June 24, 2025 • 38 mins
What does it mean to discover your autism at age 44? Dr. Jason Ybarra takes us on a profound journey of self-discovery that began when he noticed he could understand his autistic students in ways others couldn't. "This feels like a cozy sweater," he recalls thinking, as pieces of his own identity puzzle started falling into place.
The revelation transformed Dr. Ybarra's understanding of his past. Those childhood hours spent alone with art and Legos, the social exhaustion misdiagnosed as depression, the academic paradox of excelling in math while struggling with writing—suddenly made sense through a neurodivergent lens. His conversation with his mother after diagnosis brought new clarity to both of them, strengthening their bond as they reframed puzzling childhood moments.
Now as a university professor and planetarium director, Dr. Ybarra channels his lived experience into creating more accessible spaces for neurodivergent students. He's implementing autism training for staff, revising instructional materials for clarity, and mentoring students who share his neurotype. Most powerfully, he's identifying unique talents in autistic students and creating research opportunities tailored to their abilities—like partnering with a calligraphy-skilled student on a historical astronomy project.
"When you embrace neurodiversity, that benefits everyone," Dr. Ybarra explains, highlighting how accommodations designed for neurodivergent minds often improve experiences for all. His work demonstrates that understanding the autistic experience isn't just about helping those on the spectrum—it's about creating a world where different ways of thinking are recognized as valuable, where clear communication replaces unspoken expectations, and where everyone has the opportunity to contribute their unique gifts.
Ready to explore more about autism, neurodiversity, and creating inclusive environments? Connect with Dr. Ybarra or reach out to autism advocacy networks that can guide you toward resources and community support.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The SJ Childs Show is Backwards' 13th season.
Join Sarah Brafford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season, we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Go to sjchildsorg.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Hello and welcome to the SJ Child Show today.
I'm really excited to bring awonderful guest, dr Jason Ibarra
, and we're going to have afascinating conversation today.
You know, sometimes you justalign with people who are doing
(01:07):
wonderful services and havegreat intentions and passion for
what they're doing, so we loveto find those people and connect
with them as much as possible.
So thank you so much for beinghere today.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Thank you so much.
I am very excited.
Hopefully I fulfill theexpectations that you just set
up.
I just need to mention thatkind of.
Whatever I say are my opinionsand not that of my employer,
west Virginia University, or thestate of.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
West.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Virginia.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much.
We appreciate that and we'reexcited to hear your opinions.
Tell us a little bit, give usan introduction and tell us a
little bit about yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Well, I am autistic, but late identified in that I
was 44 when I found out Fortyfive, so it's been an adventure.
I'm also an advocate forneurodiversity and I've been
(02:13):
that much longer than I've knownthat I was autistic.
It was an interestingcoincidence.
I think that I'm told thatpossibly autistic individuals
know when there's anotherautistic individual, because I
feel like I've had greatopportunity to mentor students
(02:40):
that were autistic and Ipartially, that were autistic
and I partially.
I was able to understand thingswhen they told me that I
realized that typicalneurotypical people did not,
(03:00):
would not understand, yeah, andand that made me start thinking.
Hmm you know, maybe I should,you know, find out, because I
seem to have.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
This feels like a cozy sweater.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Yeah, I seem to have an understanding that, an
insight, and I didn't think itwas just that I'm an insightful
person.
I'm not too sure.
I am but I was definitelyhaving an insight to these
students, um, and and, of course, when I found out, then
everything made sense isn't thatamazing.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
I couldn't agree more .
And I think the same processhappened for me as I saw my son,
who was diagnosed as 16 monthsold very, very early, and so I
was seeing you know, of course,what that representation was
like.
And then later, my husband,then my daughter, then I really
(04:01):
honed in on.
Well, wait a second, where do Ifit in in this picture of these
wonderful family members ofmine?
And and you know how, like yousaid, how can I feel so related
to them and relatable to theirexperiences and things, and not
and be typical and be a typicalthinker.
(04:22):
So, yeah, what a fascinatingprocess to be able to go through
and then to go, you know, havethat introspection, to go back
through your childhood and yourteen years and really like, okay
, now this makes sense, Shinelights on these things, and,
yeah, what an interestingexpression.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Yeah, I had a really good but interesting talk with
my mom after I found out becauseyou know, I let her know and so
you know she started talkingabout how I was when I was a
child and certain challenges Ihad and things that she just
didn't understand and like it'sall like coming together, it's
(05:04):
all starting to make sense.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
So was she supportive of that, then of the
information Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Yeah, she was, you know.
I think that you know one ofthe concerns that she had when I
was a child was that I wasconsidered bright and and I this
was in California.
I did, I am from, originallyfrom California I was pulled
(05:34):
into, uh, uh, they had a timelike a gate school, a gifted and
talented education school, but,like socially, I had a lot of
issues and problems and they, Idon't know, it was something
that it was not quite youunderstand that, where that was
(05:55):
coming from, and she would talkabout that of like you know, not
understanding.
So I think it was really great,and you know, to talk to my mom
about this and get an insightto some of the things that when
(06:20):
she would talk about like myexpression of emotion, of like
sometimes not reallyunderstanding, and she's like I
know you really care and love us, you know, but like you know
your expression, so like havingit all make sense really, I
(06:41):
think in some ways you know.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Validated.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Yeah, and also increased connection with you
know.
