January 10, 2025 • 44 mins
Our guest is Lucy Wade, the force behind "You Don't Own Me" and host of "Dip In and Out with Lucy." We uncover the often hidden struggle of post-separation abuse. Lucy's insights equip listeners with strategies to confront the ongoing control and manipulation many face during the divorce process, unveiling the harsh reality of financial and legal tactics used by abusers to maintain their grip.
Lucy Wade
Lucy is the creator of ydom.co.uk and host of the Podcast, DIP in and out with Lucy CIC . She is a Domestic Abuse Consultant, specialising in Post-Separation Abuse. She proudly sits on the Board of Trustees of Trafford Domestic Abuse Services
Lucy has developed the Let’s Talk Series, which helps organisations, including John Lewis Partnership Working Parents Network and Gender Equality Network (GEN) to begin to understand the issues and challenges faced by those experiencing domestic abuse and post-separation abuse. And what organisations can do to support those around them.
She works with various organisations, including The National Trading Standards (NTS) Scams Team as part of their task force to develop their knowledge and understanding of domestic abuse, the language and approach we should all be taking when talking about abuse, and how it impacts all of us directly or indirectly.
She is a guest speaker joining among others, Alzheimer’s Society’s Spotlight Session to open the door to conversations around abuse and helps those who may be searching for answers but don’t know where to start.
Website: https://ydom.co.uk/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lucywade38
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3TggcSQj1vaBPzRWzCXXni
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpedyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:53):
Hello and welcome to the SmartDivorce Podcast.
I'm very happy to be joinedtoday by lovely Lucy Wade.
She is giving me paybackpodcast because I was very
privileged to be a guest on herpodcast, so Lucy is the creator
(01:13):
and owner of the website YouDon't Own Me and the host of the
podcast "Dip In and Out withLucy, which, if you're watching
on YouTube, you'll be able tosee the lovely picture behind
her with her podcast name.
She also delivers the Let'sTalk series online sessions
around domestic abuse andpost-separation to help
organisations to understand thecomplexities of abuse and what
(01:35):
they can do to support thosearound them.
She's a consultant and a guestspeaker, working with various
organisations to develop theirknowledge and understanding of
domestic abuse, the language andapproach we should all be
taking when talking about abuseand how it impacts us all
directly and indirectly, right?
The next bit I'm going to askher to explain because I've not
(01:58):
got a clue.
So it says "dip in and out withLucy CIC, and then there's
another bit is a one-stop shop,helping people find useful
resources, support services andaccess to knowledge shared by
professionals.
" Did I get most of that right,lucy?
Lucy Wade (02:14):
You did.
I'm very impressed because it'sa bit of a mouthful.
I don't think that would be avery good tagline ever for me,
but it's basically what it says.
Tamsin Caine (02:27):
Excellent one-stop shop, yeah, so.
So before we get, we get stuckinto the meat of the
conversation.
We're going to talk aboutpost-separation abuse, um, so
how did you start to?
Um understand about abuse, towant to get involved in this
area of work, because it's notthe most glamorous and cheerful
(02:51):
topic to spend your life talkingabout that well, 100%.
You've said what most peoplethink when I open my mouth and
say this is what I do for aliving?
Lucy Wade (03:00):
um, you're 100% right .
Yes, it is, and I think that'sprobably the reason I wanted to
do it.
More than anything is becauseit's such a a taboo subject, in
a way, and and we talk aboutdomestic abuse and we're
currently in, you know, domesticviolence awareness month, um
but actually post-separationabuse is something that just is
either overlooked, isn'tunderstood, and it was just an
(03:23):
area for me that I felt reallyneeded to be highlighted, and I
myself was a service user of mylocal charity, and then I was a
volunteer because I wanted togive back, and then I went one
step further and started workingfor them.
And when I was working for thecharity, I was out in the
community talking a lot toservice users, and what I
(03:44):
started to notice was, you know,obviously charities have
funding and then funding comesto an end.
So if you're having support,that support isn't going to go
on forever.
That support will last maybethe length of your group
facilitation or your one to onesessions.
And you know, if you have IDVAsupport, it will eventually come
to an end.
And it's what do you do then?
(04:11):
And that, for me, was where Ifelt you don't owe me, as my
website could step in.
And then, obviously, thepodcast, and it was all one big
kind of idea in my head and Ijust needed to kind of get it
down and think how am I actuallygoing to achieve?
this and how is this going towork?
And it's been.
I think it was April 2023.
I kind of put the podcast outthere and started the website
and since then, thankfully,things seem to be going from
strength to strength.
Tamsin Caine (04:31):
Long, long, long long.
May that continue, because itis an indispensable service that
you provide and one that'svitally important.
And had a similar conversationwith Karen Kipping, who came on
to talk about being an IDFA andkind of supporting people in
court, and we talked about thepossibility of private IVA type
(04:54):
of scenario, which I think isthe way she sort of describes
herself.
But what you were saying aboutpost-separation abuse and it not
being understood, there'sdefinitely a thought out there
that once you've left,everything will be all right and
all the nastiness comes to anend and it's all flowers and
(05:20):
roses and you can get on withyour life and it's all beautiful
again.
Um, and that's not entirely thesituation, is it?
Lucy Wade (05:29):
no, absolutely not.
And I only had thisconversation with somebody the
other day saying you know, youwatch those films, um, where it
talks about domestic abuse, andthen by the end of it it's all
sorted.
So in the space of a couple ofhours it's all been dealt with
and there you go and they, youknow, ride off into the sunset.
Like you're saying, it's allflat and great, life's great.
And post-separation abuse anddomestic abuse itself isn't like
that.
(05:49):
It is that continuation.
And one of the biggest things Italk about in my series, in the
sessions I do, is about mythbusting and misconceptions and
around that idea that whenpeople say, well, why didn't
they just leave, you know, well,they've left, now everything
should be okay.
But that actually very often Iwould say 99.9% of the time, if
(06:11):
not 100% of the time it is goingto ramp up, because the whole
point of an abuser, of aperpetrator, is they want to
keep control and retain thatpower and control over you.
So once you try to leave thesituation or and I'm not, and I
always say it's not everybodycan leave, it's never an
assumption that everybody canleave but if you do leave the
situation, then very often itwill get worse before it can
(06:35):
possibly get better.
And that's where I think thesupport is needed, because that
and if children are involved,you know, and you're in for a
very long process of familycourt become involved and you
basically are tied to thatperpetrator.
And it's finding ways ofsupporting yourself, supporting
your mental health, because Icall it a marathon, not a sprint
.
Tamsin Caine (06:55):
Absolutely, absolutely.
On the podcast about leavingand about how many times it
tends to take victim survivorsof domestic abuse to leave the
situation.
But today we want to focus onwhat happens afterwards, what
(07:17):
sort of things people might needto prepare themselves for.
I guess if you're going toleave, if you're preparing to
leave, that's hard enough, butyou do need to prepare for
what's going to happen next.
So can you give us someexamples of some of the things
that you might be up against,even if you do manage to leave?
Lucy Wade (07:39):
Absolutely so.
In particular, I would say,obviously in terms of where
you're going to live, because ifthe perpetrator is in control
of the finances, are youprepared for the fact that you
may have to go intoaccommodation?
Are you prepared for the factthat you may have to live with
family or friends for a periodof time while you start to
rebuild your life?
You know there's a lot ofthings around.
(08:00):
Even just where you're going tolive is a really difficult
conversation.
Even just where you're going tolive is a really difficult
conversation.
If then it does get to the point, as I was saying, around either
family courts, you know.
If the police are involved, ifsocial services are involved you
may be seeing your GP you mightbe concerned that you know
there are things going on foryou mentally, because very often
a perpetrator will convince avictim or survivor that they're
(08:22):
mentally unwell.
So there's so manyorganizations and agencies that
you could be involved in andwith, and I think it is that
getting that help and gettingthat support, because if all
those agencies are involved,what you have to prepare
yourself for is you arerepeating yourself over and over
and over again.
So I've supported people whowill say well, I spoke to this
(08:42):
social worker today, but they'venow moved teams, so now I've
supported people who will say,well, I spoke to this social
worker today, but they've nowmoved teams, so now I've had to
repeat everything and go over itall again.
Or, if it comes to the police,this person has now moved on to
another role, so I've had torepeat it all again.
And this is why I think there'sa massive, massive issue with
underreporting because, I thinkmost people get to a point where
they are so exhausted they'rejust trying to put one foot in
(09:02):
front of the other.
They're trying to, if they havechildren, support their
children.
If they have a job, they'retrying to hold down a job and
doing all of this.
I call it spinning 50,000 platesdoing all this while trying to
live a life and by trying toalso keep the perpetrator at a
reasonable distance, and none ofit's easy.
So I would definitely saythat's where support is so
(09:24):
important, and what many peoplewill say is well, my partner
never hit me, therefore it isn'tabuse, and this is why, when we
call it domestic violenceawareness month.
I think it can be so misleadingbecause if we incorporate abuse
as well, well, that includes thefinancial, the psychological,
the emotional, the physical.
You know there is so many thesexual, there's so many other
(09:45):
areas to include, and I thinkthat's why a lot of people won't
seek support, because theythink it doesn't impact them.
But what I would always say isthere is no support service out
there that is going to turn youaway.
If you phone up and say I thinkI'm experiencing this, but I'm
not sure, then they will gothrough that process with you
(10:05):
and there's nothing to fear andthere's nothing to be ashamed of
because they're trained to helpyou?
Tamsin Caine (10:08):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's a really
important point to make thatit's not your fault.
