Matching Communication Styles to Beat Price Wars with Jeff Borovitz

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Price isn’t the villain—unclear communication is. We sit down with Jeff Borovitz of Sandler to explore how a psychology-led sales process helps construction companies stop chasing bad-fit bids, avoid unpaid change orders, and build trust that holds up once shovels hit dirt. Jeff breaks down the biggest trap he sees on both residential and commercial teams—premature presentation—and shows how to slow down, uncover three to five real pains, and turn conversations from “How cheap?” to “How do we make the outcome certain?”

We get tactical. You’ll hear how to spot and adapt to different communication styles so clients feel heard, not handled. We dig into handling discount pressure with questions that reframe value—like asking change order and final-versus-quoted price percentages—so you lead as the expert instead of defending your bid. Jeff also explains why revenue and profit are lagging indicators, and how strong leaders prioritize leading signals: pipeline quality, ICP fit, access to dialogue-based RFPs, and stage conversion rates that predictably move work forward.

The team also talks VUCA—volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity—and the strain it puts on crews, clients, and owners. Jeff’s take: remove fear, doubt, and worry by modeling courage, setting clear expectations, and simplifying operating rhythms. And yes, AI plays a healthy role here. Use it to automate dull admin, improve precon clarity, and even rehearse tough client calls with an AI sales coach so reps show up practiced and calm when it counts.

If you want to protect margin without cutting corners, build a pipeline you actually want to win, and give your field teams cleaner handoffs, this conversation delivers a practical blueprint. Subscribe, share with your team, and leave a review with the one question you want us to roleplay next.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Jeff, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 (00:02):
Great, James.
Thanks a lot for having me on.

SPEAKER_03 (00:04):
Yeah, thanks.
Everyone has trouble with thisstudio door.
It's like a push and it lookslike a pull.

SPEAKER_02 (00:09):
You got to be smarter than the equipment.
And I unfortunately am not.
As I pulled, as I proved bypulling on it like three or four
times.

SPEAKER_03 (00:16):
I I I would I would say that it's probably just from
jet lag, but you're on the sametime zone.
So yeah, that doesn't count.

SPEAKER_02 (00:22):
I don't have that excuse.
I'm just not smarter than thedoor.

SPEAKER_03 (00:25):
Oh, come on.
It is a bit of a faux gazy, thatone, because it does, it does,
yeah.
Everyone does that.
So don't feel uh don't feel thatyou were anewhat uh special in
in regards to the door pull.
I think Paul did the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 (00:39):
Wow, that just proves that Paul and I are
equally not adept at usingequipment.

SPEAKER_03 (00:45):
All right.
So you've come all the way fromSan Francisco.
Yeah.
And uh how would you did youjust get off a flight?
I see you got luggage here.

SPEAKER_02 (00:52):
Yeah, yeah.
We just got off the flight thismorning and uh we're gonna we're
gonna take the seaplane in alittle while over to Victoria.
And uh everybody told me I gotwe gotta go over to Victoria and
stay in the Empress Hotel.
So that's what we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06):
Oh, the Empress?
Yeah, you know it's haunted.
Don't tell me that.
It is.
I stayed there.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13):
And why did you witness this haunting?
Of course not, but it is it isknown to be haunted.
It is no all right.
So we're staying at a hauntedhotel.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23):
It's beautiful, but it is it has stories.
It's very old.
Well it's an old CP hotel.
Like it's really, really old.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
One of the things you can do there is do a ghost
walk, they said at night.

SPEAKER_03 (01:35):
Uh so why were you surprised that I said it's
haunted?

SPEAKER_02 (01:38):
Well, I thought it was I thought I thought it was
like a ghost walk around thetown.
I didn't realize it was just forthe Empress.

SPEAKER_03 (01:45):
Oh.
Well, you're staying in theright place because that's the
bomb.
You'll love it.
All right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:49):
Well, we're doing that.
And so the seaplane, I guess,lands right at the harbor there.
It's across the street.
And so I've never I've neverbeen on a seaplane before.
So this was one of the bucketlist things that I wanted to do
on this trip.

SPEAKER_03 (02:02):
That's interesting.
Um, Paul and I were talkingabout the seaplane because he
took the Heli jet over and hesaid the reason is is because
the seaplanes are so unreliable.
And I said, Well, they used tobe.
But uh where I live, they'relanding right in front of my
window all the time.

SPEAKER_02 (02:21):
It looks really cool.

SPEAKER_03 (02:22):
But they fly all the time in fog and all sorts of
stuff.
So it used to be they couldn'tyou're like your flight was
canceled.
Um, but maybe there's some newuh they're fly by wire so they
don't have to actually see.

SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
Yeah, I don't know.
Uh they they seem to have verylow cancellation rate.
The only thing I've been warnedabout is that when they make the
final approach for landing, itfeels like you're dropping super
fast.

SPEAKER_03 (02:45):
It does.
Yeah, the nose looks like you'regoing to crash into the water.

SPEAKER_02 (02:48):
Yeah, so everybody, I'm afraid of heights.
So everybody that's nose I'mdoing this has told me just
don't wig out when they it's abit sketchy.

SPEAKER_03 (02:56):
Yeah.
But it used to be with thesmaller planes, but uh, I'm sure
you get with it.
Anyway, I'm looking forward tochatting with you about Sandler
and coaching and constructionand all the things that you're
doing.
So, yeah, let's get to it.
Let's do it.
Welcome to the construction.

(04:11):
All right, Jeff.
So you said borovits.
I gotta I gotta put the V inthere.

SPEAKER_02 (04:16):
Yeah, yeah, we gotta put the V in.
What's the origin of Borovitz?
So it's uh it's really funny.
I just went through this wholefamily tree thing.
Did you send your DNA in that?
I've done that, but that didn'thelp as much.
Is I was in uh I was in SaltLake City.
Yeah, and uh the Mormon Churchhas this family research center.
Yeah, and you can go do this,it's free, which is right in the

(04:38):
sweet spot of my affordabilityrange.

SPEAKER_03 (04:40):
Is that if you're Mormon?
It's free.
No.
Okay, just check.

SPEAKER_02 (04:43):
No, uh free for anybody, which I'm guessing is
how they're building up theirdatabase.

SPEAKER_03 (04:47):
Okay.
Uh but usually if anything'sfree.

SPEAKER_02 (04:50):
Yeah.
Nothing's free.
Yeah, nothing's really free.
But uh, I was able to trace allthe way back into uh into the
1600s.
Okay.
Uh at their third place.
And it turns out it's uhBorovitz is uh rooted from
Russia, Romania, and Poland.

SPEAKER_03 (05:06):
Yeah, well that makes sense.
Sounds like all of those.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
But uh I know that the I thinkthe Russians, Ukrainians, they
don't pronounce their Vs.

SPEAKER_02 (05:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (05:17):
So let's go play walleye ball, for instance.

SPEAKER_02 (05:21):
Yes.
I I think when they try to do itin English, it does come out
that way.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (05:25):
Yeah, yeah, it does.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You're weary welcome.

SPEAKER_02 (05:28):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (05:29):
Yeah.
And I think the, yeah, what isit, the W's or V's and the V's
are silent.

SPEAKER_02 (05:33):
That's right.

SPEAKER_03 (05:33):
Yeah, exactly.
All right, so let's talk aboutum you, for instance.
Um we'll jump forward to now.
Um, you are you run a uh achapter or a uh a franchisee of
Sandler, which is a well-knowncoaching and operational
development type of company.
Yeah.

(05:54):
And you take their methodologiesand you've been able to port
that into helping constructioncompanies.

SPEAKER_02 (05:59):
Yeah.
We've taken you know, so Sandlerhas this amazing history and
amazing content that Sandler wasand still is really the only
sales methodology andcommunication process that was
based entirely on humanpsychology.
And so what so what we've doneis we've taken that and we've

(06:23):
we've ported it to theconstruction world, whether it's
both for both residential andcommercial construction.
And we've taken we've broughtthat science, the psychology
science, uh around thecommunication process and how we
talk to other human beings, andwe've translated it from
Sandler's traditional uhout-of-the-box content into

(06:47):
content that will work in inboth residential and commercial
construction.
Cool.

SPEAKER_03 (06:53):
Okay.
Um have you heard of NLP before?

SPEAKER_02 (06:59):
Of who?

SPEAKER_03 (06:59):
NLP?

SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
Oh yeah, sure.
Neuralinguistic programming.
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 (07:03):
Is there is that uh is that brought into the Sandler
protocol at all?

SPEAKER_02 (07:08):
We don't use it in in we don't use that much of it.
Uh NLP is great, and uh it's notsomething we do a lot with.
We I I'd say we we scratch theloose dirt on the surface of
NLP.
Okay.
But if you want to get into thehard clay, that's probably
somebody else.

SPEAKER_03 (07:29):
Is it okay, yeah?
Yeah, because I I was uh I was abig fan.
Actually, I've been listening tohim recently of Tony Robinson.

SPEAKER_02 (07:36):
Tony's great.

