How do you navigate the complex landscape of parenting adult children while fostering their independence? In this enlightening episode, we delve into the essential principles of navigating this transition with love, support, and a focus on boundaries. Our expert guest, a seasoned psychologist, offers invaluable strategies that help parents understand the dual roles of love and discipline when guiding their children into adulthood.
From discussing the varying challenges young adults face, especially those with developmental disabilities, to practical tips on creating a five-year plan together, each segment is designed to empower parents to foster emotional and social growth while allowing for independence. Discover how focusing on intentional parenting and recognizing cultural biases surrounding independence can significantly impact both your relationship and your child’s trajectory.
Join us on this journey of understanding how to let go while reinforcing the bond that sustains a nurturing family dynamic. We encourage you to reflect on your experiences and engage with our community—subscribe, share your thoughts, and leave a review to help us support families embarking on their parenting journey.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season.
Join Sarah Bradford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Go to sjchildsorg.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Hi and thanks for joining the SJ Child Show today.
I am really excited for ourguest today.
How many of you parents,parents of young children, you
know have thought, oh, what arewe going to do someday when you
know our children need to leave?
And parents with adult children, are you thinking when are our
(00:58):
kids ever going to leave, right?
And so here we have today,somebody wonderful to help
answer all of those questionsand especially the in-between,
and let us know some greatadvice on how to move forward
with some intentional parenting.
And I think that that's themost important part is that we
(01:19):
put our intentions intoeverything we do.
But it's a pleasure to meet you, dr Jack, and I don't want to.
You know, mess up your lastname.
I'm going to let you introduceyourself, but it's so great to
meet you.
Please introduce yourself andlet us know a little bit about
you.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Sure, I am a psychologist specializing in
working with parents at thelaunching stage of young
adulthood, so helping parentsnavigate that process
successfully.
And I have three.
They're no longer young adultsbut you know, at least two of
(01:59):
them are in the millennialgeneration and one in the Gen X,
and they're happily married andhave marketable jobs and all.
So I think they're pretty welllaunched at this point.
And some of my story goes backto issues with my father, some
estranged with my father, that Ihad to work through.
(02:21):
And then I actually did mydissertation work at the
University of Wisconsin ontrying to define and measure
healthy separation from parents.
So, I've got two perspectivesone coming from the young adult,
the adolescent side, of what itfeels like to be in a healthy
relationship with parents, andthen one more from my own parent
(02:43):
side.
What does that mean?
To be in a healthy relationshipand be able to facilitate this,
this launching process?
So I've been doing this forabout 50 years, so I'm old as
dirt.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Well, I think the wiser, the better and the more
experience and the more we canlearn from.
So thank you, thank you so muchfor the work you have done and
the parenting right, andsometimes I reflect back and
think how can it be 21 yearsthat I've been in this parenting
position and it's still goingon?
(03:20):
I have older one and twoyounger ones that are still at
home, 13 and 15.
And so this is a perfect timeto start thinking about it not
being so far off in the futureand what that could look like
and what kind of good planningskills we can put in.
But I think that and I'd loveyour opinion on this I think
(03:43):
that it starts far, far furtherback and as soon as you can,
probably at least for yourselfas a parent.
I'm finding maybe just becauseit's on child number three, but
I'm finding that the more Ienvision kind of what my
relationship might look likewith my youngest child later in
(04:05):
life, the more it drives me towant to create a different type
of relationship with her.
I find myself much moreconcerned about her social,
emotional wellness than I waswith, you know, the oldest one.
I was more concerned aboutgrades and discipline and things
(04:26):
and such.
And so it's this shift.
What is your approach and whatyou generally kind of guide
parents to?
How do you start that process?
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Well, I'll make one comment about how parenting.
There's a certain bias, I think, in our culture that you know,
once your kid reaches 18 or 21,they ought to be out of the
house, and that's the definitionof a launched young adult.
Well, that's not my definition.
(05:02):
Young adult Well, that's not mydefinition.
My definition is that theparents enable an adult child to
increase their self-sufficiencyand their independence while
retaining a caring relationshipor bond with the parents.
And it doesn't have anything todo with whether living at home
or not.
But our culture says well, ifhe's 23 and he's still at home,
(05:26):
something's wrong, or you know,then the alarm bells go off when
it's 26 or 27.
If you go to India and I can,you know, characterize this as a
cultural bias In India I was ona podcast with an Indian person
from India and he said you know, if you're 23, 24, and you're
(05:47):
living outside the home, there'ssomething wrong in India.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
It's just the opposite here.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
So I say our parenting role continues through
life, but we have to reallymake that shift of learning how
to both send the message of lovebut also the message of letting
go, and I think that startsvery young.
I talk about the holding thechild and letting go.
Holding and letting go andthat's constantly continues to
(06:17):
need to happen throughout thefamily life cycle, the
development of the child.
And if you just some parentswill say, okay, they're 18 or 18
now I'm going to just totallystep out and I've demonstrated
in my research that if you justgive autonomy alone, without
(06:38):
love, the results are not thatgood.
In fact, with the twopopulations I studied the
delinquent population, drugabusing population, had lots
more autonomy, but they didn'thave the love factor in there.
So that's why even the subtitleof my book, the parents launch
(07:02):
code loving and letting go ofour adult children.
So I really want to be surethat parents start with love,
unconditional love, no matterwhat, and that's the that's
foundational to being able tobuild the launch pad so these
kids can can successfully moveinto adulthood yeah, and I guess
(07:25):
you know it might be great todefine and I'm sure everybody
has their kind of their owndefinition possibly but what
types of mannerisms, shall wesay, should we give with
unconditional love?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Things like you know, forgiving our child or not
judging them, not shaming them,trying to connect more with them
?
What are some of those ideasthat you have about that?
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yes, I mean I really make a distinction.
And some people say, well, youcan't just give unconditional
love.
I think you can, and there's avery real distinction between
unconditional love andunconditional approval.
Unconditional love means, nomatter what, I love you as my
son and daughter.
(08:09):
That will not change.
Nothing can break that bond oflove that I feel for you.
That's very different thansaying I have a problem with
your behavior.
