December 6, 2024 • 51 mins
Caron Kipping, a renowned expert, private IDVA and divorce coach in the field of domestic abuse, joins Tamsin to shed light on a critical issue that affects many lives. Throughout their conversation, Caron shares her invaluable insights on the role of Independent Domestic Violence Advocates (IDVAs) and how they collaborate with various agencies to support high-risk survivors.
Caron Kipping
Caron Kipping is based in South Buckinghamshire – Author of ‘Recognition to Recovery – How to leave your abusive partner behind for good!’ she is a survivor of domestic abuse, has worked in the sector for 17 years and has her own busy practice as one of the leading Divorce Coaches in the UK. Caron offers practical help and guidance to clients who are separating from abusive and controlling partners – guiding them through the legal process and way beyond.
https://caronkippingcoaching.com/
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
Smart Divorce
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpedyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:55):
Hello and welcome to today'sepisode of the Smart Divorce
Podcast and I'm very happy towelcome back one of our previous
and very popular guests, CaronKipping.
Hi, Caron, thank you forjoining me today.
Caron Kipping (01:08):
Thank
So Caron is a survivor ofdomestic abuse and a master
practitioner -can't read today -master practitioner of divorce
cases, specialising in abusiveand coercive relationships.
She's worked for many yearswithin the charity sector,
overseeing a team of IDVAs -we'll talk more about that
shortly - and managing high riskcases of domestic abuse.
(01:31):
Caron is also the author of thefabulous book which I recommend
all the time, called recognitionto recovery, how to leave your
abusive past behind for good,and is passionate about raising
awareness of coercive control.
So I'm massively lookingforward to this conversation
because I have spoken to Caronmany times and including am
(02:07):
incredibly naive about this area.
But I'm trying to learn muchmore because I work with people
all of the time who are victims,survivors of domestic abuse,
who many, many times are onlyactually coming to the
realization that they've been inan abusive relationship after
they've already left.
But I want to try and speaktoday about some of the support
(02:32):
that's available to women andmen in this situation.
So we're going to talk aboutIDVAs today.
So first of all, obvious,obvious, basic question what is
an IDVA?
So first of all, I would like to say thank you
for choosing this as a topic,because this is actually a
(02:53):
question I get asked a lot.
You know what is an IDVA or anIDVA?
You know, however you want tosay it, um, you know.
Even police officers, socialworkers, housing officers
sometimes say you know.
Even police officers, socialworkers, housing officers
sometimes say you know what's anIDFA.
And I have to roll my eyes andsay, well, you should really
know what an IDVA is.
But anyway, so an IDVA standsfor Independent Domestic
(03:18):
Violence Advocate, so it's aprofessional qualification.
You have to do quite a lot ofwork.
You have to usually be workingwith high risk survivors of
domestic abuse, usually withinthe charitable sector for an
organisation like Women's Aid orRefuge or one of those kind of
(03:40):
charitable specialistorganisations.
When you do the course and thenyou have to do quite a lot of
work and case studies etc, andum, then you get your
certificate, but yourprofessional qualification at
the end and the the role of anIDFA really is to reduce the
(04:02):
risk as quickly as possible forhigh-risk survivors of domestic
abuse, men or women, right,people that are at kind of
imminent risk of danger fromtheir partner or their
ex-partner or a family member.
So it doesn't necessarily haveto be a direct partner, it could
(04:24):
be a parent, it could be asibling, you know.
So it's all those differentdynamics of domestic abuse that
we are trained in, in dealingwith, and so we're really the
specialists in terms of beingable to recognize a serious risk
of harm.
Uh, safety planning as afollow-up to that, I'm really
(04:50):
looking at where that survivoris in terms of their
understanding of domestic abuseand understanding what they want
from the relationship.
You know, are they ready toseparate?
Are they not?
Do they still feel like theylove that person?
You know?
So we do a lot of ummotivational interviewing, so a
(05:11):
lot of um work trying to getthem to a recognize the risk
that they're at, understand thedynamics of their relationship
and come to terms with you knowum the fact that it's not a
healthy relationship,essentially, and to get them to
(05:33):
think about making decisions andprioritizing their needs above
the needs of the abuser.
Okay, um, and also looking atsafeguarding.
So IDVA's traditionally work inpartnership with other
professional agencies so theymight link in with police or
(05:53):
social services or health orhousing.
So it's really looking at thewhole picture.
So you know, if you go to asolicitor, a solicitor will give
you advice based on the legalaspects.
You know what your rights arelegally.
You know what you can do interms of civil law, criminal law
.
But they might not necessarilytake into consideration other
(06:17):
things that are going on in yourlife.
You know you might have areally limited support network.
You might have children thathave got additional needs.
You might not feel like you canmove to the other end of the
country, you know, to go into arefuge and helping that survivor
(06:46):
, weigh up the pros and cons ofthe options and really looking
at empowering them to make theirown choices, to take control
back over their life and to makedecisions that are right for
them.
And, at the same time, an advertis an advocate, so we are able
to speak up for that person ifthey're not able to do so.
So again, traditionally wewould sit in on child protection
(07:09):
meetings, safeguarding meetings.
We might contact the police ontheir behalf to get updates, you
know.
So it's really being that keyperson that can coordinate all
of the agencies that might berelevant for that person and
create this whole support team,if you like, to help reduce the
risk and support that survivoras much as possible.
(07:30):
So a NIDVA can be really usefulin terms of contacting other
professionals that might helpyou, rather than that survivor
having to do all the legwork andmake numerous calls and retell
their story over and over againto each individual person.
And sometimes, when you get anadvocate speaking up on your
(07:52):
behalf, other professionals willlisten right, whereas if it's a
survivor, sometimes it's hardfor them to articulate how they
feel it's.
It's hard for them to speak upand find the confidence to do
that and they, you know,particularly when that
relationship is coercive andthere's not a lot of tangible
evidence, it can quite often bebe lost.
(08:15):
You know, it's just like oneperson's word against the other.
So, in in terms of what an IVVAdoes, it's really looking at
risk first, safety planning thenlooking at what support is
needed for that individual.
What do they want to happen?
You know?
Do they want the relationshipto end?
Do they want to move out?
(08:35):
Do they want the other personto move out?
What kind of support do theyneed?
What support have they alreadygot?
What are struggling with?
What's going well?
So it's it's looking at all ofthat and keeping in regular
contact with that person so thatthey know they've got that
support.
Um, and you know again,traditionally most IDVAs work
(08:59):
within the charitable sector.
Now, this sounds great.
You know in theory that youknow people can access this for
support.
Now, the downside is that it isa bit of a postcode lottery.
It depends on where you live asto what support you can
(09:19):
actually access because they arecharitable organizations.
We've lost a lot of fundingover the years and you know
services change all the time, sothe the types of support that
they can offer does vary fromplace to place and time to time,
so you do have to try and keepon on top of what's available in
(09:42):
your area if you're aprofessional working with
clients like this.
Now, some services will be ableto offer support for high risk
survivors.
Some will be able to offersupport for high risk survivors
and, you know, those at mediumrisk where the risk is not so
evident but they're still havinga lot of challenges.
(10:05):
Some will be able to offersupport groups, which are great,
right, but they might only beable to offer support groups for
specific types of cases.
You know, it depends on howthey're funded and, um, an IDVA
traditionally will work withsomebody quite intensely for
about 12 weeks and you wouldhope that within that 12 weeks
(10:28):
you would be able to reduce therisk down quite significantly
and get them all the help thatthey need.
And then off they go and, youknow, try and manage the rest of
their situation with a bit ofongoing support, maybe from
other organisations, otherprofessionals.
(10:49):
Now I started, I diversifiedfrom being an IDVA working
within the charitable sector tobeing a divorce coach with that
IDVA experience, and the reasonwhy I did that was because there
is a gap.
You know, there is a gap in thesupport that is available for
(11:09):
people.
You know everything isn't doneand dusted within 12 weeks quite
often, you know, you know whatit's like.
No, no.
When you're going throughfinancial proceedings, when
you're going through familycourt, that takes months, you
know, sometimes it can take acouple of years, and so that
(11:30):
person needs that ongoingsupport.
But the charitable sector can'tnecessarily offer that because
they just don't have thecapacity to do that.
So that's where my coachingservices and peer support groups
, you know, came in and, as anIDVA, now the law has changed to
allow IDVAs to be able tosupport survivors within the
(11:55):
family court, to be able to sitin court with them and to be
able to offer that quiet adviceand guidance and make sure that
they feel more supported in thatsituation.
However, again the downside isis IDVAs within the charitable
sector really can't offer thatright now because they just
(12:18):
don't have capacity.
You know they are managing 25cases usually at a time as a
minimum, okay, and they are highrisk cases, the very intense
work.
They don't have capacity to sitfor a whole day in court or
three to five days forfact-finding hearing.
You know they just don't havethat capacity to do that.
(12:39):
So that's where my experiencecan be really useful, because I
can do that for clients, youknow.
Unfortunately, you know, noteverybody's going to be able to
access it because it is a paidfor service.
But I try and keep those costsreasonable to make sure that
people can access that support.
