August 29, 2023 • 31 mins
Imagine learning leadership from the rather unusual perspective of a tour guide. That's the fascinating journey of our guest today, Jo Zulaica. A seasoned leadership coach, Jo started her career as a tour guide on luxury, active travel trips. Through navigating people in vulnerable and uncomfortable situations, Jo discovered that authenticity and honesty were the key to effective leadership. Today, she imparts these valuable insights to her clients, helping them find their own authentic leadership voices.
In our conversation, we explore Jo's unique career path, and how she managed challenging dynamics as a tour guide – from handling disappointed customers to de-escalating conflicts. Jo's story is a powerful testament to the role of authenticity and vulnerability in leadership. So, prepare to be inspired as we unravel the less-talked-about aspects of leadership and delve into how you too, can lead from a place of truth and vulnerability. Don't miss out on this riveting discussion with the wonderful Jo Zulaica.
This is a show where ideas come together. The guest statements expressed on The Savvy Communicator Podcast are their own and not necessarily the views of The Savvy Communicator.
Thanks for joining us! Become part of the conversation at www.savvycommunicator.com, and follow me on social media: my handle is @savvycommunicator.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi and welcome to the Savvy Communicator podcast.
I'm your host, amy Flanagan.
Today we're talking aboutleadership.
Are you brave enough to becomeauthentic?
Today we have a very excitingguest.
Her name is Jo Zuleika and sheis a leadership coach and
(00:21):
consultant.
Has trained over 5,000 peoplein leadership techniques over
the course of her career and itall started from her humble
beginnings as a tour guide.
Jo, welcome to the show, reallyglad to have you here.
So that's true, you started asa tour guide.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yes, indeed.
So straight out of college,when everybody else was going to
grad school, I decided that Iwas going to be a tour guide.
I wanted to travel, and thiswas back in the late 80s, dating
myself, and I didn't know howto do it.
I didn't know any way to do itother than being a flight
attendant, which just didn'tsound intriguing to me until I
(00:59):
found an emerging industry ofactive travel.
So I got a job as a tour guide,as a tour leader for hiking,
biking and active trips allaround the world, and I ended up
taking that further than I everthought I would go.
I thought maybe it'd be one ofthose gap year type things.
(01:21):
you know, a lark to do whenyou're still figuring out your
life, but it actually became mylife.
I worked as a tour guide forover 17 years, full time.
I ended up meeting and marryingmy husband.
That way, I became an executivefor the company and I developed
all of these leadershiptechniques focused on what I
learned from leading people ontrips on luxury, active travel
(01:45):
trips.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Wow, that's fantastic .
You think of tour guides.
You don't think of it as beinga long term career, right, sort
of like you're on vacation.
And it sort of feels likethey're on vacation to.
You know that they must beseeing everything for the first
time, even if they know about it.
Oh, that's really cool.
What places did you go to?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, so.
So I ended up starting at thiscompany right when it was about
to explode, and so as thecompany was growing, I got to go
to all the new destinationsthat the company was going to.
So it started off as thisactive travel company in the
West in the US West, and so Iwas in, you know, grand Canyon
National Park and Oregon Coastand Yellowstone and some of our
(02:30):
beautiful natural wild areas inthe domestic US, and then I got
to go to Hawaii and then I gotto go to New Zealand and then I
went to.
China and Bali and Costa Ricaand Norway and places all over
the world that I just neverthought I would have the
opportunity to go.
So it was quite a ride.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So when you decided to be a tour guide, did you know
that it was going to be anincredible opportunity for
communications training, or wasthat something that you realized
along the way?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Oh, it was definitely something I realized along the
way.
So when I started with thecompany, it was new.
We didn't have a trainingprogram.
And so I became kind of a seniortour leader that then mentored
others and organically developeda training program in-house for
this company that's now like a$250 million annual business.
So it was all sort of you knowhomegrown just me grassroots
(03:26):
figuring it out, telling,teaching and telling based on my
wits and my experience.
So I had no idea that it wouldbe a vehicle for me to develop
or teach leadership.
It just happened.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Wow, $250 million, and some of that's due to you
probably.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Well, I'd love to think so.
I've since retired from workingin corporate and now I work
solely for myself as aconsultant and a coach to help
other people find theirauthentic leadership, because I
think what I learned from thatperiod is that leadership is not
something that you impose uponyou.
It's not like a robe that youwear.
(04:02):
It's almost like I mean to besort of facetious.
It's like disrobing yourself.
It's like becoming you andbeing seen as you authentically.
And so that's what I'm allabout is helping people find
their authentic leadership voiceby being more who they are
rather than trying to becomesome you know ideal of what they
(04:25):
think leadership should be,which is not the way to go about
leading yourself or anyone else.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Oh, that's just fascinating, because that was my
initial instinct.
I was thinking okay, leadership, I have to be somebody
different, I have to be somebodybetter than who I am, because
I'm standing up there and I usedto work at a medical school and
I managed a team of about 10people, but I felt that all the
(04:52):
time I was like, well, I'masking them to do these things,
I must be doing them better, Imust be the one who's, you know,
always sort of ahead of thegame.
And so to think about authenticleadership, that's a really
cool term.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah Well, we don't resonate with people who are
impervious, with people who areperfectly perfect.
They make us feel inadequate,and by trying to be that way,
we're also inadequate.
We end up feeling like we'reconstantly chasing the devil on
our shoulder.
That says not good enough,stand up straighter, be
(05:29):
different, be better, be more,and it's just this mayhem that
goes on of everyone trying to besome version of themselves.
It's not really true.
So in in my, you know, line ofwork, we were taking people into
vulnerable experiences likeriding a bike in China.
And you know people would haveall of these ideas about fitness
(05:53):
, about body image, aboutprowess, like am I strong enough
, am I good enough?
And then we would be in theseuncomfortable situations where
we didn't speak the language orwe didn't know where we were
going, and so there'svulnerability everywhere, and
the only way to lead peoplethrough that is just to be
honest and say look like I'veonly been here once before, I
(06:15):
can't even go into thisterritory without a guide.
