November 22, 2024 • 52 mins
Unlock the secrets to navigating the often complex and challenging terrain of divorce with insights from our esteemed guest, Ceri Griffiths, a divorce financial planner. Discover how power imbalances, especially when one partner possesses greater financial knowledge or negotiation skills, can create significant disadvantages during divorce. Ceri provides invaluable tips on recognizing these imbalances and offers strategies to equip both parties with the tools needed to make informed decisions. Our discussion underscores the urgent need for legal systems to evolve and address economic abuse and coercive control, with a sneak peek into an upcoming report by Resolution.
Ceri Griffiths
What I Stand For
It's my intention to help divorcing women know how to use their financial settlement to create financial well-being and a more rewarding life. I am passionate about this because I believe that financial services has historically been male focused and has marginalised so many women by focusing on growth and products. This means they often feel vulnerable and unprepared at a time when they have to make some of the biggest financial decisions of their lives. I feel it is vital that we level the playing field for women and ensure they have as equal access to expertise as their ex, and that financial services speaks to them in a way that is equally inspiring and motivational. I am on a mission to empower women to become financial capable and to realise that money self-care is the ultimate self-care. They can make their money work for them and achieve peace of mind and a financial plan for a post-divorce life they will love.
Website
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
Smart Divorce
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
, so we're going to be talkingto those who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpedyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:55):
I am very happy to be joinedagain on the podcast by the
lovely Ceri Griffiths, who's afabulous friend of mine, and she
is also a divorce financialplanner, but she works
exclusively with women who aredivorcing millionaires.
So I'm going to let her tellyou a lot more about herself,
(01:16):
because she's award-winning.
She is an absolute superstar inthis area.
So thank you for joining me,Ceri, and do you want to tell
our audience a little bit moreabout you and what you do?
Ceri Griffiths (01:27):
oh, thank you for having me on and thank you
for the lovely introduction andjust thank you for everything
you do in this space.
I love how much support thatyou give to everybody watching,
so big, big advocate of yours aswell, Tam.
So, talking about me and ourfriendship actually, because,
Tam, you are a big reason that Ihave friends in this space and
you started all, so I'm so, sograteful for that um, but let's
(01:49):
talk about um, a little bitabout me and let's talk a little
bit about what I do.
So, yeah, I work exclusivelywith women who are divorcing
millionaires and specificallywhere there's a power imbalance,
that's where I really um feelthat I add the most value and
make the most difference to myclients.
So I'll typically work withclients where their ex is in a
(02:11):
really high-flying role like aCEO or private equity manager,
and they are feeling that thereis an imbalance and there's some
fear and some worry around that.
I hold narcissismqualifications, financial abuse
qualifications and I'm part of aworking party led by Resolution
(02:32):
on economic abuse and theimpact it has on financial
remedy proceedings, and that issomething that I have been part
of now to help create some moreawareness around how these
things specifically show upduring divorce and trying to
create some change from the toplevel about how the legal
(02:59):
proceedings actually recogniseand adapt to what we now are
clearer on than previously,because economic abuse, coercive
control weren't necessarilythings that we massively
understood and as we understandthem more, it's about adapting
and changing and creating moreawareness of that.
Tamsin Caine ,Yeah,.
(03:20):
We've had Olivia Pearcey Piercyalready in this series, so she
talks a fair bit about the workthat your committee are doing
and about the report that, aswe're recording, this has not
been released and it's still topsecret but by the time this
(03:44):
episode comes out, it will beavailable and it'll be in the
show notes of Olivia's episode.
If you want to go back and havea look at that, that would be
brilliant.
And Olivia does talk a bitabout the report, although not
in detail because, as I say,it's all top secret, as we're
talking today.
So we're going to talk a bitabout the power imbalances that
(04:09):
you were talking about before.
So, in terms of the powerimbalances, what do they look
like in terms of relationshipsand how they show themselves in
divorce?
Ceri Griffiths veryIt's very and each couple will
have their own personal dynamicand sometimes there'll be a
power imbalance, but a reallynatural, normal one that can be
(04:34):
easily resolved through someeducation.
And you know, as we develop ourrelationships, it is common for
one party to take over thingsthat they are stronger in prefer
and another party to havehandle other parts.
So within marriages, a powerimbalance often does occur in a
really normal, natural, nothingto be scared about way.
(04:57):
But there are times when thatactually evolves into a place
where there is a realdisadvantage to one party during
the marriage and then as thatmarriage is dissolved and as
they try to rebuild their newlives.
And how it shows up is verymuch a subtle layering of
(05:18):
different elements.
And what I would say is that myclients don't phone me up saying
there's a power imbalance in mymarriage and I would like your
help.
You know it's not necessarilyat the forefront of their minds,
so what they are thinking andwhat they are feeling is
outmatched partner or theirformer partner has more
(05:42):
knowledge, more experience, moreconfidence, not just on money
but also on negotiations andjust in being in a fairly
corporate scenario, which adivorce is.
You know, essentially it's acontract that we're dissolving
and creating a new contract atthe end of, and so there's this
(06:03):
sense of being outmatched andthere's this sense of being very
ill-equipped and unprepared.
So they create the feelingsthat my clients typically have
are fear, worry and lack ofability, and they are seeking
some ways to be able to makesome decisions and feel that
(06:26):
they have a line of sight on thechoices that are being asked to
makeTamsin Caine
yeah, no, I think I think thatand that doesn't just occur in I
.
I know ..
you specialize in working with,with millionaires and and very
wealthy couples, um, but thesepower imbalances can, can, can
occur in lots of different typesof relationships and, you know,
(06:50):
it's not always the superwealthy.
There are power imbalances inother types of relationships as
well.
I'm interested in the powerimbalance that you for.
For me I kind of feel powerimbalance that is like I don't
(07:10):
feel that that sounds like agood thing at any point in the,
at any point in any relationship, and I'm sort of interested
that you kind of feel that thatcan be quite normal and natural.
I'm interested to sort ofexplore that a little bit,
because it feels like powerimbalance feels to me?
(07:31):
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think what is important isthat we don't scare people into
thinking that there's somethingin their marriage that is wrong
because one party is managingthe money and the other party is
not necessarily involved inthat side of things.
Now I strongly believe thateverybody should understand how
(07:51):
money works, understand whatthey've got, understand what
they owe and know what theirlife, you know their plan looks
like.
But it is still a really commonthing to happen, and that
doesn't mean that something iswrong, and so that's the point
that I was making is that don'tpanic if you don't feel that you
(08:11):
understand or know all of thosethings.
It doesn't mean that there iseconomic abuse.
That imbalance is a reallycommon thing.
That happens.
We play to strengths, I think,particularly when you have young
children and there are so manyplates that are being spun.
A lot of the time it's justaround efficiencies and trying
to keep the household running,when you are doing so many
(08:32):
different things and there aretimes and spaces as your
children grow for that dynamicto change.
And I encourage people tochange that dynamic, because it
does mean that you are morelikely to feel confident and to
feel prepared as your marriageprogresses if you are also
(08:53):
involved in those decisions andyou can bring a lot to the table
.
You know that money is not justabout performance and growth,
and different perspectives onhow money should be treated is a
really important part of yourfinancial reviews with your
financial planner.
So for those of you who do havefinancial planners or partners
(09:13):
have financial planners you knowvery much should be a
roundtable group of you talkingabout what does the money need
and how is it going to look, andnot just how has it performed
over the last year.
Tamsin Caine (09:26):
Absolutely with you on that.
I think you're spot on.
You know, it's totally normalfor one person to look after the
money.
Ideally, both are involved and,as you say, craig, if there's a
financial planner, you shouldboth be seeing them.
It should not be one person'sfinancial planner.
(09:47):
It's something we insist onwhen we work with couples.
I think it's the word powerthat makes me go oh no, that's
bad, because if somebody's usingtheir skills and knowledge and
so on to create a powerimbalance and it feels like a
power imbalance, I think for methat's that's where there's an
(10:10):
issue and if, if you feel thatit's a, it's being used as power
, that's probably the time toaddress.
Actually, can you tell me aboutthe money, where it is, what
we've got because, and then ifthere's a reluctant to do that,
then maybe there might be.
Ceri Griffiths (10:31):
yeah, I agree with you, Tam, absolutely it's
knowledge im balance rather thana power imbalance that I'm
describing, and the powerimbalance comes as that dynamic
gets deeper and as the economicabuse comes to light.
for sure,
Tamsin Caine (10:48):
yeah, and I think that's that's the issue that
you're dealing with regularlywith your divorcing clients and
and in the same with me, youknow it's it is this having a
control over the other person,having power over the other
person, having power over theother person and using that to
(11:10):
destroy their confidence, todestroy their ability to
negotiate on behalf ofthemselves in that situation.
So talk to me about how youhelp, because I can.
You know if you, if you'refeeling I mean you're all
everybody is fearful in divorce.
(11:31):
You know divorce creates fear.
Naturally, if you're alsoexperiencing this power,
imbalance and somebody elsehaving control over you, I can
only imagine what those peopleare going through.
So so how do you help?
Where do you start?
Ceri Griffiths (11:50):
yeah, so I have a four-step process called wise.
It's a methodology that isspecifically designed to help
ensure that the people who arefeeling outmatched and
ill-equipped are able to getback onto a level playing field.
Um, the work that I'm doing isis financial planning.
There's an element of itfeeling like coaching, but I
(12:12):
think, alongside what you and Ido, tam, we also need to be
really mindful that the rolethat divorce coaches play and
how important that is when we'vegot this paradigm as well.
