October 25, 2024 • 44 mins
In this episode, Joshua Lindsey, creator of the YouTube channel Ready to Harvest, shares his journey from Bible college to becoming a prominent voice in the study of Christian denominations. Joshua explains how he maintains a neutral point of view when covering various denominations and dives into the research process behind his in-depth videos. He also discusses the ethics of creating Christian content on YouTube, the challenges of balancing faith and fact, and offers advice for navigating the diverse world of Christian denominations.
Learn more about studying Biblical and Religious Studies at Sattler.
Mentioned in this episode:
- Ready to Harvest – Joshua’s YouTube channel on Christian denominations
- The World Christian Encyclopedia – Detailed data on Christian denominations
Timestamps:
0:00 – Introduction and Welcome
0:19 – Joshua’s Background and Educational Journey
3:40 – Creating Neutral Content on Christian Denominations
10:05 – Researching Christian Denominations for YouTube
18:30 – Ethics of Creating Christian Content on YouTube
25:20 – Popular Videos and Viewer Feedback
33:00 – Navigating Denominations and Church Splits
40:15 – Advice for Christians in Divided Denominations
47:30 – Closing Thoughts and Origami Fun Fact
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zack Johnson (00:03):
All right, it is October 9th and I'm here with
Joshua Lindsay from North Dakotaor Minnesota.
Joshua Lindsey (00:10):
Yeah, both.
I mean I go to work in NorthDakota but live in Minnesota, so
I'm bored of there.
Zack Johnson (00:15):
Great Well, joshua , I love I usually just read a
bio, but I couldn't find like asuccinct bio and yours online,
so I'm just going to let yougive us your like a five minute
bio and yours online, sure, soI'm just gonna let you give us
your like a five minute who youare, where you come from, some
of your passions, just so peopleknow who you are.
Joshua Lindsey (00:30):
I mean, I should probably do that at some point
is do a better buy one of theone of the reasons why you might
not have even found that isbecause my channel ready to
harvest, which I'll talk about,is from neutral point of view,
so I try not to generally havemy own stuff, to talk too much
about myself, because I'm justthe person who's providing the
information, but to give alittle bit more information
(00:52):
about who I am.
I was born in Washington StateWe'll go all the way back there
and I've actually been aroundquite a bit, mostly in the
Midwest, since then.
But I came in 2011 to Fargo,north Dakota, to go to Bible
college and then, after going toBible college there, in 2015, I
actually came on staff atMasters Baptist College in Fargo
(01:14):
, north Dakota and I teach someclasses there.
I am also the station managerof Christian radio station there
, having 88.7 radio, and thenalso do IT work for the church
and for the college, and one ofthe things I was asked to do is
to teach a one-week class onChristian denominations, and so
(01:35):
in doing that, I decided to makesome videos, and that's really
what set things off.
I put them online and that ledto where I am today making
videos about Christiandenominations on YouTube as
really one of the primary thingsthat I do and when I think
about what people think of me.
Obviously, the people that I'mclosest to think of me as the
(01:55):
guy that's at church, but mostof the world knows me from
YouTube and Christiandenominations.
Zack Johnson (02:02):
Okay, and you mentioned Ready to Harvest.
Can you just tell me a littlebit about Ready to Harvest and
what that is?
I know there's a website.
There's also a YouTube channel.
Can you just tell me a littlebit about that?
Joshua Lindsey (02:13):
Yeah, primarily a YouTube channel.
I did make a website where ifpeople want to support the
channel they can go there andwatch the videos without ads.
And also my videos are.
I do make transcripts, so allmy videos are scripted.
I make transcripts withfootnotes and stuff and I put
that on the website.
But where almost everybody isrunning into me is on YouTube
and there I make YouTube videoson Christian denominations.
(02:36):
Some of my videos are just onone Christian denomination.
That's kind of one of the bigthings that I enjoy working on
is studying a particulardenomination like the Lutheran
Church, missouri Synod orAnglican Church in North America
, and doing it from a neutralpoint of view.
So my goal is, when all is saidand done, if somebody watches
the video from that denomination, they'll say that that video
(02:58):
represents them fairly and thatthey like it and could even
recommend it.
In fact, for one denomination Iremember a pastor saying like
oh, this is a really goodoverview of our denomination.
I'm going to use this videowhen I bring on new staff to
show them what we're about, andso that's my idea, for
everything is to do it neutrally, about every other week that I
make a video on one denominationand then the other video on the
(03:18):
alternating week will beanything else.
So, maybe comparing twodenominations, I've made some
videos that are like quiz videoson denominations or talking
about something happening inreal time.
So I made several videos overthe last few years when the
United Methodist Church wassplitting in two.
Well, the UNC and a lot ofgroups were leaving and many of
(03:41):
them ended up going into theGlobal Methodist Church, so I
covered that issue primarily.
So there's some aspect ofdenomination news that I'll
cover every once in a while, butit's an endless stream of
material.
There's just a lot to talkabout and, honestly, not at
least at the level ofgranularity that I go into.
There's not really anybody elsewho's doing the same thing.
(04:02):
There's people who make videosjust on you know what do
Lutherans believe?
But to go into, okay, what'sthe difference between the
Lutheran Church, missouri Synodand North American Lutheran
Church and that kind of thing.
Most people aren't going tothat level of detail.
So I feel like it's providingsomething that really just
hasn't existed.
I always thought when I makevideos like my core audience is
(04:24):
probably ministers or people whoare involved in some way, you
know, actually running intomultiple denominations.
I don't know that that'sactually the reality, like a lot
of people just seem to bepeople who just find this topic
(04:45):
interesting and maybe they'veattended a couple different
churches in their life.
But I do think, like if I wassomebody who was trying to
minister in the city and my cityhad 10 other churches, where
would I go to try to be like,okay, so what else is around
here?
What do they believe?
And I thought like I'm going totry to be that resource where
they can find out about all thechurches in the area, and so far
it seems to be working.
The biggest complaint anybodywould have is that it can only
go so fast, right?
You know, uh, there's beenpeople been asking can you make
(05:07):
a video on this group?
For, you know, three, fouryears, and in this I'm making
videos every week, but I canonly do so much.
But, uh, that's good, I have alot of opportunity in the future
to continue to do the samething and then so, how do you do
your research?
Zack Johnson (05:19):
yeah, for your videos is it primarily,
primarily, internet-based.
Do you do any live interviewsin the churches?
Joshua Lindsey (05:26):
It is primarily internet-based.
I am almost always looking forentirely primary sources.
I don't use the handbook ofChristian denominations and
things like that that exist,because also denominations can
change sometimes pretty quickly.
That kind of stuff can get outof date.
(05:47):
So first place I'll go is seedo they have a statement of
faith or do they haveconfessions that they hold to,
and I'll read through all ofthose and I have a certain set
of things that I'm looking tofind out what they believe about
.
In my research I'll oftendiscover some other areas that I
don't look into.
For every denomination there'ssome things that really make
them stand out.
But then if I find, afterreading the Statement of Faith,
(06:09):
like there's nothing.
I can't find out what theybelieve about tithing or divorce
and remarriage, then I'll startdigging further.
Sometimes I've had to purchasee-books, or actual physical
books in some cases, and waitfor those to arrive in the mail
and read through those.
I never used to like ebooks.
I used to always readeverything on physical books.
But I have come around, youknow, like an ebook you can, you
(06:31):
know, copy and paste things ifthey're good and it's a big look
, both stuff uh, I'm a huge fanof ebooks, yeah yeah, it's.
It took me a little while butI've come around.
So I do.
I do ebooks, but somedenominations actually have put
out apps and, like you,subscribe to the app.
So I did that recently where Ihad to pay for like a monthly
subscription to the app and wasable to get information and
research there.
Uh, I've often ended up readingthrough, or at least skimming
(06:54):
through, the tables of contentsof like several years or decades
worth of a denominationsmagazine to see like, okay, if
they don't have it in theirstatement of faith, maybe
somebody brought it up in theirmagazine.
So I'll read through all ofthose.
Some denominations have likelists of resolutions that
they've had at conferences overthe years, and so I'll read
through the list of resolutionsWhenever I can.
I'll do targeted Googlesearches on their website.
(07:17):
If I still can't find it, I'lllook up local church
congregations within thedenomination and find a whole
list of those and then do atargeted Google search for
certain words on all of theirwebsites to see if they've ever
discussed the issue.
So it can be kind of complex,but it's kind of fun too.
It's like something.
Zack Johnson (07:34):
And do you do?
When you shop a video or youship out a video, do you do all
the editing and everything.
Joshua Lindsey (07:40):
It is a one man thing.
Nobody else touches my videosat all before I release them.
So it is a process.
I start by studying them andoften I'll do the research.
I'll make the video, I'll getthe script done, and then I
won't touch that for a month.
I'll research anothergeneration and then I'll have
that script done, and then Iwon't touch that for a while.
And then, once I've madeseveral that way, then I'll go
(08:03):
back and start making graphicsfor the video.
So I have the script, I'll makethe graph, and while I'm making
the graphics sometimes I'll belike, oh, I need to fix this.
One of the things that'sinteresting is because I do that
.
I, I make the video.
A lot of research really.
When I'm making the graphicsI'm reading the whole video
again.
So, like I, I'm like putting inmy own mind to remember it.
Then I record the video, I'mthe video.
(08:23):
So that's the third timegetting all the information.
Zack Johnson (08:25):
I know.
Joshua Lindsey (08:29):
I don't like scrolling text, like most
traditional teleprompter ideasare, but I do have a screen that
is next to my camera, and thenit's actually like a Word doc
set to a read mode, and I justtap on the keyboard and it'll
advance one page like a smallpage of text.
So then, after that though,after making the graphics and
then recording finally is theediting.
(08:50):
Well, not even finally theediting the whole video has to
be edited.
So I hear it again, and then,when it's done, I always and
this is a recommendation foranybody who makes content online
when you're done editing,always watch the video again.
Like watch it before things willbe messed up, there'll be
problems, there'll be a blankscreen for a while, and
sometimes this stuff even makesit through after I've watched it
.
But I've always, always,watched the video, so I end up
(09:12):
like, however long the video islike, I've seen it five times by
the time it's out there, on topof all the research it took to
make it.
Zack Johnson (09:19):
So, yeah, that that does take a lot of time to
do all that and and where areyou going to get at that?
Sometimes you change what yousaid throughout that process.
By the end you catch something.
Joshua Lindsey (09:29):
I think there's been a few times.
You know, you get to the pointwhere you know I've already made
the video, I've uploaded it,I've scheduled it, but I haven't
released it yet.
And then, you know, I justencounter something and I
realize, oh, I didn't say thatright, or like oh, I should have
mentioned this instead.
