April 14, 2025 • 53 mins
#126. Let's Chat... about seeing grief as an adventure.
Welcome to another Let’s Chat episode, where instead of continuing our 101 Types of Loss list, I sit down with guests who have expertise and personal insight into different aspects of loss.
In this episode, I (Claire) have the pleasure of talking with Bianca Neumann, the Assistant Director of Bereavement at Sue Ryder – a charity dedicated to providing the right support, at the right time, for people who are end of life or grieving.
We explore the idea of grief as an adventure - what it is, what it isn’t, and how we can navigate its unfamiliar terrain. Bianca shares insights on how grief is often misrepresented, the power of support groups, and why learning to self-soothe in sorrow matters.
We also talk about the idea that while we can’t choose our losses, we can choose how we respond. And we reflect on one powerful question: What do you want from life?
Also, Bianca adds a tool to my metaphorical shed, which is bursting with resources to help us grow through grief.
For more about Bianca and Sue Ryder's work (including their Grief Kind Spaces), visit:
https://www.sueryder.org/authors/bianca-neumann/
https://www.sueryder.org/our-campaigns/grief-deserves-better/
https://www.sueryder.org/grief-support/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Claire Sandys (00:00):
Hello there and thank you for joining me for
another episode of Let's Chat onThe Silent Why.
I'm Claire Sandys, and throughthis podcast, we're exploring
how and where we can find hopethrough grief and loss.
In these Let's Chat episodes, Ichat to a guest who brings
either personal experience orprofessional experience to a
specific area of loss.
Together, we're building what Ilike to call a toolshed a
(00:22):
collection of insights, ideasand support tools to help us
prepare for or navigate theinevitable losses that life is
going to bring.
In this episode, I'm chattingwith Bianca Neumann, a
healthcare professional andexperienced psychologist with a
background in palliative care,hospice work and the wider
healthcare industry.
She's also the AssistantDirector of Bereavement at Sue
(00:43):
Ryder, a charity dedicated toproviding the right support at
the right time for people whoare grieving.
Bianca lives in Norfolk, an areaI was very familiar to growing
up next to a small river, andfor my international listeners,
this is not a Norfolk accentthat you're hearing.
Bianca is originally fromGermany.
I'm really excited for you tohear this conversation because I
found so much wisdom in whatBianca shared.
(01:05):
It's full of practical tips oncoping with grief, preparing for
it and even, perhapssurprisingly, viewing it as a
kind of life adventure.
We explored what it reallymeans and doesn't mean to see
grief as an adventure how tonavigate the unfamiliar terrain
of loss, and how our stories canbecome lifelines for others.
We also talked about SueRyder's grief kind spaces and
(01:28):
the role that bereavementsupport groups can have, how
grief can mask our true selvesand the powerful idea that how
we respond to grief is, to someextent, a choice.
Bianca also shared thoughts onhow grief is often
misrepresented in the media andTV, how we can learn to
self-soothe in sorrow, and whywe tend to prepare for life's
little pains, like headaches,but not the bigger ones, like
(01:50):
grief.
One of the key takeaways fromour chat was a simple but
profound question what do youwant from life?
We only get one life and griefis something that gets weaved
into all of our stories.
It becomes part of who we are,not something to endure for a
short while like an illness.
So the question becomes what dowe want to do with that?
(02:11):
There's a lot packed into thisepisode and I really hope it
blesses you in some way, just asit's blessed me.
And of course, I'll be askingBianca what tools she wants to
add to my metaphorical tool shedthat I'm building.
It's full of equipment to helpus face and get through loss and
grief.
So grab a cup of tea, a coffee,maybe a Pimms the sun is
finally out in England this weekand relax with me and Bianca as
(02:33):
we chat the adventure of grief.
Bianca Neumann (02:38):
Hi, my name is Bianca.
I'm a psychologist.
I work for Sue Ryder as theassistant director of
bereavement and one of thethings I like to do in the
mornings, if the river isn'tfrozen, is to have Coco Pops on
my paddleboard to get into theday properly with my mind and
heart.
Claire Sandys (02:58):
I heard Coco Pops and I was like brilliant, but
then you followed it up with apaddleboard.
I've never heard that before.
How did you think of that idea?
Well, I just chuck everythinginto a little container and have
it.
It's just really nice andrelaxing to have breakfast with
a view Amazing, brilliant.
And what is your view?
So the view is generally justseeing some, you know, nice
sunrises, especially when you'rereally early, just real silence
(03:20):
, and then just seeing the oddanimal every now and then.
It's quite a small little riverin West Norfolk.
It's only about a five minutewalk with my paddleboard from
here and you generally go downone direction against the wind
and then you can just relaxcoming back because the wind
brings you back.
It's just really serene beforeyou start a really busy day.
(03:40):
I like it.
That sounds idyllic.
So you're a psychologist forSue Ryder, so tell us a little
bit about what that entails.
What do you do in a job likethat?
Bianca Neumann (03:47):
Yeah, so the psychology element is part of
who I am and what I bring to therole as an assistant director
of bereavement.
One of the things that I thinkmy job entails is to bring
cutting edge knowledge that wehave around death, dying,
bereavement, into the UK, intothe population, into the
(04:08):
organization and, with that,interventions, services, things
that should help peoplealongside of their grief.
You know, that kind of toolkitprovision that comes from a
background that has beenevidence-based, that we know
tends to work, so that we don'toffer people cowboyish
interventions and we as anorganisation provide palliative
(04:31):
and bereavement support forpeople.
So it's quite important inthose kind of big life moments
that we get it right.
So we want to ensure that whatwe offer people doesn't just
come from the heart but alsowith scientific evidence behind
it.
It's quite a specific area toget into, then.
So what ensure that what weoffer people doesn't just come
from the heart but also, youknow, with scientific evidence
behind it?
Claire Sandys (04:47):
It's quite a specific area to get into then.
So what drew you into that kindof area in particular?
Bianca Neumann (04:52):
Oh, that's a big question.
I think for me it's one of thebiggest adventures in life and
one of the scariest adventuresin life.
Personally, you know, I had alot of losses in my life and I
always wondered what are the bigquestions following that?
I think those sorts ofexperiences can really change
you and redirect you intodifferent areas.
(05:13):
You know, when I came to thecountry, I did all sorts of jobs
, first 20 odd years ago, andthen life kind of tends to
direct you into different paths,right, and you choose at
different junctions where you'regoing to go.
And so my junction was seeing alot of suffering with patients
that I worked with when I workedin the NHS and neuroservices,
(05:36):
working with people who hadstrokes, working with people
with mental health issues.
And then that made me think,hey, there has to be a better
answer to this.
We can do better as people.
There has to be solutions forpeople so we can be more human
again for when it matters.
And I didn't want to havepeople see such and experience
(05:56):
such suffering at the end oflife.
And then my mum died.
That was in Germany, and thatreally turned my world upside
down and I really felt like andwhat can I learn from that and
bring to the UK so that no one,in a sense, has to feel as
overwhelmed as I had felt, youknow, and then?
So, yeah, I guess that's whatshaped my direction, wanting to
(06:19):
make a difference for people.
And I've got a.
I've got a kid as well, and Iwanted to make sure that when I
die, my child is going to beokay.
So it's that kind of systemchange that I want to achieve,
and so I work really hard onmaking sure that what we do in
Sue Ryder is helping people inthe right way.
Claire Sandys (06:43):
Do you feel like having gone through that loss
that helps your work?
Then Are you better at what youdo because you've experienced
it personally.
Do you think?
Bianca Neumann (06:49):
I think it brings with it that kind of
sense of curiosity.
So being open to what is thatall about?
Because we don't have all theanswers when it comes to death,
dying, bereavement, right, andoften you have to have a sense
of grief or a sense of loss toreally understand more about
yourself and what life is allabout.
(07:09):
And so being open to beingproven wrong, seeing difference,
learning from other people,contact with lots of different
people from different culturesall over the world, and just
hearing the beauty, the warmthand just the variation how
(07:30):
people see and tackle and livewith loss, it's been actually
really fulfilling and andwarming and you just start to
see the world very, verydifferently, which I think is a
gift I've already said so manythings I want to focus in on.
Claire Sandys (07:47):
You've mentioned the word adventure, which is one
of the things we said we weregoing to discuss already.
There were so many areas wecould have talked about, but
that was one that you were quitekeen to explore and I love that
idea.
But also you've been talkingabout preparing other people,
helping other people to learnfrom what you've been through,
to help them in their grief, andthat's kind of what I wanted
these podcast episodesspecifically to be about to help
(08:07):
people to know that actually itdoes look terrifying from the
outside sometimes when peopleare going through grief, but
there are things you can do toequip yourself and have tools
and mental approaches to it thatcan help you to a degree once
you face it yourself.
So it's very excitingeverything that you're saying.
The adventure thing.
Tell me a bit more about that.
Why and how do you see grief asan adventure?
What does that mean and whatdoes it not mean, maybe as well?
Bianca Neumann (08:30):
Yeah, I think what it doesn't mean is that
grief doesn't come witheverything that encompasses loss
.
So by no means it means takingaway those very painful
experiences that people have.
And what I mean by adventure iswhen we think about the
definition of adventure and I'vewritten one down.
I will read it out so adventureis stepping into the unknown.
(08:52):
It's something challenging,thrilling and intimidating.
Adventure is about deliberatelyplacing yourself in challenging
situations that foster personalgrowth, and it also requires
significant effort, curiosityand determination.
And I think these are allqualities and characteristics
you bring into grief, and Ialways think of it as an
(09:15):
astronaut landing on a farawayplanet and they first put their
feet on it and they kind of knowfrom training, from hearsay,
from knowing what it takes to bean astronaut, what it might be
like when you land there.
But then, of course, you onlyknow what you already know and
once you put your feet on thisnew planet, the ground might
actually feel very, verydifferent to what you learned in
(09:38):
the books and in your training,and the sight and the
experience inside will probablyfeel very different to what, in
theory, you have learned aboutit.
And I think with grief becausewe don't learn about it at
school.
We don't get, you know,handbooks on how to do it.
We don't know until we're in itwhat that actually means.
(10:00):
And so our life map gets turnedupside down, often gets totally
erased, and then people almoststop at the edge of their map of
how they once knew their lifeto be and look at a vast
emptiness and they don't know.
There's no roads, there's nosignposts, often there's no
(10:20):
people that guide them throughit.
So, for example, we've done someresearch recently and that
showed that 88% of peopleexperience a real sense of
loneliness in that grief, andthat feeling alone means that
when they look at this empty mapthey don't know where to turn
and what the next best stepwould be, just like an astronaut
(10:41):
on a faraway planet.
So then it comes to the sense ofadventure.
Right, people at first are veryparalyzed by their sense of
loss and by this sheer emptinessin front of them.
And then, through time andtrying and having that
determination of I'm a survivor,life means living.
(11:02):
Living means anything fromhaving to go to the shop to buy
milk, to get yourself out of bed, to go to work, make sure the
kids are ready and go make surethat the car has got an MOT all
the way to all thoseinterpersonal relationships, and
as people start to go back intothat empty space, they leave
(11:22):
footprints, but they also startto make decisions alongside on
their path.
Do I turn left?
Do I turn right?
What is out there for me?
And I think there's a realsense of adventure underlying
that.
Claire Sandys (11:32):
I was just thinking.
When you say footprints, isthat the sort of thing other
people can follow, then do youthink, do you think you can
watch somebody doing thatjourney and it can help you when
you get there?
Bianca Neumann (11:40):
The beauty in being human is that human nature
means that we are people fullof stories.
