July 3, 2023 • 30 mins
Ever wonder why it's so hard to ask for what you want in the workplace? The truly savvy communicator knows it's not about demanding, but about advocating for professional needs with grace, strategy, and bravery. Kim Nicol, expert life coach, joins us to unravel this complex topic. We delve into the power dynamics of asking, the importance of long-term strategic thinking, and how expectations can often be limited by our knowledge and experiences. Kim emphasizes that speaking up should not be seen as a risk, but a skill to be honed. This is not just a conversation; it's a masterclass in advocating for oneself.
Kim Nicol is a life coach and host of The New Manager Podcast. She coaches kind, ambitious people who are making a positive contribution in the world, and helps them live and lead more mindfully. Check her out at www.kimnicol.com!
This is a show where ideas come together. The guest statements expressed on The Savvy Communicator Podcast are their own and not necessarily the views of The Savvy Communicator.
Thanks for joining us! Become part of the conversation at www.savvycommunicator.com, and follow me on social media: my handle is @savvycommunicator.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amy (00:01):
Putting our own needs first can be difficult.
The pressure can be even higherat work.
Join us today as we discuss thebenefits of advocating for your
professional needs.
Hi and welcome to the SavvyCommunicator podcast.
This is a place where wediscuss all things communication
, but, most importantly, how totalk when you're not sure what
(00:21):
to say.
My expert guest today is KimNicol.
She is a life coach and a hostof the new Manager podcast.
Kim, thank you so much forbeing on the show today.
Kim (00:31):
I'm so glad to be here.
Amy (00:33):
So really glad to have you.
I am so interested in yourperspective on business and
especially women in business.
I just want to jump in.
Was there a particular time inyour career where you felt that
you really wanted to be a coach?
Kim (00:48):
I think I was doing a lot of teaching and coaching even
before I knew that that was athing that people did.
Even back when I was in school,I was volunteering at this
group to teach kids in highschool about the legal system.
When I finished and I was outworking, I ended up choosing
(01:10):
this other side job where I wasteaching movement and fitness
classes and then I was teachingmeditation classes.
So for me, there's always beenthis strong drive to share what
I know and to help others.
And then, when I learned aboutlearning and development, and
coaching and life coaching andall of the different ways that
(01:32):
you can help adults to learn andgrow in their life and at work.
I thought, oh, I want to dothat.
I didn't realize that was anoption.
That's a thing I want to knowabout that.
Let's do that.
Amy (01:44):
Yeah, oh, that's fantastic.
I know I had a similarexperience where it's just, you
know, you feel that you're in acertain bracket and then it's
like, no, i could be moreindividualized.
I can really talk about thisthing.
I can talk about why it's scaryto communicate with a patient
or something like that.
I want to do that all the time.
Yeah, and that's how I got intomy coaching area too.
(02:05):
That's really great.
Why do you think people needcoaching to ask for what they
want?
Kim (02:12):
No, I think that's such a great question.
Number one I didn't even knowthat you could have a coach to
help you do this until, I mean,I was probably well into my 30s.
I just like I didn't know aboutcoaching.
I think now coaching is so muchmore prevalent and it's more
available and accessible topeople, So I think it's a bigger
(02:33):
part of the conversation.
Yes.
Yes For learning how to ask forthings.
I think of it especially interms of advocacy, how to
advocate for yourself, how tospeak up for yourself.
And before you can do that,first you have to know what you
want, and a lot of times wedon't have clarity or we don't
really pause to think about whatdo I want.
(02:55):
With the folks that I oftenwork with, the mindset is I will
make do with what I have, andthat is a very resilient and
very resourceful mindset.
But when you're thinking onlyof I will make do with what I
have, then we're not thinkingabout what else is available.
(03:15):
Is there a resource I can askfor?
And so coaching is so much aboutthat mindset work of learning.
How are you seeing the world,how are you thinking about
things?
And that's really hard for usto do on our own because it's
like we don't see our own blindspots.
So I think it's really coolthat coaching now is so much
(03:37):
more available and more peopleknow about it.
And then around communicationand speaking up for yourself and
asking for what you want.
It can be scary if you havealways felt like I can't ask for
what I want.
I need to make do with what Ihave.
I'm a worried that if I ask forsomething that will reflect
(03:59):
badly on me, i know that's aninternal story a lot of the
folks I work with in Coach Face,and so it really becomes
valuable to say okay, i am goingto choose some dedicated time
for learning and development.
And then to know you can have acoach to help you with that to
learn how to communicate andfeel more confident, to get more
(04:22):
clarity about what you want andfeel okay wanting things.
To feel like it doesn't makeyou less, because you want
something more.
Amy (04:31):
Mm-hmm.
Well, i'm really resonatingwith everything you have to say,
because you're absolutely right.
So much of communication isjust we think, well, i have to
say this, so I'll just plunge inand say it.
And it's very scary because alot of times it doesn't work and
(04:53):
that's frightening on its ownAnd we're like, well, i'm not
going to do that again, i'mcertainly not going to ask for
what I need when it went sobadly.
And sometimes, if it goes well,we're not sure how we did it,
and then we're afraid to do itagain, because then it might not
work.
Yeah, i work with a lot ofdoctors on communication,
because that's something else.
That's a field where, untilrecently, they weren't paying
(05:15):
attention to communication atall.
It was like, well, i need totell the patient this, so I'll
tell it.
And it was damaging to patientsand to the doctors because they
didn't know what they weredoing either, And so they had
those terrible experiences too.
And now it's becoming much moreokay to practice, to say I
(05:38):
would like to tell you this.
May I sit down?
How would you like me toaddress you?
This is what I'd like to talkabout, whereas before it was not
, and thankfully we're startingto see that improvement.
So it's just interesting.
I'm just seeing a lot ofparallels.
Kim (05:55):
I love everything you're saying because I think like I
work with folks in a lot ofdifferent industries.
And one of the things I seeconsistently is that when we
improve and develop how wecommunicate, when we see
communication not as about ourpersonality, but more like a
skill that we can continue todevelop and get better at, it
(06:17):
has so many positive effects inthe workplace.