Your behavior is somethingthat's irresponsible, or I don't
think it's helpful to you, orit's antagonistic, and I think
you need to address that.
So that distinction is reallyreally important, need to
(08:32):
address that.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
So that distinction is really, really important.
Well, and I think that inoffering those types of
constructive criticism, thenthey you are offering love and
because you're only looking outfor their best interests, and
you know, yeah, they might notview it as that at the time, but
I agree with that that you arein once again having intent of
(08:56):
allowing this human to you know,develop in the way that's
conducive for their own successand wellbeing, and I think that
that's an important part ofearly parenting that has to be
learned.
Maybe, and hopefully, somethinglike this podcast will
definitely help give those toolstoo.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Sure.
Well, I always say no is not afour-letter word and sometimes
it can be the most loving thinga parent can do.
You know, and or say to a childyou know, if your toddler's
toddling to the street, you'regoing to say no, pick them up
and bring them back, you know,and that's the loving thing to
do.
It gets harder when you've gotan 18-year-old getting into a
(09:43):
car and maybe they've been usingalcohol or smoking weed or
something.
And now what do you do withthat weed or something?
And now what do you do withthat?
And in my opinion, no means youcall the police and say, hey,
you pull them over becausethat's a loving thing to do, so
they don't kill themselves orsomebody else.
So it's harder to say no whenthey're older because you're
(10:05):
trying to, you want them to maketheir own decisions in some
ways.
But you have to have values inthe home.
You have to have rules,guidelines that are kind of deal
breakers you can't bring drugsinto the house, you can't steal,
you know.
You can't damage property, youcan't threaten people.
I mean you can't let youngadults, teens, violate those
(10:30):
rules.
It doesn't help them becausesociety is not going to allow
them to do that.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So absolutely no, they're.
The boundaries are have to bekept and you have to have clear
consequences and discussionsabout those things I think that
are lining kind of theexpectations up for those things
is the best, because thenthere's a clear understanding of
(10:58):
, well, you already knew aheadof time that this was something
that was off the table.
So, uh, makes it a little biteasier for some accountability
in the end, and I wrote thisblog which has been pretty
popular on YouTube never evictyour child.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
You know Well when you go, when you read what I
have to say, it's a young adult.
A teen or young adult can say,can indicate in two ways they
don't want to live in the house.
One is to say I want out ofhere, help me move, I need to
move on in my life.
And the other is they disobeyand they don't abide by the
(11:42):
rules in the house.
So by their actions they'resaying they want to live in
another space, another place.
But I also tell parents place.
But I also tell parents, youknow, help them make that move,
be a partner to them.
You know, maybe you give themsome furniture, help them get
(12:02):
started, but not to make it as ahuge, angry kind of
confrontation Okay, you're notbuying by the rules, get out of
here.
You know, say listen, it lookslike you you don't want to live
here and under our rules and Iunderstand that maybe it's time
to be someplace where you canhave your own rules.
So we'll help you.
We'll help you move out andwe'll help you look for some
(12:24):
housing and maybe help you findroommates or something.
And we'll work with you to you,because you're telling us you
want to move on.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, I like that.
Offering some options to help.
I think that's a wonderful idea.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
It stays in.
You're staying in a positive,partnering way with the young
adult on their move intoadulthood.
You'd like it to go smoothlyand for them to say okay.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I'm time to leave.
It's time to leave now.
Let's lay out a plan, but itdoesn't always work.
Yeah, that's certainly true.
Sorry about the lag we might behaving in our internet there.
Um, it's really important to toobviously individualize.
You know what type of child,adult child, you know individual
, are you dealing with and we,you know kind of talked about
(13:19):
this.
So let's talk a little bitabout um, the uh, autistic
community, and how we can umwith the individuals who are
going to be ready and atwhatever point that means in
their 30s, whatever it doesn'tlike you said, that's not like a
(13:40):
time limit.
How do we and what kind ofsystems should we help put in
place for those individuals andthose parents?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Well, in my book I talk about four types of launch
challenges.
The one is more the classicfailure to launch the movie that
came out with Matthew Conaghyand is the couch potato just
taking advantage of the parents.
I like it here.
(14:10):
It's free food, get the freeWi-Fi and TV on.
Hey, it's time to move on.
It's time to get a job, go toschool, do something.
That's one group.
Now, they may have some, theremay be some anxiety and maybe
some depression going on, butI'd argue it's typically
(14:31):
somewhat related to theirfailure to move on in their
lives.
That that's a contributor.
At least that's one group.
The second group and this iswhere the autistic young adult
falls is the I would call it thekind of impaired group, where
there's something that'simpairing their process.
It could be learning disability, adhd, spectrum issues,
(14:56):
physical disabilities orwhatever.
So in some ways they're tryingto overcome those things.
The third group is what I callthe derailed launch problem, and
this is the person with seriousmental health issues where
they've got to be medicated,maybe even a facility, or it's
(15:17):
going to be hard, maybe on thestreet, but it's going to be
hard.
Or they have an addictionproblem, and I agree with this
group.
Until you deal with those two,they're not going to move
forward.
So they're kind of derailed.
Got to help them out.
And then the last one excuse me, last one is the estranged
(15:41):
young adult, where they have cutoff the relationship with the
parents, and to me that's stilla failure to launch because you
haven't retained a caring bondthat needs to be there.
So in that second group then,and across the board, I think
that every teen and young adultwants to be more independent.
(16:01):
They have an internal drive inthat direction.
So when you're dealing withsomeone that has some impairment
or limitation, it's importantto understand that they still
want to be as independent asthey can, and parents should
honor that and try to help themto be as independent as they can
(16:25):
, to kind of recognize that thatneed is there.
So I've got two young adultsthat I'm working with who are
autistic.
One of them has made greatprogress.
When I started living at homethey couldn't have eye contact
with me.
It was a lot of communicationproblems.
(16:47):
That young adult has now madeit all the way to being in an
apartment, have his own car anddriving to work you know Wow.
But I can tell you a littleinteresting part of that process
was him learning to drive andget his driver's license and his
parents would try to teach him.
(17:07):
But every time they get in thecar and said would you like to
drive, he could tell they werequite anxious about that and he
said no.