SPEAKER_03 (07:37):
Okay, like so he is apparently like NLP on on
steroids.
So anytime that he says, so doesanybody want to do this?
Say aye.
He does that.
That's like full-on any NLP onsteroids, that statement.

SPEAKER_02 (07:49):
Yes, and uh one uh a buddy of mine um used to work as
his right-hand guy.

SPEAKER_03 (07:55):
Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 (07:56):
Yeah, and so and so Tony, Tony's amazing.
I've been to a couple of Tony'sof Tony's seminars.
I've um and and he's fantasticat what he does.
Uh he's great at the NLP stuff,he's great at the motivation
stuff, amazing at it.
Uh, we we blend really nicelywith his stuff.
Yeah, because once you're onceyou're revved up and ready to

(08:18):
go, yeah, you need thebehaviors, attitudes, techniques
to go execute.
And that's what we and that'sthat's where we really go kind
of hand in glove with them.

SPEAKER_03 (08:29):
That's cool.
Nice.
Yeah.
So he gets them all excited andthen you deliver.

SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
And we deliver.
And we give them, we give themthe ability to go execute.

SPEAKER_03 (08:36):
Has has uh Sandler ever and done work with Tony
Robbins?
No, we haven't.

SPEAKER_02 (08:41):
Uh I don't I don't know that it's required.
I don't think there's a reasonwhy we haven't, except that uh
he's six seven.
That's a good reason.
Yeah, he's um he's he's sixseven, I'm five eight, so it
would look a little weird.

SPEAKER_03 (08:55):
That yeah, that would have a definite
difference, that's for sure.
Um all right.
So let's let's hop in for aminute about um you and your
background.
So take us through the like highschool forward.
What have you been doing?
How do you end up here?

SPEAKER_02 (09:12):
Well, so uh after high school, I looked around,
went to college.
Um what did you take there?
I took communication class.
Well, I start I I started out atSan Francisco State as a um film
major.
Francis Ford Coppola was thedean of the department.

SPEAKER_03 (09:26):
Oh, crazy.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
Yeah, yeah.
So it was really cool.
I got to take a class fromFrancis Ford Coppola.

SPEAKER_03 (09:31):
Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (09:31):
A screenwriting class, and got to see Godfather
Three, which is by far the leastof the Godfather movies, uh,
before it was ever released.
Yeah.
We had a matter of fact, I hadto do a critical review,
critical film review analysis asour final for Godfather three.
Oh, nice.
Okay.
Yeah, it was really neat.
And uh and then I just couldn't,it was so impacted I couldn't

(09:54):
get classes.
And so I ended up switchingclass switching my major to a
communications major, uh,figuring that, hey, no matter
what you do in life, you've gotto be able to communicate.

SPEAKER_04 (10:03):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (10:04):
And so I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do.
I had at up to that point, Ithought I wanted to be the next
Steven Spielberg.

SPEAKER_03 (10:10):
Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 (10:11):
And uh, but so then I didn't want to stay in school
for seven years to graduate.
Not that there's anything wrongwith that, but my mom and dad
would have greatly objected.

SPEAKER_03 (10:19):
That's very Seinfeld of you.

SPEAKER_02 (10:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My mom and dad would havegreatly objected to seven years
of college tuition.

SPEAKER_03 (10:25):
No kidding.
Well, back then it was only 900bucks.

SPEAKER_02 (10:28):
Yeah, it was it was a it was a little cheaper than
it is now.
My my my oldest just finishedcollege, and it was a lot more
money than what I was gonna do.
Yes, it would be.
Um, but but uh so I went and gota degree in communications, and
then I uh decided, you know,naturally like everybody else, I
couldn't figure out what Iwanted to do.
So while while I was trying tofigure out what I wanted to do,

(10:49):
I got a sales job.

SPEAKER_03 (10:50):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (10:51):
And I was selling the really cool, exciting
product of brown corrugatedshipping boxes.
Nice.
Yeah.
Before they were cool.

SPEAKER_03 (10:59):
Are they cool now?

SPEAKER_02 (11:00):
No, they've never been cool.
Okay, I was gonna say it's stillbefore they're cool.
So although I think Amazon'smade them a little cooler.
Have they?
I mean the little smile on theboxes.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Maybe a little cooler.
Yeah.
Um, and so I I I did that for awhile.
Okay.
Um, and then I decided, well, Iwanted to try uh all these

(11:21):
dot-com startups, right?
And I went to a startup thatwent dot bomb.
Okay.
And uh and then I went back toselling corrugated boxes.
Okay, because this was what Iknew.
And then I decided I wanted toget out again and I started a
business uh doing marketing.
Okay, and did okay at that forseveral years.
And I went to work in tech andspent uh gosh, about eight, nine

(11:44):
years in tech.
And and uh then started mySailor business.

SPEAKER_03 (11:50):
Okay.
So how does the how does the umwith similar similar things to
me in in a way?
Um I have the the constructionuh folk, if you will, is a very
interesting bunch.

(12:11):
Okay and uh very tribal.
Yes.
So do you um I mean I've come inthrough the technology side, uh
as you can tell, SiteMax.
And um is there a um this isgonna you might I don't know if
you'll you'll like this.

(12:32):
You'll like this you'll likethis statement, but remember
Dennis Miller?
Yeah.
Okay.
You know, when when you talkabout something that that you
aren't really in, it's he's ahit his thing was it's like
getting a sex talk from apriest.
Right, right, right.
I need to see a zipper in yourpants or proof of purchase.
Yeah.
Um so is there when when I talkabout construction, they go all

(12:55):
I in the early days, they'relike, well, you don't understand
how it is because you haven'tworked on site and all that.
I did renovate my kitchen, bythe way.
And I do know how to run tablesaws and and all of those
things.
And I am actually, I do build inthe background.
But um what is interesting isthat um I find that there is a

(13:20):
cultural piece there.
So as you're going through yourcoaching business and in in the
early days, were you did you runup against that at all?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So how did you stick out onthat?

SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
Well, we fortunately, I started out on
the residential side ofconstruction doing coaching.
Okay.
And we have been, my wife and Ihave been a client on the
registry on the residential sideseveral, several times, yeah,
with both uh some amazing peopleand some people that quite
frankly should be in jail.
And so we've seen the good, bad,and ugly on the residential

(13:53):
side.
Right.
And so I was able to talk to theresidential people early on and
talk about the fact that, hey,listen, when you say this, I
want you to understand what yourclient actually hears.
Yeah, it's not what you mean tosay, right, but it's what your
client actually hears.
And this is why it causesfriction in your communication
process.
And and that resonated.

(14:14):
And uh and then I had a clientwho checked out.

SPEAKER_03 (14:17):
Give me an example of something like that.

SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
Well, when they say we're gonna one of the things
that the residential guys liketo say is uh we'll we'll value
engineer this.
Value engineer?
What does that mean?
Well, value what they what theresidential construction person
means by value engineer is we'lluse some cheaper materials, some
lesser materials.
Maybe we use a thinner, athinner layer of granite.

(14:39):
Um we use a lesser type of wood.

SPEAKER_04 (14:42):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
Right.
But that's not what the clienthears.
The client has no idea whatresident, what value engineering
means.
To them, it means you're gonnagive me what we've designed for
less money.

SPEAKER_03 (14:53):
Ah, I see.

SPEAKER_02 (14:54):
And then it creates this friction when they look at
the material and it doesn'tquite look right, doesn't look
how they thought it was gonnalook, it doesn't feel the way
they thought it was gonna feel.
It creates this friction downthe road.
And change orders.
And and and well, it's the worstpart is it creates unpaid change
orders.
Ah, yeah.
Okay.
Because now you're doing thingsto make the client happy, and

(15:15):
they generally are like, Ialready paid you for this.
It's not my fault you decided togo to a lesser grade of wood.

SPEAKER_04 (15:22):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (15:22):
I didn't understand that.
Even though it was in the valueengineering change orders,
right, they don't read them.
And nobody called it out tothem.
Gotcha.
So the client feels bait andswitch.

SPEAKER_03 (15:33):
Okay.
So you you were in the youyou've hired some residential
contractors over the years, andyou're like, this so your
experience was not great in thebeginning.
And so you thought, hey, there'san opportunity here that the way
that people are listening tothings and the way that the
things that they're saying are,you think there can be some
optimization, some alignmentthere.
So did you, were you part ofSandler before that?

SPEAKER_02 (15:56):
Yes.
You were okay.
Yeah.
So I was already in Sandler andI I saw an opportunity to help.
And then, so as I got in on theresidential side, one of the
guys said to me, Hey, you knowwhat, Jeff, I'm tired of hearing
you say you've never soldanything uh commercial, you've
never sold any constructionagreements.
So I went on three sales calls.

(16:16):
I closed two deals, and I lookedat him and I said, Now do you
believe me when I'm saying willwork?
He goes, Yeah, because that'shigher than any closing rate
I've ever seen.
And both the deals I closed wereon design agreements that went
through to that went throughdesign, went to construction and
completed construction at a at aprofit level that was higher

(16:38):
than his normal profit level.

