Devah Curlechéile: How Conscious Touch Regulates the Nervous System & Rewires Trauma in Your Body | #156 - The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Willow (00:03):
What if the intimacy you crave isn't just about pleasure,
but about healing parts ofyourself you didn't even know
were wounded.
I'm Dr.
Willa Brown.
I'm here with Leah Piper.
We are the co-host of the SexReimagined podcast, and we're so
excited to introduce you todayto Devah, a sensual remembrance

(00:25):
coach who works privately withindividuals from all over the
world, helping his clientssexually heal, not from a place
of needing to fix something, buta gentle awakening into what's
always existed deep within.

Leah (00:40):
You are hopefully a long, longtime listener so you know
what's coming up next.
But if you are a new listener,please everybody all at once,
all together now tune in, turnon, and fall in love with Devah.

Announcer (00:53):
Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is
shame-free and pleasure forward.
Let's get into the show.

Leah (01:03):
Devah

Willow (01:04):
We're so excited that you're here.
This has been a long time comingthis interview, so, um, we're
just thrilled to have youwelcome from, uh, Kauai.

Devah (01:13):
Thank you and thank you both for having me.
It's great to be here with twoamazing leaders of the sacred
sexuality world and healing artsworld.
So thank you very much forhaving me on.

Willow (01:23):
Yeah.
We're so stoked.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat got you into, like, tell us
your, genesis story.
What got you into doing thiswork in the first place?

Devah (01:34):
Ever since I was young, had my first, we didn't make, we
didn't have sex, but I had myfirst kind of physically
intimate partner when I was 16years old.
And I remember from that time itwas also before porn was in
Ireland.
There was no internet in Irelandat that time, so I had no
exposure to porn and we just hadto kind of figure things out on
our own.
And I remember always wanting toknow how to be better and how to

(01:55):
be a better lover.
And I carried that.
Kind of curiosity through mylife, I think.
And uh, in 2009, I broke my backand I was in bed for two months,
so I thought, what am I gonna doin bed for two months?
And I, someone, someone,

Willow (02:11):
You found something to play with.

Leah (02:13):
I was not expecting that turn.
That is so cute.
I broke my back, so I went anddid a deep dive on how to be a
great lover.

Devah (02:22):
A, a, a previous lover earlier in my life had
introduced the Dao of sexologyto me, that book and then the
book, the Multiorgasmic man.
But at the time, I wasn't readyto receive it, the information,
and I kind of dismissed it.
And just whenever I broke myback and I was in bed, it came
back into my awareness and Idownloaded the, the PDF online
or read the books and startedpracticing basically, and had my

(02:45):
first self-pleasure practice inbed with my brace all over my
chest.
Unable to breathe fully, but Iwas touching myself with oil and
really understanding how toconnect with myself in the ways
that I've been trying to connectwith my lovers.
And, uh, I had already just beenattuned in reiki the year
before, so I had already kind offound an energetic attunement at

(03:06):
that point in my life.

Leah (03:08):
And how old were you when the accident happened?
The, I might have missed that.
27.
Okay.
And then I, I have a follow upquestion, which is, what was it
like growing up in Ireland whenit comes to coming of age
sexually and like culturallywhat's changed?
What stayed the same?
You know, growing up in the USin the Midwest, she's on the

(03:31):
west coast in California, but weboth grew up Catholic for part
of my childhood, for all of herchildhood.
Did you also grow up Catholic?
Like I'm starting to get allthese cultural questions just
like streaming into myconsciousness.
So I'd love for you to share alittle bit about what the sexual
temperature's like in Ireland.

Devah (03:48):
Now it's pretty good.
I think, you know, um, when Iwas, I never saw two men holding
hands or kissing when I wasyoung.

Willow (03:56):
Mm.

Devah (03:57):
By the time I left Ireland when I was 25, I had
seen men kissing on the streetone time.

Leah (04:03):
Well,

Devah (04:04):
Yeah.
So the expression of gayness orhomosexuality or same sex
attraction, all of that, I neverhad any exposure to it.
And I went to a boarding schoolwhere it was, uh, you know,
people were, if someone didsomething, how do I say it?
Like undesirable or bad, peoplewould say, oh, that's gay

Leah (04:26):
Uhhuh

Devah (04:27):
So the word gay was associated with negativity.
Yeah, exactly.
And uh, also just, you know,catholicism and shame around
sexuality and everything'shidden in, behind closed doors.
And, you know,

Willow (04:40):
If you do it, you're a slut and you know you're shamed.

Devah (04:44):
exactly.
exactly.
And all of those things.
I was raised in a house where Ifeel my exploration was mostly
supportive.
Not, it wouldn't have beensupportive with men, but it was
with women.
So there was no kind ofreligious guilt or not, not an
intense amount of religiousguilt that came from my parents,
but out in the world it wasstill there.
That programming and how other,how my peers reacted to

(05:05):
sexuality, you know, left animprint on me and I had to work
through all of those differentthings on my, on my journey into
sexual embodiment basically.

Willow (05:13):
do you, identify as as bisexual

Devah (05:17):
I try not to identify myself, but I do.
Yeah, exactly.
would say, I would saypansexual, if anything at all,
and I just see people's soulsand their essence and that that
attracts me kind of thing.
Mm-hmm.

Leah (05:29):
And were.

Willow (05:29):
long did it take you to like, come into that, like
sovereignty of holding thatlike, I, I just am attracted to
souls.
Like, you know, there's such ajourney of like exploring
different genders and sexualityand all the pieces.

Devah (05:43):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think one of the biggestpieces for me personally was
just trying to understand if Idid enjoy being intimate with,
with men or not.
'cause being intimate with menand being intimate with women is
a whole different journey.
There were, you know, my firstever intimate experience with a
man was amazing.

(06:04):
And then the next few, likefive, six, I was just kinda
like, I'd rather just stay athome and, you know, pleasure
myself.
I don't see the point, why wouldI do this?
And then I thought to myselfexactly.
And then when it wasn'tenjoyable, I, I thought, oh, I
must be straight.
So I had this confusing journeyof, oh, oh, I had this
connection with a man, and thenit, I didn't feel it for a

(06:24):
while.
But I was kind of consistentlyfeeling connection with women.
So it would, it would confuseme, am I, do I like women?
And then I'd have a really goodexperience with, with a man I'd,
yeah, sorry.
Do I like men?
And then I'd have a really goodexperience with a man and I'd be
like, oh, does this mean I'mgay?
And then I'd, I'd swing back andforth between the two sort of
thing until,

Willow (06:43):
So you had a whole journey of that?

Devah (06:45):
exactly.
And what kept me going was, canI love a man the way I love a
woman?
Or can Yeah.
Can I experience that sense ofunion in love making the way
that I experience it with women,kind of thing.
And eventually I discovered thatI could.
So yeah.
And it's, it's my journey withmen and how dynamic that was,

(07:08):
that has also been one of themotivating factors in me
stepping into this work andwanting to, you know.
Many women have asked me, canyou please teach men what you
know at this point in myjourney, I've made loads of
mistakes in the past, don't getme wrong, on my own learning
path.
'cause I didn't have a mentorand I didn't have a guide, so I
had to figure it out myself.
But, but um, yeah, I have adesire now at this point with

(07:31):
what I know to share that withthe world sort of thing.

Leah (07:33):
What is it that women want you to teach other men?

Willow (07:36):
Yeah, that was my question.
Like what's the theme that yousee men needing

Leah (07:41):
questions?
I wanna hear from the, I wannahear the words of the women to
you of going, what is it exactlythat they want you to tell men?
What is it that you have thatthey don't think men have up?

Willow (07:53):
There you go.

Devah (07:54):
The number one thing I hear from people is, I've never
been touched like that before.

Willow (07:59):
Hmm

Devah (08:01):
So that's the main thing that I would like to share with
people is how to share touch.
Yeah, exactly.
In a way that's, that createsintimacy, safety, connection,
and a desire for both parties tocontinue connecting

Willow (08:16):
Mm-hmm.

