June 17, 2025 • 28 mins
What happens when you're passionate about cooking but can't see the ingredients? For Debra, founder of The Blind Kitchen, vision loss became the catalyst for culinary innovation rather than limitation.
Debra's story begins unexpectedly – she wasn't a natural cook, growing up as one of twelve children with limited kitchen experience. When retinitis pigmentosa claimed most of her vision in her fifties, she made a remarkable decision: instead of abandoning cooking, she enrolled in culinary school as their first legally blind student. There, she developed adaptive techniques that have since transformed kitchen accessibility.
The Blind Kitchen now offers approximately 100 specialized tools that make cooking safer and more approachable for people with vision impairments. Remarkably, about 90% weren't originally designed for the visually impaired but work perfectly with slight adaptations. From cut-resistant gloves that prevent injuries while grating or chopping to simple bump dots that create tactile markers on stove dials, these solutions bridge the gap between culinary arts and accessibility.
What makes Debra's approach revolutionary is her focus on practical, affordable solutions. A rubber band around a conditioner bottle distinguishes it from shampoo. Specialized whipped cream makers allow children to participate safely. These techniques restore kitchen independence for older adults who've lost vision due to conditions like diabetes or glaucoma, while opening culinary possibilities for those who never thought cooking was within their reach.
The Blind Kitchen's website exemplifies digital accessibility with clean design, audio-described videos, and comprehensive resources. As Debra beautifully puts it, "Food is a bridge. We all have to eat. That's something we have in common, regardless of our ability or disability." Her work reminds us that cooking isn't just about nourishment – it's about identity, connection, and the universal joy of creating something delicious.
Explore The Blind Kitchen at theblindkitchen.com and discover how adaptive tools and techniques are transforming lives one recipe at a time. Want to make your own spaces more accessible? Start by considering how simple modifications could make a world of difference for everyone who encounters them.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season.
Join Sarah Brafford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Go to sjchildsorg.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Hi and thanks for joining the SJ Child show today.
The wonderful amount of gueststhat we can, you know, gather
information from and reallylearn how to accommodate a wide
variety of viewers, listenersand as well as our friends over
in the Water Wellness Center.
Thank you for your sponsorearlier, you know, in the month.
We want to give them a shoutout.
(01:11):
So thank you so much, debra,for being here today, through
all of our difficulties, and tothose of you who might be
watching this on the YouTubechannel yes, it's going to look
a little bit different becausewe're using Zoom instead of our
normal StreamYard, but anyways,it's going to be a wonderful
conversation and I'm reallylooking forward to the value you
(01:32):
guys are going to find fromthis.
Debra, thanks so much for beinghere.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and what brought you
here today.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
No, thank you for having me.
Yes, I am the executive chefand founder of the Blind Kitchen
and I do happen to be blind.
I have retinitis pigmentosa andI was the only blind student in
culinary school, so I had tosolve a lot of problems and
that's what the Blind Kitchen isof problems and that's what the
(02:06):
blind kitchen is.
It's a.
It was my answers to theproblems and my now sharing of
that information with otherpeople with vision loss that
want to cook.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Wow, that's amazing.
You basically went in andcreated a template for those who
you know love to cook and wantto are more interested, but
might be afraid or or not surehow to start.
If that's you know somethingthat you come across, that's
really fascinating.
Tell us about your, I guess,love of cooking, because
(02:36):
obviously, what sent you toculinary school?
Why did you start there?
Speaker 4 (02:41):
You know, I did not love to cook and I was not a
good cook.
I was a tomboy growing up, oneof 12 kids.
So we, the seven girls, didn'tget much time in front of the
stove with mom.
But even as an adult I cookedfrom cans and boxes because that
was really the only way I knewhow and I wasn't judging myself,
that's, I thought all peopledid.
(03:01):
But I have taught adults in thepast, and when I was at the
Oregon Commission for the Blind,I lost the major portion of my
vision in my early 50s, and so Istill wanted to work and I was
under doing a meal prep classwith my dear friend now.
She was my teacher at the timeand I thought I'm having fun, I
(03:24):
would like to teach cooking,maybe, let me think.
And then that light bulb wentoff because I thought you don't
know how to cook and you don'tknow how to teach cooking, so
what in the world are you doing?
So that's what sparked the ideafor culinary school, because
the best place to learn, toteach cooking and learn cooking,
is at a cooking school, and itwas a wonderful experience.
(03:46):
I don't regret it one bit.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Oh, I love that and I love to cook, so I'm coming
from that other.
I'm always have my I.
My mom was don't be listening,mom.
My mom was no dad, though he hewas a spectacular cook.
So and and he.
They were divorced, so I livedwith him, you know.
So we had that one on one wherewe did everything together in
(04:11):
the cooking and stuff.
So I really took a lot of whathe did and share it with my
family.
And things more accessible,especially, you know, for our
family who are all autistic,especially our son who has
profound autism, finding ways tocreate number one meals that he
(04:37):
won't eat anyway, you know,items, food items.
But also how do we teach himhow to do some of these things
and the skills that you need tofollow through, and so I think
that the idea of just having alltypes of accessibility for
cooking is just brilliant.
(04:59):
What is like a major step, that, a tip that you give to start
kicking.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Okay, so I first of all, a lot of the time I have
two different groups.
I've got people like your sonwho have difficulties getting
into the kitchen, who might havesome challenges.
Mine, of course, focused mainlyon vision loss, but we have
about 100 tools now in the blindkitchen, all adaptive, all
geared towards vision loss, butabout 90% of them are not made
(05:31):
for people with vision loss.