When communication is notskillful And again, it's not
about someone being a bad person, it's just this idea that you
might be really smart, you mightbe really good at the thing you
do, but if you don't have thecommunication skills to work
(06:38):
effectively with other humans,then, everything gets harder.
Amy (06:43):
Yes, yes, and I think that having the realization that
everybody that you know reallyone of the frustrating things
about communication is that it'sdifferent every time.
You know it's not likebasketball, where you can
perfect a layup or a free throwEvery single time.
It's different because everysingle person is different, and
(07:04):
so learning how to kind of rollwith the punches and be true to
yourself This is how I do it,this is how I'm going to ask for
this, but understanding that itmight be different for one
person versus next It's soindividual, i think is just.
You know, i find it fascinating.
I'm glad you do too, because wejust get out together over it.
(07:27):
It's really great.
Yeah, yeah, no-transcript.
Are our expectations just toolow in general, especially as
women?
Kim (07:37):
in the workplace.
I think that is such a goodquestion And the way I think
about it is our expectations are, I feel like, not so much low
to high, but our expectationsare always informed by certain
things.
Our expectations are informedby our past, by the examples of
(08:00):
other people that we've seen.
Our expectations are informedby what other people have told
us about what's possible oravailable and we might have
decided to believe them.
So our expectations, I thinkthe thing we forget is that
there are always morealternatives available than we
(08:21):
realize.
And.
I sort of think of it, like youknow.
So if you look across thehorizon, you have a horizon line
and we're often looking forwardand we don't realize that
there's actually more around usthan we can ever ever see.
So as you take a step forward,what comes into your peripheral
(08:42):
vision begins to change and yourhorizon line begins to change.
So I think sometimes it's likewe stand and we look around and
we say this is what's available.
So I'll base my expectations onwhat I can currently see and
what I know, And we forget thatas we engage with the world and
(09:03):
as we start to question some ofthose assumptions, our
expectations can change.
I think sometimes we're just abit rigid with them And we
forget that there's actuallymore.
Amy (09:17):
Yeah, I completely understand where you're coming
from.
On that, I know I myself havebeen very rigid in expectations
and it took, you know, becauseit would be like you know, you'd
ask for this, they'd say no,they'd give whatever reason.
You'd be like, well, I guessthat's how it is forever And I
wouldn't ask for it again.
And I remember, finally, I wasbound to, determined to go to
(09:40):
this conference and I reallywanted to go.
And so I set a goal that Iwould try to go two years from
that day.
And I asked seven times.
You know, once every three orfour months, I said I really
like to go to this conference.
No, no, no, no, no.
And I decided I'm going to keepasking until I move to a
(10:02):
different job or until I get togo, And I'm not telling the
story to be like hey, look at me, I really did an amazing thing,
But just you know it.
Suddenly I was able to havemore perspective and able to do
exactly what you're saying thinkabout things around me.
So I think that's a beautifulimage, Yeah.
Kim (10:22):
Well, and I love your story because that also is making me
think of a couple of things.
One is that we often think wehave to ask, we get one shot to
ask and if it's a no, thenthat's over.
And so that puts on so muchpressure, that feeling of I have
to ask in the right way inorder to get the answer that I
want.
And then if someone says no, itfeels so bad And, just like you
(10:44):
said, it's like, well, i'llnever do that again.
And for so many of us.
Our experience of asking forthings happened initially when
we were tiny humans asking bighumans for things.
So I think we kind of carryalong this power dynamic feeling
where the moment we feel likewe're going to ask for something
, we feel like a worried littlekid.
(11:06):
I hope you say yes, yeah, andit's like we completely lose
sight of who we are, that we arecompetent adults, and that
early emotional feeling getsactivated and it can really
interfere with how we make thatask.
And your story reminded me Ihad a client And so on my
(11:27):
podcast I talk a lot aboutself-advocacy at work, yes, and
specifically how to ask forprofessional development
resources, whether that's justlike you were saying, i want to
go to a conference or I want todo a program to learn more, to
make myself better at work.
And I had a client who hadwanted to work with me and had
(11:52):
wanted her company to pay forher to work with me on
leadership and becoming a bettermanager in all of this.
And so what she did was shestarted to do some research.
She's like OK, what is ourcurrent professional development
budget?
She realized that it was notenough to cover the fee to work
with me.
But she started to advocate forherself, talking to her manager,
(12:16):
making the conversation of OK,here's my plan for professional
development, Here's what I wantto work on, Here's how it
connects to my current andfuture job responsibilities.
So she's helping her manager tounderstand the value of her ask
even before she makes that ask.
(12:37):
And she started to also thenfind out well, are there other
exceptions that we've made inthe past for other kinds of
learning and development things?
Because sometimes resources areflexible.
People have discretion toapprove things beyond what the
policy is.
So because she was thinking inthis strategic, long-term way
(12:59):
and she just knew I want this,why not ask for it?
Let me think about how to do itin a way that doesn't feel
scary.
All or nothing.
She had a plan And at the endshe was able to make it work.
So I love that, because hercompany now gets a more skilled,
trained person.
(13:20):
She gets the benefit of thework And it's like everyone can
win.
It can actually work out inthis really beautiful way.
Amy (13:28):
Yes, Yes, i really agree with what you're saying.
And it's funny.
I've been on the flip side too,where I've been in training and
whoever it is comes and saysyou have X amount of money for
professional development.
This is for people to doexactly that to buy some
(13:49):
learning materials or go to aconference or whatever, and then
and nobody comes and asks Andwe weren't very good at going
out and saying, by the way, youcan do this So I think you
bridge a very important gap,because you're letting people
know not only that it's there,but that it's within their grasp
(14:10):
.
Kim (14:11):
I love hearing you say that too, because what I often tell
people is there might be moneyallocated for learning and
development, and if you're notasking for it, that's actually a
problem because, it's someone'sjob to spend that money in a
specific way And if you're notasking, that's actually a
problem for them, because nowthey have to figure out what's
(14:32):
going to happen.