(13:00):
But it is a really it is areally valuable service and I
really wish that more IDFAswould be able to do that.
I think there is going to besome funding coming available to
train up I think, 300 IDFAsacross the country for family
court support, and most of thoseIDFAs will be coming from the
(13:20):
charitable sector, which will begreat because, you know, I just
think it's great that they'veput this in place, but they
haven't really thought through,thought through the
practicalities of how that'sgoing to happen so they
definitely need to invest morefunding into the charitable
sector if that's going to work.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
(13:40):
So that's quite a new thingthat IDVAs are allowed to do
that.
But that's essentially whatIDVAs do, and I've still got
links with Safeguarding and withmy local domestic abuse sector,
so we kind of cross-refer inand out and I can refer into
professional meetings forhigh-risk clients to look at
(14:05):
getting that multi-agencysupport.
Tamsin Caine (14:07):
Yes, absolutely.
So many questions just fromwhat you've just said, so I want
to start with a relativelybasic question how are we
defining risk level?
So what does high risk mean?
Caron Kipping (14:24):
Yes, so you define risk level by what does
what?
What?
What does high risk mean?
Yeah, so you define risk levelby um, there's a?
There's a risk assessment toolthat we use as it was.
It's called the dash riskassessment.
So domestic abuse, stalking andharassment risk assessment.
It's the same tool that mostpolice officers use.
Some forces have changed to adifferent tool, but
(14:47):
traditionally we've all usedthis same tool of reference,
really, and some social workersare trained to use it as well.
Basically, it's a set of 24questions that we ask, and these
questions are based on research.
You know they are predictors ofserious harm.
(15:08):
You know, because perpetratorsof domestic abuse all do very
similar things.
You know they all say and dovery similar things and there
are certain things that theywill do, certain behaviours that
they have that will lead on tomore serious harm.
So they are very clearpredictors.
(15:30):
You know, if you look at womenthat have died through domestic
abuse, there are certain thingsthat happen in the lead up to
that and that are very commonacross all these cases.
So what we're trying to do iswe're trying to predict what
level of harm a person is at.
Okay, so we tick the boxes yesand no, all right, and we also
(15:54):
bring professional judgment intoit.
You, what do we feel?
As if there's a risk factors.
So there might be certainthings that a person experiences
, or you know something in theirbackground that makes us
believe that they are at seriousrisk of harm risk of palm, and
(16:22):
uh, it's.
If you're looking at the numberof tick boxes, somebody that
ticks 14 out of 24 would beconsidered high risk, right?
Anything above 14 and above ishigh risk, right.
Anything kind of between 8 and14 is medium risk, all right,
and then standard risk would bebelow that.
Most people generally fall intothe standard risk category, but
(16:43):
there are certain people thatwill fall into the high risk
category and they are definitelyat risk of significant harm.
So they definitely need moresupport than I could offer as a
coach.
They need safeguarding help,they need help from police help.
They need help from police.
Maybe they need help fromhousing or you know.
Tamsin Caine (17:01):
They need more intense support to make sure
that they're not at risk yeah,okay, wow, um, okay, so we're
you know high risk is prettydamn serious.
Caron Kipping (17:13):
It's about asking those, um key questions to
tease out information from that,because that survivor doesn't
necessarily know what level ofrisk they're at.
They might be scared, buteverybody's perception of being
scared is different, so you haveto drill down a little bit and
ask really key questions.
So, okay, if you're scared,what are you scared of?
(17:35):
Are you worried that they'regoing to harm you?
Have they made any threats toyou before?
Have they got access to weaponsat all?
You know?
Are they financially abusive?
Have they ever threatened totake the children from you or
what you know?
Have they ever threatenedsuicide?
Have they ever threatened tokill you?
So real kind of key questions,yeah.
(17:55):
And then it's not just askingthose key questions, it's
teasing out even moreinformation to get a real sense
of what's happened in the past,you know, and what might come in
the future.
Tamsin Caine (18:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
Does the questionnaire alsolink to legal aid and does it
also link to how the police workwith that, with that person,
how what their involvement is?
Caron Kipping (18:24):
yes, so, um, you can, you wouldn't.
You wouldn't get um a copy ofthe risk assessment as such from
uh, an IDFA that works within acharitable organisation.
It's a confidential document,you know, and it should be right
.
But what that IDVA can do isthey can write a supporting
(18:46):
letter for legal aid purposes tosay this person has come to our
service, we've professionallyrisk assessed them, we believe
that they are a survivor ofdomestic abuse or coercive
control.
We we're happy to support theirlegal aid application right,
that's one of the pieces ofevidence that you can use to
(19:06):
support your legal aidapplication.
I can't do that because I'm anindependent, if I don't work for
an organization and theparameters at the moment are
only for charitableorganisations.
Okay, for police.
Police have specialist domesticabuse officers, so they have
(19:29):
departments that solely dealwith domestic abuse, and for you
to access support andprotection from those police
officers, you do generally haveto come under the high risk
bracket, because there aredifferent things that the police
can do to help you stay safe.
They can offer you alarms, theyhave an app now where you can
(19:52):
directly upload information andevidence to the app, etc.
Directly upload information andevidence to the app, etc.
They will have those speciallytrained officers who have that
extra knowledge and experienceabout domestic abuse to help you
.
If you don't come into thatbracket, then you tend to be
signposted to Victims First orVictim Support or those kind of
(20:14):
organisations who can offer youa little bit of ongoing support,
um and practical help andsignposting
Tamsin Caine (20:25):
wow , there's so much to this, isn't
there?
um, so it sounds to me likecontacting a charitable
organization who has it workingwithin it.
Is that it's pretty importantwhen you feel like you've been
in an abusive relationship.
That's almost the first call.
(20:47):
Is that kind of what yourthought is?
Caron Kipping (20:50):
Yeah, definitely.
I always recommend for peopleto to contact them because it's
free, for a start.
It doesn't cost you a penny.
They are the specialists, youknow they.
They get it.
There's not going to be anyjudgment when you call up or
when you email them and you askfor help.
Right, they're going to do therisk assessment, so they're
(21:12):
going to have that professionalknowledge and understanding
about how to best support youand then they will be able to
offer you whatever appropriatesupport they feel you need.
Ok, so it's about opening upyour support network and getting
as much support as possible.
A lot of people feel like, oh,I shouldn't go to a domestic
(21:34):
abuse organisation because youknow there's other people that
are much more in need than I am.
You know, I hear that a lot andI'm like no, go to them.
That's what they're there for.
They're there to help you.
If they can't help you, theywill tell you All right, but ask
.
There's no harm in asking.
Is there?
(21:54):
Absolutely.
Go to them ask get thatvalidation from them.
You know that everything you'reworried about you're right to
be worried about yeah, get thatsupport, get that emotional
support, get that practical help, if they can offer it to you.
Tamsin Caine (22:14):
Yeah, definitely so would you.
Is it best to start with thedomestic abuse helpline?
Is it best to start withwomen's aid?
If you're female, is it best tostart with your local service?
Like where, where shouldsomebody go first?
Caron Kipping (22:40):
so you can ring the domestic national helpline,
that has the database of all ofthe domestic abuse organizations
, um, those organizations andthe support.
Again, you know they do changefrom time to time.
So you can you know.
If you're not sure where tolook, that's an easy thing to do
is to just google the nationaldomestic violence helpline.
It's open 24 hours a day.
You might have to keep callingto get through because obviously
it's inundated um, but you cando that.
They will essentially signpostyou anyway to your local
(23:03):
domestic abuse organization.
So if you just google lowdomestic abuse support in
whatever town you live in, itwill usually come up with your
local organization.
Might not be called women's aid, it might be called something
else, might be called solace orum, you know other names of
(23:25):
organizations, but it will tellyou who is in your area or it
will give you the link to thelocal council website, which
usually has a domestic abusepage on there.
All right, it tells you who tocontact because for some cities
as well, they they've broken upinto different geographical
areas.
So, say, you live in westSussex compared to east Sussex,
(23:48):
there might be two differentorganizations.
So, yeah, um, just google,really, and and look and and see
what you can find out and thencall them or email them and just
say this is my situation.
You know, I feel I need somesupport.
How can you help?
And they'll take it from there.
Tamsin Caine (24:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
And something that you saidbefore about people feeling that
you said that when somebodycontacts a service they're not
going to get any judgment, thatwhen somebody contacts a service
they're not going to get anyjudgment.
And I just wanted to touch onthis because this is something
that I get all of the time ispeople saying I feel so stupid
(24:26):
that I've let this happen.
And I just wanted to talk onthat for a bit because that
breaks my heart, because abusersare subtle, they're devious,
they're generally coercive, theyknow what they're doing to
manipulate the situation and,you know, nobody who speaks me
(24:51):
about their experience is goingto receive judgment of me
thinking like they should haveknown better and they should
have worked it out earlier,because that you know we're all
human and that these abusers arefollowing a pattern, as you've
said it's it's kind of alwaysdown the same process, isn't it?
(25:12):
sojust wondered if you could talk
on that for a bit, because Ijust think that's very important
,
Caron Kipping (25:17):
sure, before I do , I just want to go back quickly
before I forget, right, becausemen do find it difficult to
reach out for support.