So, for example, we have athing called a cut glove and I
have done many, manydemonstrations where I put the
cut glove on my hand typicallythin you can't read Braille
through it or anything like that, but it's relatively thin and I
put my palm of my hand, palmside up and I run a very sharp
knife back and forth across itand it does not cut through,
(05:54):
it's cut resistant.
It's used level five, used incommercial kitchens.
So that's good for anybody,especially if you're grating
food.
I don't know of any cooks thathave not left their knuckle skin
with a box grater, becausethey're weird, they're angled,
they've got different blades anddifferent number of blades.
(06:15):
So I always use that glove whenI'm grating, because you just
don't know when you're going tocome in contact with it and when
you do.
I'm just going to stop when Ifeel unexpected contact.
If I hadn't been wearing theglove it would have been too
late.
My skin would already be in themiddle.
Extra flavor, extra protein, Iguess, but it's so.
Those are the kind of tools thatwe have so they can be used.
(06:37):
So children a lot of parentswant their children to help and
that allows them to like dograding.
That's a simple one.
Even if you're very young youcan do that, and we have size
extra small gloves.
But the other population wehave are older adults, older
adults who already know diabetesrelated diseases, advanced
glaucoma.
(06:57):
They don't know how to get inthe kitchen without cutting
themselves, so they lose a hugepart of their identity.
And so that is the other groupof people that we meet are
(07:19):
people that don't know becauseof whatever disability they have
and I don't address alldisabilities, but mine certainly
can apply to quite a few acrossthe board to help them get back
into the kitchen and be able tocook again.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Oh, I love that.
I think that's a fascinatingidea.
One idea I had, you know, thecome on brain, simon Munjambar,
that's his name.
He's a.
He's a judge for one of thecooking shows and I had
interviewed him once and we weretalking about how could you
(07:56):
make your cooking um show moreaccessible.
You know, and we had come upwith on, you know, for
especially children and thingsthey could see the process that
was happening and the boilingwater and that kind of kind of
(08:19):
get the idea of what that was.
And I just thought, oh gosh,these are, these are such great
ideas to do.
What should a person do tomaybe get their kitchen ready?
Like, how do you get yourkitchen ready if you are going
to go?
You know you're interested indoing this but you might be,
(08:39):
like you said, going through anytype of vision impairment,
disability.
How do you get your kitchenready?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
So depending on the disability there will be
different answers for it.
I can speak to vision loss,things like knobs on your stove
if they don't click where youcan count the clicks, a lot of
them don't.
A lot of them just kind offreely rotate.
They have little things calledbump dots which are little
tactile bumps.
They're literally like a halfof a circle with a strong
(09:10):
adhesive on the other side andyou can, if you can, either mark
the tip of the dial or a lot oftimes you can feel that it
comes to a point, there's aspecific feel, and then put a
bump dot on the stove itself at300, 350, and 400.
Now you just line up the tip ofthat dial with the first,
(09:30):
second or third bump dot, ormaybe halfway in between if you
want 375.
The first, second or third bumpdot or maybe halfway in between
if you want 375.
Very inexpensive and if you'rerenting and now you want to move
out, it can be removedinvisibly.
But the other good thing is youcan use for children that can
see.
You could use high contrast,certain colors.
(09:51):
You can say the red one is forthis or the yellow one.
But most people don't start withthe stovetop for cooking with
kids.
You might want to do the oven,and then there are of gloves to
keep your hands safe and neverstick your hands in the oven.
Just pull the rack out to you.
I mean, there are so manydifferent ways to be able to
cook safely.
And we have some stuff for kidstoo, that, like we have what we
(10:13):
call an aerator and you put ina half a cup of heavy whipping
cream, a tablespoon ofconfectioner's sugar, a little
bit of vanilla, and then it getsclosed up in the tube and the
kid just pumps up and down.
So no mess, it's all enclosedin the tube and they don't have
to open it because as the yeah,it gets thicker, as the air gets
incorporated and into the fatit gets harder and harder to
(10:36):
push.
So there's quite a few thingsthat you can.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
A frosting maker.
It sounds like Like a.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
What A frosting maker it sounds like yeah, a whipped
cream maker, yeah, that soundsdelicious Wow.
It's a wonderful little tool.
Oh how fun.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
And you know, when they're little there's so much
fun to be had when, if they'reinterested in doing that, I
remember my little one wantingto do you know it was kind of
funny because she was like I'mgoing to go onto the chef, you
know kids chef thing.
But she didn't actually like togo into the kitchen and make
the foods.
She didn't really like thecompetition.
(11:11):
So I remember that being on oneof her little like vision.
We did like a vision boards,you know, for the future it was
going to be on the chef's, youknow junior chef, kid bakers or
something?
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Love that yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
I think that getting anybody excited about what they
can do for themselves forcooking because, you know, for
my mom, right now especially,she is just widowed and I think
that I'm trying to say, hey,find some new recipes that
you've never done before,instead of her just feeling kind
(11:51):
of, like you said, she has tojust eat out of a box or
something, because it's just her, and I'm like, no, let's use
this time wisely to reallyinvest in all of the things you
wanted to do, especially tryingthose new recipes and things
like that, and really, like youknow, because she likes the
kitchen and I think it's good toencourage, encourage.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
I agree, yeah, and food is a bridge.
Food is a bridge.
We all have to eat.
