mentioned, and a lot of what they looked
at and I have followed in theirwake is the radical holiness
networks.
So sometimes the holinessmovement can be viewed as a
(13:39):
couple of different constructs,one of them being more of the
methodist holiness movement, ifyou would, those that stayed
within the confines of MethodistEpiscopal or Methodist
Episcopal South, thosedenominations, those
affiliations and some that mayhave left Methodism but still
were very Methodist in theirecclesiology and their way of
(14:01):
doing things.
Still like the Free MethodistChurch, even the Westland
Methodist Connection to anextent, though it was
connectional they still werevery much Methodist.
But there were other peoplethat had different
ecclesiologies, that haddifferent agendas.
They believed in entiresanctification as a second
(14:22):
definite work of grace, but theywere not committed to having
bishops, committed to havingbishops.
So you would have groups likethe Church of God Anderson, the
Church of God Holiness, thatwould have different
ecclesiologies, more of acongregational focus, and then
you would have other people thatwould stay in, say, the Baptist
(14:42):
fellowship they were already apart of or others, but they
believed in entiresanctification, sometimes even
using different terminology likehigher life.
And so the radical holinessmovement refers to the
development of Wesleyan holinessideas in groups and contexts
that were other than Methodistduring the 19th and 20th
(15:03):
centuries, including someMethodist churches.
That are groups that would takesome ideas that were novel for
Methodists, for instancepremillennialism.
And the genius of radicalholiness is its ability to
nurture the doctrine of entiresanctification in non-Wesleyan
(15:24):
context.
And, as you mentioned earlier,it's become a global development
.
But there's also another use ofthe term radical holiness that I
have dealt with and thatappears in the mid-20th century
in a term called sweet radicalholiness, sweet radical, sweet
radical holiness.
(15:45):
Yeah, and part of that wasmid-20th century.
There were some Holonians,people that said we're changing,
we're adopting the largerculture, some of our distinctive
, we believe biblical societalnorms.
(16:05):
They're changing, lines arebeing blurred and compromise is
taking place and worldlinessbecame one of the words that
were used to describe thiscultural accommodation, and so
there were people in some of theolder Holiness denominations,
like Wesleyan Methodists, freeMethodists, church of the
(16:26):
Nazarenene, that dissented fromthis accommodation to popular
culture, and men like H RobFrench, he Schmuel, spencer
Johnson and some of theirfollowers adopted the moniker
Sweet Radical Holiness.
They helped establish newdenominations and other
organizations like the BibleMissionary Church, florida
(16:49):
Evangelistic Association, andeventually those groups
coalesced around a fellowship, aconvention called the
Interchurch Holiness Convention.
It was started by French andSmule, but over time,
interestingly enough, that labelwas basically laid aside for
(17:10):
the different label,conservative holiness movement.
Zack Johnson (17:12):
The sweet, the sweet.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (17:14):
Radical holiness became the conservative
holiness movement, althoughthere were some who protested
against that change against thatdevelopment and against what
they saw as compromises amongsome of the IHC people, people
like WL King, editor of theVoice of the Nazarene, who
maintained till his death thathe was a radical.
(17:36):
I think he said something likethis radical and everything,
neutral and nothing.
It's a little bit different, sothere's yeah, so there's
actually two uses of radicalholiness.
One is those earlier networks.
There's actually two uses ofradical holiness.
One is those earlier networksprior to the beginnings of
Pentecostalism and in some casesthat helped to fuel
Pentecostalism in some placesaround the world.
(17:58):
And then this more recent term,sweet radical holiness that
basically now most people woulduse the term conservative
holiness movement.
But I've studied both of thoseand the second one more in the
first book I did, which was anedited version of my master's
thesis, radical Righteousness.
(18:20):
The other one, more recently,in a study of the beginnings of
God's Bible school, which is oneof the older holiness
institutions identified with.
Concerned Holiness Movementbegan in 1900, and that one's
entitled when the Fire Fell.
But God's Bible School is verymuch a part of this.
It was one of the nodes, if youwould, in the radical holiness
(18:41):
networks.