And again, just google domesticabuse support for men in my
area and it will come up lots ofdomestic abuse organizations do
support men now as well aswomen and have very good support
(25:40):
.
So definitely go to them, or youcan look at the mankind uk
website.
They have a helpline too.
They can call them, but yeahthere definitely is support for
men out there.
Now they don't feel like theyhave to struggle on their own.
Tamsin Caine (25:59):
Oh perfect, thank you! I think that's really
important because I think, in away, men find it even more
difficult than women to comeforward and and it almost feels
like they're just like sayingsomething against their gender.
If they come forward, like theyshould be able to cope with it,
this shouldn't be happening tothem and it's you know?
(26:20):
I think probably we don't.
We know even less of the extentof domestic abuse against men
than we do about women, becausethere's there's a fear of coming
forward.
So, yeah, thank you for thatthere is that and a lot.
Caron Kipping (26:33):
I mean, I've definitely seen an increase in
male clients coming forward,which is good, which is good.
It's good that they're comingforward to get that support.
It's sad but it's good.
Yeah, I know it's sad but it'sgood.
And a lot of men will quiteoften prefer to come to somebody
like a coach rather than go toa domestic abuse organisation
(26:55):
that predominantly supportswomen, then go to a domestic
abuse organisation thatpredominantly supports women.
You know, it's just thatfeeling of having that
confidential support, just on aone-to-one basis.
I don't know if men just seemto prefer that sometimes, but
there are great organisationsout there that can support men.
There are, unfortunately, veryfew men-only organisations.
(27:18):
Unfortunately very few men-onlyorganisations, you know, again,
for funding reasons and allthat kind of stuff.
But Mankind UK are a greatorganisation who are doing a lot
of campaign for men.
So, going back to what you weretalking about, with people
feeling like they should havebeen able to spot the sign
(27:41):
sooner, it's very common tocarry that guilt and to feel the
weight of, you know, being theperson to make the decision and
breaking up the family, etc.
But yeah, nobody has a crystalball, right?
Right, you know, you only knowwhat you know.
At the time when you went intothe relationship, you didn't
(28:03):
know it was going to turn outlike this, otherwise you
wouldn't have stayed in it.
Right, you know you would havegot out sooner.
But it feeds in over time andusually by the time you realise
what's happening, you are tiedtogether with that person.
You have a life together, youhave a home, you have shared
friends, you have childrentogether, and then it's very
(28:25):
difficult to leave, um, so yeah,it's not uncommon to think, oh,
I should have left sooner orI'm so stupid.
You know you're not stupid, youknow you, you want to believe
the best in the person, right?
you want, you don't want toaccept that this person is
intentionally hurting you.
(28:46):
You know whether that'semotionally or physically.
You know you want to.
You want to try and do yourbest to fix things to keep your
relationship going to, to makeit happier and better and all
the rest of it.
But of course you're not theproblem, so you know it doesn't
matter what you do it's notgoing to work.
Um, yeah, it's a.
It's a process that you gothrough, you know, to get to
(29:09):
that point where you realizethat this relationship isn't is
not good, and for some peoplethat takes many years, for some
people it takes a few months.
You know everybody'severybody's different.
But you need to let go of thatguilt for not spotting it sooner
, because it's not your fault.
Tamsin Caine (29:31):
Yeah abosolutely.
And and there there are thingsthat have been happening that
that you don't necessarily spot,or you you have been coerced
into believing that these thingsare being done for the, for
your good and the family's good.
So don't worry about the money.
I will look after it.
(29:51):
Don't, don't bother yourselfwith it, you don't need to know
they are expert liars, expertmanipulators.
Caron Kipping (30:00):
Uh, they know exactly what to say and do to
keep you under their control.
Really, you know, because it'sall based on having power and
control over you and they createthis culture of fear and
dependence in your relationship.
So they want you to believethat you know they're right and
(30:21):
you're wrong.
They want you to protectyourself.
They want to destroy yourconfidence and your self-esteem.
You know, and they will dowhatever it takes.
Tamsin Caine (30:31):
Yeah, it's just really saddening and frustrating
that people, people say also,um, so, as if if it's so
responsible for what's happenedto them and they just it's, it's
just, it's such a shame, um,okay, so, um, accessing givers
(30:51):
is only available by a charity.
It sort of feels fromeverything that we've talked
about so far that it would bereally useful if some people in
the wider world could do it fortraining and be available on a
private, like on a, to have thatservice, you know, if they have
(31:13):
the funds available which, aswe talked about, isn't everybody
but to have that available forpeople to go training, to be
able to train and be able to dothat work in the wider world if
there was the availability offunding to pay for it.
Are there any plans for that tohappen?
Caron Kipping (31:31):
Not that I know of.
Unfortunately, the only plansare, like I said, to fund the
IDVAs in the charitable sector,to do that work within the
family court.
But you know that's 300.
And you know how much work thereis and how much need there is
for that kind of support and,yeah, I can offer it in court,
(31:56):
but I'm one person and there'sonly so many court hearings that
I can attend and I, you know,I'm only in the southeast, so,
you know, for people in thenorth there's definitely a need
and, you know, more courthearings are moving away from
virtual to in person now again,which again is going to limit
(32:18):
the the ability for iffas toattend.
So, yeah, it's, it's definitelyan area that needs to be looked
at yeah, and it's, it's.
Tamsin Caine (32:29):
It strikes me that it's not just in court hearings
, but actually having thatperson there to hold your hand.
Caron Kipping (32:36):
Yeah, that longer term support there's definitely
a need for it.
There's definitely a need forlonger term support.
I've had some of my clients forfive years.
You know when clients come tome for coaching there's no
closure day, right.
You don't do six sessions andthen go away and carry on with
your life, becausepost-separation abuse goes on
(32:58):
for years.
And you know I work with peoplewhen the court system is
finished, when the divorce isover.
You know, when they've movedhouse and they've moved on.
I still work with them becausethere are still issues that crop
up from time to time and myclients still have wobbly
moments and they still feelexhausted with the constant
(33:20):
barrage of abuse that comestheir way.
You know we're just coming tothe end of summer holidays
that's been a nightmare for someof my clients and they've got
court orders and childarrangement orders and what have
you.
But again these mastermanipulators.
You know their behavior doesn'tchange.
It doesn't change just becausethey're out of court.
(33:41):
It doesn't change just becausethe risk is reduced it.
You know they are who they areand all the time, while you've
got children with that person oryou've got some connection and
some link, they still want tohave that control over you.
Tamsin Caine (33:56):
Yeah, absolutely, Post-separation abuse is just,
it's unfathomably terrifying.
But, how you know, you kind ofassume oh well, the divorce is
done, the court order is made.
But these are people who don'tcare about court orders.
They're not interested in whata court order tells them they
(34:17):
can or can't, or have to orhaven't to do.
It's not relevant.
They're not going to abide by apiece of paper from a court.
Caron Kipping (34:25):
Unfortunately, and, to be honest, the IDVAs
that work in the charitablesector are not always the
experts in family court stuff,because that stuff happens after
their cases have closed,whereas you know, with family
court stuff you really have gotto have that knowledge about
what to put into your childarrangement order, what you
(34:48):
should be asking for in terms ofyour finances and that.
And that's where they needpeople like you and myself and
you know people that work withinthat that kind of
post-separation arena to givethem that specialist advice,
because if you don't know whatyou should be putting in your
child arrangement order, if youdon't know what you should be
(35:10):
challenging in terms of finances, you can really come unstuck
later on and it can make yourlife a lot harder.
Tamsin Caine (35:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, it feels like there's a,there's a massive gap, that that
new well, I mean not that Ididn't think that before I
started talking to you today butit feels like there's an even
bigger gap where something couldbe done if only the training
were available, kind of on awider scale, because I know
there are many of usprofessionals and we're going to
(35:43):
speak to quite a lot of themover the course of this series
who passionately want to seechanges made and want to support
survivors, passionately want tosee changes made and want to
support survivors, but in someways are hands tied just from a
lack of training and the lack ofability to support these
(36:05):
survivors in the way that theypotentially could.
So, yeah, another one to add tothe list of changes we'd like
to see.
Yeah, yeah, the long list.
Oh, it's a very long list.
Tell me a bit about um, about ifand obviously no names and so
on, but a bit about how youmight um support somebody who
(36:29):
was, who was, in court as anipper, because I can only
imagine that courts are a prettyterrifying place to be.
In the first place, presumablythey are facing the perpetrator
and being in the same room asthem, potentially for the first
time for a long time.
How do you support them, andare they generally also
(36:53):
supported by solicitors andbarristers, or are they
generally litigants in person?
Caron Kipping (36:58):
so it could be either.
So I support clients who have alegal team, uh, and clients
that are representing themselvesa lot of clients representing
themselves now because of thefinancial abuse and the fact
that they struggle to accesslegal aid and they struggle to
afford legal help.
So quite often they do end uphaving to represent themselves
(37:21):
in hearings and that can be yeah, might mightily scary when
you're going to try and stand upfor yourself and find your
voice against the person that'sabused, you and also within a
system that you don't reallyunderstand.