That's something we have incommon, regardless of our
ability or disability orwhatever.
We all have to eat and that'swhere stories and sharing and
history come together.
Just being in the same roomcelebrating events and stuff
(12:36):
like that, I have a goodindustry to be in because it
makes people happy.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Isn't that the truth?
And do you do in-person classesthere?
Well, I'm not even sure whereyou're at in the world anyways.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
I am in Portland, oregon, the business is oh boy.
Next time you're here, comevisit.
I spent about 10 years there,so I yeah, I'm on a floating
home on the Columbia river.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
No, kidding, it's very cool.
I'm coming down.
Sorry Shutting down this now,starting to drive this afternoon
?
No, I love that.
Wow, wow.
What a lucky life.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
That's amazing.
It is, it is, but I lost mytrain of thought.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I know I got so excited, sorry about that.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
We're all good.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Where?
Oh, I had asked if you had, ifyou did physical classes there
yeah, I do.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
I do workshops where I I go.
I've traveled out of state manytimes and, just like a group of
eight people, depends on iftheir age, their experience with
cooking, yeah, but there are alot of agencies out there that
are interested in exposingpeople to the possibility of
returning to the kitchen orperhaps getting in there for the
(13:55):
first time.
But so, yeah, I do workshops inpublic speaking and everything
else is online now.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
And how did the culinary school accommodate and
what did they learn, do youthink from your experience in
moving forward for otherstudents?
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Well, I went to McCloskey Culinary Institute in
Vancouver, washington, and thechefs could not have been any
better.
They had to treat me like theother students.
I was allowed to have a sightedguide for the first month or so
because it wasn't a good use ofthe chef's time to teach me
where things were at, but shecouldn't do anything for me, so
(14:41):
the challenge was always time.
I'm a slower cook than otherpeople and I'm the only one
using a cane, so when it cametime to the practicals just like
your daughter, watching thosecooking shells, people are
rushing around like crazy.
It was not a safe place to be,because communication in a
culinary kitchen is very good.
It's part of the culture.
Yes, chef, no chef, corner,sharp knife, hot pot, I'm behind
you.
When people are stressed out,that goes out the window.
(15:01):
I'm not complaining, but it is.
You're just concentrating on.
If you didn't and I wasn't theonly one, but I was the only one
that never finished on time butthey would say you know, if you
can't finish on time, finishstrong, and I lost.
I would lose more points if Imessed up the seasoning or the
(15:23):
presentation or portioning thanif I was a little bit late.
So that's the way we wentPrioritize Exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
The least amount of pain and I really like that,
were you the first student thatthey had had with vision
impairment.
And then were they excited tokind of invite more people in.
How did they market forsomething like that?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Well, I was the first legally blind, for sure, they
had a person.
So I went through the cuisineside of the wall and on the
other side was baking and pastryand they had a deaf student in
there with an interpreter.
I don't think that personfinished.
I don't know what that storywas, but they send people with
visual impairments to me and totalk with them and say what do I
(16:16):
want?
To go to colonoscopy, what do Ineed?
So I love those kinds of callswhere I can really be very
honest and say this is it's noteasy, it's a lot of homework,
it's a lot of memorization, butit is so worth it, yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Mentorship is so important in all sorts of areas
in your life, whether it's, youknow, just education or career,
just mental health, really allthe kind of mentors are
wonderful to have, and peoplewere there for me, so it's my
job to pay it forward, that'spart of it.
No, I love that.
(16:49):
I love that so much.
I think that's one of myfavorite things, too is helping
people find resources just likethis.
I'll be able to, you know, giveanyone that wants this resource
an amazing resource to have now, so I'm thrilled about that.
What can people find when theygo to the website, what does
that entail and how do they workthrough that process?
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Okay, the website is very clean.
The way I use my computer is Iuse a keyboard only.
I don't use a mouse.
I don't use a screen.
I have a screen reader.
It tells me what's on there, soit's very screen reader and
magnifier friendly.
But what they'll find is a lotof tools and tips.
The tools are the bread andbutter of the blind kitchen, but
(17:32):
the library is the heart of itand there's a whole lot of free
information to help make cookingeasier, really for anyone.
Focus on vision loss, but a lotof those tips are really
helpful.
The other thing is there'svideo tutorials for a majority
of the tools and if we don'thave a video, then it's a
(17:54):
written description that's veryaccessible and detailed, but the
videos are audio described,which means there's no silence.
You're not going to have music.
It's going to be when I'm nottalking, describing what I'm
doing in my environment.
Then we have a professionalvoice come on and he says
Deborah's crossing the kitchenright now she's near the sink,
(18:16):
and so that way anybody,regardless of your level of
vision, has access to thatinformation.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
That's so fascinating .
You know, I'm going through thesince I've started these
wonderful accessibility episodes, figuring out that my website
wasn't, was not, um, accessibleenough for for viewers uh,
screen readers rather and so I'mreally excited to take that,
(18:42):
you know, to be able to offerthat as well to anybody that
that needs or that wants those,um, and being able to know even
that it exists and teach people.
These are the things that youneed to do in order to be
accessible to everyone, for thewhole community.
(19:04):
So I really, I really like that.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I appreciate that you looked at your own website and
there are companies out therethat can help you make your
website accessible.
It's really not that difficult,but if you don't know how to do
it, you don't know how to do it, and so there are companies,
but in a lot of people think oframps and wheelchairs and stuff
when they think of accessibility, but me, having access to the
(19:29):
internet is huge.