So I would even have to behonest about my inadequacy as
like the supreme leader and justkind of pull back the curtain
and say, but I'm here with youand I know what to do, and I got
granola bars, we're gonnafigure it out, and that's.
That would engender a lot moreof a spirit of participation
(06:37):
than if I was really challengingpeople to do some death defying
thing that I could do perfectly, but they needed to figure out.
You know, that's just not.
It's not a way to encourageloyalty or eager participation
or fun.
Really it's.
It was supposed to be fun,right?
We're on vacation, so yeah,that was that was a big part of
(06:58):
it.
I'll tell you what to Amy.
I'd started to interrupt myselfor you on this one, but when we
talk about that.
A big part of who we, how welead, is not actually being the
the person who is always havingall the answers.
That actually asking otherpeople to participate makes the
(07:21):
whole so much better.
It makes people bring who theyare to the table and that just
levels up the entire experienceor conversation for everyone.
So even if you don't know whatto do, you're not the only one.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Wow, okay, I get that .
That resonates with me.
It really does, even thoughI've never done anything for
authentic leadership.
But I see that, starting from aplace of vulnerability, even
though you're not it's notverbal communication that
probably does, yeah, do a lot tocommunicate simply the fact
(07:59):
that you're there, you're likethem, but you're going to guide
everybody through it, yeah, soI'll tell you what.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
the people who burn out at that job, at that type of
job, are the people who pretendharder, people who are really
trying hard to appear like theyknow everything, because that
certainly is a thing in tourleaderdom is that you want to
know all the answers.
There are people that want tolearn all the flora and fauna,
be able to have all the answersabout the knowledge of the area
they want to be.
They never want to be caughtoff guard.
(08:29):
That's the way that they.
They feel safe in that role andwith that title.
But they burn out becausethey're exhausted at the end of
a tour because they've beenhustling so hard to appear
perfectly perfect or smarterthan smart.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
That's so interesting and I can see that too, just
from a point of I worked as aprofessional actor for about 15
years, really, and yes so, andso much of the training,
especially when you start, isdesigned to teach you to break
down those barriers.
So that you can show that sameamount of vulnerability.
That's really what puts peoplein.
(09:08):
But the reason why there are somany theater games and
techniques and rehearsals andtechnical rehearsals is to try
to get that authenticity across.
So it seems like you must havehad a lot of those same
instincts as you know aprofessional actor would have.
(09:29):
Yeah, simply because you knowit's the same thing.
You're up on a stage.
Yeah, you're up on a stage,everybody's watching, and you
have to lead them where to go.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
You know what's cool about that, amy?
It's like so there's two things.
I don't want to sell out that.
There's another term that Iwould use all the time when I
was training new tour guides,which is follow me leadership.
Like you do have to post up assomebody that other people will
feel comfortable following, soyou do actually have to master
some sense of like I've got this, I know what to do, you can
(10:03):
trust me, you can follow me,even if I don't know all the
names of all the plants or Iknow exactly if it's a left or a
right at that intersection,like.
So there's that duality, rightOf being absolutely commanding
and authoritative in your ownskin, but also willing to say
I'm not quite sure about thisparticular thing.
So, like an actor on the stage,I think there are moments where
(10:27):
that individual holds yourattention, even when they
themselves might not exactlyknow where they're going to go
next.
They have the confidence to bein that spot of discovery Right,
and that's what makes it sointeresting for an actor or for
a career tour guide.
Is that that sweet spot, notthe like trying to look like you
(10:50):
know I'm super duper and I wantto get like the most sterling
reviews and no one will ever sayanything negative about
anything about me.
Like that's not a way to berelatable.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's so true.
So for people in the audiencelike me who have never heard the
term authentic leadershipbefore and maybe want to take
steps towards that, what's thefirst thing that you would
recommend?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
other than to sign up and take courses with you.
No, no, no, no.
It's to know at least a littlebit about who you are Like.
Here's what I know from havingtraveled the world and like sat
with some of the mostinteresting people that we've
never heard of.
Like think about some weaver ina Vietnamese village that takes
(11:38):
silk yarn and makes theseamazing tapestries, and what
makes her so fascinating.
I don't share language with her.
I have like zero in common withher other than probably we both
have beating hearts, but Idon't understand her life story.
I don't eat her food, I don'tlive in her village, and like
(11:59):
for her to imagine what I did tocome and visit her would blow
her mind right.
What makes people fascinating,what makes people so compelling
and their authenticity isknowing what they're good at,
knowing what they care about,and so through an interpreter
you could learn about, like whythis woman does what she does,
or why she's good at, or whatshe thinks about when she does
(12:21):
it, and that's what's authentic,right, like she's not trying to
be anything other than exactlywhat she is or what she cares
about, or what she does so well,like her craft so well.
I would be coaching people allthe time when they were becoming
tour leaders or just leaders inany industry is to just use who
(12:42):
you are Like.
If you're a brilliant linguist,if you're really good with
terms of phrase and metaphor,then you should be speaking, you
should be writing, you shouldbe communicating with words.
But if that's not your jam,don't try to be that.
Don't try to look like you'relike some orator.
If that makes you extremelynervous.
(13:02):
Go do what you're good at.
Teach what you know, be in yourzone of genius.
So I think the very first thingis knowing what your brilliant
skill set is, what you're reallygood at, what you love to do.
That's your authenticity,that's your like.
Putting your finger in thelight socket, that's it right
there.
That's helpful.
(13:23):
I don't know if that would behelpful?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yes, it's very helpful.
No, the next question that Iwanted to ask was what was that
process like for you?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Oh, good question, I think.
Well, I'm a junkie for personaldevelopment, so I probably have
done all the assessments youknow to know who I am and what
makes me tick and all that typeof thing.
I think in the course of that Ijust knew like I'm an extrovert
, I'm a connector, I like beinginspired and in inspiration, and
(13:58):
when you know those things, itdoesn't matter exactly what you
choose to do.
You can be a mom, you could beartist lover, you can be an
adventurer.