Um, and so a lot of what I'mdoing is also linking up with
their divorce coach so that theyhave this arms around them
approach of of having allelements supporting them, so
(12:35):
that they can get back to aplace where they can negotiate
and they do understand and theycan make some decisions.
So, in terms of why, the firstone is wellness and that's
making sure that there is anunderstanding of everything that
is on the table, that there isnothing that seems obscure or
isn't transparent.
And for my clients, that's abit of a journey, because how
(12:57):
high net worth individuals earnis not always transparent.
It is complex and even for themost financially literate people
, it's a difficult thing tonegotiate and understand and
navigate and understand thatmean.
So that first part is very muchlinked in with what the legal
team are doing and getting areally clear set of disclosure,
(13:21):
knowing what the disclosuremeans, asking the right
questions.
So we get to a point wherewe're like, ok, we understand
the status quo and the clientreally understands the status
quo, the status quo and theclient really understands the
status quo.
The second part is intent, andthis is about making sure that
there is some space created formy client to think about what a
full and beautiful life lookslike for her and to really gain
(13:44):
some depth behind that.
So it isn't just I want to keepthe house, I want to keep
things stable for the children,that we get beyond those initial
reactive statements and to aplace where she is able to
picture herself living her bestlife.
And I think it's a really.
For me, it's one of the mostrewarding parts, because what we
(14:06):
tend to uncover is that itisn't about the material things.
Because what we tend to uncoveris that it isn't about the
material things and I think,where you have had a lot of luck
for a lot of wealth, it alsogives you perspective on what
you truly value, and so we spenda lot of time in that intent
phase and ultimately we reducesome costings from now until age
(14:27):
100.
But just for me and the client,we don't use them in the legal
proceedings.
From now to age 100, they changewhen the children leave home.
They change in early retirement, late retirement and we really
get a sense of how much life isgoing to cost in the, in the way
that she's playing out, in theway that she's thinking and
she's dreaming.
It's a space that she can bereally honest because she's not
(14:48):
having to think strategicallyabout well, if I position I need
this much, then they mightnegotiate me down.
It's just a really honest space, her and I and we're working
out what does that actually cost?
And that intense phase thengives us a benchmark and when we
get to the next stage, which isstress test, what we're doing
in stress test is we are lookingat any proposals that her legal
(15:12):
team or his legal team mightmake or that they might create a
mediation or round table, andwe're seeing how that plays
against her ideal life, seeingwhere the gaps are, we're seeing
where we could be creative,we're seeing if it's enough and
what that allows the client todo is actually make decisions
(15:33):
with context, decide toprioritise what is important to
them.
You know we don't always findthat our clients are looking for
the biggest settlement.
What they're looking for is asettlement that works in an
amicable end, and so it givesher that ability to say yeah,
(15:53):
I'll accept that, even if herlegal team are saying you could
get so much more.
What it does is allow her tomake a choice of all the things
that are important to her aboutthis separation yes, the money
is important, but maybe therelationship with that ex is
important, maybe therelationship with their dad and
her viewpoints on that areimportant.
It allows her to weigh up allof those things and make those
(16:16):
decisions.
We do it using cashflowforecasting, so it's a tool that
allows us to show you visuallywhat could happen and then see
if there are some solutions thatwe can come up with or if there
is enough.
And then the last stage isEvolve and in and in evolve, we
are preparing clients to makethe financial decisions that
they need to.
(16:36):
So this stage is abouteducation around how charges
work on investments, howinvestments work in general, the
different varieties you know,sustainable investing all the
things that you would have ifyou had been in that world
during your marriage.
But because you haven't,because you haven been in that
world during your marriage, butbecause you haven't, because you
haven't had that exposure, it'sjust preparing you because my
clients are going to get a biglump sum and so when they get 2
(16:59):
million land in their bankaccount, it's like, okay, here's
all the stuff that you need toknow to make a decision so that
you know how to move forwardwith that.
So that's what I do, so that'sthe process, that's the
methodology, but essentiallywhat I do.
So that's the process, that'sthe methodology, but essentially
you know what we do, tam is, weare that sounding board for our
clients, aren't we?
We are the people that is a thatare able to hold a really safe
(17:19):
space to listen and, I think, toreally hear our clients deeply,
which they don't get often intheir legal meetings because
obviously they're timed andthere's so many other things
that need to become decisionsmade.
So we give them that space tothink deeply, be heard, be
understood, to soundboard withthem, to challenge with them.
You know, I think a really bigthing that I do for my clients
(17:42):
is actually help them seewhether the decisions they're
making are in line with whatwe've worked out.
Their values are in the intentphase and if they're not,
actually say to them well, whyare you now saying this?
What is it that's happening?
Is this an emotional response?
Does this actually links forwhat you want and that and kind
of create that space, um, froman economic abuse point of view?
(18:03):
So my clients very much arelooking to have an expert on
their side because they arefeeling vulnerable and that's
not a word they would use, butthey are feeling disadvantaged
and so from an economic abusepoint of view, they might not
have identified as economicabuse, we might never use that
word.
(18:23):
I probably will speak about itwith their legal team and, you
know, kind of give them a headsup on things that happened.
But we would navigate that anddecide how that's going to
progress.
But I will be that person byher side so that every step of
the way, she feels empowered andable to position what she needs
(18:43):
and why and to accept what ishappening without regret,
without thinking um that that hehas in any way manipulated the
situation, and that's good forboth parties.
That means that both partiescan move on comfortable and
happy that what they've come tois is the right thing for them
(19:04):
as a couple
Tamsin Caine (19:05):
yeah, yeah, no, absolutely so.
Do you think that sometimes yourclients come to you not aware,
like aware that they're notfeeling as strong as the other
party, that there might be apower imbalance?
But that word abuse I know yousaid you don't necessarily use
(19:31):
it with your clients and and thesame here, unless they come to
me with it.
But do you think they'vealready uncovered that there is
that?
Or do you see the red flags andflag it with the legal team and
perhaps there's not actuallythe awareness there?
Ceri Griffiths (19:48):
I think there's a mix, absolutely there's a mix
of people who who have beendoing some research and trying
to understand what's happenedand by the time they come to me,
they're already aware of someof the red flags.
We might uncover more thingsthat they hadn't noticed were
unusual.
And then there are those whojust have a sense that something
(20:09):
isn't right and they can't puttheir finger on it.
You know so.
For example, I've got a clientthat I spoke to this week and
they are separated but they'restill living together in the
home.
The income is around 20,000 amonth, so it's.
I know that's not our typical,you know population don't end,
but but in this scenario it'simportant to point that out.
(20:30):
So the income is £20,000 amonth and the relationship has
been failing for a period oftime and she needs to move out
for a number of reasons.
She needs to move out, he'sgoing to stay in the family home
and he is proposing that shehas £1,500 a month to rent and
(20:52):
to live on.
And so immediately there's thissense oh, ok, from £20,000, why
£1,500?
How does that work?
Kind of unpicking that, and herlegal team will take that
forward.
But what we uncovered and whatwe've been uncovering during
this picture is that she had nomoney of her own, but she did.
At one point, she had her ownflat at one point and when the
(21:13):
flat sold, all the money gotintermingled and it's you can
just see these gradual thingsthat have happened.
That means that she lostfinancial independence, and it's
only when we're kind of blackand white, putting it down and
saying, okay, so where is this,where is that, where does your
money, money go?
And so all of her income goesinto a joint account that he
(21:35):
sees her spending um, and thereis no privacy, there is no um
ability for her to get expertise, to get the assistance that she
needs, without it being flaggedto him.
And so while I am not sittingthere because I think one of the
difficulties we've got if I sitthere and say this is economic
abuse I could put like a realbomb into that separation.
(21:59):
You know, something that maybeis ticking along fairly amicably
could blow up and that couldhave a huge number of knock-on
effects.
But I also need to prepare herand position her so that she
understands the bigger picture.
And what tends to happen is whena client is downloading to you
(22:19):
and they're saying it out loudin one space, like in one period
of time, the red flags becomeapparent to them, like they seem
to self-identify themselves,and then we just work through.
How does this look and what doesthis mean?
And I think one of the biggestimpacts that economic or
financial abuse has isself-worth and self-confidence,
(22:43):
because, alongside having noaccess to funds or independent
access to funds, is a sense thatyou are not good with money,
that you are not worthy of money, that you don't have the same
ability as somebody else, andalso a lack of a network and a
lack of an ability to rebuildyour financial worth because of
(23:09):
the circumstances that lead youto to have this.
So it's really typical for womento find themselves in the high
net worth space, specificallyfind themselves not in work.
Often they are having reallysuccessful careers and
university educated, reallyreally doing well.
They agree that actuallythey're going to focus on his
(23:32):
career because it involvestravel, it involves an awful lot
for somebody to get to a CEOlevel of kind of within a
corporation and that means thatthey over time lose any
connections, any network theyhave and it's really hard after
20 years of not being in thatspace to walk back into it years
(23:55):
I've not been in that space towalk back into it.
So there is a real sense of umnot being able to pick yourself
back up, and that's frightening.
Tamsin Caine (23:59):
Yeah, absolutely, and to, to think about, and, and
there is a level of expectationthat that they will walk back
in the courts, that they will beable to walk back into a career
and pick up where they left off.
20 years ago I mean, 20 yearsago, my mobile phone did not
look like the one that'scurrently sat on my desk.
(24:21):
We weren't having calls likethis.
The workspace is so differentin that period of time and that
feels like a scary thing toexpect on top of all of the
other things that we've talkedabout as well, isn't it?
Ceri Griffiths (24:39):
it is on top of, isn't it?
You know, on top, yeah, thefact that you are massively in a
place of grief.