I could not run a businesswithout access to the internet,
and so when I hit an accessiblewebsite, it's very frustrating.
It's like what?
Why Button button, buttonbutton?
I don't know if it's a checkoutbutton, a back button, a cancel
button.
It can be a pretty frustratingexperience.
So I appreciate that you lookedat your website and would
(19:51):
encourage others to do the same.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
A hundred percent, no , and I you know, and I, let's
be honest, some of us runningaround out there don't know that
it even is a thing that we needto look at, or to do.
So I love that we can bringthis awareness to help people,
because I think thataccessibility is so, so
important.
(20:14):
You know, I obviously want itfor my own children, which is my
passion.
Behind, you know, finding allof the access and resources that
I can for the community atlarge.
And where can people findinformation to come visit you.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
Yeah, just go to theblindkitchencom.
That's the website that has allthe information on all
different aspects of cooking,including ways to label things.
How do you identify items in aclosed container when you can't
smell it?
You can't touch it?
The two cans of soup lookexactly alike.
How to clean if you can't see?
(20:57):
How to organize?
How to access and read recipesif you can no longer read large
print?
There are like 12 differentanswers that are correct.
It depends on your budget, yourcomfort with technology, and
sometimes as simple as a rubberband around one can of soup and
not around the other, or shampooand conditioner.
That's another one.
(21:21):
Conditioner has the letter R init.
Put the rubber band around theconditioner and then you've got
a little mnemonic device thereto help you remember every time
you go there.
And so some of them are reallyinexpensive.
And those bump dots they'revery inexpensive, love that.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Those are wonderful tips and very practical and easy
to do and I can see the valuein them, like you said, not only
for vision impairment but forother accessibility as well.
I think that those are reallyreally wonderful, valuable tips.
And are you on social media?
(21:53):
Is there anywhere that peoplecan go and find you and follow
you and those things?
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Yes, we're on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn
and, in full disclosure, Idon't do any of that.
I pay people to do that Because, you know, I'm also a big fan
of doing what you love and I do.
Blind people do Facebook andLinkedIn.
Absolutely, they do, and theydo it quite well.
I want to cook and I want toteach.
(22:18):
Those are the two things I wantto do, and I don't want to
learn to do that part of it.
So, if there are any buddingentrepreneurs out there, do what
you love and find a way to paypeople, to find a way to get
paid for it, and then pay otherpeople to do the things you
don't love so much.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
I love that.
I think delegation not that I'mgood at it I think it's a
fantastic idea and I'm going tobe getting better at it and I
think it comes kind of withtimes in your life too, and
maybe positions that you're in,how much you need to do that.
So definitely finding the valuein what delegation can bring
(22:59):
for my life.
So I love that, especially whenI found out I didn't know how
to fix my website on my own andI had to you know, get ahold of
my website designer and say, andyou know the, the woman I had
previously learned it from saidI'll, I'll walk you through it
and everything.
But I really just wasn'tcomfortable with that.
So I'm really glad that there'speople that can, um can, do
(23:20):
those things.
So please, listeners, checkyour websites, go, make sure you
can.
Even I think I ran mine throughchat GPT.
I think it was as simple as mesaying hey, chat GPT, is my
website accessible, are therethings that I can do?
And it said, no, there, youknow there's.
You need to update your website.
(23:41):
Here are the things.
And so I emailed that to mywebsite designer and said hey,
these are the things I need helpwith, but you know, try to do
it.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
That's fabulous.
I learned something here.
So the next time I get to awebsite maybe it's it's gonna I
can run it through and send itto someone at that company you
use it for you know reallypositive intentions and and uses
it can be such a helpful tooland I I recommend it to to
(24:27):
everyone you know use itcorrectly, Um, and it can be
just a fascinating fascinatingand and so time-saving oh
goodness, and it can be just afascinating.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
fascinating and so time-saving.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Oh goodness.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
And it's brilliant?
Yeah, it has all theinformation.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Meta and Ray-Ban hooked up together and they made
these glasses with a camera onthem.
And so I say, hey, meta, lookand tell me what's in this can
in my hand, and I'll hear itsnap a picture.
And then I hear the AI whirringin the background.
Well, that's a can of kidneybeans.
And you know how many ounces,meta 15 ounces.
I can be in an airport.
(25:02):
Hey, meta, can you see a doorin front of me?
No, there's no door in front ofyou.
Or, yes, there's a door infront of you.
It's amazing.
It makes me way moreindependent.
Ai, I'm not smart enough aboutit to be afraid of it, I'm just
loving it.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Yeah, I'm just I and I, my husband kind of teases me
cause he doesn't really, he justuses his cell phone.
That's the only technology,isn't even you have an email
address.
And so I kind of he teases meand I say, well, I'm, I'm really
friendly with it.
It's like when anything goesdown, they're going to be like
Sarah is our friend.
So, yeah, you know, I heard aninteresting thing that they it
(25:42):
actually costs time and so muchmoney for please and thank yous.
I, yeah, and I't know, I wouldhave never thought that, because
it's only, you know, written todo tasks.
It doesn't, um, it doesn't ithas to take extra time to deal
(26:03):
with the emotions that us humanshave that we put into it.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
No, no to self sound like a robot?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah, exactly If you talk to it like a robot, it
understands better.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
No, that's pretty good.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Oh, this has been such a wonderful conversation,
Debra.
Thank you so, so much for yourtime today.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
I've enjoyed it as well.
Sarah, Thank you so much forhaving me.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, I hope we can stay in touch Definitely.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Agreed, agreed.