I had a video I made onChristian denominations that
observed Seventh-day Sabbath andI had a comparison video with
(09:53):
seven denominations.
And then I made another videoand it was another group that
did it.
The whole video is neverintending to be comprehensive,
of every group that does, but Iwas like, boy, I should really
put this other group in theretoo, right?
So I just, you know, redesignedthe whole thing and added
another group in there.
That took a lot of time I can'tdo that frequently because it
takes so much time to redosomething but I thought, you
know, I really ought to do that,but at least at the graphics
(10:15):
making stage of things, that'swhere I opted and say, oh, I
need to adjust this a little bit.
So there is some editing afterthe fact, that goes into
everything Got it.
Zack Johnson (10:23):
And then I'm just going to ask some trivia.
What are some of your mostpopular videos that you've made,
sure?
Joshua Lindsey (10:30):
My most popular video, I think right now is
called Eastern Christianityversus Western Christianity,
which is something I thought Iremember searching on YouTube.
I was like people talk aboutthis a lot, is there a video
like this?
And I don't think there wasanother video by that title at
the time, and there's alwaysbeen people, especially people
who are Catholic versus Orthodox.
(10:51):
That's always been somethingthat people are interested in.
So Eastern Christianity versusWestern Christianity takes at
least that but also adds to itthe question of Protestantism
and then a few other interestingthings like Eastern protestants
and western orthodox and such,and describes that whole issue.
Uh, maybe, obviously thethumbnail and the title is a big
thing to any video becomingespecially popular, but it also
(11:13):
has to be a topic that has broadappeal.
Um, like somebody might say well, if you become a really good
youtuber, you can make any videogo viral, and you can, as long
as you're willing to only makethe content that you know will
go viral.
But I don't want to do that.
So, like, if I make the video,um, you know I have one that
will be coming out eventually on, you know, christ sanctified
holy church, and my video iswhat is christ sanctified holy
(11:36):
church.
That video is not going to goviral.
You know most people don't know, they don't care, you know, and
that I'm okay with that.
Like I'm learning study, I'mlearning to learn it for myself
give information on a group thatreally nobody's talking about,
but every once in a while,because I've learned about these
very precise things aboutChristian denominations, now I
can make a really goodinformational, broader topic
(11:57):
video on something that maybe alot of people will click through
and I can give a lot of thatinformation I've learned from
these little groups and makethose videos interesting, which
makes people watch longer, ifpeople watch longer than YouTube
continues to recommend it,because it doesn't matter.
Ultimately, if you click on avideo, if you click away,
youtube will stop recommending.
If people aren't watching itLike cause.
Then they say oh, you know, youcould put whatever title and
(12:19):
thumbnail on the video, it couldjust be junk and and YouTube
doesn't want its viewers to togo away that fast.
So only if people watch thevideo a significant time will
youtube continue to recommend itand uh, so yeah, that that one
video on eastern christianityversus western is is the top one
.
One of my videos on the unitedmethodist split um, you know, is
(12:39):
also maybe number two up there.
I had a video that's lutheransbaptists.
It's comparing lutheransbaptists, methodists.
I forget exactly all.
There's like maybe number twoup there.
I had a video that's LutheransBaptists.
It's comparing LutheransBaptists, methodists.
I forget exactly.
There's like four groups andjust a straight up comparison of
four, which is pretty unusual.
Again, there's not a lot likethat on YouTube and that one did
really well for a while.
One of the first videos thatactually took off on my channel
(13:00):
and was for a period of timeprobably a year, was like, and
was for a period of timeprobably a year was just driving
my channel.
I made a video called Episcopalversus Anglican, which makes
people think because they'relike well, episcopalians are
Anglicans, right.
So that video and it wasactually a cut from a longer
video on a different topic andthat one did really well for a
while.
So it's somewhat predictable.
(13:20):
I often will tell my wife I'mlike this video is going to do
well.
This video, I said like it'sgoing to be, it's not going to
do super well, but that's okay.
I know what I'm going for andmost of the time I'm correct on
that.
I can tell which videos will dobetter and and I'm fine with
making ones that don't do better, because my goal is more than
just getting as many clicks aspossible.
It's, you know, getting theinformation out there about the
(13:43):
big groups, but also the smallones.
Zack Johnson (13:50):
Right, and then the average length of your
videos are like give or take anhour.
Joshua Lindsey (13:52):
I mean sure, I try to avoid an hour at this
point, so I think most of themare probably going to be between
15 minutes to 35 minutes orsomething like that minutes to
to 35 minutes or something likethat.
Um, I made a video a while backon the uh salvation army and
that video was over an hour longand I just remember like
(14:13):
recording it and it's like, oh,this is such a slog like with my
stuff that there's so manygraphics to make.
Um, and just sitting down andrecording for an hour long is
not a lot of fun either,especially when you're just
reading off a script and I waslike I need to stop this and
there's no, no one's going towant to watch this.
And just sitting down andrecording for an hour long is
not a lot of fun either,especially when you're just
reading off a script and I waslike I need to stop this and he
(14:33):
goes nope, no one's going towant to watch this video, it's
just too long.
And so I kind of committed atthat point all right, I'm going
to start, as opposed to alwaysjust reading off full quotes,
I'm going to try to put thequote on the screen and
highlight parts and stuff.
So I Try to cut things back, butsome videos.
You know, if I have a topicthat's really very in-depth and
you know if it takes an hour todo it, I'll do it in an hour.
But I do try to avoid being toolong and I have some videos
(14:56):
that are pretty quick too.
I had a series on Christiandenominations in two minutes.
I believe there's 60 videos inthat series.
I released them three at a timeand so those are just two
minutes for each video, got itand then.
Zack Johnson (15:07):
So you mentioned something earlier on about
presenting things from a neutralpoint of view.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout what that means to you,
and is that a vision you hadoriginally?
Joshua Lindsey (15:20):
Is it something you kind of decided when you
kind of more along the way askedto teach a class on Christian
denominations, I knew at leastthe starting point needs to be
neutral to some extent, like atleast fair.
I need to talk aboutdenominations and say here's
what they actually believe.
And you know, when I'm makingthat video, I'm researching it.
(15:41):
What am I looking for?
I'm looking for neutralinformation.
So it's like you know, there isa value in neutrality to be
able to find something you cantrust.
And then, even if later on Iwant to build on it and say, now
here's where these groups needto be corrected, or something
like that, I have to start bysomething I can trust that this
is what they actually say.
And so when I made those videos, I looked at the source and
looked at what thosedenominations themselves said.
(16:03):
But then I realized and Iactually realized before this
that there's just not that muchon YouTube about Christian
denominations, and certainly notfrom a neutral perspective.
A couple years ago I made avideo called Neutral Point of
View is Wrong, which is a catchytitle, and that one did do well
.
And what I say in that video isthat neutral point of view can
(16:27):
only answer certain questions.
Neutral point of view can onlyanswer certain questions, like,
if you're talking about a warand two sides are fighting over
it, you can describe why they'refighting, but you can't
describe who's right, becausethen you're no longer neutral,
you've now taken a side.
So the important, maybe themost important question who is
(16:48):
right is actually left out ofneutral point of view.
So, in that sense, if you'releaving off that, then you could
say, in some sense, neutralpoint of view is wrong.
Now, ultimately, I would say atthe end of the video is you
know, I choose to make thischannel from neutral point of
view anyway, but I recognizethat no person should be neutral
Like in your life.
You do have to make conclusionson these things, but there's a
(17:10):
value in us being able to cometogether and agree on the
parameters of the debate beforewe start.
You know, if we're going toargue about entire
sanctification, for example, Ishould be able to explain it and
you should be able to explainit.
We should be able to agree whatit is.
And then we can say all right,now, here's what I think is
wrong or here's what I think isright.
(17:31):
And too many times people aretrying to say you know, you
believe this, and the otherperson says no, no, no, I don't
believe that.
And then you spend the wholetime arguing trying to tell them
what they believe it's like.
Well, let's start by okay whatdo you believe?
All right, I think we've gotthat cleared.
Now we can argue why I thinkit's right or wrong, instead of
just continuing being wrappedaround that question of of what
(17:52):
they actually believe and sosome of the alternative
perspectives you could would itbe like a persuasive point of
view is sure that would be thesort of an alternative way to
make a video yeah, absolutely,and the the existence and the
fact that I make my channel fromneutral point of view is no
slam on anybody doing anythingdifferently, or even saying that
I won't necessarily at somepoint in the future make a
channel, that it's far moretraditional to just make a
(18:15):
channel that you know you'reyourself and and really, by
being neutral point of view, I'mnot myself on my channel in
that way right, I most peopledon't know very much about me
and that considered that's fine.
Uh, because the my channel isnot really in any way about me
and I've only said in maybe twoor three of my videos I've even
given my name, joshua.
(18:36):
I don't even for YouTubechannels they always say you
know, you want people to get toknow you, you know, introduce
yourself at every video andthings like that.
And I could do that and stillobviously be neutral.
But my thought is like I'm just, I, just I'm the narrator.
In fact I've had people commentbefore and I, you know I don't
know if they use the wordnarrator or something like that,
but you know, you can tell likeI'm just working for a rate of
(18:59):
harvest and just the guy thatreads stuff off or whatever.
But yeah, I do make, I do thewhole thing.
But it's not really about me,it's about the, the content that
I'm making, it about the groupsthat I'm discussing.
Zack Johnson (19:09):
Great, and then I know what was the title of the
talk you gave to yeah, so wewere talking about that.
Joshua Lindsey (19:16):
Content creation can be a good thing.
Yeah, the idea of being onYouTube and using it in the
right way.
Zack Johnson (19:24):
And what were some of the points you were trying
to make in the talks for thepeople who don't get a chance to
listen?
Joshua Lindsey (19:31):
trying to make in the talks for the people who
don't get a chance to listen.
Um well, there's so much onyoutube that, uh, what I see a
lot for christian contentcreators on youtube is they end
up getting caught up in thewhole like trying to get the
most clicks and things like that, and what that ends up doing is
, uh, you're not really theperson making the content.
At that point you're lettingwhatever is clickable, whatever
the audience wants or whateverwill make them click, even if
(19:53):
they want it or not.
You know, whatever will getthem stirred up be the thing
that drives your channel.
And so, for me, I've said youknow, I'm just going to make
things that I think areimportant and some of them will
do well and some of them won't.
So that's one of the dangers.
Of course, there's anotherthing.
If a person decides to makecontent on YouTube, is you have
to watch out about the pridefactor?
People can get proud.
I mean, that's not really adanger.
(20:14):
If your channel gets big, a lotof people kind of wish they
could have the opportunity to dothat, because a lot of people
think, oh, I can't be that hardand honestly, I'm sure there's a
lot.
You could call it luck orwhatever.