And it's like you might actuallybe helping someone do their job
by raising your hand and saying, hey, there's a conference I
want, there's a coach I want towork with, there's some learning
materials that will help me.
It's a completely differentmindset versus one of the
reasons I see why people don'task is because they're afraid
that it will show I'm not goodenough at my job.
Amy (14:56):
If I was good enough.
Kim (14:57):
I wouldn't need that extra training.
They feel like it's a sign oftheir deficiency rather than a
sign of their ambition and theirresourcefulness and being
really responsible and drivingtheir own career growth.
They don't see it in thatpositive light, so yeah, so
that's really.
Amy (15:17):
Yeah.
I really appreciate thatperspective because, you're
right, somebody is sitting thereand maybe if they don't spend
it, then they get less the nextyear, because I've been in
situations where that happensAnd then, instead of running
around at the end of the fiscalyear trying to buy pencils or
whatever it is, you can spendthat in a way and show that it
(15:37):
is needed.
You're right, you have thatstrength and confidence in
yourself to be able to do that.
Yeah, and I've been on bothsides of that.
Kim (15:50):
So yeah, and I feel like part of what that also speaks to
.
You can also start with a smallask, so sometimes people think,
oh, i have to wait until it'ssomething really big to ask for.
But, if you think of speakingup is a skill that you can
develop, and so start practicingwith things that seem small,
(16:11):
because that will help you togain that confidence.
It won't feel so bad if they sayno but you'll start practicing
that skill of speaking up on thesmaller things, so that you
feel more equipped for the bigthings.
Amy (16:25):
I have taught a course in the past about setting
boundaries, both as a patientand as a physician, and we do
the exact same thing.
Instead of saying you know it'sa small ask, you can say it's a
small boundary.
You can say I'm going to leavewithin five minutes of this time
, and you try to do it.
(16:47):
And then you say I'm going toleave at 12 pm, and you don't
try to do it, you do it.
You just walk out and find outwhat happens.
You know, sometimes there mightbe an emergency that pulls you
back.
Sometimes there isn't, and thenyou have gotten your goal, and
that's really important.
Kim, i wanted to ask you if youcould give tips to our
(17:12):
listeners on how to ask for whatthey want.
You know, we've talked aboutconfidence, we've talked about
starting with a small ask.
We've talked, you know,realizing that the resources are
probably there.
But if you could give a fewtips to our listeners, what
would you suggest?
Kim (17:29):
First, think about what it is that you want.
Think about why asking mightactually be helpful, not just
for you because you might get it, but think about how you
getting what you want actuallyhelps other people.
So, for example, there wassomeone who wrote to me and said
(17:51):
that she was really, reallytall and she didn't have a chair
that fit her body.
And she, you know, thought, oh,i just have to deal with it, i
just have to deal with the chairthat I have.
And as she thought about it,she's like okay, i actually want
a chair that fits my body.
And then she thought, well, andactually, if I have a chair
that fits my body, then I willhave more energy, i will feel
(18:14):
more comfortable, i'll be ableto be more productive, it will
help me do the work that I'mhere to do.
And then she also thought well,you know, maybe there's
actually budget for this kind ofthing.
I don't actually know.
Maybe it will help someone tofeel like they're improving
workplace ergonomic, somethingor other.
So she started to be curiousabout how can other people
(18:37):
benefit from me asking.
And, as a side note, sometimeswe have such a hard time
speaking up for ourselves.
Amy (18:44):
But when we?
Kim (18:44):
think that it's going to help others.
It makes it so much easier.
So she thought about it in thatlight And then she went ahead
and made the ask.
She reached out to her HRpartner and said hey, you know,
i'm wondering, can I get adifferent chair?
I'm really tall And, by the way, like we're all, so many of us
are work from home, so nobodyactually knows how, what bodies
(19:06):
we have.
We just see the faces.
So her HR person didn't knowAnd, as it turns out, they're
like oh yeah, of course, noproblem at all.
And she got this chair.
And so this idea of Know whatyou want, think about how it
might help somebody else for youto make this ask.
Amy (19:28):
That's a really good point.
We're going to take a quickbreak.
We're talking with Kim Nicol.
We'll be right back.
Kim (19:39):
The third thing is think of it as a skill, something that
you can get better at, so it'snot like so much risk, so much
at stake.
It's a thing you're going tolearn how to do Yes, right, and
you know that.
You've learned how to do thingsbefore.
You have learned lots of otherkinds of skills You are good at
(20:01):
learning hoping to remindyourself of that, and I guess
the last thing too, is to thinkof it not like being a little
kid asking for something fromyour parents, which often I
think is kind of our defaultbackground image whenever we're
asking something of someone whoseems like they have greater
authority or power but, insteadthink of it as coming in as a
(20:26):
thought partner, and that ismore like we're coming in at the
same level.
I'm making an ask because I'mtaking responsibility for my
work and for my life, and I'mgoing to make your job easier
because, I'm going to speak upand ask for this thing And that,
i think, brings us out of thatinitial feeling of oh, i hope
(20:49):
this authority figure says yesto me.
And it actually kind of helpsus level up in our mind and feel
a little bit more like thatfull empowered, capable adult
that you are.
Amy (21:03):
You have a coaching business that's really dedicated
just to this.
Would you mind telling us alittle bit about it?
Kim (21:08):
Oh, happy to.
So I'm a life coach and I workwith a lot of new managers, and
so what that usually looks likeis someone is promoted or they
move into a new job and theyhave a new team, and then
there's all of the fear, all theuncertainty, all of the self
judgment, all of the self doubtflares up Anytime we're growing,
(21:31):
anytime we're doing somethingwe've never done before, and
when we start moving into higherlevels of leadership, what
happens, too, is you have morepeople looking to you.
You've got your team plus thefolks above you, so there can
feel like there's more pressure,more visibility, at the same
exact time that you're doing ajob that maybe you've never done
(21:51):
before, because, for example,being a really great salesperson
is a really different job thanmanaging a team of salespeople.
Yes, right.