Devah (08:16):
authentically.

Leah (08:17):
So can you des and this, this, what we're asking is hard
to articulate.
So I wanna like just prefacethese next series of questions
knowing that if it was easy toarticulate, everyone would know
it.
Um, but I think it's importantas educators, as we figure out
the language so that someonewho's hearing this can actually

(08:38):
start to orient to their owntouch.
How do I make this touch safer,more conscious?
You said a bunch of beautifulwords.
So, um, what would you say is adistinction that someone could
maybe shift in how they'retouching that maybe they haven't
realized yet that would givesomeone that feeling of, I'm

(08:59):
opening to this person's touchversus this resistance to
someone's touch.

Devah (09:05):
that's such a long answered question there.
'cause as you, as you bothexperience getting to the touch,
half of that equation, if notmore than half of that equation,
you know, so.

Willow (09:18):
Absolutely.
There's so much resistance tolike, you know, touching people
sexually and sensually and, and,and so much, um, uncertainty in
not knowing if you're doing itright.
And, um, I feel like one thingI'm constantly teaching men is
like, you gotta make your handsmagnetic.
You wanna make her come to you,like, stop coming at her with
your fingertips.

(09:39):
That's not hot, it doesn't work,you know?

Devah (09:43):
And I, so before, before even moving into touch though,
there's, you know, elements likepresence,

Leah (09:49):
Mm-hmm.

Devah (09:50):
just being present with someone and active listening and
getting curious and wanting toknow more about the other
person.
And being slow, super slow andpresent and calm so that there
can be regulation found innervous systems before we move
into any form of physical touchor intimacy.

Leah (10:09):
Well, those are really great places for us to kind of
touch into is, um, being calmand how hard that can be,
especially if you're likeexcited,

Devah (10:21):
Mm-hmm.

Leah (10:21):
you know, or you're feeling anxious, like either
you're excited about theconnection that you're hoping to
achieve, you are nervous thatyou might fail.
There's anxiety that's just sortof natural regarding, you know,
feeling flirtatious.
And then there's also socialanxiety that can be really
debilitating for people whodon't feel like they're good at
this kind of thing.
Um, escalating intimacy.

(10:43):
And so I'm, I'm curious, likehow do you help an individual?
Um, we could use men in thisexample to just kind of slow
down.

Devah (10:55):
Uh, a starting point is just making men aware of the
language around how men relatewith women and how men relate
with each other as well.
But there's all, there's all ofthese words such as, did you get
some,

Willow (11:09):
Right,

Devah (11:10):
did you give, her an orgasm?
Yeah.
Did you get laid?

Willow (11:14):
right.
It's all about what did you get,what did you, what did you give?
Not what did you offer?
Like

Devah (11:20):
yeah.
Or what

Willow (11:20):
what?
What did you experience?
Yeah.

Devah (11:23):
Exactly.

Leah (11:23):
did you co-create?
Yeah, say more.

Devah (11:26):
Yeah.
So just within that, that's thefirst awareness is are you going
at this whole experience tryingto get something out of it?
Because women, and, and a lot ofmen as well, are just very, very
attuned to the subtleties of anenergetic dy dynamic.
And if that's in the air, butit's not being spoken of, it's
already being felt and it'sgonna create some layer of

(11:48):
distance or mistrust or a lackof safety within the, within the
experience that's being shared.
So first of all, just, uh,helping a man to understand
because the patriarchy hassometimes objectified women that
our partner is not something tobe used or to get an experience
out of or to Yeah, just to get,get something from, uh, you

(12:11):
know, we can, we're about tostep into an experience that can
be beautiful for both of us,healing for both of us, deeply
intimate for both of us, and wecan both share that together.
It's something that we bothconsensually agree to share
together.
And then there's consent aswell.

Leah (12:28):
I love that, introducing that as a, as a cultural shift
in framework.
Um, that there's a differentexperience that we're missing
out on when we're only comingfrom, um, these benchmarks of
having like reached certaindestinations in sex.

(12:49):
I mean, one of the perfectexamples of that is did you hit
first second base, or a homerun?
You know, I mean, how many of usare raised with that idea to
identify our initiations insexuality per partner?
And then we are either adequateor inadequate depending on what

(13:10):
we achieve as like what the goalis.
And we're not even sitting witha partner to talk about shared
goals or desires to explore.
So really interesting.

Willow (13:21):
Yeah, and I think what you're talking about David, too,
like just getting someone'snervous system to drop into a
more receptive, open state,dropping them into maybe a level
of presence that they've notExperienced before that they
rarely experience, um, is partof what sets the tone for a more

(13:42):
healing journey for them.
Because not only are we, whenwe're doing sexual healing,
we're healing on every singlelevel of what it means to be a
human being.
It's physical.
Yes.
But it's psychological.
It's emotional and it'sspiritual too.
And so, you know, I feel likewhat you're, what you're
speaking to, like even beforetouch, you know, just getting,

(14:03):
getting really attuned withsomebody and being able to
attune to yourself so that youcan attune to the other more
fully, um, really, really lays afoundation for, you know, the
alchemy of healing withinsexuality.
And I'd love to hear from youlike why that, why that is so

(14:25):
transformational.
'Cause I mean, I know you seeyour clients just completely do
full one eighties, likecompletely transformed.
So.

Devah (14:36):
Um, if we consider how intimacy floods the brain with
oxytocin and serotonin and allof these beautiful, uh,
neurotransmitters that have todo with connection and joy and
happiness and ecstaticexperience of life, that's also
what happens when we takepsychedelics.
If you think about it.
So when people take mushrooms,when people take MDMA, when

(14:58):
people take other psychedelics,it's the same experience that
their brain gets flooded withthe, with the serotonin.
And we all have seen researchrecently that these therapies
are, you know, gainingrecognition in professional
fields and how effective they'vebeen.
And sex is a way that we can dothat without the psychedelics.
I'm not, I'm not saying that wedon't need psychedelics.
I really, I think psychedelicsare great as well, and a great

(15:20):
form of therapy if someonechooses that, that path.
And also true relaxation andconnection and intimacy.
We can also reach those stateswhere the brain is flooded with
oxytocin and serotonin.
And we can have this similar,similar journeys that as we
would in psychedelics and withinthat state when we're feeling so
much relaxation and calm andexpansion, um, things that are

(15:45):
suppressed and stored in ournervous system have space to
arise.
So if we're constantly puttinginput into our nervous system
and receiving and receiving andreceiving, and we're not giving
ourselves time and space toexperience the emotions that are
happening in our nervous system,they sort of have to get buried,
let's say, so that we can keepon processing the world.
Or maybe we're working and wedon't have time to have a nap,

(16:06):
or we don't have time to, uh,get angry at something that
happens out in the world and wejust have to push that down and
get on with our on, with ourlives.
All of that gets kind ofsuppressed.
But in these super expanded,relaxed states full of serotonin
and oxytocin and dopamine in ourbrains, there's an opportunity
for our nervous systems tothink, wow, you know, this is

(16:27):
fine.
I feel super relaxed, very open.
So now there's spaciousness forwhatever suppressed emotion
wants to come out to be a ariseto, to be felt and move through.
So that could be frustration,that could be anger, that could
be tears of joy, tears ofsadness.
That could be, you know so many,so many different emotional

(16:50):
experiences, and that's one ofthe things that's created within
sacred sexual healing containersis this atmosphere of complete
acceptance.
That intimacy and pleasuredoesn't have to take The role
that we see in Hollywood moviesof passionate foreplay rumble in
the bed orgasm, whoa, that wasamazing.
It doesn't have to be so linearand predictable every single

(17:12):
time.
There can be space for all ofthe emotional experiences, the
full spectrum of the humanemotional experience to arise.
And we can hold each other inthat and help each other to
express what's suppressing ournervous system, to heal what's
suppressing the nervous systemand to move through that and
coming out with a more regulatednervous system and a a camera
baseline.