You've not asked for this.
This is something that somebodyelse is doing to you, and I
know that we feel that there'smassive underreporting across
the board.
(10:29):
But it certainly feels likeit's possible that the
underreporting is even moreextreme with men than with women
, because I think men are evenmore unwilling to open up about
it because it feels likesomething that shouldn't be
happening I mean, it shouldn'tbe happening to anybody but that
(10:50):
they feel like they can't openup about it and go and seek help
from these services.
So I think it's massivelyimportant what you've said about
people need to seek help.
Just want to come back tosomething that you said about
housing, just because you arebeautifully careful about the
(11:11):
words that you choose, but justwant to clarify something for
the listeners who are not aufait and used to the language
around housing.
So when you talk aboutaccommodation, could you just
explain what you mean by that interms that perhaps listeners
who aren't aware of what thatmeans could understand
(11:33):
Absolutely.
So, as I said, before.
Lucy Wade (11:35):
You may not be in a position where you can afford to
go and rent somewhere yourself.
You may not be in a position tostay with family or friends.
It may be that you've been soisolated that you have no
support network in terms offamily and friends and it's
going to take time, maybe if youwanted to rebuild those
relationships.
So this is where, if you dospeak to your local support
(11:56):
services, that's where they canlook at what's called
accommodation.
So that would be refuge.
It's always scary when peopleuse the word refuge because it
just makes it sound so dark andscary.
And actually I've been inrefuge uh, in Trafford myself
and they're not at all.
They're incredibly amazingplaces that make people feel so
safe.
Um, they're there.
(12:17):
You know.
You're probably safer there thananywhere else you know, and
that's where you're made to feellike it's your home.
It's, you know, and you canhave your own room.
And if you have children, youknow, and that's where you're
made to feel like it's your home.
It's, you know, and you canhave your own room.
And if you have children, youknow it can accommodate children
.
There are male refuges as well,especially again in trafford.
At the moment we've you know,that's recently opened I think
last year, um and it's it'sstarting to become more
(12:39):
understood that it isn't a scaryplace, accommodation or refuge.
It's where you're going to getthe support that you need and
also the time, because at thatpoint you're in crisis, you know
your whole life has unraveledand you know you're blaming
yourself, you're panicking andworrying about everything.
So if you're in accommodation,you have that support there for
you.
So, and then over time, it canbe that it ends up in tier
(13:03):
housing.
Then over time, it can be thatit ends up in tier housing.
So that means that eventuallyyou may end up in in housing, as
in a house, rather than itbeing a room within
accommodation.
So it just takes time, but itgives people that time to gather
their thoughts and and actuallytake a breath for a minute .
Tamsin Caine (13:20):
That that makes it .
That makes a lot of sense.
And we talk about all of thethings that you've got going on
post separation.
You know you've left the familyhome.
You've probably taken thechildren with you, if if there
are children not necessarily,but you probably have and
certainly for clients I workwith the ones that are not
(13:44):
experiencing domestic abuse.
It's still a full-time jobgetting divorced, but getting
divorced with domestic abuse inthe background it's not really
even in the background, as it'sin the foreground and every
ground there is.
But even with that going, withthat going on on top, that whole
(14:07):
process of getting divorced isis kind of even bigger, isn't it
?
Can you give us some examplesof of some ways in which the
abuse continues through andalmost because of the divorce
process?
Lucy Wade (14:24):
Yeah, absolutely, and again, this is kind of like the
meatiest bit for me now,getting into the impact that it
has.
Post-separation abuse andpeople like you just said about
divorce in itself is very rarelystraightforward, but add
domestic abuse into that mix andit complicates things a lot.
It could be, for example,things like you may have an
(14:47):
arrangement in terms of childmaintenance.
So if you do have children ormaybe something there, what the
perpetrator will do will usethat as a weapon either not pay
the amount of money that they'vebeen told by CMS to pay they
won't pay it in on time They'llpay a different amount.
It's all little things thatcoercive control to keep you on
edge, and for a lot of people,that's what they're relying on
(15:08):
to maybe pay a bill or to buyfood, and it's the way of if
they've been controlled in therelationship, either what they
wear, what they eat.
This is a continuation of that.
So, wear what they eat.
This is a continuation of that.
So, and even speaking to CMS,they give um, the paying parent
five days, so what you'll findis they may leave it till the
very last day before they can bereported, and so it's just to
add that anxiety, that stressconstantly and they may.
(15:31):
They may scare the victim orsurvivor into saying don't go to
children.
You know child maintenanceservices, I can't afford that
guilt them into not going sothat then they have a private
arrangement.
But that means that the victimsurvivor may be losing out on
vital funds that they need, thatthey're entitled to and things
like the family court.
I mean, I think we could do anentire episode or two or three
(15:54):
on that, but in terms of tyingthings, up there into mediation
forcing mediation to the pointwhere the victim or survivor is
so intimidated by that person.
They don't want to be in thesame room with them, but they're
being forced into that, andthat, for a perpetrator, is
their idea of heaven.
They can turn on the charm.
They know how to behave infront of people and they also
(16:15):
know how they're going to behavebehind closed doors.
They also know how they'regoing to behave behind closed
doors.
So it's that giving themconstantly, that platform, that
theatre that they love to looklike they're the victim.
They're the one that's, you know, hard done to.
There's so many ways.
(16:35):
You know, I've had cases wherepeople have been trying to go to
say the GP for support andthings, and one person in
particular was talking about thefact that they had disabilities
but their partner was theircarer.
So they can be involved becausethey've given them permission to
speak to their GP for them.
There's so many ways that theycan keep that.
That wheedling into your lifeand removing them is not
straightforward and I thinksometimes that's why I try and
(16:55):
be honest.
I never want to scare anyoneand I think it's the best thing
to do.
It's like anything, isn't itForewarned is forearmed and
prepared, and preparing yourselffor what's to come.
Tamsin Caine (17:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've heard a fair bit recentlyabout something that I've legal
abuse, where essentially theperpetrator is using the divorce
to rack up enormous legal billsin their name to reduce the
(17:30):
value of the marital pot andalso to force the victim
survivor tip to almost have tokeep up or or not doing things
and not, um, not responding tothings, so that you have to send
more letters, you have to domore work to get to the
(17:51):
information, which again rampsup the costs.
Have you got any examples ofanything like that happening?
Lucy Wade (17:59):
I think off the top of my head there have been cases
where that is 100% true,because what perpetrators will
do, they will know that.
Say, for example, they have abarrister over solicitor, a
barrister is going to cost morethan a solicitor is going to
cost.
So it can be that intimidationthen for the victim survivor who
may have nothing, to then say,well, how am I going to afford
this?
If they can use a McKenziefriend, great.
(18:24):
But at the same time, does aMcKenzie friend have the
experience, the knowledge, thatthey're going to need to battle
it out with a barrister or asolicitor, you know, sending
letters, like you say, over veryminuscule things just to keep
that going.
So it costs.
So then they have to respond tothem there If they do have
legal representation and they'rehaving to respond.
And something that came inrecently that I noticed in a few
(18:45):
different cases were aroundactually still living in the
family home.
You know that doesn't getdiscussed enough.
So whilst the divorce is inprocess, the two people because
neither can leave necessarily,or perpetrator just doesn't want
to leave, and they're thenhaving to live under the same
roof whilst the whole process isgoing on, which is continuing
(19:06):
the abuse.
Tamsin Caine (19:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's really terrifying, isn'tit the way that these sorts of
things continue.
What is the impact on victimsand survivors of separation
abuse?
What impact can it have?
I guess firstly during thedivorce process, because that's
(19:31):
where we're kind of talkingabout at the minute.
Lucy Wade (19:35):
I think you know, if say, for example, as I mentioned
before, if the victim orsurvivor had been seeking
support through the GP, veryoften a GP might offer
antidepressants, something likethat.
This is something then thatperpetrators will use as part of
the divorce against you know,in terms of character
assassination.
Almost Well, they takeantidepressants.
There must be something wrongwith them.
(19:55):
Actually, that person is tryingto manage their mental health
and should be applauded fortrying to do something about it,
and I think that's the impactof it, and not just on the
individual themselves, but ifchildren are involved very often
and again I sometimes get funnylooks for saying this, but
unfortunately.
it's true, children will loveboth parents, regardless of
whether one is the perpetratorand one is the victim, and and
(20:16):
very often the child will blamethemselves you know, I've again
I've been lucky to work withchildren and young people as
well and of whether one is theperpetrator and one is the
victim, and very often the childwill blame themselves.
You know, I've been lucky towork with children and young
people as well.
And they will say you know,it's my fault.
It's my fault, I didn't behave.
I wasn't good enough.
That's why this has allhappened.
And the sad thing for them isit's normal to them, that's
normal life.
So you're trying to have tounpick that and say actually
(20:39):
that behavior wasn't acceptable.
You know, and do it in a verygentle way that they understand
that it isn't their fault.
And one thing I often use withthe work I do now is something
called the circle of control,and it works as well for adults
as it does for children andbecause of the impact it has,
because it can be things likeeven just something as simple as
saying we'll have a neutralpoint where we arrange to hand
(21:00):
over the children, for example,and then the perpetrator at the
last minute will change thelocation, change the time.
It's all these little thingsjust to cause more anxiety, more
stress.
It's when you have this circleof control in front of you, the
outer part of the circle issaying you know, what can't you
control?
You can't control how theybehave, you can't control the
fact they're going to send amessage saying you know, what
can't you control?