You just express those thingsin whatever arena you end up
choosing.
And so that's probably how Idid.
It is through self awareness,right, Like all those
(14:21):
assessments, I just came to knowwhat my operating system is,
how I run my how I like to be,how I can only be, and letting
that be how I am in anycircumstance.
You know, my parents alwaysthought I was going to give up
this true guide thing and be a,you know, a stand up human and
(14:41):
go back to grad school and get aquote unquote real job, capital
R, capital J, right.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
But it didn't matter if I did that, that I could do
that in my way or I could staywhere I was and become the
version of me that would bethere, which was starting to
create hiring and training andmentoring and managing models
for that population and thenexpanding and exploding from
what I'm good at in that realm.
(15:09):
So the circumstance didn'tmatter.
It was how I got to be and Ijust knew what turned me on.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I think you're right.
I know it was certainly myparents are listening, sorry,
but they had the same desire.
They want you to be secure,they want you to be okay, they
want you to have healthinsurance.
And so a lot of times we had tohave that discussion Like, is
it worth it to take this lowpaying job?
(15:38):
That's what you want to do Interms of?
Couldn't you find somethingthat you almost like to do that
has health insurance?
Yeah, right.
And I think you go through alot of questioning and you ask
yourself is that okay?
Is what I'm doing okay?
Because I love it so much.
(15:59):
We're gonna take a quick break.
We're with Joe Zuleika, who isa incredible once tour guide,
now leadership coach andconsultant, having trained over
5,000 people in our lifetime,and we're talking about
communication and authenticleadership and how you can bring
that to you.
We'll be right back.
Welcome back to the show Again.
(16:31):
We're here with Joe Zuleika andJoe, I am just dying to know
some of the nitty gritty detailsof when you were a tour guide.
It must have been a crashcourse, a crash masterclass,
I'll say, in communication andlearning how to deal with groups
of people who might not befeeling so happy at the moment.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
So tell me a little bit about that.
Yeah, I think that you're right.
I mean, travel can bring somany unexpected circumstances
and many of them can beundesired, certainly, and when
we're disappointed, we're not atour best, and so I've seen a
lot of disappointed people in mylifetime, people that I've
(17:16):
depended on for my livelihood asa tour guide.
It's definitely like agratuity-based culture, so you
really do wanna please people,you want them to be happy, give
you a good review and hopefullygive you a nice gratuity.
So I've danced that dancebetween when people are
disappointed and how you handlethem.
How do you master that?
How do you help resolveconflict, especially when you
(17:39):
can't control the weather, orthat dinner's gonna be an hour
and a half late or that there'snot enough elephants to ride in
Thailand, when you're on yourelephant riding excursion, right
, oh my God, shhh.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I could say, that being a big disappointment.
It was like I'm here.
Why isn't the elephant?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
here Shhh.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Hahaha.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Well, you know, what you end up doing is you
sacrifice, because my husband, Iended up marrying my co-tour
guide which is a whole otherpodcast and I ended up hiking
behind 14 elephants that day,and that was not very pretty,
but because we had to give upour elephant, because we had to
discount it.
So, you know, sometimes youjust get generous to help solve
(18:21):
the problem.
But I do actually have sometips that I've learned that
maybe are humorous but actuallymight serve.
People are better, they'reeasier to talk to when they're
well fed and when they're wellslept and when they're
caffeinated.
So, I kind of developed thisrule that I often avoided making
(18:45):
people talk to me when I knewthey weren't at their best.
So this looks like me surfingaround the breakfast room 35
minutes after they've beenseated and got their cup of
coffee and have some food ontheir plate, not before that,
when they're agitated andirritable.
Because, there are times youdon't want to insert yourself in
(19:05):
a process where you can'tcontrol the outcome.
So I can't control how fast thecoffee's gonna come, but I can
control when I come and say goodmorning.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And so I come and say good morning after they have
their cup of coffee.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I also don't talk to people between three and five PM
.
This is not a rule in my reallife now, but when they were
getting off a bicycle or off ahike, that's not the golden hour
.
That's not the time that youwanna relate with people.
They're hot, they're tired,they're sweaty, they haven't
checked into their hotel room.
You just kind of let them be.
So there's some simple tacticsof just recognizing sort of the
(19:42):
ebb and flow of when humans areat their best and meeting them
in those moments.
But there's also ways that howcan you help people get up to
that baseline.
So I mean, some of the simplethings are.
An easy trick for a tour guideis always to have something cold
and sweet in your backpack.
(20:04):
You're always popular when youhave frozen strawberries at the
summit of a mountain.
You're always popular whenyou've got ice water.
You're always popular whenyou're throwing out frozen otter
pops from the roof of a 15passenger van and 100 degree
weather, right, wow.
So make people happy with.
Sometimes it's just we'reanimals, we need things right.
(20:27):
But here's the other thingthose are sort of facetious, but
true.
There are other things that Ibelieve with my whole heart,
that I teach until I can't stoptalking about.
It is how you actually can helpdeescalate some conflict that
someone's feeling through areally, really simple tactic,
(20:49):
and it is by usingacknowledgement.
It's by verbally acknowledgingthe frustration or feeling that
another person is expressing toyou.
And this is the thing that Ifeel is so often glossed over in
many conflict resolution modelsor trainings, where we think
(21:14):
that we're understanding that,but if you're not actually
verbally saying to someone Iacknowledge that this is not up
to standard.
I acknowledge that this isdisappointing.
I understand that this isn'twhat you expected.
I get it that you're frustratedwhen we say that we de-escalate
(21:36):
the rising ire in anyonebecause they know that we've
received what they're trying toexpress to us, and when you
don't do that, they just feellike they have to continue to
object or express or rise up andfight for their frustration.
So it's kind of a long-windedway of me saying that that I
(21:59):
learned how to acknowledgepeople.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Was it frightening at first.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, I think at first I'm like a born people
pleaser, socialized as a womanin modern society, so I always
want everybody to smile and sowhen people are not happy, they
make me nervous.