There's been so much ending somuch and there is so much that
needs to be done to rebuildthese people's self-worth and
self-confidence, and so walkingstraight back into a career that
, like you say, they've been 20years out of is a huge, huge ask
(25:01):
, a huge ask.
Tamsin Caine (25:02):
Yeah, it's crazy.
I'm interested, um, you saidabout um them not having
independent money and it beingdifficult for them to therefore
get the professional advice thatthey need, and and absolutely
agree, say it all the time,unfortunately um, how, how do
(25:23):
they then move forward from thatspace, because that's a really
difficult position.
As you've said, they need ateam around them.
They need a divorce coach, theymay well need therapy, they
need a financial planner, theyabsolutely need a legal team and
their exes, who are thepowerful CEO or whatever, are
(25:47):
going to ensure that they havegot all of those things in place
.
They will have the best legalteam, etc.
How do you deal with that?
Ceri Griffiths (25:57):
they are often, and again, I think this is a
high net worth scenario.
But there are often funds thatthey don't know are in their own
name.
So if their ex has been workingwith a financial planner, what
we often uncover is that thereare ISAs that they have
contributed to every year intheir name and they didn't
necessarily know, and obviouslythat then becomes money that
(26:20):
they can get their hands on andcan create some freedom and a
little bit of a breathing space,which is useful.
There are a variety of ways myclients actually received money
from their exes and I would saythe most typical is that there
is an amount that is paid tothem into a joint or into a sole
(26:42):
account that covers runningcosts, that covers kind of life
etc.
And it is not uncommon for myclients over time to have just
gradually created a little bitof a separate fund, and so
sometimes there are smallamounts of money to one side.
But it is often typical that myclients need to, in the first
(27:05):
instance, meet with a lawyer whowill often do it secretly, you
know, no, no need for them toactually confirm anything and,
and in the first instance, thefirst meeting without any cost,
so without any audit trail andin those meetings what you can
establish is how does that legalteam need to be paid and
(27:26):
litigation funding, whichobviously - do they still
sponsor you Tam?
Tamsin Caine (27:31):
They are and the Ampla finance do support the
podcast.
Yeah, absolutely.
Ceri Griffiths (27:34):
Yeah, and so litigation funding, which I'm
sure you have done episodes on,are a really normal way for my
clients to then access funds,and essentially the way that it
works is that, looking at thepotential assets in the divorce,
the litigation fund, thelitigation lender, will take a
view on how likely they are toget a return back on lending you
(27:58):
the money.
You know how much of a risk itmight be to them and with that
in line, they'll put together apersonalized contract for you
with whatever interest theythink is worth the risk, and you
would pay as you draw thatmoney down and that will give
you access to a pot of money,not just for legal fees but also
for lifestyle, so that you cancontinue during this period.
(28:21):
There are other ways, and thisis, I suppose, more of a legal
question, because you canactually apply for interim
maintenance.
You know there can be ordersput in place for certain assets
to be passed to you.
I see they're less common.
I see litigation funding farmore than the other processes
and actually a big thing thatdoes happen is friends and
(28:43):
family, because those who havepeople close to them who have
some wealth will often be reallygenerous with that as well, and
that can create some wiggleroom and those people can get
repaid at a later date as well
Tamsin Caine (28:58):
yeah, absolutely no, I think that's it.
I think that's a reallyimportant thing, because it is
important to get advice and toget the proper advice, and
sometimes people are like, well,it has to come out that joint
account, I can't get that adviceproperly and professionally and
I'm going to rely on somethingcompletely different, and the
(29:21):
power imbalance gets even worsethen, doesn't it?
Ceri Griffiths (29:25):
yeah, absolutely , and I think one of the big
risks to this population thehigh net worth.
But in general, where there'sthis people fighting like you
get this trope that women inthis situation are gold diggers.
After everything that they canget, you know that they are
(29:46):
really going to take him to thecleaners, and what I see in
reality is the absolute opposite.
Because of the dynamic that hasbuilt up, where they are
lacking the confidence and theself-worth and the fear is there
.
They want to keep thingsamicable for the kids and
they're just wanting to move on.
There's a massive risk thatwomen settle for far less than
(30:08):
is fair and for far less thanworks.
And that is, I think, one ofthe big risks of not getting
advice and big risks of notgetting support, not having a
divorce coach alongside yourfinancial planner so that you
can have the context of what isimportant to you and how this
actually plays out.
And I think it's a really bigrisk in those lower net worth
(30:31):
divorces as well, because we areoften, you know, the smallest
amount of money could make alife-changing difference at that
point as well.
And having some expertise, somestrategic expertise at the right
points could have such animpact
Tamsin Caine (30:48):
yeah, definitely.
I think that one of the thingsthat really winds me up is that
that they took me for everythingI had, like no, they didn't,
because that's not.
If that was possible, it's not.
You know, there's a, there's a,there's a um a spectrum of, of
(31:11):
fair settlements, yes, but butnobody's taking everybody,
anybody, for everything they'vegot.
And I think there's amisunderstanding about assets
and whose name they're in andtherefore who they belong to,
and particularly pensions, andyou must see this all the time,
(31:32):
as I do that.
Well, he said I mustn't goafter his pension, or she said I
mustn't go after her pension.
And I should add, this happensboth ways.
I know we're talking aboutwomen today, but but that's
because Ceri specializes with inworking with women, but it
definitely happens both ways.
Well, I work with men and womenand I've seen it both ways
(31:52):
around.
Ceri Griffiths (31:53):
But it is three times more likely to happen.
Oh sorry, I was gonna say it'sthree times more likely to
happen to women, as researchshows, and one in five women
will experience this type ofabuse.
But yeah, it does happen bothways, and obviously I only work
with women.
Tamsin Caine (32:09):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think I'm.
I'm slightly sceptical aboutthe stats.
Only from the perspective thatI think it's less likely that
men will come forward.
That only from the perspectivethat I think it's less likely
that men will come forward thanwomen will come forward.
So I'm sure that the one infive women is absolutely spot on
(32:29):
.
I'm less sure about the threetimes as many women.
I think men are really lesslikely to come forward just
because this.
This feels like a, anembarrassment, and actually I
see that in the women that Iwork with.
They're they're mortified thatthey've let this happen and it
(32:49):
and it's not you, you've beencontrolled and coerced for many,
many years to get into thisposition.
This has been a strategic,ongoing layering for years and
years, and and there's notsomething that's shameful, but I
I do think we're getting to apoint where more women will be
(33:11):
prepared to come forward thanthe men, because I think they
feel even more shame about it.
But yeah, whether we everactually get to the bottom of
the, the realistics, that's whoknows.
Um, but yeah, what's your,what's your thought on on the,
the whole pensions thing andthat, that, that don't go after
(33:33):
thing, because that gold diggerthing does kind of feel it does
get thrown about it.
It's something that that ourclients feel isn't it.
Ceri Griffiths (33:43):
I think what's really interesting are those
words so don't go after hispension, and that you know
absolutely.
Um, I also think there's areally interesting dynamic here
around where, where adultchildren or, you know, late teen
children are in the mix of thisas well, and the stories and
(34:03):
the fear around what they'rebeing told.
You know, I have clients whosechildren are saying don't go
after dad's pension, why are yougoing after dad's pension?
And there's, you know, allthese complexities that come
into these decisions that leadwomen to settle and to make
decisions that aren't in theirbest financial interest.
(34:23):
And I agree with you.
I think as a society we don'thave the understanding of what
fair truly looks like.
And if we think about thepicture that you have around
equality versus equity, whereyou have three people looking
over a fence and there's threeboxes and one person might have
(34:45):
a higher box than the otherperson to all be able to look
over the fence and that's equal,they're all looking over the
fence.
Just because their box ishigher doesn't mean that they
are having an advantage, and Ithink that is something that is
quite tricky for a lot of peopleto get around.
So how things typicallytranspire for me is that a
(35:05):
client will have this sense thatsomething's not right.
You know this underlying gutfeeling, maybe not have labelled
it.
And then their ex has saidhere's a spreadsheet this is
everything we owe, here'severything we own.
This is what 50-50 looks like.
This is just like the most fair.
Let's not get lawyers involved.
Let's not waste our money.
We can be able, we can do thisnicely, and her gut feeling is
(35:28):
something's wrong, and that'show they often find me.
So I'll reach out and we'lllook at the spreadsheet.
And it isn't necessarily thatspreadsheet is unfair.
You know, if you took his logicand 50 50'd everything, okay,
often there are assets that heconsiders purely his.
You know genuinely in his heartthat pension is his.
(35:50):
Or in his heart, his long-termincentive plan is his.
It doesn't even make it ontothe spreadsheet.
In his heart, future bonuses,even though earned while they
were together, are his.
It doesn't make onto thatspreadsheet.
But also it doesn't address theability for them both to, in
his heart, future bonuses, eventhough earned while they were
together, are his.
It doesn't make onto thatspreadsheet.
But also it doesn't address theability for them both to look
over the fence, the ability forthem both to have an equal
(36:11):
chance at rebuilding theirpost-divorce lives, and that's a
real dynamic to change.
That's one of the hardest things.
Through divorce is to move amindset away from what somebody
thinks is fair to what actuallythe law is saying is fair, and
that's where a lot of money getswasted on legal fees.
As much as I love our lawyercolleagues, you know that is.
(36:34):
What tends to happen is thatthere is no overall direction
that says this is what fairer is, and now get to the table and
negotiate, understanding thisand yeah, that's what I most
like to change and there arepockets of solutions, of ways
that you can divorce that doaddress those, but commonly
(36:56):
we're not quite in a place wherewe we get that out on the table
in the first instance, thrashit out, make sure everybody's
really clear about how thesethings work, and then negotiate.