And so I do a lot of coachingand supportive folks when
they're at that initial stage ofleadership in their careers.
(22:12):
And it often also includes somuch of what's happening in your
life.
Because, when we're not happyat work.
Everyone else in our life willhear about it.
Amy (22:22):
Yes.
Kim (22:25):
And, conversely, for having a really hard time in our
private life.
That definitely shows up in howwe're able to be at work.
So I really want humans to feelsupported and have the
resources they need to reallyexcel and feel satisfied in
their work, so they can alsofeel really great in the rest of
their lives too.
Amy (22:45):
Wow, that's so necessary And I just love how you're
focusing on it.
Not just to achieve this goalbecause it can be achieved,
because some people might stopthere, be like I'll teach you
how to achieve this goal.
You achieved it, thank you verymuch, but you're going on and
(23:09):
saying this has to do with yourlife, this has to do with your
quality of life, because youwant to be happy in both places.
I had a wonderful conversationwith another guest a few weeks
ago And what she said aboutcommunication was that when we
think it's just about talkingand we think it's just about to
get things that we want to need,but when we don't get them, we
(23:32):
also communicate.
And it might be that wecommunicate through doing some
things that we wouldn't normallydo.
Sometimes it's by not doingthings that we would normally do
, and sometimes it's verbal andsometimes it's body language,
but we do communicate either waywhen things are going well and
when they're not going well.
Kim (23:53):
That is so true.
Amy (23:55):
And just so you taking it that extra step to make sure
that they're going to becommunicating that good energy
and those positive outcomes.
I think is really neat.
Kim (24:11):
Yeah, this is what's so great, is that okay?
So communication skills you usein every area of your life.
And so what's really cool isthat whatever you learn, that
will help you at work, it willhelp you elsewhere.
If you're learning how to askfor a chair at work, then that
will also help you to ask theperson you live with for
(24:34):
something you need that couldmake the relationship better,
for example, right.
Amy (24:40):
Like.
This is the beauty of it.
Kim (24:41):
And like learning sometimes with folks and they think, oh,
I can't ask at work becausethat's too high a risk And I've
got to really get it just rightAnd it's like great, Then we're
going to start by asking someonein your personal life.
We're going to start learninghow to ask for things there.
We're going to start learningthat skill of self-advocacy
outside the workplace, so youstart to feel more confident
(25:03):
about it.
And we're going to look at otherthings in that outside part of
your life that you're not askingfor, that you want, that you
feel like you can't ask for, Andas you learn that it then
crosses over.
So it's one of the most elegantthings to learn because you
will use it everywhere.
And just like you said, it'snot and maybe, just like your
(25:23):
other guest said, it's not justabout how you talk about things.
I see it really as this way ofcreating trust and enriching
relationships and creating agreater sense of ease and relief
and safety in your life.
And that includes your work lifeand your non-professional life.
Amy (25:44):
Yes, because we go into work and oftentimes we look at
it as somewhat separate fromourselves, i think, and that's
partially for safety, because wedon't want to be too vulnerable
in a place, especially if we'renot familiar with it yet.
They say that the happiestpeople are ones that can combine
(26:06):
that and that enjoy what theydo, whether it's work or whether
it's a hobby, something likethat that they have that same
feeling instead of, okay, i'mgoing to gird myself up, i'm
going to go into work, i'm goingto be this separate person for
hopefully just eight hours, ifnot 10 or 12.
And then, okay, now I can restand garden or whatever it is I
(26:31):
like to do, and that's my trueself.
But people that can flow fromone to the other, and it sounds
like you're really helping themand supporting them in doing
that, and that's so important.
Kim (26:45):
Yeah, it's all about knowing that you have a choice,
so that you're I want to say,just like you're connected to
your own sense of agency and thefeeling that you get to decide
how you want to show up andchoose what works for you,
rather than feeling like thereare no options.
That's the thing I think isgreat, when you start developing
(27:08):
these communication skills inthis way and thinking about it a
little bit differently, isrealizing oh, i actually have a
lot more options.
Amy (27:17):
So it sounds like people get a lot more than they
bargained for, necessarily whenthey come to work with you.
Kim (27:23):
Yeah, I mean, I'm also a mindfulness teacher, so that's
really the foundation ofeverything I do.
And realizing that when you'redeveloping communication skills
and learning how to advocate foryourself and speak up, it can
feel really scary, especially ifyou're used to being really
good at things all the time Likea really perfectionist, high
(27:45):
achiever that can be some of thehardest inner critics.
And so, remembering that this isa process, having a lot of
grace and compassion foryourself as you're developing
these skills, realizing one ofthe big inner critic voices is I
should have been able to figurethis out already At my age.
(28:08):
Why is this hard?
And just remembering hey, it'sall good, like your
communication skills have gotyou here.
That's amazing.
And now we can add some newskills and we can also set down
the burden of the things thathaven't been working.
It's okay.
Amy (28:26):
So do a lot of people come in feeling kind of scared.
Kim (28:30):
I think they come in.
Yeah, I think feeling, you know, scared, but also just feeling
tired.
I think one of the things wedon't realize is that not
feeling like we can communicateeffectively or not feeling like
we can ask for things, itbecomes exhausting.
All of the ways that we thencompensate for that becomes
(28:55):
really exhausting.
And so I think when I see a lotof people are drawn to me, in
part because I have this reallycalming approach, calming energy
, I can definitely feel that.
Amy (29:11):
I can definitely feel that.
Kim (29:13):
Not a boot camp type coach That tends not to be how I work
But there's just this greatsense of relief of, oh, i don't
have to keep beating up onmyself for this.
It's like no we don't.
We can actually learn from aplace of great compassion and
kindness, and that will make thelearning easier and sustainable
and more fun And you know like,let's do it that way.
Amy (29:38):
That sounds like a wonderful way to do it.
That sounds wonderful.
Yeah, unfortunately, this iswhere we have to stop the
interview for today.
Kim, i can't thank you enoughfor being here.
Kim (29:51):
It has been such a pleasure .