So he actually got a friendfrom church to teach him how to
drive, because the parent'sanxiety was so high that it
affected his anxiety and he wasin some ways bailing them out as
(17:29):
well as himself on that.
So it was a good decision tomake.
It's somebody else that isn'tquite so anxious about the
process.
So he's made good progress.
Now I have another young manhe's 25, 26, who has both a
physical disability and he'sautistic, and it's unclear how
(17:52):
far he's going to be able to goin terms of ultimately living on
his own.
And that's a.
You know, that's a decisionpeople parents need to make at
some point in time.
But the goal there is toincrease as much as possible his
independence at home.
And as he gets more and moreindependent at home cooks his
(18:14):
meal, does his laundry, cleanshis room he gets closer to being
able to be in an apartment onhis own.
So we don't just say, ok, waittill you move an apartment,
we'll teach you the independentliving skills.
You start to do that right away.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
But it may be at some point.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
I just it just can't happen.
It's too risky, the falls, theproblems that this, this young
man might have.
He may have to live at home.
But again back to that bias.
So he, so he lives at home andhe maybe gets some part time job
or some volunteer stuff and Ithink that that's okay.
I don't think parents should bekind of denigrating themselves
(18:59):
or their actions in those cases.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Yeah, and for our son we have that possibility that
it could be lifelong.
And we've thought about, do welook into something like ADU,
which is like a dwelling, anoutside dwelling and outside
attached dwelling uh, that wouldbe suitable for him to have his
own independent lifestyle butyet be on the same properties
(19:24):
that we could assist in thoselife skills.
So I think that there's someflexibility if you can make some
arrangements in those areas forfor those adults as well.
Um, but okay, I said thoseareas for for those adults as
well.
Um, but okay, I said we stillhave a few years to worry about
that hopefully, but yeah, I lovethat.
Um, one thing that I havedefinitely been um, kind of
(19:48):
embracing with my youngest issaying like I want you to go and
be happy and be independent andI want you to be able to come
back and to be happy coming backand visiting and wanting to
come back and doing these things.
So I want it to look differentthan it is in, you know, for
(20:11):
other situations, situations,and I think that maybe, um, in
having those conversations aswell, I hope that it's letting
her know the the importance ofthe intent I'm putting into it
and you know, I think it's agood uh conversation to have,
(20:33):
even when they are earlyteenagers, to let them know like
I really want you to leave thehouse and be out on your own and
and be independent, and so justyou know, how can I, maybe even
how can I help you?
How does that?
How does that look to you know,asking your teens what their
ideas of of moving out lookslike someday and maybe
(20:55):
cultivating those ideas withthem.
That just popped in my head.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
I don't think it's ever too early to start talking
about that, and particularly ifthey end up bringing it up, but
I think along the way, you canincrease their opportunities for
greater independence andgreater decision making.
I think there's a book I thinkit's called Raising Free Range
(21:25):
Children or something like that,which kind of takes the
position that we've coddled andmade decisions for our kids too
much and we need to let them gomore, let them be free range
more.
So I think, as much as you cangive them opportunities for
independent experiences andindependent decision making,
(21:48):
which I think will set the stagefor that leaving process then
Set the stage for that leavingprocess then, and let's talk
about your book and how thatcame about.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
What were the kind of the lead ups to that?
What made you decide, ok, thisis going to be the book I'm
going to write about and showyou.
Have it right there.
Let us take a look at that fora second and talk about that.
Here it is.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
I'm sorry I don't have my bookshelf in back of me.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
It's off to the right here, or I could have it
sitting there like a lot ofpeople do.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
But it's the Parents Launch Code Loving and Letting
Go of Our Adult Childrenavailable on Amazon Amazon.
So this is a kind of aculmination of my work, while
going way back into my childhoodand my dissertation.
But in the last 10 to 15 yearsI've been working a lot with
(22:46):
parents of young adults who havebeen struggling with helping
them get traction on theirprocess of moving toward greater
self-sufficiency andindependence.
So I started seeing that in myclinical work and then I did
some workshops in the evening.
But that wasn't.
I'm supposed to be semi-retiredI'm not sure my wife would
(23:09):
agree with that, but anyway Ididn't want to keep doing
workshops at night and that typeof thing.
So then I built the website andthen on the website I began to
develop this set of practices,which I call the launch code,
that I think parents need toapply or strengthen in order to
(23:33):
create the best launch pad forfacilitating that movement into
adulthood.
And I can go through thosebriefly if you want.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Oh yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
So there are foundational practices.
One of them is theunconditional love which I noted
earlier.
It's just no matter what,you're loved, you always have a
place in my heart.
You may not always have a placein my house, but you have a
place in my heart, okay.
The second practice is build acloser relationship to your
(24:08):
young adult or your late teen.
Now people would say, well, no,no, you don't want to do that,
you're trying to let go, youshould back away.
Well, what I say is you need tochange from a directing and
controlling to more of aconsulting and partnering with
them on their identitydevelopment and their
independence.
So how can I help you developwho you are and what you want to
(24:31):
be and what skills you have andtalents and strengths, and how
can I help you be moreindependent so you bring your
love in there in that supportiveway?
So those two are foundational.
And then there's two practicesthat I call healing practices.
The first one is apology,because I just find parents you
(24:51):
know and I work with parentsautistic kids years ago when I
was at a child guidance clinicand there's a lot of guilt that
parents feel at times.
Well, you know, maybe there'ssomething I did or maybe I'm not
doing enough or whatever.
So I think parents need to.
If there's something they feellike they did or didn't do that
(25:13):
they're still hurt, they'restill disappointed in themselves
or feel guilty about, they needto apologize to the young adult
.
And I encourage you writing itout and reading it to them,
because that reduces the guiltfor the parent as well as it
softens the potential forresentment to remain there in
(25:36):
terms of the young adult.
And then sometimes there's asecond step.
The parents then need toforgive themselves too.
Okay, I apologize Now.
Don't keep carrying it on.
You forgive yourself, andsometimes parents need to
forgive their kids too.
I just talked to the motherearlier and she said I hate my
kids and I said well, you betterread chapter four, because you
(25:58):
need to forgive your kids youknow for your sake because you
need that relationship with yourkids and if you're angry at
them, you need to get over thatand let go of that anger.