Zack Johnson (18:45):
Got it.
And so, with all of yourresearch and the books that
you've written, what are some ofthe things that you're
passionate about sharing withI'll even say college-age
students, as they sort of aretrying to make big decisions
(19:05):
about their life.
I'll even say what church tobelong to, what vocation to take
.
Are there any lessons from yourresearch that you have found
that you have then becomepassionate enough to try to
share with other people or, be alittle persuasive, with?
I know that's a big question,but Well, one of the things.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (19:26):
As we look at history, I try to look
at what are some of thepractical takeaways and one of
the things I found in instudying the sweet radical
hollandist movement with which Iidentify is.
I think it is helpful to look atour Methodist forebears and to
(19:48):
take a long view, a telescopicview if you would, of history
and see how some of the thingsthat we may do that may look the
same may have differentmotivations than what they
originated with.
So, for example, in ourbehavioral standards, say dress,
(20:09):
or even entertainment, there'sa strong emphasis today, and I
think really since the modernistfundamentalist controversy,
there's been a strong emphasison separation from the world,
which of course is a biblicalconcept.
But as I looked back further,say back to the days of Phoebe,
Ponger, could you explain thatcontroversy in 30 seconds that
(20:32):
you?
just talked about.
I know that's hard.
Zack Johnson (20:35):
Wow.
In 30 seconds A lot of peoplewould be familiar with that.
Okay.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (20:39):
Well, things came to a head in the
1920s.
Many people look at the Scopestrial, as you know, over
evolution in the state ofTennessee.
It's kind of the nexus thatbrought this out to public
attention.
But for a long time amongevangelicals there had been
protest about the teachings thatwere often associated with
(21:04):
German higher education literarycriticism being applied to
scripture, and a lot of peoplethat protested identified
themselves as fundamentalists.
They said wait a minute.
There are fundamental beliefsthat you have to adhere to to be
a real Christian, and so someof those things would be belief
(21:29):
in the virgin birth of Christand belief in the authority of
God's work.
Often the term that would beused would be infallibility,
earlier and later inerrancy.
And then there were other ideasthat became very strongly
associated.
It may not have been one of theprimary fundamentals, but they
(21:52):
became closely associated withit, for example, the
pre-millennial return of Christ.
This had a strong influence ona lot of Holiness folk, both of
them being kind of populistmovements.
Zack Johnson (22:03):
Okay, sorry, I hijacked you, so that was the
controversy, but then you weretalking about separation you.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (22:09):
So that was the controversy.
But then you were talking aboutseparation.
One of the thingsfundamentalists emphasized was
you have to be separate fromthings that undermine the
fundamentals, and there weredifferent degrees of separation.
So some people would say, well,you can't be friends with a
modernist.
Other people would say, well,you can't be friends with a
friend of a modernist, and otherpeople would say you can't be
(22:31):
friends with a friend of afriend of a modernist.
So but the idea and I use theterm friend loosely yes, you can
be friends, but you couldn'tfellowship as a brother in
Christ if they denied the virginbirth, for instance.
But some people, if you don'tsee prophecy the way I do,
(22:51):
that's grounds to breakfellowship, and so there's
strong emphasis on separationand of course there's an element
of that in, say, the way Idress.
So some people would say theprimary thing I need to think
about as a Bible-believingChristian is I don't want to be
like the world.
Now, obviously there's somepitfalls apparent with that.
(23:17):
What if a biblical way ofexpressing, let's say, a
principle of modesty?
What if that becomes popular inthe modern culture?
Then I have to go against it.
So, looking back further to saythe days of Phoebe Palmer, I
found another emphasis thatseemed to be the primary
(23:39):
rationale, if you would, for acareful living.
Not that they didn't believe inseparation, but there was
something that seemed to besomewhat deep and that was
submission submission to god'swill.
So, in other words, it doesn'treally matter what the world's
doing, as long as I'm doing whatgod wants me to well, that
seems to me to be a strongermotivation, right.