You know you've never probablybeen to court in your life
before and all of a suddenyou're trying to fight for your
(37:42):
children and fight, you know,for finances, to to put a roof
over your head and and survive,right.
So these are important, bigthings that you're fighting for.
So, um, if I've got a clientwho's got a legal team, it can
work really well because thelegal team can focus on their
(38:04):
job and doing what they need todo in terms of standing up and
advocating for their client, andI can support the client with
their emotions and help keepthem grounded and calm and do
all the explaining about what'shappening.
So that can work really well,and also in the past I've
(38:24):
managed to support clients with.
You know, when they've had tomake big decisions on the day
you know they've had to thinkabout on the day you know
they've had to think about.
Okay, right, let's draft thischild arrangement order now.
You know what do we need, whatdo we want to put in it.
I can then help the barristerwrite it by saying, well, these
are the common, you know umpoints of conflict that my
(38:48):
clients typically have.
You know the typical types ofpost-separation abuse.
So maybe word it like this orput this bit of detail in it and
that will ensure that, you know, hopefully that limits those
points of conflict.
And you know, and the childarrangement actually works
better for that, for that client, so we can work as a real team
(39:10):
with that client.
And if clients are representingthemselves, then, yeah, it's
nice to be able to have somebodysit beside you in court, you
know, so I can contact the courtbeforehand and make sure
they've got their specialmeasures.
So make sure they maybe havegot a separate entrance to the
court from the abuser.
(39:31):
Make sure they've got aseparate waiting room.
Make sure they've got aseparate entrance to the court
from the abuser, make surethey've got a separate waiting
room, make sure they've got ascreening court, and sit right
beside the survivor Explaineverything that's happening.
If they don't understandsomething, if they're not sure
about any of the jargon thatgets used in court jargon that
(39:56):
gets used in court um, I cangive them quiet bits of advice
in court and encourage them.
You know, uh, we use lots oflavender spray and things like
that to just kind of calm thenervous system a little bit,
make sure that they're never ontheir own at any point.
You know we go to the toilettogether, we go to lunch
together.
I literally stick to them likeglue and then we can have a
(40:17):
debrief afterwards.
You know how's it gone, whatwent well, what didn't go so
well, you know what are the nextsteps.
So they're really clear onwhat's happening and I write
comprehensive notes as we gothrough the hearing and then
type them up afterwards so thenthey can go away and digest it
right.
Yeah, because it's really hardto pick up on everything that's
(40:41):
happening in court when you'retrying to speak up for yourself.
You're trying to listen to theother side, you're nervous
anyway.
Tamsin Caine (40:48):
Um, so to have somebody that's there listening,
picking up on things, doing abit of that work for you,
writing it down, so you don'tforget, you know you've got
really clear, comprehensivenotes, it can really help yeah,
absolutely, and I think one ofthe things that the clients in
(41:09):
this position have said to me isthat their fear is around not
being believed because they incourt, because they have been a
victim of abuse, come acrossperhaps more timid, more meek,
less confident of what they'resaying, and the perpetrator is
(41:34):
going to come across as veryconfident, very likable, um,
very aware of what they'resaying.
Uh, they probably have a moreexpensive legal team in many,
many cases that they they'rekind of presenting their case as
the truth, be all and end all,and because of their nature and
(41:58):
their lies and the way that theycoerce the victim, survivor
often feels that they're notgoing to be believed by the
judge, by whoever else is in theroom, and that they're going to
lose out because of that.
Is there anything that you canrecommend to help that person
(42:20):
who's going into the court,who's the victim's survivor can
do to reassure them, to put themin a better position, other
than having you by their side,which you know, if we could
multiply you several hundredtimes, we would do?
Caron Kipping (42:37):
It is a very difficult situation and
sometimes you know the abuserscan come across as very charming
you know, sometimes they canlose their rag in court, you
know, and when they're backedinto a corner or they're
challenged, their true coloursreally can come out.
So sometimes they can tripthemselves up, you know, and
when they're backed into acorner or they're challenged,
(42:58):
their true colors really cancome out.
So sometimes they can tripthemselves up.
You know, and I think forsurvivors, it is just really
about being brave and realizingthis is your best shot to get
what you need for the nextcouple of years or whatever, you
know, however long you'reyou're you're looking at here in
(43:18):
terms of your children, interms of your finances.
You've got to dig deep, you'vegot to be brave and you've got
to find that inner strength fromsomewhere to to stand up for
what is right, to stand up forwhat you believe in, to find
your voice to challenge and saydo you know what?
I'm not scared of you anymore.
(43:39):
Right, I am going to stand up.
I am going to tell the world,you know what you've done.
I am going to, you know, fightfor my children.
I am going to fight for myselfnow, right, right, because if
you don't, you know, the chancesare they might just believe the
other side.
You know, quite often it is oneperson's word against the other
.
(43:59):
Facts are absolutely key.
So the more evidence you have,the more facts you have, the
better.
It is absolutely about tryingto stay calm and focused, right,
trying not to let the emotionsoverwhelm you, because it's
natural to be emotional, it'snatural to feel scared and
(44:21):
worried and panicked and all ofthose things.
But if you let those emotionsoverwhelm you, it's not going to
help you.
All right, and this is your onechance to to do your best.
Okay, and you have to go inthere thinking positive.
Even if the last court hearingdidn't go so well, you've got to
go back into the next courthearing thinking this is a fresh
(44:41):
start.
Might even be the same judge,right, but you've got to go in
there with a positive mindsetfrom the beginning.
And if things don't go so wellfor you, you've got to think
right, okay, they've not gone sowell, but what can I do now?
How do I deal with it?
How do I work around it?
How do I make it better?
Tamsin Caine (45:01):
yeah, absolutely lavender spray.
Lavender sprays are good
Caron Kipping (45:11):
Oh, I go through loads of lavender.
Lavender, and another top tipis get a stress ball as well,
you know or a makeup sponge orsomething that you can squeeze
or fidget with Put it in yourpocket.
Nobody knows it's there.
Right, If you start to feel abit stressed, a bit emotional,
just keep opening and closingyour hand like that in your
pocket, right?
Nobody knows what's happeningand the reason why you open and
(45:32):
close your hand all the time isit distracts you all right from
what's going on all right.
It grounds your emotions alittle bit because you're
focusing on that.
Open, close, open, close, open,close right, and it just takes
the edge off okay, it's just areally simple thing that can
just help that stop thatoverwhelm right yeah, but if you
(45:53):
do get overwhelmed.
You know you're a human being,you're not a robot.
All right, just try to take afew deep breaths, right?
Or have a glass of water.
Just take a pause, take aminute and then get back on it
yeah, absolutely a bit.
Tamsin Caine (46:08):
Meditation, potentially practice breathing,
all those sorts of relaxationtechniques are going to help put
you in the right place because,as you say, frightening as it
is, you do have one chance, andthis is about trying to get this
right for the rest of your life.
If you're talking aboutfinances, it's getting the right
(46:30):
outcome for you and you want tofight calmly?
Yeah, for all this?
I think yeah, and we're comingto the end of our time together,
sadly.
It's been fabulous talking toyou.
Have you got anything you wantto add before, before we go?
Um?
Caron Kipping (46:49):
I suppose just to give people hope.
All right.
You know we talk about a lot ofchallenges and a lot of
negatives.
You know that come with leavingthese relationships.
They are not easy to leave.
You know, people that arecontrolling do not give up that
control easily.
Of course they're not going tomake it easy for you, right, but
(47:10):
it is possible, okay.
And if you're going throughcourt, you know whatever happens
you can deal with it Right.
There is life afterwards.
You can absolutely make abetter life.
You know you don't have to putup with this kind of behavior
(47:32):
and there's no point thinking,oh, should I have stayed because
it would have been better?
No, it wouldn't.
It would have just got worseover time.
So you know, cut your losses,deal with it.
You know it's a bit likeripping off a plaster.
You just have to do it and bedone with it and get yourself
out the other side and then youcan start healing, you can start
rebuilding whatever that lookslike absolutely and we are.
Tamsin Caine (47:54):
You know we've talked about post-separation
abuse, but it is still betterbeing away than than being in
that relationship and that,absolutely, it is important.
Caron Kipping (48:05):
I've got lots of clients who you know still
really struggle.
But if you ask them you knowwhat is would you prefer life
now compared to what it was likebefore?
100 they would still have itnow right rather than than how
it was before, because eventhough there are difficult
moments, they're just momentsright, it's not constant, it's
(48:27):
not all the time, and they usesome strategies and they have
some boundaries and things totry and make sure that that
post-separation abuse stillallows them to to get on with
their life yeah, absolutely,karen.
Tamsin Caine (48:41):
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Um, if you're struggling withanything that we've talked about
today, there will be links andget hold of karen and we'll put
the domestic abuse helpline linkthere.
Just, please do reach out tosomebody, because we know that
there is.
There is help out there.
Um, but thank you for listening.
(49:01):
Caron, thank you for joining me, and if you have found today's
episode useful, please do giveit a five star review, because
it means that we can help morepeople and get these episodes
out to more people who need them.