Leah (17:34):
Beautiful.
Yeah.
so what would you say, uh, youwork with both men and women?

Devah (17:42):
I do.
Yeah.

Leah (17:43):
Uh, do you work with couples too, too, or just
individuals?
I.

Devah (17:47):
I do, I work with people of all sexual, uh, identities
and orientations and couples andsingles.

Leah (17:55):
so I'm, I'm sure there's lots of people listening, going,
like, what does a session withDevah look like?
Like, is everyone getting naked?
Is it just on the phone?
How does he invoke this healingexperience?
What, what kind of questions areyou asking them, like, about
their story?
So take us through like theprocess of someone contacting

(18:15):
you for the first time, and thenhow you work with someone kind
of from start to finish.

Devah (18:20):
Okay.
Well, it depends, you know,that's very subjective.
It depends person to person.
Um, there's a form

Leah (18:26):
Let's make, can I, can I make up a, a, a person?

Willow (18:30):
Make up a person.

Leah (18:31):
Yeah.
Okay.
So there's, well, first, there'sa form on your website, so if
someone's curious, it wouldfirst contact you on this form,
right?
And that would be like anintake.
Yeah.
Okay.
So this woman, her name is MaryJo, and she is 54 years old.
Um, she's got three kids.
One's in college, the other twoare in high school.

(18:51):
Um, she's going through ahorrendous divorce.
She hates her body.
She is, feels like the life hasbeen sucked out of her.
Things are going pretty well ather job, but she just feels
worthless since her 25 yearmarriage has started to dissolve
and she's worried about her kidsand she's worried that she's
also gonna be empty nesting likeany second.

(19:12):
And will anyone ever find herdesirable again?
Also, she's never really hadgreat sexual experiences.
Like maybe she's had one or twoorgasms.

Willow (19:22):
Oh, good, good.
Uh, persona you created thereoff the top of your head.
Well done Leah.

Leah (19:30):
I've met this woman many times.

Willow (19:32):
have you now.
Okay.

Devah (19:35):
So we first would have a call and just schedule a time
that works well for both of us.
And I would try and encourageher to have time in a space that
she won't be interrupted if shehas a busy life with her
children.
So we'll line that up and themain purpose of the call is for
the person that I'm working withor this woman, what's her name?

Leah (19:55):
Mary Jo.

Devah (19:56):
first we, we get on the call, the call and the main
purpose of the call is just toensure that, Mary Jo can feel
comfortable in my presence, andthat if there's any, you know,
nervousness or fears orquestions or anything that is in
her head that you'd like to getout of her head and, you know,
have a, a one-on-one back andforth with me, then with, yeah,
we can do that and just gothrough some different points

(20:19):
about how the session might lookand, you know, see if it feels
aligned for her.
If it's something that she wantsto move forward with.
I never tell a person that Iknow what's better for their
healing than they do.

Leah (20:31):
Mm-hmm.

Devah (20:32):
So I would suggest to someone a potential course of
how we can spend our timetogether and then they would,
uh, decide what feels aligned inthat and what doesn't feel
aligned in that.
And now one thing that doeshappen all the time is that when
I'm on the phone with people, itsounds like it's going to be an
overwhelming experience, butthen when they're actually in

(20:53):
person and they're sharing theexperience, they tend to feel
quite regulated and calm andsurprised at how easy it is for
them to settle into theexperience.

Willow (21:00):
And do you let them know that on the phone?

Devah (21:03):
I do.
I do.
And you know, I always have alittle bit of resistance to
saying that'cause it feels likea sales pitch.
And I'm not trying to, I'm nottrying to sell it.
I'm just really trying to, youknow, share information exactly
that that's true that otherpeople have shared with me.
Um, and I, I also will alwayssay afterwards, obviously I
don't know what your experienceis going to be.
'cause we can never predicteveryone's unique.

(21:25):
But that just tends to be whathas happened in the past sort of
thing,

Leah (21:28):
Well, you know, what's interesting about that is having
taught, you know, seminars for20 plus years with groups of
people, both individuals andcouples, these Tantra weekends,
one of the things that wouldjust blow the couple's minds, I
would have the women for aportion of the class and then
Charles would take the in for aportion of the class.
And in that I'm coaching thewomen who are gonna go on this

(21:52):
intimate experience.
And if they're a woman in theclass, many of them, not all of
them, will choose one of, uh, agentleman who's attending the
course also as a single.
And we have a story thatintimacy is impossible unless
you know someone really well.
You have to know what they dofor a living, you have to know
their last name.

(22:12):
You have to know if they'resafe.
You have to know what, what theylike to do.
You have to know about theirpast relationships.
Like you have to knowinformation about somebody in
order for you to actuallyexperience intimacy.
And, but, and so, and sometimesthe married women would be like,
you're gonna just let thesewomen just go pick a stranger, a
stranger to go receive anintimate massage.

(22:34):
Like, are you crazy?
I remember being a singleperson, having the same thoughts
in the same class of going, ohmy God, am I really gonna pick
someone I don't know?
Could this go well if I'm notdrunk, number one, and I don't
know everything about them toensure that I can trust them.
And that I'll be safe.
And what was so cool is likewe'd come back, everyone come
back after having their exercisethat night.

(22:55):
And the singles sometimes hadbetter experiences than the
couples because they didn't havea history.
And we would just, we wouldalways, Charles would always
make a point of asking one oflike the breakthrough
experiences, Hey, what's hislast name?
You know that partner you justhad like five orgasms with

Willow (23:11):
Yeah.
the most amazing breakthrough.

Leah (23:13):
like sobbing breakthrough.
And she'd be like,

Willow (23:16):
I don't know his last

Leah (23:17):
what it just illustrates that we have been taught that
intimacy is only possible if youhave this laundry list of
qualities.
And the truth of the matter is,is that intimacy, I believe, is
an door that opens on your sideand you, if you're a trustworthy
person, other people will feelthat.

Willow (23:37):
Mm-hmm.

Leah (23:38):
So if you live a life to being a trustworthy person,
which I believe the majority ofhumans do, yes, there's some
that don't.
Some are are wounded and theyget themselves in trouble, but,
um, by and large, we can trustother humans and we can drop in.
And I think that's prettyamazing when you can step into
meditation with someone and do alittle bit of eye gazing.

(23:59):
That that intimacy can drop inin a nanosecond and it doesn't
matter what somebody does for aliving, and it doesn't matter
what their last name is, and itdoesn't matter where they grew
up and how many siblings theyhave.

Devah (24:09):
Mm-hmm.

Leah (24:10):
Would you say, has that been your experience?
Do you think that's why peoplediscover, wow, this wasn't so
hard, actually kind of natural.
I feel like I've known you mywhole life.

Devah (24:19):
Yes.
Yes.
I would say that, and also thatpiece that you said about eye
gazing.

Leah (24:23):
Uhhuh.

Devah (24:24):
I mean, how amazing and valuable experience is that just
to be able to sit across fromsomeone and feel what's
happening in your body in thepresence of another person
without it needing to goanywhere, without them needing
to interact or intervene or fixor save, or, you know, judge or
any of those, those things thatcan happen when we're just
caught in our minds and runningaround the world.

Leah (24:44):
What's also interesting about eye gazing is that you can
feel without language, thethings that someone wants to
show you, but they don't knowhow.
It's like they, they don't havethe words to show you what's in
their throat, or they don't havethe words to share what's in
their heart.
But if you are just gazing atthem gently, softly, without
being a creep,

Devah (25:03):
Mm-hmm.

Leah (25:04):
which is, you know, a good distinction, wow, you can see
and feel someone you can,there's at a level of attunement
that can only be reached fromthat kind of communion.
And it's why the old adages, youknow, they're the windows to the
soul.