(21:20):
You can't control how theybehave, you can't control the
fact they're going to send amessage saying you know, I'm
going to change it to 2.30, fromtwo o'clock or whatever it is,
even if you're on route,whatever it may be, you can't
control that.
What you can control in theinner circle is how you respond
to it.
So, as much as you're angry, asmuch as it's not fair taking
that to one side and saying, ok,fine, I'm not going to respond,
because the more you give theperpetrator the oxygen and that
(21:41):
fuel, the more they that's,that's what they feed off.
So it's actually learning tostand back and say because,
unfortunately, that impact willkeep going on, because they know
they're getting to you.
Tamsin Caine (21:51):
Yeah, it is like dealing with children, isn't it?
Isn't it?
You know?
That's exactly what we'retaught to as parents, or told as
parents.
You know don't kind of respond,because if you respond, that's
exactly what the child's lookingfor a response for attention,
for whatever from you.
And it's exactly the same withperpetrators, isn't it?
Lucy Wade (22:13):
Yeah, stamping their feet when they don't get their
own way?
Yeah, yeah.
Tamsin Caine (22:17):
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's terrifying.
Um, so we've talked about kindof during the divorce process,
but unfortunately, even afteryou've got through the divorce
process and you've got yourfinancial settlement sorted and
housing, hopefully, is sorted bythis point and life feels like
(22:40):
it can start to move on, thereare still many instances where
the abuse still continues.
It might have lessened a littlebit because you're not in the
house with them all the time,you're not having to deal with
them every second of the day,but there are still and not all
the time, but there are stillperpetrators who will continue
the abuse even after after thedivorce concludes as well.
(23:03):
What can you give us someexamples and some some things
that that might be going on atthat point?
Lucy Wade (23:09):
yeah absolutely so obviously, stalking and
harassment is something we'veheard about for a very long time
.
Obviously, in terms of abuse,now it is.
It is an offense, but it isn'tjust an in-person thing anymore.
It is something that they canuse social media.
The perpetrator can usetrackers on cars.
They can, if children areinvolved, contact the children
through online gaming, even ifthere's a restraining order or
(23:29):
non-molestation order in place.
So there's lots and lots ofways a perpetrator can still
infiltrate their lives and theyfeel, like you know, for the
victim survivor.
It feels for them like there'sno escape.
And one thing I talk about againin the sessions I do is around
terminology, so we hear allthese words like love bombing,
trauma, bonding and whatperpetrators will do in terms of
(23:50):
thing is they know or theythink they know you and they
think they know how to get toyou.
So it could be emails ormessages saying and you know I
miss you and it was all a bigmistake and I'm sorry.
And because that person hasbecome trauma bonded with the
perpetrator, they may feel sorryfor them and they they may
contact them especially if theperpetrator, which again happens
(24:12):
very frequently is I'm going tokill myself or I'm going to
kill the children or harm afamily pet.
These are all classic signs ofwhat a perpetrator is willing to
say and do to get thatattention.
There's also something elsethat I talk about, called
triangulation, again in terms ofterminology.
So when a perpetrator, if youpicture, a triangle if a
(24:33):
perpetrator is, say, at thispart of the triangle, and then
you've got the victim, what theywill do is they will introduce
either a family, friend or workcolleague into the mix.
So if they felt like they'velost control, they will then try
and use those people, um as asalmost like bargaining chips as
a part of a chess game.
So they will say, well, I doreally miss them, I do really
(24:53):
care.
Or the opposite side is,they're insane, they're bonkers
and try and come out with allsorts of stories that then the
family panic and think, well,maybe actually he's right, she's
wrong.
She's right, he's wrong.
It can get very confusing andthen family can be drawn in, to
which you know.
Very often for victims andsurvivors, they don't even know
how to talk to their family andfriends about it.
(25:13):
So they're very, very cleverperpetrators and very cunning.
They know what they're doing soanybody you know I was asked
once about is saying drugs andalcohol.
The reason someone's abusiveand my answer is always the same
it will exacerbate thesituation, but an abuser chooses
to abuse.
It's as simple as that.
Tamsin Caine (25:31):
Yeah, absolutely Interesting what you say about
family being drawn in, becausethe children can often be the
family that's drawn in, can'tthey?
Lucy Wade (25:40):
oh yeah, yeah definitely, and that's again you
know.
If, for example, you havesomebody who's in accommodation
with very little finance, um,and trying to rebuild the life,
you've got a perpetrator who isin a position where they have
lots of money and can do whatthey want.
They will use gifts and youknow they.
They're sort of well, I cantake you on these amazing
holidays, I can do what theywant.
They will use gifts and youknow the sort of well, I can
take you on these amazingholidays and I can do all this,
(26:03):
which again makes the victimsurvivor parent feel worthless,
that they can't provide allthose things for the child.
And again, when I have workedwith people, what I will always
come down to say is a childwants to be loved and all you
have to do as the victimsurvivor is keep showing them
that genuine love.
They will eventually see thatthe perpetrator parent because
perpetrators will always trip upbecause they don't know how to
(26:24):
love when it comes to asituation where they need to put
their child's needs first, theywon't do it.
They are 100 percent andeventually, as the children get
older, they will see that theperpetrator parent isn't putting
them first and they will seethat the victim survivor parent
is the one that's constantlytrying to put their needs before
their own or anybody else'syeah, absolutely, no, totally,
totally agree with that.
Tamsin Caine (26:45):
It's really hard to do because when you take a
long time when you see the otherperson and and it, yeah, it can
be it can be years to to getthrough that.
There's another term that'svery jargony that we hear used
and I just want to touch on thisbecause it it's something I did
(27:06):
a talk yesterday, um, and itwas something that came up
during the during the talk.
Um is about gas lighting,because this has a massive,
massive impact on the victim'ssurvivors' confidence, on the
way that they deal withinformation that's given to them
(27:28):
by other people, not just theperpetrator.
Could you talk a little bitabout what gaslighting is and
the impact that it has and howit's sometimes used by
perpetrators?
Lucy Wade (27:40):
Yeah, so just to give a little bit of general
knowledge.
We hear a lot about the termgaslighting, but it's originally
from I think it was a playfirst and it was turned into a
film.
I think it was.
If anyone's old enough toremember Ingrid Bergman, she
plays the character who is beinggaslighted and it was something
like 1943, I think.
The film and the story aroundit is that she's losing.
(28:03):
She feels like she's losing hermind.
You know she's going insanebecause of the games that her
partner is playing.
Her husband is playing toconvince her that she's insane.
And that is essentially whatgaslighting is somebody trying
to convince you that yourreality isn't what it is.
It it's to absolutely get youin a state and just to give an
example I think I touched on GPsbefore you will find that
(28:25):
victims and survivors- willcontact their GP, and I'm
talking about people who are intheir 30s who are convinced that
they're going through earlydementia or they are going
through early stages ofAlzheimer's because they're so
convinced.
The perpetrator said to them butdon't you remember?
I told you that no, I said Iwas going out.
Don't you remember I paid thatbill, or don't you remember?
Or to the point where they'retaking out loans in that
(28:47):
person's name, and so thegaslighting is very, very
dangerous.
Obviously it's verymanipulative, but it can
actually make somebody feel likethey are losing their mind, and
that me is you know we talkabout the physical aspect of
abuse gaslighting is is an areaagain that everybody sort of
knows, the term, but doesn'treally understand um the the
(29:09):
devastation that it does cause.
And yeah, for somebody to get tothat point where they feel like
they're losing their mind thatif you can imagine, that's how
clever a perpetrator is, thatthey can make that as you know,
to one human being to another,they can convince that person
that they they are losing theirmind and that will obviously
affect their mental health it'snot a.
Tamsin Caine (29:29):
It's not a one-off situation gaslighting, is it?
It's not some.
It's done subtly and carefullyand controlling and over a
period of a huge amount of timeto get people to the point where
they believe that they're goinginsane and that the reality
(29:52):
that they're experiencing isn'tactually the reality.
That's not.
That's not done over a week ora couple of days or whatever
it's.
That's that's years worth ofabsolutely putting that behavior
into place, isn't it?
it's terrifying yeah, oh, it isis, and I, I sort of I think I
(30:12):
use the term drip fed, so it'slike a it's like you know, they
drip feed these comments andthese.
Lucy Wade (30:17):
You know, and from the very, very beginning, when
you know again terminology, wetalk about love bombing in the
beginning.
So in the beginning it's likethis person is so perfect, you
know everything, just care aboutme.
They put me on a pedestal.
Everything's amazing,everything's wonderful.
And over time, you know, theyslowly start to show who they
are.
But then they apologize.
So now we're in the trauma bond, so now we want to get back to
the bit where we were happy withthat person.
(30:38):
So we keep going around andaround and around.
And then obviously they bringin the gaslighting, the coercive
control.
They bring in if the physicalelement comes in.
You know there's.
I think that's why it is hardfor society to understand,
because and what I'll often sayis- if I'm doing a session and
somebody says well, you know,it's all very interesting, but
this doesn't impact me.
(30:58):
I will always say how do youknow?
Because your life to you mayseem normal, and that's fine,
but what's your normal?
Is your normal that you don'thave control of?
your finances is your normal.
You don't have control of whatyou wear.
You know, you know what kind ofand something as simple as um
again this came out in a sessiona while ago was around tea bags
, so the perpetrator pickingwhat type of tea you drink.
(31:22):
So I know somebody who at theend of the relationship, when
they managed to leave and wouldhave pg tips over Yorkshire tea
because they could decide whattea bags they had.
That's how insidious, that'show deep rooted it is that
someone can have that level ofcontrol Because we all go oh, I
wouldn't let someone dictate tome.