It kind of just all gets a bitmessy.
Tamsin Caine (37:10):
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree.
And that spreadsheet quiteoften has valuations of things
that he's decided are the valuesof them.
So, especially with complexinvestments, you know you look
at VCTs or EISs like, oh well,I've decided that's worth this
amount.
Like, you can't just decidewhat things are worth, and it
(37:35):
does make it incredibly tricky,doesn't it, for negotiating.
My ideal would be because yousaid this right at the beginning
and it's something that Ireally agree with is that
marriage is a contract.
This is a contract negotiationto change the contract of
marriage to a contract ofdivorce and set all the
(37:58):
boundaries and so on on thetable.
What I'd really love is, whenpeople are getting married, that
they understand what thatcontract means, that these
assets that are going to be inthis partnership because
essentially that's what this is,it's a partnership those assets
(38:19):
doesn't matter that you'rethere in your name or they're in
your name they are still goingto be marital assets and they
they still form part of theassets of the partnership, and I
think there's such a massivelack of understanding around
that, if we could, we couldchange that right at the
beginning, feel like it wouldmake it easier right at the end
(38:42):
when we're involved in trying tounpick people's mindsets.
Ceri Griffiths (38:47):
I think that would be a game changer.
For sure, People go into itaware of what they've agreed on
and that's yeah.
Tamsin Caine (38:54):
It'd be great, wouldn't it, it'd be great.
I mean that is I guess that'sthe idea of a prenup, or even a
postnup is to get that out inthe first place, and it's a
shame.
I know it's coming in more inthe UK but it still seems to be.
Even though more people aregetting them, I still think it's
(39:15):
a very small proportion of thepopulation, proportion of the
population and it feels like Ihad somebody say to me the other
day oh, they're asking me toget a prenup and that just feels
wrong and it's like no, I saythis is absolutely the time to
be talking about money and how,how you might divide it, because
at the moment we still loveeach other and you're thinking
(39:36):
in terms of this not going to bethe thing, and that's a far
better time to do it than thanwhen things got wrong absolutely
.
Ceri Griffiths (39:45):
Um, there's some really interesting research at
their own prenups by SharonThompson, who's a academic at
Cardiff University.
Um, and I think that'd be youknow, if you are going down that
path, that'd be well worthreading because there are some
really big risks to the samepopulation.
Um, around prenups, and gettingthe right advice again is just
(40:07):
so essential so that we don'tcreate a future imbalance
through naivety and through lackof knowledge
Tamsin Caine (40:16):
yeah, absolutely no, it is.
It's massively important.
Um, if, if you were, um, if youwere talking to somebody for
the for the first time, who whowas feeling in this space, but
they they hadn't done anythingyet, so they'd come to speak to
(40:40):
you but they hadn't separated,but it felt like things were not
right in the marriage, but theyalso felt that they're going to
get like everything thrown atthem if they, if they leave or
if they do anything about it.
What would your advice be?
Ceri Griffiths (40:59):
So the first thing we need to be really
mindful of is safety.
You know that's the first thingthat will be in my mind is just
trying to understand and assessthe safety of the situation.
Um, you know, 95 of domesticabuse cases have economic abuse,
and so it's being aware of ofwhat the fallout that could be,
(41:23):
and actually the person mostlikely to know what that could
look like is the person sittingin front of you.
They have a good idea of whattriggers and what responses and
how that looks.
So the first thing in my mindwould be safety and the next
thing would would always be okay.
What emotional support is thisperson needing?
And I will typically shareInstagram accounts of really
(41:44):
good divorce coaches, narcissismcoaches, so that they can go
and get some research andhopefully reach out to some of
these people as well and getsome emotional resilience around
that decision to leave as well.
And then we need to think abouttheir financial preparedness
and what, if any, steps we mightbe able to take to create a
(42:06):
little bit of leverage and alittle bit of safety financially
if they were to leave, and it'stricky depending on where their
money goes into and whathappens with it.
So things that I haverecommended to clients in the
past is to, if they're, if theirex can see everything that they
(42:27):
buy, you know, if they're inthe circumstance where they just
get given a credit card or theyjust have access to a joint
account and that's it.
Um, then then and this is whereI think people don't really
appreciate how tough things arefor women in high net worth
divorce.
These are literallymillionaires who I am saying go
and buy Asda gift cards so thatyou can feed your kids.
(42:50):
Should he cut off all access tomoney and so, on a weekly shop,
they start to buy gift cards sothat they then have access to
some cash, access to somethingto able to feed themselves,
their children, a little bit ofemergency fund if there is the
ability to.
And he has less of a line ofsight, so maybe they have money
(43:11):
coming from him, but it goesinto their sole account.
It is about, okay, prioritizinga little bit of what they're
spending, how and why, so theycan again build up some sort of
contingency, and then alsoreally getting some legal advice
very early on so that they canunderstand how they might be
able to access some fundingshould this happen.
And we talked earlier aboutkind of where might money come
(43:34):
from?
Friends, family, who are thepeople that they might be able
to lean on, and ultimately justtrying to understand how, in as
much detail as possible, howthis might play out, what he
might do, and then strategically, what they could do to offset
that.
(43:56):
What that means is that often,when you are making decisions
about your separation, youaren't necessarily as upfront,
you don't necessarily point thefinger.
It's not going to be one inwhich you feel vindicated.
You know a separation where youturn around and say you've done
(44:17):
this and you've done this andyou're awful at this and I hate
you and I don't ever want to bein the same room.
You know, actually, if you knowthat person well, there are
often ways that you can positionwhy you are separating.
That makes them still feel ontop and that's important.
Depending on what the dynamicis.
(44:39):
There are certain personalitytypes and if you can be aware of
those, you can create anoutcome that is linked to them.
So certain personality typeswant to be seen as the knight in
shining armor, want to be seenas, you know, just the person
who's just doing the best forhis family.
(44:59):
You know, you know what anabsolute icon.
Look how amazing they've done.
And so there are ways that youcan strategically make that
happen, even if it just cuts youto the soul because it's.
You know, it's really tough tolet somebody stand on that
podium and say what a brilliantjob they're doing when you know
(45:20):
the truth of what that marriagehas been like, but if you can
use it to your advantage.
So there's all this explorationand kind of thinking about it
working with narcissism coaches,working with divorce coaches,
and just trying to create astrategy that's actually going
to lead you to a place whereyou're most likely to get a good
outcome.
What about you, tam?
(45:42):
Would you be doing anythingdifferent there?
Tamsin Caine (45:45):
um, I mean, some of those ideas are incredible
buying gift cards just want tojust never cross my mind.
But I absolutely, absolutelylove that, I think.
I think the the only additionalthing would be to get them to
go and see a lawyer as well,because quite often I will meet
(46:11):
people who haven't yet exploredthe legal side of things and
actually I think it's importantthat they have that quiet
conversation with a lawyer, thatthey start to gain an
understanding of what theprocess might look like, what
options they've got forresolving this, how are they
going to be happy to be in thesame room?
(46:33):
If not, what options are thereavailable?
And I think, just exploringthat, because it feels like I
know we're talking about powerimbalances, but knowledge is
definitely power and the moreyou equip yourself with the
knowledge of what's going tocome, the less scary it might
(46:53):
feel.
Ceri Griffiths (46:54):
I think yeah, and actually on that knowledge
base I would encourage, ifyou're in this place, you just
need to gain so much knowledge,not just about finances, but
about personality types andunderstanding why it's not you
that's so important for your ownself-worth.
Um, yeah, but so understandingtheir personality type, because
(47:17):
there are these little windowsof opportunity that we need to
take and if we don't grasp them,things can really spiral
Tamsin Caine (47:25):
yeah, absolutely, and quite often you've been
selected by this other personbecause of your lovely
personality type, because you'reempathetic, because of your
kindness, and those people.
Those are the people that arechosen by other people who have
(47:46):
controlling behaviours, who havenarcissistic tendencies, and
that's hard to it's hard to hearbecause it's hard to get your
head around what you've beengoing through, but actually
there are some positives fromthat perspective.
Get your head around whatyou've been going through and it
you know, but, but actuallythere are some positives from
that perspective.
It's about the person that theperson that you are.
(48:07):
Um, we're coming to the end ofour chat.
I'm very sad to say, because Ifeel like we could probably talk
about this, that I was on end.
Um, is there anything that youwant to add to what we've said?
Ceri Griffiths (48:20):
I really enjoyed this chat.
I think it has.
I think it's been a really deepand unusual direction that
we've gone in, and I like thefact we've just been natural and
I suppose what I wouldencourage is for those listening
to go and follow you and gofollow me on Instagram, because
we're both about educating andwe're both about raising
(48:43):
awareness and knowledge, andhaving those spaces where you
are getting those little dropsof knowledge could make all the
difference in your journey
Tamsin Caine (48:52):
yeah, absolutely.
And and also to look for thepeople that we follow who have,
you know, who have really usefulinformation you know, go and go
and look at and you know, maybeyou need to do it discreetly,
you know, but but maybe umfollow some of the divorce
(49:12):
coaches that we follow becausebecause they are, are fabulous.
You know some of the women'scharities.
There are plenty of charitiesalso on domestic abuse for men
as well.
Find out who your localdomestic abuse charity is.
Most local areas have their owndomestic abuse.
You can Google it.
You can find that out.
You can Google it privately ifthere's a safety issue.
(49:38):
And just before we disappear tomention there is a 24-hour
domestic abuse helpline and ifyou need it, use it.
You may have to wait a whilebecause they are sadly very,
very busy, but your safetyshould come first.