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
Amy (29:55):
And thank you, audience, for being with us today.
If you have enjoyed the show,join the conversation yourself.
Go to wwwsavvycommunicatorcom.
And if you're interested infinding out more about Kim
Nicholl and her work, Kim, wherecan we reach you?
Kim (30:10):
Go to my podcast the new manager podcast.
And you can also go to mywebsite kimnichollcom.
Amy (30:18):
That's K-I-M-N-I-C-O-Lcom.
Thanks for joining us today atthe Savvy Communicator.
We'll see you next time.
Putting our own needs first can be difficult.
The pressure can be even higherat work.
Join us today as we discuss thebenefits of advocating for your
professional needs.
Hi and welcome to the SavvyCommunicator podcast.
This is a place where wediscuss all things communication
, but, most importantly, how totalk when you're not sure what
(00:21):
to say.
My expert guest today is KimNicol.
She is a life coach and a hostof the new Manager podcast.
Kim, thank you so much forbeing on the show today.
Kim (00:31):
I'm so glad to be here.
Amy (00:33):
So really glad to have you.
I am so interested in yourperspective on business and
especially women in business.
I just want to jump in.
Was there a particular time inyour career where you felt that
you really wanted to be a coach?
Kim (00:48):
I think I was doing a lot of teaching and coaching even
before I knew that that was athing that people did.
Even back when I was in school,I was volunteering at this
group to teach kids in highschool about the legal system.
When I finished and I was outworking, I ended up choosing
(01:10):
this other side job where I wasteaching movement and fitness
classes and then I was teachingmeditation classes.
So for me, there's always beenthis strong drive to share what
I know and to help others.
And then, when I learned aboutlearning and development, and
coaching and life coaching andall of the different ways that
(01:32):
you can help adults to learn andgrow in their life and at work.
I thought, oh, I want to dothat.
I didn't realize that was anoption.
That's a thing I want to knowabout that.
Let's do that.
Amy (01:44):
Yeah, oh, that's fantastic.
I know I had a similarexperience where it's just, you
know, you feel that you're in acertain bracket and then it's
like, no, i could be moreindividualized.
I can really talk about thisthing.
I can talk about why it's scaryto communicate with a patient
or something like that.
I want to do that all the time.
Yeah, and that's how I got intomy coaching area too.
(02:05):
That's really great.
Why do you think people needcoaching to ask for what they
want?
Kim (02:12):
No, I think that's such a great question.
Number one I didn't even knowthat you could have a coach to
help you do this until, I mean,I was probably well into my 30s.
I just like I didn't know aboutcoaching.
I think now coaching is so muchmore prevalent and it's more
available and accessible topeople, So I think it's a bigger
(02:33):
part of the conversation.
Yes.
Yes For learning how to ask forthings.
I think of it especially interms of advocacy, how to
advocate for yourself, how tospeak up for yourself.
And before you can do that,first you have to know what you
want, and a lot of times wedon't have clarity or we don't
really pause to think about whatdo I want.
(02:55):
With the folks that I oftenwork with, the mindset is I will
make do with what I have, andthat is a very resilient and
very resourceful mindset.
But when you're thinking onlyof I will make do with what I
have, then we're not thinkingabout what else is available.
(03:15):
Is there a resource I can askfor?
And so coaching is so much aboutthat mindset work of learning.
How are you seeing the world,how are you thinking about
things?
And that's really hard for usto do on our own because it's
like we don't see our own blindspots.
So I think it's really coolthat coaching now is so much
(03:37):
more available and more peopleknow about it.
And then around communicationand speaking up for yourself and
asking for what you want.
It can be scary if you havealways felt like I can't ask for
what I want.
I need to make do with what Ihave.
I'm a worried that if I ask forsomething that will reflect
(03:59):
badly on me, i know that's aninternal story a lot of the
folks I work with in Coach Face,and so it really becomes
valuable to say okay, i am goingto choose some dedicated time
for learning and development.
And then to know you can have acoach to help you with that to
learn how to communicate andfeel more confident, to get more
(04:22):
clarity about what you want andfeel okay wanting things.
To feel like it doesn't makeyou less, because you want
something more.
Amy (04:31):
Mm-hmm.
Well, i'm really resonatingwith everything you have to say,
because you're absolutely right.
So much of communication isjust we think, well, i have to
say this, so I'll just plunge inand say it.
And it's very scary because alot of times it doesn't work and
(04:53):
that's frightening on its ownAnd we're like, well, i'm not
going to do that again, i'mcertainly not going to ask for
what I need when it went sobadly.
And sometimes, if it goes well,we're not sure how we did it,
and then we're afraid to do itagain, because then it might not
work.
Yeah, i work with a lot ofdoctors on communication,
because that's something else.
That's a field where, untilrecently, they weren't paying
(05:15):
attention to communication atall.
It was like, well, i need totell the patient this, so I'll
tell it.
And it was damaging to patientsand to the doctors because they
didn't know what they weredoing either, And so they had
those terrible experiences too.
And now it's becoming much moreokay to practice, to say I
(05:38):
would like to tell you this.
May I sit down?
How would you like me toaddress you?
This is what I'd like to talkabout, whereas before it was not
, and thankfully we're startingto see that improvement.
So it's just interesting.
I'm just seeing a lot ofparallels.
Kim (05:55):
I love everything you're saying because I think like I
work with folks in a lot ofdifferent industries.
And one of the things I seeconsistently is that when we
improve and develop how wecommunicate, when we see
communication not as about ourpersonality, but more like a
skill that we can continue todevelop and get better at, it
(06:17):
has so many positive effects inthe workplace.
When communication is notskillful And again, it's not
about someone being a bad person, it's just this idea that you
might be really smart, you mightbe really good at the thing you
do, but if you don't have thecommunication skills to work
(06:38):
effectively with other humans,then, everything gets harder.
Amy (06:43):
Yes, yes, and I think that having the realization that
everybody that you know reallyone of the frustrating things
about communication is that it'sdifferent every time.
You know it's not likebasketball, where you can
perfect a layup or a free throwEvery single time.