But it's not like that.
(31:43):
It happens very slowly, oh Ijust bought them in the shop and
then every week it happens andbefore you know it you're there
and you're just accepting it.
Tamsin Caine (31:51):
You know um so it can be as simple as that yeah, I
think certainly I have workedwith people who, at the point at
which they first come to me, donot realize that they've been
in an abusive relationship.
They don't, and it's and Ithink you've said it earlier
today it's not the fists, it'snot those people who've got
(32:14):
black eyes, it's not the peoplewho've got broken arms, it's not
just the domestic violence thatwe need to worry about.
Domestic abuse runs deep andsometimes the mental harm can be
as bad, if not worse, than thephysical harm.
That's done and, as I say, it'swhat becomes somebody's normal.
(32:35):
So they'll come to see me andwe'll start talking about money
and the finances and we'll, youknow, we'll gradually talk about
you know what money have yougot?
Where is it?
Oh, you've got an ISA Fantastic, who's that with?
And a lot of the time it's likeI don't know, don't know where
my money is.
Yes, it is in my name, but Idon't.
It's.
He's got the password.
(32:56):
I have asked him, but I'm notallowed.
You know, he won't, he won'tgive me the information.
And suddenly that becomes thisgradual realization.
Actually, maybe what I thoughtwas okay actually wasn't okay,
and it can kind of comes out atthat stage.
So even even at the stage wherethey they've left, they don't.
Lucy Wade (33:23):
Yeah, and I think that's why it's so important the
work that you do and likeyourselves because know it's
talking to somebody like myselfwho at the time was working for
a domestic abuse charity peopledon't necessarily know to seek
that support.
So when it's in theirday-to-day lives and it's
something that they're having todeal with, to be able to talk
to people who understand and say, okay, I can talk you through
(33:46):
this.
And then, like you say, you know, in a gentle way, be able to
say well, have you thought that?
maybe because you don't knowwhat the password is, or you
know, and again, it's that, it'sthat lovely.
You know with you.
There's no victim blaming,there's no kind of well, how can
you not know what the passwordis?
I had somebody on an episoderecently called Sharon Jackson
and she's a social worker andshe talks about an incident in
(34:06):
court.
Court, wait, now we're talkingsocial workers and the social
worker who she was opposite takeside of the table to was
actually saying to the victim umwell, why didn't you just leave
?
you know, this is what we'retalking about.
The language that's used is youknow how, how?
terrible is that that, andyou're a social worker, but so
for people?
like yourselves, who are workingday in, day out with with an
(34:27):
area of which is very, veryimportant and obviously it's
very scary for somebody ifthey've never dealt with it.
It's so important to havepeople like yourself that know
to have that unconscious bias tonot go in there with any kind
of well I could have told you sowhich very often family and
friends tend to say to to theirloved ones who've experienced
this.
And I think it's so importantthat people like you are doing
what you're doing because KarenKipping came on and we
(34:51):
ironically, one of the blogsshe's written for you Don't Own
Me is all around.
Is it abuse if my partnerdoesn't hit me?
And it's a question I used toget asked a lot when I run
groups within the charity andyou know somebody would sit
there and say, well, they neverhit me, so it can't possibly be.
And it's having that verygentle conversation around.
Okay, well, let's break thisdown and let's look at certain
(35:11):
areas and eventually they kindof go oh, my God, you know it's
like that light bulb moment andcoming out of that fog and
saying, wait a minute.
So the fact that they called meevery name under the sun, yes,
that's verbal abuse.
You know they would lie to meabout where they were, but
convince me so, yes, that'sgaslighting and psychological
abuse they were, but convincedme so that, yes, that's
(35:31):
gaslighting and psychologicalabuse and it just.
You know, you have to treadcarefully, because you're
basically telling somebody thatwhat they've been living isn't
real and that can have massive.
That's why I talk a lot aboutself-care as well, because that
can be huge, a huge lifesaver
Tamsin Caine (35:46):
That's enormous.
Um, I want to ask you about thework that you do, but before I
that, just whilst I'm thinkingabout it, this abuse in any
definition of the word.
It's across the board, it's not.
It's not financial specific.
So it doesn't matter if you'vegot millions in the bank or
(36:07):
nothing in the bank.
Millions in the bank or nothingin the bank, it's not going to
be selective.
There are not.
It's not.
Oh well, it only happens topeople who were in X category or
below Y category.
You know, we see it acrossmultimillionaires and across
people who, unfortunately, havevery little.
It's not picking out particularpeople, is it?
Lucy Wade (36:32):
it's right, but that is such an important point to
make.
And again, within the sessions,I think I highlight one of the
sentences I usually say is abusedoesn't discriminate you know
it doesn't pick a particulardemographic and say I'm gonna,
you know I'm gonna go there.
It's not like that, like you say, it's across the board.
It doesn't matter if you've gota million pounds or one pound.
You know that an abuser willabuse because it is about power
(36:55):
and control.
Um, and that's.
You know.
That's where, unfortunately,that's where it is terrifying.
It's not like when you'retrying to talk to people you say
, well, just pinpoint it for meand you can't.
You can't because anyone can beabusive.
If they choose to be you knowcontrolling and you know wanting
power, then then they will beabusive
Tamsin Caine (37:15):
It's not.
It also doesn't discriminate onon race or sexuality.
We've we've um had on our firstepisode of this series, a lady
who's in um a gay relationship,lesbian relationship, and she's
suffered abuse at the hands ofher ex and that's ongoing,
(37:36):
unfortunately.
And you know it really isn'tlike when you say it's not
discriminative, it really isn'tlike by age, by gender, by
sexuality, by race, by itunfortunately is happening
across the board.
Lucy Wade (37:53):
It is and I think you're 100% right and I think
there can actually then beadditional challenges.
So when I talk about the impactof abuse, you know for somebody
who I've got a lady coming onin a few weeks and she has
cerebral palsy and she's deafand she has a British Sign.
Language interpreter and I had aconversation with her
interpreter and I have to admit,as professional as I am, I got
really emotional about itbecause you know, we think, the
(38:14):
challenges that somebody faceswho's able-bodied, you think of
the additional challengechallenges that somebody faces
when they are not able to takecare of themselves and they need
somebody else to help and thatabuser will use that as a way to
control and and abuse.
And again, you know BAMEcommunity and I've got later
coming on in a few weeks we'retalking about the challenges for
(38:34):
BAME communities.
So obviously, ethnic minoritiesaround.
If there's an issue over, maybea translator is needed.
If they've gone to the police,that can take time and by the
time the translator arrives theperpetrators manage to convince
them not to say anything and todrop you know the charges and
looking for support in their ownlanguage.
And you know there's so many.
(38:55):
And again, like you say, LGBTQplus it's.
I did work with somebody whowas supporting somebody who
talked about their ownexperience.
They've been completelyostracized and isolated by their
own family because of theirchoice of relationship and when
they went for support they weretold you know well, what do you
want us to do about this sort ofthing?
(39:16):
And it's, and again, it'sknowing where to look for that
support.
So say for, in Manchester, itwould be LGBT foundation or it
would be Gallup, or it would youknow, it's knowing, and that's
why I think, with my website, Itry and create resources that
are for everybody rather than just, you know, pinpointing
different areas, because itimpacts everybody
Tamsin Caine (39:36):
We're coming to the end of our conversation,
although I could talk to you allafternoon um, in fact, we
nearly did before we record onthe podcast, um, because we can
talk, can't we?
Um, I'd love to to know, justbefore we go, how people can um
access your support, how yousupport people who are um going
(40:01):
through post-separation abuse.
We'll obviously put links topodcasts and to your websites
and so on um in the show notes,but but just tell us a bit about
how you support people.
Lucy Wade (40:12):
Yeah, so through my, I kind of have two channels.
So one is the podcast, which isa community interest company,
which is there as a resourceSpotify, youtube and it's there
with lots and lots of differentprofessionals, including
yourself, who are giving amazingadvice that you may not want to
go and seek through a supportservice.
So it's to give people that maynot want to go and seek through
a support service.
So it's to give people thatoption that you can go and
(40:33):
listen to something, dip in andout of it as they choose, and it
may be that there's severalepisodes that resonate with them
.
It may not just be one, itcould be lots of different
things, um, and within withinthat, um, as I say, it's just,
it's just to help somebody ifthey want to go down that visual
route.
Whereas you don't own me, um, Ido, obviously, lots of blogs, I
do lots of guest blogs, whichwill be soon moving over to the
(40:54):
with the podcast that will go ona separate website, but you
don't own me itself.
I work with lots oforganizations and that's how I
support people.
So when organizations um ask meto come in and deliver a
session, I will be talking totheir staff and, again.
You know, if we look at underreporting or if we look at
statistics, somebody within thathundred people that I'm
delivering a session to,inevitably at some point
(41:16):
somebody will come forward andsay actually I'm experiencing
this, and that's where you don'tonly has all the resources you
can go and find out.
Anybody you need to speak to.
Yours are on there as well,obviously, and so that you know
if it is something financial orif it is something um
psychological, whatever is goingon, there's a resource there
and that's how I try and umsupport people through speaking
(41:38):
to organizations and so thatstaff and actually for the
organization to understand wherethey can signpost people to
what they can do about self-care.
If they don't want to look forsupport, how they can, you know,
look after their own well-being?
If they don't want to look forsupport, how they can, you know,
look after their own wellbeing?
If they don't necessarily, ifthe timing isn't right and they
don't want to seek supportimmediately.
I'm trying to cover the wholegambit.
Tamsin Caine (41:59):
Everybody.
