Loss 59/101: Loss of a police career and self-worth: Ken Anderson

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
My name is Ken, and I'm here totalk about the loss of my police
career, which led to my loss ofself worth.
Welcome to The Silent Why thepodcast exploring 101 different
types of loss through thestories of those who have lived
them. I'm Claire.
And I'm Chris, and this is loss59 of 101 and today we're joined

(00:23):
by retired police officer KenAnderson from York in England,
who had to step away from acareer that he loved.
The pride that I had for it wasjust amazing, even now, just the
smile on my face when I thinkabout how much I challenged
myself and how much I'd workedto get into the position that I
had real pride in. It was justreally special time for me.

(00:44):
Ken served nearly 20 years inthe police force as a response
officer, Firearms Officer, atrainer, but sadly, this all
ended in a way that he neverexpected, following a nasty car
crash during a police chase.
Ken's front line career endedabruptly due to injury. What
happened next triggered a mentalhealth decline that brought him
to rock bottom in july 2023.
It's awful to say, but when Iwas standing on the edge of the

(01:08):
cliff wanting to jump and I wasat peace with what I was about
to do, my love for my children,my love for my partner, my love
for my family, my love for myfriends, was completely and
utterly consumed and overpoweredby my hatred of self, I would
die for my children. That is astrong, powerful love, isn't it,
but to have a deeper hatred thatyou would kill yourself, that's

(01:33):
a tough thing to fight and workthrough.
His journey through depression,self doubt and grief over losing
the 'police family' that heloved is raw and powerful, but
this story isn't just aboutloss. It's also about hope.
Today, Ken is passionate abouthelping others avoid what he
went through. Through hisbusiness, Phoenix Rises, he
delivers communication workshopsand advocates for workplace

(01:54):
change, especially for menstruggling in silence.
Hold on, no matter how bad youthink it is, even if it's just
the hope that tomorrow will bebetter, hold on to that, and you
will get there. And there's somany people out there that will
support you and talk to you andhelp guide you through things.

(02:14):
It may not seem like it, butwhat's fact and what's thought?
He's here to share, how threesimple words, are you okay?
Saved his life, and how he'sturning his pain into purpose.
This conversation dives into thedepths of depression, the
challenges of emergency servicecareers, and why we need to
rethink how we support eachother at work and beyond.
And of course, we'll end withour signature question, what's

(02:37):
your Herman? If you're curiousabout that, you can find out
more atwww.thesilentwhy.com/herman
let's get started. Here's Kensharing a glimpse into his life
today.
My name is Ken Anderson. I am arecently retired police officer.
I was in the police for almost20 years in a variety of
different roles, ranging from aresponse officer to firearms.

(03:01):
Spent five years in firearmspolicing, which was pretty cool,
and then I moved into thetraining department, and an
average week for me, it's a bitvaried at the moment because
I've started my own businessdelivering communication and
well being workshops. So it'svery much juggling childcare and

(03:24):
home life, the housework and allthis stuff, because I'm
effectively the state ownedparent now, but also trying to
get a business up and runningand doing what it needs to do.
And that's a business calledPhoenix Rises, which speaks
volumes, isn't it? Clearly,we'll come on to that. I'm sure,
in the next half an hour or so,loads to talk to you about the

(03:44):
policing in particular. Clearly,the reason we're talking to you
is because of the painful end tothat and what's happened since
then. But before we get on tothat, 20 years in the police,
there must have been just somuch good as well in that time
to keep you in the force forthat long. So give us a bit of
an idea as to what being aserving officer, what was your
experience as you look back onthe good times, the better times

(04:04):
within the policeSo much of it was fantastic, the
people that you work with. Iremember when I joined I was
2122 years old, so I was still akid, you know, I'd finished my A
levels. I was meant to go touniversity, but took a gap year
instead, which kind of gotextended, and by the time I'd
finished my gap year, I thought,You know what? I want to be a
police officer. That's what Iwant to do. So joined the

(04:25):
police, and I loved it. I'd haveworked for free every day if I
could. I come from quite a smallcommunity. We call it a town,
but people that come in and seeit call it a big village, and
seeing the different sides oflife was just so eye opening for
me as a youngster, you know,working in places like Leeds

(04:47):
City Center and Bradford, allthese West Yorkshire posts, I
loved it, and I loved helpingpeople, and every day I felt
like I was making a difference.
I was either protectingvulnerable victims, or I was
turning up at a job and you'd bearresting a burglar that's

(05:09):
caught in a house. And theadrenaline was just great. The
camaraderie amongst your peerswas just phenomenal. They call
it the policing family, and itgenuinely did feel like a
family. When I first started,everybody had bought into the
same culture and ethos.
Everybody wanted to make adifference. Everybody wanted to
do the 30 years in policing andthen retire. And there was just

(05:33):
such scope for you could movesideways into different
departments. You could getpromoted. It police chases. I
loved it. I was a bit of anadrenaline junkie with some of
the stuff, you know, but drivingdown motorways with blue lights
on and chasing all these stolencars. I was first on the scene
when Jimmy Savile died. That wasquite a weird one dealing with

(05:56):
that situation there, before ithad all come out, what he'd been
responsible for, but seeing his,the memorabilia and things like
that that was in the house, itwas just unreal.
Again, thinking straight off atthat point. You know, when you
go to like icebreaker sessionsand conferences and things, and
you have to write down a factabout yourself and then try and

(06:17):
match it with somebody in theroom, you must, you must have,
you must have so many factsabout you that would just make
people stop and think, Oh, myword. I've got to find somebody
in this room, that was the firston the scene when notorious
Jimmy Savile died.
I know well, the thing was whenit first happened, and there
were the rumors and themutterings about what he'd done,
but he was, he was given a,basically a state funeral, in

(06:38):
effect, wasn't he was a nationaltreasure at the time or viewed
as that. And so it was a storythat you could tell and talk
about. And then when it all cameout, what happened? I stopped
telling it for years. I didn't,I didn't want to be associated
with that man in any way, shapeor form.
So for somebody outside of thiscountry, I mean, they might not
be aware that police officersdon't generally carry guns. You

(07:02):
spent five years, so a quarterof your two decades in the
police as a Firearms Officer. Sowhat was the step like, from not
having a gun to suddenly, nowyou've got uniform and gun and
you're back out on the streets?
What was that like?
It was exceptionally hard andexceptionally tough, but I'd
been in what's called responsepolicing, so that's driving
around to your 999, calls,domestics, burglaries, fights,

(07:25):
that kind of thing. I've donethat for about 10 years, and it
wasn't that it becamemonotonous. It was just that
there was no challenge to itanymore. You'd seen pretty much
everything that there was tosee. You'd I'd dealt with
everything from petty thefts tomurders, whatever it was, and
there was no challenge for meanymore in going to the jobs.
And I wanted to challengemyself. I wanted to better

(07:47):
myself. So I thought, what'swhat's the hardest, toughest job
to get into in policing? Andthen Firearms Officer popped up
on the internet, and I was, oh,yeah, oh, I'll try my hand at
that, see how it goes. And thefurther along each stage I got,
and I kept getting through, themore it became, Oh, hold on. I
might actually be good enoughfor this. I might actually have

(08:08):
what it takes. And there wasstage after stage of interviews
and applications and vettingprocesses. There were days when
you had to go and do differentscenarios, or you'd have to go
and shoot guns on a range, neverhaving shot a gun before him
alive. And then there was athree month intensive course.