If we go back in time, you know, sitting around a fire, when we
were cave people, we wouldcommunicate with hands and feet
and pictures.
We would leave pictures behindto tell stories of who we are
and then, as we started to, youknow, become verbal.
(12:01):
We would tell each otherstories about the ancestors,
about how to do things, how tolook out for that saber-toothed
tiger, where to get the bestberries from, and so we're
people made of stories, havinglearned from those who have been
before.
And so I think what helpspeople a lot is that peer
support when they're grieving,because they can really start to
(12:24):
see themselves in.
Someone else kind of understandswhat I'm going through and what
we often see in, for example,our grief kind spaces, which are
peer to peer support sessionsall across the country that
people can learn from others inthe same boat.
So people often come into thesekind of grief camp spaces or
(12:47):
bereavement cafes or any kind ofgrief group and say you know, I
don't know what's out there forme, I just can't see a way
forward without the person in mylife.
And then they speak to someonewithin the group, for example,
who says you know, I know whatit was like being where you are
now and I didn't know a way.
(13:08):
But actually life then justkind of happened and it's got so
much to give and let me tellyou how I got to where I am now,
which is that thing of learningfrom our elder, from those who
have survived it, and how theysurvive it and how they embrace
life again, how they engage inlife as an adventure, is what
(13:31):
brings us growth and hope and abit of a guide on how to do this
.
Claire Sandys (13:36):
Definitely I identify with so much of what
you're saying.
I remember when I lost mygrandpa and he was ill for a
little while beforehand it wasquite a shock still, it was like
a heart attack and I had thephone call to say he'd gone and
I honestly the day before wouldhave told you that when I heard
that phone call I was expectingit.
I couldn't imagine it being abig deal.
But when you actually hear thewords that someone's gone, like
you said, it's just like landingon that planet.
(13:57):
It's a completely differentexperience and feeling than you
thought it was going to be, eventhough it was almost expected
and it was in the natural orderof things.
And it's still something thatjust really hits you in a way.
And I haven't lost any parentsor anything, so you know, not
got to that stage, but I canimagine the shock and, like you
said, that environment you'resuddenly thrown into that is so
different from what you expect.
(14:18):
But also I remember speaking topeople for many years, even
before the podcast and then now,especially with people I've
spoken to on here, hearing ofstories of how they've got
through things, how they've losta partner, in horrific
circumstances sometimes, but howthey're sat there chatting to
me even as little as a yearlater and they're getting
through it.
(14:38):
And I have really clung tostuff like that and thought,
okay, well, if they're doing it,it's possible.
And I really think that even ifit happened now, my world got
turned upside down.
There would be something in theback of my mind saying we've
seen others go through this.
It might be bad now, but youwill get there, just keep going,
keep going, keep going.
And that, for me, is reallyhelpful, because I think some
people just look at grief andthey don't want to be in that
(14:59):
situation, so they just shutdown the whole thought of it,
and I think that's dangerous,because then I think it's even
more unfamiliar when you land init.
But I can understand why peopledo.
I guess the adventure of griefwould be a hard sell for a lot
of people.
Would you find that some peoplewould not want to experience
that, even if it is an adventure, because they're just too
scared to think about thatsubject?
Bianca Neumann (15:17):
Well, grief is something that happens to all of
us and I think if we think ofgrief as a natural reaction of
loss to any kind, all of us willhave had a natural reaction to
loss of any kind, whether youknow that's breaking up with our
first love, you know our firstcar giving up the ghost, moving
house, starting a new job.
(15:38):
You know losing maybe somethingreally important in the drain
somewhere because you were a bitclumsy.
But all of these times in ourlife where we experience loss,
they teach us about loss of aperson too.
So, whilst people are saying Idon't want to see it as an
adventure, when you're in it atthe beginning, as I can say from
(15:59):
experience, it does not feellike an adventure, right,
because you're just making it upas you go along.
You're just in this kind of bigpool of emotions inside and out
and the world as you know it isno longer the same and it can
feel like a very strange place,like you've been put on some
planet where they talk a verydifferent language and no one
(16:20):
understands what you're talkingabout.
But you know what patients havetaught me when I was a
practitioner working in ahospice.
Still, there was a person, forexample, who I still remember
very well, whose grief meantthat she no longer could
actually get into a car anddrive anywhere because her route
(16:41):
would always be going past theplace where her child died and
through talking about it andremembering who she once was and
she loved driving a car and sheloved going to see friends and
she loved to go to daily walks,she loved doing lots of things.
(17:02):
But when we grieve we oftenforget the strength, the
resilience, the person we aredeep inside, because it's so
covered up by all this griefstuff that starting to get in
touch with aspects of who we aremeans that we can have real
personal growth in the face ofloss.
And this particular personthroughout talking, talking
(17:25):
about it and reminding her whoshe is and was meant that one
day she came to me and said,look, I've driven here today,
amazing.
And we both cried.
Or you know another patient whowas always in the military and
everything was always very rigid, and then grief happened.
Of course, there's no rules ingrief, there's no uniformity in
(17:46):
grief.
You just have to go bananaswith whatever you have inside
and this person could not seeany beauty, any real life that
is left to live, but by thinkingabout this is your new map,
what do you want to put in yourmap?
As daunting as it was, heactually turned out to, over
(18:08):
time, grow his hair, learn howto fly an airplane, go on a
motorbike, did parachute jumpingand learned dancing Wow,
something very, very differentto who he thought he was.
So life turned out to be anadventure for both of these
people because they reallystarted to engage with who am I?
(18:30):
Who do I want to be, now thatmy life has changed and there is
actually opportunity to grow myown map.
And you know, in life we don'treally often get a time where
everything is put on standby andwe look around ourselves and
think do I want this, how do Iwant my life to be and look like
(18:50):
, what do I want from life?
This one life I have, and griefoften forces us into a position
like that it's interestingbecause what you're saying
involves it is a choice, isn'tit?
Claire Sandys (19:01):
people have to get to a point of making a
choice to do something to growpersonally, or to make a change
or to be brave.
How do people come to that?
Is that something you can do onyour own, or do you think you
need help from outside tounderstand that?
Maybe it's even an option tomake a choice?
Bianca Neumann (19:18):
I think it's probably a mixture.
I think once you're in thereally deep grief time, there is
not much thinking that is beingdone because your brain is very
busy feeling lots of things andstaying alive and doing the
minimum basics to keep alive.
But over time, as your brainstarts to calm down and your
(19:42):
body starts to calm down, youstart to think about things a
bit more, and that's whenpersonal choice also comes in.
So again, that goes back towhat kind of person am I?
Am I a victim of life wherethings get to me and I always
needed maybe this other personto help me out and help me out
(20:05):
of these dark days?
And do I also have thatresilience inside of me that got
me through some tough timesbefore?
Because, you know, we are all,ultimately, individuals on this
planet with our own choices, ourown behaviors, and so people
come to a point where theyactually say, often in these
peer support groups or on ouronline community, for example,
(20:29):
they will say by today I'vewoken up and I've made a choice.
I have to live this life, andthe person that has died
wouldn't want me to just sit athome and be upset.
They would want me to go onthis cruise or start to learn
how to play football or learnhow to ride a motorbike.
(20:50):
So people are making choicesinto their next adventure and
what that map looks like.
But sometimes people might getinto a situation of grief with
pre-existing mental healthissues.
Maybe they've always been quitealone and never really had
someone who says you're a goodperson, I know you are very
(21:11):
resilient and you can make itthrough tough times.
You know that reassurance thatwe all need growing up, or
people are just absolutelyoverwhelmed by their kind of
place that they're in, sosuddenly things just don't seem
the same at all anymore.
You know, for example, in mypersonal journey when my mom
(21:31):
died, I was looking in themirror and I sometimes didn't
know what sort of person am Ithat I couldn't help my mom to
live.
You know, and I've worked withdying people and there was
nothing that could stop me.
It was all very unrealistic, ofcourse, because everyone dies.
But there comes this point insomeone's grief journey where
(21:51):
they have to think about theexperience that they had around
the death and how that impactedtheir sense of who they are.
And sometimes that comes withsome complications where people
are very, very lost.
And so this is where peoplemight seek a therapy service
(22:11):
like the one that we offer inSurida.
We offer a free online grieftherapy service, and then people
have those six sessions with usand they start to ask these big
life questions, maybe sometimesfor the first time who am I?
What's out there for me, how doI get there?
And through someone listeningand, in a way, guiding them and
(22:35):
virtually holding their hand,but also emotionally engaging
with their sense of loss, thatcan bring them to a point of
growth and knowing more, what'snext for them yeah, because
grief is you know.
Claire Sandys (22:49):
You hear people talking and they'll say that you
know, once you've been throughgrief, it's part of who you are
for the rest of your life.
However you deal with it, it'sthere, but you are a slightly
new version of yourself.
So it makes sense that peoplejust lose that identity for a
while and have to almost figureout what's the new identity.
And I love the idea ofreminding people in the right
(23:11):
space and people you know well,in the right context and
everything, of the strengthsthat they had as a person before
and knowing that they will.
You know, I mean you've got tobe very careful with this
because you don't just go up tosomeone who's grieving and say,
oh, you're a strong person,you'll be fine.
So I don't mean it like that,but like you were talking about
just calling out those thingsand reminding them of all the
good things, because they mayhave lost that identity of who
(23:32):
they are and when they're tryingto reshape it, they have
choices, don't they?
They could be the grievingwidow forever that never gets
out of it, never finds hope,never wants to change.
I mean that is a choice youcould make, but there are other
choices you can make.
So I love that you can helppeople in what you do and in
therapy sessions and speaking toother people that are in the
same boat that help you findthat new identity that help you
(23:54):
find that new identity.
Bianca Neumann (23:58):
And I think often what's missing in the
population across the world ishaving those elders to go to,
having that kind of tribalknowledge of things.
So this is one of the reasonswhy in Surida we're trying to
increase people's grief anddeath literacy.
So knowing more about death,dying, bereavement, ideally
before it happens to you, meansthat you have a couple of bits
(24:19):
in your toolkit already and alittle bit of an idea.
It's a bit like you know whenyou see people with a small kid
and the kid runs off and youjust think, oh, this child is
going to fall over and hurtthemselves and then that happens
right.
And then you see the parentskind of going oh no, this is
going to be terrible, there willbe blood and there'll be lots
of screaming.
(24:40):
But as they go to the child thatis kind of looking at what am I
meant to do?
Should I cry or be okay aboutthis?
They look at the parent, theylook at the people around them.
Are they looking freaked out?
Or do they look calm andexplain what's happening and
tend to it calmly?
And then you learn from thosepeople as you grow up.
I can survive a fall.
It doesn't take away the pain,but it's something that I can
(25:03):
live with and that prepares youfor the next fall.
So when you fall again, youlearn there will be blood, there
will be scars, there will beextra pain and a bit of soreness
maybe afterwards, but it'ssomething you survive and grief
is a bit like that, I think yeah, that reminds me of a.
Claire Sandys (25:20):
I was with a friend many years ago and her
daughter did exactly that.
She was at a distance, she ranand fell and the mother was with
me and she just stayed with meand she was just watching her
and she said don't cry, don'tcry.
She was just like seeing whathappened.
And, sure enough, the girl gotup, looked around the mum hadn't
rushed over and she just got upand carried on.
And the mum turned to me andshe was like I'm so proud of her
, she was so proud she just gotup and she got on with it.
(25:41):
She wasn't damaged, it wasn't abad one.
But I just thought, yeah,that's so interesting.
Now you said that of course,the parents' reaction is going
to guide that.