I'm nervous around intimidatingpeople.
Yeah, there are times where Iwould you know that avoidance
that I talked about first, oflike not wanting to talk to
people when they're not in agood mood that could definitely
(22:28):
play out when there's conflictthat needs to be addressed.
But what I found was, if you'rebrave enough to name it, that
individual will often feel likethey don't.
They could just let theirshoulders drop a little bit and
feel like, okay, and that.
So it's something I kind ofeven as a reformed people
(22:51):
pleaser, I sometimes have toreally bolster my courage to do,
to step into something and namesomething that is is on
everybody's mind but is unsaidand it's intimidating.
But I know that it's effectiveand I know that it brings great
results.
It brings honor upon yourselfif you're willing to be brave
(23:13):
and name something like that andnot just be like oh well, you
know, I'm sure it'll all be okayand let's just smile and be
happy.
That doesn't win followers.
That doesn't make people feellike they can really trust you.
It's not authentic.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, I really like what you said be brave enough to
name it, and I think a lot oftimes and there's certainly been
a lot of times in my life whereI'm just like I'm not going to
name it and perhaps if I ignoreit it will go away and then I
won't have had to do it Icertainly can avoid things like
a champ, and I think a lot ofpeople can, but I can see being
(23:54):
on a mountain with no bathroomsmakes you really have to name it
.
Yeah, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah, you know what happens is it'll come back to
haunt you If you don't.
I sometimes say that problemsolving or resolving conflict or
deescalating the annoyance thatmight be present is sort of
like being in one of thoseshooting ranges with clay
pigeons.
It's like things get boom andwhat you want to do is you want
(24:23):
to hit that thing and blow it up.
If a clay pigeon of a problemis lofted into the air, you need
to smash it, not pretend likeit didn't happen because, then
it is still whole.
Our job is to fully addresssomething, to name it, to
explain that we understandthings didn't go the way that
(24:45):
they wanted, that we wanted topledge to do better or to give a
reframe for how best to thinkabout something.
If somebody's under themistaken assumption that it
should be perfect and it can'tbe, we have to address it
completely, to like really blowit up.
Otherwise it's just stillsitting there, it's not
(25:09):
processed or metabolized.
We just avoid.
And so, yeah, I know you get it.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, I think the theme that keeps coming back to
me is bravery, in that it takesbravery to start to be your
authentic self, which startswith vulnerability and then
being brave enough brave enoughto name it and brave enough to
deal with it head on.
And I think I know you're rightbecause you have 5,000 people
(25:42):
that say so, and but you'reresonating with me as well,
because there have been timesI've worked in sales and I've
done a lot of stuff.
And, yeah, when a person comesin angry because their phone has
melted, even if they melted it,you have to sort of stand up
(26:04):
and acknowledge it and be readyto go in head on.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
That's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah, I was gonna say people wanna feel seen and when
you do acknowledge what theybring to you, it helps them feel
really seen and understood,which is absolutely key.
If you're a medicalprofessional or a customer
service person, you want thatperson to feel like you get them
(26:36):
and that you want them to winand that you're on their side,
so I do.
I think that's a reallyimportant quality.
Yeah yeah, well that I mean.
We're social creatures.
We want to belong and feel partof a collective.
We're not.
There are very few of us thatcan survive truly isolated from
(27:00):
society.
And so you're just naming thosequalities that, when they're
present, the health of theindividual blooms because their
needs are being met in a waythat's just human.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So, just to finish up today, do you have a fun travel
anecdote that you'd like toshare with us?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Ooh, that's a good one.
I mean, there's so many, sure,I don't know.
I think there was a time whereI was traveling so much this may
be a personal story that therethis crazy thing would would
happen to me and to my husband,both like we could be anywhere
in the world just traveling onour own in between trips or what
(27:44):
have you, and people would askus questions like where's the
bathroom, or do you know wherethe trailhead is, or what time
does that restaurant open?
And we would look at each otherlike we don't.
What do we have this tour guideor like ask me, printed on my
forehead.
And what it was so funny is, Ithink, that we had gotten into
(28:07):
such a vibe of just alwaysmoving with a sense of we can
figure it out, that other peoplewould almost smell it on us
like odor, like it was justemanating from our pores.
We know what to do and we neverknew what we were doing.
We were just fumbling through,you know, malaysia with a
backpack.
But I think this is differentthan fake it till you make it.
(28:30):
It's it's trust that you havewhat you need to figure it out,
and that trust is magnetic.
It wasn't something I wastrying to do, but I had it right
and people around me that werestrangers would feel it.
So that might be just a funkind of global anecdote that
(28:53):
sometimes, even now, I look atmy husband, I'm like, oh, I have
to follow me on my foreheadagain.
Somebody just asked me aquestion I have no idea the
answer to.
I must have the follow me signlit up.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
So no, I believe it.
If we have any tour guideslistening, I think they're going
yes right now, because that'sprobably happened to them to.
That's fantastic.
So so, just to recap what yousaid for our audience so be
brave enough to name it.
I really like that.
And then you just had trustthat you have what you need to
(29:26):
figure it out, which I think isreally important, because a lot
of times we don't and you canget caught up in panic when you
don't because you think, oh, Idon't know this.
And and also work towards yourauthentic self.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I love that yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Yeah, that's.
That's really nice.
So, before we go, tell us alittle bit about what you do and
where people can get in touchwith you if they'd like.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Thanks, amy.
So yeah, so now I am inbusiness for myself as a
leadership coach and consultant.
I am found on all the interwebsvia my handle Joe leader, so on
YouTube I'm at Joe leader onewomen who lead with heart is my
Facebook group, which is alsogoes by Joe leader on Facebook,
and my website is wwwjoe leadercalm, and my website is probably
(30:21):
the best place to go to see allthe ways that you can work with
me.
I have dozens of free trainingsand downloads that I like to
offer and there's some very lowcost options to get some spot
coaching from me.
And then I have programs aswell that help especially women
in leadership find their brave,authentic voice, stop self doubt
(30:41):
and spinning out in secondguessing and finding their
complete confidence.