So thank you very much, hi, andI hope you enjoyed that episode
(49:23):
of the smart divorce podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website, www.
smartdivorce.
co.
wwwsmartdivorcecouk also if youare listening on apple podcasts
or on spotify and you wouldn'tmind leaving us a lovely
five-star review.
That would be fantastic.
(49:44):
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
(50:05):
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpedyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:55):
Hello and welcome to today'sepisode of the Smart Divorce
Podcast and I'm very happy towelcome back one of our previous
and very popular guests, CaronKipping.
Hi, Caron, thank you forjoining me today.
Caron Kipping (01:08):
Thank
So Caron is a survivor ofdomestic abuse and a master
practitioner -can't read today -master practitioner of divorce
cases, specialising in abusiveand coercive relationships.
She's worked for many yearswithin the charity sector,
overseeing a team of IDVAs -we'll talk more about that
shortly - and managing high riskcases of domestic abuse.
(01:31):
Caron is also the author of thefabulous book which I recommend
all the time, called recognitionto recovery, how to leave your
abusive past behind for good,and is passionate about raising
awareness of coercive control.
So I'm massively lookingforward to this conversation
because I have spoken to Caronmany times and including am
(02:07):
incredibly naive about this area.
But I'm trying to learn muchmore because I work with people
all of the time who are victims,survivors of domestic abuse,
who many, many times are onlyactually coming to the
realization that they've been inan abusive relationship after
they've already left.
But I want to try and speaktoday about some of the support
(02:32):
that's available to women andmen in this situation.
So we're going to talk aboutIDVAs today.
So first of all, obvious,obvious, basic question what is
an IDVA?
So first of all, I would like to say thank you
for choosing this as a topic,because this is actually a
(02:53):
question I get asked a lot.
You know what is an IDVA or anIDVA?
You know, however you want tosay it, um, you know.
Even police officers, socialworkers, housing officers
sometimes say you know.
Even police officers, socialworkers, housing officers
sometimes say you know what's anIDFA.
And I have to roll my eyes andsay, well, you should really
know what an IDVA is.
But anyway, so an IDVA standsfor Independent Domestic
(03:18):
Violence Advocate, so it's aprofessional qualification.
You have to do quite a lot ofwork.
You have to usually be workingwith high risk survivors of
domestic abuse, usually withinthe charitable sector for an
organisation like Women's Aid orRefuge or one of those kind of
(03:40):
charitable specialistorganisations.
When you do the course and thenyou have to do quite a lot of
work and case studies etc, andum, then you get your
certificate, but yourprofessional qualification at
the end and the the role of anIDFA really is to reduce the
(04:02):
risk as quickly as possible forhigh-risk survivors of domestic
abuse, men or women, right,people that are at kind of
imminent risk of danger fromtheir partner or their
ex-partner or a family member.
So it doesn't necessarily haveto be a direct partner, it could
(04:24):
be a parent, it could be asibling, you know.
So it's all those differentdynamics of domestic abuse that
we are trained in, in dealingwith, and so we're really the
specialists in terms of beingable to recognize a serious risk
of harm.
Uh, safety planning as afollow-up to that, I'm really
(04:50):
looking at where that survivoris in terms of their
understanding of domestic abuseand understanding what they want
from the relationship.
You know, are they ready toseparate?
Are they not?
Do they still feel like theylove that person?
You know?
So we do a lot of ummotivational interviewing, so a
(05:11):
lot of um work trying to getthem to a recognize the risk
that they're at, understand thedynamics of their relationship
and come to terms with you knowum the fact that it's not a
healthy relationship,essentially, and to get them to
(05:33):
think about making decisions andprioritizing their needs above
the needs of the abuser.
Okay, um, and also looking atsafeguarding.
So IDVA's traditionally work inpartnership with other
professional agencies so theymight link in with police or
(05:53):
social services or health orhousing.
So it's really looking at thewhole picture.
So you know, if you go to asolicitor, a solicitor will give
you advice based on the legalaspects.
You know what your rights arelegally.
You know what you can do interms of civil law, criminal law
.
But they might not necessarilytake into consideration other
(06:17):
things that are going on in yourlife.
You know you might have areally limited support network.
You might have children thathave got additional needs.
You might not feel like you canmove to the other end of the
country, you know, to go into arefuge and helping that survivor
(06:46):
, weigh up the pros and cons ofthe options and really looking
at empowering them to make theirown choices, to take control
back over their life and to makedecisions that are right for
them.
And, at the same time, an advertis an advocate, so we are able
to speak up for that person ifthey're not able to do so.
So again, traditionally wewould sit in on child protection
(07:09):
meetings, safeguarding meetings.
We might contact the police ontheir behalf to get updates, you
know.
So it's really being that keyperson that can coordinate all
of the agencies that might berelevant for that person and
create this whole support team,if you like, to help reduce the
risk and support that survivoras much as possible.
(07:30):
So a NIDVA can be really usefulin terms of contacting other
professionals that might helpyou, rather than that survivor
having to do all the legwork andmake numerous calls and retell
their story over and over againto each individual person.
And sometimes, when you get anadvocate speaking up on your
(07:52):
behalf, other professionals willlisten right, whereas if it's a
survivor, sometimes it's hardfor them to articulate how they
feel it's.
It's hard for them to speak upand find the confidence to do
that and they, you know,particularly when that
relationship is coercive andthere's not a lot of tangible
evidence, it can quite often bebe lost.
(08:15):
You know, it's just like oneperson's word against the other.
So, in in terms of what an IVVAdoes, it's really looking at
risk first, safety planning thenlooking at what support is
needed for that individual.
What do they want to happen?
You know?
Do they want the relationshipto end?
Do they want to move out?
(08:35):
Do they want the other personto move out?
What kind of support do theyneed?
What support have they alreadygot?
What are struggling with?
What's going well?
So it's it's looking at all ofthat and keeping in regular
contact with that person so thatthey know they've got that
support.
Um, and you know again,traditionally most IDVAs work
(08:59):
within the charitable sector.
Now, this sounds great.
You know in theory that youknow people can access this for
support.
Now, the downside is that it isa bit of a postcode lottery.
It depends on where you live asto what support you can
(09:19):
actually access because they arecharitable organizations.
We've lost a lot of fundingover the years and you know
services change all the time, sothe the types of support that
they can offer does vary fromplace to place and time to time,
so you do have to try and keepon on top of what's available in
(09:42):
your area if you're aprofessional working with
clients like this.
Now, some services will be ableto offer support for high risk
survivors.
Some will be able to offersupport for high risk survivors
and, you know, those at mediumrisk where the risk is not so
evident but they're still havinga lot of challenges.
(10:05):
Some will be able to offersupport groups, which are great,
right, but they might only beable to offer support groups for
specific types of cases.
You know, it depends on howthey're funded and, um, an IDVA
traditionally will work withsomebody quite intensely for
about 12 weeks and you wouldhope that within that 12 weeks
(10:28):
you would be able to reduce therisk down quite significantly
and get them all the help thatthey need.
And then off they go and, youknow, try and manage the rest of
their situation with a bit ofongoing support, maybe from
other organisations, otherprofessionals.
(10:49):
Now I started, I diversifiedfrom being an IDVA working
within the charitable sector tobeing a divorce coach with that
IDVA experience, and the reasonwhy I did that was because there
is a gap.
You know, there is a gap in thesupport that is available for
(11:09):
people.
You know everything isn't doneand dusted within 12 weeks quite
often, you know, you know whatit's like.
No, no.
When you're going throughfinancial proceedings, when
you're going through familycourt, that takes months, you
know, sometimes it can take acouple of years, and so that
(11:30):
person needs that ongoingsupport.
But the charitable sector can'tnecessarily offer that because
they just don't have thecapacity to do that.
So that's where my coachingservices and peer support groups
, you know, came in and, as anIDVA, now the law has changed to
allow IDVAs to be able tosupport survivors within the
(11:55):
family court, to be able to sitin court with them and to be
able to offer that quiet adviceand guidance and make sure that
they feel more supported in thatsituation.
However, again the downside isis IDVAs within the charitable
sector really can't offer thatright now because they just
(12:18):
don't have capacity.
You know they are managing 25cases usually at a time as a
minimum, okay, and they are highrisk cases, the very intense
work.
They don't have capacity to sitfor a whole day in court or
three to five days forfact-finding hearing.
You know they just don't havethat capacity to do that.
(12:39):
So that's where my experiencecan be really useful, because I
can do that for clients, youknow.
Unfortunately, you know, noteverybody's going to be able to
access it because it is a paidfor service.
But I try and keep those costsreasonable to make sure that
people can access that support.
(13:00):
But it is a really it is areally valuable service and I
really wish that more IDFAswould be able to do that.
I think there is going to besome funding coming available to
train up I think, 300 IDFAsacross the country for family
court support, and most of thoseIDFAs will be coming from the
(13:20):
charitable sector, which will begreat because, you know, I just
think it's great that they'veput this in place, but they
haven't really thought through,thought through the
practicalities of how that'sgoing to happen so they
definitely need to invest morefunding into the charitable
sector if that's going to work.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
(13:40):
So that's quite a new thingthat IDVAs are allowed to do
that.