I did psychology for a while and, as they're pack animals, it
frustrates me a lot when peoplehave dogs and they freak out at
certain situations.
And again there's that looktowards the pack and the owner.
(26:02):
How do I respond to this?
And when I had my dog, I wasvery kind of strong on making
sure he didn't freak out atthings when he was a puppy, like
fireworks and stuff.
So we would go out in thegarden and watch the fireworks
together when he was older,because there was a.
I mean, obviously I had him fromscratch so it's easier to deal
with.
But I taught him he would lookto me and if he got a bit scared
, you know, I kind of ignored ita bit like no, this is fine,
(26:23):
it's a normal situation, it's OK, but that was a packed
situation.
They look to each other and wedon't have that in communities
anymore, like you said.
Well, we have the elders, wehave the leaders that show us
how to get through these thingsor we can watch them and know,
and I think that's a shame and,like you said, a lot of people
feel very lonely, in grief, andI suspect that's why we've lost
that community feel.
Bianca Neumann (26:42):
Yeah, and I think the way that death, dying,
bereavement is depicted, forexample, in the media is very
extreme.
We see these big headlines oftenor throughout COVID, you know,
on TV we saw some reallytraumatic experiences around
death, dying, bereavement On TV.
(27:02):
You know, through Disney filmswe often learn very toned down
versions of it and even oftenthose grief experiences and
end-of-life experiences arefairly neutralized.
So, for example, still now alot of people think that all
grief is because someone's lovedone has died, when actually
(27:25):
often also the person that hasdied might have been an abuser,
you know, a perpetrator, someonewho might have been unavailable
emotionally, or abusive, or notnecessarily just a loved one.
So grief might be expected tobe looking like sadness and that
real hard, deep kind of sorrow,when for some people grief
(27:49):
might actually also be relief, asense of freedom, maybe even
happiness.
You know, and I think that hugespectrum of what grief might
look like, feel like, sound like, smell like, taste like,
because in many cultures griefis shared by sharing food, you
(28:11):
know that is often lost and Ithink what I've learned from
working with people from othercultures and communities all
over the world is just howisolated and clinical grief has
become, particularly here in theWest.
Claire Sandys (28:27):
Yeah, it's hard because, as you're talking, I'm
thinking to myself of all theamazing things I've heard people
say about grief and goingthrough grief.
All the amazing things I'veheard people say about grief and
going through grief, Beautifulstories and encounters, you know
, with other people, with thingsin nature, how different they
are.
A new appreciation for life,doing new things.
(28:48):
So many good things and yet atthe same time, if we're all
honest, even if it looks amazing, there's something in us that's
going to be like I don't wantto go through it, because to get
to those good experiences, Ihave to go through the really
awful bit.
So I'm sort of thinking,instead of thinking, this is an
adventure you choose to go on.
It's like you said at thebeginning everyone goes through
grief.
So this should be more of anencouragement that, as and when
it happens to you, it doesn'thave to be all bad.
(29:10):
There can be things that youcan have in it and it's a very
difficult thing to say.
You know that it's an adventure.
I've got a podcast episode thatwe've put out that's talking to
a girl about going through somereally lovely experiences in
life.
So she's got married again andshe's pregnant, but she'd been
through infertility and a brokenmarriage, and she's talking
about the loss that has come andthe grief in the good moments.
(29:33):
And it's a difficult episode todo and she was really nervous
about talking about it becauseshe said I don't want to sound
ungrateful, but there's been alot of grief attached with these
new things.
I never thought I'd be a mum.
Now I'm pregnant.
It's been very confusing andI've had some stuff to grieve
and think about from the pastand so it is so complicated.
I don't know where I'm goingwith this.
But yeah, it's like how do yousell it almost?
(29:55):
How do you show people griefisn't all bad and that it is an
adventure, without them justsaying, yeah, but I don't want
to go on that adventure.
Bianca Neumann (30:03):
Yes, that is a very big life question.
You got there and I think it's.
Sometimes, I guess, peoplemedicalize grief.
It's a bit like you have a cold, then you go through the
motions of having cold, then itgoes, then you're fine, you know
, might be a bit tired, but thenyou're okay again.
But grief is something that isbecoming part of who we are.
(30:26):
It lives within us, in our skin, in our, in our words and our
story right, and so it is weavedinto our very being.
And I think, if we think aboutlife overall, from the moment
we're alive to the moment we die, there are ups and downs that
shape us.
There is moments where we havedays of nothingness and then we
(30:50):
have busy days and we have greatdays and memorable days and
really warm moments and verylonely moments, and with grief
it just becomes part of that.
And sometimes it attachesitself to good moments and we
feel the good.
And then sometimes it attachesitself to moments that might be
(31:12):
more traditionally associatedwith, you know, the sorrow, the
loss, the sadness that comeswith it.
And I guess for me the hope isin understanding that life is
one big adventure.
We don't know what.
We might have an experience init.
But whatever we might have anexperience in it can have grief
(31:37):
in it and we can survive it andwe can enjoy those days and
moments, seconds, you know,hours, days, months, with it
being a bit of a feature, moreor less, sometimes more,
sometimes a little bit moresubdued.
But there is life worth livingand a life that we must live,
(31:57):
and it's a mixture of havingchoice, of how we choose to live
what we have.
Make the most of it, and maybewe will need some support in
having that guidance yeah, Ilove that.
Claire Sandys (32:11):
Seeing life as a whole as adventure, and grief is
just part of that for everybody.
It's not a case of if and whenthis might come, it's like it's
just part of it.
It's part of your wholeadventure.
It's going to be there, soyou're going to have ups and
downs, and some of those will begrief and some will be other
things, but tell us about someof the ups of grief then.
What are some of the thingsthat I've mentioned earlier?
Bianca Neumann (32:29):
you know just how they find by doing that,
life has got a lot to give and Ithink often we know from when
someone's died that people willstart in small steps.
It's actually called the dualprocess model.
(32:49):
So you're kind of oscillating,moving between what I call the
world of the living and theworld of the dead, moving
between what I call the world ofthe living and the world of the
dead.
So you're learning by doingthings for the sake of doing
them, like going to getgroceries, going to work,
washing yourself, washing yourclothes.
All of that people often sayfeels like meaningless, just
(33:15):
doing it, no emotions attached,you're just going through the
motions.
But over time they findthemselves laughing again or
smiling, and then they feel badfor laughing and smiling because
they move from the world of theof the dead to the world of the
living, because living peoplemust experience life.
And over time that oscillation,that moving between those
worlds, gets more fluid and lesssevere, less intense sometimes
(33:39):
most of the time, and that'swhen people notice those kind of
good moments, how grief canactually transpire into
something meaningful.
And this is, I think, wherepeople start to, for example,
make new friendships.
A lot of people find a sense ofbeing alone in grief, as we
(34:00):
found through our research, andwhen they start to reach out.
For example, when I've met somepeople in one of those
bereavement cafes and thebereavement group, people would
come to that group.
I remember one particularperson breaking down on the
stairs into the group and acouple of people from within the
seated circle got up and saidwe know what that feels like.
(34:23):
Come here, come talk to us,what's your name?
And a few minutes later thatperson was no longer crying.
They were talking and engaged.
And a few weeks later they cameand said oh, you know, we've
been out every time after this,after we meet here with the
group, we actually go and havelunch and we're probably all
(34:44):
going to go on a cruise togetherbecause we all made friends.
And you see them find theirheart again.
You find them feeling usefulagain and like someone who isn't
just defined by grief but bywho they really are.
We had people helping eachother to finish knitting a baby
jumper because they never knewhow to learn knitting.
(35:07):
So there were people in thegroup that said I help, you,
have a go.
And you know, people foundtheir calling there.
What's my point in life?
By being with other people?
And I think that goes back tothat tribal thing of grieving in
isolation is never a good ideano you.
You already feel alone enough inyour heart when you grieve.
(35:27):
You don't also have to feelalone being amongst so many
people.
And if you think about how bigthis grief club is, how many
millions of people are grievingat any time in the world today,
right now, or freshly grievingfrom today, there is someone out
there who understands whatyou're going through.
(35:47):
And this is the adventuredefinition, stuff about
determination, making an effort,making a choice to go out there
and be amongst others.
Claire Sandys (35:59):
It's so difficult , isn't it?
Because it does revolve againaround so much choice.
You're in that worst place youcan be.
You've lost your identity, it'san alien world, and then you've
got to get out and go and sit ina group of new people, which is
terrifying for some people, atthe best of times, let alone in
grief grief, but the benefits ofdoing that if you can bring
yourself to to get to that pointare just huge, and I've only
(36:21):
heard good stuff about peoplegetting in amongst you know
people going through similarthings, because there's just
nothing like being with someonewho knows exactly what you're
going through.
I think that's very powerfuland anything they say at that
point has more power, because ifthey're saying you know there
is hope you can through this, itmeans something from someone
who's already been through it Onthe other end of the scale.
I remember when we were firstchatting about this and what we
(36:41):
would talk about, you mentionedself-soothing and I'd never
heard that mentioned beforeoutside of babies.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat that means.
Bianca Neumann (36:49):
OK.
So the idea of being soothed isthat often we get a sense of
calm and feeling soothed throughothers and that's kind of
neurotransmitters and stuff thathappens in our brain when we
get a cuddle from someone orwhen we have a warm blanket over
us, that kind of sense offeeling safe and okay.
And when someone dies, oftencortisol our kind of stress
(37:14):
response to things is ruling ourbody.
So we don't feel safe, we don'tfeel calm, we don't feel
soothed.
And if, for example, we havemoments or longer periods of
time where we don't have someoneto give us a hug, to give us
that sense of feeling calm andsoothed, then self-soothing
(37:36):
becomes very important.
And that's something we havelearned from babies.
When babies kind of scream andcry and don't stop for a long
time, most of the time don't seepeople holding the baby and
telling them.
Well, what's going on in yourbrain is lots of cortisol flying
around that's making you upsetand you're most likely to of tea
(37:56):
and maybe you have some wind.
This is what I'm seeing.
Your intestine, you have.
You have this thing called anintestine.
So we don't go intellectual onthem, but instead we find our
own calm to deal with the baby,because we're mirroring that
this is something that does notrequire screaming and that you
can learn from that calm andthat, in essence, also helps us
(38:19):
to be calm.
Now we learn that over time aschildren, adolescents and then
into adulthood, and whensituations overwhelm us, we can
tune into that learned skill sowe can think about things that
soothe us, and I often talkabout, you know, having a bit of
a toolkit for yourself.
(38:41):
So in when life is sort ofnormal average, if there is such
thing, let's say an averageMonday, when you have a
stressful day at work maybe somestress with with relatives,
maybe some, I don't know ifsomething's come through the
post that is upsetting you whatdo you do to help you feel calm
(39:02):
and soothed?
So some people maybe, like me,go and do mountain climbing just
to feel that kind ofexhilarating thrill because that
trumps the stress that you hadfrom that builders just come
through the door, right, yeah.
Other people might go and dosome yoga because that they find
that inner calm.
Some people might like a hotbath because feeling warm and
(39:25):
covered and you know, they canjust find that self-soothing in
that.
We all have our own ways to dothat and I think what we can do
a bit like that grief literacythat I was talking about is to
think about how do I preparemyself for those tough times in
life?
You know, make yourself a bitof a self-prescription of
(39:48):
self-soothing tools.
What helps you?
Because then, when it comes toa time where you need
self-soothing, where you need tohave a strategy or something at
hand that helps you feel calm,safe and content to a point that
you are able to switch off alittle bit from the stress, from
the overwhelmedness, you cangrab that list and you can
(40:11):
follow your own prescription ofdoing that.