That's the way.
That's absolutely brilliant.
Lucy, thank you so much forjoining me today.
It's been fantastic to talk toyou.
I'm sure we'll have you back onagain at some point, because
I'm sure we could talk about somany more things, but for now,
thank you very much for joiningme.
Thank you for listening today.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode or found it useful,
(42:20):
please leave us a five-starreview, because it does help us
to get the podcast out to morepeople.
Thank you and we'll see younext time.
Thank you and we'll see younext time, hi, and I hope you
enjoyed that episode of theSmart Divorce Podcast.
(42:40):
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website,
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onapple podcasts or on spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
(43:04):
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us,and the one thing I would say is
(43:25):
do please answer theirmembership questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpedyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:53):
Hello and welcome to the SmartDivorce Podcast.
I'm very happy to be joinedtoday by lovely Lucy Wade.
She is giving me paybackpodcast because I was very
privileged to be a guest on herpodcast, so Lucy is the creator
(01:13):
and owner of the website YouDon't Own Me and the host of the
podcast "Dip In and Out withLucy, which, if you're watching
on YouTube, you'll be able tosee the lovely picture behind
her with her podcast name.
She also delivers the Let'sTalk series online sessions
around domestic abuse andpost-separation to help
organisations to understand thecomplexities of abuse and what
(01:35):
they can do to support thosearound them.
She's a consultant and a guestspeaker, working with various
organisations to develop theirknowledge and understanding of
domestic abuse, the language andapproach we should all be
taking when talking about abuseand how it impacts us all
directly and indirectly, right?
The next bit I'm going to askher to explain because I've not
(01:58):
got a clue.
So it says "dip in and out withLucy CIC, and then there's
another bit is a one-stop shop,helping people find useful
resources, support services andaccess to knowledge shared by
professionals.
" Did I get most of that right,lucy?
Lucy Wade (02:14):
You did.
I'm very impressed because it'sa bit of a mouthful.
I don't think that would be avery good tagline ever for me,
but it's basically what it says.
Tamsin Caine (02:27):
Excellent one-stop shop, yeah, so.
So before we get, we get stuckinto the meat of the
conversation.
We're going to talk aboutpost-separation abuse, um, so
how did you start to?
Um understand about abuse, towant to get involved in this
area of work, because it's notthe most glamorous and cheerful
(02:51):
topic to spend your life talkingabout that well, 100%.
You've said what most peoplethink when I open my mouth and
say this is what I do for aliving?
Lucy Wade (03:00):
um, you're 100% right .
Yes, it is, and I think that'sprobably the reason I wanted to
do it.
More than anything is becauseit's such a a taboo subject, in
a way, and and we talk aboutdomestic abuse and we're
currently in, you know, domesticviolence awareness month, um
but actually post-separationabuse is something that just is
either overlooked, isn'tunderstood, and it was just an
(03:23):
area for me that I felt reallyneeded to be highlighted, and I
myself was a service user of mylocal charity, and then I was a
volunteer because I wanted togive back, and then I went one
step further and started workingfor them.
And when I was working for thecharity, I was out in the
community talking a lot toservice users, and what I
(03:44):
started to notice was, you know,obviously charities have
funding and then funding comesto an end.
So if you're having support,that support isn't going to go
on forever.
That support will last maybethe length of your group
facilitation or your one to onesessions.
And you know, if you have IDVAsupport, it will eventually come
to an end.
And it's what do you do then?
(04:11):
And that, for me, was where Ifelt you don't owe me, as my
website could step in.
And then, obviously, thepodcast, and it was all one big
kind of idea in my head and Ijust needed to kind of get it
down and think how am I actuallygoing to achieve?
this and how is this going towork?
And it's been.
I think it was April 2023.
I kind of put the podcast outthere and started the website
and since then, thankfully,things seem to be going from
strength to strength.
Tamsin Caine (04:31):
Long, long, long long.
May that continue, because itis an indispensable service that
you provide and one that'svitally important.
And had a similar conversationwith Karen Kipping, who came on
to talk about being an IDFA andkind of supporting people in
court, and we talked about thepossibility of private IVA type
(04:54):
of scenario, which I think isthe way she sort of describes
herself.
But what you were saying aboutpost-separation abuse and it not
being understood, there'sdefinitely a thought out there
that once you've left,everything will be all right and
all the nastiness comes to anend and it's all flowers and
(05:20):
roses and you can get on withyour life and it's all beautiful
again.
Um, and that's not entirely thesituation, is it?
Lucy Wade (05:29):
no, absolutely not.
And I only had thisconversation with somebody the
other day saying you know, youwatch those films, um, where it
talks about domestic abuse, andthen by the end of it it's all
sorted.
So in the space of a couple ofhours it's all been dealt with
and there you go and they, youknow, ride off into the sunset.
Like you're saying, it's allflat and great, life's great.
And post-separation abuse anddomestic abuse itself isn't like
that.
(05:49):
It is that continuation.
And one of the biggest things Italk about in my series, in the
sessions I do, is about mythbusting and misconceptions and
around that idea that whenpeople say, well, why didn't
they just leave, you know, well,they've left, now everything
should be okay.
But that actually very often Iwould say 99.9% of the time, if
(06:11):
not 100% of the time it is goingto ramp up, because the whole
point of an abuser, of aperpetrator, is they want to
keep control and retain thatpower and control over you.
So once you try to leave thesituation or and I'm not, and I
always say it's not everybodycan leave, it's never an
assumption that everybody canleave but if you do leave the
situation, then very often itwill get worse before it can
(06:35):
possibly get better.
And that's where I think thesupport is needed, because that
and if children are involved,you know, and you're in for a
very long process of familycourt become involved and you
basically are tied to thatperpetrator.
And it's finding ways ofsupporting yourself, supporting
your mental health, because Icall it a marathon, not a sprint
.
Tamsin Caine (06:55):
Absolutely, absolutely.
On the podcast about leavingand about how many times it
tends to take victim survivorsof domestic abuse to leave the
situation.
But today we want to focus onwhat happens afterwards, what
(07:17):
sort of things people might needto prepare themselves for.
I guess if you're going toleave, if you're preparing to
leave, that's hard enough, butyou do need to prepare for
what's going to happen next.
So can you give us someexamples of some of the things
that you might be up against,even if you do manage to leave?
Lucy Wade (07:39):
Absolutely so.
In particular, I would say,obviously in terms of where
you're going to live, because ifthe perpetrator is in control
of the finances, are youprepared for the fact that you
may have to go intoaccommodation?
Are you prepared for the factthat you may have to live with
family or friends for a periodof time while you start to
rebuild your life?
You know there's a lot ofthings around.
(08:00):
Even just where you're going tolive is a really difficult
conversation.
Even just where you're going tolive is a really difficult
conversation.
If then it does get to the point, as I was saying, around either
family courts, you know.
If the police are involved, ifsocial services are involved you
may be seeing your GP you mightbe concerned that you know
there are things going on foryou mentally, because very often
a perpetrator will convince avictim or survivor that they're
(08:22):
mentally unwell.
So there's so manyorganizations and agencies that
you could be involved in andwith, and I think it is that
getting that help and gettingthat support, because if all
those agencies are involved,what you have to prepare
yourself for is you arerepeating yourself over and over
and over again.
So I've supported people whowill say well, I spoke to this
(08:42):
social worker today, but they'venow moved teams, so now I've
supported people who will say,well, I spoke to this social
worker today, but they've nowmoved teams, so now I've had to
repeat everything and go over itall again.
Or, if it comes to the police,this person has now moved on to
another role, so I've had torepeat it all again.
And this is why I think there'sa massive, massive issue with
underreporting because, I thinkmost people get to a point where
they are so exhausted they'rejust trying to put one foot in
(09:02):
front of the other.
They're trying to, if they havechildren, support their
children.
If they have a job, they'retrying to hold down a job and
doing all of this.
I call it spinning 50,000 platesdoing all this while trying to
live a life and by trying toalso keep the perpetrator at a
reasonable distance, and none ofit's easy.
So I would definitely saythat's where support is so
(09:24):
important, and what many peoplewill say is well, my partner
never hit me, therefore it isn'tabuse, and this is why, when we
call it domestic violenceawareness month.
I think it can be so misleadingbecause if we incorporate abuse
as well, well, that includes thefinancial, the psychological,
the emotional, the physical.
You know there is so many thesexual, there's so many other
(09:45):
areas to include, and I thinkthat's why a lot of people won't
seek support, because theythink it doesn't impact them.
But what I would always say isthere is no support service out
there that is going to turn youaway.
If you phone up and say I thinkI'm experiencing this, but I'm
not sure, then they will gothrough that process with you
(10:05):
and there's nothing to fear andthere's nothing to be ashamed of
because they're trained to helpyou?
Tamsin Caine (10:08):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's a really
important point to make thatit's not your fault.
You've not asked for this.
This is something that somebodyelse is doing to you, and I
know that we feel that there'smassive underreporting across
the board.
(10:29):
But it certainly feels likeit's possible that the
underreporting is even moreextreme with men than with women
, because I think men are evenmore unwilling to open up about
it because it feels likesomething that shouldn't be
happening I mean, it shouldn'tbe happening to anybody but that
(10:50):
they feel like they can't openup about it and go and seek help
from these services.
So I think it's massivelyimportant what you've said about
people need to seek help.
Just want to come back tosomething that you said about
housing, just because you arebeautifully careful about the
(11:11):
words that you choose, but justwant to clarify something for
the listeners who are not aufait and used to the language
around housing.