But that's essentially whatIDVAs do, and I've still got
links with Safeguarding and withmy local domestic abuse sector,
so we kind of cross-refer inand out and I can refer into
professional meetings forhigh-risk clients to look at
(14:05):
getting that multi-agencysupport.
Tamsin Caine (14:07):
Yes, absolutely.
So many questions just fromwhat you've just said, so I want
to start with a relativelybasic question how are we
defining risk level?
So what does high risk mean?
Caron Kipping (14:24):
Yes, so you define risk level by what does
what?
What?
What does high risk mean?
Yeah, so you define risk levelby um, there's a?
There's a risk assessment toolthat we use as it was.
It's called the dash riskassessment.
So domestic abuse, stalking andharassment risk assessment.
It's the same tool that mostpolice officers use.
Some forces have changed to adifferent tool, but
(14:47):
traditionally we've all usedthis same tool of reference,
really, and some social workersare trained to use it as well.
Basically, it's a set of 24questions that we ask, and these
questions are based on research.
You know they are predictors ofserious harm.
(15:08):
You know, because perpetratorsof domestic abuse all do very
similar things.
You know they all say and dovery similar things and there
are certain things that theywill do, certain behaviours that
they have that will lead on tomore serious harm.
So they are very clearpredictors.
(15:30):
You know, if you look at womenthat have died through domestic
abuse, there are certain thingsthat happen in the lead up to
that and that are very commonacross all these cases.
So what we're trying to do iswe're trying to predict what
level of harm a person is at.
Okay, so we tick the boxes yesand no, all right, and we also
(15:54):
bring professional judgment intoit.
You, what do we feel?
As if there's a risk factors.
So there might be certainthings that a person experiences
, or you know something in theirbackground that makes us
believe that they are at seriousrisk of harm risk of palm, and
(16:22):
uh, it's.
If you're looking at the numberof tick boxes, somebody that
ticks 14 out of 24 would beconsidered high risk, right?
Anything above 14 and above ishigh risk, right.
Anything kind of between 8 and14 is medium risk, all right,
and then standard risk would bebelow that.
Most people generally fall intothe standard risk category, but
(16:43):
there are certain people thatwill fall into the high risk
category and they are definitelyat risk of significant harm.
So they definitely need moresupport than I could offer as a
coach.
They need safeguarding help,they need help from police help.
They need help from police.
Maybe they need help fromhousing or you know.
Tamsin Caine (17:01):
They need more intense support to make sure
that they're not at risk yeah,okay, wow, um, okay, so we're
you know high risk is prettydamn serious.
Caron Kipping (17:13):
It's about asking those, um key questions to
tease out information from that,because that survivor doesn't
necessarily know what level ofrisk they're at.
They might be scared, buteverybody's perception of being
scared is different, so you haveto drill down a little bit and
ask really key questions.
So, okay, if you're scared,what are you scared of?
(17:35):
Are you worried that they'regoing to harm you?
Have they made any threats toyou before?
Have they got access to weaponsat all?
You know?
Are they financially abusive?
Have they ever threatened totake the children from you or
what you know?
Have they ever threatenedsuicide?
Have they ever threatened tokill you?
So real kind of key questions,yeah.
(17:55):
And then it's not just askingthose key questions, it's
teasing out even moreinformation to get a real sense
of what's happened in the past,you know, and what might come in
the future.
Tamsin Caine (18:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
Does the questionnaire alsolink to legal aid and does it
also link to how the police workwith that, with that person,
how what their involvement is?
Caron Kipping (18:24):
yes, so, um, you can, you wouldn't.
You wouldn't get um a copy ofthe risk assessment as such from
uh, an IDFA that works within acharitable organisation.
It's a confidential document,you know, and it should be right
.
But what that IDVA can do isthey can write a supporting
(18:46):
letter for legal aid purposes tosay this person has come to our
service, we've professionallyrisk assessed them, we believe
that they are a survivor ofdomestic abuse or coercive
control.
We we're happy to support theirlegal aid application right,
that's one of the pieces ofevidence that you can use to
(19:06):
support your legal aidapplication.
I can't do that because I'm anindependent, if I don't work for
an organization and theparameters at the moment are
only for charitableorganisations.
Okay, for police.
Police have specialist domesticabuse officers, so they have
(19:29):
departments that solely dealwith domestic abuse, and for you
to access support andprotection from those police
officers, you do generally haveto come under the high risk
bracket, because there aredifferent things that the police
can do to help you stay safe.
They can offer you alarms, theyhave an app now where you can
(19:52):
directly upload information andevidence to the app, etc.
Directly upload information andevidence to the app, etc.
They will have those speciallytrained officers who have that
extra knowledge and experienceabout domestic abuse to help you
.
If you don't come into thatbracket, then you tend to be
signposted to Victims First orVictim Support or those kind of
(20:14):
organisations who can offer youa little bit of ongoing support,
um and practical help andsignposting
Tamsin Caine (20:25):
wow , there's so much to this, isn't
there?
um, so it sounds to me likecontacting a charitable
organization who has it workingwithin it.
Is that it's pretty importantwhen you feel like you've been
in an abusive relationship.
That's almost the first call.
(20:47):
Is that kind of what yourthought is?
Caron Kipping (20:50):
Yeah, definitely.
I always recommend for peopleto to contact them because it's
free, for a start.
It doesn't cost you a penny.
They are the specialists, youknow they.
They get it.
There's not going to be anyjudgment when you call up or
when you email them and you askfor help.
Right, they're going to do therisk assessment, so they're
(21:12):
going to have that professionalknowledge and understanding
about how to best support youand then they will be able to
offer you whatever appropriatesupport they feel you need.
Ok, so it's about opening upyour support network and getting
as much support as possible.
A lot of people feel like, oh,I shouldn't go to a domestic
(21:34):
abuse organisation because youknow there's other people that
are much more in need than I am.
You know, I hear that a lot andI'm like no, go to them.
That's what they're there for.
They're there to help you.
If they can't help you, theywill tell you All right, but ask
.
There's no harm in asking.
Is there?
(21:54):
Absolutely.
Go to them ask get thatvalidation from them.
You know that everything you'reworried about you're right to
be worried about yeah, get thatsupport, get that emotional
support, get that practical help, if they can offer it to you.
Tamsin Caine (22:14):
Yeah, definitely so would you.
Is it best to start with thedomestic abuse helpline?
Is it best to start withwomen's aid?
If you're female, is it best tostart with your local service?
Like where, where shouldsomebody go first?
Caron Kipping (22:40):
so you can ring the domestic national helpline,
that has the database of all ofthe domestic abuse organizations
, um, those organizations andthe support.
Again, you know they do changefrom time to time.
So you can you know.
If you're not sure where tolook, that's an easy thing to do
is to just google the nationaldomestic violence helpline.
It's open 24 hours a day.
You might have to keep callingto get through because obviously
it's inundated um, but you cando that.
They will essentially signpostyou anyway to your local
(23:03):
domestic abuse organization.
So if you just google lowdomestic abuse support in
whatever town you live in, itwill usually come up with your
local organization.
Might not be called women's aid, it might be called something
else, might be called solace orum, you know other names of
(23:25):
organizations, but it will tellyou who is in your area or it
will give you the link to thelocal council website, which
usually has a domestic abusepage on there.
All right, it tells you who tocontact because for some cities
as well, they they've broken upinto different geographical
areas.
So, say, you live in westSussex compared to east Sussex,
(23:48):
there might be two differentorganizations.
So, yeah, um, just google,really, and and look and and see
what you can find out and thencall them or email them and just
say this is my situation.
You know, I feel I need somesupport.
How can you help?
And they'll take it from there.
Tamsin Caine (24:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
And something that you saidbefore about people feeling that
you said that when somebodycontacts a service they're not
going to get any judgment, thatwhen somebody contacts a service
they're not going to get anyjudgment.
And I just wanted to touch onthis because this is something
that I get all of the time ispeople saying I feel so stupid
(24:26):
that I've let this happen.
And I just wanted to talk onthat for a bit because that
breaks my heart, because abusersare subtle, they're devious,
they're generally coercive, theyknow what they're doing to
manipulate the situation and,you know, nobody who speaks me
(24:51):
about their experience is goingto receive judgment of me
thinking like they should haveknown better and they should
have worked it out earlier,because that you know we're all
human and that these abusers arefollowing a pattern, as you've
said it's it's kind of alwaysdown the same process, isn't it?
(25:12):
sojust wondered if you could talk
on that for a bit, because Ijust think that's very important
,
Caron Kipping (25:17):
sure, before I do , I just want to go back quickly
before I forget, right, becausemen do find it difficult to
reach out for support.
And again, just google domesticabuse support for men in my
area and it will come up lots ofdomestic abuse organizations do
support men now as well aswomen and have very good support
(25:40):
.
So definitely go to them, or youcan look at the mankind uk
website.
They have a helpline too.
They can call them, but yeahthere definitely is support for
men out there.