Claire Sandys (40:13):
That's a great idea.
It reminds me of our second.
I think it was the second everepisode we did, and the lady we
were chatting to had developedwith a friend this pack of cards
52 cards.
Looked like a pack, reallycolourful, but in it was things
you could do, and it might havebeen have a glass of water, take
a bath, take three deep breaths, loads of stuff and you could
use it as prompts to lookthrough and think what do I feel
(40:35):
like doing?
What would help me in thismoment when you can't think of
all the options?
Sometimes?
Have a, you know, have a cup oftea, go for a walk lots of
simple things, but sometimes youforget when you're in that
moment, you forget they're there.
So I love the idea of knowingwhat self soothes you.
So you've got something to goto.
Yeah, as this, like this, iswhat helps me, this is what puts
me in a slightly better frameof mind, and so, yeah, that's
really important.
Bianca Neumann (40:55):
I've never heard that talked about for adults
before yeah, and I think itrequires that preparation is
that when we have a headache,you know, we're now kind of
conditioned to go and grab, youknow, paracetamol or ibuprofen
or something, because we knowthat helps the headache, but we
don't really do that forsoothing.
We know what we need to takewhen we need to be alert, you
(41:16):
know, and we go and get onecoffee after the other sort of
thing, or when we feel cold wehave a cup of tea.
You know there's that kind ofsense of we already have them in
other areas of life, but wedon't prepare for those big
moments.
And when the big moment happenswe haven't got time to really
think and prepare because we'rein it and that requires enough
yeah, yeah, so interesting.
Claire Sandys (41:37):
I'm thinking back over the things I do now and I
think, oh yeah, they areself-soothing, and it would be a
bath with a good book, like aromance book, something that
takes me away from everythingthat's simply, simply written, I
can enjoy, or just, like yousaid, a blanket and a hot water
bottle, those sort of things.
I look back and I think of themas things that I've just sort of
got to a point and I'm justdoing it.
I haven't thought about it, asactually, that is specifically
(41:58):
self-soothing and something Ican choose to go and do when I
need that.
So that's a really interesting,just a tiny mind shift.
But knowing the things you doalready and then labelling them
as your self-soothing things, Ithink that's a great practical
tip for us to remember and go to.
So these are all such goodthings to do and learn, and
there's so many tips and toolshere.
What's the hardest bit aboutadopting them, though?
(42:19):
If people are sat there andjust like, oh, I don't know
where to begin with, what do youtend to find are the blocks
that stop people putting thesethings in place?
Bianca Neumann (42:26):
Okay, there are probably a couple of blocks.
I think the first one is griefis exhausting and it requires an
effort to do anything that youdon't already do.
Um, so it requires an effortlike, um, you know a lot of
people in January they say I'mgoing to start going to the gym
and they sign up and they go acouple of times and then they
(42:46):
just pay for a few months fornot doing anything.
Yeah, and and because it aneffort, it's a change of doing
things differently, and changerequires energy, and most people
don't have energy when they'regrieving.
So it feels reallycounterintuitive to invest into
doing something when you alreadyfeel like you haven't got much
(43:07):
left to give.
But it is the best medicine atthe same time.
So going out there and doingthings whilst not feeling like
it's actually helping and itwon't feel like it's helping or
doing anything for a long timeactually helps.
So people have to just tellthemselves and we've got this
(43:27):
saying in German and ittranslates into from nothing
comes nothing, and often when Ihave days, or had days in my
life, where I felt like I can'teven face the day, or this is
too much or this is too hard,for example, with doing uni work
or when I had my ownbereavements.
It feels like that sentencereally resonates from nothing
(43:48):
comes nothing.
So I have to do something tomake a something happen.
And so people need to dosomething to make a something
happen, you know.
And so people need to somehowbe able to challenge the.
What do I need to do to makemyself be the best medicine for
this with this?
Yeah, and I think breakingthrough that kind of cycle of
feeling almost paralyzed by theexperience is really important,
(44:12):
and I think one big part of thatis also kind of societally.
You know, we've really startedto become a kind of
service-seeking society wherewhatever goes on, there's
someone who can solve that forus.
If your heel breaks on your shoe, you know to take it to a shoe
person that fixes it.
If your car breaks, there's acar person to do it.
(44:35):
If your roof breaks, you knowif things break, there is a fix
for it.
If we get sick, there's adoctor who should, or who we
expect will, have a fix for it.
Right, a medicine, somethingthat stops it from hurting,
feeling ill, being ill, fromhurting, feeling ill, being ill,
and with grief.
(44:56):
I think we are so conditionedinto approaching life in that
way now that we're hoping thatsomeone has got a cure for it.
Someone can fix it for us,someone out there, and there are
people who can help, soothe youand help you along your journey
and guide you to an extent.
But ultimately, this is yourastronaut journey.
This is your adventure, yourpath, your map, and it's you
(45:22):
that has to figure out what tomake of it.
But also keep your eyes openand see what life has to give
and what those differentjunctions might be, and don't
let fear hold you back.
Claire Sandys (45:34):
And it's sort of prioritizing mental, spiritual,
emotional health as well.
I think when you're grievingand everything's gone out the
window, you might still betaking tablets for something
physical that's going on withyou.
You might not stop that andthen suffer the consequences
because you know you need tokeep taking it.
But we wouldn't necessarilythink that we need to be taking
steps towards helping mental andemotional and spiritual health
at that point, which might bereaching out for help or going
(45:57):
to a group.
They're still not on equalfooting.
We put physical first so oftenand feel like, yeah, that's
something I need to, I need tosort, and it is kind of physical
, I guess, with grief.
But, um, I feel like those arethe sort of things we would get
out of bed to do.
Or I need to go and take mytablet, so I need to do this,
meanwhile neglecting otherthings we could be doing that
would be helping us in differentways yeah, I mean, for example,
you know some people might beactually coping quite well
(46:20):
overall, emotionally with theirgrief, but maybe financially it
has the biggest impact.
Bianca Neumann (46:27):
You know the fallout from from a bereavement,
and so again, you know there isdifferent support organizations
out there that can help withfinances, for example.
Or you might have to talk toyour employer when you just feel
very griefy, to help make thatpart of your life better,
(46:47):
because that then has an impacton your ability to grieve well.
So again, it might not all beabout how you tackle the
emotional fallout of grief, butall of those factors that almost
interfere with it or that driveyou into a different direction
with your grief that feels likesomething you can't manage or
(47:09):
feels overwhelming.
And of course I would alwayssay, if you worry about how you
are grieving, if you feel likeyou're not getting out of bed,
you're neglecting yourself, youcan't find anything that soothes
you, you can't go and buy thatbread from the supermarket, you
just can't face the world.
Go and talk to your GP, becausethere's always solutions,
(47:30):
signposts, and it's often reallyimportant to just say these
things out loud, maybe for thefirst time, and that can help
Again, mapping those first stepson that empty map.
So never feel like you'refailing at grief, because you're
doing it and you're doing itwell and you're doing it to the
best of your abilities.
(47:51):
And just see what it brings youas well.
Claire Sandys (47:54):
Perfect, perfect ending before I ask my last
question.
Yes, and I'm really glad thatyou reminded people about all
the other aspects, because we doforget about the fact that it
can be, you know, financial andhousing situations and all kinds
of stuff that are affected bygrief that people struggle with,
and it's not talked about asmuch as it can be more
embarrassing to talk about thatsometimes.
So that's a really goodreminder.
So if I'm going into mymetaphorical tool shed so you've
(48:15):
got your toolkit I'm trying tobuild a shed with all these
garden tools in it that can helpus in various ways.
If I went in to get a tool thatrepresented grief being an
adventure, what tool do youthink that would be?
Bianca Neumann (48:27):
Oh, that's a good one.
I mean, I have two pictures inmy mind, am.
Claire Sandys (48:31):
I only allowed one.
Well, you know, a lot of peoplehave snuck two in, so I have to
let you sneak two in if youwant to, right?
So I?
Bianca Neumann (48:36):
think one is more metaphorical anyway.
So the first very metaphoricalmetaphor, I think, is that did
you hear news when one of theastronauts lost their toolkit in
space?
So that happened a couple ofmonths ago.
There's a toolkit flying outthere in space.
If anyone sees a bright light,it might be it.
So I think that goes with ourbeing an astronaut and having
(48:59):
that kind of grief, adventuremetaphor.
Anyway, somewhere there's atoolkit out there for you.
You have to find it and buildit Really there somewhere.
Claire Sandys (49:09):
Have a look, there's a free toolkit for
somebody.
Bianca Neumann (49:11):
A free toolkit.
It might have really veryexpensive tools, right, but the
other one I'd say is a holybucket with holes in it.
Have you got that in your toolshed?
No, no, I haven't got that oneRight.
It's really useful a bucketwith holes in it, because when
you think about grief going intoa bucket, if there isn't holes
in it, it keeps flowing in andstarts to overflow, right, and
(49:33):
you feel really overwhelmed, outof control, maybe not able to
cope.
But if you put holes in thatbucket and it's nice and rusty
and it's got lots of holes in itthose holes represent your
ability to self-soothe, to copedifferent things that let some
of that steam, that that griefout.
So think about your bucket andwhat those holes would be that
(49:56):
help you when you feeloverwhelmed by grief, when that
big wave of grief comes for you.
What do you need to do to makethose holes take some of that
pressure away?
Claire Sandys (50:08):
Oh, I love that you could almost use that as a
thing to water other things withas well.
Bianca Neumann (50:26):
Can nurture other things with as well, will
go into the ground and nurtureyou from going forward, but also
it teaches you about okay, I'vesurvived this moment of grief
that felt so overwhelming Icouldn't even breathe, but I did
it.
What helped?
And knowing that you did itmeans that the next time it
happens, you can remember that,knowing I can do this, I can
(50:48):
cope and I can live with grief.
Claire Sandys (50:52):
A holy bucket.
Holy?
Holey, a holey bucket.
I definitely don't have one ofthose, but I love the idea of
adding it to my shed.
I especially appreciated theway Bianca explained our need to
release that pressure of grief,to let it flow through us
instead of bottling it up andallowing it to overwhelm us, and
(51:12):
the thought that when we dothat, our grief can actually
water and nurture others alongthe way.
What a beautiful, hopeful image.
If you'd like to find out moreabout Bianca or the work of Sue
Ryder, just head over to thelinks in the show notes.
And if you're feeling alone inyour grief and need some support
, sue Ryder offers a wide rangeof resources.
You can Google 'Grief DeservesBetter' or go straight to www.
(51:33):
sueryder.
org to explore what's available,and that includes their grief
kind spaces, which are weeklyin-person drop-in sessions held
in local communities, as well astheir free online bereavement
support for anyone grieving orsupporting someone else through
grief, which includes childrenand young people.
I've put links to all this inthe show notes for easy access.
A huge thank you to Bianca forthis conversation.
(51:55):
I really believe it will helppeople not only find support in
their grief, but also feel alittle less lost in that strange
, unfamiliar territory and maybeeven take steps forward with
some new tools in hand,especially if you're the lucky
one that finds that spacetoolkit.
And if you'd like to know moreabout this podcast, how it began
, or our personal journeythrough infertility and
childlessness, you can visit www.
(52:16):
the silentwhy.
com.
This podcast is ad free, thanksto the generous support of some
wonderful people who help keepit running.
If you'd like to chip in, youcan head to www.
buy me a coffee.
com/thesilentwhy to buy me afancy tea or two as a one-off
treat, or even support thepodcast monthly.
And don't forget, there'sanother way to support the
(52:39):
podcast now you can buy a Herman.