It's different because everysingle person is different, and
(07:04):
so learning how to kind of rollwith the punches and be true to
yourself This is how I do it,this is how I'm going to ask for
this, but understanding that itmight be different for one
person versus next It's soindividual, i think is just.
You know, i find it fascinating.
I'm glad you do too, because wejust get out together over it.
(07:27):
It's really great.
Yeah, yeah, no-transcript.
Are our expectations just toolow in general, especially as
women?
Kim (07:37):
in the workplace.
I think that is such a goodquestion And the way I think
about it is our expectations are, I feel like, not so much low
to high, but our expectationsare always informed by certain
things.
Our expectations are informedby our past, by the examples of
(08:00):
other people that we've seen.
Our expectations are informedby what other people have told
us about what's possible oravailable and we might have
decided to believe them.
So our expectations, I thinkthe thing we forget is that
there are always morealternatives available than we
(08:21):
realize.
And.
I sort of think of it, like youknow.
So if you look across thehorizon, you have a horizon line
and we're often looking forwardand we don't realize that
there's actually more around usthan we can ever ever see.
So as you take a step forward,what comes into your peripheral
(08:42):
vision begins to change and yourhorizon line begins to change.
So I think sometimes it's likewe stand and we look around and
we say this is what's available.
So I'll base my expectations onwhat I can currently see and
what I know, And we forget thatas we engage with the world and
(09:03):
as we start to question some ofthose assumptions, our
expectations can change.
I think sometimes we're just abit rigid with them And we
forget that there's actuallymore.
Amy (09:17):
Yeah, I completely understand where you're coming
from.
On that, I know I myself havebeen very rigid in expectations
and it took, you know, becauseit would be like you know, you'd
ask for this, they'd say no,they'd give whatever reason.
You'd be like, well, I guessthat's how it is forever And I
wouldn't ask for it again.
And I remember, finally, I wasbound to, determined to go to
(09:40):
this conference and I reallywanted to go.
And so I set a goal that Iwould try to go two years from
that day.
And I asked seven times.
You know, once every three orfour months, I said I really
like to go to this conference.
No, no, no, no, no.
And I decided I'm going to keepasking until I move to a
(10:02):
different job or until I get togo, And I'm not telling the
story to be like hey, look at me, I really did an amazing thing,
But just you know it.
Suddenly I was able to havemore perspective and able to do
exactly what you're saying thinkabout things around me.
So I think that's a beautifulimage, Yeah.
Kim (10:22):
Well, and I love your story because that also is making me
think of a couple of things.
One is that we often think wehave to ask, we get one shot to
ask and if it's a no, thenthat's over.
And so that puts on so muchpressure, that feeling of I have
to ask in the right way inorder to get the answer that I
want.
And then if someone says no, itfeels so bad And, just like you
(10:44):
said, it's like, well, i'llnever do that again.
And for so many of us.
Our experience of asking forthings happened initially when
we were tiny humans asking bighumans for things.
So I think we kind of carryalong this power dynamic feeling
where the moment we feel likewe're going to ask for something
, we feel like a worried littlekid.
(11:06):
I hope you say yes, yeah, andit's like we completely lose
sight of who we are, that we arecompetent adults, and that
early emotional feeling getsactivated and it can really
interfere with how we make thatask.
And your story reminded me Ihad a client And so on my
(11:27):
podcast I talk a lot aboutself-advocacy at work, yes, and
specifically how to ask forprofessional development
resources, whether that's justlike you were saying, i want to
go to a conference or I want todo a program to learn more, to
make myself better at work.
And I had a client who hadwanted to work with me and had
(11:52):
wanted her company to pay forher to work with me on
leadership and becoming a bettermanager in all of this.
And so what she did was shestarted to do some research.
She's like OK, what is ourcurrent professional development
budget?
She realized that it was notenough to cover the fee to work
with me.
But she started to advocate forherself, talking to her manager,
(12:16):
making the conversation of OK,here's my plan for professional
development, Here's what I wantto work on, Here's how it
connects to my current andfuture job responsibilities.
So she's helping her manager tounderstand the value of her ask
even before she makes that ask.
(12:37):
And she started to also thenfind out well, are there other
exceptions that we've made inthe past for other kinds of
learning and development things?
Because sometimes resources areflexible.
People have discretion toapprove things beyond what the
policy is.
So because she was thinking inthis strategic, long-term way
(12:59):
and she just knew I want this,why not ask for it?
Let me think about how to do itin a way that doesn't feel
scary.
All or nothing.
She had a plan And at the endshe was able to make it work.
So I love that, because hercompany now gets a more skilled,
trained person.
(13:20):
She gets the benefit of thework And it's like everyone can
win.
It can actually work out inthis really beautiful way.
Amy (13:28):
Yes, Yes, i really agree with what you're saying.
And it's funny.
I've been on the flip side too,where I've been in training and
whoever it is comes and saysyou have X amount of money for
professional development.
This is for people to doexactly that to buy some
(13:49):
learning materials or go to aconference or whatever, and then
and nobody comes and asks Andwe weren't very good at going
out and saying, by the way, youcan do this So I think you
bridge a very important gap,because you're letting people
know not only that it's there,but that it's within their grasp
(14:10):
.
Kim (14:11):
I love hearing you say that too, because what I often tell
people is there might be moneyallocated for learning and
development, and if you're notasking for it, that's actually a
problem because, it's someone'sjob to spend that money in a
specific way And if you're notasking, that's actually a
problem for them, because nowthey have to figure out what's
(14:32):
going to happen.
And it's like you might actuallybe helping someone do their job
by raising your hand and saying, hey, there's a conference I
want, there's a coach I want towork with, there's some learning
materials that will help me.
It's a completely differentmindset versus one of the
reasons I see why people don'task is because they're afraid
that it will show I'm not goodenough at my job.
Amy (14:56):
If I was good enough.
Kim (14:57):
I wouldn't need that extra training.
They feel like it's a sign oftheir deficiency rather than a
sign of their ambition and theirresourcefulness and being
really responsible and drivingtheir own career growth.