There's a lot of things thatwent into my channel that I
wasn't entirely in control of.
There's the algorithm, you know, and all those things.
But if a person does happen todo well, then it's like just
(20:37):
because you have a lot of peoplelistening to you doesn't mean
you're any worth hearing.
It doesn't mean your opinion isany more valuable than anybody
else's.
So you have to watch out forthose kinds of things.
It's easy I actually for a goodwhile when I got started.
It's so easy to just be caughtup in statistics.
Like I'm a statistically mindedguy.
I have some videos on mychannel about it and I could
just be obsessing about, likeyou know, okay, how did I do
(21:00):
today compared to last?
And YouTube makes that way tooeasy.
There's like all this complexstuff and here's all the videos
you released in the past yearand here's how they compare.
Here's what they did in thefirst 24 hours, you know, in the
past year, and here's how theycompared.
Here's what they did in thefirst 24 hours, you know.
Uh, here's the click-throughrates.
Here's the average viewduration.
You can get really just buriedin that.
I've I've finally learned tokind of move past that somewhat
and I can just not look at anyof those analytics for for weeks
(21:22):
and I'll be fine, um, but thatperson can just kind of let that
control them.
One thing that I think is apitfall and I talked about uh,
but that doesn't have to be andI've I've avoided it.
People talk a lot about burnouton youtube, about you know you,
just you finish making a videoand then the very next thing is
I must make another one like Imean, everybody's expecting it.
(21:43):
I've got to keep, especially ifyou have a schedule set for
yourself like there's no rest.
And for me, I work ahead oftime, so I make a video and I
schedule it to release at somepoint in the future and I work
until I have a big backlog.
So I actually have a couplemonths of content.
That's already.
And if I if I get.
I mean this is happy, like if Iget sick and I'm laying in bed
(22:04):
like I'm not both sick and alsostressing about like, oh, I
gotta like do it all pulling allnight or on saturday night or
something, to get a video ready.
I think that's terrible for forlike, mental health to do that
and, um, this is probably one ofthe reasons that people burn
out.
Uh, you know, I I enjoy goinghome, being with the family,
going on the bike ride with mykids, and I just I never let,
(22:28):
I've, I've, I've found a goodway to have those separate
domains of things.
Like, when I'm with my kids,I'm not thinking about my
YouTube channel.
Um, when I'm doing my other, myother work that I do and not
thinking about my YouTubechannel, you know, I have those
times and then when I do one andleave that, I switch onto the
other thing and I can work onthat, and that's a luxury only
(22:49):
afforded by the fact that Iactually have prepared ahead of
time, and so it's not like, well, this has to be done tomorrow
or it's all over.
So I do think it's good to makesure that you're not always
focused on on content creationor something like that right and
did you?
Zack Johnson (23:07):
I?
Do you have any advice onYouTube consumption versus
creation, on like see guidingprinciples for people to think
about where they're consumingtheir media?
Because I think it's a reallycommon thing that I hear among
people my true people in schoolis they go onto YouTube to do
(23:28):
something at night, let's justsay for a homework assignment.
It's two hours later.
They've literally just burnedtwo hours, whatever the
algorithm coming from them.
Do you have any guidingprinciples on how to use YouTube
in a I said maybe a healthy way, avoiding maybe some of the
stuff on there that probablyisn't worth people's time?
Yeah, you have to be one of thestuff on there that probably
(23:50):
isn't worth people's time yeah,you have to be.
Joshua Lindsey (23:52):
One of the things to be mindful of is
realize what these mediaplatforms, what their
motivations, right, and uh.
People have mentioned like well, you know, if you go to the
youtube search and say you justtype christian denominations,
like the first three resultswill be relevant and then after
that it's like it's just lookingat your home it's a bunch of
suggested content and thingslike that.
(24:13):
Why would you do that when theyknow you're looking for for
content on Christiandenominations?
And the reason is, themotivation behind YouTube is not
necessarily to provide whatyou're looking for.
If providing what you'relooking for makes you stay long
on YouTube, then they'll providewhat you're looking for.
But their motivation is keepyou on the site as long as
(24:33):
possible.
And so they've found and thetestimony of the people who end
up spending two hours on thereif they just found what they
were looking for, they'd bethrough there and out in 15, 20
minutes, right.
But YouTube knows, if theyrecommend all this other stuff,
that you'll stay longer andthat's their goal.
Longer staying on the site ismore ad revenue and so forth.
It's all their goals.
So if you're aware of that,then you can think of ways to
(24:56):
counter that, and especially nowwith things like YouTube Shorts
, it's a really easy way to burnup time.
People are flipping throughthese quick, fast videos With
those.
I think you see one.
You think, oh, that was funny,that was interesting.
If you, let's say, you spentone minute on a short, which is
really the longest they can be,and you did that for an hour,
that means you watch 60 piecesof content.
(25:16):
I would bet, though, if youtalk to a person after they
finished that hour and you said,okay, tell me how many of those
you can remember, like how manyof them can you actually call
out?
They would find, like even theone they watched three minutes
ago that was funny andinteresting.
They can't remember it becauseit's not something that's
lasting.
It's just that very fast,short-term waste of time and I
think that's what we have toultimately decide is like what
(25:39):
kind of things are a waste oftime, and what will I
consciously decide not to do, orat least find some way to limit
it?
I mean, at the extreme, you canget, uh, web browser extensions
and things that will give youtime limits.
You know, after 30 minutes onYouTube, it cuts you off, and
that's all the YouTube for today, even if they're easy to bypass
(25:59):
.
Often that's good enough Likeit cuts it, like you know you
could do it, but you set this upand so you know you can get
around it if you want to.
But you say, oh, that's good,that's a reminder, I'm going to
stop this.
But if a person can be evenmore mindful, then they should
have a goal going into socialmedia.
Why am I going in here insteadof this thing?
where it's just like click onthe icon and just what is it
(26:19):
going to feed me today?
Zack Johnson (26:20):
Well, it's become sort of like turning on the TV.
I mean not to speak poorlyabout people with TVs in there,
but it's like I'm going to turnthis off just to burn time.
Joshua Lindsey (26:32):
YouTube has been in the past, to some extent, a
way to be different than that,in that you're the person
choosing what you're watching,as opposed to the TV, where it's
like whatever's on, I'll justwatch.
But that is what has changedwith things like Shorts and
TikTok.
They directly feed yousomething that you never asked
for at all, and then you candecide to flip away, but then
(26:54):
you just get presented withsomething else that you never
asked for.
So I do think that there's adefinite parallel there, and
obviously it's not all thatsurprising that.
YouTube is actually in the TVbusiness now too as well.
Yeah, there can be somesimilarities there, I think.
I mean, obviously, televisionwas the time waster of the last
half century at least, and nowin the last 20 years, you know,
(27:16):
the Internet has kind of come toreplace it or just add on to it
as another time waster.
Certainly, there's a lot ofvalue that can be provided by
the Internet, but, as anypowerful tool is, it's going to
be used by people with alldifferent motivations.
Zack Johnson (27:30):
Right, and then this is just like a a quick
question.
You don't have to have theright answer sometimes when we
do.
We're a christian college and wehave we have to do marketing
because we're looking for people, sure do you?
Do you feel like there's any?
Are there any ethical concernsabout using a platform like
YouTube that has a ton of otherquestionable content out there
(27:55):
to mix in your content into thatalgorithm?
Um, is there anything, arethere any ethical concerns that
we should be thinking about?
It's just like even anybusinesses trying to use the
platform, yeah, for probablygood motivations, and or are
there any like helpfulprinciples that you've thought
about to sort of work your wayaround that?
Joshua Lindsey (28:15):
yeah, you think about, like um, there's people
who, to kind of use an analogy,there's people who say, um, well
, we, we shouldn't use palm oil,and so then they use a
different kind of oil.
And then somebody says, well,you know that oil is actually
doing this and and you, you canessentially find an ethical
problem anywhere if you lookhard enough.
So the question is is balancing, like, how far are you willing
to go?
(28:36):
I mean obviously just the mostbase level.
If you're say, if you'reactually paying for
advertisement on YouTube, thenyou're putting money in the
pockets of YouTube and thepockets of Google, and I'm sure
we can find things that thosecompanies have donated to that
we disagree with.
So the question is can you usetheir services?
But, of course, by even watchingthe videos, you're supporting
(28:57):
that ad revenue stream, and soyou know at the end ultimately
you could try to make, and somepeople would make the argument
you can just go all the way andultimately say you have to stay
off the internet altogether.
Obviously I've not come to thatconclusion, but so, if you don't
take everything to its extreme,you do have the question okay,
(29:18):
is my ad going to be placed infront of things?
There are ways you can limit adplacement on YouTube, Like
there you can block certainchannels, like my ads will not
play there, but let's say, notadvertising.
Just, you know, posting as achannel and maybe their ads, but
they're not playing in front ofsomething else.
Well, you know, would you bewilling to put up a billboard,
(29:39):
you know, in your, in your localtown and and you guess what you
know, it might be on the otherside of the billboard, you know,
and what are the otherbillboards yeah, youtube is, I
still in a lot of ways, kind ofa public forum where everybody
is talking and um.
By choosing not to talk there,you're not lessening anybody
else's voice, generally loweringyour own um.
By talking, you're notapproving anybody else's voice
(30:01):
either.
You're simply making your ownbird.
So I do think there's anargument to be said, um that
there's a value in speaking onplatforms, even where people
have all kinds of things thatthey say uh.
I think there can also be thecase to be made where you know
there are probably platformsthat'd be better for us to stay
away from, just like there areplaces we'd stay away from, and
(30:21):
also, if alternatives come alongin the future that we say these
are better, then maybe it'stime to be willing to jump ship
and not get so committed to onegroup.
Zack Johnson (30:29):
Well, I just wanted to affirm that I'm in the
camp, that it's an.
There's an opportunity here toleverage the platform and I've
heard so many people that I bumpinto consume sort of just
sermons from, yeah, sermons onyoutube, which is a huge, yeah,
huge tool to be able to befeeding ourselves really.
(30:52):
But there.
Joshua Lindsey (30:54):
There's a massive number there.
There's so many churches todaythat stream all their content
onto YouTube, and so I, and theneven your videos.
Zack Johnson (31:01):
I've learned a lot from them, and so I just wanted
to thank you for a lot of thework you put in there.
Praise the Lord, and one of thethings that the other questions
I was going to get at is youknow this is changing topics a
little bit sure.
Do you know how manydenominations give or take in
christianity exists today?
Joshua Lindsey (31:20):
yeah, so I have a video on my channel called I
think it's called are therereally 45 000 christians?
Because there was a, uh, theworld christian encyclopedia
published that number a whileback and and that number, which
at this point it's beensomething that grows each year.