These are small crocheted griefcompanions that I personally
hand make and sell.
They're a meaningfulalternative to send someone,
instead of flowers, somethinglasting, personal and comforting
for someone going through loss.
They also make a thoughtfulgift for those times when words
just don't feel like enough.
To find out more about him,visit www.
thehermancompany.
com and, as always, all thelinks are in the show notes.
(53:00):
Thank you for listening to TheSilent Why podcast.
If you've got a subject you'dlike me to chat to an expert on.
Please get in touch via socialmedia or the website, or via the
email, thesilentwhy@ gmail.
com and let's chat.
Hello there and thank you for joining me for
another episode of Let's Chat onThe Silent Why.
I'm Claire Sandys, and throughthis podcast, we're exploring
how and where we can find hopethrough grief and loss.
In these Let's Chat episodes, Ichat to a guest who brings
either personal experience orprofessional experience to a
specific area of loss.
Together, we're building what Ilike to call a toolshed a
(00:22):
collection of insights, ideasand support tools to help us
prepare for or navigate theinevitable losses that life is
going to bring.
In this episode, I'm chattingwith Bianca Neumann, a
healthcare professional andexperienced psychologist with a
background in palliative care,hospice work and the wider
healthcare industry.
She's also the AssistantDirector of Bereavement at Sue
(00:43):
Ryder, a charity dedicated toproviding the right support at
the right time for people whoare grieving.
Bianca lives in Norfolk, an areaI was very familiar to growing
up next to a small river, andfor my international listeners,
this is not a Norfolk accentthat you're hearing.
Bianca is originally fromGermany.
I'm really excited for you tohear this conversation because I
found so much wisdom in whatBianca shared.
(01:05):
It's full of practical tips oncoping with grief, preparing for
it and even, perhapssurprisingly, viewing it as a
kind of life adventure.
We explored what it reallymeans and doesn't mean to see
grief as an adventure how tonavigate the unfamiliar terrain
of loss, and how our stories canbecome lifelines for others.
We also talked about SueRyder's grief kind spaces and
(01:28):
the role that bereavementsupport groups can have, how
grief can mask our true selvesand the powerful idea that how
we respond to grief is, to someextent, a choice.
Bianca also shared thoughts onhow grief is often
misrepresented in the media andTV, how we can learn to
self-soothe in sorrow, and whywe tend to prepare for life's
little pains, like headaches,but not the bigger ones, like
(01:50):
grief.
One of the key takeaways fromour chat was a simple but
profound question what do youwant from life?
We only get one life and griefis something that gets weaved
into all of our stories.
It becomes part of who we are,not something to endure for a
short while like an illness.
So the question becomes what dowe want to do with that?
(02:11):
There's a lot packed into thisepisode and I really hope it
blesses you in some way, just asit's blessed me.
And of course, I'll be askingBianca what tools she wants to
add to my metaphorical tool shedthat I'm building.
It's full of equipment to helpus face and get through loss and
grief.
So grab a cup of tea, a coffee,maybe a Pimms the sun is
finally out in England this weekand relax with me and Bianca as
(02:33):
we chat the adventure of grief.
Bianca Neumann (02:38):
Hi, my name is Bianca.
I'm a psychologist.
I work for Sue Ryder as theassistant director of
bereavement and one of thethings I like to do in the
mornings, if the river isn'tfrozen, is to have Coco Pops on
my paddleboard to get into theday properly with my mind and
heart.
Claire Sandys (02:58):
I heard Coco Pops and I was like brilliant, but
then you followed it up with apaddleboard.
I've never heard that before.
How did you think of that idea?
Well, I just chuck everythinginto a little container and have
it.
It's just really nice andrelaxing to have breakfast with
a view Amazing, brilliant.
And what is your view?
So the view is generally justseeing some, you know, nice
sunrises, especially when you'rereally early, just real silence
(03:20):
, and then just seeing the oddanimal every now and then.
It's quite a small little riverin West Norfolk.
It's only about a five minutewalk with my paddleboard from
here and you generally go downone direction against the wind
and then you can just relaxcoming back because the wind
brings you back.
It's just really serene beforeyou start a really busy day.
(03:40):
I like it.
That sounds idyllic.
So you're a psychologist forSue Ryder, so tell us a little
bit about what that entails.
What do you do in a job likethat?
Bianca Neumann (03:47):
Yeah, so the psychology element is part of
who I am and what I bring to therole as an assistant director
of bereavement.
One of the things that I thinkmy job entails is to bring
cutting edge knowledge that wehave around death, dying,
bereavement, into the UK, intothe population, into the
(04:08):
organization and, with that,interventions, services, things
that should help peoplealongside of their grief.
You know, that kind of toolkitprovision that comes from a
background that has beenevidence-based, that we know
tends to work, so that we don'toffer people cowboyish
interventions and we as anorganisation provide palliative
(04:31):
and bereavement support forpeople.
So it's quite important inthose kind of big life moments
that we get it right.
So we want to ensure that whatwe offer people doesn't just
come from the heart but alsowith scientific evidence behind
it.
It's quite a specific area toget into, then.
So what ensure that what weoffer people doesn't just come
from the heart but also, youknow, with scientific evidence
behind it?
Claire Sandys (04:47):
It's quite a specific area to get into then.
So what drew you into that kindof area in particular?
Bianca Neumann (04:52):
Oh, that's a big question.
I think for me it's one of thebiggest adventures in life and
one of the scariest adventuresin life.
Personally, you know, I had alot of losses in my life and I
always wondered what are the bigquestions following that?
I think those sorts ofexperiences can really change
you and redirect you intodifferent areas.
(05:13):
You know, when I came to thecountry, I did all sorts of jobs
, first 20 odd years ago, andthen life kind of tends to
direct you into different paths,right, and you choose at
different junctions where you'regoing to go.
And so my junction was seeing alot of suffering with patients
that I worked with when I workedin the NHS and neuroservices,
(05:36):
working with people who hadstrokes, working with people
with mental health issues.
And then that made me think,hey, there has to be a better
answer to this.
We can do better as people.
There has to be solutions forpeople so we can be more human
again for when it matters.
And I didn't want to havepeople see such and experience
(05:56):
such suffering at the end oflife.
And then my mum died.
That was in Germany, and thatreally turned my world upside
down and I really felt like andwhat can I learn from that and
bring to the UK so that no one,in a sense, has to feel as
overwhelmed as I had felt, youknow, and then?
So, yeah, I guess that's whatshaped my direction, wanting to
(06:19):
make a difference for people.
And I've got a.
I've got a kid as well, and Iwanted to make sure that when I
die, my child is going to beokay.
So it's that kind of systemchange that I want to achieve,
and so I work really hard onmaking sure that what we do in
Sue Ryder is helping people inthe right way.
Claire Sandys (06:43):
Do you feel like having gone through that loss
that helps your work?
Then Are you better at what youdo because you've experienced
it personally.
Do you think?
Bianca Neumann (06:49):
I think it brings with it that kind of
sense of curiosity.
So being open to what is thatall about?
Because we don't have all theanswers when it comes to death,
dying, bereavement, right, andoften you have to have a sense
of grief or a sense of loss toreally understand more about
yourself and what life is allabout.
(07:09):
And so being open to beingproven wrong, seeing difference,
learning from other people,contact with lots of different
people from different culturesall over the world, and just
hearing the beauty, the warmthand just the variation how
(07:30):
people see and tackle and livewith loss, it's been actually
really fulfilling and andwarming and you just start to
see the world very, verydifferently, which I think is a
gift I've already said so manythings I want to focus in on.
Claire Sandys (07:47):
You've mentioned the word adventure, which is one
of the things we said we weregoing to discuss already.
There were so many areas wecould have talked about, but
that was one that you were quitekeen to explore and I love that
idea.
But also you've been talkingabout preparing other people,
helping other people to learnfrom what you've been through,
to help them in their grief, andthat's kind of what I wanted
these podcast episodesspecifically to be about to help
(08:07):
people to know that actually itdoes look terrifying from the
outside sometimes when peopleare going through grief, but
there are things you can do toequip yourself and have tools
and mental approaches to it thatcan help you to a degree once
you face it yourself.
So it's very excitingeverything that you're saying.
The adventure thing.
Tell me a bit more about that.
Why and how do you see grief asan adventure?
What does that mean and whatdoes it not mean, maybe as well?
Bianca Neumann (08:30):
Yeah, I think what it doesn't mean is that
grief doesn't come witheverything that encompasses loss
.
So by no means it means takingaway those very painful
experiences that people have.
And what I mean by adventure iswhen we think about the
definition of adventure and I'vewritten one down.
I will read it out so adventureis stepping into the unknown.
(08:52):
It's something challenging,thrilling and intimidating.
Adventure is about deliberatelyplacing yourself in challenging
situations that foster personalgrowth, and it also requires
significant effort, curiosityand determination.
And I think these are allqualities and characteristics
you bring into grief, and Ialways think of it as an
(09:15):
astronaut landing on a farawayplanet and they first put their
feet on it and they kind of knowfrom training, from hearsay,
from knowing what it takes to bean astronaut, what it might be
like when you land there.
But then, of course, you onlyknow what you already know and
once you put your feet on thisnew planet, the ground might
actually feel very, verydifferent to what you learned in
(09:38):
the books and in your training,and the sight and the
experience inside will probablyfeel very different to what, in
theory, you have learned aboutit.
And I think with grief becausewe don't learn about it at
school.
We don't get, you know,handbooks on how to do it.
We don't know until we're in itwhat that actually means.
(10:00):
And so our life map gets turnedupside down, often gets totally
erased, and then people almoststop at the edge of their map of
how they once knew their lifeto be and look at a vast
emptiness and they don't know.
There's no roads, there's nosignposts, often there's no
(10:20):
people that guide them throughit.
So, for example, we've done someresearch recently and that
showed that 88% of peopleexperience a real sense of
loneliness in that grief, andthat feeling alone means that
when they look at this empty mapthey don't know where to turn
and what the next best stepwould be, just like an astronaut
(10:41):
on a faraway planet.
So then it comes to the sense ofadventure.
Right, people at first are veryparalyzed by their sense of
loss and by this sheer emptinessin front of them.
And then, through time andtrying and having that
determination of I'm a survivor,life means living.
(11:02):
Living means anything fromhaving to go to the shop to buy
milk, to get yourself out of bed, to go to work, make sure the
kids are ready and go make surethat the car has got an MOT all
the way to all thoseinterpersonal relationships, and
as people start to go back intothat empty space, they leave
(11:22):
footprints, but they also startto make decisions alongside on
their path.
Do I turn left?
Do I turn right?
What is out there for me?
And I think there's a realsense of adventure underlying
that.
Claire Sandys (11:32):
I was just thinking.
When you say footprints, isthat the sort of thing other
people can follow, then do youthink, do you think you can
watch somebody doing thatjourney and it can help you when
you get there?
Bianca Neumann (11:40):
The beauty in being human is that human nature
means that we are people fullof stories.
If we go back in time, you know, sitting around a fire, when we
were cave people, we wouldcommunicate with hands and feet
and pictures.
We would leave pictures behindto tell stories of who we are
and then, as we started to, youknow, become verbal.
(12:01):
We would tell each otherstories about the ancestors,
about how to do things, how tolook out for that saber-toothed
tiger, where to get the bestberries from, and so we're
people made of stories, havinglearned from those who have been
before.
And so I think what helpspeople a lot is that peer
support when they're grieving,because they can really start to
(12:24):
see themselves in.
Someone else kind of understandswhat I'm going through and what
we often see in, for example,our grief kind spaces, which are
peer to peer support sessionsall across the country that
people can learn from others inthe same boat.