Willow (25:18):
I feel like eye gazing can be a psychedelic experience
and I, I'm sure you both haveheard this time and time again
when somebody gets out of asession with you or, or up off
your table or whatever andthey're like, wow, that did feel
like doing journey work.
You know, it's, and so what youwere speaking to earlier, Devah
around, um, you know, just thatyou can get flooded with all the

(25:41):
same chemicals that we getflooded with when we reach for,
you know, substances outside ofourselves and we actually have
all the medicine that we needinside of ourselves.
And eye gazing is such a deepmedicine that really gets
overlooked.
How interesting.

Leah (26:00):
Yeah.
How do you address when peoplefind eye gazing to be very
challenging?
Because it is something that canfeel really, a lot of different
emotions can come up when tryingto sort out eye gazing.

Devah (26:12):
It's the same, I, I think is the first practice that we
step into in sessions.
But it's the same with everypractice.
We just allow the space andallow it to be present.
And I get curious and I ask, soyou know, if they keep looking
away, like what's the sensationthat's happening in your body
that makes you want to lookaway?
And then we just look at thatsensation in the body.

(26:34):
And I dunno if you've ever heardof tapping EFT.

Willow (26:36):
Mm-hmm.
Of

Devah (26:37):
So I'm also a qualified EFT practitioner.
So if the emotional charge isvery, very, very strong, we can
tap it down.
So for people who don't knowwhat EFT is, it's a modality
that tops on acupressure pointsin the body, and it helps to
discharge strong emotionalexperiences.
So we'll get the charge of theemotional experience down to a
place where they can make senseof it and articulate it.

(26:59):
And then we'll just hold it andbe present with it.
And we'll try and see can webreathe into it and not, you
know, not have our bodies lookaway and just see what, what
happens when we breathe and wesigh and we just allow it to be
felt rather than pushing it downfurther into the nervous system,
we're running away from

Leah (27:15):
Mm-hmm.

Devah (27:16):
it be felt.
And if, if it's supportive, wecan also just, you know, just
touch fingers a little bit.
Like if we're on a couch, justreach over and hold each other's
hands.

Leah (27:26):
Uh

Devah (27:26):
that, that little piece of co-regulation and that little
bit of oxytocin and serotoninoften helps people to drop in
even Deeper, And the breathing,you know, breathing and sighing.
Deeper again.
And that just helps us all todrop into our nervous systems
and feel comfortable.

Leah (27:42):
Is there a specific breathing that you work with?
Sorry, Willow.

Willow (27:45):
It's okay.

Devah (27:45):
I don't do, uh, you know, there's no breathing technique
that I work with.
Just breathing and sighing, youknow how the, the vibration of
the vocal cords stimulates thevagus nerve?
Yeah.
And activate space, everything.
Pathetic nervous system.
So we just do deep breaths insize and we do that a few
different times.
And what's really fun

Leah (28:04):
I know it make you wanna breathe.

Willow (28:06):
Yes.
Mask my breathe inside.

Leah (28:08):
Yeah, totally.

Devah (28:09):
What's really fun about that is at the start of the
session, people are usually alittle bit constricted in their
desire to sigh, you know, and toexpress themselves or to breathe
deep.
There might be tightness.
Exactly, but then that's areference point.
It's a really encouragingreference point that they have
for the rest of their entiresession.
'cause as they start to relax.

(28:30):
So if in the beginning of thesession we go into the session
and I say, can you breathe?
And inside and someone goes,

Willow (28:37):
Totally

Devah (28:37):
know, and that's, yeah.
And, and that happens quiteoften, which is, and it's fine
and it's perfect.
It's where they're at, you

Willow (28:43):
Yeah.

Leah (28:44):
It's

Devah (28:44):
And also Exactly.
And also it's a reference pointand, you know, it takes
encouragement to say, you know,if you, I will explain the vagus
nerve thing, and I'll say, ifyou, if you sigh a little bit
louder and longer, you'llactually feel a relaxation in
your body, which encourages themto try it.
But it still might just be, itmight just be, uh, you know, a
little, a little, sigh.
So without talking too muchabout it later on, when people

(29:07):
are taking big breaths andgoing, ah,

Leah (29:11):
yeah.

Devah (29:12):
you say, if you say at that point, do you remember at
the start of the session whenyou couldn't even sigh, look how
far you've come, and it's onlybeen X amount of time.
And then they, they have thatinternal marker where they're
like, wow, I have come a longway in such a short space of
time, you

Leah (29:26):
Cool.

Willow (29:26):
a, a great nugget.
I love that.
Okay, I wanna get back to MaryJo, because Mary Jo, she came
and she had a, you know, she'snever had a good sexual
experience.
She's going through this divorceand she is coming to you and
she's had her initialconversation.
Okay.
She feels comfortable with younow.
She's, but she, you know, shemight be nervous or uncertain

(29:49):
about what the heck you guys aregonna do in a session.
Like what did, how, and so howdo you sort of, um, explain to
somebody, you know, what mighthappen?

Devah (30:01):
I would, first of all, on the call deduce the level of
sexual trauma or relationshiptrauma that they're stepping
into the experience with.
And I always give peopleobviously the, um, consent,
whether they'd like to answerthat or not on a call.
Um, but it is very, very helpfulto know that.
'cause the more details we knowabout somebody, the, the more

(30:22):
safety we can create for themwithin the experience that we're
sharing with them.
So I.
Most times, actually I don't, Idon't think anyone has ever
decided not to say it so far.
And again, everyone is free todecide on their own, but, um,
they usually share with me wherethey're coming from.
So if it's a, a place wherethere's been a lot of trauma, I

(30:42):
will also say to them, not as asales pitch, but just as a piece
of information for them toconsider.
If there's a lot of emotion thathas the possibility to come up
and be processed during our timetogether.
Then it's important to createtime and space for yourself or
to gift yourself time and spacebasically in order.
So, you know, if it's a shortsession and then a huge

(31:05):
emotional experience comes up inthe last 30 minutes, and then
you're thinking, well, I onlyhave 15 minutes left, kind of
thing.
So I, I encourage people ifthey, if they feel that there
could be a lot of emotion tocome up to be held, that they
give themselves time to processthat emotion so that they feel
regulated by the end of thesession and that when they go
out into the world, it's notoverwhelming with all of the
stimulation of being out in theworld as well.
You know?

Willow (31:25):
Mm-hmm.

Devah (31:26):
And then, so if there's a lot of, a lot of trauma or a lot
of relationship difficulty aswell, I'll suggest an extended
period of time.
And then I'll usually runthrough what a 24 hour
experience would look like sothat they can decide, oh, that
sounds appropriate, or thatdoesn't sound like it's
something that's aligned withme.
And would you like to hear whata 24 hour

Leah (31:46):
yeah, absolutely.

Willow (31:47):
Yes.
We wanna

Leah (31:48):
Yes.
We're so curious.
24 hours with you.
What's it like?

Willow (31:53):
Start

Devah (31:53):
both so

Willow (31:55):
We are.
We are fun.
You are too.
we would've a lot of fun if wehad a 24 hour experience.
I'm sure about that.

Leah (32:03):
my

Devah (32:04):
well, if we share that 24 experience and if Mary Jo
decides to have that 24 hourexperience, this is what it
would look like.

Willow (32:09):
right.
Okay.

Devah (32:11):
So I usually recommend that we come together very early
at the start of the day, the thefor the main day that we're
gonna spend together.
And the reason for that is.
If we're gonna move into anemotional experience and we're
going to be moving through waysof different sensations and
emotions, it's nice to beenergized and it's, but we, we
have more energy in the earlierpart of the day, usually than

(32:31):
late at night.
So I try and start early in theday.
We'll come together, we'll sitdown and we'll have a little cup
of herbal tea on a sofa orsomething like that.
And the reason I do that isbecause all throughout our
lives, for most people, we'veassociated having a hot cup of
something sitting down on thesofa as relaxation time.

Willow (32:51):
Mm-hmm.