I think you know a stronger,maybe a stronger bond with my
mom.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
I love that.
I love that.
I'm really glad to hear that.
You know, and we all have ourown different experiences,
especially with the way parentsperceive things, and I think
that that was one be the samething for you kind of an idea,
and so it's been tricky.
(07:29):
It's been really tricky.
Um, but do you have anysiblings?
I don't know um, I don't either,but yeah siblings I grew up
with and and so that'sinteresting too, because then
you also don't have that levelof comparison if you will, or
(07:50):
you know, just being able to seethat different type of
behaviors from differentsiblings or such.
So that's an interesting view.
Interesting view when you werein school, things like that.
What type of um hobbies andinterests did you have back then
(08:11):
and did you have, you know,struggles that you would
perceive now as your autisticchallenges?
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Um, okay, so, Ooh, okay, so I think we want to
rewind.
Can you ask me?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
You're good.
I know I loaded you up with bigquestions so, um, yeah, what?
I guess I shouldn't have donethat.
Sorry, I overloaded you onquestions there.
Um, what were your hobbies andand things as a child?
Speaker 4 (08:55):
I was a very like, quiet, willing to be on my own
type of kid and you know I lovedart and you know I would spend
a lot of time, you know, withart or you know, I was much
(09:15):
younger.
Like you know, legos were reallyjust to myself, very to myself,
and I think maybe part of thatwas originally thought to.
You know, I don't have siblings, so maybe that's why I'm, you
know, to myself, yeah, I think,mostly kind of art, but I love
(09:45):
learning.
So I unfortunately, you know,I'm not someone that can read
fiction very well, but I canread nonfiction things and, you
know, and, like you know, try tolearn something.
(10:07):
So I was always tinkering withstuff, maybe sometimes breaking
things.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Just to put them back together, Maybe no.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
But I was good at breaking things, putting them
back together.
You know, I would have theoccasional extra part.
So, I would say, for a lot ofit I was just kind of you know,
alone to myself.
I think some of the you know Ihad social challenges.
(10:45):
I think some of the you know Ihad social challenges.
I think I think you know manyof us do, and I didn't know why.
But like after school, I wouldjust have to be.
I would not do anything like atall for hours like you, you know
(11:12):
, and and you know, it's like Ididn't think I was lazy.
I was like, oh, maybe I'm lazy,I don't know, but I just need
to lay down yeah um and so.
so some of that kind ofexhaustion, you know, social
exhaustion, I think wasunfortunately later in life
(11:34):
misdiagnosed as depression.
Yeah, um and and and.
So you know that, uh, that waslike, okay, all right, maybe,
maybe when I was a kid I wasreally depressed to know about
that Um, but now, like I know,it's not that um, that I'm not
(12:01):
saying that.
I don't have depression, butI'm saying that it's nowhere
near what.
I was originally diagnosed asit's just that social situations
completely drain me.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
And isn't that an interesting perception that
doctors and psychologists hadback then, that the perceived
loneliness of a person, orwanting to be alone, that, you
know, wanting that isolation, isthis perceived depression state
.
Or you know, and I have a childwho is, I'm, extremely outgoing
(12:35):
and loud and friendly andbubbly.
She is exactly my opposite.
She is the shadow of me and ahundred percent.
You know, in wonderful waysshe's quiet and introspective
and listens to everything andit's just, oh, is the observer.
You know, I like to think ofher as the observer.
She wants to be a part ofthings by observing.
(12:57):
She doesn't necessarily want tobe thrown into the mix of it
all and everything.
And I've really found thisrespect for that in her that I
may not have understood in otherpeople and I think that maybe
others misunderstand about herand misperceive her.
(13:19):
And I kind of wanted to touchon that because I like that.
You said you know I liked to bealone.
I liked to because I thinkthat's an important thing for
parents especially to hear isthat the understanding that you
know one wants to spend theirtime alone isn't necessarily,
(13:45):
doesn't need to be personalizedonto yourself as a parent, that
it's something that is wrong.
That is something, that is badbehavior or anything.
I hate that word, anything likethat.
I think that it's when wereally are curious about the
individual themselves and whatreally satisfies and brings out
(14:09):
their own personal desires, thenwe get to know them on the
level of who they really are.
And my husband has thiswonderful saying, and that is
you will fail a hundred out of ahundred times of pretending to
be someone else.
You only can be who you reallyare, and that's where it comes
down to.
(14:29):
I have to juggle with peoplehaving these ideas that she's
someone she's not Did.
Was that something that youfound in others um views or
opinions of that?
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Hmm, you know, I don't know, and so I'll just say
I don't know.
But you know, we do know that,like autism, you know,
oftentimes there is a geneticaspect to that, and I don't
(15:22):
think my mom will ever listen tothis, so I think she might be a
bit neurodivergent and so insome ways let me be myself,
because she also was differentthan her family different than
(15:44):
her family, and so, in thatrespect at least, I didn't have
I never had any expectation frommy parents to be different and
I really appreciate that aspect.
It doesn't mean that theynecessarily understand things,
(16:06):
but I feel like that was a veryand I think they were, for the
most part, okay with me.
And that was great, and so youknow home is where I felt safe.
But, being out in the world.
You know I needed a place torecharge, and so you know I
(16:30):
wasn't doing much at home, butthat was because I was
recharging.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah, definitely.