Now they don't feel like theyhave to struggle on their own.
Tamsin Caine (25:59):
Oh perfect, thank you! I think that's really
important because I think, in away, men find it even more
difficult than women to comeforward and and it almost feels
like they're just like sayingsomething against their gender.
If they come forward, like theyshould be able to cope with it,
this shouldn't be happening tothem and it's you know?
(26:20):
I think probably we don't.
We know even less of the extentof domestic abuse against men
than we do about women, becausethere's there's a fear of coming
forward.
So, yeah, thank you for thatthere is that and a lot.
Caron Kipping (26:33):
I mean, I've definitely seen an increase in
male clients coming forward,which is good, which is good.
It's good that they're comingforward to get that support.
It's sad but it's good.
Yeah, I know it's sad but it'sgood.
And a lot of men will quiteoften prefer to come to somebody
like a coach rather than go toa domestic abuse organisation
(26:55):
that predominantly supportswomen, then go to a domestic
abuse organisation thatpredominantly supports women.
You know, it's just thatfeeling of having that
confidential support, just on aone-to-one basis.
I don't know if men just seemto prefer that sometimes, but
there are great organisationsout there that can support men.
There are, unfortunately, veryfew men-only organisations.
(27:18):
Unfortunately very few men-onlyorganisations, you know, again,
for funding reasons and allthat kind of stuff.
But Mankind UK are a greatorganisation who are doing a lot
of campaign for men.
So, going back to what you weretalking about, with people
feeling like they should havebeen able to spot the sign
(27:41):
sooner, it's very common tocarry that guilt and to feel the
weight of, you know, being theperson to make the decision and
breaking up the family, etc.
But yeah, nobody has a crystalball, right?
Right, you know, you only knowwhat you know.
At the time when you went intothe relationship, you didn't
(28:03):
know it was going to turn outlike this, otherwise you
wouldn't have stayed in it.
Right, you know you would havegot out sooner.
But it feeds in over time andusually by the time you realise
what's happening, you are tiedtogether with that person.
You have a life together, youhave a home, you have shared
friends, you have childrentogether, and then it's very
(28:25):
difficult to leave, um, so yeah,it's not uncommon to think, oh,
I should have left sooner orI'm so stupid.
You know you're not stupid, youknow you, you want to believe
the best in the person, right?
you want, you don't want toaccept that this person is
intentionally hurting you.
(28:46):
You know whether that'semotionally or physically.
You know you want to.
You want to try and do yourbest to fix things to keep your
relationship going to, to makeit happier and better and all
the rest of it.
But of course you're not theproblem, so you know it doesn't
matter what you do it's notgoing to work.
Um, yeah, it's a.
It's a process that you gothrough, you know, to get to
(29:09):
that point where you realizethat this relationship isn't is
not good, and for some peoplethat takes many years, for some
people it takes a few months.
You know everybody'severybody's different.
But you need to let go of thatguilt for not spotting it sooner
, because it's not your fault.
Tamsin Caine (29:31):
Yeah abosolutely.
And and there there are thingsthat have been happening that
that you don't necessarily spot,or you you have been coerced
into believing that these thingsare being done for the, for
your good and the family's good.
So don't worry about the money.
I will look after it.
(29:51):
Don't, don't bother yourselfwith it, you don't need to know
they are expert liars, expertmanipulators.
Caron Kipping (30:00):
Uh, they know exactly what to say and do to
keep you under their control.
Really, you know, because it'sall based on having power and
control over you and they createthis culture of fear and
dependence in your relationship.
So they want you to believethat you know they're right and
(30:21):
you're wrong.
They want you to protectyourself.
They want to destroy yourconfidence and your self-esteem.
You know, and they will dowhatever it takes.
Tamsin Caine (30:31):
Yeah, it's just really saddening and frustrating
that people, people say also,um, so, as if if it's so
responsible for what's happenedto them and they just it's, it's
just, it's such a shame, um,okay, so, um, accessing givers
(30:51):
is only available by a charity.
It sort of feels fromeverything that we've talked
about so far that it would bereally useful if some people in
the wider world could do it fortraining and be available on a
private, like on a, to have thatservice, you know, if they have
(31:13):
the funds available which, aswe talked about, isn't everybody
but to have that available forpeople to go training, to be
able to train and be able to dothat work in the wider world if
there was the availability offunding to pay for it.
Are there any plans for that tohappen?
Caron Kipping (31:31):
Not that I know of.
Unfortunately, the only plansare, like I said, to fund the
IDVAs in the charitable sector,to do that work within the
family court.
But you know that's 300.
And you know how much work thereis and how much need there is
for that kind of support and,yeah, I can offer it in court,
(31:56):
but I'm one person and there'sonly so many court hearings that
I can attend and I, you know,I'm only in the southeast, so,
you know, for people in thenorth there's definitely a need
and, you know, more courthearings are moving away from
virtual to in person now again,which again is going to limit
(32:18):
the the ability for iffas toattend.
So, yeah, it's, it's definitelyan area that needs to be looked
at yeah, and it's, it's.
Tamsin Caine (32:29):
It strikes me that it's not just in court hearings
, but actually having thatperson there to hold your hand.
Caron Kipping (32:36):
Yeah, that longer term support there's definitely
a need for it.
There's definitely a need forlonger term support.
I've had some of my clients forfive years.
You know when clients come tome for coaching there's no
closure day, right.
You don't do six sessions andthen go away and carry on with
your life, becausepost-separation abuse goes on
(32:58):
for years.
And you know I work with peoplewhen the court system is
finished, when the divorce isover.
You know, when they've movedhouse and they've moved on.
I still work with them becausethere are still issues that crop
up from time to time and myclients still have wobbly
moments and they still feelexhausted with the constant
(33:20):
barrage of abuse that comestheir way.
You know we're just coming tothe end of summer holidays
that's been a nightmare for someof my clients and they've got
court orders and childarrangement orders and what have
you.
But again these mastermanipulators.
You know their behavior doesn'tchange.
It doesn't change just becausethey're out of court.
(33:41):
It doesn't change just becausethe risk is reduced it.
You know they are who they areand all the time, while you've
got children with that person oryou've got some connection and
some link, they still want tohave that control over you.
Tamsin Caine (33:56):
Yeah, absolutely, Post-separation abuse is just,
it's unfathomably terrifying.
But, how you know, you kind ofassume oh well, the divorce is
done, the court order is made.
But these are people who don'tcare about court orders.
They're not interested in whata court order tells them they
(34:17):
can or can't, or have to orhaven't to do.
It's not relevant.
They're not going to abide by apiece of paper from a court.
Caron Kipping (34:25):
Unfortunately, and, to be honest, the IDVAs
that work in the charitablesector are not always the
experts in family court stuff,because that stuff happens after
their cases have closed,whereas you know, with family
court stuff you really have gotto have that knowledge about
what to put into your childarrangement order, what you
(34:48):
should be asking for in terms ofyour finances and that.
And that's where they needpeople like you and myself and
you know people that work withinthat that kind of
post-separation arena to givethem that specialist advice,
because if you don't know whatyou should be putting in your
child arrangement order, if youdon't know what you should be
(35:10):
challenging in terms of finances, you can really come unstuck
later on and it can make yourlife a lot harder.
Tamsin Caine (35:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, it feels like there's a,there's a massive gap, that that
new well, I mean not that Ididn't think that before I
started talking to you today butit feels like there's an even
bigger gap where something couldbe done if only the training
were available, kind of on awider scale, because I know
there are many of usprofessionals and we're going to
(35:43):
speak to quite a lot of themover the course of this series
who passionately want to seechanges made and want to support
survivors, passionately want tosee changes made and want to
support survivors, but in someways are hands tied just from a
lack of training and the lack ofability to support these
(36:05):
survivors in the way that theypotentially could.
So, yeah, another one to add tothe list of changes we'd like
to see.
Yeah, yeah, the long list.
Oh, it's a very long list.
Tell me a bit about um, about ifand obviously no names and so
on, but a bit about how youmight um support somebody who
(36:29):
was, who was, in court as anipper, because I can only
imagine that courts are a prettyterrifying place to be.
In the first place, presumablythey are facing the perpetrator
and being in the same room asthem, potentially for the first
time for a long time.
How do you support them, andare they generally also
(36:53):
supported by solicitors andbarristers, or are they
generally litigants in person?
Caron Kipping (36:58):
so it could be either.
So I support clients who have alegal team, uh, and clients
that are representing themselvesa lot of clients representing
themselves now because of thefinancial abuse and the fact
that they struggle to accesslegal aid and they struggle to
afford legal help.
So quite often they do end uphaving to represent themselves
(37:21):
in hearings and that can be yeah, might mightily scary when
you're going to try and stand upfor yourself and find your
voice against the person that'sabused, you and also within a
system that you don't reallyunderstand.
You know you've never probablybeen to court in your life
before and all of a suddenyou're trying to fight for your
(37:42):
children and fight, you know,for finances, to to put a roof
over your head and and survive,right.
So these are important, bigthings that you're fighting for.