(08:29):
The course itself, I can'tremember the exact figures. It
was something like a 50% failurerate on it, because they wanted
the best of the best. Theywanted people who were
physically and mentallyresilient enough to go into
positions that nobody elsewanted to and stay calm,
focused, controlled, and dealwith really safety critical high

(08:54):
level incidents. And as itturned out, I got through it
all. I just kept passing eachstage, everything that was asked
of me, I was able to do, and Iloved it. And then coming to
Firearms Officer, it was surrealto think that I'd been entrusted
with these weapons that wereillegal to 99.9% of the UK

(09:16):
population, and I'm walkingaround Astor picking up my lunch
during a shift with a Glock onmy leg and 15 rounds of
ammunition in it, or I'mpatrolling Leeds City Center and
having to walk through ashopping mall with my long arm
carbine now, which is basicallylike a big rifle. And I'm

(09:37):
thinking the levels of trust andresponsibility that had been
empowered on me and the pridethat I had for it was just
amazing. Even now, just thesmile on my face when I think
about how much I challengedmyself and how much I'd worked
to get into the position that Ihad real pride in, it was just
really special time for me.

(09:58):
When we talked to people aboutif they've lost somebody,
there's a death, then you speakto them to begin with, and you
can see how much they loved thatperson. So you can see what the
grief is going to be like. And Ifeel like it'd be like that with
you. You can feel and see thelove that you've had for this
career. But because of thepodcast you're on, we know that
there's going to be a griefcoming, and I can already feel a
little bit of how much that musthave hit you when it had to end.

(10:19):
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat happened towards the end of
that career.
Towards the end of it, I was ina armored police response
vehicle, and we were sent to ajob that involved a stolen
vehicle and some pretty nastygentlemen inside it. And as we
were driving towards it, thevehicle clocked us, made its way
towards us, and we were involvedin a head on collision. It was

(10:40):
about, I'd say, a 70 mile anhour. Head on, we were doing
about 20 miles an hour. Theywere doing about 50. And as a
result, I seriously injured myback. And because of that back
injury, I wasn't able to performmy duties as a police officer
while I was recuperating. So Ihad to take a prolonged period
of sick leave whilst I wastrying to recover. Ultimately,

(11:02):
what happened was I'd herniateda disc in my back, and if
anybody has ever experiencedthat before, it is excruciating.
It is absolutely crippling andsuch a debilitating injury to
how and while I was off work, Ihad my daughter, my partner and
I had a first child, and Istarted to feel little inklings

(11:26):
of things creeping in, where Iwanted to pick her up and put
her down in the cot, but Iwasn't able to bend over
properly because of my back, andI was getting quite limited with
certain things, and the distanceFrom my my direct line managers
seem to increase where I wasn'tbeing checked in on I felt like

(11:46):
people thought I was swingingthe lead and just taking his
time off because I'd had a kid,and he's basically extended
paternity leave. And so Ieventually returned to work, and
I started on what's calledrestricted duties, so you
gradually just ease back in withthe intention of going back onto
firearms. And one day, I wasjust told, out of nowhere,

(12:08):
you're moving to an office.
Well, I had no say in it. I hadno choice in it. And all of a
sudden, my firearms career justseemed to be disintegrating in
front of me. You know, I've beentold to move somewhere else,
which means I'm going to befurther away from doing my
training and getting back intothe front line and all this. And
I was moved into a small, littleoffice. COVID hit. It then

(12:29):
became what's effectively aCOVID hub. So I was taking
sickness reports from policeofficers and giving them advice
on whether they had to selfisolate after coming into
contact with different people,to have gone from vasca by your
arms, working really hard, tothen becoming a with no
disrespect, almost like adoctor's surgery receptionist

(12:52):
really started to play my mentalhealth, and I've always been
quite positive. So I thought,You know what, I'm gonna still
make something of my policecareer. I've always wanted to go
into training, but I neverthought I'd do that until later
on in my career, once I'dstarted to wind down a bit
physically, training would be agood role to go into. But as it

(13:14):
was, I applied for a train aswell. Got in there early and
started to find my mojo again,in some ways. And I was good at
what I did as a trainer. I waspassionate. I was experienced.
New recruits were coming in, andthey'd listen to me because they
knew that I'd been there and I'dlived it, and I'd experienced

(13:37):
all these things in policing,and I had a lot of a lot to
teach them, and a lot that theycould learn from me. But inside,
I was breaking every day. I washiding it, and although outside,
on the outside, I was excellingand doing really well at my job
and getting lots of recognitionfor what I was doing, on the

(13:58):
inside, I was falling apart. Ithen had my second child, and
again, I still had my backinjury. I was still recuperating
from dad. There was very littlehelp in regards to it, because
everywhere you turn, it's just,well, it's a back injury. You
know, it could take a week, itcould take a year, we don't
know. And my whole policingcareer just seemed to be

(14:21):
slipping through my hands likesand. And the more I tried to
hold on to it, the more the sandseemed to slip through my
fingers. I keep on trying to putmy other hand underneath and
catch that sand and pass it backin from pound to but the more
you do that, the less sand thereis getting passed. And it really
started to knock me for six andmy mental health took a beating,

(14:42):
but I hadn't realized I'd cometo work on a Monday, put my
lunch in the fridge. On aFriday, I'd take it home and
throw it in the bin. I washiding in an office or hiding in
the toilet during my lunch breakbecause I didn't want to speak
to people. But then I'd go inthe classroom and I'd be

(15:03):
passionate and I'd be funny, andI'd be engaging with the
students, and I'd be motivatingthem and reassuring them and
listening to their problems andbeing empathetic and doing
everything that was required ofme as a trainer. But then as
soon as that classroom doorshut. I was in bits, and I hid
it so well. Nobody had a clue,nobody had an idea, and

(15:26):
eventually they my sergeantsaid, you're not quite yourself.
Have a have a couple of daysoff. Take the rest of the week
off. And I did, and taken theweek off turned into two weeks,
turned into a month, turned intotwo months, and my mental health
spiralled so quickly, so deeplythat in July of last Year, I