What did college look likeafter high school?
Was that an easier time?
Did you go to West Virginia?
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
So you know I was bored a lot in school, k-12 kind
of education.
So you know, in fact, one thingyou learn very young is that
where you live, like, the schoolsystems are very different, and
(17:29):
so where I ended up living in amore rural area when I was
younger, they didn't know whatto do with me.
So they just like, well, we'lljust have you go into the
computer lab because we can'tteach you math, because you know
it already, like earned it andlike so.
So, um, you know so, so I so.
So there was that aspect, butthen there's also the the that I
(17:54):
have which is writing orcommunicating in general.
But, like writing, it takes me avery long time to write.
So then it was like oh well,you know, we're not going to put
him in.
Like you know, the higher.
English class because it's notwriting.
(18:15):
We ask for an essay and hewrites a paragraph and things
like that.
I was like, well, I puteverything I need to say in this
paragraph and now I understandthat.
(18:38):
You know, at the time, um, alot of my issue was with writing
, was not fully knowing whatother people did not know,
because everything that I wrotemade sense to me.
Yeah, you know, neurodiversityis an interesting thing, right?
(19:01):
I think very oftentimes peoplethink, okay, yeah, when
someone's neurodivergent, youknow, how do we understand this
person?
But realize that person istrying to understand you?
Yeah, you know, just as asdifficult time that neurotypical
people may have in trying torealize what, what, what's going
(19:23):
on or what struggles or whatthoughts or just anything.
I mean, there is the reverse,you know, I or at least that's
kind of like what challenge Inoted was like, okay, I also
have, and perhaps I realizedlater on okay, yeah, part of
what is going on in my world isI don't understand the world
(19:48):
around me, the neurotypicalworld, and that is what
contributes to the exhaustionand the retreating and the
(20:10):
aspects of anxiety that areinduced by that.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Because the world is foreign to me Absolutely.
Tell us about the work you'redoing now at the university and
what that looks like, how yougot into that and how it's, you
know, changing that thosestudents um kind of
accessibility and accommodationsof what they can get at their
college now.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
Yeah, um yeah.
(20:58):
So, and I've given this somethought and one of the I think
it's so important to that, youknow, there is more awareness of
neurodiversity and things thatcan be, you know, um diagnosed,
um you know being you know,living in a rural area you know
that wasn't something that wason anyone's radar.
Um, I I think if there'ssomething that I feel like I
really wish I had in life wasthe community that comes around,
(21:21):
because I mean to know thatthere's someone else out there
like I mean not only onlysomeone, but a community out
there, not being alone, umhaving people that can
understand the things you say.
(21:42):
Um, that I mean that.
I mean I'm finding that to besuch a important aspect now in
my life.
I can't imagine how that wouldhave changed things or would
have like what effect that wouldhave been, and so I think the
(22:06):
role that I play best and, youknow, wish I had was mentorship,
and mentorship from someonethat understands a
neurodivergent thinking.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
So important.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
I think that's the key to success In the kind of
neurotypical world there is.
A lot of.
It is a lot about what's notsaid, things that are unsaid,
implied I take things tooliteral, but like it's the
(22:48):
things that aren't said andimplied that in the neurotypical
world, if you understand, that,leads to success.
But who's there if you don'tunderstand those?
And so I think that is key.
(23:09):
For that personally, for thatpersonally, I don't think that
in general the higher educationsystem is set up to embrace
neurodiversity.
There is a lack of training andinformation and I think that's
(23:32):
just kind of inherent.
So information and I thinkthat's just kind of inherent, so
you know.
But that's something I can, Ican make a contribution to.
For example, I'm the director ofthe planetarium and I wanted to
(23:53):
have a low sensory day and Ihave, you know, volunteers and
graduate students working in theplanetarium.
So one thing I could do was,you know, actually, and I worked
with someone who, if you havenot interviewed them, I mean
(24:13):
just thinking of it, you shoulda wonderful person that lives in
West Virginia, who not nearhere, a few hours away, but she
helped develop autism training.
Okay, that I, you know, thenhad students, you know, graduate
(24:38):
students and volunteers in thedepartment kind of go through
for when I had the low sensoryevent, just to know what to do
when this happens.
You know what, what?
What is a meltdown, what is ashutdown?
You know, what do you have inplace to make sure there's a
(25:04):
level of comfort?
You know, do?
you know, what to do whenthere's runners.
You know like there's a lot ofthings I didn't know about and I
thought, wow, this is reallygreat training, so at least the
very minimum in the planetarium.
My staff has gone through that.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
That's wonderful.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
So I mean, I feel like that's something a really
beneficial thing that I can do.
The person I work with you knowshe's an advocate and, you know
, produced this entire kind oflike you know, few hour training
thing and information for freefor us, which was just wonderful
(25:45):
, yeah, and so I do need to getyou in contact with her.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
I love that.
I would love that.
Thank you, and I was going tosay, I think, that Harry James
O'Kelly put us in touch.
Possibly she's my masterconnector.
She's like the muse that alwayswas the muse.
She's amazing I she sees thingsin people and this light turns
(26:16):
on above her head and she knowseverything that they can do to
make their lives better forthemselves and she doesn't want
anything out of it.