SPEAKER_03 (16:39):
Nice.
Okay.
So just for everyone listening,is that, you know, there's a
reason you're sitting here isfirstly because of our
introduction from Paul Athertonfrom HighSpire, who was on the
last podcast.
Awesome guy.
And he's like, you got to talkto Jeff.
And the second reason is aftertalking to you on a phone call,
uh, I realized that you havequite the coaching business on

(17:03):
your hands.
Thanks.
And uh you have quite a numberof customers, clients who you're
working with.
And um yeah, so you're no slouchin that.

SPEAKER_02 (17:14):
We we try not to be right now.
We're currently working withabout give or take 15 people, 20
people on either side of it,about 200 construction folks,
yeah, both residential andcommercial combined.
Right.
And uh we do quite a bit of workwith Paul and the HighSpire
group.
Yeah.
Uh working with both on a uhsales uh and leadership

(17:37):
coaching.
Yeah.
And uh and I will say that thefolks we've met through
HighSpire have been absolutelyfantastic, outstanding, terrific
people.

SPEAKER_03 (17:46):
Nice, cool.
Okay.
So now that we understand umwhere you've come from and
understand what what Sandler is,let's just for those people that
don't know, just give us likethe the um the organizational
description of Sandler, what itoffers, and how you're involved

(18:07):
with them.
Well, like what's that?

SPEAKER_02 (18:08):
So uh Sandler is the only sales and communication
process out there that wasdeveloped fully off of human
psychology.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (18:18):
We we did said that said that already.
So how many I guess what I wantto know is how many people like
you does Sandler have across theworld?
No problem, et cetera.

SPEAKER_02 (18:26):
So we have about 200 franchisees across the world.

SPEAKER_03 (18:29):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (18:30):
Um every Sandler franchise runs their business
independently.

SPEAKER_03 (18:34):
Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:35):
And uh we have people that you know are
fantastic trainers uh that teachstraight out of the book and do
an amazing job.
And then we have people who'vechosen, like I have, to
specialize in certainindustries.
Right.
And they've customized thematerial, they do a fantastic
job.
And so uh we have about 200franchisees across the world,

(18:59):
and we are in, let me think now,36 countries.

SPEAKER_03 (19:06):
Cool.
Do you go to an annualconvention?

SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
I do.
Uh matter of fact, ours iscoming up in November.

SPEAKER_03 (19:12):
Where is it this year?

SPEAKER_02 (19:13):
Uh it's in Washington, DC, uh, which has a
number of people a little bit uhconcerned about it.
Um is there a big cost to those?
To the convention?
Yeah.
Uh so this convention is foronly the franchisees, yeah.
Not a huge cost.
We have an annual conventionthat is for clients uh that is

(19:34):
in Orlando, Florida, everyMarch.
Yeah.
And uh that one is, I think it'sabout$1,300 for people to
attend.

SPEAKER_03 (19:42):
Right.
So the cheaper ones are in theuh are not in the hot places.
Right, right.
Exactly.
Not by the water.
Yeah, you got it.
Cool.
Um all right.
So can we um chat a little bitabout some specifics when it
comes to um when you're sayingthat Sandler is the psychology
um organizational framework inorder for to help construction

(20:05):
companies on the organizationalside, on the communication side,
on the sales side, where do youguys play?

SPEAKER_02 (20:11):
Sales and communication.

SPEAKER_03 (20:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (20:13):
Uh we we play a little bit on the organizational
side.

SPEAKER_03 (20:16):
What about the operations?

SPEAKER_02 (20:17):
Not uh only from the communication standpoint.

SPEAKER_03 (20:22):
Okay.
So let's just focus on those twothings, communication and sales.
Okay.
Okay.
Marketing too or not?
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh and where do you uh marketingum plans, I guess?
Or helping them with marketing?
Marketing messaging.
Messaging, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (20:38):
Marketing messaging.

SPEAKER_03 (20:38):
Like so brand messaging.
Yes.
Okay.
So frontline state, like frontand frontline, like, okay, I got
you.
Um on the communication side ofthings, how do you dovetail in
the psychology um piece uh thatSandler is heavily, I guess

(20:59):
that's what they weigh theirvalue proposition on, is this is
what you're selling.
Um how does that give us somesome uh tactical things that
that you do with companies?

SPEAKER_02 (21:10):
We I mean we we focus on we focus on teaching
companies both internally andexternally how to quickly build
trust with other human beings.
Right.
Uh because we believe that trustis the baseline for all
relationships.
And should be yeah, I meanrealistically, nobody's gonna
spend millions of dollars withyou if they don't trust you.

SPEAKER_03 (21:32):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (21:32):
I mean, that's just common sense, right?
And and and the and we believethat every communication,
whether it's sales, marketing,or just interpersonal
communications, begins withtrust.
And then you've got to find away to make sure that you have
mutual agreement on things,which is cementing the trust

(21:56):
into place.
Uh how many times have you everbeen in a conversation with
somebody and you think you'rethere to talk about one thing
and they think you're there totalk about something different?

SPEAKER_03 (22:05):
I mean that right now.
Just sorry, I couldn't resist.
No, it's all good.
No, no, no.
We're all we're all insane,don't worry.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (22:14):
Um, you know, oftentimes it happens when you
think you're there to talk aboutone thing, they're talking about
something else, and you'resurprised or they're surprised.
And it those that surprisecreates all kinds of friction.
And so what I think of is theSandler process is like
lubrication against friction.
Okay.
It it reduces friction.

(22:36):
And the reason that that'simportant at this point is that
surprise in the communicationprocess is the enemy of yes.
Because the minute people aresurprised about what you're
talking about, they tend to pushback.
And push back comes in the wayof no, or even worse in the
sales process is let us think itover and get back to you.

(22:57):
Right.
That's what kill that kills farmore salespeople than no than
no's do.

SPEAKER_03 (23:02):
Right.
Well, which I mean, I I have uhI talk about this this term and
I can't tell you how many timeson this podcast over the 180
episodes, but um pre-buyer'sremorse.

SPEAKER_04 (23:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (23:17):
Like the fear you're not gonna like the outcome, so
you don't do anything.

SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Yeah, right.
And and you know, and that'swhat I say all the time is that
construction companies lose farmore deals to the status quo
than they do to theircompetitors.
And they the reason the statusquo exists is that prepires them
remorse.
And we've got to build trust toovercome that.

SPEAKER_03 (23:41):
Okay.
So so what do you do on thecommunication side to help them
do that?

SPEAKER_02 (23:45):
Well, so we teach them how to how to how to read
people's communication styles.
Every every single person on theplanet has a a communication
style that they are comfortablewith.
You know, if you think about thepeople that you communicate with
most effectively, and you'llstart to think about it, you'll
realize that they tend to thatthat they tend to communicate in

(24:08):
a way that you're comfortablewith.
Um versus the people you have ahard time communicating with
tend to be people whocommunicate in a different style
than you do.

SPEAKER_03 (24:18):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 (24:19):
And makes you uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03 (24:20):
So people who are a closer communications dial.
But obviously, in when you'redealing with sales, um, you're
gonna have a huge spectrum ofhow comfortable that is.

SPEAKER_02 (24:29):
Right.
And so what we what we do is weteach people how to recognize,
how to observe, assess, andrecognize other people's
communication styles, and thenadjust theirs to match and
mirror the other person's.
Because when you do that,that'll make that one make them
feel comfortable and open themup to trust.

SPEAKER_03 (24:51):
Is there a term for that?
Like mirroring, is that matchingand mirroring, yeah.
Matching and mirroring, okay.
Um I mean, is that uh is that agenuine thing to do?

SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
I think it is as long as you're as long as it
comes from a as long as it comesfrom a place of honesty.
Yeah, I guess you're switchingmodes, right?

SPEAKER_03 (25:10):
Yeah.
You're trying to optimize.

SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
Right.
As long as your your goal is togenuinely help the other person
solve the challenges that theyhave, then I think it's I then I
think it's honest.
I think that if you're therejust for your own purposes, no,
then I think that it's it it itdoing it that way would be
manipulative.

SPEAKER_03 (25:30):
Okay.
So what do you think?
Um like reputation is a hugething.
Do you do um how to if someone'shad like bad reviews or they've
had uh they got some skeletonsin the closet, they got deals
that have gone bad, uh projectsthat have been over budget or
they've huge problems, warrantyissues, all that kind of stuff.

(25:52):
Um is that mostly because of thebeginning of those missed
expectations?
Usually that's the source of it,isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 (26:03):
Yeah.
Almost always.
It it it it's a it's a miss incommunications.
And so, you know, I think thatwe have to understand that the
clearer we can be incommunication, the more honest
we are.
Even if it costs us a deal,we're far better off.
Not sometimes we're better offnot not getting a deal that will

(26:26):
not go well than we are gettinga deal that doesn't go well.

unknown (26:30):
Right?