My programs called thecompletely confident leader and
you can find all about it atwwwjoe leader calm.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Wonderful, that's wonderful.
Thank you so much, joe, forbeing here today, really
appreciate you giving us yourtime.
Yep, love it.
Thank you again for joining uson the savvy communicator today.
If you've got questions, wewant to hear them.
Go to wwwsavvy communicator.
Calm and join our forum and letus know what you're thinking.
(31:18):
Join us on Facebook andInstagram for the very latest
that we've got to offer.
Thanks so much for being here.
Until next time.
Hi and welcome to the Savvy Communicator podcast.
I'm your host, amy Flanagan.
Today we're talking aboutleadership.
Are you brave enough to becomeauthentic?
Today we have a very excitingguest.
Her name is Jo Zuleika and sheis a leadership coach and
(00:21):
consultant.
Has trained over 5,000 peoplein leadership techniques over
the course of her career and itall started from her humble
beginnings as a tour guide.
Jo, welcome to the show, reallyglad to have you here.
So that's true, you started asa tour guide.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yes, indeed.
So straight out of college,when everybody else was going to
grad school, I decided that Iwas going to be a tour guide.
I wanted to travel, and thiswas back in the late 80s, dating
myself, and I didn't know howto do it.
I didn't know any way to do itother than being a flight
attendant, which just didn'tsound intriguing to me until I
(00:59):
found an emerging industry ofactive travel.
So I got a job as a tour guide,as a tour leader for hiking,
biking and active trips allaround the world, and I ended up
taking that further than I everthought I would go.
I thought maybe it'd be one ofthose gap year type things.
(01:21):
you know, a lark to do whenyou're still figuring out your
life, but it actually became mylife.
I worked as a tour guide forover 17 years, full time.
I ended up meeting and marryingmy husband.
That way, I became an executivefor the company and I developed
all of these leadershiptechniques focused on what I
learned from leading people ontrips on luxury, active travel
(01:45):
trips.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Wow, that's fantastic .
You think of tour guides.
You don't think of it as beinga long term career, right, sort
of like you're on vacation.
And it sort of feels likethey're on vacation to.
You know that they must beseeing everything for the first
time, even if they know about it.
Oh, that's really cool.
What places did you go to?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, so.
So I ended up starting at thiscompany right when it was about
to explode, and so as thecompany was growing, I got to go
to all the new destinationsthat the company was going to.
So it started off as thisactive travel company in the
West in the US West, and so Iwas in, you know, grand Canyon
National Park and Oregon Coastand Yellowstone and some of our
(02:30):
beautiful natural wild areas inthe domestic US, and then I got
to go to Hawaii and then I gotto go to New Zealand and then I
went to.
China and Bali and Costa Ricaand Norway and places all over
the world that I just neverthought I would have the
opportunity to go.
So it was quite a ride.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So when you decided to be a tour guide, did you know
that it was going to be anincredible opportunity for
communications training, or wasthat something that you realized
along the way?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Oh, it was definitely something I realized along the
way.
So when I started with thecompany, it was new.
We didn't have a trainingprogram.
And so I became kind of a seniortour leader that then mentored
others and organically developeda training program in-house for
this company that's now like a$250 million annual business.
So it was all sort of you knowhomegrown just me grassroots
(03:26):
figuring it out, telling,teaching and telling based on my
wits and my experience.
So I had no idea that it wouldbe a vehicle for me to develop
or teach leadership.
It just happened.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Wow, $250 million, and some of that's due to you
probably.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Well, I'd love to think so.
I've since retired from workingin corporate and now I work
solely for myself as aconsultant and a coach to help
other people find theirauthentic leadership, because I
think what I learned from thatperiod is that leadership is not
something that you impose uponyou.
It's not like a robe that youwear.
(04:02):
It's almost like I mean to besort of facetious.
It's like disrobing yourself.
It's like becoming you andbeing seen as you authentically.
And so that's what I'm allabout is helping people find
their authentic leadership voiceby being more who they are
rather than trying to becomesome you know ideal of what they
(04:25):
think leadership should be,which is not the way to go about
leading yourself or anyone else.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Oh, that's just fascinating, because that was my
initial instinct.
I was thinking okay, leadership, I have to be somebody
different, I have to be somebodybetter than who I am, because
I'm standing up there and I usedto work at a medical school and
I managed a team of about 10people, but I felt that all the
(04:52):
time I was like, well, I'masking them to do these things,
I must be doing them better, Imust be the one who's, you know,
always sort of ahead of thegame.
And so to think about authenticleadership, that's a really
cool term.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah Well, we don't resonate with people who are
impervious, with people who areperfectly perfect.
They make us feel inadequate,and by trying to be that way,
we're also inadequate.
We end up feeling like we'reconstantly chasing the devil on
our shoulder.
That says not good enough,stand up straighter, be
(05:29):
different, be better, be more,and it's just this mayhem that
goes on of everyone trying to besome version of themselves.
It's not really true.
So in in my, you know, line ofwork, we were taking people into
vulnerable experiences likeriding a bike in China.
And you know people would haveall of these ideas about fitness
(05:53):
, about body image, aboutprowess, like am I strong enough
, am I good enough?
And then we would be in theseuncomfortable situations where
we didn't speak the language orwe didn't know where we were
going, and so there'svulnerability everywhere, and
the only way to lead peoplethrough that is just to be
honest and say look like I'veonly been here once before, I
(06:15):
can't even go into thisterritory without a guide.
So I would even have to behonest about my inadequacy as
like the supreme leader and justkind of pull back the curtain
and say, but I'm here with youand I know what to do, and I got
granola bars, we're gonnafigure it out, and that's.
That would engender a lot moreof a spirit of participation
(06:37):
than if I was really challengingpeople to do some death defying
thing that I could do perfectly, but they needed to figure out.
You know, that's just not.
It's not a way to encourageloyalty or eager participation
or fun.
Really it's.
It was supposed to be fun,right?
We're on vacation, so yeah,that was that was a big part of
(06:58):
it.