So please, please, get help ifyou need it.
Thank you, Ceri, so much.
That was an absolutelyfantastic conversation.
(50:01):
I've very much enjoyed it.
Thank you for joining me, thankyou very much and thank you for
watching or listening and ifyou have enjoyed it and you do
find this useful, please do giveus a five star rating, because
it helps us to get our podcastout to even more people.
(50:28):
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed thatepisode of the Smart Divorce
Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website,
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onapple podcasts or on on Spotify
and you wouldn't mind leaving usa lovely five star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
(50:49):
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called Separation, divorceand Dissolution UK.
Please do go on to Facebook,search up the group, and we'd be
(51:11):
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
, so we're going to be talkingto those who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpedyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:55):
I am very happy to be joinedagain on the podcast by the
lovely Ceri Griffiths, who's afabulous friend of mine, and she
is also a divorce financialplanner, but she works
exclusively with women who aredivorcing millionaires.
So I'm going to let her tellyou a lot more about herself,
(01:16):
because she's award-winning.
She is an absolute superstar inthis area.
So thank you for joining me,Ceri, and do you want to tell
our audience a little bit moreabout you and what you do?
Ceri Griffiths (01:27):
oh, thank you for having me on and thank you
for the lovely introduction andjust thank you for everything
you do in this space.
I love how much support thatyou give to everybody watching,
so big, big advocate of yours aswell, Tam.
So, talking about me and ourfriendship actually, because,
Tam, you are a big reason that Ihave friends in this space and
you started all, so I'm so, sograteful for that um, but let's
(01:49):
talk about um, a little bitabout me and let's talk a little
bit about what I do.
So, yeah, I work exclusivelywith women who are divorcing
millionaires and specificallywhere there's a power imbalance,
that's where I really um feelthat I add the most value and
make the most difference to myclients.
So I'll typically work withclients where their ex is in a
(02:11):
really high-flying role like aCEO or private equity manager,
and they are feeling that thereis an imbalance and there's some
fear and some worry around that.
I hold narcissismqualifications, financial abuse
qualifications and I'm part of aworking party led by Resolution
(02:32):
on economic abuse and theimpact it has on financial
remedy proceedings, and that issomething that I have been part
of now to help create some moreawareness around how these
things specifically show upduring divorce and trying to
create some change from the toplevel about how the legal
(02:59):
proceedings actually recogniseand adapt to what we now are
clearer on than previously,because economic abuse, coercive
control weren't necessarilythings that we massively
understood and as we understandthem more, it's about adapting
and changing and creating moreawareness of that.
Tamsin Caine ,Yeah,.
(03:20):
We've had Olivia Pearcey Piercyalready in this series, so she
talks a fair bit about the workthat your committee are doing
and about the report that, aswe're recording, this has not
been released and it's still topsecret but by the time this
(03:44):
episode comes out, it will beavailable and it'll be in the
show notes of Olivia's episode.
If you want to go back and havea look at that, that would be
brilliant.
And Olivia does talk a bitabout the report, although not
in detail because, as I say,it's all top secret, as we're
talking today.
So we're going to talk a bitabout the power imbalances that
(04:09):
you were talking about before.
So, in terms of the powerimbalances, what do they look
like in terms of relationshipsand how they show themselves in
divorce?
Ceri Griffiths veryIt's very and each couple will
have their own personal dynamicand sometimes there'll be a
power imbalance, but a reallynatural, normal one that can be
(04:34):
easily resolved through someeducation.
And you know, as we develop ourrelationships, it is common for
one party to take over thingsthat they are stronger in prefer
and another party to havehandle other parts.
So within marriages, a powerimbalance often does occur in a
really normal, natural, nothingto be scared about way.
(04:57):
But there are times when thatactually evolves into a place
where there is a realdisadvantage to one party during
the marriage and then as thatmarriage is dissolved and as
they try to rebuild their newlives.
And how it shows up is verymuch a subtle layering of
(05:18):
different elements.
And what I would say is that myclients don't phone me up saying
there's a power imbalance in mymarriage and I would like your
help.
You know it's not necessarilyat the forefront of their minds,
so what they are thinking andwhat they are feeling is
outmatched partner or theirformer partner has more
(05:42):
knowledge, more experience, moreconfidence, not just on money
but also on negotiations andjust in being in a fairly
corporate scenario, which adivorce is.
You know, essentially it's acontract that we're dissolving
and creating a new contract atthe end of, and so there's this
(06:03):
sense of being outmatched andthere's this sense of being very
ill-equipped and unprepared.
So they create the feelingsthat my clients typically have
are fear, worry and lack ofability, and they are seeking
some ways to be able to makesome decisions and feel that
(06:26):
they have a line of sight on thechoices that are being asked to
makeTamsin Caine
yeah, no, I think I think thatand that doesn't just occur in I
.
I know ..
you specialize in working with,with millionaires and and very
wealthy couples, um, but thesepower imbalances can, can, can
occur in lots of different typesof relationships and, you know,
(06:50):
it's not always the superwealthy.
There are power imbalances inother types of relationships as
well.
I'm interested in the powerimbalance that you for.
For me I kind of feel powerimbalance that is like I don't
(07:10):
feel that that sounds like agood thing at any point in the,
at any point in any relationship, and I'm sort of interested
that you kind of feel that thatcan be quite normal and natural.
I'm interested to sort ofexplore that a little bit,
because it feels like powerimbalance feels to me?
(07:31):
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think what is important isthat we don't scare people into
thinking that there's somethingin their marriage that is wrong
because one party is managingthe money and the other party is
not necessarily involved inthat side of things.
Now I strongly believe thateverybody should understand how
(07:51):
money works, understand whatthey've got, understand what
they owe and know what theirlife, you know their plan looks
like.
But it is still a really commonthing to happen, and that
doesn't mean that something iswrong, and so that's the point
that I was making is that don'tpanic if you don't feel that you
(08:11):
understand or know all of thosethings.
It doesn't mean that there iseconomic abuse.
That imbalance is a reallycommon thing.
That happens.
We play to strengths, I think,particularly when you have young
children and there are so manyplates that are being spun.
A lot of the time it's justaround efficiencies and trying
to keep the household running,when you are doing so many
(08:32):
different things and there aretimes and spaces as your
children grow for that dynamicto change.
And I encourage people tochange that dynamic, because it
does mean that you are morelikely to feel confident and to
feel prepared as your marriageprogresses if you are also
(08:53):
involved in those decisions andyou can bring a lot to the table
.
You know that money is not justabout performance and growth,
and different perspectives onhow money should be treated is a
really important part of yourfinancial reviews with your
financial planner.
So for those of you who do havefinancial planners or partners
(09:13):
have financial planners you knowvery much should be a
roundtable group of you talkingabout what does the money need
and how is it going to look, andnot just how has it performed
over the last year.
Tamsin Caine (09:26):
Absolutely with you on that.
I think you're spot on.
You know, it's totally normalfor one person to look after the
money.
Ideally, both are involved and,as you say, craig, if there's a
financial planner, you shouldboth be seeing them.
It should not be one person'sfinancial planner.
(09:47):
It's something we insist onwhen we work with couples.
I think it's the word powerthat makes me go oh no, that's
bad, because if somebody's usingtheir skills and knowledge and
so on to create a powerimbalance and it feels like a
power imbalance, I think for methat's that's where there's an
(10:10):
issue and if, if you feel thatit's a, it's being used as power
, that's probably the time toaddress.
Actually, can you tell me aboutthe money, where it is, what
we've got because, and then ifthere's a reluctant to do that,
then maybe there might be.
Ceri Griffiths (10:31):
yeah, I agree with you, Tam, absolutely it's
knowledge im balance rather thana power imbalance that I'm
describing, and the powerimbalance comes as that dynamic
gets deeper and as the economicabuse comes to light.
for sure,
Tamsin Caine (10:48):
yeah, and I think that's that's the issue that
you're dealing with regularlywith your divorcing clients and
and in the same with me, youknow it's it is this having a
control over the other person,having power over the other
person, having power over theother person and using that to
(11:10):
destroy their confidence, todestroy their ability to
negotiate on behalf ofthemselves in that situation.
So talk to me about how youhelp, because I can.
You know if you, if you'refeeling I mean you're all
everybody is fearful in divorce.
(11:31):
You know divorce creates fear.
Naturally, if you're alsoexperiencing this power,
imbalance and somebody elsehaving control over you, I can
only imagine what those peopleare going through.
So so how do you help?
Where do you start?
Ceri Griffiths (11:50):
yeah, so I have a four-step process called wise.
It's a methodology that isspecifically designed to help
ensure that the people who arefeeling outmatched and
ill-equipped are able to getback onto a level playing field.
Um, the work that I'm doing isis financial planning.
There's an element of itfeeling like coaching, but I
(12:12):
think, alongside what you and Ido, tam, we also need to be
really mindful that the rolethat divorce coaches play and
how important that is when we'vegot this paradigm as well.
Um, and so a lot of what I'mdoing is also linking up with
their divorce coach so that theyhave this arms around them
approach of of having allelements supporting them, so
(12:35):
that they can get back to aplace where they can negotiate
and they do understand and theycan make some decisions.
So, in terms of why, the firstone is wellness and that's
making sure that there is anunderstanding of everything that
is on the table, that there isnothing that seems obscure or
isn't transparent.
And for my clients, that's abit of a journey, because how
(12:57):
high net worth individuals earnis not always transparent.
It is complex and even for themost financially literate people
, it's a difficult thing tonegotiate and understand and
navigate and understand thatmean.
So that first part is very muchlinked in with what the legal
team are doing and getting areally clear set of disclosure,
(13:21):
knowing what the disclosuremeans, asking the right
questions.