(15:50):
attempted to take my own life. Iremember it vividly, certain
elements of it, some parts arejust a blur or are blocked out.
But as a result of that, alongwith my physical injury, that

(16:16):
was what I now refer to as myphoenix rising moment. That was
a moment when my life restarted.
It almost reset, and I startedto work towards getting to where

(16:36):
I am now, which is by no meansthe finished article, and I
don't think over will be butit's a better path than I was on
before.
Thank you for sharing that. Itreminds me of one of our very
first, one of our early podcastepisodes with Dan Richards. He
used a phrase that we've heard afew times about you know,

(16:57):
relates to one of the bestthings about hitting rock bottom
is that gives you the most solidfoundation to then build on, or
to rebuild on, to rise from thatmoment and then, you know,
remembering what you were sayingwhen you had that massive smile
on your face about the policeand the family feel and the
camaraderie and just how tightthat was, which I guess, was
even further elevated when youbecame a Firearms Officer. There

(17:19):
was just even even more focusedcamaraderie and team spirit to
then suddenly feel like you'reat work, but feeling so alone
and hiding stuff and it justfeels like it's you against the
world, is a stark difference.
Were you aware when you were,you know, leading training
sessions within behind thescenes feeling very different.

(17:39):
Were you aware then of I've gotproblems, or is it only now,
really on reflection, that youcan recognize that, you know, I
was not in a good place?
I think that one of the skillsthat I learned as a police
officer, no, in fact, not justas police officers, as a man, as
a bloke, was compartmentalizingemotions and feelings and being

(18:02):
able to bury things down a lot,and so I might have had these
negative thoughts or feelings,but because there was no one to
talk to, or I didn't feel like Icould talk to anyone, then it
was my problem to solve, and theeasiest way for me to Solve that
problem was to try and forgetabout it. The easiest way for me

(18:24):
to deal with a tragic thing thatI see at work is to try and
forget about it, to try and putit to bed. And often, as a
police officer, you're not you'dactually have the chance to
process things. You know, oneminute you are dealing with
giving CPR to someone, and theydon't make it the next you're
being sent to a job where you'rehaving to console an old person

(18:45):
who's been burgled. Then you'regoing to a pub to break up a
fight there. So your emotionsare up and down, up and down,
and the amount of calls that yougo to in a shift, 1015, 20
different calls, quite easily,your emotions are up and down.
So you you do learn very quicklyhow to compartmentalize these
aspects of emotions that you seeand have to deal with. And so

(19:06):
that's one of the things that Idid, and I became quite good at,
was just switching off from it.
And it was so detrimental. Itwas the worst thing I could have
done, because if I had feltempowered enough to speak to
someone, and I don't mean goingand speaking to a doctor or
anything like that. Let's go wayback before that, just speaking
to someone at work and going,you know what? I'm having a

(19:29):
really crap day. I've got thisgoing on. Can we have a brew?
But you don't, because you don'twant to put your burdens onto
anyone else you train to takepeople's bends away from them,
to protect other people, to lookafter other people, to protect
the vulnerable. You You don'tshow your own vulnerability. And
that's not just police officers.

(19:51):
I think that's men in general,have of a protective nature
about them and showing any kindof vulnerability, they feel
often that it's a sign ofweakness and that they cannot be
as strong for their family asthey need to be, or as strong
for their French or whoever itis as they need to be. And I

(20:15):
think breaking that stigma is abig battle. Looking back, I saw
all the signs, literally, if youif you look at people with
depression or anxiety, and yousee online, oh, here's 10 things
to look out for. Oh, yeah, Inailed 12 of them. 12 of those
10 things. I was smashing themout the back. You know, probably

(20:36):
made up a few of my own alongthe way as well. But it wouldn't
have mattered. Somebody wouldhave said something and I'd have
downplayed it. No, I'm fine. I'mall right. It's just one of
those days. You know how it is,and you bat it off, you don't
,there's no honesty. There's noopenness and transparency there.

(20:58):
When it comes to emotion likethat.
Do you think it's harder in acareer like this, then, because
you guys, the police are look tofor to hold themselves together.
You don't go to a policeman ifyou're in a really bad place and
expect them to start crying orbreaking down. You know you we
you have to be strong. It's theexpectation that you will deal

(21:18):
with the knife crime, the guncry, whatever's going on, the
big, scary situations that thegeneral public don't want to be
in or face. So you're trainedfor that, and very intense
situations as well, let alonefacing. You know, everything the
worst that humans do to eachother. In my head, I'm thinking,
How do you do that as a job? Butthen deal with your emotions
effectively when it comes tobeing at home and letting

(21:39):
yourself go and letting yourselffeel things, because you've
probably got a family at homethat are also looking for you to
be strong at times like we allhave. Do you think the training
in this kind of job makes itharder to do that? Or is would
that be unfair?
No, I think the training and notjust for the police. Let's look
at all emergency services. Let'slook at the military, let's

(22:00):
doctors. You know, all of thetraining is around providing a
good service to everybody else.
There is very little training.
It's almost cursory, if anythingabout providing a good service
to yourself and how to lookafter yourself. There will be
tokenistic things. You might geta screen saver pop up saying, We

(22:20):
really value well being andspeak to occupational health.
But you could be on the first ofyour late shifts, and so you've
got two late shifts, two nightshifts, four days off. You then
come into your two earlys on aweekend. You then back onto your
late you know, when are youmeant to be able to contact
occupational health on a Mondayto Friday night until five,

(22:41):
eight till four, in fact, whenyour shift pattern dictates that
you will not cross paths withthem for two weeks. So if you
have a problem, you've got towait two weeks just to make a
phone call. I'm pretty sure youburied it by that point, and
you've moved on because you'vehad another problem to deal with
or another one. So the trainingis brilliant in regards to

(23:02):
protecting members of thepublic, giving a good service to
members of the public. So likeyou said, not crying in front of
members of the public and allthat. But
I think the training in a lot ofthese emergency services,
frontline type roles, militaryis very lacking when it comes to
looking at genuinely lookingafter yourselves. So now, having

(23:27):
come out of the police force,that chapter is now over. How
much does that feel like a loss,like I've lost my career? How do
you summarize the sort ofacknowledging the grief of
losing that part of me, thatidentity, that role, that
occupation, I refer to it asgrief, quite a lot that I'm

(23:48):
grieving for, not necessarilythe loss of career, but the loss
of me, because I joined when Iwas 21 and I spent 20 years of
my adult life, effectively allof my adult life as a police
officer, and then it was takenaway from me, not by me, not by