So you know there's people havesaid 35 000, 45 000, 65 000,
(31:41):
etc, etc.
But, um, that number came fromtaking essentially and every,
every, every denominationalgroup, and if they're in
multiple countries, then eachcountry is also considered a
separate denomination and so Ithink that number is is a bit
inflated.
Ultimately, there does becomethe question of what is a
denomination, because there's alot of churches that kind of are
(32:02):
one off, they're just like onechurch are they their own?
denominations.
Yeah, exactly like is each.
You know, each separatemovement, a denomination um and
even if there are a lot you know, when does it really start to
matter?
Like you know, the denominationof two churches over there, okay
, but like, should we reallycount that as another option in
the whole denominational sphere?
(32:23):
So if you look at the 2020 USReligion Census, they basically
had anything I would considernotable for united states
denominations and, as I recalltheir spreadsheet that gives
like the count of congregationsand adherence is maybe 400 or so
(32:44):
.
That would be like notable inthe us.
There are some other groupsthat are smaller than that.
Um, but if you're just going tocount everybody and count every
place across the world andstuff, it's an uncountable
number for sure.
I mean, like it's, it's it, itexists, the number exists and
god knows what it is, but, uh,there's not some central place
where they're all reporting tothat.
Zack Johnson (33:03):
We could get it and I guess my follow-up
question should we that there's,that you're not.
This is a hard question.
Should we be burdened by thegrowing number of denominations,
or is this something that someof us should be thinking about?
Hey, how do we?
How do we prevent this growingnumber?
Or is it okay?
(33:24):
Okay and natural?
Joshua Lindsey (33:26):
that's sort of the context of christianity each
each group has a different takeon that idea, because in some
Christian denominations the veryidea of schism, or separating,
breaking apart, is viewedextremely negative.
In others it's almost a regularoccurrence.
So if you look at, for example,presbyterians, hardly a year
(33:49):
goes by without anotherPresbyterian denomination
forming.
A year goes by without anotherPresbyterian denomination
forming.
And so if your denomination wasformed by splitting off,
there's inherently someacceptance that there can be a
right time for that.
Like you know, if the groupthat you're a part of went
liberal and you are stillconservative and you don't want
to fellowship with them, thenyou break away and that's what
(34:10):
they've decided to do.
You break away and that's whatthey've decided to do.
So, uh, I don't know if I canneutrally answer that question,
uh, but certainly some groupswould say like, no, like you're
always.
If, uh, if a group viewsthemselves as requiring a
necessity of apostolicsuccession, then if you don't at
least take a bishop with you,then there's a serious problem,
(34:31):
right in their view.
But there is the question Ithink that often comes up in
those discussions is well, isn'tit somewhat problematic when
you look at Christianity andnobody can agree on everything
you know?
Is there a problem.
Is there something wrong withChristianity that the Christians
can't get along?
More recently, I've seen somekind of apologetic in the
(34:51):
opposite direction, where peoplesay well, actually, the
abundance of Christiandenominations is a good thing.
It means people at least careabout theology, as opposed to
just like let's all just betogether and in the same church
when we all disagree on certainissues.
I think, ultimately, what itpoints to is people can justify
their beliefs regardless.
(35:12):
You can find a way to make thebible say what you want in one
way or the other, um, and ofcourse, everybody's gonna have
to do their own research to seewhich people are doing doing so
rightfully and which people aretrying to twist the scriptures
to match what they say.
Um, but I don't think that thechristian denominations, the
(35:32):
massive christian denominations,disproves christianity.
I think it's actuallyconsistent with christianity and
that christianity doesn't claimpeople are perfect.
They're going to follow thetruth.
In fact, just at the time thatchrist was around and his
apostles in the new testament,you already hear about people
who are, you know, leaving theright path and teaching their
own doctrines and then.
So it was immediatelyrecognized that there was going
(35:53):
to be false prophets, falsechrist and such.
So the abundance of christiandenominations is something that
you could almost say wasinevitable, um, and it shouldn't
be used, I don't think,ultimately, by itself, as some
kind of disproof of the truth ofthe christian message, right, I
think I think it's a.
Zack Johnson (36:12):
It's an interesting question because
sort of in my mid 20s is when Istarted thinking it was
important to pay attention todifferences across churches
because I think you said it wayearly on eventually we're gonna
have to make decisions forourselves about what we believe
and, and with like church splitsgoing on about key issues, it's
(36:38):
hard for me to know what.
What advice to give, alwaysabout, even when people are in a
, in a congregation that's goingthrough some sort of
disagreement.
Do you stay, do you go?
Is the growing number ofdenominations okay?
Do you have any advice to giveto people in sort of wrestling
with?
If they haven't, aren't amember of a denomination, don't
(37:02):
feel at home, are a little bitnomadic?
How do they go about makingdecisions If a church is going
through a hard time?
What's sort of the guidingprinciples on when to rally
behind the schism versus not?
It is a hard group of questions.
Joshua Lindsey (37:23):
Yes, but they are some of the more difficult
questions.
In the field of denomination.
I'll try to do my best toremember some of the things that
you've said there.
But I mean, there's quite a bitof a difference between, like,
a local congregation splittingand a whole denomination
splitting.
Let's take the congregationalaspect of things.
(37:43):
I think there's, depending onthe polity of a denomination,
these things may be vieweddifferently.
But within a congregationthat's dividing, I think most
people recognize, at least theywould say, that the church is
the people right.
And so ultimately, if thischurch has been founded on a
certain set of principles, ifyou're the one who's different,
(38:07):
I think it's generally a littledishonest to try to change that
group, to try to become like you.
They formed under thisunderstanding of Christianity.
Hey, if you don't like that, gostart something else or go find
somebody else who does it, asopposed to trying to twist them
into that.
That becomes problematicbecause occasionally it will
happen where somebody will comealong and be a minister at a
(38:29):
church who tries to change thatchurch and then ultimately,
instead of following that advice, where, if they followed my
position, to decide to leavebecause they're different now,
they're forcing everybody elsewho's comfortable in this church
teaching their theology toleave instead, and that's where
it becomes much more difficult.
If the polity structure doesn'tallow it, there's really just
(38:52):
not much way as far as to fight,like if in the end the
authority comes down to a boardwithin the church.
Then if there's no way that youcan find things being
reconciled, I'd say cut yourlosses.
You know, personalrelationships probably aren't
worth ruining to just fight andultimately lose the battle
anyway and go find someplacewhere you can serve God.
There's so much damage thathappens in church and
(39:15):
denomination splits individually.
There's so many people who'vebeen hurt from those kind of
things and just either pushedout of christianity altogether
or really got a sour taste abouta denomination that otherwise
they don't disagree with per se,but just the events that
happened in it have reallymessed them up that I see a lot
of people like that in thecomment sections of my videos.
Um, so I think trying to avoidsome of that fighting is a lot
(39:38):
of times a good thing, but onthe denominational level there's
obviously somewhat of acontroversy over should you stay
and fight or should you decideokay, no, the Bible tells us to
not have fellowship withunbelievers, and I can tell that
there's like a whole bunch ofunbelievers who are kind of
running the show here.
I'm not going to stay for 20years putting up a fight or get
(39:58):
out of you know, get out of thisgroup and do something
different and that that can be amuch more difficult question,
especially with people who youknow grandpa was in this church,
mom is.
Is there berries on the buriedbehind the church in the blood?
Yeah, and you know we've beenhere forever.
Um, then there's a lot ofpersonal questions that come in
(40:18):
into the whole question.
But you, you have to, you dohave to take a biblical look at
you know what is.
Does the bible have things tosay about those, those issues?
And a lot of times the questionultimately comes down to you
know, biblically, can I, can Ifollow what the bible says while
remaining, uh, in fellowshipwith the group of people who
(40:40):
will promote and even use churchfinances to to push things that
are completely opposite to whatI believe?
I think that's what normallythat's when it gets to the
breaking point and denominationsare splitting is when they say,
like you know, I I no longerfeel like I can fellowship with
you because our paths are sodifferent, that the church unity
between us is no longerpossible.
(41:00):
And, uh, I there's just not alot of good examples of where
those kind of things getreconciled easily.
Um, and if you can be, if ifthe two of you can be faithful
in your local churches withoutthe ecclesiastical joining
between those two churches, thenthen go be faithful in those
churches and don't have, youknow, spend the next 10 years of
your life fighting churchpolitics as opposed to, you know
(41:22):
, promoting the kingdom of godthat's a good answer, and are
there any other things that youwant to talk about before I know
our viewership?
Zack Johnson (41:32):
usually people make it to like the half hour 45
minutes so this is for thepeople who are left yeah, for
the people who like to stop,interesting about any other deep
passions that you, we didn'ttouch on.
Joshua Lindsey (41:45):
Well, I used to make origami, used to do that
quite a bit, so I could throwthat out there.
Uh, christian denominations iskind of eclipse that, um, I for
for a period of time while I wasin college, I actually worked
in a call center and while I wastaking calls I would, I would
fold origami stuff and I I stillhave some of my old creations.
Zack Johnson (42:00):
So for those of you who stuck around that wanted
to learn, something I feel likethat actually sort of connects
to attention to detail, intoresearch, I mean maybe that was
like they're, maybe I wasbuilding me in a certain way,
preparing for the, for thefuture.
Joshua Lindsey (42:12):
I didn't know it .
Zack Johnson (42:13):
And what's the easiest way to support your work
for anyone listening?
Joshua Lindsey (42:18):
Yeah, so if a person is, you know I wouldn't
ask anybody to support thechannel it doesn't spend a good
deal of time taking a look at itand saying that they really
support the vision of the idea.
My website is readytohardestcomand that's basically acts like a
patreon page, so anybody canjust sign up and make a small
monthly donation and I recognize, like the person who does, that
(42:41):
it's because they really likethis stuff, so it's not like
they're coming to try to buysomething from me every time.
But I do have there on mywebsite, um, the transcripts of
the videos with all thefootnotes.
So all the research that I didgoing to the websites and
statements of faith are linkedand a person can click through
and do their own research ineven more detail if they would
like.
And the videos are ad-freethere, which, by the way, if you
(43:01):
find yourself getting caught upin YouTube and you wanted to
just learn about denominationsand now you're off watching
silly cat videos or something,if you go to my website, you can
watch the videos there and youwon't get pulled anything else.
Zack Johnson (43:19):
no, no recommendations, no edits, so
that's maybe a little benefitfor for people who support the
channel.
Right, that's great, and I justwanted to give you a shout out
that I somebody sent you sent meone of your videos and my
background, my last name isjohnson, my wife's last name is
stoltzfus, and so there, andeven in my marriage, there was a
lot of like.