I'll tell you what to Amy.
I'd started to interrupt myselfor you on this one, but when we
talk about that.
A big part of who we, how welead, is not actually being the
the person who is always havingall the answers.
That actually asking otherpeople to participate makes the
(07:21):
whole so much better.
It makes people bring who theyare to the table and that just
levels up the entire experienceor conversation for everyone.
So even if you don't know whatto do, you're not the only one.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Wow, okay, I get that .
That resonates with me.
It really does, even thoughI've never done anything for
authentic leadership.
But I see that, starting from aplace of vulnerability, even
though you're not it's notverbal communication that
probably does, yeah, do a lot tocommunicate simply the fact
(07:59):
that you're there, you're likethem, but you're going to guide
everybody through it, yeah, soI'll tell you what.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
the people who burn out at that job, at that type of
job, are the people who pretendharder, people who are really
trying hard to appear like theyknow everything, because that
certainly is a thing in tourleaderdom is that you want to
know all the answers.
There are people that want tolearn all the flora and fauna,
be able to have all the answersabout the knowledge of the area
they want to be.
They never want to be caughtoff guard.
(08:29):
That's the way that they.
They feel safe in that role andwith that title.
But they burn out becausethey're exhausted at the end of
a tour because they've beenhustling so hard to appear
perfectly perfect or smarterthan smart.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
That's so interesting and I can see that too, just
from a point of I worked as aprofessional actor for about 15
years, really, and yes so, andso much of the training,
especially when you start, isdesigned to teach you to break
down those barriers.
So that you can show that sameamount of vulnerability.
That's really what puts peoplein.
(09:08):
But the reason why there are somany theater games and
techniques and rehearsals andtechnical rehearsals is to try
to get that authenticity across.
So it seems like you must havehad a lot of those same
instincts as you know aprofessional actor would have.
(09:29):
Yeah, simply because you knowit's the same thing.
You're up on a stage.
Yeah, you're up on a stage,everybody's watching, and you
have to lead them where to go.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
You know what's cool about that, amy?
It's like so there's two things.
I don't want to sell out that.
There's another term that Iwould use all the time when I
was training new tour guides,which is follow me leadership.
Like you do have to post up assomebody that other people will
feel comfortable following, soyou do actually have to master
some sense of like I've got this, I know what to do, you can
(10:03):
trust me, you can follow me,even if I don't know all the
names of all the plants or Iknow exactly if it's a left or a
right at that intersection,like.
So there's that duality, rightOf being absolutely commanding
and authoritative in your ownskin, but also willing to say
I'm not quite sure about thisparticular thing.
So, like an actor on the stage,I think there are moments where
(10:27):
that individual holds yourattention, even when they
themselves might not exactlyknow where they're going to go
next.
They have the confidence to bein that spot of discovery Right,
and that's what makes it sointeresting for an actor or for
a career tour guide.
Is that that sweet spot, notthe like trying to look like you
(10:50):
know I'm super duper and I wantto get like the most sterling
reviews and no one will ever sayanything negative about
anything about me.
Like that's not a way to berelatable.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's so true.
So for people in the audiencelike me who have never heard the
term authentic leadershipbefore and maybe want to take
steps towards that, what's thefirst thing that you would
recommend?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
other than to sign up and take courses with you.
No, no, no, no.
It's to know at least a littlebit about who you are Like.
Here's what I know from havingtraveled the world and like sat
with some of the mostinteresting people that we've
never heard of.
Like think about some weaver ina Vietnamese village that takes
(11:38):
silk yarn and makes theseamazing tapestries, and what
makes her so fascinating.
I don't share language with her.
I have like zero in common withher other than probably we both
have beating hearts, but Idon't understand her life story.
I don't eat her food, I don'tlive in her village, and like
(11:59):
for her to imagine what I did tocome and visit her would blow
her mind right.
What makes people fascinating,what makes people so compelling
and their authenticity isknowing what they're good at,
knowing what they care about,and so through an interpreter
you could learn about, like whythis woman does what she does,
or why she's good at, or whatshe thinks about when she does
(12:21):
it, and that's what's authentic,right, like she's not trying to
be anything other than exactlywhat she is or what she cares
about, or what she does so well,like her craft so well.
I would be coaching people allthe time when they were becoming
tour leaders or just leaders inany industry is to just use who
(12:42):
you are Like.
If you're a brilliant linguist,if you're really good with
terms of phrase and metaphor,then you should be speaking, you
should be writing, you shouldbe communicating with words.
But if that's not your jam,don't try to be that.
Don't try to look like you'relike some orator.
If that makes you extremelynervous.
(13:02):
Go do what you're good at.
Teach what you know, be in yourzone of genius.
So I think the very first thingis knowing what your brilliant
skill set is, what you're reallygood at, what you love to do.
That's your authenticity,that's your like.
Putting your finger in thelight socket, that's it right
there.
That's helpful.
(13:23):
I don't know if that would behelpful?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yes, it's very helpful.
No, the next question that Iwanted to ask was what was that
process like for you?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Oh, good question, I think.
Well, I'm a junkie for personaldevelopment, so I probably have
done all the assessments youknow to know who I am and what
makes me tick and all that typeof thing.
I think in the course of that Ijust knew like I'm an extrovert
, I'm a connector, I like beinginspired and in inspiration, and
(13:58):
when you know those things, itdoesn't matter exactly what you
choose to do.
You can be a mom, you could beartist lover, you can be an
adventurer.
You just express those thingsin whatever arena you end up
choosing.
And so that's probably how Idid.
It is through self awareness,right, Like all those
(14:21):
assessments, I just came to knowwhat my operating system is,
how I run my how I like to be,how I can only be, and letting
that be how I am in anycircumstance.
You know, my parents alwaysthought I was going to give up
this true guide thing and be a,you know, a stand up human and
(14:41):
go back to grad school and get aquote unquote real job, capital
R, capital J, right.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
But it didn't matter if I did that, that I could do
that in my way or I could staywhere I was and become the
version of me that would bethere, which was starting to
create hiring and training andmentoring and managing models
for that population and thenexpanding and exploding from
what I'm good at in that realm.