SPEAKER_02 (26:30):
When deals don't go well, it costs us money, it
costs, it frustrates our people.
And by the way, it's one of thetop reasons that construction
folks leave and go to a newcompetitor, go to your
competitors and sign and andstart working for them.
Because the miscommunication,the stress involved with it,
giving them bad clients whotreat them poorly gets is what

(26:51):
causes your talent to leave.

SPEAKER_03 (26:53):
Very good point.
Yeah, so your talent is on thejob site, on the front lines,
and then the client comes for asite visit and they're like,
site visit.
Um there we go.
Yeah, comes to the comes to thejob site and is saying, This is
wrong, that's wrong, this wasnot in the plans, etc.
Why is this here?
And then the foreman or thesuperintendent has to like has

(27:18):
to absorb this miscommunication.

SPEAKER_02 (27:20):
They feel hung out to dry.

SPEAKER_03 (27:22):
Because they just want to build Lego and build it
properly.
That's it.

SPEAKER_02 (27:25):
Right?
They're they're there to build.
Right.
And they the what we everythingthat's happened before we get to
putting a uh a a shovel in dirtis what determines the success
after we put shovels in dirt.
Right.
And and I mean, not to say thatproduction never makes a

(27:45):
mistake, I'm not gonna say that,but the vast majority of the of
the friction that happens afterwe put shovels in dirt comes
from what happened before thethe we started production.

SPEAKER_03 (27:58):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (27:59):
And that's all communication.

SPEAKER_03 (28:01):
Okay.
So um so what's what sort ofsize of companies are you
dealing with?
Like what's the what's thesmallest company you're dealing
with?
What's the largest?
Um like team size.

SPEAKER_02 (28:12):
So I'd say the the smallest company I deal with, um
it's pretty small on theresidential side.
How many employees?
Uh they maybe have seven, eightemployees, but they gen they
they contract out everything.
That's right enough.
Right.
Okay.
And then the largest?
Largest is wow.
Um, we've got a couple clientswith several thousand employees.

SPEAKER_03 (28:34):
So what do you see that's common between those?

SPEAKER_02 (28:37):
Oh, it's it it's all communication.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (28:41):
Okay.
So like communication is it's avery broad term.
We have to get to some more.

SPEAKER_02 (28:46):
I'll get somewhere deeper on that.

SPEAKER_03 (28:47):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (28:49):
Just a little bit.
Yeah.
So I think that it it variesbased on the whether we're
talking about operations, uh,management, sales, marketing.
What I see, the most commonthing I think on I see on the
sales side is we jump, we jumpto presentation too fast.
Um, we hear a problem that aclient has and we go, oh, I can

(29:13):
solve it, right?
And we want to present.
And I and so we call that uhwe'll keep it, we'll we'll keep
it PG 13, like we agreedbeforehand.
Uh, we call it PPS, which ispremature presentation syndrome,
right?
We we jump to presentationbefore we really should, and
we're solving problems.
And when we do that, we weusually have an incomplete

(29:35):
understanding of what theclient's problem is and the
impact of that problem is onthem.

SPEAKER_03 (29:42):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (29:42):
And when and then we're presenting to an
incomplete picture, which we maybe right, we may be wrong, and
then we and then they agree tosomething, and then we get into
the the details and we realizethat we we we missed each other
by hundreds of miles.

SPEAKER_03 (29:59):
I see.

SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
Right.
That's the sales side.
On the leadership side, what wesee is I think the mo the most
common thing we see is leadersfocusing too much on results,
which are a lagging indicator.
By the time we can judgeresults, it's too late to do

(30:21):
anything.
Okay.
And not looking out the front,windshield of the car enough at
the leading indicators to know,hey, trouble's coming, or we're
in really good shape because wehave all these leading
indicators that we're runningour business off of.

SPEAKER_03 (30:35):
So give us some examples of those.

SPEAKER_02 (30:36):
So sales is a lagging indicator.
Profitability is a laggingindicator.
Leading indicators are more uhnumber of number of clients in
the pipeline.
What percentage of those clientsactually match our ideal client
profile?
One of the things I'm reallysurprised by is uh I was
recently working with a largecommercial company.

(30:57):
We we looked at 105 deals intheir pipeline, right?
And when we went, we comparethat to their ideal client
profile, 21 of the 105 matchedtheir ideal client profile.
And the other ones they knewdidn't match, but we're keeping
it, we're keeping them in therein case we in case we get low on

(31:19):
revenue.

SPEAKER_03 (31:20):
Weird.
Okay.
So um there's obviously a costbase to getting those in the
pipeline.

SPEAKER_02 (31:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (31:27):
So are they paying their salespeople to get those
in and then not not utilizingthem, even though they're not
part of the ICP?

SPEAKER_02 (31:33):
I think that the mistake is that they're is that
they're frustrating in thiscompany, they were frustrating
their salespeople becausethey're letting them go after
things they should never letthem go after.
Right.
They get in the pipeline, andthen when things are good, they
tell them, no, we can't do that.
When things are bad, they takeit.
It sends this very unsteadymessage to the sales team where

(31:57):
they get confused.
And now when we ask, and youknow, we went through the
exercise of asking uh seven ofthe salespeople what the ICP
was, we got seven differentanswers.
And and that's and that's notthe salespeople's fault.
That's a leadership problem.

SPEAKER_03 (32:12):
So is the so is the ICP mostly based around the
project or the type of customer?

SPEAKER_02 (32:17):
The ICP should be based upon the client, the type
of client, right?
And so when I look at ICP, I Ijudge four things in an ICP.

SPEAKER_03 (32:26):
Why the type of client?

SPEAKER_02 (32:28):
Well, because if we don't, if we're not talking to
the right type of clients, theydon't have the right type of
projects.
It's it's not it's so if okay.
I gotcha.
Yeah, I mean yeah, if ifsomebody's if the client mainly
builds small res smallcommercial strip centers, yeah,
and we're looking to buildskyscrapers, we shouldn't be

(32:51):
talking to develop to developerswho build strip malls.
It doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_03 (32:56):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (32:56):
Right?

SPEAKER_03 (32:57):
But sometimes they do.

SPEAKER_02 (32:58):
Well, and when they do, we'll take those projects,
right?
Okay, right, because the theproject makes them a fit.
But when we're going out toprospect to those developers,
yeah, we have to be aiming atthe ones who we know fit our
ICP.

SPEAKER_04 (33:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (33:13):
And listen, there's nothing wrong with people who
build small strip malls.
I know, I know some companiesthat make a lot of money doing
that.
Yeah, right.
And so we just have to decidewhat do we want to be, because
we can't be everything toeverybody.
And so for me, there's fourthings.
What are the characteristics ofyour best clients?
Right.
And if you want to know what thecharacteristics of your best

(33:34):
clients are, the best way toknow that is to go backwards.
Look at the last five, 10projects you've done.
What were the common, what werethe characteristics that those
people had?
What, you know, uh, what type ofwhat type of developments do
they do?
What was their history like?
How many people do they have bidon projects?
Right.
I I don't know about you, but ifI was running a commercial

(33:57):
construction company, I'd rathernot bid against seven or eight
or ten other companies.
Right.
Um, maybe those those developersare not who we want to be with,
right?
And and figure out what thecharacteristics are of our pat
of our last five, 10 clients.
And then what and then thesecond thing is we want to go.

SPEAKER_03 (34:16):
It'll be the last clients that the projects were
deemed successful from a companypoint of view.
That's right.
So not just every past client,just every past client.
The ones that they're like,yeah, we would do that again.

SPEAKER_02 (34:26):
We would love more projects like this, right?
Right?
Go look at the characteristicsof the developers, right?
On the commercial side.
And then what are the actionsthat those people took?
Right?
Did they go to bid to anyeverybody, or were they
selective who they went to bidwith?
Were the was the bid a was thebid a straight RFP with no

(34:51):
discussion?
Or was it something where youwere able to talk back and
forth?
Right.
And usually the most successfulones are where we can talk back
and forth.
Right.
And so if we know that those arein this company's case, they won
six out of ten when they haddiscussion back and forth.

(35:13):
They won two out of ten whenthey had no discussion back and
forth, and it was just straightRFP.
Where should you spend yourtime?

SPEAKER_03 (35:22):
Yeah, fair enough.
The um Do you think AI is gonnamake this worse?

SPEAKER_02 (35:28):
What do you mean?

SPEAKER_03 (35:30):
Well, the RFP isn't gonna be more robots than there
are gonna be conversations.

SPEAKER_02 (35:33):
Well, I I think that we have to think about AI as
what AI is and what AI shouldbe.
Listen, I I just saw the otherday there are robots in Japan
swinging hammers right now.
Right?
I don't want to scare the hellout of anybody, but there are

(35:54):
robots in Japan that can swinghammers and do it more
effectively than human beingscan.

SPEAKER_03 (35:58):
In Japan?

SPEAKER_02 (35:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (35:59):
When was this?

SPEAKER_02 (36:00):
Uh there was something on on the internet the
other day about it.