So we get to a point wherewe're like, ok, we understand
the status quo and the clientreally understands the status
quo, the status quo and theclient really understands the
status quo.
The second part is intent, andthis is about making sure that
there is some space created formy client to think about what a
full and beautiful life lookslike for her and to really gain
(13:44):
some depth behind that.
So it isn't just I want to keepthe house, I want to keep
things stable for the children,that we get beyond those initial
reactive statements and to aplace where she is able to
picture herself living her bestlife.
And I think it's a really.
For me, it's one of the mostrewarding parts, because what we
(14:06):
tend to uncover is that itisn't about the material things.
Because what we tend to uncoveris that it isn't about the
material things and I think,where you have had a lot of luck
for a lot of wealth, it alsogives you perspective on what
you truly value, and so we spenda lot of time in that intent
phase and ultimately we reducesome costings from now until age
(14:27):
100.
But just for me and the client,we don't use them in the legal
proceedings.
From now to age 100, they changewhen the children leave home.
They change in early retirement, late retirement and we really
get a sense of how much life isgoing to cost in the, in the way
that she's playing out, in theway that she's thinking and
she's dreaming.
It's a space that she can bereally honest because she's not
(14:48):
having to think strategicallyabout well, if I position I need
this much, then they mightnegotiate me down.
It's just a really honest space, her and I and we're working
out what does that actually cost?
And that intense phase thengives us a benchmark and when we
get to the next stage, which isstress test, what we're doing
in stress test is we are lookingat any proposals that her legal
(15:12):
team or his legal team mightmake or that they might create a
mediation or round table, andwe're seeing how that plays
against her ideal life, seeingwhere the gaps are, we're seeing
where we could be creative,we're seeing if it's enough and
what that allows the client todo is actually make decisions
(15:33):
with context, decide toprioritise what is important to
them.
You know we don't always findthat our clients are looking for
the biggest settlement.
What they're looking for is asettlement that works in an
amicable end, and so it givesher that ability to say yeah,
(15:53):
I'll accept that, even if herlegal team are saying you could
get so much more.
What it does is allow her tomake a choice of all the things
that are important to her aboutthis separation yes, the money
is important, but maybe therelationship with that ex is
important, maybe therelationship with their dad and
her viewpoints on that areimportant.
It allows her to weigh up allof those things and make those
(16:16):
decisions.
We do it using cashflowforecasting, so it's a tool that
allows us to show you visuallywhat could happen and then see
if there are some solutions thatwe can come up with or if there
is enough.
And then the last stage isEvolve and in and in evolve, we
are preparing clients to makethe financial decisions that
they need to.
(16:36):
So this stage is abouteducation around how charges
work on investments, howinvestments work in general, the
different varieties you know,sustainable investing all the
things that you would have ifyou had been in that world
during your marriage.
But because you haven't,because you haven been in that
world during your marriage, butbecause you haven't, because you
haven't had that exposure, it'sjust preparing you because my
clients are going to get a biglump sum and so when they get 2
(16:59):
million land in their bankaccount, it's like, okay, here's
all the stuff that you need toknow to make a decision so that
you know how to move forwardwith that.
So that's what I do, so that'sthe process, that's the
methodology, but essentiallywhat I do.
So that's the process, that'sthe methodology, but essentially
you know what we do, tam is, weare that sounding board for our
clients, aren't we?
We are the people that is a thatare able to hold a really safe
(17:19):
space to listen and, I think, toreally hear our clients deeply,
which they don't get often intheir legal meetings because
obviously they're timed andthere's so many other things
that need to become decisionsmade.
So we give them that space tothink deeply, be heard, be
understood, to soundboard withthem, to challenge with them.
You know, I think a really bigthing that I do for my clients
(17:42):
is actually help them seewhether the decisions they're
making are in line with whatwe've worked out.
Their values are in the intentphase and if they're not,
actually say to them well, whyare you now saying this?
What is it that's happening?
Is this an emotional response?
Does this actually links forwhat you want and that and kind
of create that space, um, froman economic abuse point of view?
(18:03):
So my clients very much arelooking to have an expert on
their side because they arefeeling vulnerable and that's
not a word they would use, butthey are feeling disadvantaged
and so from an economic abusepoint of view, they might not
have identified as economicabuse, we might never use that
word.
(18:23):
I probably will speak about itwith their legal team and, you
know, kind of give them a headsup on things that happened.
But we would navigate that anddecide how that's going to
progress.
But I will be that person byher side so that every step of
the way, she feels empowered andable to position what she needs
(18:43):
and why and to accept what ishappening without regret,
without thinking um that that hehas in any way manipulated the
situation, and that's good forboth parties.
That means that both partiescan move on comfortable and
happy that what they've come tois is the right thing for them
(19:04):
as a couple
Tamsin Caine (19:05):
yeah, yeah, no, absolutely so.
Do you think that sometimes yourclients come to you not aware,
like aware that they're notfeeling as strong as the other
party, that there might be apower imbalance?
But that word abuse I know yousaid you don't necessarily use
(19:31):
it with your clients and and thesame here, unless they come to
me with it.
But do you think they'vealready uncovered that there is
that?
Or do you see the red flags andflag it with the legal team and
perhaps there's not actuallythe awareness there?
Ceri Griffiths (19:48):
I think there's a mix, absolutely there's a mix
of people who who have beendoing some research and trying
to understand what's happenedand by the time they come to me,
they're already aware of someof the red flags.
We might uncover more thingsthat they hadn't noticed were
unusual.
And then there are those whojust have a sense that something
(20:09):
isn't right and they can't puttheir finger on it.
You know so.
For example, I've got a clientthat I spoke to this week and
they are separated but they'restill living together in the
home.
The income is around 20,000 amonth, so it's.
I know that's not our typical,you know population don't end,
but but in this scenario it'simportant to point that out.
(20:30):
So the income is £20,000 amonth and the relationship has
been failing for a period oftime and she needs to move out
for a number of reasons.
She needs to move out, he'sgoing to stay in the family home
and he is proposing that shehas £1,500 a month to rent and
(20:52):
to live on.
And so immediately there's thissense oh, ok, from £20,000, why
£1,500?
How does that work?
Kind of unpicking that, and herlegal team will take that
forward.
But what we uncovered and whatwe've been uncovering during
this picture is that she had nomoney of her own, but she did.
At one point, she had her ownflat at one point and when the
(21:13):
flat sold, all the money gotintermingled and it's you can
just see these gradual thingsthat have happened.
That means that she lostfinancial independence, and it's
only when we're kind of blackand white, putting it down and
saying, okay, so where is this,where is that, where does your
money, money go?
And so all of her income goesinto a joint account that he
(21:35):
sees her spending um, and thereis no privacy, there is no um
ability for her to get expertise, to get the assistance that she
needs, without it being flaggedto him.
And so while I am not sittingthere because I think one of the
difficulties we've got if I sitthere and say this is economic
abuse I could put like a realbomb into that separation.
(21:59):
You know, something that maybeis ticking along fairly amicably
could blow up and that couldhave a huge number of knock-on
effects.
But I also need to prepare herand position her so that she
understands the bigger picture.
And what tends to happen is whena client is downloading to you
(22:19):
and they're saying it out loudin one space, like in one period
of time, the red flags becomeapparent to them, like they seem
to self-identify themselves,and then we just work through.
How does this look and what doesthis mean?
And I think one of the biggestimpacts that economic or
financial abuse has isself-worth and self-confidence,
(22:43):
because, alongside having noaccess to funds or independent
access to funds, is a sense thatyou are not good with money,
that you are not worthy of money, that you don't have the same
ability as somebody else, andalso a lack of a network and a
lack of an ability to rebuildyour financial worth because of
(23:09):
the circumstances that lead youto to have this.
So it's really typical for womento find themselves in the high
net worth space, specificallyfind themselves not in work.
Often they are having reallysuccessful careers and
university educated, reallyreally doing well.
They agree that actuallythey're going to focus on his
(23:32):
career because it involvestravel, it involves an awful lot
for somebody to get to a CEOlevel of kind of within a
corporation and that means thatthey over time lose any
connections, any network theyhave and it's really hard after
20 years of not being in thatspace to walk back into it years
(23:55):
I've not been in that space towalk back into it.
So there is a real sense of umnot being able to pick yourself
back up, and that's frightening.
Tamsin Caine (23:59):
Yeah, absolutely, and to, to think about, and, and
there is a level of expectationthat that they will walk back
in the courts, that they will beable to walk back into a career
and pick up where they left off.
20 years ago I mean, 20 yearsago, my mobile phone did not
look like the one that'scurrently sat on my desk.
(24:21):
We weren't having calls likethis.
The workspace is so differentin that period of time and that
feels like a scary thing toexpect on top of all of the
other things that we've talkedabout as well, isn't it?
Ceri Griffiths (24:39):
it is on top of, isn't it?
You know, on top, yeah, thefact that you are massively in a
place of grief.
There's been so much ending somuch and there is so much that
needs to be done to rebuildthese people's self-worth and
self-confidence, and so walkingstraight back into a career that
, like you say, they've been 20years out of is a huge, huge ask
(25:01):
, a huge ask.
Tamsin Caine (25:02):
Yeah, it's crazy.
I'm interested, um, you saidabout um them not having
independent money and it beingdifficult for them to therefore
get the professional advice thatthey need, and and absolutely
agree, say it all the time,unfortunately um, how, how do
(25:23):
they then move forward from thatspace, because that's a really
difficult position.
As you've said, they need ateam around them.