They don't see it in thatpositive light, so yeah, so
that's really.
Amy (15:17):
Yeah.
I really appreciate thatperspective because, you're
right, somebody is sitting thereand maybe if they don't spend
it, then they get less the nextyear, because I've been in
situations where that happensAnd then, instead of running
around at the end of the fiscalyear trying to buy pencils or
whatever it is, you can spendthat in a way and show that it
(15:37):
is needed.
You're right, you have thatstrength and confidence in
yourself to be able to do that.
Yeah, and I've been on bothsides of that.
Kim (15:50):
So yeah, and I feel like part of what that also speaks to
.
You can also start with a smallask, so sometimes people think,
oh, i have to wait until it'ssomething really big to ask for.
But, if you think of speakingup is a skill that you can
develop, and so start practicingwith things that seem small,
(16:11):
because that will help you togain that confidence.
It won't feel so bad if they sayno but you'll start practicing
that skill of speaking up on thesmaller things, so that you
feel more equipped for the bigthings.
Amy (16:25):
I have taught a course in the past about setting
boundaries, both as a patientand as a physician, and we do
the exact same thing.
Instead of saying you know it'sa small ask, you can say it's a
small boundary.
You can say I'm going to leavewithin five minutes of this time
, and you try to do it.
(16:47):
And then you say I'm going toleave at 12 pm, and you don't
try to do it, you do it.
You just walk out and find outwhat happens.
You know, sometimes there mightbe an emergency that pulls you
back.
Sometimes there isn't, and thenyou have gotten your goal, and
that's really important.
Kim, i wanted to ask you if youcould give tips to our
(17:12):
listeners on how to ask for whatthey want.
You know, we've talked aboutconfidence, we've talked about
starting with a small ask.
We've talked, you know,realizing that the resources are
probably there.
But if you could give a fewtips to our listeners, what
would you suggest?
Kim (17:29):
First, think about what it is that you want.
Think about why asking mightactually be helpful, not just
for you because you might get it, but think about how you
getting what you want actuallyhelps other people.
So, for example, there wassomeone who wrote to me and said
(17:51):
that she was really, reallytall and she didn't have a chair
that fit her body.
And she, you know, thought, oh,i just have to deal with it, i
just have to deal with the chairthat I have.
And as she thought about it,she's like okay, i actually want
a chair that fits my body.
And then she thought, well, andactually, if I have a chair
that fits my body, then I willhave more energy, i will feel
(18:14):
more comfortable, i'll be ableto be more productive, it will
help me do the work that I'mhere to do.
And then she also thought well,you know, maybe there's
actually budget for this kind ofthing.
I don't actually know.
Maybe it will help someone tofeel like they're improving
workplace ergonomic, somethingor other.
So she started to be curiousabout how can other people
(18:37):
benefit from me asking.
And, as a side note, sometimeswe have such a hard time
speaking up for ourselves.
Amy (18:44):
But when we?
Kim (18:44):
think that it's going to help others.
It makes it so much easier.
So she thought about it in thatlight And then she went ahead
and made the ask.
She reached out to her HRpartner and said hey, you know,
i'm wondering, can I get adifferent chair?
I'm really tall And, by the way, like we're all, so many of us
are work from home, so nobodyactually knows how, what bodies
(19:06):
we have.
We just see the faces.
So her HR person didn't knowAnd, as it turns out, they're
like oh yeah, of course, noproblem at all.
And she got this chair.
And so this idea of Know whatyou want, think about how it
might help somebody else for youto make this ask.
Amy (19:28):
That's a really good point.
We're going to take a quickbreak.
We're talking with Kim Nicol.
We'll be right back.
Kim (19:39):
The third thing is think of it as a skill, something that
you can get better at, so it'snot like so much risk, so much
at stake.
It's a thing you're going tolearn how to do Yes, right, and
you know that.
You've learned how to do thingsbefore.
You have learned lots of otherkinds of skills You are good at
(20:01):
learning hoping to remindyourself of that, and I guess
the last thing too, is to thinkof it not like being a little
kid asking for something fromyour parents, which often I
think is kind of our defaultbackground image whenever we're
asking something of someone whoseems like they have greater
authority or power but, insteadthink of it as coming in as a
(20:26):
thought partner, and that ismore like we're coming in at the
same level.
I'm making an ask because I'mtaking responsibility for my
work and for my life, and I'mgoing to make your job easier
because, I'm going to speak upand ask for this thing And that,
i think, brings us out of thatinitial feeling of oh, i hope
(20:49):
this authority figure says yesto me.
And it actually kind of helpsus level up in our mind and feel
a little bit more like thatfull empowered, capable adult
that you are.
Amy (21:03):
You have a coaching business that's really dedicated
just to this.
Would you mind telling us alittle bit about it?
Kim (21:08):
Oh, happy to.
So I'm a life coach and I workwith a lot of new managers, and
so what that usually looks likeis someone is promoted or they
move into a new job and theyhave a new team, and then
there's all of the fear, all theuncertainty, all of the self
judgment, all of the self doubtflares up Anytime we're growing,
(21:31):
anytime we're doing somethingwe've never done before, and
when we start moving into higherlevels of leadership, what
happens, too, is you have morepeople looking to you.
You've got your team plus thefolks above you, so there can
feel like there's more pressure,more visibility, at the same
exact time that you're doing ajob that maybe you've never done
(21:51):
before, because, for example,being a really great salesperson
is a really different job thanmanaging a team of salespeople.
Yes, right.
And so I do a lot of coachingand supportive folks when
they're at that initial stage ofleadership in their careers.
(22:12):
And it often also includes somuch of what's happening in your
life.
Because, when we're not happyat work.
Everyone else in our life willhear about it.
Amy (22:22):
Yes.
Kim (22:25):
And, conversely, for having a really hard time in our
private life.
That definitely shows up in howwe're able to be at work.
So I really want humans to feelsupported and have the
resources they need to reallyexcel and feel satisfied in
their work, so they can alsofeel really great in the rest of
their lives too.