(24:01):
But then if we go back evenfurther than palmer, to the days
of wes, I found, I think,perhaps an even deeper
motivation or rationale forbehavioral standards, and that
is stewardship, and Wesleystrongly emphasized whatever we
do, ultimately we're accountableto God.
Zack Johnson (24:26):
And again.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (24:27):
If I am a good steward, that means I will
be submissive to God's will,but I have this sense of
accountability in every decision.
Zack Johnson (24:36):
I make so.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (24:37):
Wesley goes to the door.
One day there was a poor maidthat had made a delivery, I
suppose, and he looked and sawshe had a very thin garment on
and he said is this all you have?
And yes, sir, it's all I have.
And he reached in his pocket togive her some money and
realized he had just spent it ona picture to decorate his
(24:59):
apartment.
And he said, oh, here is theblood of this poor creature is
on my hands.
I couldn't afford it.
I should have saved the moneyand given it to her.
And that was really his primarymotivation for the strict
standards that he enjoyed uponMethodist that moment in his
life was.
Well, I know that attitude, andso he said don't ever let this
(25:22):
word come out of your mouth Ican afford this or that.
Now he said your duty take careof your basic needs, your
family's basic needs, and then,beyond that, you're to bless
others, You're to be a stewardto others, you are to take the
things that God entrusts intoyour hands and to give those to
(25:43):
help others.
Well, along that line, when youmove to the radical holiness
networks, Along that line, whenyou move to the radical holiness
networks exemplified by MartinWelsnapp, who started the school
in Cincinnati called God'sBible School, he emphasized a
radical stewardship as well, Tothe point that when he started
(26:04):
his school, he deeded theproperty to God.
Now, the court in Ohio had ahard time dealing with that
after he died.
How?
Zack Johnson (26:13):
can God own property?
It's a hard question.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (26:15):
At least in Ohio that was a challenge,
but the idea is that God is theproprietor over everything.
I'm only a steward and to methat's something that I want to
take personally and I like toshare with young people.
Zack Johnson (26:29):
It's the value of stewardship.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (26:30):
The stewardship and that being a
guiding principle in my life.
Now, the uncanny thing for alot of people is good
stewardship for one person maywork out very differently than
good stewardship for someoneelse and in a world where we
like to have everything cut anddried and you can do this and
(26:52):
you can't do that, sometimesgood stewardship will dictate
that one person makes aninvestment that another person
cannot make, or that they dosomething that another person
cannot do and that actually hasa certain appeal to rugged
American individualism, and sowe have to be careful because,
(27:16):
on the other hand, it can becomea slippery slope where we can
say, well, my conscience isn'ttroubled about that.
But if we live with this carefulawareness that Wesley enjoined
of remembering, we areaccountable to the judge, I
think it's a very deepmotivation for careful biblical
living.
Wesley enjoined of remembering,we are accountable to the judge
.
Zack Johnson (27:36):
I think it's a very deep motivation for careful
biblical living, I mean.
And then how do you recommendpeople develop the stewardship
that we see in Wesley?
I pass around a list ofquestions that Wesley sort of
asks himself on a regular basis,and I think I find that helpful
to look at someone like Wesleyand see, hey, what are they
(27:59):
asking themselves and holdingthemselves against regularly?
Are there any other ways thatyou've found to?
I'll even use the word disciple, disciple to disciple people
towards stewardship, includingyourself.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (28:11):
Well, I think one of the ways that we
can encourage this kind ofstewardship mentality is is by
developing some relationships,friendships similar to what
Wesley developed and encouragedin the class meetings and band
meetings, where some of thosequestions are not just dealt
(28:33):
with privately but some of thosequestions are brought up.
You know, there may be a blindspot in my life that I'm not
being a good steward and don'teven realize it, my life, that
I'm not being a good steward anddon't even realize it, and
someone else a faithful brotheror sister can say what about
this?
Now I think we have to becareful in those contexts that
(28:58):
we don't try to impose ourconscience on someone else.
Right, our conscience onsomeone else.
But I think even having thequestions voiced at times can
help us.
Maybe there's something that'snot a convenient question to
deal with and our brother saysyeah, but you need to think
about it.