Well, we just like generationaldifferences across beliefs, and
I watched your video and I waslike this guy, somehow he
understands all these thingsthat I've been trying to figure
(43:40):
out over the last five years,and I think it was really,
really helpful to see somebodyput together a framework of
comparison and I'm just reallyexcited about your work and I'm
also excited that it just itgives people a way to think
about truth, and there's my oneof my favorite quotes is truth
(44:01):
is unkillable, and I think that,at the end of the day, all your
videos sort of will contributeto that yeah, I'm happy to hear
that.
Joshua Lindsey (44:09):
You know, when I got started there weren't a lot
of people watching and so I wasalways thinking about the
potential viewer in the futureand and what I would hope they
would walk away with when theywatch the vide
All right, it is October 9th and I'm here with
Joshua Lindsay from North Dakotaor Minnesota.
Joshua Lindsey (00:10):
Yeah, both.
I mean I go to work in NorthDakota but live in Minnesota, so
I'm bored of there.
Zack Johnson (00:15):
Great Well, joshua , I love I usually just read a
bio, but I couldn't find like asuccinct bio and yours online,
so I'm just going to let yougive us your like a five minute
bio and yours online, sure, soI'm just gonna let you give us
your like a five minute who youare, where you come from, some
of your passions, just so peopleknow who you are.
Joshua Lindsey (00:30):
I mean, I should probably do that at some point
is do a better buy one of theone of the reasons why you might
not have even found that isbecause my channel ready to
harvest, which I'll talk about,is from neutral point of view,
so I try not to generally havemy own stuff, to talk too much
about myself, because I'm justthe person who's providing the
information, but to give alittle bit more information
(00:52):
about who I am.
I was born in Washington StateWe'll go all the way back there
and I've actually been aroundquite a bit, mostly in the
Midwest, since then.
But I came in 2011 to Fargo,north Dakota, to go to Bible
college and then, after going toBible college there, in 2015, I
actually came on staff atMasters Baptist College in Fargo
(01:14):
, north Dakota and I teach someclasses there.
I am also the station managerof Christian radio station there
, having 88.7 radio, and thenalso do IT work for the church
and for the college, and one ofthe things I was asked to do is
to teach a one-week class onChristian denominations, and so
(01:35):
in doing that, I decided to makesome videos, and that's really
what set things off.
I put them online and that ledto where I am today making
videos about Christiandenominations on YouTube as
really one of the primary thingsthat I do and when I think
about what people think of me.
Obviously, the people that I'mclosest to think of me as the
(01:55):
guy that's at church, but mostof the world knows me from
YouTube and Christiandenominations.
Zack Johnson (02:02):
Okay, and you mentioned Ready to Harvest.
Can you just tell me a littlebit about Ready to Harvest and
what that is?
I know there's a website.
There's also a YouTube channel.
Can you just tell me a littlebit about that?
Joshua Lindsey (02:13):
Yeah, primarily a YouTube channel.
I did make a website where ifpeople want to support the
channel they can go there andwatch the videos without ads.
And also my videos are.
I do make transcripts, so allmy videos are scripted.
I make transcripts withfootnotes and stuff and I put
that on the website.
But where almost everybody isrunning into me is on YouTube
and there I make YouTube videoson Christian denominations.
(02:36):
Some of my videos are just onone Christian denomination.
That's kind of one of the bigthings that I enjoy working on
is studying a particulardenomination like the Lutheran
Church, missouri Synod orAnglican Church in North America
, and doing it from a neutralpoint of view.
So my goal is, when all is saidand done, if somebody watches
the video from that denomination, they'll say that that video
(02:58):
represents them fairly and thatthey like it and could even
recommend it.
In fact, for one denomination Iremember a pastor saying like
oh, this is a really goodoverview of our denomination.
I'm going to use this videowhen I bring on new staff to
show them what we're about, andso that's my idea, for
everything is to do it neutrally, about every other week that I
make a video on one denominationand then the other video on the
(03:18):
alternating week will beanything else.
So, maybe comparing twodenominations, I've made some
videos that are like quiz videoson denominations or talking
about something happening inreal time.
So I made several videos overthe last few years when the
United Methodist Church wassplitting in two.
Well, the UNC and a lot ofgroups were leaving and many of
(03:41):
them ended up going into theGlobal Methodist Church, so I
covered that issue primarily.
So there's some aspect ofdenomination news that I'll
cover every once in a while, butit's an endless stream of
material.
There's just a lot to talkabout and, honestly, not at
least at the level ofgranularity that I go into.
There's not really anybody elsewho's doing the same thing.
(04:02):
There's people who make videosjust on you know what do
Lutherans believe?
But to go into, okay, what'sthe difference between the
Lutheran Church, missouri Synodand North American Lutheran
Church and that kind of thing.
Most people aren't going tothat level of detail.
So I feel like it's providingsomething that really just
hasn't existed.
I always thought when I makevideos like my core audience is
(04:24):
probably ministers or people whoare involved in some way, you
know, actually running intomultiple denominations.
I don't know that that'sactually the reality, like a lot
of people just seem to bepeople who just find this topic
(04:45):
interesting and maybe they'veattended a couple different
churches in their life.
But I do think, like if I wassomebody who was trying to
minister in the city and my cityhad 10 other churches, where
would I go to try to be like,okay, so what else is around
here?
What do they believe?
And I thought like I'm going totry to be that resource where
they can find out about all thechurches in the area, and so far
it seems to be working.
The biggest complaint anybodywould have is that it can only
go so fast, right?
You know, uh, there's beenpeople been asking can you make
(05:07):
a video on this group?
For, you know, three, fouryears, and in this I'm making
videos every week, but I canonly do so much.
But, uh, that's good, I have alot of opportunity in the future
to continue to do the samething and then so, how do you do
your research?
Zack Johnson (05:19):
yeah, for your videos is it primarily,
primarily, internet-based.
Do you do any live interviewsin the churches?
Joshua Lindsey (05:26):
It is primarily internet-based.
I am almost always looking forentirely primary sources.
I don't use the handbook ofChristian denominations and
things like that that exist,because also denominations can
change sometimes pretty quickly.
That kind of stuff can get outof date.
(05:47):
So first place I'll go is seedo they have a statement of
faith or do they haveconfessions that they hold to,
and I'll read through all ofthose and I have a certain set
of things that I'm looking tofind out what they believe about
.
In my research I'll oftendiscover some other areas that I
don't look into.
For every denomination there'ssome things that really make
them stand out.
But then if I find, afterreading the Statement of Faith,
(06:09):
like there's nothing.
I can't find out what theybelieve about tithing or divorce
and remarriage, then I'll startdigging further.
Sometimes I've had to purchasee-books, or actual physical
books in some cases, and waitfor those to arrive in the mail
and read through those.
I never used to like ebooks.
I used to always readeverything on physical books.
But I have come around, youknow, like an ebook you can, you
(06:31):
know, copy and paste things ifthey're good and it's a big look
, both stuff uh, I'm a huge fanof ebooks, yeah yeah, it's.
It took me a little while butI've come around.
So I do.
I do ebooks, but somedenominations actually have put
out apps and, like you,subscribe to the app.
So I did that recently where Ihad to pay for like a monthly
subscription to the app and wasable to get information and
research there.
Uh, I've often ended up readingthrough, or at least skimming
(06:54):
through, the tables of contentsof like several years or decades
worth of a denominationsmagazine to see like, okay, if
they don't have it in theirstatement of faith, maybe
somebody brought it up in theirmagazine.
So I'll read through all ofthose.
Some denominations have likelists of resolutions that
they've had at conferences overthe years, and so I'll read
through the list of resolutionsWhenever I can.
I'll do targeted Googlesearches on their website.
(07:17):
If I still can't find it, I'lllook up local church
congregations within thedenomination and find a whole
list of those and then do atargeted Google search for
certain words on all of theirwebsites to see if they've ever
discussed the issue.
So it can be kind of complex,but it's kind of fun too.
It's like something.
Zack Johnson (07:34):
And do you do?
When you shop a video or youship out a video, do you do all
the editing and everything.
Joshua Lindsey (07:40):
It is a one man thing.
Nobody else touches my videosat all before I release them.
So it is a process.
I start by studying them andoften I'll do the research.
I'll make the video, I'll getthe script done, and then I
won't touch that for a month.
I'll research anothergeneration and then I'll have
that script done, and then Iwon't touch that for a while.
And then, once I've madeseveral that way, then I'll go
(08:03):
back and start making graphicsfor the video.
So I have the script, I'll makethe graph, and while I'm making
the graphics sometimes I'll belike, oh, I need to fix this.
One of the things that'sinteresting is because I do that
.
I, I make the video.
A lot of research really.
When I'm making the graphicsI'm reading the whole video
again.
So, like I, I'm like putting inmy own mind to remember it.
Then I record the video, I'mthe video.
(08:23):
So that's the third timegetting all the information.
Zack Johnson (08:25):
I know.
Joshua Lindsey (08:29):
I don't like scrolling text, like most
traditional teleprompter ideasare, but I do have a screen that
is next to my camera, and thenit's actually like a Word doc
set to a read mode, and I justtap on the keyboard and it'll
advance one page like a smallpage of text.
So then, after that though,after making the graphics and
then recording finally is theediting.
(08:50):
Well, not even finally theediting the whole video has to
be edited.
So I hear it again, and then,when it's done, I always and
this is a recommendation foranybody who makes content online
when you're done editing,always watch the video again.
Like watch it before things willbe messed up, there'll be
problems, there'll be a blankscreen for a while, and
sometimes this stuff even makesit through after I've watched it
.
But I've always, always,watched the video, so I end up
(09:12):
like, however long the video islike, I've seen it five times by
the time it's out there, on topof all the research it took to
make it.
Zack Johnson (09:19):
So, yeah, that that does take a lot of time to
do all that and and where areyou going to get at that?
Sometimes you change what yousaid throughout that process.
By the end you catch something.
Joshua Lindsey (09:29):
I think there's been a few times.
You know, you get to the pointwhere you know I've already made
the video, I've uploaded it,I've scheduled it, but I haven't
released it yet.
And then, you know, I justencounter something and I
realize, oh, I didn't say thatright, or like oh, I should have
mentioned this instead.
I had a video I made onChristian denominations that
observed Seventh-day Sabbath andI had a comparison video with
(09:53):
seven denominations.
And then I made another videoand it was another group that
did it.
The whole video is neverintending to be comprehensive,
of every group that does, but Iwas like, boy, I should really
put this other group in theretoo, right?
So I just, you know, redesignedthe whole thing and added
another group in there.
That took a lot of time I can'tdo that frequently because it
takes so much time to redosomething but I thought, you
know, I really ought to do that,but at least at the graphics
(10:15):
making stage of things, that'swhere I opted and say, oh, I
need to adjust this a little bit.
So there is some editing afterthe fact, that goes into
everything Got it.