SPEAKER_03 (36:03):
In Japan.

SPEAKER_02 (36:04):
In Japan.

SPEAKER_03 (36:05):
I was just there like a year and a half ago.

SPEAKER_02 (36:07):
They were showing they were showing it the other
day.

SPEAKER_03 (36:09):
They know the weird thing about Japan is I've I
found from from uh when I was inTokyo, is that the um all the
construction sites, all thehoarding is exactly the same.
It's it's uh controlled by theby the civically and there's no
signage, there's no color, it'sall white.

SPEAKER_02 (36:31):
How do you know that?

SPEAKER_03 (36:32):
Yep.
And it all is identical.
So I think that your hoardingaround your job, you you're not
allowed to see in.

SPEAKER_02 (36:41):
Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 (36:42):
They make it so there is zero, so they once the
gates close, um, it's yeah, it'stotally opaque.

SPEAKER_02 (36:50):
It reminds me, you were talking about the Seinfeld
reference earlier, right?
Oh yeah.
And I I remember seeing JerrySeinfeld in concert and Jerry uh
do a comedian come uh comedicshow, and uh he said he was
talking about constructionsites, and the reason they have
windows in the constructionsites is because guys will guys
like to pretend they know a lotmore about construction than

(37:10):
they really do, right?
Oh yeah, you guys are usingsteel beams.
Yeah, that'll work, right?
And and he said, because if theydidn't put windows in, the guys
would be up over the wallswalking around the construction
sites.
And the whole reason that theythey put windows isn't so that
that doesn't happen.
It sounds like in Japan.

SPEAKER_03 (37:26):
In Japan, yeah.
Yeah, no.
So you've seen robots swinginghammers on the internet the
other day, uh like two weeksago.
Is that real?

SPEAKER_02 (37:34):
They swore to God it was real.

SPEAKER_03 (37:35):
Who did?

SPEAKER_02 (37:36):
The people that posted it.

SPEAKER_03 (37:38):
Oh, those those those people, those them, those
trustworthy people on theinternet.

SPEAKER_02 (37:43):
I mean, listen, I could it have been fake?
Sure.

SPEAKER_03 (37:46):
Not saying that.

SPEAKER_02 (37:46):
Hey man, I'm I'm uh I I don't know, but I know that
I just saw a robot.
I just saw a robot that that canjump on a box and dance.
And if they can do that, how faris it to doing this?

SPEAKER_03 (38:02):
Well, it depends if it was or not, though.

SPEAKER_02 (38:03):
Was it doing it?
It was, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (38:07):
No, no, no.
I'm talking about the hammerone.
I'm really fascinated.
I want to I want to focus onthat.

SPEAKER_02 (38:10):
I don't I don't know.
I can I they showed video of it.
It didn't look like an AI video,it looked like a real video.

SPEAKER_03 (38:17):
But like was the dexterity there, it looked like
you you could just leave thisthing to actually do something
properly.

SPEAKER_02 (38:24):
Yeah, looked like it.

unknown (38:25):
Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (38:27):
It looked like it, but I I I think that my point
Did it have was it a humanoid?

SPEAKER_03 (38:31):
Did it have wheels?

SPEAKER_02 (38:32):
It was it was legs and and arms.

SPEAKER_03 (38:34):
Legs and arms.
Yeah.
Do you know what brand it was?

SPEAKER_02 (38:37):
It was white.
I don't know the brand.
It I not what that's although II don't remember the brand on
it.
I it was a white robot.

SPEAKER_03 (38:47):
Gotcha.
Okay.
Um that's uh that's yeah, that'sthat's an interesting setup
there.

SPEAKER_02 (38:55):
Um but but I I guess my point to it is really this is
we have to decide what AI isgonna be and what AI is not
gonna be in each of ourbusinesses.
And I think that where AI reallycan benefit construction
companies is to take to is totake the tasks that are
repetitive in nature and lowskill, and that's certainly not

(39:20):
construction, but some of thepaperwork stuff, right?
And automate it.
Um to take to take the thingsthat our our people don't like
to do, the what I'll call scutwork.

SPEAKER_03 (39:35):
Dull, dirty, and dangerous?

SPEAKER_02 (39:36):
Yeah, dull, dirty, dangerous work that has to get
done, but nobody likes to do it.
If we can automate that, thatmakes all the sense in the
world.

SPEAKER_03 (39:45):
Do you know the guys from Super Droids?

SPEAKER_02 (39:47):
I don't.

SPEAKER_03 (39:47):
Okay.
They're making constructionrobots.
Have you seen the paintingrobot?

SPEAKER_02 (39:51):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (39:52):
That thing's deadly.
That's what I was interestedabout the one hammering, because
hammering is such a weird thing.
Like it's I mean, how muchhammering is going on these
days?
We've got nail guns.
Yeah.
The hammer is kind of like ablunt instrument these days.

SPEAKER_02 (40:05):
I felt like they were using it to demonstrate
dexterity that what they whatthey could do, right?
Well, and it was like two tapsand the robots driven the nail
all the way in.

SPEAKER_03 (40:15):
Well, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (40:16):
Right.
Um, but I think humans can dothat too.
Um, Mr.
Miyagi did it in one, right?

SPEAKER_03 (40:21):
With a good e with a good, nice, balanced east wing.

SPEAKER_02 (40:23):
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 (40:26):
Okay, cool.
So let's get back to um um youknow, you we were saying that
there's an RFP that is justcommunication only, like email
or whatever, and then that's it.
Or there's opportunities whereyou actually get to talk, and
then you can actually discernwhat that communication style

(40:47):
is.
Then you can do the mirroringand matching.
Um and then is it is it alwaysgonna be then about price, or is
it gonna be about promise, or isit what's what's it usually
shouldn't be about any of that,honestly.

SPEAKER_02 (41:06):
What should it be about?
It should be about what are thewhat are the what Sandler would
call pains that they have, andpain gets to be an overused
word.
And so let me define it for youfor you and the listeners.
What we call pain is acompelling emotional reason to
do something.

SPEAKER_03 (41:25):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (41:26):
And I don't care if it's a residential remodel or a
commercial skyscraper, there'spain involved.
Right?
And we need it's our job to askquestions to understand what the
pain is, why it exists, and howit impacts the company or the

(41:51):
individual.
The what, why, and how.
If we can understand what thepain is, why it exists, and how
it impacts them, that and nowthe question becomes is it
something that we can solve?
If it is, we should solve it.
Right.
And and if we can find, we knowstatistically, if we can find

(42:12):
three to five of those what,why, and hows and that we can
solve, our chances of making thesales go up in a closing rate
goes up into the high 80s, low90s percentiles.
And and it doesn't become aboutmoney at all, because it becomes
about you understanding theirproblems and appealing to them

(42:33):
on a more emotional level.
Okay, and takes the intellectualpart of the sale, which is
money, by the way, out of it.
You know, we we like to say atSandler that sales are made
emotionally and justifiedintellectually.

(42:55):
Interesting.
Yeah, that's cool.
And money's the intellectualpart.
You know, I mean, I want you tothink about it.
And here's here's what I'll sayis this.
Um if you go, if you go if yougo to the store and buy this
bottle of water, this Canada'sWhistler bottle of water, um,

(43:16):
how much does it cost?

SPEAKER_03 (43:18):
Dollar twenty-nine.

SPEAKER_02 (43:18):
And you feel okay about that?
Yeah.
If you go to Vancouver Airportand buy this bottle of water
past security, how much does itcost?
$6.50.
And you feel okay about that?

SPEAKER_03 (43:30):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (43:31):
But why do you buy it?

SPEAKER_03 (43:33):
Because you need the water.
Because you're thirsty, right?
Or you can't get back out ofsecurity.
Yeah.
Emotional.
You can't buy it anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 (43:40):
Yeah, you can't bring it in.
So you have to call forceddemand.
That's well, forced demand, butit uh but you could choose to
wait to get on the plane wherethey'll give you free water.
Um but most people buy the waterthen because they they have an
emotional need for water, right?
They're thirsty, the what andand I want to quench my thirst,

(44:04):
which is the the how, right?
How it's impacting me.
I'm thirsty, I want to, I don'twant to be thirsty anymore.
So I'll spend$650 for a dollartwenty-nine bottle of water.
And it's the emotional need thatuh drives the sale.
The intellectual second surpassthe intellect.
It surpasses the intellect.

SPEAKER_03 (44:30):
I mean, there's an element of satiation there.
Yeah, and there is in that thatit's like I don't care what it
costs right now.
I I've got I'm so thirsty.
Yeah.
Does that happen with thisthough?
It does.
So think about this way.
They're not actually, because uhI'll just I'll just say it's a

(44:50):
good example to some degree, butlet's just say that past
security, there are four stores,one's four dollars, the other
one's six, the other one's threedifferent brand of water, but
it's not the same as the onethat was on the other side that
was a dollar twenty-nine.
So um, and that's kind of howhow this works, right?