I think we're both trying tomake the world a more accessible
place, and so we have a lot incommon and we like Portland
Oregon.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Exactly, exactly.
I love that.
Well, it's so nice to chat withyou and, yeah, let's stay in
touch, for sure.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Sounds good.
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Together we rise, sheddingfears in every heart.
She plants the seed ofunderstanding and love for
dearly me.
It's changing the world for youWith a heart that's fierce and
(28:42):
strong, empathies and melodiesIn a journey we all belong.
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season.
Join Sarah Brafford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Go to sjchildsorg.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Hi and thanks for joining the SJ Child show today.
The wonderful amount of gueststhat we can, you know, gather
information from and reallylearn how to accommodate a wide
variety of viewers, listenersand as well as our friends over
in the Water Wellness Center.
Thank you for your sponsorearlier, you know, in the month.
We want to give them a shoutout.
(01:11):
So thank you so much, debra,for being here today, through
all of our difficulties, and tothose of you who might be
watching this on the YouTubechannel yes, it's going to look
a little bit different becausewe're using Zoom instead of our
normal StreamYard, but anyways,it's going to be a wonderful
conversation and I'm reallylooking forward to the value you
(01:32):
guys are going to find fromthis.
Debra, thanks so much for beinghere.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and what brought you
here today.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
No, thank you for having me.
Yes, I am the executive chefand founder of the Blind Kitchen
and I do happen to be blind.
I have retinitis pigmentosa andI was the only blind student in
culinary school, so I had tosolve a lot of problems and
that's what the Blind Kitchen isof problems and that's what the
(02:06):
blind kitchen is.
It's a.
It was my answers to theproblems and my now sharing of
that information with otherpeople with vision loss that
want to cook.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Wow, that's amazing.
You basically went in andcreated a template for those who
you know love to cook and wantto are more interested, but
might be afraid or or not surehow to start.
If that's you know somethingthat you come across, that's
really fascinating.
Tell us about your, I guess,love of cooking, because
(02:36):
obviously, what sent you toculinary school?
Why did you start there?
Speaker 4 (02:41):
You know, I did not love to cook and I was not a
good cook.
I was a tomboy growing up, oneof 12 kids.
So we, the seven girls, didn'tget much time in front of the
stove with mom.
But even as an adult I cookedfrom cans and boxes because that
was really the only way I knewhow and I wasn't judging myself,
that's, I thought all peopledid.
(03:01):
But I have taught adults in thepast, and when I was at the
Oregon Commission for the Blind,I lost the major portion of my
vision in my early 50s, and so Istill wanted to work and I was
under doing a meal prep classwith my dear friend now.
She was my teacher at the timeand I thought I'm having fun, I
(03:24):
would like to teach cooking,maybe, let me think.
And then that light bulb wentoff because I thought you don't
know how to cook and you don'tknow how to teach cooking, so
what in the world are you doing?
So that's what sparked the ideafor culinary school, because
the best place to learn, toteach cooking and learn cooking,
is at a cooking school, and itwas a wonderful experience.
(03:46):
I don't regret it one bit.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Oh, I love that and I love to cook, so I'm coming
from that other.
I'm always have my I.
My mom was don't be listening,mom.
My mom was no dad, though he hewas a spectacular cook.
So and and he.
They were divorced, so I livedwith him, you know.
So we had that one on one wherewe did everything together in
(04:11):
the cooking and stuff.
So I really took a lot of whathe did and share it with my
family.
And things more accessible,especially, you know, for our
family who are all autistic,especially our son who has
profound autism, finding ways tocreate number one meals that he
(04:37):
won't eat anyway, you know,items, food items.
But also how do we teach himhow to do some of these things
and the skills that you need tofollow through, and so I think
that the idea of just having alltypes of accessibility for
cooking is just brilliant.
(04:59):
What is like a major step, that, a tip that you give to start
kicking.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Okay, so I first of all, a lot of the time I have
two different groups.
I've got people like your sonwho have difficulties getting
into the kitchen, who might havesome challenges.
Mine, of course, focused mainlyon vision loss, but we have
about 100 tools now in the blindkitchen, all adaptive, all
geared towards vision loss, butabout 90% of them are not made
(05:31):
for people with vision loss.
So, for example, we have athing called a cut glove and I
have done many, manydemonstrations where I put the
cut glove on my hand typicallythin you can't read Braille
through it or anything like that, but it's relatively thin and I
put my palm of my hand, palmside up and I run a very sharp
knife back and forth across itand it does not cut through,
(05:54):
it's cut resistant.
It's used level five, used incommercial kitchens.
So that's good for anybody,especially if you're grating
food.
I don't know of any cooks thathave not left their knuckle skin
with a box grater, becausethey're weird, they're angled,
they've got different blades anddifferent number of blades.
(06:15):
So I always use that glove whenI'm grating, because you just
don't know when you're going tocome in contact with it and when
you do.
I'm just going to stop when Ifeel unexpected contact.
If I hadn't been wearing theglove it would have been too
late.
My skin would already be in themiddle.
Extra flavor, extra protein, Iguess, but it's so.
Those are the kind of tools thatwe have so they can be used.
(06:37):
So children a lot of parentswant their children to help and
that allows them to like dograding.
That's a simple one.
Even if you're very young youcan do that, and we have size
extra small gloves.
But the other population wehave are older adults, older
adults who already know diabetesrelated diseases, advanced
glaucoma.