So when you talk aboutaccommodation, could you just
explain what you mean by that interms that perhaps listeners
who aren't aware of what thatmeans could understand
(11:33):
Absolutely.
So, as I said, before.
Lucy Wade (11:35):
You may not be in a position where you can afford to
go and rent somewhere yourself.
You may not be in a position tostay with family or friends.
It may be that you've been soisolated that you have no
support network in terms offamily and friends and it's
going to take time, maybe if youwanted to rebuild those
relationships.
So this is where, if you dospeak to your local support
(11:56):
services, that's where they canlook at what's called
accommodation.
So that would be refuge.
It's always scary when peopleuse the word refuge because it
just makes it sound so dark andscary.
And actually I've been inrefuge uh, in Trafford myself
and they're not at all.
They're incredibly amazingplaces that make people feel so
safe.
Um, they're there.
(12:17):
You know.
You're probably safer there thananywhere else you know, and
that's where you're made to feellike it's your home.
It's, you know, and you canhave your own room.
And if you have children, youknow, and that's where you're
made to feel like it's your home.
It's, you know, and you canhave your own room.
And if you have children, youknow it can accommodate children
.
There are male refuges as well,especially again in trafford.
At the moment we've you know,that's recently opened I think
last year, um and it's it'sstarting to become more
(12:39):
understood that it isn't a scaryplace, accommodation or refuge.
It's where you're going to getthe support that you need and
also the time, because at thatpoint you're in crisis, you know
your whole life has unraveledand you know you're blaming
yourself, you're panicking andworrying about everything.
So if you're in accommodation,you have that support there for
you.
So, and then over time, it canbe that it ends up in tier
(13:03):
housing.
Then over time, it can be thatit ends up in tier housing.
So that means that eventuallyyou may end up in in housing, as
in a house, rather than itbeing a room within
accommodation.
So it just takes time, but itgives people that time to gather
their thoughts and and actuallytake a breath for a minute .
Tamsin Caine (13:20):
That that makes it .
That makes a lot of sense.
And we talk about all of thethings that you've got going on
post separation.
You know you've left the familyhome.
You've probably taken thechildren with you, if if there
are children not necessarily,but you probably have and
certainly for clients I workwith the ones that are not
(13:44):
experiencing domestic abuse.
It's still a full-time jobgetting divorced, but getting
divorced with domestic abuse inthe background it's not really
even in the background, as it'sin the foreground and every
ground there is.
But even with that going, withthat going on on top, that whole
(14:07):
process of getting divorced isis kind of even bigger, isn't it
?
Can you give us some examplesof of some ways in which the
abuse continues through andalmost because of the divorce
process?
Lucy Wade (14:24):
Yeah, absolutely, and again, this is kind of like the
meatiest bit for me now,getting into the impact that it
has.
Post-separation abuse andpeople like you just said about
divorce in itself is very rarelystraightforward, but add
domestic abuse into that mix andit complicates things a lot.
It could be, for example,things like you may have an
(14:47):
arrangement in terms of childmaintenance.
So if you do have children ormaybe something there, what the
perpetrator will do will usethat as a weapon either not pay
the amount of money that they'vebeen told by CMS to pay they
won't pay it in on time They'llpay a different amount.
It's all little things thatcoercive control to keep you on
edge, and for a lot of people,that's what they're relying on
(15:08):
to maybe pay a bill or to buyfood, and it's the way of if
they've been controlled in therelationship, either what they
wear, what they eat.
This is a continuation of that.
So, wear what they eat.
This is a continuation of that.
So, and even speaking to CMS,they give um, the paying parent
five days, so what you'll findis they may leave it till the
very last day before they can bereported, and so it's just to
add that anxiety, that stressconstantly and they may.
(15:31):
They may scare the victim orsurvivor into saying don't go to
children.
You know child maintenanceservices, I can't afford that
guilt them into not going sothat then they have a private
arrangement.
But that means that the victimsurvivor may be losing out on
vital funds that they need, thatthey're entitled to and things
like the family court.
I mean, I think we could do anentire episode or two or three
(15:54):
on that, but in terms of tyingthings, up there into mediation
forcing mediation to the pointwhere the victim or survivor is
so intimidated by that person.
They don't want to be in thesame room with them, but they're
being forced into that, andthat, for a perpetrator, is
their idea of heaven.
They can turn on the charm.
They know how to behave infront of people and they also
(16:15):
know how they're going to behavebehind closed doors.
They also know how they'regoing to behave behind closed
doors.
So it's that giving themconstantly, that platform, that
theatre that they love to looklike they're the victim.
They're the one that's, you know, hard done to.
There's so many ways.
(16:35):
You know, I've had cases wherepeople have been trying to go to
say the GP for support andthings, and one person in
particular was talking about thefact that they had disabilities
but their partner was theircarer.
So they can be involved becausethey've given them permission to
speak to their GP for them.
There's so many ways that theycan keep that.
That wheedling into your lifeand removing them is not
straightforward and I thinksometimes that's why I try and
(16:55):
be honest.
I never want to scare anyoneand I think it's the best thing
to do.
It's like anything, isn't itForewarned is forearmed and
prepared, and preparing yourselffor what's to come.
Tamsin Caine (17:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've heard a fair bit recentlyabout something that I've legal
abuse, where essentially theperpetrator is using the divorce
to rack up enormous legal billsin their name to reduce the
(17:30):
value of the marital pot andalso to force the victim
survivor tip to almost have tokeep up or or not doing things
and not, um, not responding tothings, so that you have to send
more letters, you have to domore work to get to the
(17:51):
information, which again rampsup the costs.
Have you got any examples ofanything like that happening?
Lucy Wade (17:59):
I think off the top of my head there have been cases
where that is 100% true,because what perpetrators will
do, they will know that.
Say, for example, they have abarrister over solicitor, a
barrister is going to cost morethan a solicitor is going to
cost.
So it can be that intimidationthen for the victim survivor who
may have nothing, to then say,well, how am I going to afford
this?
If they can use a McKenziefriend, great.
(18:24):
But at the same time, does aMcKenzie friend have the
experience, the knowledge, thatthey're going to need to battle
it out with a barrister or asolicitor, you know, sending
letters, like you say, over veryminuscule things just to keep
that going.
So it costs.
So then they have to respond tothem there If they do have
legal representation and they'rehaving to respond.
And something that came inrecently that I noticed in a few
(18:45):
different cases were aroundactually still living in the
family home.
You know that doesn't getdiscussed enough.
So whilst the divorce is inprocess, the two people because
neither can leave necessarily,or perpetrator just doesn't want
to leave, and they're thenhaving to live under the same
roof whilst the whole process isgoing on, which is continuing
(19:06):
the abuse.
Tamsin Caine (19:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's really terrifying, isn'tit the way that these sorts of
things continue.
What is the impact on victimsand survivors of separation
abuse?
What impact can it have?
I guess firstly during thedivorce process, because that's
(19:31):
where we're kind of talkingabout at the minute.
Lucy Wade (19:35):
I think you know, if say, for example, as I mentioned
before, if the victim orsurvivor had been seeking
support through the GP, veryoften a GP might offer
antidepressants, something likethat.
This is something then thatperpetrators will use as part of
the divorce against you know,in terms of character
assassination.
Almost Well, they takeantidepressants.
There must be something wrongwith them.
(19:55):
Actually, that person is tryingto manage their mental health
and should be applauded fortrying to do something about it,
and I think that's the impactof it, and not just on the
individual themselves, but ifchildren are involved very often
and again I sometimes get funnylooks for saying this, but
unfortunately.
it's true, children will loveboth parents, regardless of
whether one is the perpetratorand one is the victim, and and
(20:16):
very often the child will blamethemselves you know, I've again
I've been lucky to work withchildren and young people as
well and of whether one is theperpetrator and one is the
victim, and very often the childwill blame themselves.
You know, I've been lucky towork with children and young
people as well.
And they will say you know,it's my fault.
It's my fault, I didn't behave.
I wasn't good enough.
That's why this has allhappened.
And the sad thing for them isit's normal to them, that's
normal life.
So you're trying to have tounpick that and say actually
(20:39):
that behavior wasn't acceptable.
You know, and do it in a verygentle way that they understand
that it isn't their fault.
And one thing I often use withthe work I do now is something
called the circle of control,and it works as well for adults
as it does for children andbecause of the impact it has,
because it can be things likeeven just something as simple as
saying we'll have a neutralpoint where we arrange to hand
(21:00):
over the children, for example,and then the perpetrator at the
last minute will change thelocation, change the time.
It's all these little thingsjust to cause more anxiety, more
stress.
It's when you have this circleof control in front of you, the
outer part of the circle issaying you know, what can't you
control?
You can't control how theybehave, you can't control the
fact they're going to send amessage saying you know, what
can't you control?
(21:20):
You can't control how theybehave, you can't control the
fact they're going to send amessage saying you know, I'm
going to change it to 2.30, fromtwo o'clock or whatever it is,
even if you're on route,whatever it may be, you can't
control that.
What you can control in theinner circle is how you respond
to it.
So, as much as you're angry, asmuch as it's not fair taking
that to one side and saying, ok,fine, I'm not going to respond,
because the more you give theperpetrator the oxygen and that
(21:41):
fuel, the more they that's,that's what they feed off.
So it's actually learning tostand back and say because,
unfortunately, that impact willkeep going on, because they know
they're getting to you.
Tamsin Caine (21:51):
Yeah, it is like dealing with children, isn't it?
Isn't it?
You know?
That's exactly what we'retaught to as parents, or told as
parents.