(45:16):
There's that there's there's theemotional side where okay, let
me ask you this.
Have you had customers that theysay, look, we really want to go
with you guys?
But can you sharpen your pencila little bit?
Because the other guys who we'drather not go with are like
quite a lot less.

SPEAKER_02 (45:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (45:37):
Often I've I've heard people say, go with though
then.
Go go with them then.
Because we can't, we're givingyou, we're we are charging you
on a price that we can serviceyou properly.
Anything less than that, we haveto cut corners.
I mean, I don't I don't want todo that on your project.

SPEAKER_02 (45:55):
Yeah.
So that that's not a horribleanswer, but it's you justifying,
defending, and explaining yourposition.
Okay.
What's better is to ask somequestions back.
Okay.
Right.
So I might I might say, well, ifif they're that much less, why

(46:15):
wouldn't you just go with them?
And see what they say, right?
That's like that's good, yeah.
Right.
And then I might ask them, hmm.
I'll use what I'll call apresumptive question.
Okay.
Where I'll say, hey, when youask them what percentage of
their jobs have change ordersand what percentage what's their

(46:37):
finished price percentage totheir quoted price percentage,
what did they say?
Well, I know darn well that theydidn't ask that question.
But what are they gonna ask now?
Right?
But if I do that, I've got to bevery careful because what's the
next thing they're gonna say tome?
What are they gonna say?
They're gonna ask me that samequestion, right?

(46:59):
What's your as the client to me?
Yeah, as the client, theclient's gonna say to me, Well,
what's your percentages?
Okay.
Now, if I know that, so if I'masking that question, I I'm
gonna make sure I know thembefore I ask that question.
Right?
And then when they go to mycompetitor and ask them that
question, they don't know it,who looks better?
Who looks more honest?

(47:20):
Right?
When they go, Oh, well, I don'tknow.
We'd have nobody's ever asked usbefore that us that before.
We'll have to get back to you.
And then they take an insanelylong time to get back to them
because they will.
We know that.
Because they're gonna have to goback and figure it out, right?
Um, that scramble that theclient sees doesn't instill

(47:41):
confidence.
It instills confidence in theperson who knew it.
And so rather than go back to,hey, you know, sharpen.
I have never given in my wholesales career, whether I was
selling corrugated boxes ormarketing or tech or sandler,
I've never given anybody a prizeI have and say, oh my God,

(48:01):
that's amazing.
Yes, let's go.
Almost every single time there'sa pause and they'll say
something like, Can you sharpenyour pencil?
Or can you guys do any better?
Right?
It's just common.
And so rather than start tojustify, defend, or explain, ask

(48:24):
questions.
Put them in the position ofhaving to sell you on why they
should of what they mean and whythey need a lower price, right?
And and when you force them tojustify, defend, and explain, it
comes across as you as theultimate professional and the
expert, which is where you wantto be.

SPEAKER_03 (48:45):
Is there um you provide strategies for knowing
um knowing how much the clientneeds them?
Yeah.
So and knowing how invested theyare like in the process.
Yeah.

(49:06):
Because it because if you ifthey already know kind of who
they want to go with, and thennow it's just a matter of the
intellectual part, then there'sa certain amount of and
emotional investment that'salready been put in.
So I'll just give you anexample.

(49:26):
Here's the ultimate amount ofinvestment in a sales
transaction, and it's notrelated to construction, but
I'll give it to you anyway.

unknown (49:34):
Sure.

SPEAKER_03 (49:35):
So I'm selling something for a thousand bucks,
okay, on Craigslist.
The person's like, hey, um, youknow, can you sharpen your
pencil?
Like, no, no, that's that'sseriously, yeah.
Like I listed at a fair price,blah, blah, blah.
Then I say, okay, well, you'regonna come and pick it up.
And they go, yeah, well, I liveout in blah, blah, blah.

(49:57):
Can you meet me halfway?
It's like, look, do you want itor not?
Okay.
So they drive an hour and a halfto come and get this thing.
Okay.
Now I know they've made an hourand a half drive investment.
Yeah.
Right.
I've actually had it wheresomebody says, hey, uh, I only
brought 950 bucks with me.
And do you know what my answeris?
Well, it's now 1,050.

(50:18):
And they go, Well, you can'tchange the price.
I'm like, you're trying to rightnow.
Only because I have theintelligence of knowing they
drove an hour and a half.
That's right.
That's why I know I can say nowit's 1,050 as a bank machine
around the corner.

SPEAKER_02 (50:32):
But that's the pain, right?
That's that pain stab.

SPEAKER_03 (50:35):
It is.
So you get to identify how muchpain, though, and where you
stand.

SPEAKER_02 (50:39):
And that's what we that's exactly what we teach is
a predictable, repeatableprocess that people can follow
to understand the pains andunderstand the what the pain is,
why it exists, and how it'simpacting them.
Right.
If you can understand theemotional impact, which is I
just drove an hour and a half,yeah, right.
I'm not leaving hereempty-handed over 50 or 100

(51:02):
bucks.
Yeah.
Right.
You're you're in the driver'sseat.
Most people, James, don't dothat.
They'll go, okay, it's only 50bucks, sure.
Right.
And they'll give them, and andthe, and and when we do that,
you know, you always have tothink about this, especially in
construction.
You're training your client howthe rest of the transaction is

(51:22):
going to go.
Very good point.
Yeah.
Right.
If I, if I cave right here,right now, what's going to
happen on the first changeorder?
And we know there's going to beone, right?
And I've just taught them thatthey can push me on price every
single time.
Right.
Your sad behavior.

(51:43):
Yeah.
I've taught them that that's howI sell, and that's okay for them
to buy that way.
And that's crazy.
Right.
Instead, you know, my favorite,my favorite is, hey, can you do
it for nine, can you do it for$9.50?
Wish I could, but I can't.
And that's the only statement Imake.
I just, I'm going to be in abunch of trouble next at the end

(52:06):
of this week, uh, because mydaughter's been away at college.
She's coming home for the firsttime since she left.
And we just sold her car.
We told her before she left wewere going to sell the car, but
we haven't actually told herthat we sold the car yet.
When I was selling the car, itwas a used car, a 15-year-old
car, 16-year-old car.
And the guy, and we were sellingfor$3,500.

(52:28):
It's got 140,000 miles on it.
And the guy said to me, Can youdo it for$3,000?
Right?
He's got, he's alreadytest-driven the car.
He's already told me he likesit.
And he's already told me thathis other car is dead and he
can't drive anymore.
And he's having to get ridesfrom friends.
All right.
And is there any way, shape, orform that I'm going to come down

(52:49):
to$3,000?
Yeah.
No.
I said, I looked at him, I said,I wish I could, but I can't.
He's sitting there and went.

SPEAKER_03 (52:58):
Okay, so I'll go.

SPEAKER_02 (52:59):
Okay, here's$3,500.

SPEAKER_03 (53:00):
So this is really cool.
So do you have strategies forpeople during the sales process
and during the RFP process ifthey get to have conversations?

SPEAKER_02 (53:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (53:10):
Um, of how to position themselves to be able
to get this information to knowwhere they stand.

SPEAKER_02 (53:18):
Yeah, that's exactly what we do.

SPEAKER_03 (53:20):
Okay.
So how do you do that?
So we teach without giving allof where you're standing.

SPEAKER_02 (53:25):
I find it's not about the what, it's the how
that people I can give us thewhat I can give you exactly what
the what is, and people willstill not be able to do it.
Okay, go.
Okay.
And so what we do is we havetaken Sandler has a process as a
tool called the Sandler PainFunnel.
It works really good, exceptthat in remote in construction,
whether it be commercialresidential remodeling or or

(53:45):
commercial building, we have tochange it a little bit.
Yeah.
So we've we've altered it.
We give them those painquestions.
And but those pain questions arelike it's like the elevation A
of a of an architect drawn.
It shows you, here's what youhave to ask, but it doesn't give

(54:08):
you all the quite all the allthe things behind it, right?
It's like, you know, it alwayskills me when people say, when
when clients say, well, we wantto see some pictures of finished
projects.
Why?
Do they not think that you havefinished projects?
Can you tell a lot by thepictures of a by the pictures of
a finished project?

SPEAKER_03 (54:26):
This is though, this is for the justification for
later.
Yeah.
This is, hey, we pick these, andsomeone else says, so, oh yeah,
so what projects they're doing?
Oh, yeah, this, this, this, andthis.

SPEAKER_02 (54:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (54:36):
That's just credibility.

SPEAKER_02 (54:37):
That's credibility for later, right?
But in the but when they ask forthat too early, we need to ask
questions to understand whatthey're going to do with those
pictures.
Okay.
So what would the what would therebuttal be?
So yeah, we have lots ofpictures.
What are you how are how is howwill the pictures help you and
how will you use them in theprocess?

(54:58):
And now I'm putting it on them.
Right?
Because, and well, we want touse it to prove quality.
Okay, interesting.
I I just wonder how the pictureshelp you prove quality when I
know for us, most of our qualityis what's behind the wall.
That's a really good setup,right?