(06:57):
They don't know how to get inthe kitchen without cutting
themselves, so they lose a hugepart of their identity.
And so that is the other groupof people that we meet are
(07:19):
people that don't know becauseof whatever disability they have
and I don't address alldisabilities, but mine certainly
can apply to quite a few acrossthe board to help them get back
into the kitchen and be able tocook again.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Oh, I love that.
I think that's a fascinatingidea.
One idea I had, you know, thecome on brain, simon Munjambar,
that's his name.
He's a.
He's a judge for one of thecooking shows and I had
interviewed him once and we weretalking about how could you
(07:56):
make your cooking um show moreaccessible.
You know, and we had come upwith on, you know, for
especially children and thingsthey could see the process that
was happening and the boilingwater and that kind of kind of
(08:19):
get the idea of what that was.
And I just thought, oh gosh,these are, these are such great
ideas to do.
What should a person do tomaybe get their kitchen ready?
Like, how do you get yourkitchen ready if you are going
to go?
You know you're interested indoing this but you might be,
(08:39):
like you said, going through anytype of vision impairment,
disability.
How do you get your kitchenready?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
So depending on the disability there will be
different answers for it.
I can speak to vision loss,things like knobs on your stove
if they don't click where youcan count the clicks, a lot of
them don't.
A lot of them just kind offreely rotate.
They have little things calledbump dots which are little
tactile bumps.
They're literally like a halfof a circle with a strong
(09:10):
adhesive on the other side andyou can, if you can, either mark
the tip of the dial or a lot oftimes you can feel that it
comes to a point, there's aspecific feel, and then put a
bump dot on the stove itself at300, 350, and 400.
Now you just line up the tip ofthat dial with the first,
(09:30):
second or third bump dot, ormaybe halfway in between if you
want 375.
The first, second or third bumpdot or maybe halfway in between
if you want 375.
Very inexpensive and if you'rerenting and now you want to move
out, it can be removedinvisibly.
But the other good thing is youcan use for children that can
see.
You could use high contrast,certain colors.
(09:51):
You can say the red one is forthis or the yellow one.
But most people don't start withthe stovetop for cooking with
kids.
You might want to do the oven,and then there are of gloves to
keep your hands safe and neverstick your hands in the oven.
Just pull the rack out to you.
I mean, there are so manydifferent ways to be able to
cook safely.
And we have some stuff for kidstoo, that, like we have what we
(10:13):
call an aerator and you put ina half a cup of heavy whipping
cream, a tablespoon ofconfectioner's sugar, a little
bit of vanilla, and then it getsclosed up in the tube and the
kid just pumps up and down.
So no mess, it's all enclosedin the tube and they don't have
to open it because as the yeah,it gets thicker, as the air gets
incorporated and into the fatit gets harder and harder to
(10:36):
push.
So there's quite a few thingsthat you can.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
A frosting maker.
It sounds like Like a.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
What A frosting maker it sounds like yeah, a whipped
cream maker, yeah, that soundsdelicious Wow.
It's a wonderful little tool.
Oh how fun.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
And you know, when they're little there's so much
fun to be had when, if they'reinterested in doing that, I
remember my little one wantingto do you know it was kind of
funny because she was like I'mgoing to go onto the chef, you
know kids chef thing.
But she didn't actually like togo into the kitchen and make
the foods.
She didn't really like thecompetition.
(11:11):
So I remember that being on oneof her little like vision.
We did like a vision boards,you know, for the future it was
going to be on the chef's, youknow junior chef, kid bakers or
something?
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Love that yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
I think that getting anybody excited about what they
can do for themselves forcooking because, you know, for
my mom, right now especially,she is just widowed and I think
that I'm trying to say, hey,find some new recipes that
you've never done before,instead of her just feeling kind
(11:51):
of, like you said, she has tojust eat out of a box or
something, because it's just her, and I'm like, no, let's use
this time wisely to reallyinvest in all of the things you
wanted to do, especially tryingthose new recipes and things
like that, and really, like youknow, because she likes the
kitchen and I think it's good toencourage, encourage.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
I agree, yeah, and food is a bridge.
Food is a bridge.
We all have to eat.
That's something we have incommon, regardless of our
ability or disability orwhatever.
We all have to eat and that'swhere stories and sharing and
history come together.
Just being in the same roomcelebrating events and stuff
(12:36):
like that, I have a goodindustry to be in because it
makes people happy.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Isn't that the truth?
And do you do in-person classesthere?
Well, I'm not even sure whereyou're at in the world anyways.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
I am in Portland, oregon, the business is oh boy.
Next time you're here, comevisit.
I spent about 10 years there,so I yeah, I'm on a floating
home on the Columbia river.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
No, kidding, it's very cool.
I'm coming down.
Sorry Shutting down this now,starting to drive this afternoon
?
No, I love that.
Wow, wow.
What a lucky life.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
That's amazing.
It is, it is, but I lost mytrain of thought.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I know I got so excited, sorry about that.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
We're all good.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Where?
Oh, I had asked if you had, ifyou did physical classes there
yeah, I do.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
I do workshops where I I go.
I've traveled out of state manytimes and, just like a group of
eight people, depends on iftheir age, their experience with
cooking, yeah, but there are alot of agencies out there that
are interested in exposingpeople to the possibility of
returning to the kitchen orperhaps getting in there for the
(13:55):
first time.
But so, yeah, I do workshops inpublic speaking and everything
else is online now.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
And how did the culinary school accommodate and
what did they learn, do youthink from your experience in
moving forward for otherstudents?