So people often come into thesekind of grief camp spaces or
(12:47):
bereavement cafes or any kind ofgrief group and say you know, I
don't know what's out there forme, I just can't see a way
forward without the person in mylife.
And then they speak to someonewithin the group, for example,
who says you know, I know whatit was like being where you are
now and I didn't know a way.
(13:08):
But actually life then justkind of happened and it's got so
much to give and let me tellyou how I got to where I am now,
which is that thing of learningfrom our elder, from those who
have survived it, and how theysurvive it and how they embrace
life again, how they engage inlife as an adventure, is what
(13:31):
brings us growth and hope and abit of a guide on how to do this
.
Claire Sandys (13:36):
Definitely I identify with so much of what
you're saying.
I remember when I lost mygrandpa and he was ill for a
little while beforehand it wasquite a shock still, it was like
a heart attack and I had thephone call to say he'd gone and
I honestly the day before wouldhave told you that when I heard
that phone call I was expectingit.
I couldn't imagine it being abig deal.
But when you actually hear thewords that someone's gone, like
you said, it's just like landingon that planet.
(13:57):
It's a completely differentexperience and feeling than you
thought it was going to be, eventhough it was almost expected
and it was in the natural orderof things.
And it's still something thatjust really hits you in a way.
And I haven't lost any parentsor anything, so you know, not
got to that stage, but I canimagine the shock and, like you
said, that environment you'resuddenly thrown into that is so
different from what you expect.
(14:18):
But also I remember speaking topeople for many years, even
before the podcast and then now,especially with people I've
spoken to on here, hearing ofstories of how they've got
through things, how they've losta partner, in horrific
circumstances sometimes, but howthey're sat there chatting to
me even as little as a yearlater and they're getting
through it.
(14:38):
And I have really clung tostuff like that and thought,
okay, well, if they're doing it,it's possible.
And I really think that even ifit happened now, my world got
turned upside down.
There would be something in theback of my mind saying we've
seen others go through this.
It might be bad now, but youwill get there, just keep going,
keep going, keep going.
And that, for me, is reallyhelpful, because I think some
people just look at grief andthey don't want to be in that
(14:59):
situation, so they just shutdown the whole thought of it,
and I think that's dangerous,because then I think it's even
more unfamiliar when you land init.
But I can understand why peopledo.
I guess the adventure of griefwould be a hard sell for a lot
of people.
Would you find that some peoplewould not want to experience
that, even if it is an adventure, because they're just too
scared to think about thatsubject?
Bianca Neumann (15:17):
Well, grief is something that happens to all of
us and I think if we think ofgrief as a natural reaction of
loss to any kind, all of us willhave had a natural reaction to
loss of any kind, whether youknow that's breaking up with our
first love, you know our firstcar giving up the ghost, moving
house, starting a new job.
(15:38):
You know losing maybe somethingreally important in the drain
somewhere because you were a bitclumsy.
But all of these times in ourlife where we experience loss,
they teach us about loss of aperson too.
So, whilst people are saying Idon't want to see it as an
adventure, when you're in it atthe beginning, as I can say from
(15:59):
experience, it does not feellike an adventure, right,
because you're just making it upas you go along.
You're just in this kind of bigpool of emotions inside and out
and the world as you know it isno longer the same and it can
feel like a very strange place,like you've been put on some
planet where they talk a verydifferent language and no one
(16:20):
understands what you're talkingabout.
But you know what patients havetaught me when I was a
practitioner working in ahospice.
Still, there was a person, forexample, who I still remember
very well, whose grief meantthat she no longer could
actually get into a car anddrive anywhere because her route
(16:41):
would always be going past theplace where her child died and
through talking about it andremembering who she once was and
she loved driving a car and sheloved going to see friends and
she loved to go to daily walks,she loved doing lots of things.
(17:02):
But when we grieve we oftenforget the strength, the
resilience, the person we aredeep inside, because it's so
covered up by all this griefstuff that starting to get in
touch with aspects of who we aremeans that we can have real
personal growth in the face ofloss.
And this particular personthroughout talking, talking
(17:25):
about it and reminding her whoshe is and was meant that one
day she came to me and said,look, I've driven here today,
amazing.
And we both cried.
Or you know another patient whowas always in the military and
everything was always very rigid, and then grief happened.
Of course, there's no rules ingrief, there's no uniformity in
(17:46):
grief.
You just have to go bananaswith whatever you have inside
and this person could not seeany beauty, any real life that
is left to live, but by thinkingabout this is your new map,
what do you want to put in yourmap?
As daunting as it was, heactually turned out to, over
(18:08):
time, grow his hair, learn howto fly an airplane, go on a
motorbike, did parachute jumpingand learned dancing Wow,
something very, very differentto who he thought he was.
So life turned out to be anadventure for both of these
people because they reallystarted to engage with who am I?
(18:30):
Who do I want to be, now thatmy life has changed and there is
actually opportunity to grow myown map.
And you know, in life we don'treally often get a time where
everything is put on standby andwe look around ourselves and
think do I want this, how do Iwant my life to be and look like
(18:50):
, what do I want from life?
This one life I have, and griefoften forces us into a position
like that it's interestingbecause what you're saying
involves it is a choice, isn'tit?
Claire Sandys (19:01):
people have to get to a point of making a
choice to do something to growpersonally, or to make a change
or to be brave.
How do people come to that?
Is that something you can do onyour own, or do you think you
need help from outside tounderstand that?
Maybe it's even an option tomake a choice?
Bianca Neumann (19:18):
I think it's probably a mixture.
I think once you're in thereally deep grief time, there is
not much thinking that is beingdone because your brain is very
busy feeling lots of things andstaying alive and doing the
minimum basics to keep alive.
But over time, as your brainstarts to calm down and your
(19:42):
body starts to calm down, youstart to think about things a
bit more, and that's whenpersonal choice also comes in.
So again, that goes back towhat kind of person am I?
Am I a victim of life wherethings get to me and I always
needed maybe this other personto help me out and help me out
(20:05):
of these dark days?
And do I also have thatresilience inside of me that got
me through some tough timesbefore?
Because, you know, we are all,ultimately, individuals on this
planet with our own choices, ourown behaviors, and so people
come to a point where theyactually say, often in these
peer support groups or on ouronline community, for example,
(20:29):
they will say by today I'vewoken up and I've made a choice.
I have to live this life, andthe person that has died
wouldn't want me to just sit athome and be upset.
They would want me to go onthis cruise or start to learn
how to play football or learnhow to ride a motorbike.
(20:50):
So people are making choicesinto their next adventure and
what that map looks like.
But sometimes people might getinto a situation of grief with
pre-existing mental healthissues.
Maybe they've always been quitealone and never really had
someone who says you're a goodperson, I know you are very
(21:11):
resilient and you can make itthrough tough times.
You know that reassurance thatwe all need growing up, or
people are just absolutelyoverwhelmed by their kind of
place that they're in, sosuddenly things just don't seem
the same at all anymore.
You know, for example, in mypersonal journey when my mom
(21:31):
died, I was looking in themirror and I sometimes didn't
know what sort of person am Ithat I couldn't help my mom to
live.
You know, and I've worked withdying people and there was
nothing that could stop me.
It was all very unrealistic, ofcourse, because everyone dies.
But there comes this point insomeone's grief journey where
(21:51):
they have to think about theexperience that they had around
the death and how that impactedtheir sense of who they are.
And sometimes that comes withsome complications where people
are very, very lost.
And so this is where peoplemight seek a therapy service
(22:11):
like the one that we offer inSurida.
We offer a free online grieftherapy service, and then people
have those six sessions with usand they start to ask these big
life questions, maybe sometimesfor the first time who am I?
What's out there for me, how doI get there?
And through someone listeningand, in a way, guiding them and
(22:35):
virtually holding their hand,but also emotionally engaging
with their sense of loss, thatcan bring them to a point of
growth and knowing more, what'snext for them yeah, because
grief is you know.
Claire Sandys (22:49):
You hear people talking and they'll say that you
know, once you've been throughgrief, it's part of who you are
for the rest of your life.
However you deal with it, it'sthere, but you are a slightly
new version of yourself.
So it makes sense that peoplejust lose that identity for a
while and have to almost figureout what's the new identity.
And I love the idea ofreminding people in the right
(23:11):
space and people you know well,in the right context and
everything, of the strengthsthat they had as a person before
and knowing that they will.
You know, I mean you've got tobe very careful with this
because you don't just go up tosomeone who's grieving and say,
oh, you're a strong person,you'll be fine.
So I don't mean it like that,but like you were talking about
just calling out those thingsand reminding them of all the
good things, because they mayhave lost that identity of who
(23:32):
they are and when they're tryingto reshape it, they have
choices, don't they?
They could be the grievingwidow forever that never gets
out of it, never finds hope,never wants to change.
I mean that is a choice youcould make, but there are other
choices you can make.
So I love that you can helppeople in what you do and in
therapy sessions and speaking toother people that are in the
same boat that help you findthat new identity that help you
(23:54):
find that new identity.
Bianca Neumann (23:58):
And I think often what's missing in the
population across the world ishaving those elders to go to,
having that kind of tribalknowledge of things.
So this is one of the reasonswhy in Surida we're trying to
increase people's grief anddeath literacy.
So knowing more about death,dying, bereavement, ideally
before it happens to you, meansthat you have a couple of bits
(24:19):
in your toolkit already and alittle bit of an idea.
It's a bit like you know whenyou see people with a small kid
and the kid runs off and youjust think, oh, this child is
going to fall over and hurtthemselves and then that happens
right.
And then you see the parentskind of going oh no, this is
going to be terrible, there willbe blood and there'll be lots
of screaming.
(24:40):
But as they go to the child thatis kind of looking at what am I
meant to do?
Should I cry or be okay aboutthis?
They look at the parent, theylook at the people around them.
Are they looking freaked out?
Or do they look calm andexplain what's happening and
tend to it calmly?
And then you learn from thosepeople as you grow up.
I can survive a fall.
It doesn't take away the pain,but it's something that I can
(25:03):
live with and that prepares youfor the next fall.
So when you fall again, youlearn there will be blood, there
will be scars, there will beextra pain and a bit of soreness
maybe afterwards, but it'ssomething you survive and grief
is a bit like that, I think yeah, that reminds me of a.
Claire Sandys (25:20):
I was with a friend many years ago and her
daughter did exactly that.
She was at a distance, she ranand fell and the mother was with
me and she just stayed with meand she was just watching her
and she said don't cry, don'tcry.
She was just like seeing whathappened.
And, sure enough, the girl gotup, looked around the mum hadn't
rushed over and she just got upand carried on.
And the mum turned to me andshe was like I'm so proud of her
, she was so proud she just gotup and she got on with it.
(25:41):
She wasn't damaged, it wasn't abad one.
But I just thought, yeah,that's so interesting.
Now you said that of course,the parents' reaction is going
to guide that.
I did psychology for a while and, as they're pack animals, it
frustrates me a lot when peoplehave dogs and they freak out at
certain situations.
And again there's that looktowards the pack and the owner.
(26:02):
How do I respond to this?
And when I had my dog, I wasvery kind of strong on making
sure he didn't freak out atthings when he was a puppy, like
fireworks and stuff.
So we would go out in thegarden and watch the fireworks
together when he was older,because there was a.
I mean, obviously I had him fromscratch so it's easier to deal
with.
But I taught him he would lookto me and if he got a bit scared
, you know, I kind of ignored ita bit like no, this is fine,
(26:23):
it's a normal situation, it's OK, but that was a packed
situation.