Devah (32:52):
it's really deeply ingrained in our subconscious
mind and in our nervous system,herbal tea, sitting on the
couch, let's relax together.
And it encourages relaxation.
I'll have them kind of shareanything that's happening in
their mind so that they can getit out of their minds and into
their bodies.
I encourage them throughout thattime as well if anything arises
during our time together,they're welcome to ask for a

(33:13):
pause.
They're welcome to ask for abreather if they need me to go
for a walk and just leave thespace so that they can be alone
for a moment they're welcome toask for that.
Just whatever they need tocreate safety and relaxation in
their nervous system.
I encourage them to ask that.
And of course, there's the ourB-D-S-M-A conversation where we
can talk about boundaries andconsent and make sure that, um,

(33:35):
even though we've spoken aboutsomething on a call previously,
you know, all of our lives areso dynamic, something kind of
rise the morning of a sessionthat a person just had no way to
predict.
And it can shift their readinessand their willingness and what
they're, uh, they feel they havethe capacity to step into in a
session.
So we just do a little check inonce again to make sure that

(33:56):
they're feeling aligned andeverything is okay.
And when it comes to boundaries,um, whatever boundaries they
communicate are respected.
And I also just let them knowbeforehand that if they have a
boundary that we can't downregulate it during an
experience.
So if they say, you know, theydon't want to be touched on
their breasts, let's say, andthen we have the experience

(34:17):
together and they're like, oh,I'm feeling so relaxed this is
great.
Actually being touched on thebreast is okay.
That's, that's not acceptable.
Whatever boundary is created atthe very beginning when they're
feeling sovereign and in theirnerves.
Exactly.
They can upregulate a boundaryif they want.
They can say, actually I'drather not get touched here as
well.
That's

Leah (34:33):
okay?
Mm-hmm.

Devah (34:34):
But to

Leah (34:35):
They can add boundaries, but they can't change a boundary
that they've alreadyestablished.

Devah (34:40):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we just establish all that inthe conversation at the start,
and then we just move straightinto the practices whenever
they're ready.
Sorry, were you gonna saysomething?

Willow (34:50):
uh, well, I'm curious about, um.
What you notice, uh, betweenmale individuals or female
individuals as far as boundariesgo?
Do women tend to have more, um,boundaries around, you know,
how, how far they'll go, whatthey're willing to, to explore

(35:12):
and play with?
Or is it pretty equal?
Uh,'cause you know, when I'mworking with men versus women,
you know, I'm having to holdmore boundaries.
'cause men will just, they justwanna go,

Leah (35:26):
Yeah.
The typical answer when we'reworking with men is, I don't got
any boundaries.

Willow (35:30):
Yeah.
That's right.

Leah (35:31):
I'm good.
You know, and then we actuallyhave to teach them, okay, well
let's, let's actually, let'sstay right there for a minute.
Let's really explore like whatboundaries might mean and
whether it's this situation orother situations.
You know what I mean?
So, yeah, that's an interestingquestion willow.
Do you find that men respond toyou the same way?
They tend to respond to us inour first sessions with them?

Devah (35:54):
Um, I'm very thorough in my intake process, I feel, and
there have, there have been one,there's been once or twice that
a man has tried to be moreforward with their energy and
kind of direct where things weregoing to go.
Um, and also I found, you know,just a reminder that that's not

(36:18):
what this is.
And bringing it back into theirintentions that they had for the
session and rem rem remindingthem what they came here to
achieve.
Because, because men can go outinto the world and, you know,
there's, there's plenty of waysto meet people and have sex.

Willow (36:33):
Right.

Devah (36:33):
can do that, you can do that anywhere.
So why would you want to spendtime with someone that you're
paying in order to have ahealing journey and then do the
same thing that you've doneevery single other time for the
rest of your life?

Leah (36:42):
right,

Devah (36:43):
So, yeah, so it's exactly, so it's just calling
people back into that awarenessand then taking some deep
breaths together and bringing itback into being centered and
remembering where we are, whatthe intentions are, and then it
tends to, to slide back intosort of the more regulated and
healing journey that we, we areplanning, you know?

Leah (37:03):
Okay.

Willow (37:04):
Yeah.
I wanna ask, um, a question thatsort of shifts away from what
we've been talking about, um,with like the session work and
what that looks like.
More talking about, uh, youknow, the, the collective
wounded feminine, right?
It's like we, we often will sayon here, you know, even if you
haven't had some kind of overtsexual trauma, sexuality has

(37:28):
been traumatized, you know, inthe, in the collective for, for
centuries.
And so how do we shift, um,centuries of conditioning around
how yoni owners or vulva ownershave been treated?
And how do we, you know, helpthem find their way to safety

(37:50):
and exploration?
Because when.
A vulva owner is in a reallyexpanded, open, exploratory
state.
She feels so alive.
It is so good for her health onevery single level.
Her hormones, her sleep, herdigestion, her immune system,
her psychological confidence,like everything shifts and

(38:10):
changes when she kind of crossesover that threshold I could get
hurt, I could get pregnant, Icould, this is bad.
You know, the shame and theguilt and the collective, all
that's been that we all grew upwith, you know, coming from
Catholic backgrounds.
do we shift it?

Devah (38:30):
And again, I feel that touch physical intimacy and
sexuality is the very, very endof that equation.
Yeah.
And we can use, uh, we can usesacred intimacy and we can use
Tantric practices to also, youknow, move into healing quickly.
But in the general population ofthe world, I feel the starting

(38:53):
point of that is helping womenunderstand that they're not too
much, just because they feelemotions, that they're not crazy
just because they have a voice.
All of these things, theseprograms of the patriarchy that
have just disempowered women,that they're less capable than
men.
All of these things, women areso wise, they can hold so much.

(39:16):
They're so brave and courageous.
If you think about all ofeverything that women have been
through, if you just look at thelast few centuries of everything
that women have been through andthat's been going on for
millennia, I'd say at this pointwe don't really know when it
started.
You know?
And just getting down to theroot of that, listening to
women, getting curious aboutwhat their experience is, why

(39:38):
they're saying the things thatthey're saying.
Not just discounting thembecause you think something
different.
And um, yeah.
And, you know, asking theiropinion when a decision, an
important decision has to bemade to, to give them a voice
and to draw on their wisdom andtheir experience.
A woman who is 30 has been onthe earth just as long as a man
who's 30.
They've just as much wisdom andexperience, maybe even more

(40:00):
'cause they've had to put up allthe being disregarded and all of
the strength building andemotional regulation that came
along with just feeling theinjustice of life as it's known
on, on earth at the moment forwomen.
So, you know, their voices arejust so valuable and I feel
like, yeah, it's steps like thatare more important.

(40:21):
First is creating, lifting womenup so that they're standing
equally beside us.
Respecting their wisdom,respecting their voice,
respecting their strength,respecting the sacrifice that
women as mothers make everysingle day.

Leah (40:38):
Mm-hmm.

Devah (40:38):
Women, it just blow my mind, the strength of women.
And when I go to a country aswell, to say in Asia where
chauvinism is even stronger, andto witness the strength of the
women of those countries andeverything that they put up
with.
And they're such strong womenand they're the ones who lift
all of the heavy things there.
They're the ones who do all thework in the farms.
It's like mind blowing, just thestrength of women every day are

(41:03):
amazed by so start, that's thestarting point,

Leah (41:07):
Yeah,

Devah (41:07):
not starting with sex.
Starting with respect.
Respect and being seen and heardand held and present with women
so that they can feel safe andhave a desire to open rather
than feel like you're just gonnadisrespect them and then try and
take something from them, youknow?

Willow (41:23):
Hallelujah.

Leah (41:23):
Yeah, no, I'm

Willow (41:24):
a lot of phone calls

Leah (41:26):
I'm gonna say, I'm

Willow (41:27):
airs.

Leah (41:27):
drop across the

Willow (41:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Devah (41:30):
Uh, I hope so.