Then the fifth practice isbringing love and backbone
together.
Practice is bringing love andbackbone together and this is
really essential for the launch,because this is where the
(26:24):
parent needs to say you know,these are the rules here and
there are certain deal breakers.
You can't stay here anymore ifyou break these rules which I
just described earlier.
So it forces the young adult tostand up.
Now you always use the kind ofanalogy if the young adult's
leaning on you as a parent, well, you can back away, or they're
going to fall down, or you canpush them over the other way and
(26:47):
they're going to fall down.
But if you just stand up nowthey have to stand up.
So it's coming up and sayinghere's who I am, here's what my
rules are, here's my boundaries,you have to respect those.
So now they're forced torespect those and now they have
a chance to move on their own.
(27:07):
And the last practice is justit's kind of a grief stage, it's
letting go.
It's dealing with the sadnessof the young adult leaving home
and the dismemberment of thefamily.
It'll never be the same again,because you now have someone
living outside of the home too,and even if it's been a
(27:28):
contentious relationship,there's often a certain amount
of sadness and loss that parentshave to have to deal with there
.
But it's really important to dothe grieving and move on with
your life and not keep hangingon to the kids and and living
your life through your, throughyour kids.
So that's really powerful adviceyeah definitely so one thing
(27:53):
I'll tell you that I do that.
I think in the book I describethis and I think parents can do
this on their own is to workwith the young adult to have
them come up with a five-yearplan.
That's about as far out as youcan go with it.
18, 19, 20-something-year-olds,and where do they want to be
(28:14):
living?
What do they want to be doing?
Will they be living alone orwith somebody else?
And it's aspirational.
What would you like?
You know this is the goal.
And then, what are your talents, what are your skills?
What do you need to do in thenext six months to move toward
that five-year plan?
And what do you need to do inthe next three months?
(28:35):
What do you need to do in thenext three months?
What do you need to do in thenext two weeks to move toward
that?
So it's a way that begins to layout a plan, that is a vision of
how they're going to moveforward, and then the parents
can come in as partners on that.
We'll help you, we'll work withyou and the parents will say,
okay, we can support you in thisway.
Here's some things you're goingto have to step up on your own
(28:59):
and if you're didn't, bust yourdishes back from your room.
I said all these battles thenit's.
Then it feels like you'realways in this kind of
(29:20):
contentious relationship.
But once we get this five-yearvision and the parents and the
young adult can meet everycouple weeks or month and say
how are we doing on our plan, itreally shifts the relationship
in in a much more positivedirection.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
No, I love that.
I love that you saidpartnership and I think that
that's something that we shouldembrace and realize that we can
have with a relationship likethat with our kids, and that I
think it's important tofacilitate those types of
journeys with them as much as wecan.
I love that and your website.
(30:01):
I'm going to put it up hereParents letting gocom Tell us
what kind of resources parentsand adults can find on the
website.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Okay, well, there's a there are a number of resources
.
This book is described on thewebsite, as well as some earlier
books that I wrote that areshorter, that address each one
of these practices that I wentthrough.
So if you thought, well, I onlyneed this practice, you could
(30:34):
order one of these smaller andcheaper books if you wanted to.
So that's on there.
There's a section that hasinterview questions that you can
interview your young adult tipson these different practices,
(30:55):
and then there's a section witha couple videos that I've done.
There's a listing of differentpodcasts that I've done.
And then there's a whole area ofprobably close to 150 blogs
that I've written that reallyhave come from parents with whom
I have worked and the issuesthey brought up.
(31:16):
Well, how do you deal with this?
You've got a kid in the homewith a drug problem.
How do you deal with that?
Or how do you deal with a childin the home that lies and
doesn't tell the truth?
So if people have a specificissue, they could kind of flip
through those blogs and likelybe able to find how I have
addressed one of those issuesthat they might be having.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
So then there's a bibliography and then there's a
section on parent resources andresources for young adults.
You know websites and there's agood bit of resources like that
on there too, so Well, thank youso, so much for the work you're
doing and obviously you, likeyou said, have been doing it for
(31:59):
a long time now and have seensuccess in what works and
probably, what doesn't.
I think it was one of the mostimportant lessons Sure, sure,
absolutely.
Well, thank you so much, andany what's in the future for you
, what are your plans?
Any other things coming up?
Speaker 4 (32:22):
Well, I think one one thought I had was to maybe
create a workbook off of thebook that I could make available
, and then people could just goright through the practices
there.
You know how to assess this,how to lay out your, your
actions around that particularpractice, and so I may do that.
(32:42):
I don't know if my wife mayshoot me if I tell her I'm going
to do that.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
You're supposed to be retiring.
That's fantastic, oh my gosh.
It's been so nice to have youhere today and I thank you for
your time and and the work thatyou've put in and, obviously,
the um really uh service thatyou provide for families and
parents and in a hard process oftransitioning uh, in many ways,
for you know, like you said,life changing.
(33:15):
There's a process I didn't evenconsider having to go through.
So some really good things forme to be able to think about and
listen to again as I listenback to this.
So thank you so much for beinghere today.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Well, thank you for the resource that you offer to
this community of neurodiverseyoung adults, teens and parents.
I think it's just great to havethis available.
One thing with the Internet youcan get so many good resources
out there, so this is great thatyou're doing so.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Oh, thank you so much .
Yeah, it's a passion of oursand I really look forward to
just seeing how far I can takeit.
So, oh, thank you so much.
Yeah, it's a passion of oursand I really look forward to
just seeing how far I can takeit.
Really, we'll see, right?
Um, I would love to stay intouch and, uh, check in on you
and see, and, if that workbookdoes come out, give me a little
email and then we'll have youback down to check about it.
(34:14):
Thank you so much, and I'd loveto stay in touch.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Good yeah, me too, thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Thank you.
In the heart of the city she'sshining bright.
Oh yeah, stories of love andcourage.
All throughout the night, hervoice resonating An anthem for
all.
Through the trials and thetrials, she answers the call.
A mother and a fighter,breaking barriers and strife.
(34:54):
Love is her guide.
She'll never hide.
Thank you.
Followers gather like stars inthe night.