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Well, I went to McCloskey Culinary Institute in
Vancouver, washington, and thechefs could not have been any
better.
They had to treat me like theother students.
I was allowed to have a sightedguide for the first month or so
because it wasn't a good use ofthe chef's time to teach me
where things were at, but shecouldn't do anything for me, so
(14:41):
the challenge was always time.
I'm a slower cook than otherpeople and I'm the only one
using a cane, so when it cametime to the practicals just like
your daughter, watching thosecooking shells, people are
rushing around like crazy.
It was not a safe place to be,because communication in a
culinary kitchen is very good.
It's part of the culture.
Yes, chef, no chef, corner,sharp knife, hot pot, I'm behind
you.
When people are stressed out,that goes out the window.
(15:01):
I'm not complaining, but it is.
You're just concentrating on.
If you didn't and I wasn't theonly one, but I was the only one
that never finished on time butthey would say you know, if you
can't finish on time, finishstrong, and I lost.
I would lose more points if Imessed up the seasoning or the
(15:23):
presentation or portioning thanif I was a little bit late.
So that's the way we wentPrioritize Exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
The least amount of pain and I really like that,
were you the first student thatthey had had with vision
impairment.
And then were they excited tokind of invite more people in.
How did they market forsomething like that?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Well, I was the first legally blind, for sure, they
had a person.
So I went through the cuisineside of the wall and on the
other side was baking and pastryand they had a deaf student in
there with an interpreter.
I don't think that personfinished.
I don't know what that storywas, but they send people with
visual impairments to me and totalk with them and say what do I
(16:16):
want?
To go to colonoscopy, what do Ineed?
So I love those kinds of callswhere I can really be very
honest and say this is it's noteasy, it's a lot of homework,
it's a lot of memorization, butit is so worth it, yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Mentorship is so important in all sorts of areas
in your life, whether it's, youknow, just education or career,
just mental health, really allthe kind of mentors are
wonderful to have, and peoplewere there for me, so it's my
job to pay it forward, that'spart of it.
No, I love that.
(16:49):
I love that so much.
I think that's one of myfavorite things, too is helping
people find resources just likethis.
I'll be able to, you know, giveanyone that wants this resource
an amazing resource to have now, so I'm thrilled about that.
What can people find when theygo to the website, what does
that entail and how do they workthrough that process?
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Okay, the website is very clean.
The way I use my computer is Iuse a keyboard only.
I don't use a mouse.
I don't use a screen.
I have a screen reader.
It tells me what's on there, soit's very screen reader and
magnifier friendly.
But what they'll find is a lotof tools and tips.
The tools are the bread andbutter of the blind kitchen, but
(17:32):
the library is the heart of itand there's a whole lot of free
information to help make cookingeasier, really for anyone.
Focus on vision loss, but a lotof those tips are really
helpful.
The other thing is there'svideo tutorials for a majority
of the tools and if we don'thave a video, then it's a
(17:54):
written description that's veryaccessible and detailed, but the
videos are audio described,which means there's no silence.
You're not going to have music.
It's going to be when I'm nottalking, describing what I'm
doing in my environment.
Then we have a professionalvoice come on and he says
Deborah's crossing the kitchenright now she's near the sink,
(18:16):
and so that way anybody,regardless of your level of
vision, has access to thatinformation.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
That's so fascinating .
You know, I'm going through thesince I've started these
wonderful accessibility episodes, figuring out that my website
wasn't, was not, um, accessibleenough for for viewers uh,
screen readers rather and so I'mreally excited to take that,
(18:42):
you know, to be able to offerthat as well to anybody that
that needs or that wants those,um, and being able to know even
that it exists and teach people.
These are the things that youneed to do in order to be
accessible to everyone, for thewhole community.
(19:04):
So I really, I really like that.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I appreciate that you looked at your own website and
there are companies out therethat can help you make your
website accessible.
It's really not that difficult,but if you don't know how to do
it, you don't know how to do it, and so there are companies,
but in a lot of people think oframps and wheelchairs and stuff
when they think of accessibility, but me, having access to the
(19:29):
internet is huge.
I could not run a businesswithout access to the internet,
and so when I hit an accessiblewebsite, it's very frustrating.
It's like what?
Why Button button, buttonbutton?
I don't know if it's a checkoutbutton, a back button, a cancel
button.
It can be a pretty frustratingexperience.
So I appreciate that you lookedat your website and would
(19:51):
encourage others to do the same.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
A hundred percent, no , and I you know, and I, let's
be honest, some of us runningaround out there don't know that
it even is a thing that we needto look at, or to do.
So I love that we can bringthis awareness to help people,
because I think thataccessibility is so, so
important.
(20:14):
You know, I obviously want itfor my own children, which is my
passion.
Behind, you know, finding allof the access and resources that
I can for the community atlarge.
And where can people findinformation to come visit you.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
Yeah, just go to theblindkitchencom.
That's the website that has allthe information on all
different aspects of cooking,including ways to label things.
How do you identify items in aclosed container when you can't
smell it?
You can't touch it?
The two cans of soup lookexactly alike.
How to clean if you can't see?
(20:57):
How to organize?
How to access and read recipesif you can no longer read large
print?
There are like 12 differentanswers that are correct.
It depends on your budget, yourcomfort with technology, and
sometimes as simple as a rubberband around one can of soup and
not around the other, or shampooand conditioner.
That's another one.