(55:19):
And it puts them in a differentposition.
Right.
And so the pain funnel questionsare important, but what's more
important than the pain funnelquestions are behind every one
of those pain funnel questions,there's five, six, seven
follow-up questions.
And that's what that's that'sthe how, right?

(55:40):
Is the qu is what we call thequestions behind the questions.
And having them ready at the tipof your tongue is the key to
being successful.

SPEAKER_03 (55:50):
Cool.
So do you uh do you provide themthis conversational framework?
Yes.
Of possibles.
This is how you interact withus.

SPEAKER_02 (56:00):
We do more than that.
We we not only we not only givethem the conversational
possibles, but we're we're gonnagive them some examples.
And then we're gonna ask them todefine their own for because
listen, every business, I havein all the thousands of
companies I've worked with,right?
Commercial, residential, andtech, and everything else, every

(56:24):
one of those clients, every oneof those owners have told me the
same thing.
And and it's really funny whenyou think about it.
But what they say, James, iswell, you know, Jeff, that's
great, but we're different.
Every one of them says we'redifferent.
And so if we believe them for aminute, let's go ahead and say
we believe them, then theycan't, yes, use an
out-of-the-box solution.

(56:45):
If they're really different, andwhich they're not as different
as they think they are, butwe'll we'll let them feel
special, right?
And we'll and we're gonna get,we're gonna let them come up
with the questions behind thequestions.
We're gonna guide them, we'regonna help them mold them, but
the concepts are gonna be alltheirs.
And then what we have is wetalked about AI a little bit

(57:06):
earlier.
We have an amazing AI tool uhthat blows people's mind.
We have an AI sales coach thatis programmed with Sandler, and
so we can create, every one ofour clients can create their own
role play for where they are inthe sales process.

(57:27):
It takes less than five minutesto create the role play, and
then you can go on and you canrole play with the with exactly,
you can even put the LinkedInprofiles of the people you're
talking to into the into theroleplay tool, and it'll act as
those people's LinkedIns.
And and you can role play andthen get coaching based on how

(57:48):
it went.
Here's what you did well, here'swhat you should do more of,
here's what you could do better.
Right.
Um, and and now you can go outand try it again, you know.
And I think that that's that's ahuge piece of the pie.
Uh, because now when you thinkabout it, how much does it cost

(58:11):
a construction company to getinto those conversations?
I mean, lots.
Lots of lots of dinners, lots ofcoffee.
Right.
And it's thousands of dollars,probably, right?
At the very least, at the veryleast, hundreds of dollars.
Would you rather have yourpeople practicing on the leads
that cost you all that money, orwith this role play tool?

unknown (58:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (58:34):
And have the, and by the time that by the time they
go to have the conversation,it's the fifth or sixth time
they've had the conversationbecause of the five role of the
four or five role plays they'vedone, yeah, where they got to a
85, 90, 95% completion, and nowthey're super prepared when they
go in to see the client.
Right.
And so not only are we givingthem the tool, not only are we

(58:58):
giving them the development oftheir own tools, but we're
giving them the ability to thenpractice before they go see the
client.

SPEAKER_03 (59:04):
They need these on dating sites.

unknown (59:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (59:06):
No doubt, right?
Have a lot more happy people outthere.
Yeah, for sure.
Um, well, that's pretty cool.
So um so what do you think islike the what is the biggest
issue that you come across rightnow with most of the companies
dealing with besides the wordcommunication, because we've dug
way deeper into that now.

(59:26):
But what do you think uh is themain is one of the things that
they're all freaked out about?

SPEAKER_02 (59:33):
I I think there's I think that they are freaked out
by VUCA.
Um the the VUCA is an acronymthat uh the U.S.
General Arnold uh um NormanSchwartzkoff.
Okay.
Um almost said Arnold Schwartzin error.
It was close.
Yeah, it was close.

(59:53):
I don't think he actually wentto war, but I don't think he
did.
Umly in the movies.
Um but nor uh NormanSchwarzkopf, who Who commanded
the army, uh, the armies duringuh the Iraq war in the 90s, he
called it VUCA.
He said VUCA stands forvolatility.
And there's certain I don't knowif there's ever a time in my
lifetime that we've been thatthe world's been more volatile

(01:00:16):
than it is at the moment.
Yeah, it's weird right now.
Right?
Yeah.
The the U stands foruncertainty.
Yeah.
Right?
We're certainly in uncertaintimes.
Uh we've in the US, where I'mfrom, we've got federal troops
being deployed into cities,right?
Carrying rifles.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:34):
Do you actually see that right now?

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:36):
Crazy.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:36):
It's nuts, right?
Um and so, and then the C standsfor complexity.
I don't know if the world's everbeen more complex than it is
right now.
And the A stands for ambiguityuh ambiguity.
And there's certainly a lot ofambiguity in the world.
And so I think when we allow thevolatility, the uncertainty, the

(01:00:57):
complexity, the ambiguity toaffect us, we're also allowing
it as leaders, we're alsoallowing it to affect our
people.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:05):
And because if the leader feels it, the people feel
it.
Right.
And if they're not feeling it,the news is certainly giving it
to them every single night,isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:14):
So how does the um how does the leader inoculate
their staff from this feelingthat they have?

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:21):
They have to eliminate three things from
their minds.
They have to eliminate fear,doubt, and worry from their
minds.
So you ever see the movie InsideOut?
Yeah.
So I I do believe that thatlittle committee of cartoon
characters exists in your head,right?
Yeah.
And three of the people, threeof the three of those characters
are fear, doubt, and worry.

(01:01:43):
And when we let, and here's thething about fear, doubt, and
worry.
They show up early.
They stay late.
They're great employees, right?
They show up early, they staylate, and they speak up more
often and more loudly thananybody else in our heads, in
any of those voices in ourheads.
And we have to replace thosevoices with other voices.
And we have to, so if we look atwhat are we going to replace

(01:02:05):
them with, I listen, I thinkthat fear is the fear is our
guard out of out of out of outof VUCA that stops us from being
getting out of the VUCA area andgoing into a a growth area.
Fear likes to keep us wherewe're at.

(01:02:27):
Right.
And so we have to re we have tohave we have to understand that
the antidote to fear is courage.
And courage courage is not whatHollywood sells us.
Courage is not the is not uh MelGibson and Braveheart giving a

(01:02:48):
speech and yelling and charging.
That's not courage.
Right?
I mean, what courage is is and II'll go back to remember
Tiananmen Square?
Yep.
Remember the guy standing infront of the tank?
I do, yeah.
That's courage.
Courage is standing in front ofwhat you fear, even though
everything in your body isshaking and quivering and doing

(01:03:11):
it anyways.

unknown (01:03:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:13):
That's courage.
And we've got to listen to thecourage, right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:16):
I I think um Can we double click on this for a sec?
Yeah.
So I don't have any data onthis, and I don't really I don't
know who does in terms of theemotional evolution of humans
since uh we would go out and tryand hunt, we're gonna be killed
out there.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:35):
Like real.
Or we're stepping into someoneelse's hunting zone and they're
just gonna kill us if we try andtake their game.
So I don't really know I I'm nota psychologist, but do you think
that you know we have sprintedso fast into this this
pseudo-fear world, whereas we'refearing this thing, we're

(01:04:01):
designed to think it's actualdeath that we're staring uh down
the barrel of a gun, but itisn't.
But it feels like it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:11):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:12):
So how do you what's the intersection there of
letting people know?
And I heard this the other day,is is that what worry does is we
always think it's the worst.
We don't, you know, you think ofit's a worst case scenario,
worst case scenario.
And that is, is that a humancondition of trying to keep us

(01:04:34):
alive?
It can be, I think.
It must be.
Why else would it exist?
Because that's probably why thehuman race has been able to
exist enough, because it's gotin that in the amygdala, there
you're you can actually uh saveyourself from getting killed.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:50):
I think there's a difference between worry that
saves us and worry that hindersus.
Um I mean, we have to decide atsome point the cavemen right had
to decide did they want to comeout of the cave at night and go
over the hill.
At some point they decided to doit.

(01:05:12):
Right?
And that necessity to do thatwas a creation of fire.
Is AI the new fire?
I don't know.
It could be, it could be incertain ways, right?
I mean, it's it's reallyinteresting to see what's

(01:05:33):
happening.
I there's uh I heard on the newsthis morning as when I was at
the airport, uh getting ready tofly out of San Francisco that
there was uh a report uh the conthe US Commerce Department that
says that AI could eliminate ahundred million jobs in the next
10 years.
Right?
Think about that.
Well, if it eliminates a hundredmillion jobs, that's 35, 40

(01:05:55):
percent unemployment.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:56):
Yeah, what about your Tokyo uh hammer slayer?

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:59):
Right.
Same thing, right?
Yeah, it could be.
Uh but but I think that's Ithink the truer thing is this.
The problem with that is theysaid the same thing.
They said um they said the samething when when uh when we went
to the printing press.