(35:16):
So bright, 44,000 voicessharing in the light.
She stands for family,advocates for more.
A movement of compassion.
Ways we'll soar Podcaststogether.
Symphony of support In life.
A change of report.
She's changing the world foryou with a heart that's fierce
(35:41):
and strong.
Empathy's a melody, a journeywe all belong to.
Her eyes, a vision clear.
Together we ride, sheddingfears.
In every heart, she plants theseed of understanding and love
for dearly me.
She's changing the world foryou With a heart that's fierce
(36:18):
and strong.
Empathies and melodies In ajourney we all belong.
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season.
Join Sarah Bradford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Go to sjchildsorg.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Hi and thanks for joining the SJ Child Show today.
I am really excited for ourguest today.
How many of you parents,parents of young children, you
know have thought, oh, what arewe going to do someday when you
know our children need to leave?
And parents with adult children, are you thinking when are our
(00:58):
kids ever going to leave, right?
And so here we have today,somebody wonderful to help
answer all of those questionsand especially the in-between,
and let us know some greatadvice on how to move forward
with some intentional parenting.
And I think that that's themost important part is that we
(01:19):
put our intentions intoeverything we do.
But it's a pleasure to meet you, dr Jack, and I don't want to.
You know, mess up your lastname.
I'm going to let you introduceyourself, but it's so great to
meet you.
Please introduce yourself andlet us know a little bit about
you.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Sure, I am a psychologist specializing in
working with parents at thelaunching stage of young
adulthood, so helping parentsnavigate that process
successfully.
And I have three.
They're no longer young adultsbut you know, at least two of
(01:59):
them are in the millennialgeneration and one in the Gen X,
and they're happily married andhave marketable jobs and all.
So I think they're pretty welllaunched at this point.
And some of my story goes backto issues with my father, some
estranged with my father, that Ihad to work through.
(02:21):
And then I actually did mydissertation work at the
University of Wisconsin ontrying to define and measure
healthy separation from parents.
So, I've got two perspectivesone coming from the young adult,
the adolescent side, of what itfeels like to be in a healthy
relationship with parents, andthen one more from my own parent
(02:43):
side.
What does that mean?
To be in a healthy relationshipand be able to facilitate this,
this launching process?
So I've been doing this forabout 50 years, so I'm old as
dirt.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Well, I think the wiser, the better and the more
experience and the more we canlearn from.
So thank you, thank you so muchfor the work you have done and
the parenting right, andsometimes I reflect back and
think how can it be 21 yearsthat I've been in this parenting
position and it's still goingon?
(03:20):
I have older one and twoyounger ones that are still at
home, 13 and 15.
And so this is a perfect timeto start thinking about it not
being so far off in the futureand what that could look like
and what kind of good planningskills we can put in.
But I think that and I'd loveyour opinion on this I think
(03:43):
that it starts far, far furtherback and as soon as you can,
probably at least for yourselfas a parent.
I'm finding maybe just becauseit's on child number three, but
I'm finding that the more Ienvision kind of what my
relationship might look likewith my youngest child later in
(04:05):
life, the more it drives me towant to create a different type
of relationship with her.
I find myself much moreconcerned about her social,
emotional wellness than I waswith, you know, the oldest one.
I was more concerned aboutgrades and discipline and things
(04:26):
and such.
And so it's this shift.
What is your approach and whatyou generally kind of guide
parents to?
How do you start that process?
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Well, I'll make one comment about how parenting.
There's a certain bias, I think, in our culture that you know,
once your kid reaches 18 or 21,they ought to be out of the
house, and that's the definitionof a launched young adult.
Well, that's not my definition.
(05:02):
Young adult Well, that's not mydefinition.
My definition is that theparents enable an adult child to
increase their self-sufficiencyand their independence while
retaining a caring relationshipor bond with the parents.
And it doesn't have anything todo with whether living at home
or not.
But our culture says well, ifhe's 23 and he's still at home,
(05:26):
something's wrong, or you know,then the alarm bells go off when
it's 26 or 27.
If you go to India and I can,you know, characterize this as a
cultural bias In India I was ona podcast with an Indian person
from India and he said you know, if you're 23, 24, and you're
(05:47):
living outside the home, there'ssomething wrong in India.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
It's just the opposite here.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
So I say our parenting role continues through
life, but we have to reallymake that shift of learning how
to both send the message of lovebut also the message of letting
go, and I think that startsvery young.
I talk about the holding thechild and letting go.
Holding and letting go andthat's constantly continues to
(06:17):
need to happen throughout thefamily life cycle, the
development of the child.
And if you just some parentswill say, okay, they're 18 or 18
now I'm going to just totallystep out and I've demonstrated
in my research that if you justgive autonomy alone, without
(06:38):
love, the results are not thatgood.
In fact, with the twopopulations I studied the
delinquent population, drugabusing population, had lots
more autonomy, but they didn'thave the love factor in there.
So that's why even the subtitleof my book, the parents launch
(07:02):
code loving and letting go ofour adult children.
So I really want to be surethat parents start with love,
unconditional love, no matterwhat, and that's the that's
foundational to being able tobuild the launch pad so these
kids can can successfully moveinto adulthood yeah, and I guess
(07:25):
you know it might be great todefine and I'm sure everybody
has their kind of their owndefinition possibly but what
types of mannerisms, shall wesay, should we give with
unconditional love?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Things like you know, forgiving our child or not
judging them, not shaming them,trying to connect more with them
?
What are some of those ideasthat you have about that?
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yes, I mean I really make a distinction.
And some people say, well, youcan't just give unconditional
love.
I think you can, and there's avery real distinction between
unconditional love andunconditional approval.
Unconditional love means, nomatter what, I love you as my
son and daughter.
(08:09):
That will not change.
Nothing can break that bond oflove that I feel for you.
That's very different thansaying I have a problem with
your behavior.
Your behavior is somethingthat's irresponsible, or I don't
think it's helpful to you, orit's antagonistic, and I think
you need to address that.
So that distinction is reallyreally important, need to
(08:32):
address that.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
So that distinction is really, really important.