Zack Johnson (10:23):
And then I'm just going to ask some trivia.
What are some of your mostpopular videos that you've made,
sure?
Joshua Lindsey (10:30):
My most popular video, I think right now is
called Eastern Christianityversus Western Christianity,
which is something I thought Iremember searching on YouTube.
I was like people talk aboutthis a lot, is there a video
like this?
And I don't think there wasanother video by that title at
the time, and there's alwaysbeen people, especially people
who are Catholic versus Orthodox.
(10:51):
That's always been somethingthat people are interested in.
So Eastern Christianity versusWestern Christianity takes at
least that but also adds to itthe question of Protestantism
and then a few other interestingthings like Eastern protestants
and western orthodox and such,and describes that whole issue.
Uh, maybe, obviously thethumbnail and the title is a big
thing to any video becomingespecially popular, but it also
(11:13):
has to be a topic that has broadappeal.
Um, like somebody might say well, if you become a really good
youtuber, you can make any videogo viral, and you can, as long
as you're willing to only makethe content that you know will
go viral.
But I don't want to do that.
So, like, if I make the video,um, you know I have one that
will be coming out eventually on, you know, christ sanctified
holy church, and my video iswhat is christ sanctified holy
(11:36):
church.
That video is not going to goviral.
You know most people don't know, they don't care, you know, and
that I'm okay with that.
Like I'm learning study, I'mlearning to learn it for myself
give information on a group thatreally nobody's talking about,
but every once in a while,because I've learned about these
very precise things aboutChristian denominations, now I
can make a really goodinformational, broader topic
(11:57):
video on something that maybe alot of people will click through
and I can give a lot of thatinformation I've learned from
these little groups and makethose videos interesting, which
makes people watch longer, ifpeople watch longer than YouTube
continues to recommend it,because it doesn't matter.
Ultimately, if you click on avideo, if you click away,
youtube will stop recommending.
If people aren't watching itLike cause.
Then they say oh, you know, youcould put whatever title and
(12:19):
thumbnail on the video, it couldjust be junk and and YouTube
doesn't want its viewers to togo away that fast.
So only if people watch thevideo a significant time will
youtube continue to recommend itand uh, so yeah, that that one
video on eastern christianityversus western is is the top one
.
One of my videos on the unitedmethodist split um, you know, is
(12:39):
also maybe number two up there.
I had a video that's lutheransbaptists.
It's comparing lutheransbaptists, methodists.
I forget exactly all.
There's like maybe number twoup there.
I had a video that's LutheransBaptists.
It's comparing LutheransBaptists, methodists.
I forget exactly.
There's like four groups andjust a straight up comparison of
four, which is pretty unusual.
Again, there's not a lot likethat on YouTube and that one did
really well for a while.
One of the first videos thatactually took off on my channel
(13:00):
and was for a period of timeprobably a year, was like, and
was for a period of timeprobably a year was just driving
my channel.
I made a video called Episcopalversus Anglican, which makes
people think because they'relike well, episcopalians are
Anglicans, right.
So that video and it wasactually a cut from a longer
video on a different topic andthat one did really well for a
while.
So it's somewhat predictable.
(13:20):
I often will tell my wife I'mlike this video is going to do
well.
This video, I said like it'sgoing to be, it's not going to
do super well, but that's okay.
I know what I'm going for andmost of the time I'm correct on
that.
I can tell which videos will dobetter and and I'm fine with
making ones that don't do better, because my goal is more than
just getting as many clicks aspossible.
It's, you know, getting theinformation out there about the
(13:43):
big groups, but also the smallones.
Zack Johnson (13:50):
Right, and then the average length of your
videos are like give or take anhour.
Joshua Lindsey (13:52):
I mean sure, I try to avoid an hour at this
point, so I think most of themare probably going to be between
15 minutes to 35 minutes orsomething like that minutes to
to 35 minutes or something likethat.
Um, I made a video a while backon the uh salvation army and
that video was over an hour longand I just remember like
(14:13):
recording it and it's like, oh,this is such a slog like with my
stuff that there's so manygraphics to make.
Um, and just sitting down andrecording for an hour long is
not a lot of fun either,especially when you're just
reading off a script and I waslike I need to stop this and
there's no, no one's going towant to watch this.
And just sitting down andrecording for an hour long is
not a lot of fun either,especially when you're just
reading off a script and I waslike I need to stop this and he
(14:33):
goes nope, no one's going towant to watch this video, it's
just too long.
And so I kind of committed atthat point all right, I'm going
to start, as opposed to alwaysjust reading off full quotes,
I'm going to try to put thequote on the screen and
highlight parts and stuff.
So I Try to cut things back, butsome videos.
You know, if I have a topicthat's really very in-depth and
you know if it takes an hour todo it, I'll do it in an hour.
But I do try to avoid being toolong and I have some videos
(14:56):
that are pretty quick too.
I had a series on Christiandenominations in two minutes.
I believe there's 60 videos inthat series.
I released them three at a timeand so those are just two
minutes for each video, got itand then.
Zack Johnson (15:07):
So you mentioned something earlier on about
presenting things from a neutralpoint of view.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout what that means to you,
and is that a vision you hadoriginally?
Joshua Lindsey (15:20):
Is it something you kind of decided when you
kind of more along the way askedto teach a class on Christian
denominations, I knew at leastthe starting point needs to be
neutral to some extent, like atleast fair.
I need to talk aboutdenominations and say here's
what they actually believe.
And you know, when I'm makingthat video, I'm researching it.
(15:41):
What am I looking for?
I'm looking for neutralinformation.
So it's like you know, there isa value in neutrality to be
able to find something you cantrust.
And then, even if later on Iwant to build on it and say, now
here's where these groups needto be corrected, or something
like that, I have to start bysomething I can trust that this
is what they actually say.
And so when I made those videos, I looked at the source and
looked at what thosedenominations themselves said.
(16:03):
But then I realized and Iactually realized before this
that there's just not that muchon YouTube about Christian
denominations, and certainly notfrom a neutral perspective.
A couple years ago I made avideo called Neutral Point of
View is Wrong, which is a catchytitle, and that one did do well
.
And what I say in that video isthat neutral point of view can
(16:27):
only answer certain questions.
Neutral point of view can onlyanswer certain questions, like,
if you're talking about a warand two sides are fighting over
it, you can describe why they'refighting, but you can't
describe who's right, becausethen you're no longer neutral,
you've now taken a side.
So the important, maybe themost important question who is
(16:48):
right is actually left out ofneutral point of view.
So, in that sense, if you'releaving off that, then you could
say, in some sense, neutralpoint of view is wrong.
Now, ultimately, I would say atthe end of the video is you
know, I choose to make thischannel from neutral point of
view anyway, but I recognizethat no person should be neutral
Like in your life.
You do have to make conclusionson these things, but there's a
(17:10):
value in us being able to cometogether and agree on the
parameters of the debate beforewe start.
You know, if we're going toargue about entire
sanctification, for example, Ishould be able to explain it and
you should be able to explainit.
We should be able to agree whatit is.
And then we can say all right,now, here's what I think is
wrong or here's what I think isright.
(17:31):
And too many times people aretrying to say you know, you
believe this, and the otherperson says no, no, no, I don't
believe that.
And then you spend the wholetime arguing trying to tell them
what they believe it's like.
Well, let's start by okay whatdo you believe?
All right, I think we've gotthat cleared.
Now we can argue why I thinkit's right or wrong, instead of
just continuing being wrappedaround that question of of what
(17:52):
they actually believe and sosome of the alternative
perspectives you could would itbe like a persuasive point of
view is sure that would be thesort of an alternative way to
make a video yeah, absolutely,and the the existence and the
fact that I make my channel fromneutral point of view is no
slam on anybody doing anythingdifferently, or even saying that
I won't necessarily at somepoint in the future make a
channel, that it's far moretraditional to just make a
(18:15):
channel that you know you'reyourself and and really, by
being neutral point of view, I'mnot myself on my channel in
that way right, I most peopledon't know very much about me
and that considered that's fine.
Uh, because the my channel isnot really in any way about me
and I've only said in maybe twoor three of my videos I've even
given my name, joshua.
(18:36):
I don't even for YouTubechannels they always say you
know, you want people to get toknow you, you know, introduce
yourself at every video andthings like that.
And I could do that and stillobviously be neutral.
But my thought is like I'm just, I, just I'm the narrator.
In fact I've had people commentbefore and I, you know I don't
know if they use the wordnarrator or something like that,
but you know, you can tell likeI'm just working for a rate of
(18:59):
harvest and just the guy thatreads stuff off or whatever.
But yeah, I do make, I do thewhole thing.
But it's not really about me,it's about the, the content that
I'm making, it about the groupsthat I'm discussing.
Zack Johnson (19:09):
Great, and then I know what was the title of the
talk you gave to yeah, so wewere talking about that.
Joshua Lindsey (19:16):
Content creation can be a good thing.
Yeah, the idea of being onYouTube and using it in the
right way.
Zack Johnson (19:24):
And what were some of the points you were trying
to make in the talks for thepeople who don't get a chance to
listen?
Joshua Lindsey (19:31):
trying to make in the talks for the people who
don't get a chance to listen.
Um well, there's so much onyoutube that, uh, what I see a
lot for christian contentcreators on youtube is they end
up getting caught up in thewhole like trying to get the
most clicks and things like that, and what that ends up doing is
, uh, you're not really theperson making the content.
At that point you're lettingwhatever is clickable, whatever
the audience wants or whateverwill make them click, even if
(19:53):
they want it or not.
You know, whatever will getthem stirred up be the thing
that drives your channel.
And so, for me, I've said youknow, I'm just going to make
things that I think areimportant and some of them will
do well and some of them won't.
So that's one of the dangers.
Of course, there's anotherthing.
If a person decides to makecontent on YouTube, is you have
to watch out about the pridefactor?
People can get proud.
I mean, that's not really adanger.
(20:14):
If your channel gets big, a lotof people kind of wish they
could have the opportunity to dothat, because a lot of people
think, oh, I can't be that hardand honestly, I'm sure there's a
lot.
You could call it luck orwhatever.
There's a lot of things thatwent into my channel that I
wasn't entirely in control of.
There's the algorithm, you know, and all those things.
But if a person does happen todo well, then it's like just
(20:37):
because you have a lot of peoplelistening to you doesn't mean
you're any worth hearing.
It doesn't mean your opinion isany more valuable than anybody
else's.
So you have to watch out forthose kinds of things.
It's easy I actually for a goodwhile when I got started.
It's so easy to just be caughtup in statistics.
Like I'm a statistically mindedguy.
I have some videos on mychannel about it and I could
just be obsessing about, likeyou know, okay, how did I do
(21:00):
today compared to last?