You know, she just loves togive the information and to help
lift other people up and Ithink that there's that she is
one special human being.
I love her, so shout out, harry, we, yeah, I'm so glad that we
were able to connect through her, and I think her son is, or
(26:36):
even three.
Two or three kids are up atWestern, are at Virginia, right,
west Virginia University.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
So so one of yeah, so so so one of her sons is.
I'm actually his mentor here.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Oh, that's so super.
He's doing great things andthat kid has a bright future.
So I'm really happy to hearthat.
Oh, that's wonderful, Anythingcoming up in the future that
you're looking forward toProjects, events, anything like
that that you're looking forwardto.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
Projects, events, anything like that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
My mind's all over the place.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
So it yeah, so, and this is the planning stages, but
(27:49):
I I love learning about whatstudents is like, what maybe
unique, uh, like skills andgifts they have, and can they
use that in a way that mayprovide opportunities that they
would not otherwise have.
And so there's a possibilitythat I will be working with a
(28:16):
student on a project in thehistory of astronomy based on
their have a very keen eye forcalligraphy.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
Um, and, and they are , you know, they're autistic,
they're part of the autismprogram here.
Um, and you know something Inoticed and then I'm like you
know, you know, is there a way,you know?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
would they be first?
Speaker 4 (28:51):
interested in in in kind of a project that I have
which is looking at historicaldocuments and helping kind of
transcribe them, and theyexpressed interest in that and
(29:20):
this provides an opportunity forpeople who otherwise just would
not have this kind ofopportunity to be engaged in
some sort of scientific research, like you know, would not
necessarily be recruited, yeah,and so I'm excited about that
possibility to do kind of someof that in the future as well.
(29:48):
Yeah, kind of taking advantageof what I learn all the time.
Right, if you're autistic, youdon't necessarily know
everything about autism and thedifferent expressions of that as
well.
And one thing that I've learnedto do and well, I think I need
(30:14):
to back up for just a secondbecause I wish I could just put
something out there into theworld and that is when you
embrace any diversity, when youembrace neurodiversity, that
benefits everyone and the thingsthat we can do to knock down
(30:42):
barriers actually benefitseveryone.
So one thing that I've beenworking towards and Harry Sun
that's here at WVU is helping mewith is going through old lab
(31:03):
materials for the astronomy laband just making sure that the
instructions are clear andunambiguous Wow.
From kind of a neurodiversityviewpoint.
Yeah, because I, you know,being very, I'm now very
(31:23):
cognizant and seeing where youknow my students are, where
challenges can be.
This is one that is where I canmake a big difference for some
of my autistic students and itabsolutely benefits everyone.
Absolutely Right Clarity,unambiguity that can benefit
(31:46):
everyone.
So you know, that is what I'mworking on this semester.
Is, you know, are the materialsthat are within this course?
So it's an old course.
I was here before I came here.
I want to just you know, I'mjust going to go through and
revise things and it's like am Imaking you know?
(32:09):
Is the material accessible toyou?
Know, to all?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Yeah, wonderful.
Well, it sounds like you'redoing some really important work
and working with really amazingindividuals, and being a mentor
is such a special opportunity.
It's such an honor to be ableto know that you are helping to
(32:37):
increase someone's you knowconfidence in themselves and in
their skills, and so I reallyjust praise you for that
wonderful, wonderful work andyou're doing there, and I'm look
forward to hearing more aboutthe autism program and and
(32:58):
introducing me to your friendthat is working on that.
That would be wonderful.
Um, that sounds like afascinating um, something
fascinating to talk about.
Really glad that we wereconnected and we're able to talk
today.
And for folks that are on theEast Coast and do have students
that are interested in, you know, university, there are some
(33:21):
amazing autism programs that arebeing put into place, and I
know that Harry James O'Kelly,for example, is out there
discovering them and bringingthem to light, to shed light on
them, for everyone, to get thoseresources available to them.
So please reach out for that, ifyou are looking for that, if
(33:45):
your child is looking for thatyour adult, I should say instead
of child you know are lookingfor those resources at their
college.
Please reach out, and if youneed ideas, you are probably
welcome to reach out to DrYbarra to get some support as
well.
So, yeah, it's been so nice toget to know you today.
(34:08):
I'm just going to quickly putyour website up if anybody is
interested in reaching out andsupporting and, you know, having
a discussion aboutneurodiversity, accessibility
and how they can provide moreopportunities for their students
at any age, probably because Ithink there's a big discussion
(34:31):
to be had, uh, and I think thatthe earlier we can help to teach
these accommodations, to getthese trainings in place, the
better.
Uh, and then moving forward,but I really do like the idea of
you having your grad studentsand, um, the other um, employees
or whatever from theplanetarium get that training.
(34:54):
I think that that was such agreat idea to do that.
So, yeah, great work you'redoing out there.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Thank you, I really appreciate it.
I mean, I'm just I feel sofortunate to start being kind of
connected into this community,because everyone that I'm being
connected is doing great work aswell, and to know it's out
(35:20):
there, to know about the otherresources that are because
there's a lot of work to that.
There's a lot of work still tobe done.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yep, exactly, we're in it together Now we know that.
You know here we are teammembers.
We've got a new team member onboth of our teams.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Thank you.
Yeah, absolutely Great team tobe on.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yep, absolutely.
It's so nice to get to know youtoday.