Well, and I think that inoffering those types of
constructive criticism, thenthey you are offering love and
because you're only looking outfor their best interests, and
you know, yeah, they might notview it as that at the time, but
I agree with that that you arein once again having intent of
(08:56):
allowing this human to you know,develop in the way that's
conducive for their own successand wellbeing, and I think that
that's an important part ofearly parenting that has to be
learned.
Maybe, and hopefully, somethinglike this podcast will
definitely help give those toolstoo.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Sure.
Well, I always say no is not afour-letter word and sometimes
it can be the most loving thinga parent can do.
You know, and or say to a childyou know, if your toddler's
toddling to the street, you'regoing to say no, pick them up
and bring them back, you know,and that's the loving thing to
do.
It gets harder when you've gotan 18-year-old getting into a
(09:43):
car and maybe they've been usingalcohol or smoking weed or
something.
And now what do you do withthat weed or something?
And now what do you do withthat?
And in my opinion, no means youcall the police and say, hey,
you pull them over becausethat's a loving thing to do, so
they don't kill themselves orsomebody else.
So it's harder to say no whenthey're older because you're
(10:05):
trying to, you want them to maketheir own decisions in some
ways.
But you have to have values inthe home.
You have to have rules,guidelines that are kind of deal
breakers you can't bring drugsinto the house, you can't steal,
you know.
You can't damage property, youcan't threaten people.
I mean you can't let youngadults, teens, violate those
(10:30):
rules.
It doesn't help them becausesociety is not going to allow
them to do that.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So absolutely no, they're.
The boundaries are have to bekept and you have to have clear
consequences and discussionsabout those things I think that
are lining kind of theexpectations up for those things
is the best, because thenthere's a clear understanding of
(10:58):
, well, you already knew aheadof time that this was something
that was off the table.
So, uh, makes it a little biteasier for some accountability
in the end, and I wrote thisblog which has been pretty
popular on YouTube never evictyour child.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
You know Well when you go, when you read what I
have to say, it's a young adult.
A teen or young adult can say,can indicate in two ways they
don't want to live in the house.
One is to say I want out ofhere, help me move, I need to
move on in my life.
And the other is they disobeyand they don't abide by the
(11:42):
rules in the house.
So by their actions they'resaying they want to live in
another space, another place.
But I also tell parents place.
But I also tell parents, youknow, help them make that move,
be a partner to them.
You know, maybe you give themsome furniture, help them get
(12:02):
started, but not to make it as ahuge, angry kind of
confrontation Okay, you're notbuying by the rules, get out of
here.
You know, say listen, it lookslike you you don't want to live
here and under our rules and Iunderstand that maybe it's time
to be someplace where you canhave your own rules.
So we'll help you.
We'll help you move out andwe'll help you look for some
(12:24):
housing and maybe help you findroommates or something.
And we'll work with you to you,because you're telling us you
want to move on.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, I like that.
Offering some options to help.
I think that's a wonderful idea.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
It stays in.
You're staying in a positive,partnering way with the young
adult on their move intoadulthood.
You'd like it to go smoothlyand for them to say okay.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I'm time to leave.
It's time to leave now.
Let's lay out a plan, but itdoesn't always work.
Yeah, that's certainly true.
Sorry about the lag we might behaving in our internet there.
Um, it's really important to toobviously individualize.
You know what type of child,adult child, you know individual
, are you dealing with and we,you know kind of talked about
(13:19):
this.
So let's talk a little bitabout um, the uh, autistic
community, and how we can umwith the individuals who are
going to be ready and atwhatever point that means in
their 30s, whatever it doesn'tlike you said, that's not like a
(13:40):
time limit.
How do we and what kind ofsystems should we help put in
place for those individuals andthose parents?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Well, in my book I talk about four types of launch
challenges.
The one is more the classicfailure to launch the movie that
came out with Matthew Conaghyand is the couch potato just
taking advantage of the parents.
I like it here.
(14:10):
It's free food, get the freeWi-Fi and TV on.
Hey, it's time to move on.
It's time to get a job, go toschool, do something.
That's one group.
Now, they may have some, theremay be some anxiety and maybe
some depression going on, butI'd argue it's typically
(14:31):
somewhat related to theirfailure to move on in their
lives.
That that's a contributor.
At least that's one group.
The second group and this iswhere the autistic young adult
falls is the I would call it thekind of impaired group, where
there's something that'simpairing their process.
It could be learning disability, adhd, spectrum issues,
(14:56):
physical disabilities orwhatever.
So in some ways they're tryingto overcome those things.
The third group is what I callthe derailed launch problem, and
this is the person with seriousmental health issues where
they've got to be medicated,maybe even a facility, or it's
(15:17):
going to be hard, maybe on thestreet, but it's going to be
hard.
Or they have an addictionproblem, and I agree with this
group.
Until you deal with those two,they're not going to move
forward.
So they're kind of derailed.
Got to help them out.
And then the last one excuse me, last one is the estranged
(15:41):
young adult, where they have cutoff the relationship with the
parents, and to me that's stilla failure to launch because you
haven't retained a caring bondthat needs to be there.
So in that second group then,and across the board, I think
that every teen and young adultwants to be more independent.
(16:01):
They have an internal drive inthat direction.
So when you're dealing withsomeone that has some impairment
or limitation, it's importantto understand that they still
want to be as independent asthey can, and parents should
honor that and try to help themto be as independent as they can
(16:25):
, to kind of recognize that thatneed is there.
So I've got two young adultsthat I'm working with who are
autistic.
One of them has made greatprogress.
When I started living at homethey couldn't have eye contact
with me.
It was a lot of communicationproblems.
(16:47):
That young adult has now madeit all the way to being in an
apartment, have his own car anddriving to work you know Wow.
But I can tell you a littleinteresting part of that process
was him learning to drive andget his driver's license and his
parents would try to teach him.
(17:07):
But every time they get in thecar and said would you like to
drive, he could tell they werequite anxious about that and he
said no.
So he actually got a friendfrom church to teach him how to
drive, because the parent'sanxiety was so high that it
affected his anxiety and he wasin some ways bailing them out as
(17:29):
well as himself on that.
So it was a good decision tomake.
It's somebody else that isn'tquite so anxious about the
process.
So he's made good progress.