And YouTube makes that way tooeasy.
There's like all this complexstuff and here's all the videos
you released in the past yearand here's how they compare.
Here's what they did in thefirst 24 hours, you know, in the
past year, and here's how theycompared.
Here's what they did in thefirst 24 hours, you know.
Uh, here's the click-throughrates.
Here's the average viewduration.
You can get really just buriedin that.
I've I've finally learned tokind of move past that somewhat
and I can just not look at anyof those analytics for for weeks
(21:22):
and I'll be fine, um, but thatperson can just kind of let that
control them.
One thing that I think is apitfall and I talked about uh,
but that doesn't have to be andI've I've avoided it.
People talk a lot about burnouton youtube, about you know you,
just you finish making a videoand then the very next thing is
I must make another one like Imean, everybody's expecting it.
(21:43):
I've got to keep, especially ifyou have a schedule set for
yourself like there's no rest.
And for me, I work ahead oftime, so I make a video and I
schedule it to release at somepoint in the future and I work
until I have a big backlog.
So I actually have a couplemonths of content.
That's already.
And if I if I get.
I mean this is happy, like if Iget sick and I'm laying in bed
(22:04):
like I'm not both sick and alsostressing about like, oh, I
gotta like do it all pulling allnight or on saturday night or
something, to get a video ready.
I think that's terrible for forlike, mental health to do that
and, um, this is probably one ofthe reasons that people burn
out.
Uh, you know, I I enjoy goinghome, being with the family,
going on the bike ride with mykids, and I just I never let,
(22:28):
I've, I've, I've found a goodway to have those separate
domains of things.
Like, when I'm with my kids,I'm not thinking about my
YouTube channel.
Um, when I'm doing my other, myother work that I do and not
thinking about my YouTubechannel, you know, I have those
times and then when I do one andleave that, I switch onto the
other thing and I can work onthat, and that's a luxury only
(22:49):
afforded by the fact that Iactually have prepared ahead of
time, and so it's not like, well, this has to be done tomorrow
or it's all over.
So I do think it's good to makesure that you're not always
focused on on content creationor something like that right and
did you?
Zack Johnson (23:07):
I?
Do you have any advice onYouTube consumption versus
creation, on like see guidingprinciples for people to think
about where they're consumingtheir media?
Because I think it's a reallycommon thing that I hear among
people my true people in schoolis they go onto YouTube to do
(23:28):
something at night, let's justsay for a homework assignment.
It's two hours later.
They've literally just burnedtwo hours, whatever the
algorithm coming from them.
Do you have any guidingprinciples on how to use YouTube
in a I said maybe a healthy way, avoiding maybe some of the
stuff on there that probablyisn't worth people's time?
Yeah, you have to be one of thestuff on there that probably
(23:50):
isn't worth people's time yeah,you have to be.
Joshua Lindsey (23:52):
One of the things to be mindful of is
realize what these mediaplatforms, what their
motivations, right, and uh.
People have mentioned like well, you know, if you go to the
youtube search and say you justtype christian denominations,
like the first three resultswill be relevant and then after
that it's like it's just lookingat your home it's a bunch of
suggested content and thingslike that.
(24:13):
Why would you do that when theyknow you're looking for for
content on Christiandenominations?
And the reason is, themotivation behind YouTube is not
necessarily to provide whatyou're looking for.
If providing what you'relooking for makes you stay long
on YouTube, then they'll providewhat you're looking for.
But their motivation is keepyou on the site as long as
(24:33):
possible.
And so they've found and thetestimony of the people who end
up spending two hours on thereif they just found what they
were looking for, they'd bethrough there and out in 15, 20
minutes, right.
But YouTube knows, if theyrecommend all this other stuff,
that you'll stay longer andthat's their goal.
Longer staying on the site ismore ad revenue and so forth.
It's all their goals.
So if you're aware of that,then you can think of ways to
(24:56):
counter that, and especially nowwith things like YouTube Shorts
, it's a really easy way to burnup time.
People are flipping throughthese quick, fast videos With
those.
I think you see one.
You think, oh, that was funny,that was interesting.
If you, let's say, you spentone minute on a short, which is
really the longest they can be,and you did that for an hour,
that means you watch 60 piecesof content.
(25:16):
I would bet, though, if youtalk to a person after they
finished that hour and you said,okay, tell me how many of those
you can remember, like how manyof them can you actually call
out?
They would find, like even theone they watched three minutes
ago that was funny andinteresting.
They can't remember it becauseit's not something that's
lasting.
It's just that very fast,short-term waste of time and I
think that's what we have toultimately decide is like what
(25:39):
kind of things are a waste oftime, and what will I
consciously decide not to do, orat least find some way to limit
it?
I mean, at the extreme, you canget, uh, web browser extensions
and things that will give youtime limits.
You know, after 30 minutes onYouTube, it cuts you off, and
that's all the YouTube for today, even if they're easy to bypass
(25:59):
.
Often that's good enough Likeit cuts it, like you know you
could do it, but you set this upand so you know you can get
around it if you want to.
But you say, oh, that's good,that's a reminder, I'm going to
stop this.
But if a person can be evenmore mindful, then they should
have a goal going into socialmedia.
Why am I going in here insteadof this thing?
where it's just like click onthe icon and just what is it
(26:19):
going to feed me today?
Zack Johnson (26:20):
Well, it's become sort of like turning on the TV.
I mean not to speak poorlyabout people with TVs in there,
but it's like I'm going to turnthis off just to burn time.
Joshua Lindsey (26:32):
YouTube has been in the past, to some extent, a
way to be different than that,in that you're the person
choosing what you're watching,as opposed to the TV, where it's
like whatever's on, I'll justwatch.
But that is what has changedwith things like Shorts and
TikTok.
They directly feed yousomething that you never asked
for at all, and then you candecide to flip away, but then
(26:54):
you just get presented withsomething else that you never
asked for.
So I do think that there's adefinite parallel there, and
obviously it's not all thatsurprising that.
YouTube is actually in the TVbusiness now too as well.
Yeah, there can be somesimilarities there, I think.
I mean, obviously, televisionwas the time waster of the last
half century at least, and nowin the last 20 years, you know,
(27:16):
the Internet has kind of come toreplace it or just add on to it
as another time waster.
Certainly, there's a lot ofvalue that can be provided by
the Internet, but, as anypowerful tool is, it's going to
be used by people with alldifferent motivations.
Zack Johnson (27:30):
Right, and then this is just like a a quick
question.
You don't have to have theright answer sometimes when we
do.
We're a christian college and wehave we have to do marketing
because we're looking for people, sure do you?
Do you feel like there's any?
Are there any ethical concernsabout using a platform like
YouTube that has a ton of otherquestionable content out there
(27:55):
to mix in your content into thatalgorithm?
Um, is there anything, arethere any ethical concerns that
we should be thinking about?
It's just like even anybusinesses trying to use the
platform, yeah, for probablygood motivations, and or are
there any like helpfulprinciples that you've thought
about to sort of work your wayaround that?
Joshua Lindsey (28:15):
yeah, you think about, like um, there's people
who, to kind of use an analogy,there's people who say, um, well
, we, we shouldn't use palm oil,and so then they use a
different kind of oil.
And then somebody says, well,you know that oil is actually
doing this and and you, you canessentially find an ethical
problem anywhere if you lookhard enough.
So the question is is balancing, like, how far are you willing
to go?
(28:36):
I mean obviously just the mostbase level.
If you're say, if you'reactually paying for
advertisement on YouTube, thenyou're putting money in the
pockets of YouTube and thepockets of Google, and I'm sure
we can find things that thosecompanies have donated to that
we disagree with.
So the question is can you usetheir services?
But, of course, by even watchingthe videos, you're supporting
(28:57):
that ad revenue stream, and soyou know at the end ultimately
you could try to make, and somepeople would make the argument
you can just go all the way andultimately say you have to stay
off the internet altogether.
Obviously I've not come to thatconclusion, but so, if you don't
take everything to its extreme,you do have the question okay,
(29:18):
is my ad going to be placed infront of things?
There are ways you can limit adplacement on YouTube, Like
there you can block certainchannels, like my ads will not
play there, but let's say, notadvertising.
Just, you know, posting as achannel and maybe their ads, but
they're not playing in front ofsomething else.
Well, you know, would you bewilling to put up a billboard,
(29:39):
you know, in your, in your localtown and and you guess what you
know, it might be on the otherside of the billboard, you know,
and what are the otherbillboards yeah, youtube is, I
still in a lot of ways, kind ofa public forum where everybody
is talking and um.
By choosing not to talk there,you're not lessening anybody
else's voice, generally loweringyour own um.
By talking, you're notapproving anybody else's voice
(30:01):
either.
You're simply making your ownbird.
So I do think there's anargument to be said, um that
there's a value in speaking onplatforms, even where people
have all kinds of things thatthey say uh.
I think there can also be thecase to be made where you know
there are probably platformsthat'd be better for us to stay
away from, just like there areplaces we'd stay away from, and
(30:21):
also, if alternatives come alongin the future that we say these
are better, then maybe it'stime to be willing to jump ship
and not get so committed to onegroup.
Zack Johnson (30:29):
Well, I just wanted to affirm that I'm in the
camp, that it's an.
There's an opportunity here toleverage the platform and I've
heard so many people that I bumpinto consume sort of just
sermons from, yeah, sermons onyoutube, which is a huge, yeah,
huge tool to be able to befeeding ourselves really.
(30:52):
But there.
Joshua Lindsey (30:54):
There's a massive number there.
There's so many churches todaythat stream all their content
onto YouTube, and so I, and theneven your videos.
Zack Johnson (31:01):
I've learned a lot from them, and so I just wanted
to thank you for a lot of thework you put in there.
Praise the Lord, and one of thethings that the other questions
I was going to get at is youknow this is changing topics a
little bit sure.
Do you know how manydenominations give or take in
christianity exists today?
Joshua Lindsey (31:20):
yeah, so I have a video on my channel called I
think it's called are therereally 45 000 christians?
Because there was a, uh, theworld christian encyclopedia
published that number a whileback and and that number, which
at this point it's beensomething that grows each year.
So you know there's people havesaid 35 000, 45 000, 65 000,
(31:41):
etc, etc.
But, um, that number came fromtaking essentially and every,
every, every denominationalgroup, and if they're in
multiple countries, then eachcountry is also considered a
separate denomination and so Ithink that number is is a bit
inflated.
Ultimately, there does becomethe question of what is a
denomination, because there's alot of churches that kind of are
(32:02):
one off, they're just like onechurch are they their own?
denominations.
Yeah, exactly like is each.
You know, each separatemovement, a denomination um and
even if there are a lot you know, when does it really start to
matter?