(21:21):
Conditioner has the letter R init.
Put the rubber band around theconditioner and then you've got
a little mnemonic device thereto help you remember every time
you go there.
And so some of them are reallyinexpensive.
And those bump dots they'revery inexpensive, love that.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Those are wonderful tips and very practical and easy
to do and I can see the valuein them, like you said, not only
for vision impairment but forother accessibility as well.
I think that those are reallyreally wonderful, valuable tips.
And are you on social media?
(21:53):
Is there anywhere that peoplecan go and find you and follow
you and those things?
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Yes, we're on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn
and, in full disclosure, Idon't do any of that.
I pay people to do that Because, you know, I'm also a big fan
of doing what you love and I do.
Blind people do Facebook andLinkedIn.
Absolutely, they do, and theydo it quite well.
I want to cook and I want toteach.
(22:18):
Those are the two things I wantto do, and I don't want to
learn to do that part of it.
So, if there are any buddingentrepreneurs out there, do what
you love and find a way to paypeople, to find a way to get
paid for it, and then pay otherpeople to do the things you
don't love so much.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
I love that.
I think delegation not that I'mgood at it I think it's a
fantastic idea and I'm going tobe getting better at it and I
think it comes kind of withtimes in your life too, and
maybe positions that you're in,how much you need to do that.
So definitely finding the valuein what delegation can bring
(22:59):
for my life.
So I love that, especially whenI found out I didn't know how
to fix my website on my own andI had to you know, get ahold of
my website designer and say, andyou know the, the woman I had
previously learned it from saidI'll, I'll walk you through it
and everything.
But I really just wasn'tcomfortable with that.
So I'm really glad that there'speople that can, um can, do
(23:20):
those things.
So please, listeners, checkyour websites, go, make sure you
can.
Even I think I ran mine throughchat GPT.
I think it was as simple as mesaying hey, chat GPT, is my
website accessible, are therethings that I can do?
And it said, no, there, youknow there's.
You need to update your website.
(23:41):
Here are the things.
And so I emailed that to mywebsite designer and said hey,
these are the things I need helpwith, but you know, try to do
it.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
That's fabulous.
I learned something here.
So the next time I get to awebsite maybe it's it's gonna I
can run it through and send itto someone at that company you
use it for you know reallypositive intentions and and uses
it can be such a helpful tooland I I recommend it to to
(24:27):
everyone you know use itcorrectly, Um, and it can be
just a fascinating fascinatingand and so time-saving oh
goodness, and it can be just afascinating.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
fascinating and so time-saving.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Oh goodness.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
And it's brilliant?
Yeah, it has all theinformation.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Meta and Ray-Ban hooked up together and they made
these glasses with a camera onthem.
And so I say, hey, meta, lookand tell me what's in this can
in my hand, and I'll hear itsnap a picture.
And then I hear the AI whirringin the background.
Well, that's a can of kidneybeans.
And you know how many ounces,meta 15 ounces.
I can be in an airport.
(25:02):
Hey, meta, can you see a doorin front of me?
No, there's no door in front ofyou.
Or, yes, there's a door infront of you.
It's amazing.
It makes me way moreindependent.
Ai, I'm not smart enough aboutit to be afraid of it, I'm just
loving it.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Yeah, I'm just I and I, my husband kind of teases me
cause he doesn't really, he justuses his cell phone.
That's the only technology,isn't even you have an email
address.
And so I kind of he teases meand I say, well, I'm, I'm really
friendly with it.
It's like when anything goesdown, they're going to be like
Sarah is our friend.
So, yeah, you know, I heard aninteresting thing that they it
(25:42):
actually costs time and so muchmoney for please and thank yous.
I, yeah, and I't know, I wouldhave never thought that, because
it's only, you know, written todo tasks.
It doesn't, um, it doesn't ithas to take extra time to deal
(26:03):
with the emotions that us humanshave that we put into it.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
No, no to self sound like a robot?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah, exactly If you talk to it like a robot, it
understands better.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
No, that's pretty good.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Oh, this has been such a wonderful conversation,
Debra.
Thank you so, so much for yourtime today.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
I've enjoyed it as well.
Sarah, Thank you so much forhaving me.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, I hope we can stay in touch Definitely.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Agreed, agreed.
I think we're both trying tomake the world a more accessible
place, and so we have a lot incommon and we like Portland
Oregon.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Exactly, exactly.
I love that.
Well, it's so nice to chat withyou and, yeah, let's stay in
touch, for sure.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Sounds good.
In the heart of the city, she'sshining bright.
Oh yeah, stories of love andcourage.
All throughout the night, hervoice resonating An anthem for
all.
Through the trials and thetrials, she answers the call.
A mother and a fighter,breaking barriers and strife,
(27:19):
with love as her guide.
She'll never hide.
She's changing the world foryou With her heart and speech
and strong Empathies and melody.
In her journey we all belong.
Followers gather Like stars inthe night.
So bright, 44,000 voicesSharing in the light.
(27:46):
She stands for family,advocates them all.
Movement of compassion.
Ways we'll soar Podcasttogether.
Symphony of support In lifechange and rapport.
She's changing the world foryou With a heart that's fierce
and strong, empathies andmelodies In a journey we all
(28:11):
belong.
Through her eyes, a visionclear.
Together we rise, sheddingfears in every heart.
She plants the seed ofunderstanding and love for
dearly me.
It's changing the world for youWith a heart that's fierce and
(28:42):
strong, empathies and melodiesIn a journey we all belong.
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