They need a divorce coach, theymay well need therapy, they
need a financial planner, theyabsolutely need a legal team and
their exes, who are thepowerful CEO or whatever, are
(25:47):
going to ensure that they havegot all of those things in place
.
They will have the best legalteam, etc.
How do you deal with that?
Ceri Griffiths (25:57):
they are often, and again, I think this is a
high net worth scenario.
But there are often funds thatthey don't know are in their own
name.
So if their ex has been workingwith a financial planner, what
we often uncover is that thereare ISAs that they have
contributed to every year intheir name and they didn't
necessarily know, and obviouslythat then becomes money that
(26:20):
they can get their hands on andcan create some freedom and a
little bit of a breathing space,which is useful.
There are a variety of ways myclients actually received money
from their exes and I would saythe most typical is that there
is an amount that is paid tothem into a joint or into a sole
(26:42):
account that covers runningcosts, that covers kind of life
etc.
And it is not uncommon for myclients over time to have just
gradually created a little bitof a separate fund, and so
sometimes there are smallamounts of money to one side.
But it is often typical that myclients need to, in the first
(27:05):
instance, meet with a lawyer whowill often do it secretly, you
know, no, no need for them toactually confirm anything and,
and in the first instance, thefirst meeting without any cost,
so without any audit trail andin those meetings what you can
establish is how does that legalteam need to be paid and
(27:26):
litigation funding, whichobviously - do they still
sponsor you Tam?
Tamsin Caine (27:31):
They are and the Ampla finance do support the
podcast.
Yeah, absolutely.
Ceri Griffiths (27:34):
Yeah, and so litigation funding, which I'm
sure you have done episodes on,are a really normal way for my
clients to then access funds,and essentially the way that it
works is that, looking at thepotential assets in the divorce,
the litigation fund, thelitigation lender, will take a
view on how likely they are toget a return back on lending you
(27:58):
the money.
You know how much of a risk itmight be to them and with that
in line, they'll put together apersonalized contract for you
with whatever interest theythink is worth the risk, and you
would pay as you draw thatmoney down and that will give
you access to a pot of money,not just for legal fees but also
for lifestyle, so that you cancontinue during this period.
(28:21):
There are other ways, and thisis, I suppose, more of a legal
question, because you canactually apply for interim
maintenance.
You know there can be ordersput in place for certain assets
to be passed to you.
I see they're less common.
I see litigation funding farmore than the other processes
and actually a big thing thatdoes happen is friends and
(28:43):
family, because those who havepeople close to them who have
some wealth will often be reallygenerous with that as well, and
that can create some wiggleroom and those people can get
repaid at a later date as well
Tamsin Caine (28:58):
yeah, absolutely no, I think that's it.
I think that's a reallyimportant thing, because it is
important to get advice and toget the proper advice, and
sometimes people are like, well,it has to come out that joint
account, I can't get that adviceproperly and professionally and
I'm going to rely on somethingcompletely different, and the
(29:21):
power imbalance gets even worsethen, doesn't it?
Ceri Griffiths (29:25):
yeah, absolutely , and I think one of the big
risks to this population thehigh net worth.
But in general, where there'sthis people fighting like you
get this trope that women inthis situation are gold diggers.
After everything that they canget, you know that they are
(29:46):
really going to take him to thecleaners, and what I see in
reality is the absolute opposite.
Because of the dynamic that hasbuilt up, where they are
lacking the confidence and theself-worth and the fear is there
.
They want to keep thingsamicable for the kids and
they're just wanting to move on.
There's a massive risk thatwomen settle for far less than
(30:08):
is fair and for far less thanworks.
And that is, I think, one ofthe big risks of not getting
advice and big risks of notgetting support, not having a
divorce coach alongside yourfinancial planner so that you
can have the context of what isimportant to you and how this
actually plays out.
And I think it's a really bigrisk in those lower net worth
(30:31):
divorces as well, because we areoften, you know, the smallest
amount of money could make alife-changing difference at that
point as well.
And having some expertise, somestrategic expertise at the right
points could have such animpact
Tamsin Caine (30:48):
yeah, definitely.
I think that one of the thingsthat really winds me up is that
that they took me for everythingI had, like no, they didn't,
because that's not.
If that was possible, it's not.
You know, there's a, there's a,there's a um a spectrum of, of
(31:11):
fair settlements, yes, but butnobody's taking everybody,
anybody, for everything they'vegot.
And I think there's amisunderstanding about assets
and whose name they're in andtherefore who they belong to,
and particularly pensions, andyou must see this all the time,
(31:32):
as I do that.
Well, he said I mustn't goafter his pension, or she said I
mustn't go after her pension.
And I should add, this happensboth ways.
I know we're talking aboutwomen today, but but that's
because Ceri specializes with inworking with women, but it
definitely happens both ways.
Well, I work with men and womenand I've seen it both ways
(31:52):
around.
Ceri Griffiths (31:53):
But it is three times more likely to happen.
Oh sorry, I was gonna say it'sthree times more likely to
happen to women, as researchshows, and one in five women
will experience this type ofabuse.
But yeah, it does happen bothways, and obviously I only work
with women.
Tamsin Caine (32:09):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think I'm.
I'm slightly sceptical aboutthe stats.
Only from the perspective thatI think it's less likely that
men will come forward.
That only from the perspectivethat I think it's less likely
that men will come forward thanwomen will come forward.
So I'm sure that the one infive women is absolutely spot on
(32:29):
.
I'm less sure about the threetimes as many women.
I think men are really lesslikely to come forward just
because this.
This feels like a, anembarrassment, and actually I
see that in the women that Iwork with.
They're they're mortified thatthey've let this happen and it
(32:49):
and it's not you, you've beencontrolled and coerced for many,
many years to get into thisposition.
This has been a strategic,ongoing layering for years and
years, and and there's notsomething that's shameful, but I
I do think we're getting to apoint where more women will be
(33:11):
prepared to come forward thanthe men, because I think they
feel even more shame about it.
But yeah, whether we everactually get to the bottom of
the, the realistics, that's whoknows.
Um, but yeah, what's your,what's your thought on on the,
the whole pensions thing andthat, that, that don't go after
(33:33):
thing, because that gold diggerthing does kind of feel it does
get thrown about it.
It's something that that ourclients feel isn't it.
Ceri Griffiths (33:43):
I think what's really interesting are those
words so don't go after hispension, and that you know
absolutely.
Um, I also think there's areally interesting dynamic here
around where, where adultchildren or, you know, late teen
children are in the mix of thisas well, and the stories and
(34:03):
the fear around what they'rebeing told.
You know, I have clients whosechildren are saying don't go
after dad's pension, why are yougoing after dad's pension?
And there's, you know, allthese complexities that come
into these decisions that leadwomen to settle and to make
decisions that aren't in theirbest financial interest.
(34:23):
And I agree with you.
I think as a society we don'thave the understanding of what
fair truly looks like.
And if we think about thepicture that you have around
equality versus equity, whereyou have three people looking
over a fence and there's threeboxes and one person might have
(34:45):
a higher box than the otherperson to all be able to look
over the fence and that's equal,they're all looking over the
fence.
Just because their box ishigher doesn't mean that they
are having an advantage, and Ithink that is something that is
quite tricky for a lot of peopleto get around.
So how things typicallytranspire for me is that a
(35:05):
client will have this sense thatsomething's not right.
You know this underlying gutfeeling, maybe not have labelled
it.
And then their ex has saidhere's a spreadsheet this is
everything we owe, here'severything we own.
This is what 50-50 looks like.
This is just like the most fair.
Let's not get lawyers involved.
Let's not waste our money.
We can be able, we can do thisnicely, and her gut feeling is
(35:28):
something's wrong, and that'show they often find me.
So I'll reach out and we'lllook at the spreadsheet.
And it isn't necessarily thatspreadsheet is unfair.
You know, if you took his logicand 50 50'd everything, okay,
often there are assets that heconsiders purely his.
You know genuinely in his heartthat pension is his.
(35:50):
Or in his heart, his long-termincentive plan is his.
It doesn't even make it ontothe spreadsheet.
In his heart, future bonuses,even though earned while they
were together, are his.
It doesn't make onto thatspreadsheet.
But also it doesn't address theability for them both to, in
his heart, future bonuses, eventhough earned while they were
together, are his.
It doesn't make onto thatspreadsheet.
But also it doesn't address theability for them both to look
over the fence, the ability forthem both to have an equal
(36:11):
chance at rebuilding theirpost-divorce lives, and that's a
real dynamic to change.
That's one of the hardest things.
Through divorce is to move amindset away from what somebody
thinks is fair to what actuallythe law is saying is fair, and
that's where a lot of money getswasted on legal fees.
As much as I love our lawyercolleagues, you know that is.
(36:34):
What tends to happen is thatthere is no overall direction
that says this is what fairer is, and now get to the table and
negotiate, understanding thisand yeah, that's what I most
like to change and there arepockets of solutions, of ways
that you can divorce that doaddress those, but commonly
(36:56):
we're not quite in a place wherewe we get that out on the table
in the first instance, thrashit out, make sure everybody's
really clear about how thesethings work, and then negotiate.
It kind of just all gets a bitmessy.
Tamsin Caine (37:10):
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree.
And that spreadsheet quiteoften has valuations of things
that he's decided are the valuesof them.
So, especially with complexinvestments, you know you look
at VCTs or EISs like, oh well,I've decided that's worth this
amount.
Like, you can't just decidewhat things are worth, and it
(37:35):
does make it incredibly tricky,doesn't it, for negotiating.
My ideal would be because yousaid this right at the beginning
and it's something that Ireally agree with is that
marriage is a contract.