Thank you so much for your time, for your vulnerability and
sharing your story and for thewonderful work that you're
providing for the community andreally giving back, and that
says a lot about you as a person.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
Thank you Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
In the heart of a city.
She's shining bright.
Oh yeah, stories of love andcourage all throughout the night
, her voice resonating an anthemfor all through the trials and
(37:06):
the trials.
Thank you.
Life.
She stands for family.
I've kissed more.
Movement of compassion.
Ways will soar.
Podcast together.
Symphony on support in lifechanging rapport.
She's changing the world foryou with a heart that's fierce
(37:27):
and strong.
Empathy's melody in a journeywe all belong.
Through her eyes, a visionclear.
Together we rise, sheddingfears.
In every heart, she plants theseed of understanding and love
(38:06):
for dearly me, thank you.
In a journey we all belong.
The SJ Childs Show is Backwards' 13th season.
Join Sarah Brafford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season, we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Go to sjchildsorg.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Hello and welcome to the SJ Child Show today.
I'm really excited to bring awonderful guest, dr Jason Ibarra
, and we're going to have afascinating conversation today.
You know, sometimes you justalign with people who are doing
(01:07):
wonderful services and havegreat intentions and passion for
what they're doing, so we loveto find those people and connect
with them as much as possible.
So thank you so much for beinghere today.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Thank you so much.
I am very excited.
Hopefully I fulfill theexpectations that you just set
up.
I just need to mention thatkind of.
Whatever I say are my opinionsand not that of my employer,
west Virginia University, or thestate of.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
West.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Virginia.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much.
We appreciate that and we'reexcited to hear your opinions.
Tell us a little bit, give usan introduction and tell us a
little bit about yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Well, I am autistic, but late identified in that I
was 44 when I found out Fortyfive, so it's been an adventure.
I'm also an advocate forneurodiversity and I've been
(02:13):
that much longer than I've knownthat I was autistic.
It was an interestingcoincidence.
I think that I'm told thatpossibly autistic individuals
know when there's anotherautistic individual, because I
feel like I've had greatopportunity to mentor students
(02:40):
that were autistic and Ipartially, that were autistic
and I partially.
I was able to understand thingswhen they told me that I
realized that typicalneurotypical people did not,
(03:00):
would not understand, yeah, andand that made me start thinking.
Hmm you know, maybe I should,you know, find out, because I
seem to have.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
This feels like a cozy sweater.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Yeah, I seem to have an understanding that, an
insight, and I didn't think itwas just that I'm an insightful
person.
I'm not too sure.
I am but I was definitelyhaving an insight to these
students, um, and and, of course, when I found out, then
everything made sense isn't thatamazing.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
I couldn't agree more .
And I think the same processhappened for me as I saw my son,
who was diagnosed as 16 monthsold very, very early, and so I
was seeing you know, of course,what that representation was
like.
And then later, my husband,then my daughter, then I really
(04:01):
honed in on.
Well, wait a second, where do Ifit in in this picture of these
wonderful family members ofmine?
And and you know how, like yousaid, how can I feel so related
to them and relatable to theirexperiences and things, and not
and be typical and be a typicalthinker.
(04:22):
So, yeah, what a fascinatingprocess to be able to go through
and then to go, you know, havethat introspection, to go back
through your childhood and yourteen years and really like, okay
, now this makes sense, Shinelights on these things, and,
yeah, what an interestingexpression.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Yeah, I had a really good but interesting talk with
my mom after I found out becauseyou know, I let her know and so
you know she started talkingabout how I was when I was a
child and certain challenges Ihad and things that she just
didn't understand and like it'sall like coming together, it's
(05:04):
all starting to make sense.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
So was she supportive of that, then of the
information Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Yeah, she was, you know.
I think that you know one ofthe concerns that she had when I
was a child was that I wasconsidered bright and and I this
was in California.
I did, I am from, originallyfrom California I was pulled
(05:34):
into, uh, uh, they had a timelike a gate school, a gifted and
talented education school, but,like socially, I had a lot of
issues and problems and they, Idon't know, it was something
that it was not quite youunderstand that, where that was
(05:55):
coming from, and she would talkabout that of like you know, not
understanding.
So I think it was really great,and you know, to talk to my mom
about this and get an insightto some of the things that when
(06:20):
she would talk about like myexpression of emotion, of like
sometimes not reallyunderstanding, and she's like I
know you really care and love us, you know, but like you know
your expression, so like havingit all make sense really, I
(06:41):
think in some ways you know.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Validated.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Yeah, and also increased connection with you
know.
I think you know a stronger,maybe a stronger bond with my
mom.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
I love that.
I love that.
I'm really glad to hear that.
You know, and we all have ourown different experiences,
especially with the way parentsperceive things, and I think
that that was one be the samething for you kind of an idea,
and so it's been tricky.
(07:29):
It's been really tricky.
Um, but do you have anysiblings?
I don't know um, I don't either,but yeah siblings I grew up
with and and so that'sinteresting too, because then
you also don't have that levelof comparison if you will, or
(07:50):
you know, just being able to seethat different type of
behaviors from differentsiblings or such.
So that's an interesting view.
Interesting view when you werein school, things like that.
What type of um hobbies andinterests did you have back then
(08:11):
and did you have, you know,struggles that you would
perceive now as your autisticchallenges?