You know don't kind of respond,because if you respond, that's
exactly what the child's lookingfor a response for attention,
for whatever from you.
And it's exactly the same withperpetrators, isn't it?
Lucy Wade (22:13):
Yeah, stamping their feet when they don't get their
own way?
Yeah, yeah.
Tamsin Caine (22:17):
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's terrifying.
Um, so we've talked about kindof during the divorce process,
but unfortunately, even afteryou've got through the divorce
process and you've got yourfinancial settlement sorted and
housing, hopefully, is sorted bythis point and life feels like
(22:40):
it can start to move on, thereare still many instances where
the abuse still continues.
It might have lessened a littlebit because you're not in the
house with them all the time,you're not having to deal with
them every second of the day,but there are still and not all
the time, but there are stillperpetrators who will continue
the abuse even after after thedivorce concludes as well.
(23:03):
What can you give us someexamples and some some things
that that might be going on atthat point?
Lucy Wade (23:09):
yeah absolutely so obviously, stalking and
harassment is something we'veheard about for a very long time
.
Obviously, in terms of abuse,now it is.
It is an offense, but it isn'tjust an in-person thing anymore.
It is something that they canuse social media.
The perpetrator can usetrackers on cars.
They can, if children areinvolved, contact the children
through online gaming, even ifthere's a restraining order or
(23:29):
non-molestation order in place.
So there's lots and lots ofways a perpetrator can still
infiltrate their lives and theyfeel, like you know, for the
victim survivor.
It feels for them like there'sno escape.
And one thing I talk about againin the sessions I do is around
terminology, so we hear allthese words like love bombing,
trauma, bonding and whatperpetrators will do in terms of
(23:50):
thing is they know or theythink they know you and they
think they know how to get toyou.
So it could be emails ormessages saying and you know I
miss you and it was all a bigmistake and I'm sorry.
And because that person hasbecome trauma bonded with the
perpetrator, they may feel sorryfor them and they they may
contact them especially if theperpetrator, which again happens
(24:12):
very frequently is I'm going tokill myself or I'm going to
kill the children or harm afamily pet.
These are all classic signs ofwhat a perpetrator is willing to
say and do to get thatattention.
There's also something elsethat I talk about, called
triangulation, again in terms ofterminology.
So when a perpetrator, if youpicture, a triangle if a
(24:33):
perpetrator is, say, at thispart of the triangle, and then
you've got the victim, what theywill do is they will introduce
either a family, friend or workcolleague into the mix.
So if they felt like they'velost control, they will then try
and use those people, um as asalmost like bargaining chips as
a part of a chess game.
So they will say, well, I doreally miss them, I do really
(24:53):
care.
Or the opposite side is,they're insane, they're bonkers
and try and come out with allsorts of stories that then the
family panic and think, well,maybe actually he's right, she's
wrong.
She's right, he's wrong.
It can get very confusing andthen family can be drawn in, to
which you know.
Very often for victims andsurvivors, they don't even know
how to talk to their family andfriends about it.
(25:13):
So they're very, very cleverperpetrators and very cunning.
They know what they're doing soanybody you know I was asked
once about is saying drugs andalcohol.
The reason someone's abusiveand my answer is always the same
it will exacerbate thesituation, but an abuser chooses
to abuse.
It's as simple as that.
Tamsin Caine (25:31):
Yeah, absolutely Interesting what you say about
family being drawn in, becausethe children can often be the
family that's drawn in, can'tthey?
Lucy Wade (25:40):
oh yeah, yeah definitely, and that's again you
know.
If, for example, you havesomebody who's in accommodation
with very little finance, um,and trying to rebuild the life,
you've got a perpetrator who isin a position where they have
lots of money and can do whatthey want.
They will use gifts and youknow they.
They're sort of well, I cantake you on these amazing
holidays, I can do what theywant.
They will use gifts and youknow the sort of well, I can
take you on these amazingholidays and I can do all this,
(26:03):
which again makes the victimsurvivor parent feel worthless,
that they can't provide allthose things for the child.
And again, when I have workedwith people, what I will always
come down to say is a childwants to be loved and all you
have to do as the victimsurvivor is keep showing them
that genuine love.
They will eventually see thatthe perpetrator parent because
perpetrators will always trip upbecause they don't know how to
(26:24):
love when it comes to asituation where they need to put
their child's needs first, theywon't do it.
They are 100 percent andeventually, as the children get
older, they will see that theperpetrator parent isn't putting
them first and they will seethat the victim survivor parent
is the one that's constantlytrying to put their needs before
their own or anybody else'syeah, absolutely, no, totally,
totally agree with that.
Tamsin Caine (26:45):
It's really hard to do because when you take a
long time when you see the otherperson and and it, yeah, it can
be it can be years to to getthrough that.
There's another term that'svery jargony that we hear used
and I just want to touch on thisbecause it it's something I did
(27:06):
a talk yesterday, um, and itwas something that came up
during the during the talk.
Um is about gas lighting,because this has a massive,
massive impact on the victim'ssurvivors' confidence, on the
way that they deal withinformation that's given to them
(27:28):
by other people, not just theperpetrator.
Could you talk a little bitabout what gaslighting is and
the impact that it has and howit's sometimes used by
perpetrators?
Lucy Wade (27:40):
Yeah, so just to give a little bit of general
knowledge.
We hear a lot about the termgaslighting, but it's originally
from I think it was a playfirst and it was turned into a
film.
I think it was.
If anyone's old enough toremember Ingrid Bergman, she
plays the character who is beinggaslighted and it was something
like 1943, I think.
The film and the story aroundit is that she's losing.
(28:03):
She feels like she's losing hermind.
You know she's going insanebecause of the games that her
partner is playing.
Her husband is playing toconvince her that she's insane.
And that is essentially whatgaslighting is somebody trying
to convince you that yourreality isn't what it is.
It it's to absolutely get youin a state and just to give an
example I think I touched on GPsbefore you will find that
(28:25):
victims and survivors- willcontact their GP, and I'm
talking about people who are intheir 30s who are convinced that
they're going through earlydementia or they are going
through early stages ofAlzheimer's because they're so
convinced.
The perpetrator said to them butdon't you remember?
I told you that no, I said Iwas going out.
Don't you remember I paid thatbill, or don't you remember?
Or to the point where they'retaking out loans in that
(28:47):
person's name, and so thegaslighting is very, very
dangerous.
Obviously it's verymanipulative, but it can
actually make somebody feel likethey are losing their mind, and
that me is you know we talkabout the physical aspect of
abuse gaslighting is is an areaagain that everybody sort of
knows, the term, but doesn'treally understand um the the
(29:09):
devastation that it does cause.
And yeah, for somebody to get tothat point where they feel like
they're losing their mind thatif you can imagine, that's how
clever a perpetrator is, thatthey can make that as you know,
to one human being to another,they can convince that person
that they they are losing theirmind and that will obviously
affect their mental health it'snot a.
Tamsin Caine (29:29):
It's not a one-off situation gaslighting, is it?
It's not some.
It's done subtly and carefullyand controlling and over a
period of a huge amount of timeto get people to the point where
they believe that they're goinginsane and that the reality
(29:52):
that they're experiencing isn'tactually the reality.
That's not.
That's not done over a week ora couple of days or whatever
it's.
That's that's years worth ofabsolutely putting that behavior
into place, isn't it?
it's terrifying yeah, oh, it isis, and I, I sort of I think I
(30:12):
use the term drip fed, so it'slike a it's like you know, they
drip feed these comments andthese.
Lucy Wade (30:17):
You know, and from the very, very beginning, when
you know again terminology, wetalk about love bombing in the
beginning.
So in the beginning it's likethis person is so perfect, you
know everything, just care aboutme.
They put me on a pedestal.
Everything's amazing,everything's wonderful.
And over time, you know, theyslowly start to show who they
are.
But then they apologize.
So now we're in the trauma bond, so now we want to get back to
the bit where we were happy withthat person.
(30:38):
So we keep going around andaround and around.
And then obviously they bringin the gaslighting, the coercive
control.
They bring in if the physicalelement comes in.
You know there's.
I think that's why it is hardfor society to understand,
because and what I'll often sayis- if I'm doing a session and
somebody says well, you know,it's all very interesting, but
this doesn't impact me.
(30:58):
I will always say how do youknow?
Because your life to you mayseem normal, and that's fine,
but what's your normal?
Is your normal that you don'thave control of?
your finances is your normal.
You don't have control of whatyou wear.
You know, you know what kind ofand something as simple as um
again this came out in a sessiona while ago was around tea bags
, so the perpetrator pickingwhat type of tea you drink.
(31:22):
So I know somebody who at theend of the relationship, when
they managed to leave and wouldhave pg tips over Yorkshire tea
because they could decide whattea bags they had.
That's how insidious, that'show deep rooted it is that
someone can have that level ofcontrol Because we all go oh, I
wouldn't let someone dictate tome.
But it's not like that.
(31:43):
It happens very slowly, oh Ijust bought them in the shop and
then every week it happens andbefore you know it you're there
and you're just accepting it.
Tamsin Caine (31:51):
You know um so it can be as simple as that yeah, I
think certainly I have workedwith people who, at the point at
which they first come to me, donot realize that they've been
in an abusive relationship.
They don't, and it's and Ithink you've said it earlier
today it's not the fists, it'snot those people who've got
(32:14):
black eyes, it's not the peoplewho've got broken arms, it's not
just the domestic violence thatwe need to worry about.
Domestic abuse runs deep andsometimes the mental harm can be
as bad, if not worse, than thephysical harm.