(24:10):
me having done anything wrong,or me having made a conscious
decision to have left so I'vehad who I've become, Ken the
policeman. Ken the copper.
That's who I've been for 20years as an adult, my
friendships inside and outsideof work have formed around it.
My family have viewed me asthat. My kids grew up talking

(24:31):
about me like that, and eventhough I've now left I still
haven't been able to tell mychildren that I no longer a
police officer. We drive past apolice station and they say, Are
they your friends or where?
Where are your friends going?
And, oh, look, is that a policecar like yours? I still haven't

(24:51):
been able to do that myself, sothe grief and loss that I have
is for you. Not just the career,because a job is a job, but this
was this was so much more. Thiswas a lifestyle. You could be an
accountant and go from oneaccountancy firm to another, to
another to another, over 20years. And in policing, you're a
police officer, and you're apolice officer when you're off

(25:14):
duty and you're going down thesupermarket and you see a
shoplifter, or you see some, acouple having an argument. What?
What would the public expect youto do when you are there? How
would it look if you didn't stepin and a woman was seriously
assaulted, and then it came outin the press, there was actually

(25:36):
a police officer there watchingit all. It wouldn't be that
there was a police officer therewho was with his two young
children and his partner, anddidn't have a radio, didn't have
anything else, wasn't able toget involved. That wouldn't
matter. So you go from it beingconsuming your life to all of a
sudden nothing, and it it's verysimilar to losing a loved one

(25:58):
who is always there, alwaysaround, and then all of a
sudden, not. And it doesn'tmatter how much time you've got
to prepare for that loss, itstill hurts just the same. And
it's the the why? Why? Me? Whydoes it happen? The same
question that everybody askswhen it comes to why that

(26:21):
person? Why? So stupid? So yeah,it's the big part for me, is
losing what I would call myidentity, almost it's hard.
You mentioned the why questionsthere. It's something we ask all
our guests. Is what theirrelationship has been like with
the question why? Because quiteoften. It changes over time, and

(26:42):
depending on you know what'swhat's going on in life. Is that
something that, obviously you'vehad those questions, are they
still things that sort of youask or that haunt you? Why me?
Yeah, more so to do with mydepression, as to why? Why have
I got this? Why am I not strongenough to not feel this way? Why

(27:04):
am I unable to move on from it?
And probably the big one for meis, why can't I solve this Why
can't I go to an Erra ofdifferent incidents as a police
officer and solve other people'sproblems, day in day out for 20
years. Why can I come home andsolve issues at home? The light

(27:25):
bulb's gone fine. I'll fix it.
We've run out of this fine. I'llgo out and buy it. Solve all
these problems, but I can'tsolve my own. And that feeling
of uselessness that I have as aresult, is powerful. People talk

(27:48):
about love being a reallypowerful emotion and feeling,
and it is, you know, it's but Ifeel like negative emotions and
feelings are more powerful a lotof the time, and it it's awful
to say, but when I was standingon the edge of the cliff wanting

(28:12):
to jump and I was at peace withwhat I was about to do, my love
for my children, my love for mypartner, My love for my family,
my love for my friends, wascompletely and utterly consumed
and overpowered by my hatred ofself. And that's a hell of a

(28:34):
lot. I would die for mychildren. You know, if something
was happening, I would step in.
I'd die for them. I'd take abullet. Man, that is a strong,
powerful love, isn't it that youwould die for somebody else, but
to have a deeper hatred, thatyou could kill yourself rather
than live for love? That's atough thing to fight and work

(28:55):
through.
Considering everything that hasled up to where we are now, and
the end of of that police careerwas all as a result of things
external to you, so,circumstances, systems, criminal
activity, injury. Why do youthink that became, actually,

(29:17):
then something that thatdarkness became about yourself
so sort of like a hatred of selfwhen you're not to blame for
what has happened to you. Why doyou think that's something that
has been turned, or was turnedinto a hatred for self?
I think that there's severalfactors involved. I think that
some of it will stem from theway I have grown up, the way

(29:38):
I've lived my life up until thatpoint has helped make me who I
am in regards to how I viewmyself in certain situations and
how much I want to help otherpeople. And it's simple things
such as the eldest of three, twoyounger brothers, and as the
oldest, you always get told,right, look after your little

(29:59):
brother. Look after of them benice to them. So things like
that, as I'm growing up helpedme become a police officer,
because it becomes natural foryou to help those that need
help. So you tend to find thatyou do fall into those kind of
role. But for me to have thoseoverpowering thoughts, part of
it, I think, is the way thatdepression can work, the

(30:23):
synapses that get triggered inyour brain and the chemical, the
lack of certain chemicals inyour brain have an impact. So
some of it is naturally going tohappen to me, regardless of
anything. I think that a bit ofthe trauma of what I
experienced, but for me, the bigone is probably the not having

(30:45):
the why I can't blame a stolencar for me being there because
my colleague was in the car andthey're okay. I can't but I'm
not. Why me? Why am I different?
Why am I not good enough torecover to the same level that
they have recovered to or why amI not strong enough to be able
to face these demons and yet onsocial media or whatever format

(31:06):
you look at, here's when I wasat my lowest, and here's the 10
steps that I took to gettingbetter. Okay, I'll try those,
but they haven't worked. Why?
What? Why am I that broken thatthey don't work for me? Well,
try this medication. Okay, I'lltry, but that, but that's not
working for me. So what? Why isthis medication that works for

(31:29):
all these other people, then notworking for me? And so it
becomes an onslaught ofnegativity, which makes that so
overpowering, the feeling of itmust just be me. I must be the
one at fault, because everythingthat has been suggested or has

(31:50):
not gone wrong for other peoplehas gone wrong for me and my my
depression isn't even anythingto do with me thinking, Oh, woe
is me. What's the next bad thingthat's going to happen. That's
not how my depression works forme. My depression works in a way
that makes me hate myself. Ihate who I am as a core person,
and it became more prevalentsince leaving the police,

(32:12):
because before, when I was inthe police, people would say,
describe yourself well, I'mmotivated, I'm caring. I look
out for other people. I'm a goodcommunity. All these got me and
when I left the police you askedme this question, I felt like
I'd failed at everything. I'dfailed at being a police
officer, I'd failed at being aFirearms Officer, I'd failed at

(32:34):
being a trainer, I'd failed atbeing a parent, failed at being
a partner, failed at being ason, a brother. None of it was
really fact, it was allthoughts. And being able to
differentiate between the two isquite hard sometimes, but that
is what really pushed home a lotof it. So when I talk about how

(32:58):
it's all me, it's it's becauseof the thoughts, not the facts,
around what has pushed me thereone thing.
I'm wondering about, what partanger has played in this, if at
all, because you've got the, youknow, the nasty gentlemen who
are the catalyst of all this,you've got, you know, this
feeling of failure, the hatredof self, this inability to be
able to fix it. You know, youhad a whole career of fixing