Leah (41:32):
like pay attention to the depth and the emotion that
you're hearing from Devah, andlike the honest, authentic
resonance of like, clearly a manwho really respects the minds,
the hearts, and the journeys ofthe feminine.
Like that opens a woman'ssystem.
And you can tell this is, you'rein the presence of a man who

(41:53):
spends time listening, and thathas a deep effect.
It's why I can hear pantiesdropping across the globe like,
like this is, this is the fodderthat opens up a woman's ability
to be devotional and to open hersex center and to be able to
like drop God into her yoni andshare it with you.

(42:15):
It's, it's kind of like thebeginning of how the portal
opens.
Um, that being said, I can alsoimagine if you're watching this
on YouTube and you're lady andyou've just heard what you just
said so beautifully, and you'realso such a charming, delicious
Irish chap who is gorgeous tolook at with a beautiful deep

(42:36):
voice.
Like how many times do yourclients fall in love with you
and how do you manage theiremotional attachments to someone
who's seen them maybe for thefirst time in their life.
Who's bringing them pleasure andcatharsis maybe for the first
time in their life from issuesthat are generational?
I mean, that's a lot of holdingand it's very easy for people to

(42:58):
go into transference around, um,someone showing them something
inside themselves for the firsttime.

Devah (43:04):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, this might feel a littlebit edgy.
Uh, it feels edgy to say it on apodcast, but honestly, love is a
part of the medicine that Ioffer.

Leah (43:14):
Yeah,

Devah (43:15):
Yeah.
it's an integral part of theexperience.
I, I feel.
And showing up in completeloving acceptance is basically
the medicine of what I offer.
And within that space of lovingacceptance, people heal
themselves.

Leah (43:32):
Mm-hmm.

Willow (43:33):
Ding, ding, ding.
Yeah,

Devah (43:35):
Everyone is their own healer.
So I show up in full love, fullopenhearted acceptance of the
person in front of me when I'min session with them.
And that inspires love in theother person.
And that's okay.
It's okay to feel love.
It's okay to feel acceptance.
It's okay to understand that youcan have this experience with
another person.

(43:56):
And also, you know, there are,uh, when people, if it doesn't
happen, honestly very often it'shappened to me.
I think maybe only once, I feellike maybe twice.
But I can only really rememberone example when someone
expressed that they wanted to,to deepen in, in a relationship.
And from, from that moment,it's, it's a celebration.

(44:18):
You know, remember when you cameto me and you felt like you were
so unlovable and so, orwhatever, that might not be
their experience, sorry, butwhatever.
They came to me with theirexperience of whatever they,
they were trying to work throughand now they're in this

Willow (44:32):
get in a relationship again or

Leah (44:34):
Right,

Willow (44:34):
that.
Now they're like, I wanna be ina relationship with you.
And you're like, whoa, celebratethat.

Devah (44:39):
did it.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
This is what you came here todo.
I'm gonna be out here doing thiswith lots and lots of other
people.
So maybe the idea of arelationship with me isn't what
you're imagining, but you know,this, this, this, is the gift.
This is what you came here for.
You've received it.
And now you can go out into theworld with that, knowing that
this is possible, with that,knowing that you can feel this

(45:00):
good in your body and you cantry and find someone out there
who you can share thatexperience with, you know, so.

Leah (45:06):
uh,

Willow (45:07):
go ahead.
Well, I was gonna say, do youteach women how to guide
partners.
'cause let's say a woman does,Mary Jo does come and she's
like, okay, I went through thatgnarly relationship with
divorce, but I, I'm open, I'mready.
I wanna

Leah (45:23):
I just met Steve.
I'm so excited.

Devah (45:25):
Mm-hmm.

Willow (45:26):
well not Steve quite yet.
He, just had devah right?
And so she's like, now she'sopen to Devah and she da.
Right.
But how, how would you then liketransition Mary Jo to be like,
you know what, there's a Steveout there for you and you're
gonna teach him how to love youbecause you know how to love
yourself better now.

Devah (45:47):
So I never really, uh, tell people that they're going
to be able to teach someone

Willow (45:55):
Okay.

Devah (45:56):
X, Y, Z.
I have a very strong feelingthat people only learn when they
want to be taught.
I don't know if that's the beall and end all truth of it,

Willow (46:06):
Hmm.

Devah (46:08):
you know, I'm, I think a lot of people in their lives
have had experiences of tryingto change someone or trying to
teach someone or trying to x, y,z someone when it wasn't invited
or asked.
And it hasn't really worked

Willow (46:20):
It doesn't work.
That never works.

Devah (46:22):
Exactly.
So if Mary Jo's Patrick I thinkwas, comes and, and that he
wants to learn from me and he'sdesiring, I'm in.
I can teach whatever, whateveryou wanna know exactly.
And, but what I can teach MaryJo is healthy boundaries.
Self-respect, self-worth, likeif it feels this good to be me,

(46:44):
if I can show up feeling soembodied and so confident, and I
can learn how to communicatewith someone I want to feel this
way.
This is what I'm available for,this is what I'm not available
for.
Does that feel good to you?
You know, just we can teachthose communication patterns as
we're interacting with eachother throughout the session,
just through asking someone acertain way and then they can

(47:05):
think, whoa, I never evenconsidered asking someone that
before.
You know?
So we can teach those languagepatterns, we can teach that.
We can offer that experience ofbeing fully loved and accepted,
and hopefully the other personcan experience what it is to be
fully embodied and so joyful intheir body.
And then once that experiencehas been attained, hopefully
there's a desire on thatperson's own, uh, of their own

(47:29):
free will that they want tomaintain that sense of
wellbeing, that sense of joy.
And then they'll choose, they'llchoose a person that will
respect them and honor them andbe willing to step into that
journey with them.
That's, that would be the hope,I think more so than.
able to, you know, teach someonethrough the other person the the
way kind of thing, you know?
Yeah.

(47:50):
Find someone who is willing tolearn, who's willing to grow
with you.
Go on the journey together andstep into that beautiful journey
of sacred sexuality together.
Holding each other and healingtogether, you know?

Willow (48:00):
Yeah, exactly.
I want to hit one more pointbefore we wrap up, which is, um.
You and I one-on-one, justpersonally have talked about,
um, how to use existential kinkwork.
That that book, um, CarolynElliott's book, existential
Kink.
If y'all haven't read it, do notpass.

(48:22):
Go, go get it and read it.
Um, and David and I, he wasreally kind of supporting me in
helping me along my own journeyin doing this work for, um, just
a couple of conversations and,and brought forth like use
existential kink to shift anylimiting beliefs or, um,

(48:42):
resistances that you have towhat you can create.
So just wanna bring that intothe conversation before we

Devah (48:51):
Before, before we move on to this, I just wanna say,
because we didn't get through tothe session with Mary Jo, so if
anyone wants to find out more,you can go to
www.DivinityEmpowered.Love, andall of the offerings up there,
that's where you'll find whatwould've happened with Mary Jo
along the way.

Leah (49:03):
Yeah.
Like if you're Mary Jo outthere, or maybe you're Cameron,
or maybe you're, you know, um,Suzy Q and you might be coming
not with Mary Jo's problems.
Like that was just onearchetype.
Right?
Like, what about someone who's,when I don't wanna go take us
too far, because I am verycurious about your answer about
what this conversation wasbetween the two of you about

(49:24):
existential kink.
Um.
But I know that the range ofsexual healing is wide and deep.
And we just gave you oneexample, but there's people who
are struggling with erectionsand there's people who are
struggling with performance, andthere's people who are feeling,
um, self-conscious about theirbody.
I mean, there's so many, there'speople who've been sexually

(49:46):
abused or have been assaultedthat all fall under the umbrella
of healing, including having areally great childhood, and you
still need some healing.
You know, it's like you can'tcompare one person's trauma to
another person's trauma.
So, is there anything else youwanna say before we move on to
existential kink regarding yourwork as a sexual healer, which

(50:08):
may, you know, maybe you'll addthat to the existential kink
answer.

Devah (50:13):
Um, I feel, you know, we could go on for another hour

Leah (50:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Devah (50:18):
I don't even know where to start.
But let's, we'll dive intoexistential kink because what
existential kink is gonna do isactually give people an exercise
that they can do at home,something that they can do it
themselves.
So it's empowering the audiencerather than saying you have to
work with someone else.
So just to give an exercise tothe, to the viewers and to the
listeners.
Um, so.