Now I have another young manhe's 25, 26, who has both a
physical disability and he'sautistic, and it's unclear how
(17:52):
far he's going to be able to goin terms of ultimately living on
his own.
And that's a.
You know, that's a decisionpeople parents need to make at
some point in time.
But the goal there is toincrease as much as possible his
independence at home.
And as he gets more and moreindependent at home cooks his
(18:14):
meal, does his laundry, cleanshis room he gets closer to being
able to be in an apartment onhis own.
So we don't just say, ok, waittill you move an apartment,
we'll teach you the independentliving skills.
You start to do that right away.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
But it may be at some point.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
I just it just can't happen.
It's too risky, the falls, theproblems that this, this young
man might have.
He may have to live at home.
But again back to that bias.
So he, so he lives at home andhe maybe gets some part time job
or some volunteer stuff and Ithink that that's okay.
I don't think parents should bekind of denigrating themselves
(18:59):
or their actions in those cases.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Yeah, and for our son we have that possibility that
it could be lifelong.
And we've thought about, do welook into something like ADU,
which is like a dwelling, anoutside dwelling and outside
attached dwelling uh, that wouldbe suitable for him to have his
own independent lifestyle butyet be on the same properties
(19:24):
that we could assist in thoselife skills.
So I think that there's someflexibility if you can make some
arrangements in those areas forfor those adults as well.
Um, but okay, I said thoseareas for for those adults as
well.
Um, but okay, I said we stillhave a few years to worry about
that hopefully, but yeah, I lovethat.
Um, one thing that I havedefinitely been um, kind of
(19:48):
embracing with my youngest issaying like I want you to go and
be happy and be independent andI want you to be able to come
back and to be happy coming backand visiting and wanting to
come back and doing these things.
So I want it to look differentthan it is in, you know, for
(20:11):
other situations, situations,and I think that maybe, um, in
having those conversations aswell, I hope that it's letting
her know the the importance ofthe intent I'm putting into it
and you know, I think it's agood uh conversation to have,
(20:33):
even when they are earlyteenagers, to let them know like
I really want you to leave thehouse and be out on your own and
and be independent, and so justyou know, how can I, maybe even
how can I help you?
How does that?
How does that look to you know,asking your teens what their
ideas of of moving out lookslike someday and maybe
(20:55):
cultivating those ideas withthem.
That just popped in my head.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
I don't think it's ever too early to start talking
about that, and particularly ifthey end up bringing it up, but
I think along the way, you canincrease their opportunities for
greater independence andgreater decision making.
I think there's a book I thinkit's called Raising Free Range
(21:25):
Children or something like that,which kind of takes the
position that we've coddled andmade decisions for our kids too
much and we need to let them gomore, let them be free range
more.
So I think, as much as you cangive them opportunities for
independent experiences andindependent decision making,
(21:48):
which I think will set the stagefor that leaving process then
Set the stage for that leavingprocess then, and let's talk
about your book and how thatcame about.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
What were the kind of the lead ups to that?
What made you decide, ok, thisis going to be the book I'm
going to write about and showyou.
Have it right there.
Let us take a look at that fora second and talk about that.
Here it is.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
I'm sorry I don't have my bookshelf in back of me.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
It's off to the right here, or I could have it
sitting there like a lot ofpeople do.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
But it's the Parents Launch Code Loving and Letting
Go of Our Adult Childrenavailable on Amazon Amazon.
So this is a kind of aculmination of my work, while
going way back into my childhoodand my dissertation.
But in the last 10 to 15 yearsI've been working a lot with
(22:46):
parents of young adults who havebeen struggling with helping
them get traction on theirprocess of moving toward greater
self-sufficiency andindependence.
So I started seeing that in myclinical work and then I did
some workshops in the evening.
But that wasn't.
I'm supposed to be semi-retiredI'm not sure my wife would
(23:09):
agree with that, but anyway Ididn't want to keep doing
workshops at night and that typeof thing.
So then I built the website andthen on the website I began to
develop this set of practices,which I call the launch code,
that I think parents need toapply or strengthen in order to
(23:33):
create the best launch pad forfacilitating that movement into
adulthood.
And I can go through thosebriefly if you want.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Oh yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
So there are foundational practices.
One of them is theunconditional love which I noted
earlier.
It's just no matter what,you're loved, you always have a
place in my heart.
You may not always have a placein my house, but you have a
place in my heart, okay.
The second practice is build acloser relationship to your
(24:08):
young adult or your late teen.
Now people would say, well, no,no, you don't want to do that,
you're trying to let go, youshould back away.
Well, what I say is you need tochange from a directing and
controlling to more of aconsulting and partnering with
them on their identitydevelopment and their
independence.
So how can I help you developwho you are and what you want to
(24:31):
be and what skills you have andtalents and strengths, and how
can I help you be moreindependent so you bring your
love in there in that supportiveway?
So those two are foundational.
And then there's two practicesthat I call healing practices.
The first one is apology,because I just find parents you
(24:51):
know and I work with parentsautistic kids years ago when I
was at a child guidance clinicand there's a lot of guilt that
parents feel at times.
Well, you know, maybe there'ssomething I did or maybe I'm not
doing enough or whatever.
So I think parents need to.
If there's something they feellike they did or didn't do that
(25:13):
they're still hurt, they'restill disappointed in themselves
or feel guilty about, they needto apologize to the young adult
.
And I encourage you writing itout and reading it to them,
because that reduces the guiltfor the parent as well as it
softens the potential forresentment to remain there in
(25:36):
terms of the young adult.
And then sometimes there's asecond step.
The parents then need toforgive themselves too.
Okay, I apologize Now.
Don't keep carrying it on.
You forgive yourself, andsometimes parents need to
forgive their kids too.
I just talked to the motherearlier and she said I hate my
kids and I said well, you betterread chapter four, because you
(25:58):
need to forgive your kids youknow for your sake because you
need that relationship with yourkids and if you're angry at
them, you need to get over thatand let go of that anger.
Then the fifth practice isbringing love and backbone
together.
Practice is bringing love andbackbone together and this is
really essential for the launch,because this is where the
(26:24):
parent needs to say you know,these are the rules here and
there are certain deal breakers.
You can't stay here anymore ifyou break these rules which I
just described earlier.