(33:19):
other people's problems, and nowyou can't fix yourself. That's
very frustrating, and probablymakes you feel a bit weak when
you've been such a strong personin society. And I know a bit
about what that feels like, andif you're a can do person, it's
debilitating to not be able tosort things out for yourself.
Has that led to anger at anystage?
Yeah, I went through a phase ofhaving real anger towards the

(33:41):
police for the way that I wastreated. I didn't have anger
towards the people that hadcrashed the car into mine. It's
what they do. It's what youexpect. They're in a stolen car.
They don't want to be caught.
You're between them and freedom.
What do you expect them to do?
So yeah, I can kind of acceptthat. I can accept the fact that
my body was injured in aparticular way. Okay, we're not

(34:03):
angry about that, but I wasangry about how I was treated.
Angry about the lack ofcommunication. I was angry about
the hypocrisy around we're apolicing family. I'd never have
I say I'd never abandoned myfamily like that, but at the
edge of a cliff, I almost didthat I resented being part of

(34:24):
that family because of where I'dended up and the lack of support
that I'd had along the way. Andin hindsight, it's the processes
that failed more than anythingelse, the lack of things that
were in place to be able toidentify and assist people that

(34:45):
were struggling, which are nowdeeply passionate about
changing, not just in thepolice, but in all walks of
life, because a lot of men willgo through. Do awful, horrendous
things or just bad things, butthey won't talk about it, and it
will eat them up. It will get tothem. And they might not end up

(35:10):
physically on that cliff ledge,but mentally, they will be there
more more times than they'dmaybe admit. And they would
maybe have those thoughts crosstheir mind more often than
they'd care to admit. And ifpeople could talk and just open
up that little bit more, I thinkthat that would drive real

(35:34):
change, because my hatred, asmuch as it was initially at the
police for the broken systems inplace, the overarching hatred
that I have was for myself, andthat was because of my mindset.
I think we're all sort of withyou now. We can see everything

(35:56):
you've been carrying and workingthrough, and so this took you to
the edge of this cliff. What wedon't really know yet is What
stopped you and what brought youback from the edge. So talk us
through a little bit about thenext stage and how you kind of
pulled yourself back from beingin that place.
I didn't, funnily enough, thenight before, I'd written

(36:17):
letters to both of my childrenand my partner. I didn't sleep
that night, got up in themorning, got the kids dressed,
took them to nursery, them toschool, and then set off driving
to the coast. All the way I wasthinking, I know what I'm going
to do when I get there. Stop.
Put your foot on the brake. Comeon, Ken, don't be an idiot. You

(36:37):
know what's going to happen.
Turn around put you but I I'venever experienced autopilot,
absolute autopilot. My body wasnot listening to my head at all.
They were so disconnected fromeach other, it was unreal. And I
get to the cliffs, and I'm atthis viewing point, and really

(37:02):
weirdly, it was a viewing pointthat you had to pay to go to.
And so I'm walking from my caracross this car park, thinking
I'm gonna have to pay four orfive quid here to go and jump
off this click. What's all thatabout? That seems madness. The
weird thing was that I was socalm about it at the time, and

(37:24):
bizarrely, the card chip and pinthing didn't work. So he just
goes, Oh, just go through andcome pay later. And I remember
thinking, well, that's not goingto happen, because I'm not
coming back this way. And I musthave been on the cliff two,
three hours, maybe at a guess,just crying, uncontrollably,

(37:46):
sobbing, and then calm,something just stopped. And it
was like the clouds suddenlystarted having rays of sunshine
break through them. The birdswere just a bit slower as they
were flying through the air. Thewaves weren't crashing. They

(38:07):
were just almost always kissingand stroking the shoreline. It
everything just became calm, andI felt from the top of my head
all the way down to my bottom,this wave of peace. And I felt

(38:30):
that peace was what I was goingto do. There was no regret,
there was no fear, there was nothought about anything, but I
was peaceful, and for the firsttime in a long time, I felt easy

(38:51):
about what I was going to do,until I started to climb over
the railing, at which point,unbeknownst to me, there was A
woman behind me, a little oldlady, who just said, are you
okay? And my first thought was,I can't do this in front of her.
And so I stepped back down, andthat was, that was the moment.

(39:15):
It wasn't me, it wasn't anythingelse. It was three words from
the complete stranger, and Iwish that I knew who she was. I
wish that I could see her nowand go, I'm still a bit broken,
but you probably don't knowthis, but thank you, because all
you said was, are you okay? Andit sounds almost made up. It

(39:37):
sounds like, oh, well, that's abrilliant story and a tagline to
put on something, but it is 100%Gospel true. And from that
point, people got involved.
Police were called blah, blah,blah, and that prevented
anything further from happening.
But it wasn't me. I was ready, Iwas going, and it was somebody

(39:57):
else just checked in.
At the right time. Wow, that'san important message, isn't it?
Checking in with people.
I wish people would do it beforethey get to the cliff face, and
that's why I'm really passionateabout it. Now. What I'm trying
to do now is to get people tocommunicate more. I'm not a fan

(40:18):
of the term well being I'll behonest I'm a massive advocate
for it, but there is somethingabout me as a bloke that just
finds Well being a little bitwoke, a little bit feminine,
because it normally carriesconnotations such as self love

(40:43):
and well being and all this kindof stuff. And a lot of guys who
were in a workplace environment,if somebody comes in and says,
We've got so and so coming in togive you a well being talk,
they're gonna switch off andthink, Oh, really, where's the
incense. Where's this? For me,I'm passionate about

(41:03):
communication. It's what I spent20 years dealing with, going
into a job, going into a house,not knowing what was behind the
door, but having to convince oneof those people that the best
thing that they could do was tobe arrested. I mean, how do you
do that? Not to communicate? Andcommunication sounds like
problem solving. It sounds likeright? I'm going to listen to

(41:27):
what your problem is, and I'mgoing to help come up with a
resolution that in itself, feelsa bit more masculine. And so if
you're trying to get people totalk, mainly men to talk, and
open up more, I'm not sure thatwell being is necessarily the
best terminology to be using.
But maybe if people start orself help and all this sort
maybe if people startedthinking, right, I'm going to

(41:50):
communicate more. And so I'mtrying to get into the people's
minds, right? Let's communicateabout things. Let's communicate
about problems. Let'scommunicate about issues. Active
listening, bring all theseskills in from policing. You
find that just people venting alittle bit. I find it really
cathartic doing what I do,because I'm talking about what's
happened every single day, andfeel quite strange about it