They look to each other and wedon't have that in communities
anymore, like you said.
Well, we have the elders, wehave the leaders that show us
how to get through these thingsor we can watch them and know,
and I think that's a shame and,like you said, a lot of people
feel very lonely, in grief, andI suspect that's why we've lost
that community feel.
Bianca Neumann (26:42):
Yeah, and I think the way that death, dying,
bereavement is depicted, forexample, in the media is very
extreme.
We see these big headlines oftenor throughout COVID, you know,
on TV we saw some reallytraumatic experiences around
death, dying, bereavement On TV.
(27:02):
You know, through Disney filmswe often learn very toned down
versions of it and even oftenthose grief experiences and
end-of-life experiences arefairly neutralized.
So, for example, still now alot of people think that all
grief is because someone's lovedone has died, when actually
(27:25):
often also the person that hasdied might have been an abuser,
you know, a perpetrator, someonewho might have been unavailable
emotionally, or abusive, or notnecessarily just a loved one.
So grief might be expected tobe looking like sadness and that
real hard, deep kind of sorrow,when for some people grief
(27:49):
might actually also be relief, asense of freedom, maybe even
happiness.
You know, and I think that hugespectrum of what grief might
look like, feel like, sound like, smell like, taste like,
because in many cultures griefis shared by sharing food, you
(28:11):
know that is often lost and Ithink what I've learned from
working with people from othercultures and communities all
over the world is just howisolated and clinical grief has
become, particularly here in theWest.
Claire Sandys (28:27):
Yeah, it's hard because, as you're talking, I'm
thinking to myself of all theamazing things I've heard people
say about grief and goingthrough grief.
All the amazing things I'veheard people say about grief and
going through grief, Beautifulstories and encounters, you know
, with other people, with thingsin nature, how different they
are.
A new appreciation for life,doing new things.
(28:48):
So many good things and yet atthe same time, if we're all
honest, even if it looks amazing, there's something in us that's
going to be like I don't wantto go through it, because to get
to those good experiences, Ihave to go through the really
awful bit.
So I'm sort of thinking,instead of thinking, this is an
adventure you choose to go on.
It's like you said at thebeginning everyone goes through
grief.
So this should be more of anencouragement that, as and when
it happens to you, it doesn'thave to be all bad.
(29:10):
There can be things that youcan have in it and it's a very
difficult thing to say.
You know that it's an adventure.
I've got a podcast episode thatwe've put out that's talking to
a girl about going through somereally lovely experiences in
life.
So she's got married again andshe's pregnant, but she'd been
through infertility and a brokenmarriage, and she's talking
about the loss that has come andthe grief in the good moments.
(29:33):
And it's a difficult episode todo and she was really nervous
about talking about it becauseshe said I don't want to sound
ungrateful, but there's been alot of grief attached with these
new things.
I never thought I'd be a mum.
Now I'm pregnant.
It's been very confusing andI've had some stuff to grieve
and think about from the pastand so it is so complicated.
I don't know where I'm goingwith this.
But yeah, it's like how do yousell it almost?
(29:55):
How do you show people griefisn't all bad and that it is an
adventure, without them justsaying, yeah, but I don't want
to go on that adventure.
Bianca Neumann (30:03):
Yes, that is a very big life question.
You got there and I think it's.
Sometimes, I guess, peoplemedicalize grief.
It's a bit like you have a cold, then you go through the
motions of having cold, then itgoes, then you're fine, you know
, might be a bit tired, but thenyou're okay again.
But grief is something that isbecoming part of who we are.
(30:26):
It lives within us, in our skin, in our, in our words and our
story right, and so it is weavedinto our very being.
And I think, if we think aboutlife overall, from the moment
we're alive to the moment we die, there are ups and downs that
shape us.
There is moments where we havedays of nothingness and then we
(30:50):
have busy days and we have greatdays and memorable days and
really warm moments and verylonely moments, and with grief
it just becomes part of that.
And sometimes it attachesitself to good moments and we
feel the good.
And then sometimes it attachesitself to moments that might be
(31:12):
more traditionally associatedwith, you know, the sorrow, the
loss, the sadness that comeswith it.
And I guess for me the hope isin understanding that life is
one big adventure.
We don't know what.
We might have an experience init.
But whatever we might have anexperience in it can have grief
(31:37):
in it and we can survive it andwe can enjoy those days and
moments, seconds, you know,hours, days, months, with it
being a bit of a feature, moreor less, sometimes more,
sometimes a little bit moresubdued.
But there is life worth livingand a life that we must live,
(31:57):
and it's a mixture of havingchoice, of how we choose to live
what we have.
Make the most of it, and maybewe will need some support in
having that guidance yeah, Ilove that.
Claire Sandys (32:11):
Seeing life as a whole as adventure, and grief is
just part of that for everybody.
It's not a case of if and whenthis might come, it's like it's
just part of it.
It's part of your wholeadventure.
It's going to be there, soyou're going to have ups and
downs, and some of those will begrief and some will be other
things, but tell us about someof the ups of grief then.
What are some of the thingsthat I've mentioned earlier?
Bianca Neumann (32:29):
you know just how they find by doing that,
life has got a lot to give and Ithink often we know from when
someone's died that people willstart in small steps.
It's actually called the dualprocess model.
(32:49):
So you're kind of oscillating,moving between what I call the
world of the living and theworld of the dead, moving
between what I call the world ofthe living and the world of the
dead.
So you're learning by doingthings for the sake of doing
them, like going to getgroceries, going to work,
washing yourself, washing yourclothes.
All of that people often sayfeels like meaningless, just
(33:15):
doing it, no emotions attached,you're just going through the
motions.
But over time they findthemselves laughing again or
smiling, and then they feel badfor laughing and smiling because
they move from the world of theof the dead to the world of the
living, because living peoplemust experience life.
And over time that oscillation,that moving between those
worlds, gets more fluid and lesssevere, less intense sometimes
(33:39):
most of the time, and that'swhen people notice those kind of
good moments, how grief canactually transpire into
something meaningful.
And this is, I think, wherepeople start to, for example,
make new friendships.
A lot of people find a sense ofbeing alone in grief, as we
(34:00):
found through our research, andwhen they start to reach out.
For example, when I've met somepeople in one of those
bereavement cafes and thebereavement group, people would
come to that group.
I remember one particularperson breaking down on the
stairs into the group and acouple of people from within the
seated circle got up and saidwe know what that feels like.
(34:23):
Come here, come talk to us,what's your name?
And a few minutes later thatperson was no longer crying.
They were talking and engaged.
And a few weeks later they cameand said oh, you know, we've
been out every time after this,after we meet here with the
group, we actually go and havelunch and we're probably all
(34:44):
going to go on a cruise togetherbecause we all made friends.
And you see them find theirheart again.
You find them feeling usefulagain and like someone who isn't
just defined by grief but bywho they really are.
We had people helping eachother to finish knitting a baby
jumper because they never knewhow to learn knitting.
(35:07):
So there were people in thegroup that said I help, you,
have a go.
And you know, people foundtheir calling there.
What's my point in life?
By being with other people?
And I think that goes back tothat tribal thing of grieving in
isolation is never a good ideano you.
You already feel alone enough inyour heart when you grieve.
(35:27):
You don't also have to feelalone being amongst so many
people.
And if you think about how bigthis grief club is, how many
millions of people are grievingat any time in the world today,
right now, or freshly grievingfrom today, there is someone out
there who understands whatyou're going through.
(35:47):
And this is the adventuredefinition, stuff about
determination, making an effort,making a choice to go out there
and be amongst others.
Claire Sandys (35:59):
It's so difficult , isn't it?
Because it does revolve againaround so much choice.
You're in that worst place youcan be.
You've lost your identity, it'san alien world, and then you've
got to get out and go and sit ina group of new people, which is
terrifying for some people, atthe best of times, let alone in
grief grief, but the benefits ofdoing that if you can bring
yourself to to get to that pointare just huge, and I've only
(36:21):
heard good stuff about peoplegetting in amongst you know
people going through similarthings, because there's just
nothing like being with someonewho knows exactly what you're
going through.
I think that's very powerfuland anything they say at that
point has more power, because ifthey're saying you know there
is hope you can through this, itmeans something from someone
who's already been through it Onthe other end of the scale.
I remember when we were firstchatting about this and what we
(36:41):
would talk about, you mentionedself-soothing and I'd never
heard that mentioned beforeoutside of babies.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat that means.
Bianca Neumann (36:49):
OK.
So the idea of being soothed isthat often we get a sense of
calm and feeling soothed throughothers and that's kind of
neurotransmitters and stuff thathappens in our brain when we
get a cuddle from someone orwhen we have a warm blanket over
us, that kind of sense offeeling safe and okay.
And when someone dies, oftencortisol our kind of stress
(37:14):
response to things is ruling ourbody.
So we don't feel safe, we don'tfeel calm, we don't feel
soothed.
And if, for example, we havemoments or longer periods of
time where we don't have someoneto give us a hug, to give us
that sense of feeling calm andsoothed, then self-soothing
(37:36):
becomes very important.
And that's something we havelearned from babies.
When babies kind of scream andcry and don't stop for a long
time, most of the time don't seepeople holding the baby and
telling them.
Well, what's going on in yourbrain is lots of cortisol flying
around that's making you upsetand you're most likely to of tea
(37:56):
and maybe you have some wind.
This is what I'm seeing.
Your intestine, you have.
You have this thing called anintestine.
So we don't go intellectual onthem, but instead we find our
own calm to deal with the baby,because we're mirroring that
this is something that does notrequire screaming and that you
can learn from that calm andthat, in essence, also helps us
(38:19):
to be calm.
Now we learn that over time aschildren, adolescents and then
into adulthood, and whensituations overwhelm us, we can
tune into that learned skill sowe can think about things that
soothe us, and I often talkabout, you know, having a bit of
a toolkit for yourself.
(38:41):
So in when life is sort ofnormal average, if there is such
thing, let's say an averageMonday, when you have a
stressful day at work maybe somestress with with relatives,
maybe some, I don't know ifsomething's come through the
post that is upsetting you whatdo you do to help you feel calm
(39:02):
and soothed?
So some people maybe, like me,go and do mountain climbing just
to feel that kind ofexhilarating thrill because that
trumps the stress that you hadfrom that builders just come
through the door, right, yeah.
Other people might go and dosome yoga because that they find
that inner calm.
Some people might like a hotbath because feeling warm and
(39:25):
covered and you know, they canjust find that self-soothing in
that.
We all have our own ways to dothat and I think what we can do
a bit like that grief literacythat I was talking about is to
think about how do I preparemyself for those tough times in
life?
You know, make yourself a bitof a self-prescription of
(39:48):
self-soothing tools.
What helps you?
Because then, when it comes toa time where you need
self-soothing, where you need tohave a strategy or something at
hand that helps you feel calm,safe and content to a point that
you are able to switch off alittle bit from the stress, from
the overwhelmedness, you cangrab that list and you can
(40:11):
follow your own prescription ofdoing that.
Claire Sandys (40:13):
That's a great idea.
It reminds me of our second.
I think it was the second everepisode we did, and the lady we
were chatting to had developedwith a friend this pack of cards
52 cards.
Looked like a pack, reallycolourful, but in it was things
you could do, and it might havebeen have a glass of water, take
a bath, take three deep breaths, loads of stuff and you could
use it as prompts to lookthrough and think what do I feel
(40:35):
like doing?
What would help me in thismoment when you can't think of
all the options?
Sometimes?
Have a, you know, have a cup oftea, go for a walk lots of
simple things, but sometimes youforget when you're in that
moment, you forget they're there.