So it forces the young adult tostand up.
Now you always use the kind ofanalogy if the young adult's
leaning on you as a parent, well, you can back away, or they're
going to fall down, or you canpush them over the other way and
(26:47):
they're going to fall down.
But if you just stand up nowthey have to stand up.
So it's coming up and sayinghere's who I am, here's what my
rules are, here's my boundaries,you have to respect those.
So now they're forced torespect those and now they have
a chance to move on their own.
(27:07):
And the last practice is justit's kind of a grief stage, it's
letting go.
It's dealing with the sadnessof the young adult leaving home
and the dismemberment of thefamily.
It'll never be the same again,because you now have someone
living outside of the home too,and even if it's been a
(27:28):
contentious relationship,there's often a certain amount
of sadness and loss that parentshave to have to deal with there
.
But it's really important to dothe grieving and move on with
your life and not keep hangingon to the kids and and living
your life through your, throughyour kids.
So that's really powerful adviceyeah definitely so one thing
(27:53):
I'll tell you that I do that.
I think in the book I describethis and I think parents can do
this on their own is to workwith the young adult to have
them come up with a five-yearplan.
That's about as far out as youcan go with it.
18, 19, 20-something-year-olds,and where do they want to be
(28:14):
living?
What do they want to be doing?
Will they be living alone orwith somebody else?
And it's aspirational.
What would you like?
You know this is the goal.
And then, what are your talents, what are your skills?
What do you need to do in thenext six months to move toward
that five-year plan?
And what do you need to do inthe next three months?
(28:35):
What do you need to do in thenext three months?
What do you need to do in thenext two weeks to move toward
that?
So it's a way that begins to layout a plan, that is a vision of
how they're going to moveforward, and then the parents
can come in as partners on that.
We'll help you, we'll work withyou and the parents will say,
okay, we can support you in thisway.
Here's some things you're goingto have to step up on your own
(28:59):
and if you're didn't, bust yourdishes back from your room.
I said all these battles thenit's.
Then it feels like you'realways in this kind of
(29:20):
contentious relationship.
But once we get this five-yearvision and the parents and the
young adult can meet everycouple weeks or month and say
how are we doing on our plan, itreally shifts the relationship
in in a much more positivedirection.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
No, I love that.
I love that you saidpartnership and I think that
that's something that we shouldembrace and realize that we can
have with a relationship likethat with our kids, and that I
think it's important tofacilitate those types of
journeys with them as much as wecan.
I love that and your website.
(30:01):
I'm going to put it up hereParents letting gocom Tell us
what kind of resources parentsand adults can find on the
website.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Okay, well, there's a there are a number of resources
.
This book is described on thewebsite, as well as some earlier
books that I wrote that areshorter, that address each one
of these practices that I wentthrough.
So if you thought, well, I onlyneed this practice, you could
(30:34):
order one of these smaller andcheaper books if you wanted to.
So that's on there.
There's a section that hasinterview questions that you can
interview your young adult tipson these different practices,
(30:55):
and then there's a section witha couple videos that I've done.
There's a listing of differentpodcasts that I've done.
And then there's a whole area ofprobably close to 150 blogs
that I've written that reallyhave come from parents with whom
I have worked and the issuesthey brought up.
(31:16):
Well, how do you deal with this?
You've got a kid in the homewith a drug problem.
How do you deal with that?
Or how do you deal with a childin the home that lies and
doesn't tell the truth?
So if people have a specificissue, they could kind of flip
through those blogs and likelybe able to find how I have
addressed one of those issuesthat they might be having.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
So then there's a bibliography and then there's a
section on parent resources andresources for young adults.
You know websites and there's agood bit of resources like that
on there too, so Well, thank youso, so much for the work you're
doing and obviously you, likeyou said, have been doing it for
(31:59):
a long time now and have seensuccess in what works and
probably, what doesn't.
I think it was one of the mostimportant lessons Sure, sure,
absolutely.
Well, thank you so much, andany what's in the future for you
, what are your plans?
Any other things coming up?
Speaker 4 (32:22):
Well, I think one one thought I had was to maybe
create a workbook off of thebook that I could make available
, and then people could just goright through the practices
there.
You know how to assess this,how to lay out your, your
actions around that particularpractice, and so I may do that.
(32:42):
I don't know if my wife mayshoot me if I tell her I'm going
to do that.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
You're supposed to be retiring.
That's fantastic, oh my gosh.
It's been so nice to have youhere today and I thank you for
your time and and the work thatyou've put in and, obviously,
the um really uh service thatyou provide for families and
parents and in a hard process oftransitioning uh, in many ways,
for you know, like you said,life changing.
(33:15):
There's a process I didn't evenconsider having to go through.
So some really good things forme to be able to think about and
listen to again as I listenback to this.
So thank you so much for beinghere today.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Well, thank you for the resource that you offer to
this community of neurodiverseyoung adults, teens and parents.
I think it's just great to havethis available.
One thing with the Internet youcan get so many good resources
out there, so this is great thatyou're doing so.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Oh, thank you so much .
Yeah, it's a passion of oursand I really look forward to
just seeing how far I can takeit.
So, oh, thank you so much.
Yeah, it's a passion of oursand I really look forward to
just seeing how far I can takeit.
Really, we'll see, right?
Um, I would love to stay intouch and, uh, check in on you
and see, and, if that workbookdoes come out, give me a little
email and then we'll have youback down to check about it.
(34:14):
Thank you so much, and I'd loveto stay in touch.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Good yeah, me too, thank you.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Thank you.
In the heart of the city she'sshining bright.
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All throughout the night, hervoice resonating An anthem for
all.
Through the trials and thetrials, she answers the call.
A mother and a fighter,breaking barriers and strife.
(34:54):
Love is her guide.
She'll never hide.
Thank you.
Followers gather like stars inthe night.
(35:16):
So bright, 44,000 voicessharing in the light.
She stands for family,advocates for more.
A movement of compassion.
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Her eyes, a vision clear.
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In every heart, she plants theseed of understanding and love
for dearly me.
She's changing the world foryou With a heart that's fierce
(36:18):
and strong.
Empathies and melodies In ajourney we all belong.
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