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Um, okay, so, Ooh, okay, so I think we want to
rewind.
Can you ask me?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
You're good.
I know I loaded you up with bigquestions so, um, yeah, what?
I guess I shouldn't have donethat.
Sorry, I overloaded you onquestions there.
Um, what were your hobbies andand things as a child?
Speaker 4 (08:55):
I was a very like, quiet, willing to be on my own
type of kid and you know I lovedart and you know I would spend
a lot of time, you know, withart or you know, I was much
(09:15):
younger.
Like you know, legos were reallyjust to myself, very to myself,
and I think maybe part of thatwas originally thought to.
You know, I don't have siblings, so maybe that's why I'm, you
know, to myself, yeah, I think,mostly kind of art, but I love
(09:45):
learning.
So I unfortunately, you know,I'm not someone that can read
fiction very well, but I canread nonfiction things and, you
know, and, like you know, try tolearn something.
(10:07):
So I was always tinkering withstuff, maybe sometimes breaking
things.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Just to put them back together, Maybe no.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
But I was good at breaking things, putting them
back together.
You know, I would have theoccasional extra part.
So, I would say, for a lot ofit I was just kind of you know,
alone to myself.
I think some of the you know Ihad social challenges.
(10:45):
I think some of the you know Ihad social challenges.
I think I think you know manyof us do, and I didn't know why.
But like after school, I wouldjust have to be.
I would not do anything like atall for hours like you, you know
(11:12):
, and and you know, it's like Ididn't think I was lazy.
I was like, oh, maybe I'm lazy,I don't know, but I just need
to lay down yeah um and so.
so some of that kind ofexhaustion, you know, social
exhaustion, I think wasunfortunately later in life
(11:34):
misdiagnosed as depression.
Yeah, um and and and.
So you know that, uh, that waslike, okay, all right, maybe,
maybe when I was a kid I wasreally depressed to know about
that Um, but now, like I know,it's not that um, that I'm not
(12:01):
saying that.
I don't have depression, butI'm saying that it's nowhere
near what.
I was originally diagnosed asit's just that social situations
completely drain me.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
And isn't that an interesting perception that
doctors and psychologists hadback then, that the perceived
loneliness of a person, orwanting to be alone, that, you
know, wanting that isolation, isthis perceived depression state
.
Or you know, and I have a childwho is, I'm, extremely outgoing
(12:35):
and loud and friendly andbubbly.
She is exactly my opposite.
She is the shadow of me and ahundred percent.
You know, in wonderful waysshe's quiet and introspective
and listens to everything andit's just, oh, is the observer.
You know, I like to think ofher as the observer.
She wants to be a part ofthings by observing.
(12:57):
She doesn't necessarily want tobe thrown into the mix of it
all and everything.
And I've really found thisrespect for that in her that I
may not have understood in otherpeople and I think that maybe
others misunderstand about herand misperceive her.
(13:19):
And I kind of wanted to touchon that because I like that.
You said you know I liked to bealone.
I liked to because I thinkthat's an important thing for
parents especially to hear isthat the understanding that you
know one wants to spend theirtime alone isn't necessarily,
(13:45):
doesn't need to be personalizedonto yourself as a parent, that
it's something that is wrong.
That is something, that is badbehavior or anything.
I hate that word, anything likethat.
I think that it's when wereally are curious about the
individual themselves and whatreally satisfies and brings out
(14:09):
their own personal desires, thenwe get to know them on the
level of who they really are.
And my husband has thiswonderful saying, and that is
you will fail a hundred out of ahundred times of pretending to
be someone else.
You only can be who you reallyare, and that's where it comes
down to.
(14:29):
I have to juggle with peoplehaving these ideas that she's
someone she's not Did.
Was that something that youfound in others um views or
opinions of that?
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Hmm, you know, I don't know, and so I'll just say
I don't know.
But you know, we do know that,like autism, you know,
oftentimes there is a geneticaspect to that, and I don't
(15:22):
think my mom will ever listen tothis, so I think she might be a
bit neurodivergent and so insome ways let me be myself,
because she also was differentthan her family different than
(15:44):
her family, and so, in thatrespect at least, I didn't have
I never had any expectation frommy parents to be different and
I really appreciate that aspect.
It doesn't mean that theynecessarily understand things,
(16:06):
but I feel like that was a veryand I think they were, for the
most part, okay with me.
And that was great, and so youknow home is where I felt safe.
But, being out in the world.
You know I needed a place torecharge, and so you know I
(16:30):
wasn't doing much at home, butthat was because I was
recharging.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah, definitely.
What did college look likeafter high school?
Was that an easier time?
Did you go to West Virginia?
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
So you know I was bored a lot in school, k-12 kind
of education.
So you know, in fact, one thingyou learn very young is that
where you live, like, the schoolsystems are very different, and
(17:29):
so where I ended up living in amore rural area when I was
younger, they didn't know whatto do with me.
So they just like, well, we'lljust have you go into the
computer lab because we can'tteach you math, because you know
it already, like earned it andlike so.
So, um, you know so, so I so.
So there was that aspect, butthen there's also the the that I
(17:54):
have which is writing orcommunicating in general.
But, like writing, it takes me avery long time to write.
So then it was like oh well,you know, we're not going to put
him in.
Like you know, the higher.
English class because it's notwriting.