So, um, if I've got a clientwho's got a legal team, it can
work really well because thelegal team can focus on their
(38:04):
job and doing what they need todo in terms of standing up and
advocating for their client, andI can support the client with
their emotions and help keepthem grounded and calm and do
all the explaining about what'shappening.
So that can work really well,and also in the past I've
(38:24):
managed to support clients with.
You know, when they've had tomake big decisions on the day
you know they've had to thinkabout on the day you know
they've had to think about.
Okay, right, let's draft thischild arrangement order now.
You know what do we need, whatdo we want to put in it.
I can then help the barristerwrite it by saying, well, these
are the common, you know umpoints of conflict that my
(38:48):
clients typically have.
You know the typical types ofpost-separation abuse.
So maybe word it like this orput this bit of detail in it and
that will ensure that, you know, hopefully that limits those
points of conflict.
And you know, and the childarrangement actually works
better for that, for that client, so we can work as a real team
(39:10):
with that client.
And if clients are representingthemselves, then, yeah, it's
nice to be able to have somebodysit beside you in court, you
know, so I can contact the courtbeforehand and make sure
they've got their specialmeasures.
So make sure they maybe havegot a separate entrance to the
court from the abuser.
(39:31):
Make sure they've got aseparate waiting room.
Make sure they've got aseparate entrance to the court
from the abuser, make surethey've got a separate waiting
room, make sure they've got ascreening court, and sit right
beside the survivor Explaineverything that's happening.
If they don't understandsomething, if they're not sure
about any of the jargon thatgets used in court jargon that
(39:56):
gets used in court um, I cangive them quiet bits of advice
in court and encourage them.
You know, uh, we use lots oflavender spray and things like
that to just kind of calm thenervous system a little bit,
make sure that they're never ontheir own at any point.
You know we go to the toilettogether, we go to lunch
together.
I literally stick to them likeglue and then we can have a
(40:17):
debrief afterwards.
You know how's it gone, whatwent well, what didn't go so
well, you know what are the nextsteps.
So they're really clear onwhat's happening and I write
comprehensive notes as we gothrough the hearing and then
type them up afterwards so thenthey can go away and digest it
right.
Yeah, because it's really hardto pick up on everything that's
(40:41):
happening in court when you'retrying to speak up for yourself.
You're trying to listen to theother side, you're nervous
anyway.
Tamsin Caine (40:48):
Um, so to have somebody that's there listening,
picking up on things, doing abit of that work for you,
writing it down, so you don'tforget, you know you've got
really clear, comprehensivenotes, it can really help yeah,
absolutely, and I think one ofthe things that the clients in
(41:09):
this position have said to me isthat their fear is around not
being believed because they incourt, because they have been a
victim of abuse, come acrossperhaps more timid, more meek,
less confident of what they'resaying, and the perpetrator is
(41:34):
going to come across as veryconfident, very likable, um,
very aware of what they'resaying.
Uh, they probably have a moreexpensive legal team in many,
many cases that they they'rekind of presenting their case as
the truth, be all and end all,and because of their nature and
(41:58):
their lies and the way that theycoerce the victim, survivor
often feels that they're notgoing to be believed by the
judge, by whoever else is in theroom, and that they're going to
lose out because of that.
Is there anything that you canrecommend to help that person
(42:20):
who's going into the court,who's the victim's survivor can
do to reassure them, to put themin a better position, other
than having you by their side,which you know, if we could
multiply you several hundredtimes, we would do?
Caron Kipping (42:37):
It is a very difficult situation and
sometimes you know the abuserscan come across as very charming
you know, sometimes they canlose their rag in court, you
know, and when they're backedinto a corner or they're
challenged, their true coloursreally can come out.
So sometimes they can tripthemselves up, you know, and
when they're backed into acorner or they're challenged,
(42:58):
their true colors really cancome out.
So sometimes they can tripthemselves up.
You know, and I think forsurvivors, it is just really
about being brave and realizingthis is your best shot to get
what you need for the nextcouple of years or whatever, you
know, however long you'reyou're you're looking at here in
(43:18):
terms of your children, interms of your finances.
You've got to dig deep, you'vegot to be brave and you've got
to find that inner strength fromsomewhere to to stand up for
what is right, to stand up forwhat you believe in, to find
your voice to challenge and saydo you know what?
I'm not scared of you anymore.
(43:39):
Right, I am going to stand up.
I am going to tell the world,you know what you've done.
I am going to, you know, fightfor my children.
I am going to fight for myselfnow, right, right, because if
you don't, you know, the chancesare they might just believe the
other side.
You know, quite often it is oneperson's word against the other
.
(43:59):
Facts are absolutely key.
So the more evidence you have,the more facts you have, the
better.
It is absolutely about tryingto stay calm and focused, right,
trying not to let the emotionsoverwhelm you, because it's
natural to be emotional, it'snatural to feel scared and
(44:21):
worried and panicked and all ofthose things.
But if you let those emotionsoverwhelm you, it's not going to
help you.
All right, and this is your onechance to to do your best.
Okay, and you have to go inthere thinking positive.
Even if the last court hearingdidn't go so well, you've got to
go back into the next courthearing thinking this is a fresh
(44:41):
start.
Might even be the same judge,right, but you've got to go in
there with a positive mindsetfrom the beginning.
And if things don't go so wellfor you, you've got to think
right, okay, they've not gone sowell, but what can I do now?
How do I deal with it?
How do I work around it?
How do I make it better?
Tamsin Caine (45:01):
yeah, absolutely lavender spray.
Lavender sprays are good
Caron Kipping (45:11):
Oh, I go through loads of lavender.
Lavender, and another top tipis get a stress ball as well,
you know or a makeup sponge orsomething that you can squeeze
or fidget with Put it in yourpocket.
Nobody knows it's there.
Right, If you start to feel abit stressed, a bit emotional,
just keep opening and closingyour hand like that in your
pocket, right?
Nobody knows what's happeningand the reason why you open and
(45:32):
close your hand all the time isit distracts you all right from
what's going on all right.
It grounds your emotions alittle bit because you're
focusing on that.
Open, close, open, close, open,close right, and it just takes
the edge off okay, it's just areally simple thing that can
just help that stop thatoverwhelm right yeah, but if you
(45:53):
do get overwhelmed.
You know you're a human being,you're not a robot.
All right, just try to take afew deep breaths, right?
Or have a glass of water.
Just take a pause, take aminute and then get back on it
yeah, absolutely a bit.
Tamsin Caine (46:08):
Meditation, potentially practice breathing,
all those sorts of relaxationtechniques are going to help put
you in the right place because,as you say, frightening as it
is, you do have one chance, andthis is about trying to get this
right for the rest of your life.
If you're talking aboutfinances, it's getting the right
(46:30):
outcome for you and you want tofight calmly?
Yeah, for all this?
I think yeah, and we're comingto the end of our time together,
sadly.
It's been fabulous talking toyou.
Have you got anything you wantto add before, before we go?
Um?
Caron Kipping (46:49):
I suppose just to give people hope.
All right.
You know we talk about a lot ofchallenges and a lot of
negatives.
You know that come with leavingthese relationships.
They are not easy to leave.
You know, people that arecontrolling do not give up that
control easily.
Of course they're not going tomake it easy for you, right, but
(47:10):
it is possible, okay.
And if you're going throughcourt, you know whatever happens
you can deal with it Right.
There is life afterwards.
You can absolutely make abetter life.
You know you don't have to putup with this kind of behavior
(47:32):
and there's no point thinking,oh, should I have stayed because
it would have been better?
No, it wouldn't.
It would have just got worseover time.
So you know, cut your losses,deal with it.
You know it's a bit likeripping off a plaster.
You just have to do it and bedone with it and get yourself
out the other side and then youcan start healing, you can start
rebuilding whatever that lookslike absolutely and we are.
Tamsin Caine (47:54):
You know we've talked about post-separation
abuse, but it is still betterbeing away than than being in
that relationship and that,absolutely, it is important.
Caron Kipping (48:05):
I've got lots of clients who you know still
really struggle.
But if you ask them you knowwhat is would you prefer life
now compared to what it was likebefore?
100 they would still have itnow right rather than than how
it was before, because eventhough there are difficult
moments, they're just momentsright, it's not constant, it's
(48:27):
not all the time, and they usesome strategies and they have
some boundaries and things totry and make sure that that
post-separation abuse stillallows them to to get on with
their life yeah, absolutely,karen.
Tamsin Caine (48:41):
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Um, if you're struggling withanything that we've talked about
today, there will be links andget hold of karen and we'll put
the domestic abuse helpline linkthere.
Just, please do reach out tosomebody, because we know that
there is.
There is help out there.
Um, but thank you for listening.
(49:01):
Caron, thank you for joining me, and if you have found today's
episode useful, please do giveit a five star review, because
it means that we can help morepeople and get these episodes
out to more people who need them.
So thank you very much, hi, andI hope you enjoyed that episode
(49:23):
of the smart divorce podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website, www.
smartdivorce.
co.
wwwsmartdivorcecouk also if youare listening on apple podcasts
or on spotify and you wouldn'tmind leaving us a lovely
five-star review.
That would be fantastic.
(49:44):
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
(50:05):
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
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