Like you know, the denominationof two churches over there, okay
, but like, should we reallycount that as another option in
the whole denominational sphere?
(32:23):
So if you look at the 2020 USReligion Census, they basically
had anything I would considernotable for united states
denominations and, as I recalltheir spreadsheet that gives
like the count of congregationsand adherence is maybe 400 or so
(32:44):
.
That would be like notable inthe us.
There are some other groupsthat are smaller than that.
Um, but if you're just going tocount everybody and count every
place across the world andstuff, it's an uncountable
number for sure.
I mean, like it's, it's it, itexists, the number exists and
god knows what it is, but, uh,there's not some central place
where they're all reporting tothat.
Zack Johnson (33:03):
We could get it and I guess my follow-up
question should we that there's,that you're not.
This is a hard question.
Should we be burdened by thegrowing number of denominations,
or is this something that someof us should be thinking about?
Hey, how do we?
How do we prevent this growingnumber?
Or is it okay?
(33:24):
Okay and natural?
Joshua Lindsey (33:26):
that's sort of the context of christianity each
each group has a different takeon that idea, because in some
Christian denominations the veryidea of schism, or separating,
breaking apart, is viewedextremely negative.
In others it's almost a regularoccurrence.
So if you look at, for example,presbyterians, hardly a year
(33:49):
goes by without anotherPresbyterian denomination
forming.
A year goes by without anotherPresbyterian denomination
forming.
And so if your denomination wasformed by splitting off,
there's inherently someacceptance that there can be a
right time for that.
Like you know, if the groupthat you're a part of went
liberal and you are stillconservative and you don't want
to fellowship with them, thenyou break away and that's what
(34:10):
they've decided to do.
You break away and that's whatthey've decided to do.
So, uh, I don't know if I canneutrally answer that question,
uh, but certainly some groupswould say like, no, like you're
always.
If, uh, if a group viewsthemselves as requiring a
necessity of apostolicsuccession, then if you don't at
least take a bishop with you,then there's a serious problem,
(34:31):
right in their view.
But there is the question Ithink that often comes up in
those discussions is well, isn'tit somewhat problematic when
you look at Christianity andnobody can agree on everything
you know?
Is there a problem.
Is there something wrong withChristianity that the Christians
can't get along?
More recently, I've seen somekind of apologetic in the
(34:51):
opposite direction, where peoplesay well, actually, the
abundance of Christiandenominations is a good thing.
It means people at least careabout theology, as opposed to
just like let's all just betogether and in the same church
when we all disagree on certainissues.
I think, ultimately, what itpoints to is people can justify
their beliefs regardless.
(35:12):
You can find a way to make thebible say what you want in one
way or the other, um, and ofcourse, everybody's gonna have
to do their own research to seewhich people are doing doing so
rightfully and which people aretrying to twist the scriptures
to match what they say.
Um, but I don't think that thechristian denominations, the
(35:32):
massive christian denominations,disproves christianity.
I think it's actuallyconsistent with christianity and
that christianity doesn't claimpeople are perfect.
They're going to follow thetruth.
In fact, just at the time thatchrist was around and his
apostles in the new testament,you already hear about people
who are, you know, leaving theright path and teaching their
own doctrines and then.
So it was immediatelyrecognized that there was going
(35:53):
to be false prophets, falsechrist and such.
So the abundance of christiandenominations is something that
you could almost say wasinevitable, um, and it shouldn't
be used, I don't think,ultimately, by itself, as some
kind of disproof of the truth ofthe christian message, right, I
think I think it's a.
Zack Johnson (36:12):
It's an interesting question because
sort of in my mid 20s is when Istarted thinking it was
important to pay attention todifferences across churches
because I think you said it wayearly on eventually we're gonna
have to make decisions forourselves about what we believe
and, and with like church splitsgoing on about key issues, it's
(36:38):
hard for me to know what.
What advice to give, alwaysabout, even when people are in a
, in a congregation that's goingthrough some sort of
disagreement.
Do you stay, do you go?
Is the growing number ofdenominations okay?
Do you have any advice to giveto people in sort of wrestling
with?
If they haven't, aren't amember of a denomination, don't
(37:02):
feel at home, are a little bitnomadic?
How do they go about makingdecisions If a church is going
through a hard time?
What's sort of the guidingprinciples on when to rally
behind the schism versus not?
It is a hard group of questions.
Joshua Lindsey (37:23):
Yes, but they are some of the more difficult
questions.
In the field of denomination.
I'll try to do my best toremember some of the things that
you've said there.
But I mean, there's quite a bitof a difference between, like,
a local congregation splittingand a whole denomination
splitting.
Let's take the congregationalaspect of things.
(37:43):
I think there's, depending onthe polity of a denomination,
these things may be vieweddifferently.
But within a congregationthat's dividing, I think most
people recognize, at least theywould say, that the church is
the people right.
And so ultimately, if thischurch has been founded on a
certain set of principles, ifyou're the one who's different,
(38:07):
I think it's generally a littledishonest to try to change that
group, to try to become like you.
They formed under thisunderstanding of Christianity.
Hey, if you don't like that, gostart something else or go find
somebody else who does it, asopposed to trying to twist them
into that.
That becomes problematicbecause occasionally it will
happen where somebody will comealong and be a minister at a
(38:29):
church who tries to change thatchurch and then ultimately,
instead of following that advice, where, if they followed my
position, to decide to leavebecause they're different now,
they're forcing everybody elsewho's comfortable in this church
teaching their theology toleave instead, and that's where
it becomes much more difficult.
If the polity structure doesn'tallow it, there's really just
(38:52):
not much way as far as to fight,like if in the end the
authority comes down to a boardwithin the church.
Then if there's no way that youcan find things being
reconciled, I'd say cut yourlosses.
You know, personalrelationships probably aren't
worth ruining to just fight andultimately lose the battle
anyway and go find someplacewhere you can serve God.
There's so much damage thathappens in church and
(39:15):
denomination splits individually.
There's so many people who'vebeen hurt from those kind of
things and just either pushedout of christianity altogether
or really got a sour taste abouta denomination that otherwise
they don't disagree with per se,but just the events that
happened in it have reallymessed them up that I see a lot
of people like that in thecomment sections of my videos.
Um, so I think trying to avoidsome of that fighting is a lot
(39:38):
of times a good thing, but onthe denominational level there's
obviously somewhat of acontroversy over should you stay
and fight or should you decideokay, no, the Bible tells us to
not have fellowship withunbelievers, and I can tell that
there's like a whole bunch ofunbelievers who are kind of
running the show here.
I'm not going to stay for 20years putting up a fight or get
(39:58):
out of you know, get out of thisgroup and do something
different and that that can be amuch more difficult question,
especially with people who youknow grandpa was in this church,
mom is.
Is there berries on the buriedbehind the church in the blood?
Yeah, and you know we've beenhere forever.
Um, then there's a lot ofpersonal questions that come in
(40:18):
into the whole question.
But you, you have to, you dohave to take a biblical look at
you know what is.
Does the bible have things tosay about those, those issues?
And a lot of times the questionultimately comes down to you
know, biblically, can I, can Ifollow what the bible says while
remaining, uh, in fellowshipwith the group of people who
(40:40):
will promote and even use churchfinances to to push things that
are completely opposite to whatI believe?
I think that's what normallythat's when it gets to the
breaking point and denominationsare splitting is when they say,
like you know, I I no longerfeel like I can fellowship with
you because our paths are sodifferent, that the church unity
between us is no longerpossible.
(41:00):
And, uh, I there's just not alot of good examples of where
those kind of things getreconciled easily.
Um, and if you can be, if ifthe two of you can be faithful
in your local churches withoutthe ecclesiastical joining
between those two churches, thenthen go be faithful in those
churches and don't have, youknow, spend the next 10 years of
your life fighting churchpolitics as opposed to, you know
(41:22):
, promoting the kingdom of godthat's a good answer, and are
there any other things that youwant to talk about before I know
our viewership?
Zack Johnson (41:32):
usually people make it to like the half hour 45
minutes so this is for thepeople who are left yeah, for
the people who like to stop,interesting about any other deep
passions that you, we didn'ttouch on.
Joshua Lindsey (41:45):
Well, I used to make origami, used to do that
quite a bit, so I could throwthat out there.
Uh, christian denominations iskind of eclipse that, um, I for
for a period of time while I wasin college, I actually worked
in a call center and while I wastaking calls I would, I would
fold origami stuff and I I stillhave some of my old creations.
Zack Johnson (42:00):
So for those of you who stuck around that wanted
to learn, something I feel likethat actually sort of connects
to attention to detail, intoresearch, I mean maybe that was
like they're, maybe I wasbuilding me in a certain way,
preparing for the, for thefuture.
Joshua Lindsey (42:12):
I didn't know it .
Zack Johnson (42:13):
And what's the easiest way to support your work
for anyone listening?
Joshua Lindsey (42:18):
Yeah, so if a person is, you know I wouldn't
ask anybody to support thechannel it doesn't spend a good
deal of time taking a look at itand saying that they really
support the vision of the idea.
My website is readytohardestcomand that's basically acts like a
patreon page, so anybody canjust sign up and make a small
monthly donation and I recognize, like the person who does, that
(42:41):
it's because they really likethis stuff, so it's not like
they're coming to try to buysomething from me every time.
But I do have there on mywebsite, um, the transcripts of
the videos with all thefootnotes.
So all the research that I didgoing to the websites and
statements of faith are linkedand a person can click through
and do their own research ineven more detail if they would
like.
And the videos are ad-freethere, which, by the way, if you
(43:01):
find yourself getting caught upin YouTube and you wanted to
just learn about denominationsand now you're off watching
silly cat videos or something,if you go to my website, you can
watch the videos there and youwon't get pulled anything else.
Zack Johnson (43:19):
no, no recommendations, no edits, so
that's maybe a little benefitfor for people who support the
channel.
Right, that's great, and I justwanted to give you a shout out
that I somebody sent you sent meone of your videos and my
background, my last name isjohnson, my wife's last name is
stoltzfus, and so there, andeven in my marriage, there was a
lot of like.
Well, we just like generationaldifferences across beliefs, and
I watched your video and I waslike this guy, somehow he
understands all these thingsthat I've been trying to figure
(43:40):
out over the last five years,and I think it was really,
really helpful to see somebodyput together a framework of
comparison and I'm just reallyexcited about your work and I'm
also excited that it just itgives people a way to think
about truth, and there's my oneof my favorite quotes is truth
(44:01):
is unkillable, and I think that,at the end of the day, all your
videos sort of will contributeto that yeah, I'm happy to hear
that.
Joshua Lindsey (44:09):
You know, when I got started there weren't a lot
of people watching and so I wasalways thinking about the
potential viewer in the futureand and what I would hope they
would walk away with when theywatch the vide
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