Zack Johnson (29:21):
Yeah, one of the practices the church I attend
used to put into place a littlebit more regularly was asking
the question what mars the imageof Christ in me?
Having somebody else answerthat question towards you?
It's actually a practice that alot of people feel comfortable
taking on, and it was madefamous by the Moravians Right.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (29:37):
This idea of and, of course, wesley was
deeply indebted to the Moravians.
Right Wesley was deeplyindebted to the Moravians.
One of the questions thatstrikes me is, especially in our
age of social media andimpression management and
basically every person becomestheir own advertiser is do I try
(29:59):
to make myself appear betterthan I really am?
Zack Johnson (30:04):
That question is on the list of questions Right
right.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (30:08):
And I think sometimes if there's
someone who has an intimateacquaintance with us, they may
be more readily answer thatquestion than we may.
I remember both of thesegentlemen are back in Holland's
history.
Both of them are deceased and Idon't think there's any way
(30:31):
that anyone would identify thembecause of that fact.
But I was interviewing onegentleman about another historic
figure whom he had known and Iasked him about his leadership,
his stewardship, whatever, orhis perspective on this person
(30:55):
and he said well, he said thisgentleman had a higher opinion
of his spirituality than anyoneelse did Right, of his
spirituality than anyone elsedid Right, and that man seemed
like the kind of person thatcould have benefited from
someone asking or dealing withthis question.
Am I putting out a perceptionor, in his case, has he deluded
(31:18):
himself until he feels like thathe is much better a person than
other people perceive him to beRight?
Zack Johnson (31:28):
Yeah, I actually think that frequent questioning
of our own lives with people wetrust is one of the heartbeats
of how to stay strong in thefaith.
Yes, and I think that's kind ofwhat the church is designed for
.
And we, we we think a lot aboutthat at our college on how do
(31:51):
we get our students to develop ahabit on a at least a weekly
basis to have somebody checkingin on you and then, over time,
developing a framework for howto actually structure that time,
because if not, you canunintentionally drift away.
But speaking about stewardship,I know you're actually giving a
talk here at Sadler in about 15minutes and so I know whoever's
(32:16):
listening can watch that talkas well.
Are there any other thingsyou'd like to share in more of a
casual environment, about someof your passions, your burdens,
the resources you love toconsume, anything along those
lines?
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (32:32):
Well, I do love to read, I'm sure it
doesn't surprise me.
And so one of my hobbies isvisiting bookstores and
especially looking for holinessbooks.
What's interesting is a lot ofthose are little pamphlets,
little booklets, and some ofthem are jewels.
(32:53):
I'll give an example of onethat I particularly am fond of
collecting.
He was and is consideredeccentric.
His name was WB Godbey was andis considered eccentric.
His name was WB Godby, and oneof my particular interests is
he's from Pulaski County,kentucky, where I guess that's
as close to home place as I have.
That's where my parents live.
Zack Johnson (33:13):
In Kentucky.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (33:15):
Yes in Kentucky South Central Kentucky
and Godby was a prolific writer.
He wrote a set of commentarieson the New Testament, did a
translation of the New Testamentwhich may seem a little
counterintuitive to those thatare familiar with elements of
(33:37):
the conservative Arlenistmovement that would emphasize
use of the King James Bible.
Well, he used the Greek, fromTischendorf, as he would say,
and he thought it waschronologically significant that
Tischendorf discovered what hewould call the Sinaitic
Manuscript the year that heexperienced the entire
(33:59):
sanctification education uh, butuh, a bit of eccentric, as I
said, he he was known to uh haveuh unique habits.
Uh, he basically would put hiswardrobe on when he would start
out on a trip and uh, one of hisperegrinations, as he would
(34:20):
call it, he, he traveled aroundand basically when the outer
layer got sold he would justremove that and move on.
But he was very talentedlinguistically, somewhat
creative, and created his ownwords when he didn't know a good
(34:40):
English word that would sufficeand was very instrumental in
keeping large swaths of theHoliness movement from embracing
Pentecostalism.
So I love to look for Godlythings Is there a particular
pamphlet.