This is a contract negotiationto change the contract of
marriage to a contract ofdivorce and set all the
(37:58):
boundaries and so on on thetable.
What I'd really love is, whenpeople are getting married, that
they understand what thatcontract means, that these
assets that are going to be inthis partnership because
essentially that's what this is,it's a partnership those assets
(38:19):
doesn't matter that you'rethere in your name or they're in
your name they are still goingto be marital assets and they
they still form part of theassets of the partnership, and I
think there's such a massivelack of understanding around
that, if we could, we couldchange that right at the
beginning, feel like it wouldmake it easier right at the end
(38:42):
when we're involved in trying tounpick people's mindsets.
Ceri Griffiths (38:47):
I think that would be a game changer.
For sure, People go into itaware of what they've agreed on
and that's yeah.
Tamsin Caine (38:54):
It'd be great, wouldn't it, it'd be great.
I mean that is I guess that'sthe idea of a prenup, or even a
postnup is to get that out inthe first place, and it's a
shame.
I know it's coming in more inthe UK but it still seems to be.
Even though more people aregetting them, I still think it's
(39:15):
a very small proportion of thepopulation, proportion of the
population and it feels like Ihad somebody say to me the other
day oh, they're asking me toget a prenup and that just feels
wrong and it's like no, I saythis is absolutely the time to
be talking about money and how,how you might divide it, because
at the moment we still loveeach other and you're thinking
(39:36):
in terms of this not going to bethe thing, and that's a far
better time to do it than thanwhen things got wrong absolutely
.
Ceri Griffiths (39:45):
Um, there's some really interesting research at
their own prenups by SharonThompson, who's a academic at
Cardiff University.
Um, and I think that'd be youknow, if you are going down that
path, that'd be well worthreading because there are some
really big risks to the samepopulation.
Um, around prenups, and gettingthe right advice again is just
(40:07):
so essential so that we don'tcreate a future imbalance
through naivety and through lackof knowledge
Tamsin Caine (40:16):
yeah, absolutely no, it is.
It's massively important.
Um, if, if you were, um, if youwere talking to somebody for
the for the first time, who whowas feeling in this space, but
they they hadn't done anythingyet, so they'd come to speak to
(40:40):
you but they hadn't separated,but it felt like things were not
right in the marriage, but theyalso felt that they're going to
get like everything thrown atthem if they, if they leave or
if they do anything about it.
What would your advice be?
Ceri Griffiths (40:59):
So the first thing we need to be really
mindful of is safety.
You know that's the first thingthat will be in my mind is just
trying to understand and assessthe safety of the situation.
Um, you know, 95 of domesticabuse cases have economic abuse,
and so it's being aware of ofwhat the fallout that could be,
(41:23):
and actually the person mostlikely to know what that could
look like is the person sittingin front of you.
They have a good idea of whattriggers and what responses and
how that looks.
So the first thing in my mindwould be safety and the next
thing would would always be okay.
What emotional support is thisperson needing?
And I will typically shareInstagram accounts of really
(41:44):
good divorce coaches, narcissismcoaches, so that they can go
and get some research andhopefully reach out to some of
these people as well and getsome emotional resilience around
that decision to leave as well.
And then we need to think abouttheir financial preparedness
and what, if any, steps we mightbe able to take to create a
(42:06):
little bit of leverage and alittle bit of safety financially
if they were to leave, and it'stricky depending on where their
money goes into and whathappens with it.
So things that I haverecommended to clients in the
past is to, if they're, if theirex can see everything that they
(42:27):
buy, you know, if they're inthe circumstance where they just
get given a credit card or theyjust have access to a joint
account and that's it.
Um, then then and this is whereI think people don't really
appreciate how tough things arefor women in high net worth
divorce.
These are literallymillionaires who I am saying go
and buy Asda gift cards so thatyou can feed your kids.
(42:50):
Should he cut off all access tomoney and so, on a weekly shop,
they start to buy gift cards sothat they then have access to
some cash, access to somethingto able to feed themselves,
their children, a little bit ofemergency fund if there is the
ability to.
And he has less of a line ofsight, so maybe they have money
(43:11):
coming from him, but it goesinto their sole account.
It is about, okay, prioritizinga little bit of what they're
spending, how and why, so theycan again build up some sort of
contingency, and then alsoreally getting some legal advice
very early on so that they canunderstand how they might be
able to access some fundingshould this happen.
And we talked earlier aboutkind of where might money come
(43:34):
from?
Friends, family, who are thepeople that they might be able
to lean on, and ultimately justtrying to understand how, in as
much detail as possible, howthis might play out, what he
might do, and then strategically, what they could do to offset
that.
(43:56):
What that means is that often,when you are making decisions
about your separation, youaren't necessarily as upfront,
you don't necessarily point thefinger.
It's not going to be one inwhich you feel vindicated.
You know a separation where youturn around and say you've done
(44:17):
this and you've done this andyou're awful at this and I hate
you and I don't ever want to bein the same room.
You know, actually, if you knowthat person well, there are
often ways that you can positionwhy you are separating.
That makes them still feel ontop and that's important.
Depending on what the dynamicis.
(44:39):
There are certain personalitytypes and if you can be aware of
those, you can create anoutcome that is linked to them.
So certain personality typeswant to be seen as the knight in
shining armor, want to be seenas, you know, just the person
who's just doing the best forhis family.
(44:59):
You know, you know what anabsolute icon.
Look how amazing they've done.
And so there are ways that youcan strategically make that
happen, even if it just cuts youto the soul because it's.
You know, it's really tough tolet somebody stand on that
podium and say what a brilliantjob they're doing when you know
(45:20):
the truth of what that marriagehas been like, but if you can
use it to your advantage.
So there's all this explorationand kind of thinking about it
working with narcissism coaches,working with divorce coaches,
and just trying to create astrategy that's actually going
to lead you to a place whereyou're most likely to get a good
outcome.
What about you, tam?
(45:42):
Would you be doing anythingdifferent there?
Tamsin Caine (45:45):
um, I mean, some of those ideas are incredible
buying gift cards just want tojust never cross my mind.
But I absolutely, absolutelylove that, I think.
I think the the only additionalthing would be to get them to
go and see a lawyer as well,because quite often I will meet
(46:11):
people who haven't yet exploredthe legal side of things and
actually I think it's importantthat they have that quiet
conversation with a lawyer, thatthey start to gain an
understanding of what theprocess might look like, what
options they've got forresolving this, how are they
going to be happy to be in thesame room?
(46:33):
If not, what options are thereavailable?
And I think, just exploringthat, because it feels like I
know we're talking about powerimbalances, but knowledge is
definitely power and the moreyou equip yourself with the
knowledge of what's going tocome, the less scary it might
(46:53):
feel.
Ceri Griffiths (46:54):
I think yeah, and actually on that knowledge
base I would encourage, ifyou're in this place, you just
need to gain so much knowledge,not just about finances, but
about personality types andunderstanding why it's not you
that's so important for your ownself-worth.
Um, yeah, but so understandingtheir personality type, because
(47:17):
there are these little windowsof opportunity that we need to
take and if we don't grasp them,things can really spiral
Tamsin Caine (47:25):
yeah, absolutely, and quite often you've been
selected by this other personbecause of your lovely
personality type, because you'reempathetic, because of your
kindness, and those people.
Those are the people that arechosen by other people who have
(47:46):
controlling behaviours, who havenarcissistic tendencies, and
that's hard to it's hard to hearbecause it's hard to get your
head around what you've beengoing through, but actually
there are some positives fromthat perspective.
Get your head around whatyou've been going through and it
you know, but, but actuallythere are some positives from
that perspective.
It's about the person that theperson that you are.
(48:07):
Um, we're coming to the end ofour chat.
I'm very sad to say, because Ifeel like we could probably talk
about this, that I was on end.
Um, is there anything that youwant to add to what we've said?
Ceri Griffiths (48:20):
I really enjoyed this chat.
I think it has.
I think it's been a really deepand unusual direction that
we've gone in, and I like thefact we've just been natural and
I suppose what I wouldencourage is for those listening
to go and follow you and gofollow me on Instagram, because
we're both about educating andwe're both about raising
(48:43):
awareness and knowledge, andhaving those spaces where you
are getting those little dropsof knowledge could make all the
difference in your journey
Tamsin Caine (48:52):
yeah, absolutely.
And and also to look for thepeople that we follow who have,
you know, who have really usefulinformation you know, go and go
and look at and you know, maybeyou need to do it discreetly,
you know, but but maybe umfollow some of the divorce
(49:12):
coaches that we follow becausebecause they are, are fabulous.
You know some of the women'scharities.
There are plenty of charitiesalso on domestic abuse for men
as well.
Find out who your localdomestic abuse charity is.
Most local areas have their owndomestic abuse.
You can Google it.
You can find that out.
You can Google it privately ifthere's a safety issue.
(49:38):
And just before we disappear tomention there is a 24-hour
domestic abuse helpline and ifyou need it, use it.
You may have to wait a whilebecause they are sadly very,
very busy, but your safetyshould come first.
So please, please, get help ifyou need it.
Thank you, Ceri, so much.
That was an absolutelyfantastic conversation.
(50:01):
I've very much enjoyed it.
Thank you for joining me, thankyou very much and thank you for
watching or listening and ifyou have enjoyed it and you do
find this useful, please do giveus a five star rating, because
it helps us to get our podcastout to even more people.
(50:28):
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed thatepisode of the Smart Divorce
Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website,
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onapple podcasts or on on Spotify
and you wouldn't mind leaving usa lovely five star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
(50:49):
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called Separation, divorceand Dissolution UK.
Please do go on to Facebook,search up the group, and we'd be
(51:11):
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
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