(50:39):
You know, there's a lot ofspiritual practices that say,
oh, love the pain, loveeverything that's happening
inside your body.
And love is one energy that wecan use to heal and transmute
experiences with inside ourbody, inside our body.
But sexual energy, as we spokeabout earlier when we were
talking about that flood ofoxytocin, serotonin, and
dopamine, sexual energy andsexual experience is also
something that we can use toheal wounds within our body.

(51:01):
So let's just say, let's takescarcity as an example, okay?
Because it's so not sexual.
It's to do with money.
You know, I don't have enoughmoney to pay the bills.
I don't have enough money for X,Y, Z.
So just say you're experiencingworry about money and you're
experience that every singleday, every day you wake up and
you think, oh God, I'm soworried about money.
And when you look back at yourlife, you realize, well.

(51:23):
I've always had a roof over myhead, potentially, like I've
had, I've been able to feedmyself maybe only one meal a
day, maybe only a sweet potato aday.
But I've always had food.
So, and if you look back at yourlife, it's very rare that you've
actually, or potentially it'sbeen very rare that you've had
absolutely nothing.
So it's that idea of, okay, wellif, if it's never really

(51:43):
happened that I've completelybeen down and out and on the
street, why do I constantly,every single day continue to
worry about this?
cause worrying is basically,when you think about it, praying
for the worst outcome to happen.
We can, we can easily, we caneasily think about the positive
outcome and thinking about thenegative outcome.
Why would we choose to thinkabout the negative outcome?

(52:04):
So there must be some attachmentsomewhere within each of us,

Leah (52:09):
Say that again.
You're praying for your worryingis praying for it to happen.
Is that what you said?

Devah (52:14):
Worrying is praying for the worst possible outcome.
Another way people pray and they

Leah (52:18):
yeah.
That should be a bumper sticker.

Devah (52:20):
me, when it's on repeat in your mind, you're basically
just saying the prayer again andagain, and again and again, and
creating worry and creatingstress.
Right?
So, but if we're doing thatevery single day, if we're
choosing that, we would thinkwe're not choosing it.
But if we're choosing that everysingle day, because it is what's

(52:41):
happening every single day,obviously somewhere, somewhere
in our beings, we get a kickoutta it.
That's, that's that, that's,that's the premise of
existential kink basically, isif we want to create this
situation for ourself day in,day out, we must absolutely love
it, because it's

Leah (52:59):
We must be getting off on it.

Devah (53:01):
Exactly.

Willow (53:02):
Love not having enough money.
Love only eating

Leah (53:05):
it.
Love being broke.

Willow (53:07):
I

Devah (53:07):
Exactly.

Willow (53:08):
yeah.

Leah (53:09):
I just love being hungry.

Devah (53:11):
And the thing about it is, right, if we're, if, uh, uh,
you, you both have experiencewith kink, I'm, I'm sure Do you
In the kink world.
Okay.
Yeah.

Leah (53:19):
Yeah.
Kink for everybody.
That's how we

Devah (53:20):
yeah.
Yes.
So if kink is, if, if we look atthat in a kinky context, right?
Just say someone is spanking usor, you know, domming us or
whatever it looks like for you,whatever your, your flavor of
kin that you enjoy is, there'san experience of, oh yes, I love
this, but there's also kind ofan uncomfortable, oh, that's

(53:41):
sore.
Oh god, I don't wanna surrender.
So we're, we're basicallyreframing this experience of the
challenging sensation oremotions that arise through
scarcity as the universe dommingus.
And so we're, we're pretendingthat the universe is doing the
thing that we want.
We're imagine that the universeis doing the thing that we want,

(54:03):
but the uncomfortable feelingthat we're having, like that
scarcity.
I think maybe the anxiety fromscarcity or the restriction that
we're feeling from scarcity isthat little element of the
experience that's uncomfortable.

Leah (54:14):
Right.
It's the resistance to thespanking.
Even though the spanking's gonnamake us wet, we, we still don't
wanna feel the sting, so we'reobsessing over the sting instead
of dropping into how wet we are.

Devah (54:26):
Exactly.
Exactly.
So we just, so we just imaginethat the universe is doming us
and making love to us.
You're doing whatever fuckingyou.
If that's, if that's what turnsyou on, like just whatever way
you enjoy having, being, beingmade love to or being
penetrated, you're imaginingthat's happening.
The universe is doing that toyou.
And the dis, the uncomfortablefeeling that you're having is
the, that pleasurable resistancething that happens in kink.

(54:49):
So you're like, oh yeah, okay.
More, more.
And you start to breathe into itand just ask the universe for
more and really love and acceptit as if, as if they're having
sex.
The universe is having sex withyou and then you breathe that
sexual activation because it canactually lead to getting turned
on.
Actually, that's, that's whatI've found.
That's what most people thatI've shared this with have
found.
So it leads to getting turned onand you just start to breathe

(55:12):
that turn on around your body.
The, I dunno, you're bothfamiliar with the microcosmic
orbit, I'm sure.
Yeah.
Have we, the viewers know whatthe microcosmic orbit is?
Have we ever spoken about thatbefore?

Leah (55:23):
Probably many listening.
Do not, I would, my guess wouldbe that it's not like we've
taught, taught it formally onthe podcast.

Willow (55:29):
but we talk about it, but you can explain it.

Devah (55:32):
so to put it simply, everyone, whenever there's a
buildup of sexual charge down inyour, your genitals, your
lingham, or your yoni, youbasically do a little clench as
if you're stopping yourself frompeeing or a Kegel.
Some people know the term Kegel,and you inhale and with your
internal eye, your imagination,you just watch from between your

(55:52):
legs all the way up to the crownof your head coming up the
spine.
So you're kind of trying to drawenergy basically, or arousal up
the spine and up towards thecrown of the head.
So that's on the inhale Kegel.
And then as you exhale, you justmake sure that your tongue is
touching the roof of your mouthand you let that arousal energy

(56:12):
waterfall down the front of yourbody all the way down to between
your legs again, and theninhale.

Leah (56:21):
Can you complete the circuit?

Devah (56:23):
Mm-hmm.
And then as you exhale, you cansigh as well, and you let the
energy fall down the front ofyour body and you basically
circulate that arousal energywith that.
You think about the scarcity andyou, you let that, those
emotions come to the surface,like the anxiety, the
uncomfortable sensation, and youcirculate your arousal around
your body and you'll find, orwhat most people find, I can't

(56:45):
tell you what your experience isgoing to be.
What most people find is thatthat energy of arousal, oh, that
energy of arousal will actuallystart to cancel out the
discomfort or the challengingsensation that you've been
having.
And you know, it might not do itforever.
It might just do it for an hour.
It might

Leah (57:00):
you might just get a reprieve.
Right?
Right.
So what you're saying is youare, you're doing a big upward
draw of the arousal and you'rekeeping at the forefront of your
attention.
The, the discomfort.
The discomfort, easy for me tosay, the uncomfortable sensation
of I'm broke.

(57:20):
I am

Devah (57:21):
whatever that, whatever emotion.

Leah (57:23):
Yeah.
Whatever the suffering is youhold, you, you, you, you draw up
the arousal, you're aware of thesuffering and you bring them
together or you're using thearousal to dissipate the
suffering

Devah (57:36):
So, one important point, thank you for, for asking that
Leah.
'cause it brought anotherimportant point to my mind.
We're not focusing on the words.
I have no money.
I have no money.
We're not focusing on the story.
We're focusing on the sensationfelt in the body that arises
whenever we tell ourselves thestory.
Okay.

Leah (57:51):
Okay.
Good

Devah (57:52):
So.
So if we say, I have no money,and then we feel the contraction
and the anxiety, that's whatwe're focusing on.
And we're only using the storywhenever we want to bring that
emotion and that sensation tothe surface.
And then just naturally as we,as we start to imagine ourselves
getting domed by the universeand the arousal starts to come
in.
And if you want, you canactually do this during a self
pleasure practice as well.