(18:15):
We ask for an essay and hewrites a paragraph and things
like that.
I was like, well, I puteverything I need to say in this
paragraph and now I understandthat.
(18:38):
You know, at the time, um, alot of my issue was with writing
, was not fully knowing whatother people did not know,
because everything that I wrotemade sense to me.
Yeah, you know, neurodiversityis an interesting thing, right?
(19:01):
I think very oftentimes peoplethink, okay, yeah, when
someone's neurodivergent, youknow, how do we understand this
person?
But realize that person istrying to understand you?
Yeah, you know, just as asdifficult time that neurotypical
people may have in trying torealize what, what, what's going
(19:23):
on or what struggles or whatthoughts or just anything.
I mean, there is the reverse,you know, I or at least that's
kind of like what challenge Inoted was like, okay, I also
have, and perhaps I realizedlater on okay, yeah, part of
what is going on in my world isI don't understand the world
(19:48):
around me, the neurotypicalworld, and that is what
contributes to the exhaustionand the retreating and the
(20:10):
aspects of anxiety that areinduced by that.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Because the world is foreign to me Absolutely.
Tell us about the work you'redoing now at the university and
what that looks like, how yougot into that and how it's, you
know, changing that thosestudents um kind of
accessibility and accommodationsof what they can get at their
college now.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
Yeah, um yeah.
(20:58):
So, and I've given this somethought and one of the I think
it's so important to that, youknow, there is more awareness of
neurodiversity and things thatcan be, you know, um diagnosed,
um you know being you know,living in a rural area you know
that wasn't something that wason anyone's radar.
Um, I I think if there'ssomething that I feel like I
really wish I had in life wasthe community that comes around,
(21:21):
because I mean to know thatthere's someone else out there
like I mean not only onlysomeone, but a community out
there, not being alone, umhaving people that can
understand the things you say.
(21:42):
Um, that I mean that.
I mean I'm finding that to besuch a important aspect now in
my life.
I can't imagine how that wouldhave changed things or would
have like what effect that wouldhave been, and so I think the
(22:06):
role that I play best and, youknow, wish I had was mentorship,
and mentorship from someonethat understands a
neurodivergent thinking.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
So important.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
I think that's the key to success In the kind of
neurotypical world there is.
A lot of.
It is a lot about what's notsaid, things that are unsaid,
implied I take things tooliteral, but like it's the
(22:48):
things that aren't said andimplied that in the neurotypical
world, if you understand, that,leads to success.
But who's there if you don'tunderstand those?
And so I think that is key.
(23:09):
For that personally, for thatpersonally, I don't think that
in general the higher educationsystem is set up to embrace
neurodiversity.
There is a lack of training andinformation and I think that's
(23:32):
just kind of inherent.
So information and I thinkthat's just kind of inherent, so
you know.
But that's something I can, Ican make a contribution to.
For example, I'm the director ofthe planetarium and I wanted to
(23:53):
have a low sensory day and Ihave, you know, volunteers and
graduate students working in theplanetarium.
So one thing I could do was,you know, actually, and I worked
with someone who, if you havenot interviewed them, I mean
(24:13):
just thinking of it, you shoulda wonderful person that lives in
West Virginia, who not nearhere, a few hours away, but she
helped develop autism training.
Okay, that I, you know, thenhad students, you know, graduate
(24:38):
students and volunteers in thedepartment kind of go through
for when I had the low sensoryevent, just to know what to do
when this happens.
You know what, what?
What is a meltdown, what is ashutdown?
You know, what do you have inplace to make sure there's a
(25:04):
level of comfort?
You know, do?
you know, what to do whenthere's runners.
You know like there's a lot ofthings I didn't know about and I
thought, wow, this is reallygreat training, so at least the
very minimum in the planetarium.
My staff has gone through that.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
That's wonderful.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
So I mean, I feel like that's something a really
beneficial thing that I can do.
The person I work with you knowshe's an advocate and, you know
, produced this entire kind oflike you know, few hour training
thing and information for freefor us, which was just wonderful
(25:45):
, yeah, and so I do need to getyou in contact with her.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
I love that.
I would love that.
Thank you, and I was going tosay, I think, that Harry James
O'Kelly put us in touch.
Possibly she's my masterconnector.
She's like the muse that alwayswas the muse.
She's amazing I she sees thingsin people and this light turns
(26:16):
on above her head and she knowseverything that they can do to
make their lives better forthemselves and she doesn't want
anything out of it.
You know, she just loves togive the information and to help
lift other people up and Ithink that there's that she is
one special human being.
I love her, so shout out, harry, we, yeah, I'm so glad that we
were able to connect through her, and I think her son is, or
(26:36):
even three.
Two or three kids are up atWestern, are at Virginia, right,
west Virginia University.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
So so one of yeah, so so so one of her sons is.
I'm actually his mentor here.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Oh, that's so super.
He's doing great things andthat kid has a bright future.
So I'm really happy to hearthat.
Oh, that's wonderful, Anythingcoming up in the future that
you're looking forward toProjects, events, anything like
that that you're looking forwardto.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
Projects, events, anything like that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
My mind's all over the place.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
So it yeah, so, and this is the planning stages, but
(27:49):
I I love learning about whatstudents is like, what maybe
unique, uh, like skills andgifts they have, and can they
use that in a way that mayprovide opportunities that they
would not otherwise have.