So I love the idea of knowingwhat self soothes you.
So you've got something to goto.
Yeah, as this, like this, iswhat helps me, this is what puts
me in a slightly better frameof mind, and so, yeah, that's
really important.
Bianca Neumann (40:55):
I've never heard that talked about for adults
before yeah, and I think itrequires that preparation is
that when we have a headache,you know, we're now kind of
conditioned to go and grab, youknow, paracetamol or ibuprofen
or something, because we knowthat helps the headache, but we
don't really do that forsoothing.
We know what we need to takewhen we need to be alert, you
(41:16):
know, and we go and get onecoffee after the other sort of
thing, or when we feel cold wehave a cup of tea.
You know there's that kind ofsense of we already have them in
other areas of life, but wedon't prepare for those big
moments.
And when the big moment happenswe haven't got time to really
think and prepare because we'rein it and that requires enough
yeah, yeah, so interesting.
Claire Sandys (41:37):
I'm thinking back over the things I do now and I
think, oh yeah, they areself-soothing, and it would be a
bath with a good book, like aromance book, something that
takes me away from everythingthat's simply, simply written, I
can enjoy, or just, like yousaid, a blanket and a hot water
bottle, those sort of things.
I look back and I think of themas things that I've just sort of
got to a point and I'm justdoing it.
I haven't thought about it, asactually, that is specifically
(41:58):
self-soothing and something Ican choose to go and do when I
need that.
So that's a really interesting,just a tiny mind shift.
But knowing the things you doalready and then labelling them
as your self-soothing things, Ithink that's a great practical
tip for us to remember and go to.
So these are all such goodthings to do and learn, and
there's so many tips and toolshere.
What's the hardest bit aboutadopting them, though?
(42:19):
If people are sat there andjust like, oh, I don't know
where to begin with, what do youtend to find are the blocks
that stop people putting thesethings in place?
Bianca Neumann (42:26):
Okay, there are probably a couple of blocks.
I think the first one is griefis exhausting and it requires an
effort to do anything that youdon't already do.
Um, so it requires an effortlike, um, you know a lot of
people in January they say I'mgoing to start going to the gym
and they sign up and they go acouple of times and then they
(42:46):
just pay for a few months fornot doing anything.
Yeah, and and because it aneffort, it's a change of doing
things differently, and changerequires energy, and most people
don't have energy when they'regrieving.
So it feels reallycounterintuitive to invest into
doing something when you alreadyfeel like you haven't got much
(43:07):
left to give.
But it is the best medicine atthe same time.
So going out there and doingthings whilst not feeling like
it's actually helping and itwon't feel like it's helping or
doing anything for a long timeactually helps.
So people have to just tellthemselves and we've got this
(43:27):
saying in German and ittranslates into from nothing
comes nothing, and often when Ihave days, or had days in my
life, where I felt like I can'teven face the day, or this is
too much or this is too hard,for example, with doing uni work
or when I had my ownbereavements.
It feels like that sentencereally resonates from nothing
(43:48):
comes nothing.
So I have to do something tomake a something happen.
And so people need to dosomething to make a something
happen, you know.
And so people need to somehowbe able to challenge the.
What do I need to do to makemyself be the best medicine for
this with this?
Yeah, and I think breakingthrough that kind of cycle of
feeling almost paralyzed by theexperience is really important,
(44:12):
and I think one big part of thatis also kind of societally.
You know, we've really startedto become a kind of
service-seeking society wherewhatever goes on, there's
someone who can solve that forus.
If your heel breaks on your shoe, you know to take it to a shoe
person that fixes it.
If your car breaks, there's acar person to do it.
(44:35):
If your roof breaks, you knowif things break, there is a fix
for it.
If we get sick, there's adoctor who should, or who we
expect will, have a fix for it.
Right, a medicine, somethingthat stops it from hurting,
feeling ill, being ill, fromhurting, feeling ill, being ill,
and with grief.
(44:56):
I think we are so conditionedinto approaching life in that
way now that we're hoping thatsomeone has got a cure for it.
Someone can fix it for us,someone out there, and there are
people who can help, soothe youand help you along your journey
and guide you to an extent.
But ultimately, this is yourastronaut journey.
This is your adventure, yourpath, your map, and it's you
(45:22):
that has to figure out what tomake of it.
But also keep your eyes openand see what life has to give
and what those differentjunctions might be, and don't
let fear hold you back.
Claire Sandys (45:34):
And it's sort of prioritizing mental, spiritual,
emotional health as well.
I think when you're grievingand everything's gone out the
window, you might still betaking tablets for something
physical that's going on withyou.
You might not stop that andthen suffer the consequences
because you know you need tokeep taking it.
But we wouldn't necessarilythink that we need to be taking
steps towards helping mental andemotional and spiritual health
at that point, which might bereaching out for help or going
(45:57):
to a group.
They're still not on equalfooting.
We put physical first so oftenand feel like, yeah, that's
something I need to, I need tosort, and it is kind of physical
, I guess, with grief.
But, um, I feel like those arethe sort of things we would get
out of bed to do.
Or I need to go and take mytablet, so I need to do this,
meanwhile neglecting otherthings we could be doing that
would be helping us in differentways yeah, I mean, for example,
you know some people might beactually coping quite well
(46:20):
overall, emotionally with theirgrief, but maybe financially it
has the biggest impact.
Bianca Neumann (46:27):
You know the fallout from from a bereavement,
and so again, you know there isdifferent support organizations
out there that can help withfinances, for example.
Or you might have to talk toyour employer when you just feel
very griefy, to help make thatpart of your life better,
(46:47):
because that then has an impacton your ability to grieve well.
So again, it might not all beabout how you tackle the
emotional fallout of grief, butall of those factors that almost
interfere with it or that driveyou into a different direction
with your grief that feels likesomething you can't manage or
(47:09):
feels overwhelming.
And of course I would alwayssay, if you worry about how you
are grieving, if you feel likeyou're not getting out of bed,
you're neglecting yourself, youcan't find anything that soothes
you, you can't go and buy thatbread from the supermarket, you
just can't face the world.
Go and talk to your GP, becausethere's always solutions,
(47:30):
signposts, and it's often reallyimportant to just say these
things out loud, maybe for thefirst time, and that can help
Again, mapping those first stepson that empty map.
So never feel like you'refailing at grief, because you're
doing it and you're doing itwell and you're doing it to the
best of your abilities.
(47:51):
And just see what it brings youas well.
Claire Sandys (47:54):
Perfect, perfect ending before I ask my last
question.
Yes, and I'm really glad thatyou reminded people about all
the other aspects, because we doforget about the fact that it
can be, you know, financial andhousing situations and all kinds
of stuff that are affected bygrief that people struggle with,
and it's not talked about asmuch as it can be more
embarrassing to talk about thatsometimes.
So that's a really goodreminder.
So if I'm going into mymetaphorical tool shed so you've
(48:15):
got your toolkit I'm trying tobuild a shed with all these
garden tools in it that can helpus in various ways.
If I went in to get a tool thatrepresented grief being an
adventure, what tool do youthink that would be?
Bianca Neumann (48:27):
Oh, that's a good one.
I mean, I have two pictures inmy mind, am.
Claire Sandys (48:31):
I only allowed one.
Well, you know, a lot of peoplehave snuck two in, so I have to
let you sneak two in if youwant to, right?
So I?
Bianca Neumann (48:36):
think one is more metaphorical anyway.
So the first very metaphoricalmetaphor, I think, is that did
you hear news when one of theastronauts lost their toolkit in
space?
So that happened a couple ofmonths ago.
There's a toolkit flying outthere in space.
If anyone sees a bright light,it might be it.
So I think that goes with ourbeing an astronaut and having
(48:59):
that kind of grief, adventuremetaphor.
Anyway, somewhere there's atoolkit out there for you.
You have to find it and buildit Really there somewhere.
Claire Sandys (49:09):
Have a look, there's a free toolkit for
somebody.
Bianca Neumann (49:11):
A free toolkit.
It might have really veryexpensive tools, right, but the
other one I'd say is a holybucket with holes in it.
Have you got that in your toolshed?
No, no, I haven't got that oneRight.
It's really useful a bucketwith holes in it, because when
you think about grief going intoa bucket, if there isn't holes
in it, it keeps flowing in andstarts to overflow, right, and
(49:33):
you feel really overwhelmed, outof control, maybe not able to
cope.
But if you put holes in thatbucket and it's nice and rusty
and it's got lots of holes in itthose holes represent your
ability to self-soothe, to copedifferent things that let some
of that steam, that that griefout.
So think about your bucket andwhat those holes would be that
(49:56):
help you when you feeloverwhelmed by grief, when that
big wave of grief comes for you.
What do you need to do to makethose holes take some of that
pressure away?
Claire Sandys (50:08):
Oh, I love that you could almost use that as a
thing to water other things withas well.
Bianca Neumann (50:26):
Can nurture other things with as well, will
go into the ground and nurtureyou from going forward, but also
it teaches you about okay, I'vesurvived this moment of grief
that felt so overwhelming Icouldn't even breathe, but I did
it.
What helped?
And knowing that you did itmeans that the next time it
happens, you can remember that,knowing I can do this, I can
(50:48):
cope and I can live with grief.
Claire Sandys (50:52):
A holy bucket.
Holy?
Holey, a holey bucket.
I definitely don't have one ofthose, but I love the idea of
adding it to my shed.
I especially appreciated theway Bianca explained our need to
release that pressure of grief,to let it flow through us
instead of bottling it up andallowing it to overwhelm us, and
(51:12):
the thought that when we dothat, our grief can actually
water and nurture others alongthe way.
What a beautiful, hopeful image.
If you'd like to find out moreabout Bianca or the work of Sue
Ryder, just head over to thelinks in the show notes.
And if you're feeling alone inyour grief and need some support
, sue Ryder offers a wide rangeof resources.
You can Google 'Grief DeservesBetter' or go straight to www.
(51:33):
sueryder.
org to explore what's available,and that includes their grief
kind spaces, which are weeklyin-person drop-in sessions held
in local communities, as well astheir free online bereavement
support for anyone grieving orsupporting someone else through
grief, which includes childrenand young people.
I've put links to all this inthe show notes for easy access.
A huge thank you to Bianca forthis conversation.
(51:55):
I really believe it will helppeople not only find support in
their grief, but also feel alittle less lost in that strange
, unfamiliar territory and maybeeven take steps forward with
some new tools in hand,especially if you're the lucky
one that finds that spacetoolkit.
And if you'd like to know moreabout this podcast, how it began
, or our personal journeythrough infertility and
childlessness, you can visit www.
(52:16):
the silentwhy.
com.
This podcast is ad free, thanksto the generous support of some
wonderful people who help keepit running.
If you'd like to chip in, youcan head to www.
buy me a coffee.
com/thesilentwhy to buy me afancy tea or two as a one-off
treat, or even support thepodcast monthly.
And don't forget, there'sanother way to support the
(52:39):
podcast now you can buy a Herman.
These are small crocheted griefcompanions that I personally
hand make and sell.
They're a meaningfulalternative to send someone,
instead of flowers, somethinglasting, personal and comforting
for someone going through loss.
They also make a thoughtfulgift for those times when words
just don't feel like enough.
To find out more about him,visit www.
thehermancompany.
com and, as always, all thelinks are in the show notes.
(53:00):
Thank you for listening to TheSilent Why podcast.
If you've got a subject you'dlike me to chat to an expert on.
Please get in touch via socialmedia or the website, or via the
email, thesilentwhy@ gmail.
com and let's chat.
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