(42:14):
sometimes, because I'm like, DoI really have to keep talking
about it, but I do, because howcan I break down stigmas and
barriers to communication andempower other people to be able
to talk about it if I'm notdoing it myself, and I'm a six
foot two, bearded ex firearmsofficer who's saying talk so

(42:34):
many people wait until it's toolate and go. I wish they'd have
just spoken to me. Well, theonus shouldn't be on them to
speak to you. Communicationworks both ways. Why don't you
communicate with them? Why don'tyou speak to them? And I think
that that can make a realdifference, because I didn't
respond to this woman when sheasked, Are you okay? I'd She

(42:56):
probably thought I was the mostignorant person in the world,
because I just stared forwards.
I might have shaken my head, Ithink, but that was it. But how
powerful were those three wordsat that right time? And imagine
if you then had the power to saysomething to someone else that

(43:18):
could just ease a burden alittle bit, take a little bit of
that weight off. What a changeyou could make in the world. And
it's not a preachy thing. It's agenuine thing. How often, how
much better do you feel whenyou've had a right rant, when
your football team's lost, oryour partner's an idea, or
whatever, and you just blow offsome steam? It It feels great.

(43:41):
Women are generally quite goodat it. Now if Claire, if you
have an argument with Chris,right? You're gonna, you're
gonna go up to your mates, yourgirly mates, and you're gonna
go, you'll never guess whatChris dis, they'll will be, what
did he say? What did you say?
What happened next? And you willbe spilling it until there's no
more details left.
It doesn't happen, though, doesit?

(44:02):
No, no.
Hypothetically speaking, if thathappened, yeah,
Chris, if you were to go up toyour mail mates and say, Oh,
you'll never guess what Clairedid last night, nine times out
of 10, they will turn around andgo, right, Chris, what you want
to do is, bang, bang, bang. Menwant to problem solve. So how
does that then make you feelabout, oh, well, yeah, maybe it

(44:24):
isn't a big deal. Maybe I couldhave just sorted that myself. If
my friends could fix it. Whycan't I fix it? And straight
away, you shut down. And so nexttime you have a problem, you're
not going to speak teammates,because you're going to think,
well, they're just going to tellme how to fix it, and so you
lose those barriers tocommunication, whereas Claire,
you'll be able to go, guess whathe's done this week, and off you

(44:47):
go, because you know that peopleare listening and people are
communicating with you.
Yeah, we are better at it. I'dreally think that you're in a
very key position with with yourhistory, with what you learned
in the police, but also beingwho you are as a male, I think
that is really, really valuable,especially for people coming out
of these careers. I'm not sayingthat you need to specialize in
that, but we've spoken to threepeople that have come out of the

(45:08):
military because of medicalissues or problems or being
injured in combat, and all threeof them have got stories of
attempting to take their life orgetting very close to it. And
obviously there's a disconnectsomewhere between these careers,
and they'd all say the samething, real family feel when
they're in it. Loved theircareers, such a loss to come out
of it. But there's, there's anissue there, when they do come

(45:28):
out of it, having to then dealwith the next step and how
they're actually feeling and thebreakdown in mental health. And
you're in a great position to dothat, because a lot of these
careers, especially if they'remen like you said, they're not
going to necessarily want thethe loving kind of come here.
Let's chat about well being, dosome yoga kind of stuff, which
is great for some people, but wehave to admit, that's not going
to fit everybody, and there's noreason why it should. So I think

(45:49):
what you've got is a very uniquea very key product that's
needed.
Yeah, and for me, there's no onefix. What works for me on a
Monday won't necessarily workfor me on a Tuesday, so I need
to draw on something else, andI've got a toolbox now of
different things that I can tryand use at different times to
help me, but I'm still lackingcertain tools in certain

(46:12):
environments, so I'm I'm stillgrowing and learning and trying
to improve on that, but so Iseveryone, and you're never too
clever to stop learning thingslike just taking those first
steps into talking. I just thinkare massive things like Andy's
Man Club, for me has been such abig help in my process, because

(46:34):
even if I wasn't talking, I waslistening.
Jjust tell us about Andy's,what. is that in a nutshell?
Oh, Andy's Man Club isfantastic. It is basically a
men's support group to deal withnot just suicide, it's largely
to do with suicide, but men whoare struggling. And the first
time I went, if you've ever seenthe film Fight Club, you know

(46:57):
there's that scene where EdwardNorton meets meatloaf for the
first time, and he's crying intohim, and he ends up with tear
marks on his T shirt in theshape of face. I thought it was
going to be like that, but it'snot. It's just a load of blokes
from all walks of life thatbasically talk one at a time
about what's getting under theskin that wake what's been good

(47:18):
that week, a couple of randomquestions about what their
favorite sandwich is or whateverto lighten the mood, and it just
enables discussion. It breaksdown some barriers, and that, in
itself, has helped me in certainareas, but it's also empowered
me to be able to take it thatbit further and start doing what
I'm doing now, which is reallypromoting targeted

(47:42):
communication.
So as the Phoenix rises, how areyou feeling about yourself? Now,
you know, at the lowest pointwe've talked about the self
hate, how are you doing withyourself?
I'm still up and down. I'm notgoing to lie and pretend that
I'm not. I'm not at the samelevel of being at the cliff face

(48:08):
that I was, but I'd be lying ifI said that every day wasn't a
battle, in some sense,particularly when it comes to
having self worth about myselfor feeling good enough for my
family and my children. So theway that I describe it is almost
like you can be an alcoholic,but not have you haven't had a

(48:31):
drink for 20 years, but you'restill an alcoholic. For me, I'm
still depressed, even though Ihaven't attempted to do anything
for 18 months, or whatever itis, and I think that I'm owning
it a lot more now I'm facing upto the fact that it is a part of
me. At the moment, it might bethat in six months a year, I'm

(48:55):
100% better, and it's a distantmemory, but at the moment, I'm,
I don't know, a functioningdepressive. Is that what you
call me? I deal with things on adaily basis, and I have my
battles, but I am in a muchbetter place than I was, and I'm
a lot more confident aboutgetting to where I need to be,

(49:19):
because I found a bit of passionagain, and that's helping other
people, and so I cancompartmentalize some of the
things that I'm doing to acertain degree, because I'm
actively going out and helpingother people, and I get that
same sense of worth and purposethat I had from being a police
officer, of going out andhelping people, but doing it in

(49:42):
a much more cathartic way. I'mmanaging my own time if, if
LinkedIn starts to really bug meand I've got too much going on,
I'll take the dog for a walk.
Was in a full time job. I wasn'table to do that. I wasn't able
to have those moments ofwellness or well being, whatever
you want to call it. So, yeah,it's I'm a work in progress.
Definitely, I'm not going topreach that I'm fixed, and this