(01:06:20):
It was good it was gonna killthe economy.
And then the automobile wasgonna kill the economy.
It did kill the horse and buggybusiness.
It did.
It evolved it evolved.
Because if you ask people in thehorse and buggy era, it did kill
the town crier.
It did.
It did.
The printing press.
But it created how many otherjobs?
Got it.
Right.
And and uh and more recently,I'll go to the the personal

(01:06:44):
computer in the 80s, well, late70s, early 80s, right?
When IBM PC came out and thenthe the the Apple II.
Yeah, right?
Oh, it was the end ofeverything, remember?
Uh it killed the typewriterbusiness.
The word processor.
Yeah, it killed the wordprocessor, or killed the
typewriter.
Yeah, right.
Uh, how many typewriters do yousee anymore?

(01:07:04):
But it created how many uh howmany tens of thousands of
millions of jobs over over time.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:11):
Jobs that other humans use their fingers for.
That's right.
This is different.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:16):
Because this is no use for humans because they're
inefficient.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:20):
So it's really interesting.
Um, my son's starting, my sonjust graduated.
I told you that before earlier.
And we uh how old is he?

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:29):
He's 22.
Okay, so what do you what do youwhat is he focused on?

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:33):
Yeah.
So it's really interestingbecause he tried he's tried to
find a marketing job.
And he spent nine months tryingto find a marketing job.
And most first-level marketingjobs have been overtaken by AI.
And he's had a horrible time.
And so finally he came to theconclusion, he said, you know
what?
I know quite a bit about AI.

(01:07:54):
He created a company calledPeople First AI, that he is
training business owners ofsmall, medium-sized companies
how to implement AI into theircompanies in an ethical way that
is responsible to the people andhelps elevate people, not push
them out.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:13):
And so he's created this company doing this.
And for right now, I think he'sin the right place at the right
time.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:20):
How's it going with him?

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:21):
He's just getting started, so we'll see.
Okay.
He's got his first uh his firstclass starting, I think, later
this week or next week.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:27):
First class?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:28):
Oh, teaching people.
Teaching people.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:30):
Oh, cool, yeah.
Nice.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:30):
And so he's got a group of business owners he's
put together to go do that.
So we'll see how it goes forhim.
But it's a great idea.
Um, you know, devil's in thedetails.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:39):
So what else is in the VUCA?
So we, you know, so we've got totake the uncertainty.
Yeah.
And what's the like all thistariffs and all this kind of
stuff creates a crazyuncertainty?
Interest rates.
Yeah.
Um, immigration, how many houseswe have to build?
Are they gonna kick everyoneout?
Like, what's the deal?

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:57):
So I'll go back to 2020.
Remember 2020, and everybodythought the world was ending,
right?
With all the changes and andlike with COVID, you mean?
Yeah, with COVID.
Did you think it was gonna end?
I didn't, but the I can't tellyou the number of remodelers
that thought residentialremodelers that thought their
world was ending.
Um, and because there was noconstruction starts.

(01:09:19):
There was no remodeling for agood period of time.
Right.
Right.
And if I had, you know, it'sfunny because if I told the
remodelers back then, hey, Ithink you're gonna go have the
best two years of your in thehistory of your company in 21
and 22, they would have thoughtI was crazy.
But it's exactly what happened.
Right.
Because here's what we know isis that necessity is the mother

(01:09:45):
of invention.
It forced them to find newsupply chains, it forced them to
do things differently, right?
Forced them to put COVIDpractices into place.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:54):
Use software.
Huh?
Software, not paper.
That's right.
It turned into a soccer match.
That's right.
You can't touch anything withyour hands, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:01):
Exactly.
Good.
I like that.
Um thank you for calling soccer,not football.
Um the the but I think that whenearlier this year, when when the
president of the United Statesannounced all of these tariffs
and all these things, and I allmy Canadian clients are like

(01:10:22):
calling me and emailing me,texting me, oh, we're gonna die,
we're gonna do this, we're gonnado that.
None of them have died.
It's been harder.
But every one of them, if youlook at their business in
October of 2025, where we areright now, versus April of 2025,
six months ago, yeah.
It's evolved and changed.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:41):
But it was interesting because I remember
in the the 2008 financialcrisis, um, you saw a
significant amount of fallouthappening on Wall Street, but it
took till mid-2009 forbusinesses to actually feel the
pain.
So is this a delayed response?

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:00):
I don't think so because what we're seeing, many
of my clients right now areseeing things start to pick up
again.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:06):
In the U.S.
Well, the US and Canada.
Well, the U.S.
is like all in on the US.
Like it is like hands acrossAmerica.
Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:15):
I wish that were I wish that were true.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:17):
You don't think it is?

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:17):
I I I it is for building.
Well, I don't even know if it'strue for building because I
can't tell you the number ofbuilders that are going that
have are still stuck in that inthat VUCA, right?
They're still stuck with thevolatility, uncertainty,
complexity, ambiguity because ohmy gosh, I don't know what's
going to happen.
One of my builders, uh good orbad, most of the most of the

(01:11:41):
skilled labor is it uh for themis is Hispanic.
Well, they've had people getpicked up by ICE in the US who
were born in the US, are U.S.
citizens, but because theirskins that way, they're getting
picked up.
Some of these guys are afraid togo to work.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:01):
Right?
And so I still think there'squite a bit of that going on.
But we're starting, it's reallybeen, and and April till August
was awful for builders in theUS.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:11):
Yeah, I would think like construction sites are this
big open air, like, you know,proving ground of of whether or
not eyes can do their thing.
Because everyone's outside.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:21):
Or you can walk into a job site.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:23):
And that's what's happened in the US.
Yeah.
That's what's happening in theUS.
So there's a lot of uh a lot offear, down, and worry right now
going on in the US around this.
And but we're starting to see itcalm down.
We're starting to see peoplereturn to I it's a I I hate the
term, but I don't have a betterone, a new normal.

(01:12:44):
Yeah.
Right?
We're starting to see peoplereturn to a new normal and
pent-up demand is starting totake place.
Right.
You know, we're starting to seemore construction uh starts,
right?
September was the first monthconstruction starts in the US
have been up.
Cool.
And I think that's what we'veseen with my Canadian clients is
the same exact thing.

(01:13:05):
Everything was horrible.
But as we've gotten into thefall, things are picking up.
They're not to where everybodywants them to be yet, but
there's that new normal, andwe're seeing things pick up.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:16):
Well, I mean, it is a it is a once there's no um
construction work, then you knowyou're in a real recession.
Right.
When when construction workersare out of work, as in there's
nothing, they don't know what todo now.
That's the signal.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:31):
But in and at least in the US, we're seeing the
union halls are still empty.
They're not the people thatthey're working.
They're not, they're not sittingaround the union.
I remember 2009, the union hallswere full, right?
Uh they those guys couldn't getwork.
And but right now they're stillempty.
They're still out working.
What does your hat say?

(01:13:52):
Uh it says you're on mute.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:53):
Oh, you're on.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:54):
Oh, thanks.
I do a lot of uh appreciatethat.
Yeah, I do a lot, I do a lot oftraining.
James, just so you know, I'm notlistening.
Yeah.
No, they I do a lot of trainingon Zoom.
Okay.
And I can't tell you how manytimes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:04):
Oh, you're on mute.
I got it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:07):
Um, and so I was at uh the HubSpot uh conference a
couple weeks ago in SanFrancisco, and uh Fathom was
given out these hats that saidyou're on mute.
I'm like, oh, I gotta have oneof those.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:17):
I like it.
Cool.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Okay, so um I think this hasbeen pretty, pretty awesome
talking about all this stuffwith you.
It's been fun.
Yeah, thank you very much.
So um, so how do people get ahold of you?
What's the deal?

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:29):
Well, so pretty simple.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:31):
How expensive are you?

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:34):
Uh what we always say incredibly expensive but
worth it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:37):
Uh to that is the answer that I would imagine you
would have a good communicationpsychological approach to that
question.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:43):
But uh so listen, we have a couple ways uh to engage.
The first one is if if if one ofyour listeners is on Instagram
and they want to learn more,yeah.
We have over 500 posts onInstagram of little sales tips,
snippets and snippets, 30seconds to 60 seconds.
Uh so on Instagram, it's justselling with Jeff.

(01:15:03):
Nice.
Okay.
Uh is the Instagram handle.
Okay.
If they want a little bit more,they uh you know, they can email
me uh with selling with Jeff atSandler.com.
Okay.
And uh happy to happy toschedule time to talk to them.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:18):
Cool.
And then LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:19):
Uh LinkedIn, Jeff Borovitz.
Borovitz.
B-O-R-O-V-E-I-T-Z.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:24):
Okay, cool.
Okay, well, that's cool.
This has been uh super good.
Uh enjoy your time in Victoria.
Looking forward to it.
When you see Paul, yes, sayhello for me.
I will.
Um, and uh yeah, it's this was apleasure.
This was cool.
This was fun.
Thanks so much for having me.
You're very welcome.
Thank you.

(01:15:51):
Thank you for listening.