(15:09):
So the circumstance didn'tmatter.
It was how I got to be and Ijust knew what turned me on.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I think you're right.
I know it was certainly myparents are listening, sorry,
but they had the same desire.
They want you to be secure,they want you to be okay, they
want you to have healthinsurance.
And so a lot of times we had tohave that discussion Like, is
it worth it to take this lowpaying job?
(15:38):
That's what you want to do Interms of?
Couldn't you find somethingthat you almost like to do that
has health insurance?
Yeah, right.
And I think you go through alot of questioning and you ask
yourself is that okay?
Is what I'm doing okay?
Because I love it so much.
(15:59):
We're gonna take a quick break.
We're with Joe Zuleika, who isa incredible once tour guide,
now leadership coach andconsultant, having trained over
5,000 people in our lifetime,and we're talking about
communication and authenticleadership and how you can bring
that to you.
We'll be right back.
Welcome back to the show Again.
(16:31):
We're here with Joe Zuleika andJoe, I am just dying to know
some of the nitty gritty detailsof when you were a tour guide.
It must have been a crashcourse, a crash masterclass,
I'll say, in communication andlearning how to deal with groups
of people who might not befeeling so happy at the moment.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
So tell me a little bit about that.
Yeah, I think that you're right.
I mean, travel can bring somany unexpected circumstances
and many of them can beundesired, certainly, and when
we're disappointed, we're not atour best, and so I've seen a
lot of disappointed people in mylifetime, people that I've
(17:16):
depended on for my livelihood asa tour guide.
It's definitely like agratuity-based culture, so you
really do wanna please people,you want them to be happy, give
you a good review and hopefullygive you a nice gratuity.
So I've danced that dancebetween when people are
disappointed and how you handlethem.
How do you master that?
How do you help resolveconflict, especially when you
(17:39):
can't control the weather, orthat dinner's gonna be an hour
and a half late or that there'snot enough elephants to ride in
Thailand, when you're on yourelephant riding excursion, right
, oh my God, shhh.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I could say, that being a big disappointment.
It was like I'm here.
Why isn't the elephant?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
here Shhh.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Hahaha.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Well, you know, what you end up doing is you
sacrifice, because my husband, Iended up marrying my co-tour
guide which is a whole otherpodcast and I ended up hiking
behind 14 elephants that day,and that was not very pretty,
but because we had to give upour elephant, because we had to
discount it.
So, you know, sometimes youjust get generous to help solve
(18:21):
the problem.
But I do actually have sometips that I've learned that
maybe are humorous but actuallymight serve.
People are better, they'reeasier to talk to when they're
well fed and when they're wellslept and when they're
caffeinated.
So, I kind of developed thisrule that I often avoided making
(18:45):
people talk to me when I knewthey weren't at their best.
So this looks like me surfingaround the breakfast room 35
minutes after they've beenseated and got their cup of
coffee and have some food ontheir plate, not before that,
when they're agitated andirritable.
Because, there are times youdon't want to insert yourself in
(19:05):
a process where you can'tcontrol the outcome.
So I can't control how fast thecoffee's gonna come, but I can
control when I come and say goodmorning.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And so I come and say good morning after they have
their cup of coffee.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I also don't talk to people between three and five PM
.
This is not a rule in my reallife now, but when they were
getting off a bicycle or off ahike, that's not the golden hour
.
That's not the time that youwanna relate with people.
They're hot, they're tired,they're sweaty, they haven't
checked into their hotel room.
You just kind of let them be.
So there's some simple tacticsof just recognizing sort of the
(19:42):
ebb and flow of when humans areat their best and meeting them
in those moments.
But there's also ways that howcan you help people get up to
that baseline.
So I mean, some of the simplethings are.
An easy trick for a tour guideis always to have something cold
and sweet in your backpack.
(20:04):
You're always popular when youhave frozen strawberries at the
summit of a mountain.
You're always popular whenyou've got ice water.
You're always popular whenyou're throwing out frozen otter
pops from the roof of a 15passenger van and 100 degree
weather, right, wow.
So make people happy with.
Sometimes it's just we'reanimals, we need things right.
(20:27):
But here's the other thingthose are sort of facetious, but
true.
There are other things that Ibelieve with my whole heart,
that I teach until I can't stoptalking about.
It is how you actually can helpdeescalate some conflict that
someone's feeling through areally, really simple tactic,
(20:49):
and it is by usingacknowledgement.
It's by verbally acknowledgingthe frustration or feeling that
another person is expressing toyou.
And this is the thing that Ifeel is so often glossed over in
many conflict resolution modelsor trainings, where we think
(21:14):
that we're understanding that,but if you're not actually
verbally saying to someone Iacknowledge that this is not up
to standard.
I acknowledge that this isdisappointing.
I understand that this isn'twhat you expected.
I get it that you're frustratedwhen we say that we de-escalate
(21:36):
the rising ire in anyonebecause they know that we've
received what they're trying toexpress to us, and when you
don't do that, they just feellike they have to continue to
object or express or rise up andfight for their frustration.
So it's kind of a long-windedway of me saying that that I
(21:59):
learned how to acknowledgepeople.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Was it frightening at first.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, I think at first I'm like a born people
pleaser, socialized as a womanin modern society, so I always
want everybody to smile and sowhen people are not happy, they
make me nervous.
I'm nervous around intimidatingpeople.
Yeah, there are times where Iwould you know that avoidance
that I talked about first, oflike not wanting to talk to
people when they're not in agood mood that could definitely
(22:28):
play out when there's conflictthat needs to be addressed.
But what I found was, if you'rebrave enough to name it, that
individual will often feel likethey don't.
They could just let theirshoulders drop a little bit and
feel like, okay, and that.
So it's something I kind ofeven as a reformed people
(22:51):
pleaser, I sometimes have toreally bolster my courage to do,
to step into something and namesomething that is is on
everybody's mind but is unsaidand it's intimidating.