(50:05):
is how I've done it. I thinkthat's a lie. And I think a lot
of people that say that they'rethey're selling things that
there shouldn't really be. Thereis no quick fix, there is no 10
step program. The only thingthat you will ever see
consistently, because any kindof dealing with grief, dealing
with trauma, dealing withdepression or anxiety, is talk

(50:27):
talk about it, journal it, talkabout it, wherever it is. That's
the one consistent thing.
Just to touch on hope, becausewe use this podcast to explore,
you know, where and how and whenhope can exist in 101 different
types of permanent loss. What'syour experience been like of
searching for hope orrediscovering hope, to invest in

(50:51):
what you're doing now, to putyour time, your effort, your
energy, into being that bigbrother, helping other people,
encouraging other people totalk, communicate. What's that
been like with your relationshipwith hope?
My hope has manifested itself alot in the way that I am with my
children, more than anything. Ihope that they never feel like

(51:11):
they can't talk about thefeelings and emotions. I hope
that they always have the self,self worth that I don't
necessarily have, and I'vestarted doing weird things,
rather than like a at the end ofthe bedtime story, just saying,
Good night, I get them to repeatback a little passage. This
probably sounds quite daft, butI've got a two year old and a

(51:33):
four year old that each nightwill say, 'Day is over, night
has come. Today is gone. What'sdone is done. Face your dreams
through the night. Tomorrowcomes with a whole new light. I
am braver than I believe. I amstronger than I seem, and I'm
smarter than I think.' And attwo and four, I've got them
saying that, and I'm trying toinstill that in them, that it's

(51:55):
not just a tokenistic word thingthat they happen to say, that as
they get older, they're going toreally understand it and believe
it, because I think that that isimportant. The hope from all of
this for me is that it's notgoing to be a cycle that repeats
itself with my children, that Ican break that cycle for them
and for other people.

(52:17):
Looking back at the person youwere, sort of, I don't know
which stage it would be, but atthe stage when maybe you started
to need some help, when someonecould have helped, if they'd
have known, or if you'd haveknown, to identify it, is there
anything somebody could havedone at that point? Do you think
there are things that could haveprevented you from from getting
that far and getting to thecliff, if somebody, if there's a
process in place, if somebodyhad said something, I'm thinking

(52:39):
of the other people out therenow that are in that place and
they just don't know what to do.
Yeah, 100% I could have beenstopped at any number of points
along this road from having thatalmost like the snowball effect,
you know, if when I was firstinjured and gone off work, if my
line manager had checked inmore, if my colleagues at work

(53:01):
has checked in more asked how Iwas doing if I didn't feel like
I was the way that I was made tofeel, being almost like a leper
and not part of the team and outof the loop. So yeah, that there
was simple things that can bedone, and it's all down to
communication. It's all down tojust people. Are you okay? How

(53:21):
are you doing? Is there anythingthat we can do today? What do
you want to do today? There'ssmall little bits of
communication just toprofessionals. Quite often talk
about what's called a stressbucket, and they say that, I
don't know if you've heard thisterm used before, where it's
like a dripping tap filling upthis bucket, and it's not big,

(53:41):
traumatic life events that tookpeople over the edge. It's this
constant dripping thateventually fills up this bucket,
and then it starts overflowing,and that is what causes people
to have bad episodes of stressand anxiety and depression. So
if somebody is able to go, areyou okay that can just release a
little bit of that water to stopit overflowing. One of my best

(54:02):
mates from the place, weprobably haven't spoken to each
other on the phone or sentWhatsApp messages in, I don't
know, six weeks, something likethat. But every day, every
couple of days, we're sendingeach other two or three reels on
Instagram or something likethat, which is just not normally

(54:25):
the ones that are offending eachother, or something like that,
you know, so pointing out howmuch of an idiot is, or
something like that. But that isa form of communication that is
endearment. When he sends methose reels. I know that at that
moment in time, he was thinkingof me, and likewise, when I send

(54:46):
him some, he knows and it's ourlittle way of checking in. And
six weeks ago, a couple of reelswere followed up with the
WhatsApp. How are you doing? Youknow it, it doesn't have to be
big, grand gestures. It doesn'thave to be little things. It
just stopped that bucket fromoverflowing. Once it starts
getting to the top, by allmeans, start looking towards

(55:07):
your Mental Health First Aidersand going to see your GP and all
this on it. But way before that,it's your family, it's your
colleagues, it's your peers,it's your neighbors, it's
anybody that is in your life,just saying, How are you doing?
Because how often you asked,Hey, are you okay? I'm fine. Ask
it twice. You know that that'salways a good one. How are you

(55:28):
doing? I'm fine. How are youreally well now that you're
thinking, and it just givepeople those little
opportunities. And if I'd havehad those little opportunities
along the way to be able tospeak, to be able to vent, to
get stuff off my chest, and itwould have had a difference now,
a shadow of a doubt, it wouldhave had a difference
If somebody's in the place nowwhere they have lost a career
like this early days, andthey're wondering how they're

(55:50):
going to get through this. Isthere one particular thing you'd
want to say to them, having beenthrough it and on the other side
of it, to sort of encouragethem?
Yeah, hold on, no matter how badyou think it is, just hold on.
There's a fantastic book called'The boy, the mole, the fox and
the horse', by Charlie Mackesy.
And it's basically almost like aseries of one page cartoons with

(56:12):
some inspirational quotes on it.
And one of the ones that stoodout for me throughout my dark
times while I was trying to getbetter, was the boy and the
horse were standing in front ofthe Big Woods, and the boy says,
'I can't see a way through'. Andthe horse says, 'Well, can you

(56:33):
see your next step?' Boy says,'Yes'. And the horse goes, 'well
just take that'. And that's allthat you've got to do every day.
It doesn't matter how far, justtake that one step, because at
the end of a week, you'll lookback and you've gone seven steps
that you didn't think that youwould have taken in the first
place. They don't have to bebig. They don't have to be
strides. There could be babysteps. It doesn't matter. It's

(56:53):
all progress, and it's allheading towards the right path.
And it will get better famoussaying that everyone uses this
too shall pass. It will the goodtimes will pass, the bad times
will pass. It will all pass.
Just give it time.
Can I push you on the hold onpoint and say anything

(57:14):
particular that you would say,hold on to, if they'd say, hold
on to what?
I think that that is thequestion that people would have
to answer their selves a lot. Itmight be a family member. It
might be that you've actuallygot tickets to go and see of
your football team that night,and you just want to see them.
Whatever it is, it doesn'tmatter. There will be something,

(57:37):
even if it's just the hope thattomorrow will be better. Hold on
to that, because tomorrow willbe better. Tomorrow never
actually comes, but tomorrowwill be better, and you will get
there. And there's so manypeople out there that will
support you and talk to you andhelp guide you through things.