(58:12):
It's even more effective if youdo it during self-pleasure.
'cause obviously there's thatmore sexual charge generated.
Exactly.
So just by the, by the practiceof doing the microcosmic orbit.
You don't need to focus on ittrying to catch the
uncomfortable sensations.
It just catches it, it juststarts to carry it.
As you're moving the energyaround your body, it will just

(58:33):
start to catch on and neutralizethose, uh, uh, the discomfort
that you've been experiencing.
And eventually it should fullydissipate into just a feeling of
bliss and expansion, which wewould call subspace or down
space whenever we're in the kinkworld.
So, and that's, that's thehealing.

Leah (58:50):
Great.

Devah (58:50):
by, by changing our relationship to these.
Yeah.
Thank you, Carolyn.
So, by changing our relationshipto these negative experiences.

Willow (58:59):
Dao is,

Leah (59:01):
Yeah.

Devah (59:02):
But by, by changing our relationship to those, uh, to
those negative experiences,we're telling the subconscious
mind, oh, this is great.
And we're changing thatrelationship that we may have
had that has been creating itevery day.
And then it's not needed asmuch.
It stops arising as much.
And not only does it change thatloop that we can get caught in,
in our minds, it also changeshow money shows up in our life.

(59:24):
'cause our relationship to moneychanges.
And for me personally and forother people that I've shared
with wis, with this, with, uh,it has led to a huge change in
how money shows up in our lives.
So, super, super powerfulpractice for me.
Specifically around scarcity.
Sorry, go ahead.

Willow (59:43):
You can do it with anything.
Like if you're having scarcityaround, I can't find the love
that I want.
I can't find the sex that Iwant, I can't get the money that
I want,

Devah (59:51):
Mm-hmm.

Willow (59:51):
the, whatever, the weight off my bot, whatever your
thing that you're stuck on theloop and the cycle in, you know,
you can really do this practice.
And the microcosmic orbit comesfrom the Taoist tradition.
And the reason that it is soeffective is'cause it's, it's
activating the, the y, the mostyang or the most masculine

(01:00:11):
channel in your body, which runsup your spine, and then it's
connecting it to the mostfeminine or yin channel, which
runs down through the front ofyour body.
So you're really, actuallyworking with real meridians in
your body that have been, youknow, recognized by Chinese
medicine for over 5,000 years.
So you're activating these,these masculine and feminine

(01:00:35):
poles within that, um, bringharmony and balance to your
nervous system when they are inbalance.
But when we're always stuck inanxiety and worry and lack and
scarcity and not enoughness, youknow, our, our yang channel is
so tight, you know, and we allhave neck pain and back pain and
knee pain.
And it is because we're, we'retrying to protect ourselves from

(01:00:58):
the scarcity that we're creatingin our own minds.
So it's really, um, such apowerful practice that you're,
you're explaining right now devain so many ways and so many deep
layers in so many ways.

Devah (01:01:13):
I just wanna give credit to Carolyn for that though.
It's basically, Carolyn wrote abook that outlined that concept
in many different exercises andin many different ways, and that
was my main takeaway from it,and that's how I sort of share
that wisdom with

Willow (01:01:26):
She never talked

Devah (01:01:27):
her for the context.

Willow (01:01:28):
it is her, her book is incredible.
I've read it multiple times, butshe never, um, she never talked
about running the microcosmicorbit with it, did she?
In the book?
Not that I remember or recall.
I think that's your

Devah (01:01:42):
been, it's been a long time.
Maybe if it is good Coco co coco-creation.
Caroline.
Thank you.

Leah (01:01:49):
Yeah.

Willow (01:01:49):
a co-creation,

Devah (01:01:51):
Yeah.
But that's one of the keyelements to me for sure.

Willow (01:01:54):
Yeah.

Leah (01:01:55):
Well, Devah, um, thank you so much for being on the show.
Uh, tell us again how people canfind you.

Devah (01:02:02):
divinity empowered on all of the platforms, but I'm most
active.
I don't really do social mediathat much, but I think Instagram
is probably my most activesocial media channel.
And, um, if they go to DivinityEmpowered Love.
Then they'll be able to find mywebsite.
And I'm also over on Sacred Erosas well.
Uh, sacred Eros is a, a really,it's, it's been around for 25

(01:02:24):
years and it's a vetteddirectory for sacred intimate
workers, which is a greatresource for anyone out there
who's hoping to dive intosacred, intimate work.
So they can also find me over onSacred Eros.

Leah (01:02:34):
you'll see me, Dr.
Willow, and David, all on SacredArrows and including a lot of
other great practitioners.

Willow (01:02:40):
so

Devah (01:02:41):
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.

Willow (01:02:43):
Yeah.

Leah (01:02:44):
yeah.
Thank you so much for being onthe show, and um, y'all don't
you worry the show's not over.
You gotta stay tuned becausewhat's up next is the Dish with
Willow and I so love, love,love.

Willow (01:02:57):
Thank you, David.

Devah (01:02:58):
you, so much.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Willow.
Thank you.
Leo was honored to be here withyou both.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Now our favorite part, the dish.

Leah (01:03:09):
Well, that was so refreshing, so lovely to speak
to a man about sexual healingand he is just doing such
beautiful work.
And I mean, did you not justhave like a total crush when
he's talking about like thestrength of women and how much
he respects them and how hardthey work and all the things
that they accomplish?
I mean, I just was like, oh,swoon.
Oh

Willow (01:03:29):
Yeah.
I love Dave.
He's great.
He is a great, he is a greatfriend and advocate in this
field.
And coming from a a m maleperspective and a, a masculine,
you know, experience, it's justnice to have somebody to just be
like, what's going on?
What's your experience with thisor that?

(01:03:49):
Um, so that's why I wanted tohave him on the show just'cause
I think also, you know, his workwith, with.
Like his, his pan, what do youcall it?
Pan

Leah (01:04:00):
Pansexual.

Willow (01:04:01):
pan pansexual.
I, that's what I'm claiming too.
If I'm claiming any, anything.
It's like he really just doesfall in love with the soul that
he's with, you know?
And he is not afraid to love andhe is not afraid to, um, be open
and be, you know, and just tofully, fully be, be present and
be there.
And I think that is the healingthat everyone is really looking

(01:04:23):
for.
Um, when they start seeking inthis sacred sexual path, they're
looking for that deep presenceand being seen.

Leah (01:04:32):
Yeah, if I had had more time, I would've loved to have
given him another character, andthe character would've been a
man, um, with a

Willow (01:04:40):
to have him back.
Do another one.

Leah (01:04:42):
to have like a more sexual agenda and wanted to know like,
okay, how do you work with that?
So, yeah, future episode.

Willow (01:04:48):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, let us know what you allthought about the interview with
da and um, if you have anyquestions for him, we can ask
him the next time we have himback.

Leah (01:04:59):
Yes, uh, you can always reach us at
support@sexreimagined.com withyour questions and also your
suggestions for other guests,other sex experts.
We would love to know what doyou wanna learn on the Sex
Reimagined podcast?
Um, and let us feature thetopics you're most curious
about.
Okay, you guys have an awesomeday.

(01:05:20):
Love, love, love.

Announcer (01:05:21):
Thanks for tuning in.
This episode was hosted byTantric Sex Master Coach and
positive psychology facilitator,Leah Piper, as well as by
Chinese and Functional Medicinedoctor and Taoist Taxology
teacher, Dr.
Willow Brown.
Don't forget your comments, likesubscribes and suggestions
matter.
Let's realize this new worldtogether.

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Devah Curlechéile: How Conscious Touch Regulates the Nervous System & Rewires Trauma in Your Body | #156

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Devah Curlechéile: How Conscious Touch Regulates the Nervous System & Rewires Trauma in Your Body | #156