Well, he wrote over 200.
So for the audience, if they'regoing to Google one, Well, if
(35:02):
you can find it actually, I sawone not too long ago available
for about $20, which I wasreally surprised.
But his very first one was onbaptism Okay, mode and design.
So if somebody If it's stillavailable, they could find a
little treasure there.
But he wrote a lot aboutprophecy and he had some unique
views, but basically he was apremillennialist, got it,
(35:33):
prophecy, and he had some uniqueviews, but basically he was a
premillennialist, got it and uh,so, uh, if you're wanting
something really creative thoughinfantile justification, okay,
uh is another one that he did.
But uh, they said when he died,uh, in cincinnati, ohio, the
room where he died, which was acollege dormitory room, that it
was about two weeks after theyremoved his body before people
could enter the room.
It was so saturated with thepresence of God.
Zack Johnson (35:55):
Really.
Yeah, I didn't know if it wasgoing to be disorganized in the
presence of God, I mean he'sreally an amazing figure.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (36:01):
their presence of God, I mean.
He's really an amazing figure.
He was at a train stop once inmid-Missouri and some people met
him.
There had no idea who he was atfirst.
They described how disheveledhe looked and he had a bunch of
booklets bundled together withtwine hanging over his shoulder
(36:22):
and they said something likethis when they found out who it
was, they said one wonders ifJesus returned to the earth, if
anyone would recognize him.
Zack Johnson (36:32):
Well, yeah, thanks , sir, I'll actually look him up
there.
And then in the last fiveminutes you actually were able
to share at the Sadler Tea Timetoday.
We share pearls, right, and Ialways like to ask this in a
podcast Are there any pearls ofwisdom that you really like to
have reflected on and like toleave with people?
(36:54):
I don't know if you'll resharethe one that you shared this
morning or have any other onesup your sleeve.
Wallace Thornton, Jr. (37:01):
Well, I think I could briefly share at
least one of them, and what Iwas talking about was evaluating
language and symbolism that'sbeen used in history, but also
how that relates to study ofGod's word, studying the Bible,
(37:25):
and the danger that I mentionedas my first pearl.
I guess you could say they werecautionary notes, but sometimes
wisdom does come out as anegative, as a caution, and that
was the danger of eisegesis.
And I heard a story I believethe figure was Eudora Welty, a
(37:49):
famous American writer thatthere was a conference of
literary criticism of her workand there was a brilliant young
scholar who waxed his eloquenceand was showing his erudition
and focused on a single lightbulb in a stark room as a
(38:12):
symbolism of the loneliness ofmodernity, of modern life.
And all of a sudden, as he madethis brilliant point, a little
elderly woman jumped up in theback of the room and said that's
brilliant, I never thought ofthat and it would have been
(38:35):
great praise, except it was theauthor, it was Eudora Welty, and
he read into her work what shenever intended.
And yeah, she said I neverthought of that.
And I'm afraid sometimes thatpeople read scripture or read
(38:56):
history and they find thingsthat the author never intended.
And so I want to be careful asa historian, as a Christian, to
be faithful to authorial intent.
Mine as a historian, as myfriend Bill would say, is not
(39:17):
necessarily to agree with thesources, but it's to understand
them Right and then hopefullyfaithfully share that
understanding with others.
Zack Johnson (39:27):
Right, yeah, that's really good.
I preached a few sermons overthe last few years and somebody
came up to me and said your jobis to put a microphone to the
scripture and try to tune outall the noise, but it's very.
That's actually a dauntingchallenge to read the scriptures
and then to speak about themwithout adding on something
(39:50):
beyond the intent.
Well, out of just a caution toget you to your next affair here
, I just want to say thank youso much for joining me and if
anybody listening is interestedin sort of a rigorous academic
experience with discipleship inBoston, one of the most historic
cities in the US, I might add,Sadler College is a great place
(40:13):
to consider Anything else youwant to add.
I thank you for the privilege.
Yeah, absolutely, it's been anhonor and we'll get you to your
talk and thank you for joiningme.
Thank you.
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