Amy (22:45):
Wow, that's so necessary And I just love how you're
focusing on it.
Not just to achieve this goalbecause it can be achieved,
because some people might stopthere, be like I'll teach you
how to achieve this goal.
You achieved it, thank you verymuch, but you're going on and
(23:09):
saying this has to do with yourlife, this has to do with your
quality of life, because youwant to be happy in both places.
I had a wonderful conversationwith another guest a few weeks
ago And what she said aboutcommunication was that when we
think it's just about talkingand we think it's just about to
get things that we want to need,but when we don't get them, we
(23:32):
also communicate.
And it might be that wecommunicate through doing some
things that we wouldn't normallydo.
Sometimes it's by not doingthings that we would normally do
, and sometimes it's verbal andsometimes it's body language,
but we do communicate either waywhen things are going well and
when they're not going well.
Kim (23:53):
That is so true.
Amy (23:55):
And just so you taking it that extra step to make sure
that they're going to becommunicating that good energy
and those positive outcomes.
I think is really neat.
Kim (24:11):
Yeah, this is what's so great, is that okay?
So communication skills you usein every area of your life.
And so what's really cool isthat whatever you learn, that
will help you at work, it willhelp you elsewhere.
If you're learning how to askfor a chair at work, then that
will also help you to ask theperson you live with for
(24:34):
something you need that couldmake the relationship better,
for example, right.
Amy (24:40):
Like.
This is the beauty of it.
Kim (24:41):
And like learning sometimes with folks and they think, oh,
I can't ask at work becausethat's too high a risk And I've
got to really get it just rightAnd it's like great, Then we're
going to start by asking someonein your personal life.
We're going to start learninghow to ask for things there.
We're going to start learningthat skill of self-advocacy
outside the workplace, so youstart to feel more confident
(25:03):
about it.
And we're going to look at otherthings in that outside part of
your life that you're not askingfor, that you want, that you
feel like you can't ask for, Andas you learn that it then
crosses over.
So it's one of the most elegantthings to learn because you
will use it everywhere.
And just like you said, it'snot and maybe, just like your
(25:23):
other guest said, it's not justabout how you talk about things.
I see it really as this way ofcreating trust and enriching
relationships and creating agreater sense of ease and relief
and safety in your life.
And that includes your work lifeand your non-professional life.
Amy (25:44):
Yes, because we go into work and oftentimes we look at
it as somewhat separate fromourselves, i think, and that's
partially for safety, because wedon't want to be too vulnerable
in a place, especially if we'renot familiar with it yet.
They say that the happiestpeople are ones that can combine
(26:06):
that and that enjoy what theydo, whether it's work or whether
it's a hobby, something likethat that they have that same
feeling instead of, okay, i'mgoing to gird myself up, i'm
going to go into work, i'm goingto be this separate person for
hopefully just eight hours, ifnot 10 or 12.
And then, okay, now I can restand garden or whatever it is I
(26:31):
like to do, and that's my trueself.
But people that can flow fromone to the other, and it sounds
like you're really helping themand supporting them in doing
that, and that's so important.
Kim (26:45):
Yeah, it's all about knowing that you have a choice,
so that you're I want to say,just like you're connected to
your own sense of agency and thefeeling that you get to decide
how you want to show up andchoose what works for you,
rather than feeling like thereare no options.
That's the thing I think isgreat, when you start developing
(27:08):
these communication skills inthis way and thinking about it a
little bit differently, isrealizing oh, i actually have a
lot more options.
Amy (27:17):
So it sounds like people get a lot more than they
bargained for, necessarily whenthey come to work with you.
Kim (27:23):
Yeah, I mean, I'm also a mindfulness teacher, so that's
really the foundation ofeverything I do.
And realizing that when you'redeveloping communication skills
and learning how to advocate foryourself and speak up, it can
feel really scary, especially ifyou're used to being really
good at things all the time Likea really perfectionist, high
(27:45):
achiever that can be some of thehardest inner critics.
And so, remembering that this isa process, having a lot of
grace and compassion foryourself as you're developing
these skills, realizing one ofthe big inner critic voices is I
should have been able to figurethis out already At my age.
(28:08):
Why is this hard?
And just remembering hey, it'sall good, like your
communication skills have gotyou here.
That's amazing.
And now we can add some newskills and we can also set down
the burden of the things thathaven't been working.
It's okay.
Amy (28:26):
So do a lot of people come in feeling kind of scared.
Kim (28:30):
I think they come in.
Yeah, I think feeling, you know, scared, but also just feeling
tired.
I think one of the things wedon't realize is that not
feeling like we can communicateeffectively or not feeling like
we can ask for things, itbecomes exhausting.
All of the ways that we thencompensate for that becomes
(28:55):
really exhausting.
And so I think when I see a lotof people are drawn to me, in
part because I have this reallycalming approach, calming energy
, I can definitely feel that.
Amy (29:11):
I can definitely feel that.
Kim (29:13):
Not a boot camp type coach That tends not to be how I work
But there's just this greatsense of relief of, oh, i don't
have to keep beating up onmyself for this.
It's like no we don't.
We can actually learn from aplace of great compassion and
kindness, and that will make thelearning easier and sustainable
and more fun And you know like,let's do it that way.
Amy (29:38):
That sounds like a wonderful way to do it.
That sounds wonderful.
Yeah, unfortunately, this iswhere we have to stop the
interview for today.
Kim, i can't thank you enoughfor being here.
Kim (29:51):
It has been such a pleasure .
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
Amy (29:55):
And thank you, audience, for being with us today.
If you have enjoyed the show,join the conversation yourself.
Go to wwwsavvycommunicatorcom.
And if you're interested infinding out more about Kim
Nicholl and her work, Kim, wherecan we reach you?
Kim (30:10):
Go to my podcast the new manager podcast.
And you can also go to mywebsite kimnichollcom.
Amy (30:18):
That's K-I-M-N-I-C-O-Lcom.
Thanks for joining us today atthe Savvy Communicator.
We'll see you next time.
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