That's done and, as I say, it'swhat becomes somebody's normal.
(32:35):
So they'll come to see me andwe'll start talking about money
and the finances and we'll, youknow, we'll gradually talk about
you know what money have yougot?
Where is it?
Oh, you've got an ISA Fantastic, who's that with?
And a lot of the time it's likeI don't know, don't know where
my money is.
Yes, it is in my name, but Idon't.
It's.
He's got the password.
(32:56):
I have asked him, but I'm notallowed.
You know, he won't, he won'tgive me the information.
And suddenly that becomes thisgradual realization.
Actually, maybe what I thoughtwas okay actually wasn't okay,
and it can kind of comes out atthat stage.
So even even at the stage wherethey they've left, they don't.
Lucy Wade (33:23):
Yeah, and I think that's why it's so important the
work that you do and likeyourselves because know it's
talking to somebody like myselfwho at the time was working for
a domestic abuse charity peopledon't necessarily know to seek
that support.
So when it's in theirday-to-day lives and it's
something that they're having todeal with, to be able to talk
to people who understand and say, okay, I can talk you through
(33:46):
this.
And then, like you say, you know, in a gentle way, be able to
say well, have you thought that?
maybe because you don't knowwhat the password is, or you
know, and again, it's that, it'sthat lovely.
You know with you.
There's no victim blaming,there's no kind of well, how can
you not know what the passwordis?
I had somebody on an episoderecently called Sharon Jackson
and she's a social worker andshe talks about an incident in
(34:06):
court.
Court, wait, now we're talkingsocial workers and the social
worker who she was opposite takeside of the table to was
actually saying to the victim umwell, why didn't you just leave
?
you know, this is what we'retalking about.
The language that's used is youknow how, how?
terrible is that that, andyou're a social worker, but so
for people?
like yourselves, who are workingday in, day out with with an
(34:27):
area of which is very, veryimportant and obviously it's
very scary for somebody ifthey've never dealt with it.
It's so important to havepeople like yourself that know
to have that unconscious bias tonot go in there with any kind
of well I could have told you sowhich very often family and
friends tend to say to to theirloved ones who've experienced
this.
And I think it's so importantthat people like you are doing
what you're doing because KarenKipping came on and we
(34:51):
ironically, one of the blogsshe's written for you Don't Own
Me is all around.
Is it abuse if my partnerdoesn't hit me?
And it's a question I used toget asked a lot when I run
groups within the charity andyou know somebody would sit
there and say, well, they neverhit me, so it can't possibly be.
And it's having that verygentle conversation around.
Okay, well, let's break thisdown and let's look at certain
(35:11):
areas and eventually they kindof go oh, my God, you know it's
like that light bulb moment andcoming out of that fog and
saying, wait a minute.
So the fact that they called meevery name under the sun, yes,
that's verbal abuse.
You know they would lie to meabout where they were, but
convince me so, yes, that'sgaslighting and psychological
abuse they were, but convincedme so that, yes, that's
(35:31):
gaslighting and psychologicalabuse and it just.
You know, you have to treadcarefully, because you're
basically telling somebody thatwhat they've been living isn't
real and that can have massive.
That's why I talk a lot aboutself-care as well, because that
can be huge, a huge lifesaver
Tamsin Caine (35:46):
That's enormous.
Um, I want to ask you about thework that you do, but before I
that, just whilst I'm thinkingabout it, this abuse in any
definition of the word.
It's across the board, it's not.
It's not financial specific.
So it doesn't matter if you'vegot millions in the bank or
(36:07):
nothing in the bank.
Millions in the bank or nothingin the bank, it's not going to
be selective.
There are not.
It's not.
Oh well, it only happens topeople who were in X category or
below Y category.
You know, we see it acrossmultimillionaires and across
people who, unfortunately, havevery little.
It's not picking out particularpeople, is it?
Lucy Wade (36:32):
it's right, but that is such an important point to
make.
And again, within the sessions,I think I highlight one of the
sentences I usually say is abusedoesn't discriminate you know
it doesn't pick a particulardemographic and say I'm gonna,
you know I'm gonna go there.
It's not like that, like you say, it's across the board.
It doesn't matter if you've gota million pounds or one pound.
You know that an abuser willabuse because it is about power
(36:55):
and control.
Um, and that's.
You know.
That's where, unfortunately,that's where it is terrifying.
It's not like when you'retrying to talk to people you say
, well, just pinpoint it for meand you can't.
You can't because anyone can beabusive.
If they choose to be you knowcontrolling and you know wanting
power, then then they will beabusive
Tamsin Caine (37:15):
It's not.
It also doesn't discriminate onon race or sexuality.
We've we've um had on our firstepisode of this series, a lady
who's in um a gay relationship,lesbian relationship, and she's
suffered abuse at the hands ofher ex and that's ongoing,
(37:36):
unfortunately.
And you know it really isn'tlike when you say it's not
discriminative, it really isn'tlike by age, by gender, by
sexuality, by race, by itunfortunately is happening
across the board.
Lucy Wade (37:53):
It is and I think you're 100% right and I think
there can actually then beadditional challenges.
So when I talk about the impactof abuse, you know for somebody
who I've got a lady coming onin a few weeks and she has
cerebral palsy and she's deafand she has a British Sign.
Language interpreter and I had aconversation with her
interpreter and I have to admit,as professional as I am, I got
really emotional about itbecause you know, we think, the
(38:14):
challenges that somebody faceswho's able-bodied, you think of
the additional challengechallenges that somebody faces
when they are not able to takecare of themselves and they need
somebody else to help and thatabuser will use that as a way to
control and and abuse.
And again, you know BAMEcommunity and I've got later
coming on in a few weeks we'retalking about the challenges for
(38:34):
BAME communities.
So obviously, ethnic minoritiesaround.
If there's an issue over, maybea translator is needed.
If they've gone to the police,that can take time and by the
time the translator arrives theperpetrators manage to convince
them not to say anything and todrop you know the charges and
looking for support in their ownlanguage.
And you know there's so many.
(38:55):
And again, like you say, LGBTQplus it's.
I did work with somebody whowas supporting somebody who
talked about their ownexperience.
They've been completelyostracized and isolated by their
own family because of theirchoice of relationship and when
they went for support they weretold you know well, what do you
want us to do about this sort ofthing?
(39:16):
And it's, and again, it'sknowing where to look for that
support.
So say for, in Manchester, itwould be LGBT foundation or it
would be Gallup, or it would youknow, it's knowing, and that's
why I think, with my website, Itry and create resources that
are for everybody rather than just, you know, pinpointing
different areas, because itimpacts everybody
Tamsin Caine (39:36):
We're coming to the end of our conversation,
although I could talk to you allafternoon um, in fact, we
nearly did before we record onthe podcast, um, because we can
talk, can't we?
Um, I'd love to to know, justbefore we go, how people can um
access your support, how yousupport people who are um going
(40:01):
through post-separation abuse.
We'll obviously put links topodcasts and to your websites
and so on um in the show notes,but but just tell us a bit about
how you support people.
Lucy Wade (40:12):
Yeah, so through my, I kind of have two channels.
So one is the podcast, which isa community interest company,
which is there as a resourceSpotify, youtube and it's there
with lots and lots of differentprofessionals, including
yourself, who are giving amazingadvice that you may not want to
go and seek through a supportservice.
So it's to give people that maynot want to go and seek through
a support service.
So it's to give people thatoption that you can go and
(40:33):
listen to something, dip in andout of it as they choose, and it
may be that there's severalepisodes that resonate with them
.
It may not just be one, itcould be lots of different
things, um, and within withinthat, um, as I say, it's just,
it's just to help somebody ifthey want to go down that visual
route.
Whereas you don't own me, um, Ido, obviously, lots of blogs, I
do lots of guest blogs, whichwill be soon moving over to the
(40:54):
with the podcast that will go ona separate website, but you
don't own me itself.
I work with lots oforganizations and that's how I
support people.
So when organizations um ask meto come in and deliver a
session, I will be talking totheir staff and, again.
You know, if we look at underreporting or if we look at
statistics, somebody within thathundred people that I'm
delivering a session to,inevitably at some point
(41:16):
somebody will come forward andsay actually I'm experiencing
this, and that's where you don'tonly has all the resources you
can go and find out.
Anybody you need to speak to.
Yours are on there as well,obviously, and so that you know
if it is something financial orif it is something um
psychological, whatever is goingon, there's a resource there
and that's how I try and umsupport people through speaking
(41:38):
to organizations and so thatstaff and actually for the
organization to understand wherethey can signpost people to
what they can do about self-care.
If they don't want to look forsupport, how they can, you know,
look after their own well-being?
If they don't want to look forsupport, how they can, you know,
look after their own wellbeing?
If they don't necessarily, ifthe timing isn't right and they
don't want to seek supportimmediately.
I'm trying to cover the wholegambit.
Tamsin Caine (41:59):
Everybody.
That's the way.
That's absolutely brilliant.
Lucy, thank you so much forjoining me today.
It's been fantastic to talk toyou.
I'm sure we'll have you back onagain at some point, because
I'm sure we could talk about somany more things, but for now,
thank you very much for joiningme.
Thank you for listening today.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode or found it useful,
(42:20):
please leave us a five-starreview, because it does help us
to get the podcast out to morepeople.
Thank you and we'll see younext time.
Thank you and we'll see younext time, hi, and I hope you
enjoyed that episode of theSmart Divorce Podcast.
(42:40):
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website,
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onapple podcasts or on spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
(43:04):
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us,and the one thing I would say is
(43:25):
do please answer theirmembership questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
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