But I know that it's effectiveand I know that it brings great
results.
It brings honor upon yourselfif you're willing to be brave
(23:13):
and name something like that andnot just be like oh well, you
know, I'm sure it'll all be okayand let's just smile and be
happy.
That doesn't win followers.
That doesn't make people feellike they can really trust you.
It's not authentic.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, I really like what you said be brave enough to
name it, and I think a lot oftimes and there's certainly been
a lot of times in my life whereI'm just like I'm not going to
name it and perhaps if I ignoreit it will go away and then I
won't have had to do it Icertainly can avoid things like
a champ, and I think a lot ofpeople can, but I can see being
(23:54):
on a mountain with no bathroomsmakes you really have to name it
.
Yeah, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah, you know what happens is it'll come back to
haunt you If you don't.
I sometimes say that problemsolving or resolving conflict or
deescalating the annoyance thatmight be present is sort of
like being in one of thoseshooting ranges with clay
pigeons.
It's like things get boom andwhat you want to do is you want
(24:23):
to hit that thing and blow it up.
If a clay pigeon of a problemis lofted into the air, you need
to smash it, not pretend likeit didn't happen because, then
it is still whole.
Our job is to fully addresssomething, to name it, to
explain that we understandthings didn't go the way that
(24:45):
they wanted, that we wanted topledge to do better or to give a
reframe for how best to thinkabout something.
If somebody's under themistaken assumption that it
should be perfect and it can'tbe, we have to address it
completely, to like really blowit up.
Otherwise it's just stillsitting there, it's not
(25:09):
processed or metabolized.
We just avoid.
And so, yeah, I know you get it.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, I think the theme that keeps coming back to
me is bravery, in that it takesbravery to start to be your
authentic self, which startswith vulnerability and then
being brave enough brave enoughto name it and brave enough to
deal with it head on.
And I think I know you're rightbecause you have 5,000 people
(25:42):
that say so, and but you'reresonating with me as well,
because there have been timesI've worked in sales and I've
done a lot of stuff.
And, yeah, when a person comesin angry because their phone has
melted, even if they melted it,you have to sort of stand up
(26:04):
and acknowledge it and be readyto go in head on.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
That's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah, I was gonna say people wanna feel seen and when
you do acknowledge what theybring to you, it helps them feel
really seen and understood,which is absolutely key.
If you're a medicalprofessional or a customer
service person, you want thatperson to feel like you get them
(26:36):
and that you want them to winand that you're on their side,
so I do.
I think that's a reallyimportant quality.
Yeah yeah, well that I mean.
We're social creatures.
We want to belong and feel partof a collective.
We're not.
There are very few of us thatcan survive truly isolated from
(27:00):
society.
And so you're just naming thosequalities that, when they're
present, the health of theindividual blooms because their
needs are being met in a waythat's just human.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So, just to finish up today, do you have a fun travel
anecdote that you'd like toshare with us?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Ooh, that's a good one.
I mean, there's so many, sure,I don't know.
I think there was a time whereI was traveling so much this may
be a personal story that therethis crazy thing would would
happen to me and to my husband,both like we could be anywhere
in the world just traveling onour own in between trips or what
(27:44):
have you, and people would askus questions like where's the
bathroom, or do you know wherethe trailhead is, or what time
does that restaurant open?
And we would look at each otherlike we don't.
What do we have this tour guideor like ask me, printed on my
forehead.
And what it was so funny is, Ithink, that we had gotten into
(28:07):
such a vibe of just alwaysmoving with a sense of we can
figure it out, that other peoplewould almost smell it on us
like odor, like it was justemanating from our pores.
We know what to do and we neverknew what we were doing.
We were just fumbling through,you know, malaysia with a
backpack.
But I think this is differentthan fake it till you make it.
(28:30):
It's it's trust that you havewhat you need to figure it out,
and that trust is magnetic.
It wasn't something I wastrying to do, but I had it right
and people around me that werestrangers would feel it.
So that might be just a funkind of global anecdote that
(28:53):
sometimes, even now, I look atmy husband, I'm like, oh, I have
to follow me on my foreheadagain.
Somebody just asked me aquestion I have no idea the
answer to.
I must have the follow me signlit up.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
So no, I believe it.
If we have any tour guideslistening, I think they're going
yes right now, because that'sprobably happened to them to.
That's fantastic.
So so, just to recap what yousaid for our audience so be
brave enough to name it.
I really like that.
And then you just had trustthat you have what you need to
(29:26):
figure it out, which I think isreally important, because a lot
of times we don't and you canget caught up in panic when you
don't because you think, oh, Idon't know this.
And and also work towards yourauthentic self.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I love that yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Yeah, that's.
That's really nice.
So, before we go, tell us alittle bit about what you do and
where people can get in touchwith you if they'd like.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Thanks, amy.
So yeah, so now I am inbusiness for myself as a
leadership coach and consultant.
I am found on all the interwebsvia my handle Joe leader, so on
YouTube I'm at Joe leader onewomen who lead with heart is my
Facebook group, which is alsogoes by Joe leader on Facebook,
and my website is wwwjoe leadercalm, and my website is probably
(30:21):
the best place to go to see allthe ways that you can work with
me.
I have dozens of free trainingsand downloads that I like to
offer and there's some very lowcost options to get some spot
coaching from me.
And then I have programs aswell that help especially women
in leadership find their brave,authentic voice, stop self doubt
(30:41):
and spinning out in secondguessing and finding their
complete confidence.
My programs called thecompletely confident leader and
you can find all about it atwwwjoe leader calm.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Wonderful, that's wonderful.
Thank you so much, joe, forbeing here today, really
appreciate you giving us yourtime.
Yep, love it.
Thank you again for joining uson the savvy communicator today.
If you've got questions, wewant to hear them.
Go to wwwsavvy communicator.
Calm and join our forum and letus know what you're thinking.
(31:18):
Join us on Facebook andInstagram for the very latest
that we've got to offer.
Thanks so much for being here.
Until next time.
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