And so there's a possibilitythat I will be working with a
(28:16):
student on a project in thehistory of astronomy based on
their have a very keen eye forcalligraphy.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
Um, and, and they are , you know, they're autistic,
they're part of the autismprogram here.
Um, and you know something Inoticed and then I'm like you
know, you know, is there a way,you know?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
would they be first?
Speaker 4 (28:51):
interested in in in kind of a project that I have
which is looking at historicaldocuments and helping kind of
transcribe them, and theyexpressed interest in that and
(29:20):
this provides an opportunity forpeople who otherwise just would
not have this kind ofopportunity to be engaged in
some sort of scientific research, like you know, would not
necessarily be recruited, yeah,and so I'm excited about that
possibility to do kind of someof that in the future as well.
(29:48):
Yeah, kind of taking advantageof what I learn all the time.
Right, if you're autistic, youdon't necessarily know
everything about autism and thedifferent expressions of that as
well.
And one thing that I've learnedto do and well, I think I need
(30:14):
to back up for just a secondbecause I wish I could just put
something out there into theworld and that is when you
embrace any diversity, when youembrace neurodiversity, that
benefits everyone and the thingsthat we can do to knock down
(30:42):
barriers actually benefitseveryone.
So one thing that I've beenworking towards and Harry Sun
that's here at WVU is helping mewith is going through old lab
(31:03):
materials for the astronomy laband just making sure that the
instructions are clear andunambiguous Wow.
From kind of a neurodiversityviewpoint.
Yeah, because I, you know,being very, I'm now very
(31:23):
cognizant and seeing where youknow my students are, where
challenges can be.
This is one that is where I canmake a big difference for some
of my autistic students and itabsolutely benefits everyone.
Absolutely Right Clarity,unambiguity that can benefit
(31:46):
everyone.
So you know, that is what I'mworking on this semester.
Is, you know, are the materialsthat are within this course?
So it's an old course.
I was here before I came here.
I want to just you know, I'mjust going to go through and
revise things and it's like am Imaking you know?
(32:09):
Is the material accessible toyou?
Know, to all?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Yeah, wonderful.
Well, it sounds like you'redoing some really important work
and working with really amazingindividuals, and being a mentor
is such a special opportunity.
It's such an honor to be ableto know that you are helping to
(32:37):
increase someone's you knowconfidence in themselves and in
their skills, and so I reallyjust praise you for that
wonderful, wonderful work andyou're doing there, and I'm look
forward to hearing more aboutthe autism program and and
(32:58):
introducing me to your friendthat is working on that.
That would be wonderful.
Um, that sounds like afascinating um, something
fascinating to talk about.
Really glad that we wereconnected and we're able to talk
today.
And for folks that are on theEast Coast and do have students
that are interested in, you know, university, there are some
(33:21):
amazing autism programs that arebeing put into place, and I
know that Harry James O'Kelly,for example, is out there
discovering them and bringingthem to light, to shed light on
them, for everyone, to get thoseresources available to them.
So please reach out for that, ifyou are looking for that, if
(33:45):
your child is looking for thatyour adult, I should say instead
of child you know are lookingfor those resources at their
college.
Please reach out, and if youneed ideas, you are probably
welcome to reach out to DrYbarra to get some support as
well.
So, yeah, it's been so nice toget to know you today.
(34:08):
I'm just going to quickly putyour website up if anybody is
interested in reaching out andsupporting and, you know, having
a discussion aboutneurodiversity, accessibility
and how they can provide moreopportunities for their students
at any age, probably because Ithink there's a big discussion
(34:31):
to be had, uh, and I think thatthe earlier we can help to teach
these accommodations, to getthese trainings in place, the
better.
Uh, and then moving forward,but I really do like the idea of
you having your grad studentsand, um, the other um, employees
or whatever from theplanetarium get that training.
(34:54):
I think that that was such agreat idea to do that.
So, yeah, great work you'redoing out there.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Thank you, I really appreciate it.
I mean, I'm just I feel sofortunate to start being kind of
connected into this community,because everyone that I'm being
connected is doing great work aswell, and to know it's out
(35:20):
there, to know about the otherresources that are because
there's a lot of work to that.
There's a lot of work still tobe done.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yep, exactly, we're in it together Now we know that.
You know here we are teammembers.
We've got a new team member onboth of our teams.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Thank you.
Yeah, absolutely Great team tobe on.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yep, absolutely.
It's so nice to get to know youtoday.
Thank you so much for your time, for your vulnerability and
sharing your story and for thewonderful work that you're
providing for the community andreally giving back, and that
says a lot about you as a person.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
Thank you Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
In the heart of a city.
She's shining bright.
Oh yeah, stories of love andcourage all throughout the night
, her voice resonating an anthemfor all through the trials and
(37:06):
the trials.
Thank you.
Life.
She stands for family.
I've kissed more.
Movement of compassion.
Ways will soar.
Podcast together.
Symphony on support in lifechanging rapport.
She's changing the world foryou with a heart that's fierce
(37:27):
and strong.
Empathy's melody in a journeywe all belong.
Through her eyes, a visionclear.
Together we rise, sheddingfears.
In every heart, she plants theseed of understanding and love
(38:06):
for dearly me, thank you.
In a journey we all belong.
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