(57:58):
Speak to me. If anybody wants tospeak to me. Just do it by
whatever means possible. Get incontact with me, and I will
speak to you. I'll give you somesupport, bit of advice, and I'll
listen. It may not seem like it,but there are so many people
that would listen and would bethere for you. You're probably

(58:18):
in a place where you're thinkingthey wouldn't. Well, what's fact
and what's thought? What's thedifference? Fact? Right? The
fact is, they would. They wouldlisten. They would want to be
there. It's those thoughts thatare saying that they don't. So
don't listen to the thoughts.
Listen to the facts.
Yeah, so true. There are so manypeople out there, but you're
right. It's hard to see themsometimes. Just before we ask

(58:39):
the last question, I justwonder, has it changed your view
of the future at all? Do youview the future any differently
because of everything you'vebeen through?
Yeah, I do. I feel a bit morepositive, believe it or not,
about the future. I haveabsolutely no idea how or what
this future is going to hold forme, but there's something there,

(59:01):
and I'm still at those woods,and I'm still looking where to
go, but I'm just taking that,that one step at a time, and
that's my future. My future isjust one step at a time. I look
back 18 months, I was on theedge of a cliff, and now I'm not
I'm here. I'm talking to youguys, trying to make strides in

(59:22):
other areas of my life, it'shard. Don't get me wrong, there
is no quick fix, and there is noone size fits all, and there is
no solution that's going tosuddenly change everything. You
have to work at it. A lot of itwill be going against your
learned behavior, because you'llhave taught yourself to deal
with things in a certain way,which has led up to the point

(59:43):
that you're feeling the way thatyou're feeling. So you've got a
lot to unlearn as well. I do.
I've got 30 odd years of the waythat I've been brought up and
lived experiences and policing.
I've got to unlearn all of that.
Well, it won't take me 30 yearsto unlearn, but it's not going
to take me 30 days either.

(01:00:03):
I'm reminded again and again,just throughout our conversation
of how, how much time, like youwere just touching on the how
much time, certainly with thepolice, is spent on training and
shaping and teaching and leadingyou into different skills,
different ways of coping,resilience, all that you need
for that role, and then nothingyou know, just a sudden end to

(01:00:25):
unlearn that or to put you backinto the world as a not a broken
person, where you're no longerin that role. It's just a sudden
change, and then suddenly it'syou on your own self discovery,
having to find the answers,having to make choices, make
decisions without the support,the family, backup of the
employer.
One sec, sorry, you mentionedthat you're alone. I want to

(01:00:47):
challenge that, because you'renot. You might feel alone, but I
promise you that you're notalone. I promise you that as
unique as you think you are,once you start speaking to
people, you will find out thatyou're not you're unique in some
respects, but in how you'refeeling, that aloneness, that
sadness, whatever it might be,that grief, turmoil, you will

(01:01:09):
not be alone. There'll be somany people that will feel the
same as you, and it's aboutfinding those people, but you're
not going to find them if youdon't speak up, and if you don't
start looking in the rightplaces, if you start doing that
as early as you can in thisprocess of dealing with grief or
trauma or whatever it might be,you will find the support. And
the sooner that you do that, thesooner that weight comes off and

(01:01:33):
you suddenly go, actually, I'mnot alone in my thoughts. I'm
not alone in my head.
Keep going. With the finalquestion, because amen to that,
keep going, what's, what's yourHerman?
This was a really tough one forme. And my Herman is my attempt
at taking my own life that thenevolved into the business that I

(01:01:54):
have started, which is Phoenixrises, because I had to do a lot
of googling about the Hermanthing, and so I looked at your
website, and there were fourmain things that you use to
describe what Herman was. It'ssomething that's nourished,
grown and cultivated, andthrough my personal struggle,
that's what I've done. I'vedeveloped this resilience and

(01:02:17):
this empathy and the deepunderstanding of things. So I've
nourished it. I've grown it, andmy healing has been slowly
cultivated. In some ways, it'ssomething that you can't buy
with money. You can't buy whatI've been through with money
nobody would pay to have gonethrough that and ended up where

(01:02:38):
I was. So my experience, in someways, is quite unique to me, but
it's not unique to others, butit's invaluable, because it
comes from a real place. Itcomes from a genuine place of
wanting to make a difference,not jumping on a bandwagon and
trying to monetize something.
It's a genuine passion forwanting to help people, so you

(01:03:00):
can't go out and buy thatsomething to be shared with
others and given away. Well,that's exactly what I'm doing.
I'm sharing my story, I'msharing my experience, I'm
sharing my knowledge, I'msharing my skills and my life.
Not many people will openlyspill out this much depth of
their life to strangers, but I'mdoing it all the time, so I'm

(01:03:23):
just giving it away andsomething alive and breathing
Phoenix rises. I want that tocontinue, and if I help one
person, they will then take thataway and they will naturally
help somebody else, be it theirpartner, be it their children,
be it their parents or a friend,whoever it is. So it is

(01:03:44):
naturally evolving and growing,just through being paid forward,
through people empoweringthemselves and bettering
themselves. So my Herman is mybusiness Phoenix Rises. I don't
like calling it a business assuch, but it is a real passion

(01:04:04):
project for me that is making adifference.
Never underestimate the power ofwhat you can create out of your
loss. So many incredible causes,charities and support systems

(01:04:26):
start with one person, story ofgrief. We're so grateful to Ken
for his honesty and how he'susing his journey to help
others.
You can learn more about him andhis business at
www.phoenix-rises.co.uk or onLinkedIn. We'll put all the
links in the show notes,including Andy's Man Club, which
Ken referred to in the episode.
And don't forget, you can findus at www.thesilentwhy.com or
follow us on social media@TheSilent WhyPod for regular

(01:04:49):
updates and inspiration.
This is also a good time toremind you about our physical,
Hermans, thoughtful, lovable,crocheted creatures that you can
gift to anyone who's goingthrough a tough time, especially
men, where flowers, candles andchocolates might not quite seem
right if you don't know what tosay, let Herman do the talking.
He comes with a small flyerexplaining why you're sending

(01:05:09):
him to help you out when it'shard to find the right words.
Check outwww.thehermancompany.com, for
all the details.
And as Christmas approaches,Herman makes a perfect gift for
someone who's had a tough yearor just needs to know that
they're not alone. We'll leaveyou with this quote from the
book Ken mentioned The boy, themole, the fox and the horse' by
Charlie Mackersy.
"Sometimes said the horse,sometimes what asked the boy,

(01:05:33):
sometimes just getting up andcarrying on is brave and
magnificent."

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Loss 59/101: Loss of a police career and self-worth: Ken Anderson

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